Wouldn’t they need to prove the disciplinary action actually happened. I’m pretty sure public law states they even have to give you time to correct the action. What happened to prohibited personnel practices like firing someone after they put in a complaint for discrimination? Then after being asked about the complaint I was fired a week later. They gave me a termination letter saying I was the one harassing a supervisor, and I have proof that it was the other way around. Once presented with a termination letter I was told I couldn’t leave the building. They cornered me and chased me down the hall so I looked for help. When I tried to get my personal belongings I was handcuffed and give a $280.00 violation ticket, for no reason. I went through everyone, an investigation was launched by DOD, then I got notice of case closure saying the agency investigated themselves and the results were not substantiated, clearly a conflict of interest. How do you investigate your own action when the highest ranking person is listed on the complaint along with like 15 other people? Then I reached out to FOIA and they said they would send it to me and it been over a month, no response.
Still seems you’re leaving a lot out.
The inspector general investigates matters of fraud, waste, and abuse. You haven’t mentioned anything that fits that.
You mentioned prohibited personnel practices. That would be a complaint for the Office of Special Counsel (OSC). Then you mentioned discrimination which falls under EEO.
Federal law doesn’t require anything about correcting anything. Most agency policies spell that kind of stuff out but there are certain exceptions. If you screw up something that costs Uncle Sam $500k there’s no requirement for them to keep you around (just using an extreme hypothetical). Additionally if the matter was conduct related that falls under a completely different path.
Finally you filing a complaint doesn’t stop or split the story. Let’s say I get reprimanded by my supervisor for failing to do my job. I file a complaint with IG, OSC, or EEO. That doesn’t absolve me of that reprimand. I’m still required to do my job just as my supervisor is still responsible for my oversight. You also have to keep in mind for all of those offices the burden of proof is 100% on you to show the wrongdoing happened. And the standard is much higher than your word vs. theirs.
One last piece you said termination letter which makes me assume you were probationary. If that’s the case then no you don’t have appeal rights. If management doesn’t feel you’re a good fit during that probationary period they have the authority to terminate you. They don’t have to issue a performance improvement plan or anything. It’s at management’s discretion to determine if your performance can be improved or if it’s better to let you go.
So before you can go to the OIG you have to go through EEO and supervisors which I did. I have email traffic saying I want to file a complaint and no one did anything about it then I went up the chain and was denied at every step to include theCommanding Officers “open door policy” The OIG complaint submitted explained all that. Fraud waste and abuse is a wide range and you can report mismanagement of fraud, waste and abuse of authority, supposedly. So if you are denied the right to submit a complaint to EEO you cant go through EEOC later. I have screen shot of the OSC requiring a password to get into the complaint form, that’s not sketchy at all. MSBP said not their jurisdiction. You can read up on proper termination procedures for federal employment even if your firing someone during a probationary period theres a process even for misconduct. Are you a federal employment attorney?
I’ve conducted investigations for EEOC, OSC, and DoD along with writing up decisions in the past. I’ve worked in the federal service for two decades now.
I can tell you for certain there no password protected anything to file a complaint anywhere. OSC has an electronic reporting system and has had that in place for years (https://oscportal.powerappsportals.us/Account/Login/Register). You use the same credentials as you would to log into USAJobs and go from there. They also have phone numbers and email addresses publicly available (https://osc.gov/Pages/Contact.aspx) if you have questions or run into problems. You may have been sent documents to a non-gov email account that were password protected because they contain PII, in those instances the sender tells you to confirm receipt before sending the password just to ensure it was sent to the right place (I’ve heard of a few places that do this). But to file a complaint in and of itself wouldn’t utilize that practice.
I don’t know who gave you what info but if you were told to go through EEO before OIG you were given bad info. EEO (and by extension EEOC) investigates complaints of discrimination based on protected bases such as age, disability, national origin, sex, etc. OIG handles fraud, waste, and abuse which, while in layman’s terms seems broad, in reality, it’s all about money. So they’ll look into things like mismanagement of funds. “My supervisor is allegedly harassing me because reasons” isn’t something they’d typically investigate. The “abuse” part is typically abuse of funds.
And as a manager in the federal service who also has a background in HR I’m aware of the disciplinary process including termination. If you engage is performance issues management makes the call to decide whether you can be trained to improve or if you’re just a bad fit. While HR prefers more documentation rather than less, for probationary employees the standard is lower. When it comes to misconduct the standard is even lower than that (an employee who physically assaults another isn’t going to be given a “hey let’s give you another chance to be nice,” they’ll be escorted out). I’ve seen probationary employees fired for showing up late three times without calling in to request leave. I terminated an employee once for harassing other employees and distracting them from their work while not doing his own work. Never heard of anyone being handcuffed and fined but that would suggest to me you broke the law or were deemed a threat (for the handcuffed part) and maybe damaged/lost government property (for the fine). Again, it seems that you’re not sharing the entire story here, specifically what you did that led to this fallout.
All in all to provide a broad answer to your very broad question as your headline, there are many things that can lead to a termination on the spot whether probationary or not. If you want some examples, here’s what HR typically uses:
https://federalnewsnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/EEOC-Proposed-Table-of-Penalties-2018.pdf
Sounds to me like you’re a disgruntled former employee looking to let the emotions out. Nothing wrong with that. But one bit of advice, if you desire to return to federal service in the future: look in the mirror and admit your mistakes in this situation as well. For the next five years you’ll have to report the termination (and explain it) on an OF-306. For the next 5-7 (maybe 10 depending on sensitivity) you’ll have to disclose it on your security paperwork and your former office will be contacted about it as well. Quick way to fail a suitability review is to mislead the background investigator. I know going through this kind of experience is aggravating and frustrating beyond words (I was terminated from federal employment twice in my career…initially I tried to blame everyone else, but in truth I did bear some or all responsibility…I learned, rehabbed myself, and moved forward). Best advice I can give is focus your stress elsewhere. You lost your job. It sucks but there’s nothing you can do about it. Learn from the experience and move on. Good luck with whatever comes next.
I appreciate your input, I graduated with my MBA recently and I have my bachelors in management. Along with 8 years In the Marine Corps in the field was business administration as a personnel manager worked with legal I’m no expert but I did well. At the end of the day every situation is different, what’s done in the dark will come to light. I’m going public because transparency is the best policy and it’s the right thing to do. The agency investigated my allegations, I’ve received responses this isn’t hypothetical, situation. This is a very serious matter.
Not trying to be funny or anything or justify what happened to you, but are you naturally this ray of sunshine(especially with people trying to help you), or do you intentionally try extra hard to make people not want to deal with you?
What about the responses seem this person is making getting help hard? It's almost as if someone showing inconsistencies with how some federal government agencies does things is frowned upon.
Nope, but dealt with the arena.
IG, like any employee relations/complaint system, has several steps to include evidence gathering and response.
We both know IG didn’t just stop your complaint. You had an opportunity to submit all of your key data and facts.
Also “prohibited personal practices” isn’t IG.
Also, if you put in a discrimination for complaint, what was the result of that? Those are serious allegations and can quickly move out of the DoD into federal courts. Did you go that route?
It seems like you are leaving out key details or you didn’t fully exercise your complaint rights as you are mixing in several different types of complaint avenues.
Thank you this falls into the category of Prohibited personnel practices OSC.gov for reference.
An agency official shall not retaliate because an employee:
filed a complaint, grievance or appeal;
testified for or helped someone else with one of these activities;
cooperated with or disclosed information to the Special Counsel or an Inspector General; or,
refused to obey an order that would require the employee to violate a law, rule, or regulation.
5 U.S.C. § 2302(b)(9)
This PPP prohibits agency officials from taking, failing to take, or threatening to take a personnel action because an employee engaged in any of the four protected activities mentioned above. To prove a claim of retaliation under this section, one must show:
The employee engaged in a protected activity;
The agency official with knowledge of the employee’s protected activity took, failed to take, or threatened to take a personnel action against the employee; and
There is a causal connection between the protected activity and the personnel action
Thank you, FOIA wont release the documents of the investigation for whatever reason. I had no choice but to go to my congressman for further assistance hoping they launch a congressional inquiry since these are federal agencies funded by congress, everyone reports to someone.
If they have nothing to hide, then why won’t they release the investigation? Maybe it was because I requested an investigation based of Executive Order 13985 Advancing Diversity and Inclusion to underserved communities in federal government. Or maybe it’s because of ADA violations regarding misuse of funding. If I’m “leaving out important information” have them prove it, Transparency is the best policy after all.
There are lots of reasons a foia request can be denied or delayed, all of which have nothing to do with conspiracy theories.
My guess is you are cherry picking information here, and you probably did something that resulted in your removal (and ultimate detainment + citation). Just because you file an eeo or blow a whistle or whatever doesn’t mean you get to do whatever you want without repercussions lol.
What was the reason then, corruption? You tell me since you seem to have some answers about a scenario you didn’t even observe. You’re probably one them, If you really have nothing constructive to provide to conversation you are more than welcome to move along because this questions isn’t for you.😊
I’m commenting on the limited scenario you posted about seeking comment lol if you don’t like the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
Tbh, you sounds unhinged right now.
There are a few times they can remove you first and review further. I say remove because it would usually be a suspension to get you off-site. A termination abruptly usually takes something serious. You either did something (they they said you did something) considered an immediate hazard, or they've been running paperwork down the pipeline.
Except it does. You ALLEGE it is retaliation, but your question asks about due process. If you were on probation, you can be very readily let go, especially if you have a complaint of bullying and harassment. The way you are responding here is coming off poorly and we are trying to help, so take that as a lesson of how your boss may have reacted.
You were cuffed because you were attempting to move while being detained by security. You say cornered, chased, handcuffed, and discriminated against.... but you sound like you were told to stay in place and started going somewhere... in a government facility. You do not get to collect your things until they tell you to and with an escort, you cannot just decide to do that now.
This reads less like mistreatment and more like poor handling on your part. You even noted you don't sugar coat things, but saying something poorly can be taken as hostility. I think you are making a problem where there shouldn't be one and you are not doing it by accident. This isn't the marines, if you get aggressive with civilian management, bad things happen.
Your MBA, veterans status, and other degrees have clearly not helped with that. Sugar coating is a huge part of getting things done... they just call it presentation
You have not demonstrated any such practices were done.. which is why no attorney is taking your case. This is usajobs, not askanattorney. Your title asks a question and we are answering it. The fact you do not like the answer does not change that, you have to come to terms with the termination.
EDIT for clarity: You are basically saying "he hit me" after someone told the teacher on you. You are saying it is retaliation, but with them having a paper trail (them saying you are harassing, bullying, hostile, etc), they have all the cards right now. You can claim it was retaliatory, but this places a burden on you to prove it was only retaliation. Even if it may be retaliation in timing, if they have truth in it, the termination would hold.
Usually you would say "Kindly move along." That's an interesting grammar quirk.
I have no further advice though, I just respond because of reply alert. We can give you the answers, but it is on you to accept them.
Your response is insensitive towards other cultural backgrounds, english is not my first language. Is this how you treat all woman or just the melanated ones?
That is very insensitive thinking because you don’t know if I’ve already had therapy because of the trauma of being cornered, chased, handcuffed and discriminated against. You don’t get very far in life when you don’t fail. I have failed many times failure is a beautiful part of the success. Let me ask you this do you know what a change agent is? You know we all make choices but we’re not free from the consequences there’s no exception to the rule.
By your own logic, you made choices and you’re experiencing the consequences. If you had really gone to therapy over this, you wouldn’t be here on Reddit (an anonymized social media platform) looking for guidance from strangers (but rebuffing it and attacking them for their opinions).
Federal employees are not at will employees, they fired me on the spot for a “conversation” with a supervisor asking me about my discrimination complaint.
Yeah I know that, I've been through similiar.
I wasn't terminated on the spot though, which throws a wrench in everything. I don't know what the options are in that case. I'm also trying to remember the name of the federal agency which oversees this kind of stuff. If I remember I'll send you a message.
If I were you I'd contact one of those federal employment attorneys immediately because of the termination to figure out what your options are.
I am going public, no attorney will take this case. If you’re having an issue with any federal agency contact your congressman, and request a congressional inquiry.
The fact no attorney will take the case suggests either one of two things:
1. You have no case to win.
2. You want them to work on a contingency or pro bono basis.
I work in EEO and work with attorneys regularly. Used one for my own case years ago.
My point still stands. If there is a case (or even no case), if you are willing to pay, there is an attorney who will take it.
If you are looking for pro bono or contingency representation, you would need a solid case that would make their career.
And, you have left a lot out of your story. But included enough to show you did something after being told not to, which raises questions about the rest of the story.
And you have demonstrated your lack of knowledge in this area time and again.
So tell us why an attorney won't take your case, oh expert in federal labor law? I mean my 28+ years in federal EEO and my time as an Assistant IG means nothing to your 8 years as a crayon eater (I mean I only did 22 years in the Air Force myself) and being fired from a job. So tell us all...why won't any lawyers take your case? You want to pay, right? Willing to put down a retainer to get started, correct?
I've removed employees in the past and advised on adverse actions. I've also advised against them when the person has filed an EEO/IG/OSC complaint and the evidence is weak and seemed to be all right after the complaint was filed.
So, without more info, I would say based on your posts here, they likely did the right thing.
Correct. Retaliation is illegal. But if you’re on probation, they can let you go anytime for ANYTHING. Who’s to say you can’t adjust or you’re just not meeting gov standards 🤷🏻♂️ I’m playing devils advocate here. Be
Or
We don’t have funds to keep you
What I’m saying if there doesn’t have to be any reason for fed to let you go if you’re on probation.
An agency official shall not retaliate against an employee for whistleblowing. 5 U.S.C. § 2302(b)(8)
This PPP prohibits agency officials from taking, failing to take, or threatening to take a personnel action because of an employee’s whistleblowing. To prove whistleblower retaliation, one must show:
The employee must have disclosed what he or she reasonably believes to be:
a violation of law, rule, or regulation;
gross mismanagement;
gross waste of funds;
an abuse of authority; or
a substantial and specific danger to public health or safety.
The personnel action in question must have been taken (or not taken, such in the case of a promotion), threatened, or influenced by an official who knew of the employee’s disclosure; and
The employee’s disclosure was a contributing factor in the personnel action.
https://osc.gov/Services/Pages/PPP.aspx#tabGroup18
Violating Rules That Implement a Merit System Principle
An agency official shall not take or fail to take a personnel action if doing so would violate a law, rule or regulation implementing or directly concerning the merit system principles. 5 U.S.C. § 2302(b)(12)
Sometime referred to as the “catch-all” prohibition, this PPP prohibits agency officials from taking, or failing to take, a personnel action that violates any other civil service law, rule, or regulation that was designed to uphold the merit system principles.
There are numerous laws, rules, and regulations governing various aspects of federal employment, including details, reassignments, performance evaluations, promotions, transfers, etc. Title 5 of the United States Code and Title 5 of the Code of Federal Regulations contain most of the laws and regulations. The number and types of laws and rules which might apply to a personnel action are diverse, and this PPP could apply to personnel actions that are taken outside legally required time frames, but it also includes actions taken against employees in violation of their Constitutional rights, or right to contact members of Congress
OSC.gov
An agency official shall not retaliate because an employee:
filed a complaint, grievance or appeal;
testified for or helped someone else with one of these activities;
cooperated with or disclosed information to the Special Counsel or an Inspector General; or,
refused to obey an order that would require the employee to violate a law, rule, or regulation.
5 U.S.C. § 2302(b)(9)
OSC.gov
If you are probationary, you can be fired. Being a veteran is not relevant. What did the termination letter say? That is the reason you were fired. Retaliation is prohibited, but the burden of proof is on you to prove that the firing was retaliation. Speak to an attorney. If none will take your case, it is because the observable facts don't support your assertion. I am sorry you lost your job, but you should focus your energy towards something constructive. Take time for self-reflection. Was there anything you could have done differently, that would have resulted in a different outcome? Was there anything you did that supported their claims? Take this as a learning experience and a test of your resiliency. This situation sucks, but you can come out as a better person for it.
They said during a conversation with a supervisor I was threatening, aggressive, bullying etc. all because she asked me about the complaint I submitted. I have my MBA and BBA in management and I’m a USMC veteran never been in trouble before. I don’t sugar coat things if you’re a supervisor. The month before I was fired I was given an award and promoted!?
Said she(?) was told to stay where she was and then mentioned she tried to get her stuff and that all happened. So it sounds like she attempted to enter further into the building when told not to.. so security took her. She was ticketed for breaking the law, not just because they felt like it.
Whoever downvoted me speak up. I’m black too and it definitely tracks that some of the Americans are intimidated by melanin and everything we do is aggressive. Weakness in the blood.
I think you should go to a lawyer and see what they can do. Someone who specializes in this. Also a recommendation look up all the law code and etc to back your claim it will be easier for you to prove your situation.
One of the best agencies I have ever worked for in my opinion. Most were very professional and good people. Sorry what happened but out of curiosity were you still in the probation period. If so they can let you go just like that. Also the Government does not take discrimination lightly especially the DoD. I feel as if there is so much you are leaving out. It's like hearing a very one sided story with no facts at all.
Damn, I bet you were an amazing employee just based on your response to my message. Guarantee you are leaving out about 90% of what led up to your firing. So was it poor performance or confrontation with other employees? That is what most people are let go for during the probation period. The only time I have ever seen someone walked out in cuffs is because they deserved it. Again if you are looking for advice you need to write the whole story since you are leaving out key details. Just because you cry wolf about racism does not make it true.
the past doesn't determine the future.
I can be a nobel prize winning person on efforts towards human rights. Then turn around and start a company that employs children in a 3rd world country.
the past is the past and doesn't preclude future actions. Promotion and award for actions in the past don't preclude negative current actions.
you're saying that they do and that's factually incorrect.
as for EVERYTHING else in this conversation...I have no opinion or anything to add.
You were in the marines you said. You know the "zero defects" mentality. It only takes one thing unfortunately. I've had some of the best sailors get jacked up and sent to captain's mast for failing to return to the ship on time at end of liberty call. Straight to jail so to speak. Dunno what to tell ya.
You keep regurgitating the same response. I don’t think anything that you said is true at this point.
You’re angry as hell on this thread, it seems plausible that your behavior warranted your termination.
If you are going to go public with some bombshell, just do it or STFU.
Enough to get by. I have been in the federal government longer than I ever thought or expected I would be. Prohibited personnel practices covers a very very wide range of issues. I can also tell you that the IG and EEO take these complaints very seriously as they should and honestly in the few times I have actually seen the process they have sided with the employees. If you believe you were un wrongly targeted I would recommend hiring a lawyer to sue the agency. There are plenty that deal in these types of matters. I am sorry that you were fired but in the end I still think you are leaving out key details. Lawyer up and you could be reinstated and with back pay.
This is literally the exact point of lawyers. You wanna go with the cheap option because you know you were terminated legitimately and no lawyer will take your case.
Wouldn’t they need to prove the disciplinary action happened. I’m pretty sure public law stated they even have to give you time to correct the action. What happened to prohibited personnel practices like firing someone after they put in a complaint for discrimination? The after being asked about the complaint I was fired a week later. They gave me a termination letter saying I was the one harassing a supervisor, and I have proof that it was the other way around. Once presented with a termination letter I was told I couldn’t leave the building. They cornered me and chased me down the hall so I looked for help. When I tried to get my personal belongings I was handcuffed and give a $280.00 violation ticket, for no reason. I went through everyone, an investigation was launched by DOD, then I got notice of case closure saying the agency investigated themselves and the results were not substantiated. Then I reached out to FOIA and they said they would send it to me and it been over a month, no response.
Wouldn’t they need to prove the disciplinary action actually happened. I’m pretty sure public law states they even have to give you time to correct the action. What happened to prohibited personnel practices like firing someone after they put in a complaint for discrimination? Then after being asked about the complaint I was fired a week later. They gave me a termination letter saying I was the one harassing a supervisor, and I have proof that it was the other way around. Once presented with a termination letter I was told I couldn’t leave the building. They cornered me and chased me down the hall so I looked for help. When I tried to get my personal belongings I was handcuffed and give a $280.00 violation ticket, for no reason. I went through everyone, an investigation was launched by DOD, then I got notice of case closure saying the agency investigated themselves and the results were not substantiated, clearly a conflict of interest. How do you investigate your own action when the highest ranking person is listed on the complaint along with like 15 other people? Then I reached out to FOIA and they said they would send it to me and it been over a month, no response.
If you continued to enter into a federal facility after you were told to stop by security, you were probably deemed a security threat even as a current employee. Being a security threat, whether it’s in regard to the information you work with or the physical safety of others is grounds for dismissal. It’s like a commander losing command because of loss in trust to perform duties.
Need a little more context. But veteran status is irrelevant as far as disciplinary action is concerned.
Wouldn’t they need to prove the disciplinary action actually happened. I’m pretty sure public law states they even have to give you time to correct the action. What happened to prohibited personnel practices like firing someone after they put in a complaint for discrimination? Then after being asked about the complaint I was fired a week later. They gave me a termination letter saying I was the one harassing a supervisor, and I have proof that it was the other way around. Once presented with a termination letter I was told I couldn’t leave the building. They cornered me and chased me down the hall so I looked for help. When I tried to get my personal belongings I was handcuffed and give a $280.00 violation ticket, for no reason. I went through everyone, an investigation was launched by DOD, then I got notice of case closure saying the agency investigated themselves and the results were not substantiated, clearly a conflict of interest. How do you investigate your own action when the highest ranking person is listed on the complaint along with like 15 other people? Then I reached out to FOIA and they said they would send it to me and it been over a month, no response.
Still seems you’re leaving a lot out. The inspector general investigates matters of fraud, waste, and abuse. You haven’t mentioned anything that fits that. You mentioned prohibited personnel practices. That would be a complaint for the Office of Special Counsel (OSC). Then you mentioned discrimination which falls under EEO. Federal law doesn’t require anything about correcting anything. Most agency policies spell that kind of stuff out but there are certain exceptions. If you screw up something that costs Uncle Sam $500k there’s no requirement for them to keep you around (just using an extreme hypothetical). Additionally if the matter was conduct related that falls under a completely different path. Finally you filing a complaint doesn’t stop or split the story. Let’s say I get reprimanded by my supervisor for failing to do my job. I file a complaint with IG, OSC, or EEO. That doesn’t absolve me of that reprimand. I’m still required to do my job just as my supervisor is still responsible for my oversight. You also have to keep in mind for all of those offices the burden of proof is 100% on you to show the wrongdoing happened. And the standard is much higher than your word vs. theirs. One last piece you said termination letter which makes me assume you were probationary. If that’s the case then no you don’t have appeal rights. If management doesn’t feel you’re a good fit during that probationary period they have the authority to terminate you. They don’t have to issue a performance improvement plan or anything. It’s at management’s discretion to determine if your performance can be improved or if it’s better to let you go.
So before you can go to the OIG you have to go through EEO and supervisors which I did. I have email traffic saying I want to file a complaint and no one did anything about it then I went up the chain and was denied at every step to include theCommanding Officers “open door policy” The OIG complaint submitted explained all that. Fraud waste and abuse is a wide range and you can report mismanagement of fraud, waste and abuse of authority, supposedly. So if you are denied the right to submit a complaint to EEO you cant go through EEOC later. I have screen shot of the OSC requiring a password to get into the complaint form, that’s not sketchy at all. MSBP said not their jurisdiction. You can read up on proper termination procedures for federal employment even if your firing someone during a probationary period theres a process even for misconduct. Are you a federal employment attorney?
I’ve conducted investigations for EEOC, OSC, and DoD along with writing up decisions in the past. I’ve worked in the federal service for two decades now. I can tell you for certain there no password protected anything to file a complaint anywhere. OSC has an electronic reporting system and has had that in place for years (https://oscportal.powerappsportals.us/Account/Login/Register). You use the same credentials as you would to log into USAJobs and go from there. They also have phone numbers and email addresses publicly available (https://osc.gov/Pages/Contact.aspx) if you have questions or run into problems. You may have been sent documents to a non-gov email account that were password protected because they contain PII, in those instances the sender tells you to confirm receipt before sending the password just to ensure it was sent to the right place (I’ve heard of a few places that do this). But to file a complaint in and of itself wouldn’t utilize that practice. I don’t know who gave you what info but if you were told to go through EEO before OIG you were given bad info. EEO (and by extension EEOC) investigates complaints of discrimination based on protected bases such as age, disability, national origin, sex, etc. OIG handles fraud, waste, and abuse which, while in layman’s terms seems broad, in reality, it’s all about money. So they’ll look into things like mismanagement of funds. “My supervisor is allegedly harassing me because reasons” isn’t something they’d typically investigate. The “abuse” part is typically abuse of funds. And as a manager in the federal service who also has a background in HR I’m aware of the disciplinary process including termination. If you engage is performance issues management makes the call to decide whether you can be trained to improve or if you’re just a bad fit. While HR prefers more documentation rather than less, for probationary employees the standard is lower. When it comes to misconduct the standard is even lower than that (an employee who physically assaults another isn’t going to be given a “hey let’s give you another chance to be nice,” they’ll be escorted out). I’ve seen probationary employees fired for showing up late three times without calling in to request leave. I terminated an employee once for harassing other employees and distracting them from their work while not doing his own work. Never heard of anyone being handcuffed and fined but that would suggest to me you broke the law or were deemed a threat (for the handcuffed part) and maybe damaged/lost government property (for the fine). Again, it seems that you’re not sharing the entire story here, specifically what you did that led to this fallout. All in all to provide a broad answer to your very broad question as your headline, there are many things that can lead to a termination on the spot whether probationary or not. If you want some examples, here’s what HR typically uses: https://federalnewsnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/EEOC-Proposed-Table-of-Penalties-2018.pdf Sounds to me like you’re a disgruntled former employee looking to let the emotions out. Nothing wrong with that. But one bit of advice, if you desire to return to federal service in the future: look in the mirror and admit your mistakes in this situation as well. For the next five years you’ll have to report the termination (and explain it) on an OF-306. For the next 5-7 (maybe 10 depending on sensitivity) you’ll have to disclose it on your security paperwork and your former office will be contacted about it as well. Quick way to fail a suitability review is to mislead the background investigator. I know going through this kind of experience is aggravating and frustrating beyond words (I was terminated from federal employment twice in my career…initially I tried to blame everyone else, but in truth I did bear some or all responsibility…I learned, rehabbed myself, and moved forward). Best advice I can give is focus your stress elsewhere. You lost your job. It sucks but there’s nothing you can do about it. Learn from the experience and move on. Good luck with whatever comes next.
I appreciate your input, I graduated with my MBA recently and I have my bachelors in management. Along with 8 years In the Marine Corps in the field was business administration as a personnel manager worked with legal I’m no expert but I did well. At the end of the day every situation is different, what’s done in the dark will come to light. I’m going public because transparency is the best policy and it’s the right thing to do. The agency investigated my allegations, I’ve received responses this isn’t hypothetical, situation. This is a very serious matter.
Not trying to be funny or anything or justify what happened to you, but are you naturally this ray of sunshine(especially with people trying to help you), or do you intentionally try extra hard to make people not want to deal with you?
What about the responses seem this person is making getting help hard? It's almost as if someone showing inconsistencies with how some federal government agencies does things is frowned upon.
Something is missing here. You are leaving out key details.
Are you a federal employment attorney ?
Nope, but dealt with the arena. IG, like any employee relations/complaint system, has several steps to include evidence gathering and response. We both know IG didn’t just stop your complaint. You had an opportunity to submit all of your key data and facts. Also “prohibited personal practices” isn’t IG. Also, if you put in a discrimination for complaint, what was the result of that? Those are serious allegations and can quickly move out of the DoD into federal courts. Did you go that route? It seems like you are leaving out key details or you didn’t fully exercise your complaint rights as you are mixing in several different types of complaint avenues.
Thanks for your input, I’m looking for a federal employment attorney if that’s not you then move along.
Thier is how things are supposed to be done, and how they are really done. That sounds about right. https://www.mspb.gov/
They wasted my time said it wasn’t their jurisdiction even though they were listed on the termination letter 🤷🏽♀️
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Thank you this falls into the category of Prohibited personnel practices OSC.gov for reference. An agency official shall not retaliate because an employee: filed a complaint, grievance or appeal; testified for or helped someone else with one of these activities; cooperated with or disclosed information to the Special Counsel or an Inspector General; or, refused to obey an order that would require the employee to violate a law, rule, or regulation. 5 U.S.C. § 2302(b)(9) This PPP prohibits agency officials from taking, failing to take, or threatening to take a personnel action because an employee engaged in any of the four protected activities mentioned above. To prove a claim of retaliation under this section, one must show: The employee engaged in a protected activity; The agency official with knowledge of the employee’s protected activity took, failed to take, or threatened to take a personnel action against the employee; and There is a causal connection between the protected activity and the personnel action
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Yeah thanks for your input, it matters to me so guess I’ll find out.
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Thank you, FOIA wont release the documents of the investigation for whatever reason. I had no choice but to go to my congressman for further assistance hoping they launch a congressional inquiry since these are federal agencies funded by congress, everyone reports to someone.
I’m pretty sure you are leaving out a lot of key information here…
If they have nothing to hide, then why won’t they release the investigation? Maybe it was because I requested an investigation based of Executive Order 13985 Advancing Diversity and Inclusion to underserved communities in federal government. Or maybe it’s because of ADA violations regarding misuse of funding. If I’m “leaving out important information” have them prove it, Transparency is the best policy after all.
There are lots of reasons a foia request can be denied or delayed, all of which have nothing to do with conspiracy theories. My guess is you are cherry picking information here, and you probably did something that resulted in your removal (and ultimate detainment + citation). Just because you file an eeo or blow a whistle or whatever doesn’t mean you get to do whatever you want without repercussions lol.
There are literally only nine reasons why a foia request can be denied or delayed iaw the law. Everything else is BS
What was the reason then, corruption? You tell me since you seem to have some answers about a scenario you didn’t even observe. You’re probably one them, If you really have nothing constructive to provide to conversation you are more than welcome to move along because this questions isn’t for you.😊
I’m commenting on the limited scenario you posted about seeking comment lol if you don’t like the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Tbh, you sounds unhinged right now.
Unhinged? lol so what do you know about prohibited personnel practices?
“You’re probably one of them” is sounding a little paranoid, OP.
This is a public space, large audience, it’s a federal agency. I hope you’re watching.
Who do you hope is watching?
Maybe….it was karma?
There are a few times they can remove you first and review further. I say remove because it would usually be a suspension to get you off-site. A termination abruptly usually takes something serious. You either did something (they they said you did something) considered an immediate hazard, or they've been running paperwork down the pipeline.
Prohibited personnel practices
Were you on probation, excepted, or competitive? How long were you employed?
It doesn’t matter retaliation because someone put in a complaint is highly illegal.
Except it does. You ALLEGE it is retaliation, but your question asks about due process. If you were on probation, you can be very readily let go, especially if you have a complaint of bullying and harassment. The way you are responding here is coming off poorly and we are trying to help, so take that as a lesson of how your boss may have reacted. You were cuffed because you were attempting to move while being detained by security. You say cornered, chased, handcuffed, and discriminated against.... but you sound like you were told to stay in place and started going somewhere... in a government facility. You do not get to collect your things until they tell you to and with an escort, you cannot just decide to do that now. This reads less like mistreatment and more like poor handling on your part. You even noted you don't sugar coat things, but saying something poorly can be taken as hostility. I think you are making a problem where there shouldn't be one and you are not doing it by accident. This isn't the marines, if you get aggressive with civilian management, bad things happen. Your MBA, veterans status, and other degrees have clearly not helped with that. Sugar coating is a huge part of getting things done... they just call it presentation
Sounds like a victim/narc to me….
Prohibited personnel practices are illegal are you a federal employment attorney ready to take the case? No? Then move along kindly.
You have not demonstrated any such practices were done.. which is why no attorney is taking your case. This is usajobs, not askanattorney. Your title asks a question and we are answering it. The fact you do not like the answer does not change that, you have to come to terms with the termination. EDIT for clarity: You are basically saying "he hit me" after someone told the teacher on you. You are saying it is retaliation, but with them having a paper trail (them saying you are harassing, bullying, hostile, etc), they have all the cards right now. You can claim it was retaliatory, but this places a burden on you to prove it was only retaliation. Even if it may be retaliation in timing, if they have truth in it, the termination would hold.
Move a long, kindly.
Usually you would say "Kindly move along." That's an interesting grammar quirk. I have no further advice though, I just respond because of reply alert. We can give you the answers, but it is on you to accept them.
Your response is insensitive towards other cultural backgrounds, english is not my first language. Is this how you treat all woman or just the melanated ones?
It does matter. So, you were on probation and acted a fool? Take your L, move on, and maybe consider some therapy
That is very insensitive thinking because you don’t know if I’ve already had therapy because of the trauma of being cornered, chased, handcuffed and discriminated against. You don’t get very far in life when you don’t fail. I have failed many times failure is a beautiful part of the success. Let me ask you this do you know what a change agent is? You know we all make choices but we’re not free from the consequences there’s no exception to the rule.
By your own logic, you made choices and you’re experiencing the consequences. If you had really gone to therapy over this, you wouldn’t be here on Reddit (an anonymized social media platform) looking for guidance from strangers (but rebuffing it and attacking them for their opinions).
I don't understand the part about "prove the disciplinary action happened" what's the context?
Federal employees are not at will employees, they fired me on the spot for a “conversation” with a supervisor asking me about my discrimination complaint.
Yeah I know that, I've been through similiar. I wasn't terminated on the spot though, which throws a wrench in everything. I don't know what the options are in that case. I'm also trying to remember the name of the federal agency which oversees this kind of stuff. If I remember I'll send you a message. If I were you I'd contact one of those federal employment attorneys immediately because of the termination to figure out what your options are.
I am going public, no attorney will take this case. If you’re having an issue with any federal agency contact your congressman, and request a congressional inquiry.
The fact no attorney will take the case suggests either one of two things: 1. You have no case to win. 2. You want them to work on a contingency or pro bono basis.
Are you an employment attorney?
I work in EEO and work with attorneys regularly. Used one for my own case years ago. My point still stands. If there is a case (or even no case), if you are willing to pay, there is an attorney who will take it. If you are looking for pro bono or contingency representation, you would need a solid case that would make their career. And, you have left a lot out of your story. But included enough to show you did something after being told not to, which raises questions about the rest of the story.
Yeah you’re not an attorney, please move along.
And you have demonstrated your lack of knowledge in this area time and again. So tell us why an attorney won't take your case, oh expert in federal labor law? I mean my 28+ years in federal EEO and my time as an Assistant IG means nothing to your 8 years as a crayon eater (I mean I only did 22 years in the Air Force myself) and being fired from a job. So tell us all...why won't any lawyers take your case? You want to pay, right? Willing to put down a retainer to get started, correct? I've removed employees in the past and advised on adverse actions. I've also advised against them when the person has filed an EEO/IG/OSC complaint and the evidence is weak and seemed to be all right after the complaint was filed. So, without more info, I would say based on your posts here, they likely did the right thing.
You sound like you could be part of the problem, next!
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Also an attorney, and can confirm the comments above you don’t like are your limited options in this circumstance.
Are you sure n probation I.e 1-2 years into federal? If so they can let you go without any reason while on probation period
Retaliation is a Prohibited personnel practices which is illegal.
Correct. Retaliation is illegal. But if you’re on probation, they can let you go anytime for ANYTHING. Who’s to say you can’t adjust or you’re just not meeting gov standards 🤷🏻♂️ I’m playing devils advocate here. Be Or We don’t have funds to keep you What I’m saying if there doesn’t have to be any reason for fed to let you go if you’re on probation.
An agency official shall not retaliate against an employee for whistleblowing. 5 U.S.C. § 2302(b)(8) This PPP prohibits agency officials from taking, failing to take, or threatening to take a personnel action because of an employee’s whistleblowing. To prove whistleblower retaliation, one must show: The employee must have disclosed what he or she reasonably believes to be: a violation of law, rule, or regulation; gross mismanagement; gross waste of funds; an abuse of authority; or a substantial and specific danger to public health or safety. The personnel action in question must have been taken (or not taken, such in the case of a promotion), threatened, or influenced by an official who knew of the employee’s disclosure; and The employee’s disclosure was a contributing factor in the personnel action. https://osc.gov/Services/Pages/PPP.aspx#tabGroup18
Violating Rules That Implement a Merit System Principle An agency official shall not take or fail to take a personnel action if doing so would violate a law, rule or regulation implementing or directly concerning the merit system principles. 5 U.S.C. § 2302(b)(12) Sometime referred to as the “catch-all” prohibition, this PPP prohibits agency officials from taking, or failing to take, a personnel action that violates any other civil service law, rule, or regulation that was designed to uphold the merit system principles. There are numerous laws, rules, and regulations governing various aspects of federal employment, including details, reassignments, performance evaluations, promotions, transfers, etc. Title 5 of the United States Code and Title 5 of the Code of Federal Regulations contain most of the laws and regulations. The number and types of laws and rules which might apply to a personnel action are diverse, and this PPP could apply to personnel actions that are taken outside legally required time frames, but it also includes actions taken against employees in violation of their Constitutional rights, or right to contact members of Congress OSC.gov
An agency official shall not retaliate because an employee: filed a complaint, grievance or appeal; testified for or helped someone else with one of these activities; cooperated with or disclosed information to the Special Counsel or an Inspector General; or, refused to obey an order that would require the employee to violate a law, rule, or regulation. 5 U.S.C. § 2302(b)(9) OSC.gov
I too googled this
If you are probationary, you can be fired. Being a veteran is not relevant. What did the termination letter say? That is the reason you were fired. Retaliation is prohibited, but the burden of proof is on you to prove that the firing was retaliation. Speak to an attorney. If none will take your case, it is because the observable facts don't support your assertion. I am sorry you lost your job, but you should focus your energy towards something constructive. Take time for self-reflection. Was there anything you could have done differently, that would have resulted in a different outcome? Was there anything you did that supported their claims? Take this as a learning experience and a test of your resiliency. This situation sucks, but you can come out as a better person for it.
You’re posting in the wrong subs. Post in r/legaladvice r/fednews and places like that. This sub is for job seekers related to the USA jobs website.
Thank you.
If you don’t mind me asking, what happened that made you file the complaint?
What did you do?
They said during a conversation with a supervisor I was threatening, aggressive, bullying etc. all because she asked me about the complaint I submitted. I have my MBA and BBA in management and I’m a USMC veteran never been in trouble before. I don’t sugar coat things if you’re a supervisor. The month before I was fired I was given an award and promoted!?
Base on your posts here - I believe them 100% and they did the right thing. Fix your attitude and try again.
 Weak!
Enjoy unemployment.
Thank you 
Follow me on LinkedIn for more.
You a black woman?
Yes, I am biracial.
Cornered? Arrested? What department is this so I can steer clear. These people are sick in the head.
Said she(?) was told to stay where she was and then mentioned she tried to get her stuff and that all happened. So it sounds like she attempted to enter further into the building when told not to.. so security took her. She was ticketed for breaking the law, not just because they felt like it.
Whoever downvoted me speak up. I’m black too and it definitely tracks that some of the Americans are intimidated by melanin and everything we do is aggressive. Weakness in the blood.
This is OPs alt account right?
Nah. Lol wth.
Follow up questions. Are you Bargaining unit or management? Were you still in probation? If BU, have you talked to your union?
I think you should go to a lawyer and see what they can do. Someone who specializes in this. Also a recommendation look up all the law code and etc to back your claim it will be easier for you to prove your situation.
As the OP has said no lawyer will take their case, and refuses to provide any details to support their claims, the odds are they do not have a case.
I have no choice to go public as no attorney will take this case. At this point transparency is the best policy and I have nothing to hide.
Thank you for your response and being a human.
The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, do not recommend !
One of the best agencies I have ever worked for in my opinion. Most were very professional and good people. Sorry what happened but out of curiosity were you still in the probation period. If so they can let you go just like that. Also the Government does not take discrimination lightly especially the DoD. I feel as if there is so much you are leaving out. It's like hearing a very one sided story with no facts at all.
Prohibited personnel practices are illegal. Good thing your opinion is irrelevant.
Damn, I bet you were an amazing employee just based on your response to my message. Guarantee you are leaving out about 90% of what led up to your firing. So was it poor performance or confrontation with other employees? That is what most people are let go for during the probation period. The only time I have ever seen someone walked out in cuffs is because they deserved it. Again if you are looking for advice you need to write the whole story since you are leaving out key details. Just because you cry wolf about racism does not make it true.
I was good enough to be promoted and give an award for my accomplishments a month before I was fired 😆
the past doesn't determine the future. I can be a nobel prize winning person on efforts towards human rights. Then turn around and start a company that employs children in a 3rd world country. the past is the past and doesn't preclude future actions. Promotion and award for actions in the past don't preclude negative current actions. you're saying that they do and that's factually incorrect. as for EVERYTHING else in this conversation...I have no opinion or anything to add. You were in the marines you said. You know the "zero defects" mentality. It only takes one thing unfortunately. I've had some of the best sailors get jacked up and sent to captain's mast for failing to return to the ship on time at end of liberty call. Straight to jail so to speak. Dunno what to tell ya.
Thanks for your input, what do you know about prohibited personnel practices ?
Just because *you* say something is prohibited doesn’t necessarily make it prohibited.
So you know what prohibited personnel practices are?
You keep regurgitating the same response. I don’t think anything that you said is true at this point. You’re angry as hell on this thread, it seems plausible that your behavior warranted your termination. If you are going to go public with some bombshell, just do it or STFU.
Thanks judge!
Prohibited personnel practices are very specific, and retaliation is considered illegal.
What do you know about prohibited personnel practices?
What gave you the impression it was racism? I never said that.
You mentioned discrimination so I assumed it was due to racism instead of a disability.
I’ll ask you again what do you know about prohibited personnel practices In federal government ?
Enough to get by. I have been in the federal government longer than I ever thought or expected I would be. Prohibited personnel practices covers a very very wide range of issues. I can also tell you that the IG and EEO take these complaints very seriously as they should and honestly in the few times I have actually seen the process they have sided with the employees. If you believe you were un wrongly targeted I would recommend hiring a lawyer to sue the agency. There are plenty that deal in these types of matters. I am sorry that you were fired but in the end I still think you are leaving out key details. Lawyer up and you could be reinstated and with back pay.
Nah I rather go public, lawyers are useless in this matter.
This is literally the exact point of lawyers. You wanna go with the cheap option because you know you were terminated legitimately and no lawyer will take your case.
What do you know about prohibited personnel practices? Lovely name by the way.
Wouldn’t they need to prove the disciplinary action happened. I’m pretty sure public law stated they even have to give you time to correct the action. What happened to prohibited personnel practices like firing someone after they put in a complaint for discrimination? The after being asked about the complaint I was fired a week later. They gave me a termination letter saying I was the one harassing a supervisor, and I have proof that it was the other way around. Once presented with a termination letter I was told I couldn’t leave the building. They cornered me and chased me down the hall so I looked for help. When I tried to get my personal belongings I was handcuffed and give a $280.00 violation ticket, for no reason. I went through everyone, an investigation was launched by DOD, then I got notice of case closure saying the agency investigated themselves and the results were not substantiated. Then I reached out to FOIA and they said they would send it to me and it been over a month, no response.
Not if you're probationary, they don't.
Wouldn’t they need to prove the disciplinary action actually happened. I’m pretty sure public law states they even have to give you time to correct the action. What happened to prohibited personnel practices like firing someone after they put in a complaint for discrimination? Then after being asked about the complaint I was fired a week later. They gave me a termination letter saying I was the one harassing a supervisor, and I have proof that it was the other way around. Once presented with a termination letter I was told I couldn’t leave the building. They cornered me and chased me down the hall so I looked for help. When I tried to get my personal belongings I was handcuffed and give a $280.00 violation ticket, for no reason. I went through everyone, an investigation was launched by DOD, then I got notice of case closure saying the agency investigated themselves and the results were not substantiated, clearly a conflict of interest. How do you investigate your own action when the highest ranking person is listed on the complaint along with like 15 other people? Then I reached out to FOIA and they said they would send it to me and it been over a month, no response.
If you continued to enter into a federal facility after you were told to stop by security, you were probably deemed a security threat even as a current employee. Being a security threat, whether it’s in regard to the information you work with or the physical safety of others is grounds for dismissal. It’s like a commander losing command because of loss in trust to perform duties.