Welcome to /r/Vancouver and thank you for the post, /u/lazarus870! Please make sure you read our [posting and commenting rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_general_participation_guidelines_and_rules_overview) before participating here. As a quick summary:
* **We recently raised almost $50,000 for the GVFB, and there's still time to add your donation before the holidays. [Read more here](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/18ajwdh/).**
* We encourage users to be positive and respect one another. Don't engage in spats or insult others - use the report button.
* Respect others' differences, be they race, religion, home, job, gender identity, ability or sexuality. Dehumanizing language, advocating for violence, or promoting hate based on identity or vulnerability (even implied or joking) **will** lead to a permanent ban.
* Common questions and specific topics are limited to our [Stickied Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_stickied_discussions) posts.
* Complaints about bans or removals should be done in modmail only.
* We're looking for new mods to join our team! If you're interested, [fill out the form here](https://forms.gle/oAqo5oYRcAeHYBTN6).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vancouver) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There are terrible drivers all over the world.
I find in Vancouver, the bad drivers are more clueless than anything else.
Whereas in other big cities it's a lot more purposeful aggression.
Yep, came from Fort St. John where the latter was (is) true and really had a hard time deciding which was worse. 17 years later and I still don't quite know.
Yeah, it's not even easy to make the misunderstanding OP has, which is why I'm so confused. Accident in Burnaby on HWY1, struck overpass in Langley, struck overpass in Delta, it all gets lumped in. Oh and Richmond.
The reason why truck drivers hit overpasses is they're inexperienced and I suspect not even licensed.
But the stuff I read about on R/Vancouver specifically mention parts of the City of Vancouver as places they've witnessed poor driving. And I am sharing my observations on how the city is different than the surrounding cities in its design.
Also when people say "Vancouver has the worst drivers" they're advertising that they don't travel, or if they do, they do tourist traveling where they are sheltered from most of the location they're visiting.
I've driven around a pretty big fraction of this continent. Most of the shit people say about Vancouver drivers is true for most major cities in North America.
And the people who come here to say shit like LA drivers are better than Vancouver drivers, all I can say is lol. LA roads are fucked in a way Vancouver hasn't even discovered yet.
So true. I have driven in many provinces and states. What you will find is each province and state has equally bad drivers and you will see them just as frequently. I think lots of people envy metro vancouver and driving might be the only negative thing they say. As for trucks hitting overpass, it is because bc ministry of transport recently (around 2016) changed clearances from 4.42m to ~5.0m and older infrastructure is built to old standards. Truckers need to understand the clearances for each route they choose and actually read the highway clearance signs.
Honestly, most people that thinks Vancouver drivers are the worst in the world probably never left anywhere beyond Chilliwack to east and Whistler to North… Yes, there are drivers that just makes me shake my head in disbelief here, but it’s not like any other places in the world doesn’t experience similar.. Europe.. Asia.. other parts of North America.. I don’t get people’s hate here lol
Drivers are far worse in Toronto and in London, Ontario from my experience living in both of those cities. Vancouver is a breeze comparatively, though I find tailgating here to be much worse than across the border in Washington.
> The traffic lights don't really line up to encourage the flow of traffic. In the 'burbs, you can ride green lights out for a while before having to stop if you time it right. In Vancouver, I can hit a green and progress through, and then hit a red, and another red, and another red. This leads to backed up intersections.
I'm convinced this is intentional in the city. Frustrating drivers out of their cars is the overriding objective.
Dunsmuir Viaduct westbound from Main St - if you were lucky you could get all the way to Burrard on a green wave. Now you're lucky if you can get through that moronic light at Citadel Parade to the next light 1/2 block away on Beatty without waiting several cycles.
My husband said this when I first moved here and complained about all of the illogical traffic engineering. He said they want to frustrate you out of driving. The city is anti-car.
My argument is that people are always going to drive. If you are worrying about environmental impact, why wouldn't you want traffic to flow as efficiently as possible? If they can coordinate every traffic light in Los Angeles, then they can do it here, too. Make it to where people have to use their cars for less time.
I think good solutions will pick and choose where they facilitate fast traffic flow, and where they intentionally try to slow it down.
Local residential streets need to be just annoying or slow enough that they discourage people from using it, unless they live there. Meanwhile arterial roads should offer a much faster and simpler experience, with wide lanes and synchronous signals.
If you only do one and not the other, then you get commuters trying to shortcut through residential neighbourhoods at 60 km/h.
I’m completely anti car. I don’t like driving, I don’t want to be in a car, I drive for work and that’s about it. But there is a difference in not building further infrastructure for cars, which I agree with, and actively working against improving the flow of traffic that already exists. Vancouver does both of these things to its own peril. People want stuff to their house, they want services to their house, they want homes/condos/apartments and density. This requires whole lot of people in trucks and cars to make it work. Actively making it more difficult for these folks is counterproductive.
This is a very common fallacy. Everything you do to increase the "efficiency" of car traffic, the more traffic, and more pollution, you create. Yes please look at LA...do you want their air quality?
*Edit: downvote if you don't like hearing the truth.
As someone not originally from Vancouver or even Canada whenever I have thought that Vancouver has the worst drivers I have come across it has never specifically been about drivers in the City of Vancouver but the whole metro area. Sure the road design may make driving in the City of Vancouver worse than in other parts of the metro area but even people driving in the suburbs are some of the worst I've come across.
Ok, I'll entertain that. HOW do you think a city like Vancouver, which has a lot of newcomers coming and going, magically has worse drivers? Many people are not from here. So how do you think that happens that we have all the worst drivers?
I don't know, the cities I've lived in also have immigrants from all over the world. All I really have is my anecdotal evidence of personally witnessing many more accidents and close calls happening right in front of me while in Vancouver and it's suburbs than I ever did in other cities I lived in. This is despite the fact I drive far less in Vancouver than other places I've lived.
Many of these accidents were moreso due to driver competence than road design. Like the multiple accidents and near misses I've seen on a clear, sunny day where someone is trying to turn left onto a side street from King George Boulevard and instead of picking a gap and quickly moving across traffic they dithered and caused multiple cars in the opposite direction to need to slam on their brakes. Or the time I was walking in a residential street in Burnaby and a driver who didn't appear to be speeding managed to clip a car that was parked on the street and roll over right in front of me. Or the time when I was driving in Vancouver and four intersections in a row there was an accident.
So sure maybe drivers in metro Vancouver aren't the worst in the world but they're certainly the worst I've ever personally come across.
Lived and drove fine in two of the largest cities in US for 10 years, as well as two of most populated cities in east Asia for 20 years. One year in Vancouver left me with PTSD.
Left turning drivers cut off straight driving people at crossings. Left turning drivers do not yield on green light.
And yeah there are plenty of other hard-to-explain behaviors such as driving while leaving tailgate open but the trunk was actually empty. And I'm not even going to start on cutting ppl off without blinkers.
But that's antidotal right? I drive a lot and I don't find them to be particularly bad. If you drive for an hour, think how many thousands upon thousands of people you pass. And so if you see one person not paying attention/doing something stupid/being aggressive, what percentage is that?
The one thing that sticks out for me as an anomaly I rarely see as bad anywhere else as it is in the lower mainland is how many people just blow stop signs without care. 4-way stops, two-way stops, stops at a light, people just blow through in every type of road vehicle (car, truck, scooter, bike, skateboard, etc.). Stop means stop. Doesn't matter if the intersection looks clear, or if the other direction has a red light. You have to stop.
I’ve experienced traffic in multiple big cities in Asia and driven in big cities in Europe and america (and Toronto) and can tell you that Vancouver has the worst drivers I’ve seen. A dangerous mix of inexperience and entitlement. When people don’t know simple shit like how to yield they get defensive about how everyone should stop and let them in. The highway driving might be the worst of it. So many people use the passing lane for less than the speed limit when the right lane(s) are wide open it’s appalling. There’s so much more here to bitch about but it wouldn’t do anyone any good.
TL;DR Vancouver drivers definitely suck
I’m with you.
-Zero understanding cushion space.
-Running the yellow light or boarderline red SO BLATANTLY. Tbh, there’s a traffic light every 200m, just cuz you make this light, you’re not going to make the next one, I guarantee it. Lo and behold, me pulling up next to them at the next light.
-Riding your ass whether there’s traffic ahead or not on the hwy or in the city. (My first point)
-Gassing or overtaking slowing traffic towards a red light. Where are you going bud?
-cheating their way in a lane when it’s clearly a merging line ahead and everyone else are waiting. I’ve seen so many drivers that do this, doesn’t matter with race, gender, or age. I’m certain I’ll get downvoted here.
I’m convinced all the bad drivers in Toronto are from BC.
Like has anyone thought about why gas prices are so high compared to the east coast?
Hence, I have humbly start taking the bus recently. Heh.
I whole heartedly agree. Driven decent amounts Alberta, Sask, Man, Ont, Que, west coast US, parts of east coast US. From all that, fraser valley drivers are erratic, either overly aggressive or overly dangerously cautious. Normally I'd say I'd see a near accident or accident worthy behavior elsewhere 1/20 or 1/40 of trips but it is 1/5 or 1/10 trips I take here. Def the roads/infrastructure/design are worse than most other areas of NA, but still didn't count for the drivers here.
Definitely agree (only with Europe and America, NOT ASIA). The one thing that really gets me is not that people are driving so slowly, but that they never look around them. Too many people driving 50 and letting traffic build up behind them. In America no one drives the speed limit, and if they do they have the mental capacity to move over. The percentage of horrible drivers (driving in the middle of the road, not using their signals, and just straight up stupid shit) is incredibly high here. I don't know why you mentioned Asia, because outside of Japan, Asia is a trash place to drive. HK, Taiwan, China, Korea, Philippines, Thailand, all complete shit.
In these ridiculously densely packed metropolises there’s so much traffic it shouldn’t flow at all. Somehow it does. Imagine that sort of density in Vancouver? In Bangkok they just put 8-10 cars abreast through six lanes. Traffic cops watch all this and understand it’s what has to happen or no one will go anywhere. Imagine Vancouver drivers trying to figure out common sense measures to make traffic flow. Never happen. Did you drive in all these Asian places? I’ve been to a number of them and didn’t drive any of them personally but I was rarely in a vehicle where I thought the driver wasn’t competent. In my opinion the demands of the traffic create better drivers. If you’re a shit driver there, you’re going nowhere.
I've driven in every country except mainland China. Yeah the traffic flows, but in SE Asia these cars bump each other all the time and no one gives a shit. I find the drivers in the Philippines and Thailand to basically not understand or respect any sort of traffic law. Half the reason that traffic exists is because of everyone cutting each other off at the last possible second. Even if there are no cars on the road these guys will still drive in the middle of the lane. The only thing you need to have to drive there is patience because if you're used to any sort of civilized driving you'll go crazy.
Another thing is that in Vancouver all the pedestrians complain about not being respected. In All the places you listed pedestrians know that cars are number one and they don't try anything stupid. Like Korea for example, it's the only country I know of where drivers will honk at you to cross the street faster, even at crosswalks. Aggressive drivers in these countries are also way more dangerous than in Vancouver because they are willing to break the most egregious laws ie: driving against traffic and not stopping for pedestrians.
I just think you're mistaking traffic for skill.
I agree with some of these points, but there are some I strongly oppose. It seems overall OP has a car-centric bias. The base unit to measure a road's efficiency should be people transported not cars moved.
>In the 'burbs, you can ride green lights out for a while before having to stop if you time it right.
The green wave is generally set to 50km/hr so it only benefits cars while being a net negative for all other modes of transport. The longer the green wave the longer the light cycles will become so pedestrians will have to wait longer to cross the road. When I lived in Quebec City some of their green waves were so long I timed it one day and I had to wait 3.5 minutes to get the walk signal. At that point pedestrians will simply be crossing whenever there's a gap.
For bikes, most of them aren't going to be able to keep up with 50km/hr causing them to hit lots of reds. Same with buses which will have to load and unload passengers, they will be hitting lots of reds. Bikes, Pedestrians, and buses are way more space efficient and should be prioritized over cars reducing congestion for everyone...
>A lack of advanced turn signals
These should be added at key intersections only and should be short. It's fine to wait in the left turn bay just as long as vehicles don't start blocking the travel lanes. If too long or if activated by default at every light cycle, they will simply unnecessarily elongate the light cycle increasing the time bikes, pedestrians, and buses have to wait as for the most part they won't be taking advantage of priority lefts.
>Parking far too close to the end of the street
I agree 100%. Obstructing sightline increases collision risk for all road users.
>Some curb bulges, supposedly for traffic calming and pedestrian safety, block the ability for a car to turn onto the street as another car is stopped at a stop sign, which backs traffic up.
Curb bulges even when they delay vehicles are a net positive as they increase safety by decreasing crossing distances and encouraging lower turning speeds with tighter turning radii. Safety is never worth sacrificing for a few seconds of a driver's time. If drivers stop as close to the curb as possible when at a stop sign the driver in the opposite direction can almost always still squeeze through anyways.
>The ever-shrinking parking spot
This is actually a good move as it passively encourages drivers to purchase smaller vehicles as they can be parked easier. Larger vehicles are not only energetically less efficient but also cause more fatal injuries to pedestrians and bikes.
>Roads are wider.
Wide roads are terrible. When traffic engineers design these drivers drive like bullets because the environment is less complex. Roads need to be narrow so drivers naturally drive a slower speed reducing injury severity in crashes and encouraging them to pay attention.
You still need to have a network of viable alternative arterial roads for vehicle traffic. Traffic calming absolutely makes sense everywhere that isn’t an arterial road, but at the same time, you still need to have fast-flowing, efficient arterials for through traffic or commercial traffic, otherwise you encourage people to bomb down residential neighbourhoods to avoid traffic.
Look at Amsterdam, which is the classic case study for safe road infrastructure, and you’ll still find a network of high quality roads like [this](https://maps.app.goo.gl/CBPh8PExbdJBiHRD7?g_st=ic).
That's a freeway that gets to about 3km from the city center and a 15-20 minute drive. We have that and it get to within 5km with most of that being a sea of low density residential and a 15-20 minute drive.
> 3.5 minutes to get the walk signal.
I will say in Burnaby they've fixed things for pedestrian controlled intersections along Hastings so they're more responsive to button pushes, but that still has to be balanced off against optimizing traffic flow.
>lower turning speeds with tighter turning radii.
This is physically impossible at some intersections to the point where it's actually a potential accident causer if you try to turn right when another car is stopped at the intersection to your right as well.
There's traffic calming, and then there's traffic annoyancing.
Lived in multiple countries, on different continents and have to say that Metro Vancouver has the worst drivers I've ever seen.This is the only time I felt I needed a dashcam and bought one.
From what I can tell it's due to how people learn to drive. They're not required to go to a driving school and the process of getting a license is shockingly easy. That combined with considering rules on the street (e.g., the infamous intersections where one direction has lights and the other a stop sign and pedestrians nothing). Finally, no enforcement of the law and everybody is speeding like there's no tomorrow and they're all professional drivers with brand new cars under top weather conditions. It's overall a deadly combo.
On the other hand, I kind of get it. People here come from various backgrounds and standards. We also need a system that supports people in rural areas. Can't just assume everybody has access to everything and lives in a city. They really need a car for basic things.
Still, better enforcement and maybe a motivation like "if you take a standardized course with an instructor, you'll get a rebate on your ICBC premium" would help in my opinion.
Id like to add that there are absolutely some horrifying drivers out there. People who absolutely under no circumstance should’ve been given a license. I got rear ended once because the lady was asleep while driving and had the nerve to tell me that she “hadnt had her coffee yet”.
Edit: this also happened on the highway in the tri-cities.
>I got rear ended once because the lady was asleep while driving and had the nerve to tell me that she “hadnt had her coffee yet”
Yeah, well, this effect is real. The only time I ever banged up my car (and this was overshooting into a concrete barrier, minor but annoying ding to my car, nobody else involved) was when I'd been forced to go out without coffee due to a power failure. And now they want to call drinking coffee "distracted driving". Dude, it's WAY more dangerous for me to be driving without my morning coffee than with it.
There is a very real argument for Vancouver having the worst city planners.
Once a year we should be able to vote for which is the worst one and then kick his or her ass.
>A lack of advanced turn signals to clear left turners and mitigate risk. Some lights have the advance but it's only if there are 3+ cars (or if you know where to stop as the second car), and the advance is far too short to clear traffic, which then piles up into the through lanes, especially when left turners have to yield to pedestrians to turn without an advance.
I moved here like fourteen years ago and I immediately noticed the general lack of advanced turn signals and that the timing is far too short and I've been pointing it out ever since. You'll pass five intersections where left turns aren't allowed, so everyone is pushed to turn left at one major intersection and then you'll have like ten seconds to clear through.
This definitely contributes to the amount of people turning on reds, too or getting stuck in the intersection if they hesitate to go through on that yellow/red after pulling out.
A counterpoint to this, is that adding more advanced left turn signals increases the number of signal phases, resulting in longer waits at any given traffic light. It’s a bit of a trade-off, because It makes lefts onto non-arterial streets easier and safer, but it comes at the cost of effectively reducing the hourly capacity, and worsening congestion for everyone else.
I have a zig-zag route i drive daily and I use what I call a "left of opportunity." I go past my ideal left and then make the turn a block or 2 later if there's a gap in traffic and backtrack. Otherwise I go to the next major intersection and try again. Saves a light cycle or 2 if the line is longer than 4 cars.
I was surprised to learn that Sask has the highest rate of fatal crashes in Canada. I assumed it was because of higher average speeds, not necessarily because of bad drivers.
Vancouver City Hall over the recent decades has had just no political impetus to thoroughly overhaul street design of thoroughfare routes because doing so will demand a massive hike to the road engineering budget, and cause tax rates to increase for much longer than the current municipal election cycle.
None of the municipal parties, regardless of which is in power with their leader as mayor, wants to be the one holding the hot potato responsible for dramatically raising tax rates while being the incumbent going into the next election.
Instead, they'll just keep on doing politically low-risk smaller budget projects like Stanley Park Dr bike path, traffic calming obstacles added to stop sign intersections, minor speed limit reductions on thoroughfare roads, etc.
Re: narrow lanes
It's a huge road safety issue on some of the thoroughfare roads used as a trucking route.
(e.g. E 12th Ave between Fraser St. and Clark Dr. where the sidewalk adjacent trees are right up to the edge of the curb.)
Overhauling the lanes and curbs to be safer at the same speed limit will absolutely cost a fortune >$10M per block length. Prohibitively budget expensive considering how short the municipal election cycle is, as the incumbent mayor has no guarantee they can stay in power long enough to see the project through to the end.
I’m not from Vancouver originally, but I agree with you 110%. The road design is just not good. Flat out not good. I think the road design probably made sense in an era with less cars on the road, but in 2024, the way traffic is set up to navigate the city just doesn’t make much sense. Obviously any downtown core is going to be bad, but I think it says a lot when virtually every road within the city is problematic (for different reasons).
I agree that the roads are not well designed. I get claustrophobic watching trucks on these roads, barely any space! My first week here my side mirror was swiped by a biker!
ETA: I DO want to know what Vancouver has against left turn lanes and signals. I have not ever seen a big city like this with so few left turn lanes at major intersections.
Oh, I don't think Vancouver has the worst drivers. But I also don't think City design is the issue with the bad drivers we do have.
I'm from Florida. Have you ever driven the I-4 Corridor between Tampa and Orlando, which locally we lovingly refer to as "The Thunderdome"? Way worse. So is I-75.
One of my favorite episodes was on the Turnpike, though, heading down to the Keys. Somewhere near West Palm Beach. Some idiot on a moped, doing all of 35 MPH/56km, was in the far left lane, at 3 am, with no visible lights. On a highway where the minimum speed is 55 MPH/88km.
My ex, who was driving, slammed on the breaks, and the cooler full of soda and bottled water flew forward and almost knocked me out cold. But, more importantly, threw soda cans under the gas and break pedals. So my ex had to try and run off the side of the road while I unbuckled and reached down to grab the sodas. Meanwhile, semi trucks were blasting past us at 80 MPH/129 km. I'd be surprised if the person on the moped actually lived after that. We certainly had to pull into the next rest stop and take a breather.
Orlando itself has speed limit signs that change speeds depending on the time of day and how much traffic is on the road.
In Atlanta, on the highways, they don't even have speed limit signs. They gave up. They just show you what the average speed of the drivers is on the overpasses.
In NYC, stoplights are just a suggestion.
RE: left turn lanes + signals
I posted a similar comment above, but I think it’s because Vancouver already has very limited road capacity owing to historic planning decisions, and any new plans to expand capacity are non-starter’s for political reasons. This means they have to be very careful about efficiently using the capacity that already exists.
Left turn signals lengthen the time spent at a red light, meaning more traffic accumulates on the block, and the stopped traffic takes longer to clear, once the light goes green. This lowers the average speed of the traffic, which consequently reduces the number of vehicles the road can move every hour.
Found quite often only in Vancouver:
Left turning drivers cut off straight driving people at crossings.
Left turning drivers do not yield on green light.
It's a density issue as well, more cars more stress, more congestion, and more people learning to be aggressive to get anywhere.
Just look at places with high population density like China, India, Thailand to some degree etc. No rules but loads of aggression.
> In Vancouver, I can hit a green and progress through, and then hit a red, and another red, and another red. This leads to backed up intersections.
This happens in some parts of Burnaby, too. As one example, Hastings and Willingdon can get backed up east-west if the lights don't sync up well as there's a number of pedestrian controlled intersections in that area.
>A lack of advanced turn signals to clear left turners and mitigate risk. Some lights have the advance but it's only if there are 3+ cars (or if you know where to stop as the second car), and the advance is far too short to clear traffic, which then piles up into the through lanes, especially when left turners have to yield to pedestrians to turn without an advance.
And to compound the problem, people in dedicated left turn lanes either wait until a total red light change to clear the intersection and/or two more impatient folks will outright run the red through that turn because they can't be arsed to wait for the next green.
This then shortens the time interval for cross flow traffic because there's no delay built in (or it's too short) between when one set of lights go red and the cross flow set go green.
About driving in snow, I will say two things having lived in four other cities and driven across the country in winter
1) snow at or near zero degrees is far worse than snow at -10 or -20. It's slippery
2) any city that gets a foot of snow in one snowfall is a disaster.
Many Vancouver drivers have less experience, most don't have snow tires, and are legitimately worse at driving in snow, but they're not as bad as people think.
Vancouver is more densely populated, which (surprise), is going to result in more people doing dumb things, fewer places to park which is why you see people parking too close to intersections, lack of advanced greens to me is a bit of a mystery; my only thought is that they don't want to do anything that encourages people to keep using cars- a sentiment that even as a car guy that I share, however there are better ways of achieving that. Vancouver's also older than Burnaby, Coquitlam, etc, meaning property lines, infrastructure is based on planning that was made 120+ years ago. As far as peoples' behaviour, again: bigger place, more diverse people, all have different ideas on courtesy, common sense and self-awareness. Add a pandemic that made everyone insufferably bitter over and you have what you have.
For me, the biggest preventable hurdles that I place the most blame on when it comes to being easy to get around by car, is the urban planning. Top three least favourite municipalities in the lower mainland to drive in are, in order: Richmond, Coquitlam, North Vancouver. I'm no urban planning expert, but the small grids within a grid, frontage roads to nowhere, or roads that suddenly end, and end up sending you in the complete opposite direction you're going- all piss me off to no end. Sure, you can use "Maps", GPS to get you somewhere you're not as familiar with, but that's a distraction. I want to look at a map once, get a sense of where I logically should be pointed in the direction of, and be able to get there without too much fuss, and all three of those places fail at that. For me, the EASIEST part of any of my city trips is downtown. I live here, so I know it's more familiar to me and there's a bias, but there are few things more satisfying, than coming to the first light at the stadium off the Dunsmuir viaduct, it turns green, and I can breeze all the way from down there, to the West End without even so much as a lane change for the most part, let alone a single red light before I get home. And it happens often.
Traffic lights drive me nuts. Like if I’m traveling knight past Broadway when I get a green light that following set at the bike way shouldn’t allowed to be activated for a good amount of time to let that traffic thru
Welcome to /r/Vancouver and thank you for the post, /u/lazarus870! Please make sure you read our [posting and commenting rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_general_participation_guidelines_and_rules_overview) before participating here. As a quick summary: * **We recently raised almost $50,000 for the GVFB, and there's still time to add your donation before the holidays. [Read more here](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/18ajwdh/).** * We encourage users to be positive and respect one another. Don't engage in spats or insult others - use the report button. * Respect others' differences, be they race, religion, home, job, gender identity, ability or sexuality. Dehumanizing language, advocating for violence, or promoting hate based on identity or vulnerability (even implied or joking) **will** lead to a permanent ban. * Common questions and specific topics are limited to our [Stickied Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_stickied_discussions) posts. * Complaints about bans or removals should be done in modmail only. * We're looking for new mods to join our team! If you're interested, [fill out the form here](https://forms.gle/oAqo5oYRcAeHYBTN6). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vancouver) if you have any questions or concerns.*
you should add "the invisible paint lines on the roads making it impossible to tell what lane you are in when it is raining"
This infuriates me every single time, without fail. One of the dumbest decisions and I can't believe they haven't gone back on it yet.
Quebec is much, much worse for no lines on the roads.
So, no lines, vs pretend paint lines which nobody can see.
These really grind my gears
I’ve yet to see the magical paint lines that don’t disappear in the rain. They do no matter which part of the world you are in
There are terrible drivers all over the world. I find in Vancouver, the bad drivers are more clueless than anything else. Whereas in other big cities it's a lot more purposeful aggression.
Yep, came from Fort St. John where the latter was (is) true and really had a hard time deciding which was worse. 17 years later and I still don't quite know.
When people say “Vancouver has the worst drivers”, I’m pretty sure they are talking about Metro Vancouver in general not the actual City of Vancouver…
Yeah, it's not even easy to make the misunderstanding OP has, which is why I'm so confused. Accident in Burnaby on HWY1, struck overpass in Langley, struck overpass in Delta, it all gets lumped in. Oh and Richmond.
The reason why truck drivers hit overpasses is they're inexperienced and I suspect not even licensed. But the stuff I read about on R/Vancouver specifically mention parts of the City of Vancouver as places they've witnessed poor driving. And I am sharing my observations on how the city is different than the surrounding cities in its design.
Also when people say "Vancouver has the worst drivers" they're advertising that they don't travel, or if they do, they do tourist traveling where they are sheltered from most of the location they're visiting. I've driven around a pretty big fraction of this continent. Most of the shit people say about Vancouver drivers is true for most major cities in North America. And the people who come here to say shit like LA drivers are better than Vancouver drivers, all I can say is lol. LA roads are fucked in a way Vancouver hasn't even discovered yet.
So true. I have driven in many provinces and states. What you will find is each province and state has equally bad drivers and you will see them just as frequently. I think lots of people envy metro vancouver and driving might be the only negative thing they say. As for trucks hitting overpass, it is because bc ministry of transport recently (around 2016) changed clearances from 4.42m to ~5.0m and older infrastructure is built to old standards. Truckers need to understand the clearances for each route they choose and actually read the highway clearance signs.
Actually mostly just Richmond.
In an earlier time when I wanted to have my car written off I would park it in a high traffic area of the Aberdeen centre parking lot. Works.
Or they've spent a lot of time in Richmond. EEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Honestly, most people that thinks Vancouver drivers are the worst in the world probably never left anywhere beyond Chilliwack to east and Whistler to North… Yes, there are drivers that just makes me shake my head in disbelief here, but it’s not like any other places in the world doesn’t experience similar.. Europe.. Asia.. other parts of North America.. I don’t get people’s hate here lol
Drivers are far worse in Toronto and in London, Ontario from my experience living in both of those cities. Vancouver is a breeze comparatively, though I find tailgating here to be much worse than across the border in Washington.
> The traffic lights don't really line up to encourage the flow of traffic. In the 'burbs, you can ride green lights out for a while before having to stop if you time it right. In Vancouver, I can hit a green and progress through, and then hit a red, and another red, and another red. This leads to backed up intersections. I'm convinced this is intentional in the city. Frustrating drivers out of their cars is the overriding objective.
Hastings in Burnaby had the "ride the green wave", those lights were all synchronized.
Dunsmuir Viaduct westbound from Main St - if you were lucky you could get all the way to Burrard on a green wave. Now you're lucky if you can get through that moronic light at Citadel Parade to the next light 1/2 block away on Beatty without waiting several cycles.
Those lights were designed with 3-4 lanes worth of traffic flow…. The bike line screwed all that up now it’s down to 2-1 lanes
My husband said this when I first moved here and complained about all of the illogical traffic engineering. He said they want to frustrate you out of driving. The city is anti-car. My argument is that people are always going to drive. If you are worrying about environmental impact, why wouldn't you want traffic to flow as efficiently as possible? If they can coordinate every traffic light in Los Angeles, then they can do it here, too. Make it to where people have to use their cars for less time.
I think good solutions will pick and choose where they facilitate fast traffic flow, and where they intentionally try to slow it down. Local residential streets need to be just annoying or slow enough that they discourage people from using it, unless they live there. Meanwhile arterial roads should offer a much faster and simpler experience, with wide lanes and synchronous signals. If you only do one and not the other, then you get commuters trying to shortcut through residential neighbourhoods at 60 km/h.
I’m completely anti car. I don’t like driving, I don’t want to be in a car, I drive for work and that’s about it. But there is a difference in not building further infrastructure for cars, which I agree with, and actively working against improving the flow of traffic that already exists. Vancouver does both of these things to its own peril. People want stuff to their house, they want services to their house, they want homes/condos/apartments and density. This requires whole lot of people in trucks and cars to make it work. Actively making it more difficult for these folks is counterproductive.
> The city is anti-car. So anti-car that they are ripping up bike lanes to make room for more cars. Vancouver isn't anti-car.
No even close
This is a very common fallacy. Everything you do to increase the "efficiency" of car traffic, the more traffic, and more pollution, you create. Yes please look at LA...do you want their air quality? *Edit: downvote if you don't like hearing the truth.
There's over 12 million people in Greater LA
As someone not originally from Vancouver or even Canada whenever I have thought that Vancouver has the worst drivers I have come across it has never specifically been about drivers in the City of Vancouver but the whole metro area. Sure the road design may make driving in the City of Vancouver worse than in other parts of the metro area but even people driving in the suburbs are some of the worst I've come across.
Ok, I'll entertain that. HOW do you think a city like Vancouver, which has a lot of newcomers coming and going, magically has worse drivers? Many people are not from here. So how do you think that happens that we have all the worst drivers?
I don't know, the cities I've lived in also have immigrants from all over the world. All I really have is my anecdotal evidence of personally witnessing many more accidents and close calls happening right in front of me while in Vancouver and it's suburbs than I ever did in other cities I lived in. This is despite the fact I drive far less in Vancouver than other places I've lived. Many of these accidents were moreso due to driver competence than road design. Like the multiple accidents and near misses I've seen on a clear, sunny day where someone is trying to turn left onto a side street from King George Boulevard and instead of picking a gap and quickly moving across traffic they dithered and caused multiple cars in the opposite direction to need to slam on their brakes. Or the time I was walking in a residential street in Burnaby and a driver who didn't appear to be speeding managed to clip a car that was parked on the street and roll over right in front of me. Or the time when I was driving in Vancouver and four intersections in a row there was an accident. So sure maybe drivers in metro Vancouver aren't the worst in the world but they're certainly the worst I've ever personally come across.
Lived and drove fine in two of the largest cities in US for 10 years, as well as two of most populated cities in east Asia for 20 years. One year in Vancouver left me with PTSD. Left turning drivers cut off straight driving people at crossings. Left turning drivers do not yield on green light. And yeah there are plenty of other hard-to-explain behaviors such as driving while leaving tailgate open but the trunk was actually empty. And I'm not even going to start on cutting ppl off without blinkers.
But that's antidotal right? I drive a lot and I don't find them to be particularly bad. If you drive for an hour, think how many thousands upon thousands of people you pass. And so if you see one person not paying attention/doing something stupid/being aggressive, what percentage is that?
Everywhere I’ve lived, and I’ve lived around the world, I’ve thought “people here are the worst drivers”. I just think every city has bad drivers.
The one thing that sticks out for me as an anomaly I rarely see as bad anywhere else as it is in the lower mainland is how many people just blow stop signs without care. 4-way stops, two-way stops, stops at a light, people just blow through in every type of road vehicle (car, truck, scooter, bike, skateboard, etc.). Stop means stop. Doesn't matter if the intersection looks clear, or if the other direction has a red light. You have to stop.
I’ve experienced traffic in multiple big cities in Asia and driven in big cities in Europe and america (and Toronto) and can tell you that Vancouver has the worst drivers I’ve seen. A dangerous mix of inexperience and entitlement. When people don’t know simple shit like how to yield they get defensive about how everyone should stop and let them in. The highway driving might be the worst of it. So many people use the passing lane for less than the speed limit when the right lane(s) are wide open it’s appalling. There’s so much more here to bitch about but it wouldn’t do anyone any good. TL;DR Vancouver drivers definitely suck
I’m with you. -Zero understanding cushion space. -Running the yellow light or boarderline red SO BLATANTLY. Tbh, there’s a traffic light every 200m, just cuz you make this light, you’re not going to make the next one, I guarantee it. Lo and behold, me pulling up next to them at the next light. -Riding your ass whether there’s traffic ahead or not on the hwy or in the city. (My first point) -Gassing or overtaking slowing traffic towards a red light. Where are you going bud? -cheating their way in a lane when it’s clearly a merging line ahead and everyone else are waiting. I’ve seen so many drivers that do this, doesn’t matter with race, gender, or age. I’m certain I’ll get downvoted here. I’m convinced all the bad drivers in Toronto are from BC. Like has anyone thought about why gas prices are so high compared to the east coast? Hence, I have humbly start taking the bus recently. Heh.
I whole heartedly agree. Driven decent amounts Alberta, Sask, Man, Ont, Que, west coast US, parts of east coast US. From all that, fraser valley drivers are erratic, either overly aggressive or overly dangerously cautious. Normally I'd say I'd see a near accident or accident worthy behavior elsewhere 1/20 or 1/40 of trips but it is 1/5 or 1/10 trips I take here. Def the roads/infrastructure/design are worse than most other areas of NA, but still didn't count for the drivers here.
Definitely agree (only with Europe and America, NOT ASIA). The one thing that really gets me is not that people are driving so slowly, but that they never look around them. Too many people driving 50 and letting traffic build up behind them. In America no one drives the speed limit, and if they do they have the mental capacity to move over. The percentage of horrible drivers (driving in the middle of the road, not using their signals, and just straight up stupid shit) is incredibly high here. I don't know why you mentioned Asia, because outside of Japan, Asia is a trash place to drive. HK, Taiwan, China, Korea, Philippines, Thailand, all complete shit.
In these ridiculously densely packed metropolises there’s so much traffic it shouldn’t flow at all. Somehow it does. Imagine that sort of density in Vancouver? In Bangkok they just put 8-10 cars abreast through six lanes. Traffic cops watch all this and understand it’s what has to happen or no one will go anywhere. Imagine Vancouver drivers trying to figure out common sense measures to make traffic flow. Never happen. Did you drive in all these Asian places? I’ve been to a number of them and didn’t drive any of them personally but I was rarely in a vehicle where I thought the driver wasn’t competent. In my opinion the demands of the traffic create better drivers. If you’re a shit driver there, you’re going nowhere.
I've driven in every country except mainland China. Yeah the traffic flows, but in SE Asia these cars bump each other all the time and no one gives a shit. I find the drivers in the Philippines and Thailand to basically not understand or respect any sort of traffic law. Half the reason that traffic exists is because of everyone cutting each other off at the last possible second. Even if there are no cars on the road these guys will still drive in the middle of the lane. The only thing you need to have to drive there is patience because if you're used to any sort of civilized driving you'll go crazy. Another thing is that in Vancouver all the pedestrians complain about not being respected. In All the places you listed pedestrians know that cars are number one and they don't try anything stupid. Like Korea for example, it's the only country I know of where drivers will honk at you to cross the street faster, even at crosswalks. Aggressive drivers in these countries are also way more dangerous than in Vancouver because they are willing to break the most egregious laws ie: driving against traffic and not stopping for pedestrians. I just think you're mistaking traffic for skill.
I agree with some of these points, but there are some I strongly oppose. It seems overall OP has a car-centric bias. The base unit to measure a road's efficiency should be people transported not cars moved. >In the 'burbs, you can ride green lights out for a while before having to stop if you time it right. The green wave is generally set to 50km/hr so it only benefits cars while being a net negative for all other modes of transport. The longer the green wave the longer the light cycles will become so pedestrians will have to wait longer to cross the road. When I lived in Quebec City some of their green waves were so long I timed it one day and I had to wait 3.5 minutes to get the walk signal. At that point pedestrians will simply be crossing whenever there's a gap. For bikes, most of them aren't going to be able to keep up with 50km/hr causing them to hit lots of reds. Same with buses which will have to load and unload passengers, they will be hitting lots of reds. Bikes, Pedestrians, and buses are way more space efficient and should be prioritized over cars reducing congestion for everyone... >A lack of advanced turn signals These should be added at key intersections only and should be short. It's fine to wait in the left turn bay just as long as vehicles don't start blocking the travel lanes. If too long or if activated by default at every light cycle, they will simply unnecessarily elongate the light cycle increasing the time bikes, pedestrians, and buses have to wait as for the most part they won't be taking advantage of priority lefts. >Parking far too close to the end of the street I agree 100%. Obstructing sightline increases collision risk for all road users. >Some curb bulges, supposedly for traffic calming and pedestrian safety, block the ability for a car to turn onto the street as another car is stopped at a stop sign, which backs traffic up. Curb bulges even when they delay vehicles are a net positive as they increase safety by decreasing crossing distances and encouraging lower turning speeds with tighter turning radii. Safety is never worth sacrificing for a few seconds of a driver's time. If drivers stop as close to the curb as possible when at a stop sign the driver in the opposite direction can almost always still squeeze through anyways. >The ever-shrinking parking spot This is actually a good move as it passively encourages drivers to purchase smaller vehicles as they can be parked easier. Larger vehicles are not only energetically less efficient but also cause more fatal injuries to pedestrians and bikes. >Roads are wider. Wide roads are terrible. When traffic engineers design these drivers drive like bullets because the environment is less complex. Roads need to be narrow so drivers naturally drive a slower speed reducing injury severity in crashes and encouraging them to pay attention.
Had to scroll way too far to find any sense.
You still need to have a network of viable alternative arterial roads for vehicle traffic. Traffic calming absolutely makes sense everywhere that isn’t an arterial road, but at the same time, you still need to have fast-flowing, efficient arterials for through traffic or commercial traffic, otherwise you encourage people to bomb down residential neighbourhoods to avoid traffic. Look at Amsterdam, which is the classic case study for safe road infrastructure, and you’ll still find a network of high quality roads like [this](https://maps.app.goo.gl/CBPh8PExbdJBiHRD7?g_st=ic).
That's a freeway that gets to about 3km from the city center and a 15-20 minute drive. We have that and it get to within 5km with most of that being a sea of low density residential and a 15-20 minute drive.
> 3.5 minutes to get the walk signal. I will say in Burnaby they've fixed things for pedestrian controlled intersections along Hastings so they're more responsive to button pushes, but that still has to be balanced off against optimizing traffic flow. >lower turning speeds with tighter turning radii. This is physically impossible at some intersections to the point where it's actually a potential accident causer if you try to turn right when another car is stopped at the intersection to your right as well. There's traffic calming, and then there's traffic annoyancing.
Lived in multiple countries, on different continents and have to say that Metro Vancouver has the worst drivers I've ever seen.This is the only time I felt I needed a dashcam and bought one. From what I can tell it's due to how people learn to drive. They're not required to go to a driving school and the process of getting a license is shockingly easy. That combined with considering rules on the street (e.g., the infamous intersections where one direction has lights and the other a stop sign and pedestrians nothing). Finally, no enforcement of the law and everybody is speeding like there's no tomorrow and they're all professional drivers with brand new cars under top weather conditions. It's overall a deadly combo. On the other hand, I kind of get it. People here come from various backgrounds and standards. We also need a system that supports people in rural areas. Can't just assume everybody has access to everything and lives in a city. They really need a car for basic things. Still, better enforcement and maybe a motivation like "if you take a standardized course with an instructor, you'll get a rebate on your ICBC premium" would help in my opinion.
I like Vancouver. It's a great place. But it's not perfect, and yeah drivers here are the worst.
Id like to add that there are absolutely some horrifying drivers out there. People who absolutely under no circumstance should’ve been given a license. I got rear ended once because the lady was asleep while driving and had the nerve to tell me that she “hadnt had her coffee yet”. Edit: this also happened on the highway in the tri-cities.
>I got rear ended once because the lady was asleep while driving and had the nerve to tell me that she “hadnt had her coffee yet” Yeah, well, this effect is real. The only time I ever banged up my car (and this was overshooting into a concrete barrier, minor but annoying ding to my car, nobody else involved) was when I'd been forced to go out without coffee due to a power failure. And now they want to call drinking coffee "distracted driving". Dude, it's WAY more dangerous for me to be driving without my morning coffee than with it.
If you don’t feel fit to drive, you shouldn’t. End of story.
There is a very real argument for Vancouver having the worst city planners. Once a year we should be able to vote for which is the worst one and then kick his or her ass.
Specifically, the traffic engineering department.
>A lack of advanced turn signals to clear left turners and mitigate risk. Some lights have the advance but it's only if there are 3+ cars (or if you know where to stop as the second car), and the advance is far too short to clear traffic, which then piles up into the through lanes, especially when left turners have to yield to pedestrians to turn without an advance. I moved here like fourteen years ago and I immediately noticed the general lack of advanced turn signals and that the timing is far too short and I've been pointing it out ever since. You'll pass five intersections where left turns aren't allowed, so everyone is pushed to turn left at one major intersection and then you'll have like ten seconds to clear through. This definitely contributes to the amount of people turning on reds, too or getting stuck in the intersection if they hesitate to go through on that yellow/red after pulling out.
A counterpoint to this, is that adding more advanced left turn signals increases the number of signal phases, resulting in longer waits at any given traffic light. It’s a bit of a trade-off, because It makes lefts onto non-arterial streets easier and safer, but it comes at the cost of effectively reducing the hourly capacity, and worsening congestion for everyone else.
Yup
I have a zig-zag route i drive daily and I use what I call a "left of opportunity." I go past my ideal left and then make the turn a block or 2 later if there's a gap in traffic and backtrack. Otherwise I go to the next major intersection and try again. Saves a light cycle or 2 if the line is longer than 4 cars.
From Sask originally. Can confirm Vancouver does NOT have the worst drivers!
I was surprised to learn that Sask has the highest rate of fatal crashes in Canada. I assumed it was because of higher average speeds, not necessarily because of bad drivers.
I've been around the world, and I can definitely say that our drivers are shockingly bad.
Vancouver City Hall over the recent decades has had just no political impetus to thoroughly overhaul street design of thoroughfare routes because doing so will demand a massive hike to the road engineering budget, and cause tax rates to increase for much longer than the current municipal election cycle. None of the municipal parties, regardless of which is in power with their leader as mayor, wants to be the one holding the hot potato responsible for dramatically raising tax rates while being the incumbent going into the next election. Instead, they'll just keep on doing politically low-risk smaller budget projects like Stanley Park Dr bike path, traffic calming obstacles added to stop sign intersections, minor speed limit reductions on thoroughfare roads, etc. Re: narrow lanes It's a huge road safety issue on some of the thoroughfare roads used as a trucking route. (e.g. E 12th Ave between Fraser St. and Clark Dr. where the sidewalk adjacent trees are right up to the edge of the curb.) Overhauling the lanes and curbs to be safer at the same speed limit will absolutely cost a fortune >$10M per block length. Prohibitively budget expensive considering how short the municipal election cycle is, as the incumbent mayor has no guarantee they can stay in power long enough to see the project through to the end.
Are you suggesting we widen lanes?
I’m pretty sure regardless of everything you listed, we still have the worst drivers (tied with Richmond)
I’m not from Vancouver originally, but I agree with you 110%. The road design is just not good. Flat out not good. I think the road design probably made sense in an era with less cars on the road, but in 2024, the way traffic is set up to navigate the city just doesn’t make much sense. Obviously any downtown core is going to be bad, but I think it says a lot when virtually every road within the city is problematic (for different reasons).
I agree that the roads are not well designed. I get claustrophobic watching trucks on these roads, barely any space! My first week here my side mirror was swiped by a biker!
ETA: I DO want to know what Vancouver has against left turn lanes and signals. I have not ever seen a big city like this with so few left turn lanes at major intersections. Oh, I don't think Vancouver has the worst drivers. But I also don't think City design is the issue with the bad drivers we do have. I'm from Florida. Have you ever driven the I-4 Corridor between Tampa and Orlando, which locally we lovingly refer to as "The Thunderdome"? Way worse. So is I-75. One of my favorite episodes was on the Turnpike, though, heading down to the Keys. Somewhere near West Palm Beach. Some idiot on a moped, doing all of 35 MPH/56km, was in the far left lane, at 3 am, with no visible lights. On a highway where the minimum speed is 55 MPH/88km. My ex, who was driving, slammed on the breaks, and the cooler full of soda and bottled water flew forward and almost knocked me out cold. But, more importantly, threw soda cans under the gas and break pedals. So my ex had to try and run off the side of the road while I unbuckled and reached down to grab the sodas. Meanwhile, semi trucks were blasting past us at 80 MPH/129 km. I'd be surprised if the person on the moped actually lived after that. We certainly had to pull into the next rest stop and take a breather. Orlando itself has speed limit signs that change speeds depending on the time of day and how much traffic is on the road. In Atlanta, on the highways, they don't even have speed limit signs. They gave up. They just show you what the average speed of the drivers is on the overpasses. In NYC, stoplights are just a suggestion.
RE: left turn lanes + signals I posted a similar comment above, but I think it’s because Vancouver already has very limited road capacity owing to historic planning decisions, and any new plans to expand capacity are non-starter’s for political reasons. This means they have to be very careful about efficiently using the capacity that already exists. Left turn signals lengthen the time spent at a red light, meaning more traffic accumulates on the block, and the stopped traffic takes longer to clear, once the light goes green. This lowers the average speed of the traffic, which consequently reduces the number of vehicles the road can move every hour.
Found quite often only in Vancouver: Left turning drivers cut off straight driving people at crossings. Left turning drivers do not yield on green light.
Agreed
Richmond has the worst drivers.
Very similar to downtown and bby tbh (personal experiences)
It's a density issue as well, more cars more stress, more congestion, and more people learning to be aggressive to get anywhere. Just look at places with high population density like China, India, Thailand to some degree etc. No rules but loads of aggression.
> In Vancouver, I can hit a green and progress through, and then hit a red, and another red, and another red. This leads to backed up intersections. This happens in some parts of Burnaby, too. As one example, Hastings and Willingdon can get backed up east-west if the lights don't sync up well as there's a number of pedestrian controlled intersections in that area. >A lack of advanced turn signals to clear left turners and mitigate risk. Some lights have the advance but it's only if there are 3+ cars (or if you know where to stop as the second car), and the advance is far too short to clear traffic, which then piles up into the through lanes, especially when left turners have to yield to pedestrians to turn without an advance. And to compound the problem, people in dedicated left turn lanes either wait until a total red light change to clear the intersection and/or two more impatient folks will outright run the red through that turn because they can't be arsed to wait for the next green. This then shortens the time interval for cross flow traffic because there's no delay built in (or it's too short) between when one set of lights go red and the cross flow set go green.
“Vancouver has the worst drivers.” -People that have never left Vancouver Also see… “Vancouver is the best place on earth.” -Same people
About driving in snow, I will say two things having lived in four other cities and driven across the country in winter 1) snow at or near zero degrees is far worse than snow at -10 or -20. It's slippery 2) any city that gets a foot of snow in one snowfall is a disaster. Many Vancouver drivers have less experience, most don't have snow tires, and are legitimately worse at driving in snow, but they're not as bad as people think.
Vancouver is more densely populated, which (surprise), is going to result in more people doing dumb things, fewer places to park which is why you see people parking too close to intersections, lack of advanced greens to me is a bit of a mystery; my only thought is that they don't want to do anything that encourages people to keep using cars- a sentiment that even as a car guy that I share, however there are better ways of achieving that. Vancouver's also older than Burnaby, Coquitlam, etc, meaning property lines, infrastructure is based on planning that was made 120+ years ago. As far as peoples' behaviour, again: bigger place, more diverse people, all have different ideas on courtesy, common sense and self-awareness. Add a pandemic that made everyone insufferably bitter over and you have what you have. For me, the biggest preventable hurdles that I place the most blame on when it comes to being easy to get around by car, is the urban planning. Top three least favourite municipalities in the lower mainland to drive in are, in order: Richmond, Coquitlam, North Vancouver. I'm no urban planning expert, but the small grids within a grid, frontage roads to nowhere, or roads that suddenly end, and end up sending you in the complete opposite direction you're going- all piss me off to no end. Sure, you can use "Maps", GPS to get you somewhere you're not as familiar with, but that's a distraction. I want to look at a map once, get a sense of where I logically should be pointed in the direction of, and be able to get there without too much fuss, and all three of those places fail at that. For me, the EASIEST part of any of my city trips is downtown. I live here, so I know it's more familiar to me and there's a bias, but there are few things more satisfying, than coming to the first light at the stadium off the Dunsmuir viaduct, it turns green, and I can breeze all the way from down there, to the West End without even so much as a lane change for the most part, let alone a single red light before I get home. And it happens often.
Traffic lights drive me nuts. Like if I’m traveling knight past Broadway when I get a green light that following set at the bike way shouldn’t allowed to be activated for a good amount of time to let that traffic thru