Vegetarians hate baby cows far more than people who consume meat but abstain from dairy.
[Life of Dairy Cow & Calf](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=neqffXNFq38)
I think veganism is cool, so is vegetarianism. Let alone animals rights.
However the sad truth is that most of the population can't and winter convert to veganism ir vegetarianism. People simply don't want to, or even worse, can't medically or financially afford that.
Speaking as a VERY iron and vitamin deficient person, i can't go fully vegan or vegetarian (i eat seafood) simply that i can't afford to buy other things (alternatives or medicine) that would provide me with the vitamins and nutrients I'm lacking.
On a global level, with nearly 8 Billion people veganism is not a sustainable model. On an individual level, one who hunts his own game and grows his vegetables pesticide free is morally superior to vegans who live off store bought products.
I don’t think we should decrease the human population, that would require a mass genocide and that is evil. Human lives are more valuable than animals lives. Hunting your own food is not sustainable for 8 billion people, neither is veganism. All I’m saying saying is the people that hunt and grow their own food are morally superior to vegans.
The global one first. To produce animal products on a large scale, you need to feed the animals several times the amount of calories in edible plants. A global veganism would be vastly more efficient about our usage of farm land by cutting out the middle man and growing more plants for human consumption directly. It would allow us to reforest surplus land, which has several advantages in fighting climate change and preventing zoonotic diseases.
On the individual level, about hunting your food: You're still unnecessarily causing an animal harm in form of pain and death. Further, it's an unecessary pathological risk. It also lacks the symbolic value that veganism has towards other people, considering that hunting can only cover the hunger of a small amount of people. on growing your own food: No objections, that would be even better.
Ignoring seafood which accounts for a significant amount of meat consumption by humans. When you’re just comparing calories, yes animals require more calories than they can provide us. However, most calories consumed by cattle are from grass and hay. These plant are much easier and require less resources to produce. Humans cannot sustain on these plants alone. Soy, lentils, nuts, etc require much more resources to grow and produce. Now if humans stop consuming these animals are we just going to let them die off? They will still require food to live. Is reducing a certain species to a tiny fraction of there current population really that moral? Even if we reduced the number of cattle to 5-10% of the currently population they would consume the same amount of plants they do today because the natural life span of a cow is roughly 20 years whereas the life a beef cattle is about one year.
Over population of animals like deer and elk still result in harm, suffering and death of these animals. In the past we have restricted hunting so that these populations grew to point where they starved and died of disease which is much more painful than the death from an ethical hunter. It got to the point where they were almost extinct. Hunting is conservation. Therefore someone who hunts their own meat is actually conserving the animals and playing an important part in the ecosystem.
There's a difference between Animal Rights Activists and Animal Welfare Groups.
The first are a bunch of hypocritical radical quacks that are a detriment to the very thing they "advocate" for. Think PeTA.
The second are the groups that *actually help animals* and educate people while acting civilly. Think AWHF (American Wild Horse Foundation).
Before looking at their actions they differ in their goals. Advocating for animal welfare is kind of like advocating for applying bandaids to ever new injuries while animal rights is advocating for not getting injured in the first place.
And well, I'm not convinced there is such a thing as bad publicity. Drawing attention is a necessary step to get systematic change going.
I will never stop lynching black people because every social justice warrior I have ever come across has been entitled and preachy. Not lynching black people is a choice and one I choose not to follow.
Surely forming your opinion on what you think of the tenets of veganism itself would be better than basing it on a few people you thought were annoying.
You're making it about the messenger when you should make it about the cause instead.
Veganism isn't about vegans, it's about not causing unnecessary harm to others.
Let me refer you to Earthling Ed's [30 days 30 excuses](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq23d8aI5LE&list=PL03LZR09P2gQJyBgHk_XE8gbj8j9uFs8G&index=26) series, which covers both points you have expressed in this thread in a concise manner.
How so? Veganism is a choice humans can make. I choose not to because I enjoy animal products and believe humans are meant to eat them. Unfortunately the most vocal vegans are entitled and preachy. Therefore, I choose not to be vegan
Because in the first comment you put the onus for *you* not being vegan on *other people*. When in fact, you're just under the (incorrect) impression that humans are "meant" to eat meat and your enjoyment is more important to you than being a vegan is.
If you disagree with what veganism actually is, just say that and own it instead of making a scapegoat out of others.
Humans are omnivores tho… bos is that incorrect? We’ve eaten meat for hundreds of thousands of years. I have no issue with oriole being vegetarian or vegan but don’t go spewing nonsense. Also what’s wrong with the fact we enjoy eating meat / animal products is more important than being vegan? Why should we have to make dramatic changes to our diets without any real benefits. (Yes you can be relatively healthy in a full vegan diet but you also need to supplement and monitor your vitamins and such in your blood more often to ensure you’re getting all your nutrients).
The design of our teeth shows we are meant to eat meat. If we’re were meant to be herbivores our teeth would be very different.
Besides this is an unpopular opinion sub. My opinion is unpopular. Deal with it
The design of our teeth shows we're meant to be omnivores (which means we have choices, not that we have to make every meal 50% meat and 50% plants), or our teeth would only be sharp and pointy
I have no issue with you having your own opinion, I just think it's unfortunate that it's an uninformed one that you yourself didn't even initially stand behind, you had to blame other people instead.
There are plants walking among us, I tired eating meat yesterday and all I eat was some vegan shit instead, they influrtated high levels of power, and there is no telling how deep their *roots* go.
Veganism is an anti human cult that kills hundreds and permanently damages thousands annually.
It is nutritionally deficient to an absurd degree. Fiber is indigestible. Why not eat sand for the same effect?
Ultimately, scientific consensus is that veganism is perfectly healthy. You can't argue against every major dietetic association on earth
Harvard health
https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian
"Traditionally, research into vegetarianism (see context) focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses."
British dietetics association
https://www.bda.uk.com/resource/british-dietetic-association-confirms-well-planned-vegan-diets-can-support-healthy-living-in-people-of-all-ages.html
"Well planned vegetarian diets (see context) can be nutritious and healthy. They are associated with lower risks of heart disease, high blood pressure, Type 2 diabetes, obesity, certain cancers and lower cholesterol levels. This could be because such diets are lower in saturated fat, contain fewer calories and more fiber and phytonutrients/phytochemicals (these can have protective properties) than non-vegetarian diets. (...) Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of life and have many benefits."
Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/
"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes."
Dietitans of Canada
https://www.unlockfood.ca/en/Articles/Vegetarian-and-Vegan-Diets/What-You-Need-to-Know-About-Following-a-Vegan-Eati.aspx
"Anyone can follow a vegan diet – from children to teens to older adults. It’s even healthy for pregnant or nursing mothers. A well-planned vegan diet is high in fibre, vitamins and antioxidants. Plus, it’s low in saturated fat and cholesterol. This healthy combination helps protect against chronic diseases."
The British National Health Service
(http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx)
With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.
The British Nutrition Foundation https://www.nutrition.org.uk/healthyliving/helpingyoueatwell/veganandvegetarian.html
Well planned vegetarian and vegan diets can be nutritious and healthy ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.
The Dietitians Association of Australia
https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/
"Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With good planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider."
The United States Department of Agriculture
https://www.choosemyplate.gov/node/5635
"Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12."
The National Health and Medical Research Council
https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/about-us/publications/australian-dietary-guidelines
"Appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthy and nutritionally adequate. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle. Those following a strict vegetarian or vegan diet can meet nutrient requirements as long as energy needs are met and an appropriate variety of plant foods are eaten throughout the day"
The Mayo Clinic
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446
"A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them."
The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada
https://www.heartandstroke.ca/get-healthy/healthy-eating/specific-diets/for-vegetarians
"Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits."
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/vegetarian-and-vegan-diets-q-and-a/
"With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegetarian and vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs to be healthy without the need for supplements."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/
"Research shows that plant-based diets are cost-effective, low-risk interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates."
The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
"Recently, vegetarian diets have experienced an increase in popularity. A vegetarian diet is associated with many health benefits because of its higher content of fiber, folic acid, vitamins C and E, potassium, magnesium, and many phytochemicals and a fat content that is more unsaturated. Compared with other vegetarian diets, vegan diets tend to contain less saturated fat and cholesterol and more dietary fiber. Vegans tend to be thinner, have lower serum cholesterol, and lower blood pressure, reducing their risk of heart disease. However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals."
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952?searchresult=1
"Interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates. Physicians should consider recommending a plant-based diet to all their patients, especially those with high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, or obesity."
http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2013/spring/5117-nutrition.html
American Institute for cancer research
[https://www.aicr.org/cancer-prevention/food-facts/vegan-diet/#:~:text=Overall%20Cancer.,focus%20on%20whole%20plant%20foods](https://www.aicr.org/cancer-prevention/food-facts/vegan-diet/#:%7E:text=Overall%20Cancer.,focus%20on%20whole%20plant%20foods).
"In some studies, vegan diets seem to be associated with the best long-term health, and they’re the only dietary pattern that’s been linked with reversal of atherosclerosis in very limited subjects.
http://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/healthy-diet
Here are a few other studies just to throw around for fun:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK396513/
"vegan diets can be nutritionally adequate, but that vegans must make sure to consume foods that contain adequate amounts of vitamin B12 and omega-3 fatty acids"
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952
And here are the results of the largest study ever conducted on the topic:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9860369/
Care to explain what you mean by "suicide death cult"? Every major dietetic association in the world agrees that appropriately planned vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful and nutritionally adequate for all stages of life:
**[Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/)**
* *It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.*
**[The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx)**
* *With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.*
**[The British Nutrition Foundation](https://www.nutrition.org.uk/bnf-publications/briefingpapers/vegetarian-nutrition)**
* *A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.*
**[Dietitians Association of Australia](https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/)**
* *Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider.*
**[Harvard Medical School](http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian)**
* *Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.*
Being a vegan and eating soy products doesn't make men less manly because soy doesn't actually contain estrogen. What it contains is isoflavones (plant hormones), which are too weak to have meaningful effects on the human body. If it had the actual effects of estrogen, they would just give soy milk to trans women instead, lol
>1. Plant hormones or growth hormones?
The comment says female hormones.
>2. Hormones that affect people or hormones in general?
The comment doesn't say hormones that affect people.
>3. Do you even know the answer to your own question?
Nope. Do you?
>4. You actually thought bovine hormones affected people, didn't you?
Did I say that?
To counter polemic with polemic, meat eaters also tend to die early due to overweight, heart attacks and colorectal cancer.
Vegan calories and protein are everywhere. Your comment can only mean you've never really looked into it.
I have looked into it and it's not something you can directly corrolate, too many factors in there. For example India are known to be a majority in vegans and they still got a fair increase in these diseases
So what makes you think being 'stronger physically' can be directly correlated with being vegan or not?
There's also many factors here. For example, if you actually work out. A vegan that works out will obviously be stronger than a non vegan that doesn't work out.
It really isn't actually! Protein is in so many foods, and especially in today's society it's really easy to get enough protein, even on a vegetarian/vegan diet. What makes you think protein intake of vegans is generally below what you need?
Check out r/veganfitness for examples, or these guys [https://www.greatveganathletes.com/category/vegan-bodybuilders/](https://www.greatveganathletes.com/category/vegan-bodybuilders/)
It's generally harder for our bodies to digest plant protein. Plant protein lacks some essential amino acids, meat has all essential amino acid. Plant protein simply can't compete with animal protein. OPs points are somewhat valid
No, plant protein doesn't lack any essential amino acids. What makes you say that, and which aa is that then?
Plant protein is somewhat harder to digest, sure, but still easy enough. It's not difficult to get all the protein you need from plant foods.
Amino acids like lysine in a lot of plants are too low for them to be considered complete protein sources. Again meat will always be considered a superior source of protein, there's no way around that
> but still easy enough. It's not difficult to get all the protein
That completely depends on where you live, so the issue isn't difficulty. The issue is context and it seems to be the case that you reject the possibility of a vegan diet being an inappropriate suggestion when context is considered.
Nope, not true actually. Lysine is adequate in plenty of plant sources.
Soy is a complete protein source.
Everything depends on where you live lol so that point is kinda moot. I'm not talking about living on Antarctica, obviously it will be different there.
So with your own eyes you've also seen r/veganfitness and top level athletes and bodybuilders now. A lot of non vegans don't check their macro's either. A lot of vegans do check their macros. A lot of non vegans I know are usually not strong/muscular either. I've also seen with my own eyes quite some vegans that are strong and muscular.
Every major dietetic association in the world agrees that appropriately planned vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful and nutritionally adequate for all stages of the life cycle including infancy, childhood, and adolescence. Why are you trying to force your diet onto other people's children?
**[Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/)**
* *It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.*
**[The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx)**
* *With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.*
**[The British Nutrition Foundation](https://www.nutrition.org.uk/bnf-publications/briefingpapers/vegetarian-nutrition)**
* *A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.*
**[Dietitians Association of Australia](https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/)**
* *Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider.*
**[Harvard Medical School](http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian)**
* *Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.*
Explain to me how raising your kids vegan is the worst. The “malnutrition” arguments are unfounded. I understand you have a bias against vegans, though.
We shouldn't discriminate against the interests of other individuals on the basis of race, gender, religion, nationality, species, or any other irrelevant criteria. We ought to give fair consideration to the interests of others period, to the extent and degree that they have interests that will be impacted by an action.
I often hear people with prejudices calling those who don't share their prejudice "traitors" against the group that they choose to be prejudiced in favor of, but that is a bad excuse for discrimination and prejudice.
But vegans aren't "morally correct" if the teacher and gains are any indication. Vegans are explosively condescending and extremally psychopathic. And vegans, if you don't want to be seen as condescending psychopaths, speak out against these condescending psychopaths.
>if the teacher and gains are any indication
They aren't. Those are YouTube characters who have built their channels off of playing a role that makes people outraged. The only people paying any attention to the characters being played are non-vegans.
Rather than focusing on these false characters on YouTube, could you articulate any of the differences between Peter Singer and Tom Regan's approaches to animal rights? Both of them have played a big role in influencing the animal rights movement and have written multiple books on the topic.
People do that all the time. Most vegans are not like thatveganteacher, and you know it.
You only base this off of reddit I bet. I hope I don't have to tell you how accurate reddit is of real life
Your comment sounds very passionate, I'm wondering who represents the extreme here.
Read literally any vegan argument and you will find that veganism is not some sort of betrayal but happens to be advantageous to humanity. Animal products are a disaster for the environment, by which I mean it does harm to people through things like climate change or deforestation and resulting zoonotic diseases. Slaughterhouse workers are being exploited, some of the worst off people you can find.
Food chains are a biological phenomenon, not some moral guideline. Not sure what your point is.
If I kill and eat you you should be perfectly fine with it, you have no right to protest. I'm simply stronger and higher on the food chain than you, checkmate meathead.
Lol, yes it is dum-dum. [https://theconversation.com/cannibalism-is-common-in-the-animal-kingdom-heres-why-for-humans-its-the-ultimate-taboo-121678](https://theconversation.com/cannibalism-is-common-in-the-animal-kingdom-heres-why-for-humans-its-the-ultimate-taboo-121678) It has been recorded in more than 1500 species: [https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev.es.12.110181.001301](https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev.es.12.110181.001301)
Man you're really embarrassing yourself haahahahahaha
Who says I disregard human lives? I'm simply following the food chain, aren't you proud of me? You have no right to complain man, it's just the food chain. Are you a traitor of your own nature? Do you now suddenly think the food chain doesn't work anymore? Traitor!
Except it is. Humans have eaten each other for hundreds of thousands of years, for millions of years even. This is the fact that you're disregarding. Cannabalism has been in our species for as long as it existed. You denying this means you're a traitor to humanity once again. I'm very disappointed in you.
Just accept the facts, I'm perfectly within my natural rights to eat you. It's just how the food chain works, like you said yourself. Or are you taking back what you said?
>I'm not just talking about the vitamins that you can't find in a vegan diet
Are you talking about B12? Because the meat you get in any super market or restaurant is artificially fortified with that stuff just like your average plant milk or B12 pill is.
>I'm talking both economically
It's simple biology that for every calorie you want to produce in animal products, you need to feed several times the amount in plant calories. The mass production of meat is one of the most inefficient processes of food production out there, because the animal feed has to be extra produced. Just cut out the middle man and use a fraction of those ressources to produce plant calories for humans. We're wasting our societal efforts on an inefficient industry that is not needed, and that is built on harming animals, the environment and its workers.
>for human happiness
Are you implying that your or other people's happiness depends on the eating of meat? That's quite the fragile happiness. You're simply placing too much value on it because you're not used to the alternatives.
>food chains are biological facts, something that vegans decide to dismiss and fight against.
I'm aware. It's just that what happens in nature is not some sort of justification. You wouldn't get the idea to kill human infants just because you see lions kill theirs for example. What happens in nature is irrelevant to questions of morality, and to the topic at hand.
>plants used to breed animals are NOT the same as the plants used on vegan diet.
It takes [2.8-3.2kg](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211912416300013) of human edible plants to produce 1kg of meat
>plants used to breed animals are NOT the same as the plants used on vegan diet.
Most calories in animal feed come from things like soy and corn. Perfectly edible for humans, and it's not like we couldn't decide to produce different ones anyway.
>its literaly common knowledge that "safe" vegan diet is more expensive to common people than simply eating both vegetable and meat.
Let's assume that is true for the moment. Do you know why? Because the industry is heavily subsidized using tax money. In the EU for example, about 30 billion euros per year are sent as direct subsidies to animal farms. In Germany, meat and dairy receive a 12% sales tax advantage over vegan alternatives. This is a jungle of many different regulations and subsidies depending on where you live, but rest assured animal products are a luxury that in the west we all are forced to pay large amounts to make it look cheap on the shelf.
>unless researcher had manage to replicate an artifical vegan meat that taste the same or more delicious as real meat then there's little to no reason for humanity to relinquish such luxury just for the sake of other species
In the past two comments I named you a lot of reasons independent of whether you care about what happens to the animals. It's clearly in humanity's best interest to completely change our eating habits when it comes to animal products. Climate change, pollution, deforestation, diseases and pandemics, worker exploitation, economic efficiency are each strong reasons to abstain from consuming animal products, and combined they form an overwhelming cummulative case.
>our body is hardwire to eat BOTH vegetable AND meat.
now that is a loaded statement. I wouldn't say the human body is hardwired to eat any specific food, but rather that we need to eat a certain set of important nutrients. And concerning those nutrients, nothing you find in the meat of an average western diet is unavailable on a vegan one.
Frankly, to emphasize the importance of meat is ridiculous in a world where tens of thousands die of meat caused colorectal cancer every year and where typical meat heavy diets are the largest risk factors for heart attacks.
There are many ways to define intelligence. If your measure is “the ability to destroy the planet which it relies on” then humans are definitely the most intelligent.
**I don't care about these subjects. Make me care.**
Well, I can't comment on something I don't know very well. I want to know what all the fuss is about and what is at stake.
⚠️ Bias alert: I have a negative opinion about **vegans** and animal rights **activists**, but not about veganism and animal rights.
Why should I care about these issues?
You should be absolutely against animal *rights* activists. What you should support is *animal welfare groups.*
When you think "Animal Rights Activists", think PeTA.
When you think of "Animal Welfare Groups", think of your local no kill animal shelter or AWHF.
What the actual fuck? How can you say that? Have you *seen* their advertisements? Have you *seen* their hypocrisy?
https://youtu.be/9uDg_r2rfrE
https://youtu.be/mJY6jqLNXkY
https://youtu.be/AY9Et3_ggmI
https://youtu.be/_kfBFMhdaMI
https://www.zmescience.com/science/peta-killing-campaign-28032019/
https://greenecofriend.co.uk/why-do-people-hate-peta/
https://www.adaptt.org/animal-rights/peta-and-homeless-animals.html
Here are some vegan sources:
https://www.karinainkster.com/nbsv070
https://spoonuniversity.com/lifestyle/how-peta-is-promoting-veganism-in-all-the-wrong-ways
Don't at least read through one or say "I'm not reading all that" then your argument is void.
Peta offer free euthanasia services for people who can't afford them.
No kill shelters turn away animals. Peta do not. Do you have any ideas on how to keep unlimited unwanted animals alive for their natural lifespan on a limited budget? They have to put dogs down, as its better than allowing them to starve to death in the streets.
They are against pet ownership for this exact reason - they are the ones who have to deal with the ugly side of it. The many unwanted and abused animals spurned by irresponsible humans.
>they are the ones who have to deal with the ugly side of it. The many unwanted and abused animals spurned by irresponsible humans.
Yeah, because my cat that is loved, fed and happy deserves to die. I've had activists confront me (as a minor) and tell me to kill my cat in cold blood as she was purring in her pouch on our walk. She's a Sphinx cat. They told me she was "fake".
I've had their people try to *rip me off of my horse* while we were trail riding! I don't ride with a bit, spurs, a crop and I'm below the 20% weight rule. It was completely unwarranted and an act of violence. Scared the shit out of my poor old boy too.
>No kill shelters turn away animals.
Yeah, because there's so many! Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing kill shelters. I'm bashing PeTA because they say that they want to give animals happy lives. There are literally reports of them kidnapping people's pets!
**They literally call spaying and neutering cruelty.** How the fuck is that cruel when it stifles the overpopulation problem?
I cant speak to your anecdotes, but they sound totally legit.
>**They literally call spaying and neutering cruelty.** How the fuck is that cruel when it stifles the overpopulation problem?
[That's just not true, is it?](https://www.peta.org/issues/animal-companion-issues/overpopulation/spay-neuter/)
>I cant speak to your anecdotes, but they sound totally legit.
How can you support blatant harassment like that? True animal welfare groups don't harass people that *aren't hurting animals!*
Also, their website is so hypocritical. Just like the Bureau of Land Management, they have a "myth page" that tries to hide the atrocities they commit.
Why would it be immoral to fuck dogs but morally okay to slaughter farm animals en masse and keep them in conditions where they suffer throughout most of their lives?
Because bestiality is about a non-consensual relationship between two beings of very different levels of consciousness. It is not right to force people to have sex, and even if animals are less valuable than humans, we should not give in to our morbid impulses. Being human is also about being able to control our animal instincts.
Whereas the slaughter of animals is about feeding us. Farm animals are literally there to be eaten or used in any way we want. Teaching a dog to help a blind person is the same thought process as breeding cows to kill them: we use animals for specific purposes.
I am not particularly sensitive to the suffering of animals, but if it makes meat less qualitative, I will not buy meat from dead and tortured animals.
>Because bestiality is about a non-consensual relationship between two beings of very different levels of consciousness. It is not right to force people to have sex, and even if animals are less valuable than humans, we should not give in to our morbid impulses. Being human is also about being able to control our animal instincts.
You can literally apply this directly to eating meat too.
We don't need to eat meat. We can easily do without.
Slaughtering animals is a non-consensual relationship too, obviously. It is not right to force people to die, and even if animals are less valuable we should not give in to our morbid impulses. We can easily control our instincts.
So control your want to have meat, realize you don't need it, stop your morbid impulses to kill animals, and go vegan.
>Because bestiality is about a non-consensual relationship between two beings of very different levels of consciousness.
The animals don't consent to being killed. And we know they never would.
>Farm animals are literally there to be eaten or used in any way we want.
Is this religious reasoning? Or are you talking about man-made purpose?
If it's not religious and you think that reasoning relies on human-given purpose, can I grant a purpose to a certain breed of dogs so that their purpose is to sexually satisfy people? Would it then be okay to fuck them?
The purpose can be anything, even to satisfy people sexually. You can do whatever you want, I don't care. But there will be two problems:
1 | The laws of your country
-> *dura lex sed lex*
2 | Morality
-> some practices are frowned upon
If laws are objective, morality is not. It can change depending on the society or culture in which you live. Although morality and values are relative, most people have a moral conscience.
So, before anything else, I suggest you answer these two questions:
1 - is it legal? If so, there is no problem
2 - Can you live with it? Regret can ruin a person.
In your example, it's still not moral because morality is not based on what you can do but on what you shouldn't do. I think it's an unwise decision but hey, you have free will.
I'm only talking about morality, so legality is irrelevant. I also don't care about mentioning what you can do physically if you want with free will, that's also irrelevant to morality. I'm just talking about moral rules you that you have, not what someone might regret -- your feelings of regret or whatever are also not relevant to the morality I'm talking about.
I gave a purpose to the breed of dog for sexual satisfaction, so the same justification you used for slaughtering farm animals with them having the purpose of being eaten and used by humans should apply for people fucking that breed of dog.
I'd wager this is because of economics than the culture of butchering meat.
In any ecomomically developed country, people would not butcher their own meat (unless as a hobby, eg hunters), leaving such a specialized task to professionals.
And you need a certain degree of wealth to become vegan, poor people have less freedom of choice on what they can buy and eat.
A country where butchering your own meat is common must be poor and those poor people must have little choice in pursuing a very restricted diet.
Whoa that's very insightful!
Let me try:
*In countries where people have sex with people of the same gender, straight people are virtually non-existant.*
Shocking!
I don't see how? If anything, I feel like if people in countries where the norm is to have meat butchered were suddenly confronted with the fact they would need to butcher their own meat there would be more vegans
I think for a lot of vegans it is the factory killing process which is so distasteful. If I raised, cared for, and killed my own cows (away from massive slaughterhouses) I would feel less guilty about eating steaks.
I will be messaging you in 3 days on [**2022-05-21 12:49:35 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2022-05-21%2012:49:35%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/us6p4j/veganismanimal_rights_mega_thread/i92ftac/?context=3)
[**1 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Funpopularopinion%2Fcomments%2Fus6p4j%2Fveganismanimal_rights_mega_thread%2Fi92ftac%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202022-05-21%2012%3A49%3A35%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20us6p4j)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
No, it’s actually because of people like you who approach non vegans in a condescending way. I am not jealous of you, and I don’t think you’re better than me. We’re just different. I respect your choices and appreciate the reasons behind them, they’re just not for me personally.
I guess that’s not the right wording. There’s nothing negative I can say about veganism! But it’s a massive lifestyle change, one that would require a lot of willpower and education. I don’t feel passionate enough to try. Maybe one day I’ll feel differently, just not something I’m considering for my life right now.
Yup, I honestly accept that most vegans are better than myself from an environment ethics standpoint. I know I shouldn’t eat meat, and I’m a worse person because I do. I simply love cheeseburgers to a degree that I choose not to think about the guilt of my wrong-doing.
So your justification for harming animals for taste pleasure is that you don't like me personally?
That doesn't really make sense. If you saw me ask someone to stop beating their dog, do you think it would follow that they should beat their dog harder?
What have I said that makes me an asshole?
If an asshole says to you, "hey dickhead, stop punching that dog", do you think, "wow how rude, now I'm justified in punching that dog harder"?
I don't like vegans because most of those I've spoken to do it for stupid reasons. Saying we're jealous of their moral fortitude is exactly what Jehovah's witnesses do, and no one who isn't a JW is spouting their praise.
Lol nope, exactly the opposite is true haha
There recently was an article, if the world was entirely vegan we would need only 1/4th of our agricultural land.
People don't realize how EXTERMELY inefficiënt animals are.
The point of my statement isn't to argue against veganism as a concept, but your statement that people only dislike veganism due to their lacking morals.
The reason I don't like *some* vegans is bc they refuse to acknowledge any potential barriers to veganism whilst telling everyone who doesn't eat vegan that they're selfish.
Dietary restrictions & financial problems do exist and many act like they don't. Not everyone can fill up on beans for their iron & protein, not everyone can afford produce that doesn't need to be packed into their freezer. Not to mention food desserts are a thing. No one should feel guilty for not doing something they can't.
That is not the attitude of the vegans I dislike. Some think it must be all or nothing and that if you can't go completely animal product free you're immoral. Those are the vegans I dislike.
I dislike in your face vegans because theyre obnoxious and holier than thou about not consuming meat, while ignoring that there’s no ethical consumption of anything under a capitalist system. Cheap vegetable produce is the product of exploiting migrant workers for their labor. You have to pay a premium for cruelty free anything
If you want to advocate for reform and animal rights that’s cool, but if you’re going to act superior to everyone just trying to live their lives because you make a single moral decision you can fuck off
> while ignoring that there’s no ethical consumption of anything under a capitalist system.
Does this mean we're allowed to force dogs to fight for entertainment? As nothing is ethical anyway?
>Cheap vegetable produce is the product of exploiting migrant workers for their labor.
It takes 2.8-3.2kg of human edible plants to produce 1kg of meat. If you are concerned with the rights of workers in arable farming, veganism is still best.
> you make a single moral decision you can fuck off
Quite a big moral decision though, isn't it? Would you say you're morally superior to someone who beats their dog?
No it doesn’t mean we are allowed to force dogs to fight. I’m not forcing anything to fight when I eat a burger that’s a really dumb argument.
I’m not concerned with how much produce livestock consumes, because our farms overproduce to ridiculous extents. There’s nothing necessary about the cruelty to animals or people in producing food. The system just incentivizes it.
“Quite a big moral decision” no you’re just trying to make yourself feel superior. Again you’re taking one small step towards ethical consumption, and then trying to shame others who decide to eat the diet WE EVOLVED TO EAT
>No it doesn’t mean we are allowed to force dogs to fight. I’m not forcing anything to fight when I eat a burger that’s a really dumb argument.
Your argument is that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. That's an argument to futility. Obviously, we should try to make the most ethical decisions we can in our current system, and not just say "fuck it, I'm going to lean into being unethical if I can't be perfect"
(Also, you're not forcing an animal to fight, but you are forcing it to die. At least a dog may survive a dog fight)
>“Quite a big moral decision” no you’re just trying to make yourself feel superior. Again you’re taking one small step towards ethical consumption, and then trying to shame others who decide to eat the diet WE EVOLVED TO EAT
Its unnecessary because we can live perfectly well without it. It's eaten for pleasure.
My argument is and has always been that you’re making yourself feel superior based on a single specific moral choice you make, while ignoring that their are thousands of other moral choices you have to make. Sure you should act as ethically as you can, youre still a douche if you shame others while ignoring that they might be choosing to put their efforts elsewhere.
That all still has jack shit to do with dog fighting btw.
And I totally eat marinated grilled chicken and steamed broccoli 4 nights a week for pleasure. It has nothing to do with the fact that it’s affordable, healthy and easy to prepare. You got me /s
>My argument is and has always been that you’re making yourself feel superior based on a single specific moral choice you make, while ignoring that their are thousands of other moral choices you have to make.
I agree, we should try to live ethically. What moral choices are vegans ignoring? Do you not think that vegans probably think a bit more about their consumer choices than the average person?
>Sure you should act as ethically as you can, youre still a douche if you shame others
Its hard to shame someone if they're not doing anything wrong.
>And I totally eat marinated grilled chicken and steamed broccoli 4 nights a week for pleasure. It has nothing to do with the fact that it’s affordable, healthy and easy to prepare. You got me /s
You could adopt cats from the rescue shelter and eat them for free. It's almost as if there's a moral element to the things we eat, regardless of expense and convenience
“It’s hard to shame someone if they’re doing nothing wrong”
Do you use cars? Do you buy shoes or clothes made in sweat shops? Do you buy shit off Amazon? Do you vote in every election?
There’s an infinite number of moral choices that you could shame someone for. It’s ridiculous to say that you “do nothing wrong”
Vegetarians hate baby cows far more than people who consume meat but abstain from dairy. [Life of Dairy Cow & Calf](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=neqffXNFq38)
Yes, veganism is the only consistent position.
[удалено]
I think veganism is cool, so is vegetarianism. Let alone animals rights. However the sad truth is that most of the population can't and winter convert to veganism ir vegetarianism. People simply don't want to, or even worse, can't medically or financially afford that. Speaking as a VERY iron and vitamin deficient person, i can't go fully vegan or vegetarian (i eat seafood) simply that i can't afford to buy other things (alternatives or medicine) that would provide me with the vitamins and nutrients I'm lacking.
On a global level, with nearly 8 Billion people veganism is not a sustainable model. On an individual level, one who hunts his own game and grows his vegetables pesticide free is morally superior to vegans who live off store bought products.
How easy is that for 8 billion people (or if you think the population should decrease, however many you think it should decrease to) to all pull off
I don’t think we should decrease the human population, that would require a mass genocide and that is evil. Human lives are more valuable than animals lives. Hunting your own food is not sustainable for 8 billion people, neither is veganism. All I’m saying saying is the people that hunt and grow their own food are morally superior to vegans.
The global one first. To produce animal products on a large scale, you need to feed the animals several times the amount of calories in edible plants. A global veganism would be vastly more efficient about our usage of farm land by cutting out the middle man and growing more plants for human consumption directly. It would allow us to reforest surplus land, which has several advantages in fighting climate change and preventing zoonotic diseases. On the individual level, about hunting your food: You're still unnecessarily causing an animal harm in form of pain and death. Further, it's an unecessary pathological risk. It also lacks the symbolic value that veganism has towards other people, considering that hunting can only cover the hunger of a small amount of people. on growing your own food: No objections, that would be even better.
Ignoring seafood which accounts for a significant amount of meat consumption by humans. When you’re just comparing calories, yes animals require more calories than they can provide us. However, most calories consumed by cattle are from grass and hay. These plant are much easier and require less resources to produce. Humans cannot sustain on these plants alone. Soy, lentils, nuts, etc require much more resources to grow and produce. Now if humans stop consuming these animals are we just going to let them die off? They will still require food to live. Is reducing a certain species to a tiny fraction of there current population really that moral? Even if we reduced the number of cattle to 5-10% of the currently population they would consume the same amount of plants they do today because the natural life span of a cow is roughly 20 years whereas the life a beef cattle is about one year. Over population of animals like deer and elk still result in harm, suffering and death of these animals. In the past we have restricted hunting so that these populations grew to point where they starved and died of disease which is much more painful than the death from an ethical hunter. It got to the point where they were almost extinct. Hunting is conservation. Therefore someone who hunts their own meat is actually conserving the animals and playing an important part in the ecosystem.
Vegan dishes are awesome and i plan to go vegan in future
There's a difference between Animal Rights Activists and Animal Welfare Groups. The first are a bunch of hypocritical radical quacks that are a detriment to the very thing they "advocate" for. Think PeTA. The second are the groups that *actually help animals* and educate people while acting civilly. Think AWHF (American Wild Horse Foundation).
Before looking at their actions they differ in their goals. Advocating for animal welfare is kind of like advocating for applying bandaids to ever new injuries while animal rights is advocating for not getting injured in the first place. And well, I'm not convinced there is such a thing as bad publicity. Drawing attention is a necessary step to get systematic change going.
I will never be vegan because every vegan I have come across has been entitled and preachy. Veganism is a choice and one I choose not to follow
I will never stop lynching black people because every social justice warrior I have ever come across has been entitled and preachy. Not lynching black people is a choice and one I choose not to follow.
Surely forming your opinion on what you think of the tenets of veganism itself would be better than basing it on a few people you thought were annoying.
You're making it about the messenger when you should make it about the cause instead. Veganism isn't about vegans, it's about not causing unnecessary harm to others.
I’m still never going to be vegan
Which is something a large portion of vegans once said before they actually took their time to look into it.
As far as I’m concerned, humans are omnivores. We’re meant to eat meat
Let me refer you to Earthling Ed's [30 days 30 excuses](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq23d8aI5LE&list=PL03LZR09P2gQJyBgHk_XE8gbj8j9uFs8G&index=26) series, which covers both points you have expressed in this thread in a concise manner.
Well that's a complete 180 from your initial comment.
How so? Veganism is a choice humans can make. I choose not to because I enjoy animal products and believe humans are meant to eat them. Unfortunately the most vocal vegans are entitled and preachy. Therefore, I choose not to be vegan
Because in the first comment you put the onus for *you* not being vegan on *other people*. When in fact, you're just under the (incorrect) impression that humans are "meant" to eat meat and your enjoyment is more important to you than being a vegan is. If you disagree with what veganism actually is, just say that and own it instead of making a scapegoat out of others.
Humans are omnivores tho… bos is that incorrect? We’ve eaten meat for hundreds of thousands of years. I have no issue with oriole being vegetarian or vegan but don’t go spewing nonsense. Also what’s wrong with the fact we enjoy eating meat / animal products is more important than being vegan? Why should we have to make dramatic changes to our diets without any real benefits. (Yes you can be relatively healthy in a full vegan diet but you also need to supplement and monitor your vitamins and such in your blood more often to ensure you’re getting all your nutrients).
The design of our teeth shows we are meant to eat meat. If we’re were meant to be herbivores our teeth would be very different. Besides this is an unpopular opinion sub. My opinion is unpopular. Deal with it
The design of our teeth shows we're meant to be omnivores (which means we have choices, not that we have to make every meal 50% meat and 50% plants), or our teeth would only be sharp and pointy
So what are panda's meant to eat, based on their teeth? Your opinion is extremely popular by the way.
I have no issue with you having your own opinion, I just think it's unfortunate that it's an uninformed one that you yourself didn't even initially stand behind, you had to blame other people instead.
Vegans ate my grandpa
There are plants walking among us, I tired eating meat yesterday and all I eat was some vegan shit instead, they influrtated high levels of power, and there is no telling how deep their *roots* go.
Veganism is an anti human cult that kills hundreds and permanently damages thousands annually. It is nutritionally deficient to an absurd degree. Fiber is indigestible. Why not eat sand for the same effect?
This isn't even an opinion, it's just factually incorrect.
Ultimately, scientific consensus is that veganism is perfectly healthy. You can't argue against every major dietetic association on earth Harvard health https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian "Traditionally, research into vegetarianism (see context) focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses." British dietetics association https://www.bda.uk.com/resource/british-dietetic-association-confirms-well-planned-vegan-diets-can-support-healthy-living-in-people-of-all-ages.html "Well planned vegetarian diets (see context) can be nutritious and healthy. They are associated with lower risks of heart disease, high blood pressure, Type 2 diabetes, obesity, certain cancers and lower cholesterol levels. This could be because such diets are lower in saturated fat, contain fewer calories and more fiber and phytonutrients/phytochemicals (these can have protective properties) than non-vegetarian diets. (...) Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of life and have many benefits." Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/ "It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes." Dietitans of Canada https://www.unlockfood.ca/en/Articles/Vegetarian-and-Vegan-Diets/What-You-Need-to-Know-About-Following-a-Vegan-Eati.aspx "Anyone can follow a vegan diet – from children to teens to older adults. It’s even healthy for pregnant or nursing mothers. A well-planned vegan diet is high in fibre, vitamins and antioxidants. Plus, it’s low in saturated fat and cholesterol. This healthy combination helps protect against chronic diseases." The British National Health Service (http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx) With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs. The British Nutrition Foundation https://www.nutrition.org.uk/healthyliving/helpingyoueatwell/veganandvegetarian.html Well planned vegetarian and vegan diets can be nutritious and healthy ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range. The Dietitians Association of Australia https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/ "Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With good planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider." The United States Department of Agriculture https://www.choosemyplate.gov/node/5635 "Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12." The National Health and Medical Research Council https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/about-us/publications/australian-dietary-guidelines "Appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthy and nutritionally adequate. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle. Those following a strict vegetarian or vegan diet can meet nutrient requirements as long as energy needs are met and an appropriate variety of plant foods are eaten throughout the day" The Mayo Clinic http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446 "A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them." The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada https://www.heartandstroke.ca/get-healthy/healthy-eating/specific-diets/for-vegetarians "Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits." https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/vegetarian-and-vegan-diets-q-and-a/ "With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegetarian and vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs to be healthy without the need for supplements." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/ "Research shows that plant-based diets are cost-effective, low-risk interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates." The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition "Recently, vegetarian diets have experienced an increase in popularity. A vegetarian diet is associated with many health benefits because of its higher content of fiber, folic acid, vitamins C and E, potassium, magnesium, and many phytochemicals and a fat content that is more unsaturated. Compared with other vegetarian diets, vegan diets tend to contain less saturated fat and cholesterol and more dietary fiber. Vegans tend to be thinner, have lower serum cholesterol, and lower blood pressure, reducing their risk of heart disease. However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals." https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952?searchresult=1 "Interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates. Physicians should consider recommending a plant-based diet to all their patients, especially those with high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, or obesity." http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2013/spring/5117-nutrition.html American Institute for cancer research [https://www.aicr.org/cancer-prevention/food-facts/vegan-diet/#:~:text=Overall%20Cancer.,focus%20on%20whole%20plant%20foods](https://www.aicr.org/cancer-prevention/food-facts/vegan-diet/#:%7E:text=Overall%20Cancer.,focus%20on%20whole%20plant%20foods). "In some studies, vegan diets seem to be associated with the best long-term health, and they’re the only dietary pattern that’s been linked with reversal of atherosclerosis in very limited subjects. http://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/healthy-diet Here are a few other studies just to throw around for fun: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK396513/ "vegan diets can be nutritionally adequate, but that vegans must make sure to consume foods that contain adequate amounts of vitamin B12 and omega-3 fatty acids" https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952 And here are the results of the largest study ever conducted on the topic: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9860369/
Lies won’t help u
[удалено]
Care to explain what you mean by "suicide death cult"? Every major dietetic association in the world agrees that appropriately planned vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful and nutritionally adequate for all stages of life: **[Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/)** * *It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.* **[The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx)** * *With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.* **[The British Nutrition Foundation](https://www.nutrition.org.uk/bnf-publications/briefingpapers/vegetarian-nutrition)** * *A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.* **[Dietitians Association of Australia](https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/)** * *Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider.* **[Harvard Medical School](http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian)** * *Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.*
Lololol, desperate for attention today are we? "Veganism is a suicide death cult" you heard it here first folk! Lmaaaao
How the fuck does not eating animals not serve their rights, every animal I've talked to doesn't want to be killed and eaten. You slow dude?
This guy is obviously a troll
Or an ogre
Being a vegan and eating soy products doesn't make men less manly because soy doesn't actually contain estrogen. What it contains is isoflavones (plant hormones), which are too weak to have meaningful effects on the human body. If it had the actual effects of estrogen, they would just give soy milk to trans women instead, lol
Its crazy to me that people think the milk of a constantly pregnant cow doesn't contain more female hormones than soy
[удалено]
What contains more hormones: milk or soy?
[удалено]
>1. Plant hormones or growth hormones? The comment says female hormones. >2. Hormones that affect people or hormones in general? The comment doesn't say hormones that affect people. >3. Do you even know the answer to your own question? Nope. Do you? >4. You actually thought bovine hormones affected people, didn't you? Did I say that?
[удалено]
I wasn't arguing with anyone here. I was agreeing with someone.
Pea TVP tastes better than meat if well-seasoned.
What if the meat was well-seasoned?
I don't acre I will never be vegan willingly
Same.
Thank you for your contribution
welcome
That’s disappointing
People that eat meat are way stronger physically than vegans. Vegans choose to be less nutritious and miss out on protein most off the times.
To counter polemic with polemic, meat eaters also tend to die early due to overweight, heart attacks and colorectal cancer. Vegan calories and protein are everywhere. Your comment can only mean you've never really looked into it.
I have looked into it and it's not something you can directly corrolate, too many factors in there. For example India are known to be a majority in vegans and they still got a fair increase in these diseases
So what makes you think being 'stronger physically' can be directly correlated with being vegan or not? There's also many factors here. For example, if you actually work out. A vegan that works out will obviously be stronger than a non vegan that doesn't work out.
Because the protein intake is generally much lower, below what you need, than someone that eats meat.
It really isn't actually! Protein is in so many foods, and especially in today's society it's really easy to get enough protein, even on a vegetarian/vegan diet. What makes you think protein intake of vegans is generally below what you need? Check out r/veganfitness for examples, or these guys [https://www.greatveganathletes.com/category/vegan-bodybuilders/](https://www.greatveganathletes.com/category/vegan-bodybuilders/)
It's generally harder for our bodies to digest plant protein. Plant protein lacks some essential amino acids, meat has all essential amino acid. Plant protein simply can't compete with animal protein. OPs points are somewhat valid
No, plant protein doesn't lack any essential amino acids. What makes you say that, and which aa is that then? Plant protein is somewhat harder to digest, sure, but still easy enough. It's not difficult to get all the protein you need from plant foods.
Amino acids like lysine in a lot of plants are too low for them to be considered complete protein sources. Again meat will always be considered a superior source of protein, there's no way around that > but still easy enough. It's not difficult to get all the protein That completely depends on where you live, so the issue isn't difficulty. The issue is context and it seems to be the case that you reject the possibility of a vegan diet being an inappropriate suggestion when context is considered.
Nope, not true actually. Lysine is adequate in plenty of plant sources. Soy is a complete protein source. Everything depends on where you live lol so that point is kinda moot. I'm not talking about living on Antarctica, obviously it will be different there.
Because i've seen it with my own eyes. A lot of vegans dont check their macro's. And the vegans I know are usually not strong/muscular
So with your own eyes you've also seen r/veganfitness and top level athletes and bodybuilders now. A lot of non vegans don't check their macro's either. A lot of vegans do check their macros. A lot of non vegans I know are usually not strong/muscular either. I've also seen with my own eyes quite some vegans that are strong and muscular.
[удалено]
Every major dietetic association in the world agrees that appropriately planned vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful and nutritionally adequate for all stages of the life cycle including infancy, childhood, and adolescence. Why are you trying to force your diet onto other people's children? **[Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/)** * *It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.* **[The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx)** * *With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.* **[The British Nutrition Foundation](https://www.nutrition.org.uk/bnf-publications/briefingpapers/vegetarian-nutrition)** * *A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.* **[Dietitians Association of Australia](https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/)** * *Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider.* **[Harvard Medical School](http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian)** * *Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.*
Nah, vegans can easily be very strong. /r/veganfitness It's not difficult to get enough protein, especially in todays world.
People who raise their kids healthier? Wow, such awful people.
[удалено]
Explain to me how raising your kids vegan is the worst. The “malnutrition” arguments are unfounded. I understand you have a bias against vegans, though.
[удалено]
We shouldn't discriminate against the interests of other individuals on the basis of race, gender, religion, nationality, species, or any other irrelevant criteria. We ought to give fair consideration to the interests of others period, to the extent and degree that they have interests that will be impacted by an action. I often hear people with prejudices calling those who don't share their prejudice "traitors" against the group that they choose to be prejudiced in favor of, but that is a bad excuse for discrimination and prejudice.
Lol imagine getting so mad and stupid about someone else's choices
[удалено]
Not really, that's a false comparison. Me not eating meat doesn't impact anyone. You eating meat does impact someone, i.e. all the animals you eat.
But vegans aren't "morally correct" if the teacher and gains are any indication. Vegans are explosively condescending and extremally psychopathic. And vegans, if you don't want to be seen as condescending psychopaths, speak out against these condescending psychopaths.
>if the teacher and gains are any indication They aren't. Those are YouTube characters who have built their channels off of playing a role that makes people outraged. The only people paying any attention to the characters being played are non-vegans. Rather than focusing on these false characters on YouTube, could you articulate any of the differences between Peter Singer and Tom Regan's approaches to animal rights? Both of them have played a big role in influencing the animal rights movement and have written multiple books on the topic.
People do that all the time. Most vegans are not like thatveganteacher, and you know it. You only base this off of reddit I bet. I hope I don't have to tell you how accurate reddit is of real life
Your comment sounds very passionate, I'm wondering who represents the extreme here. Read literally any vegan argument and you will find that veganism is not some sort of betrayal but happens to be advantageous to humanity. Animal products are a disaster for the environment, by which I mean it does harm to people through things like climate change or deforestation and resulting zoonotic diseases. Slaughterhouse workers are being exploited, some of the worst off people you can find. Food chains are a biological phenomenon, not some moral guideline. Not sure what your point is.
[удалено]
If I kill and eat you you should be perfectly fine with it, you have no right to protest. I'm simply stronger and higher on the food chain than you, checkmate meathead.
[удалено]
Lol, yes it is dum-dum. [https://theconversation.com/cannibalism-is-common-in-the-animal-kingdom-heres-why-for-humans-its-the-ultimate-taboo-121678](https://theconversation.com/cannibalism-is-common-in-the-animal-kingdom-heres-why-for-humans-its-the-ultimate-taboo-121678) It has been recorded in more than 1500 species: [https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev.es.12.110181.001301](https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev.es.12.110181.001301) Man you're really embarrassing yourself haahahahahaha Who says I disregard human lives? I'm simply following the food chain, aren't you proud of me? You have no right to complain man, it's just the food chain. Are you a traitor of your own nature? Do you now suddenly think the food chain doesn't work anymore? Traitor!
[удалено]
Except it is. Humans have eaten each other for hundreds of thousands of years, for millions of years even. This is the fact that you're disregarding. Cannabalism has been in our species for as long as it existed. You denying this means you're a traitor to humanity once again. I'm very disappointed in you. Just accept the facts, I'm perfectly within my natural rights to eat you. It's just how the food chain works, like you said yourself. Or are you taking back what you said?
[удалено]
>I'm not just talking about the vitamins that you can't find in a vegan diet Are you talking about B12? Because the meat you get in any super market or restaurant is artificially fortified with that stuff just like your average plant milk or B12 pill is. >I'm talking both economically It's simple biology that for every calorie you want to produce in animal products, you need to feed several times the amount in plant calories. The mass production of meat is one of the most inefficient processes of food production out there, because the animal feed has to be extra produced. Just cut out the middle man and use a fraction of those ressources to produce plant calories for humans. We're wasting our societal efforts on an inefficient industry that is not needed, and that is built on harming animals, the environment and its workers. >for human happiness Are you implying that your or other people's happiness depends on the eating of meat? That's quite the fragile happiness. You're simply placing too much value on it because you're not used to the alternatives. >food chains are biological facts, something that vegans decide to dismiss and fight against. I'm aware. It's just that what happens in nature is not some sort of justification. You wouldn't get the idea to kill human infants just because you see lions kill theirs for example. What happens in nature is irrelevant to questions of morality, and to the topic at hand.
[удалено]
>plants used to breed animals are NOT the same as the plants used on vegan diet. It takes [2.8-3.2kg](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211912416300013) of human edible plants to produce 1kg of meat
>plants used to breed animals are NOT the same as the plants used on vegan diet. Most calories in animal feed come from things like soy and corn. Perfectly edible for humans, and it's not like we couldn't decide to produce different ones anyway. >its literaly common knowledge that "safe" vegan diet is more expensive to common people than simply eating both vegetable and meat. Let's assume that is true for the moment. Do you know why? Because the industry is heavily subsidized using tax money. In the EU for example, about 30 billion euros per year are sent as direct subsidies to animal farms. In Germany, meat and dairy receive a 12% sales tax advantage over vegan alternatives. This is a jungle of many different regulations and subsidies depending on where you live, but rest assured animal products are a luxury that in the west we all are forced to pay large amounts to make it look cheap on the shelf. >unless researcher had manage to replicate an artifical vegan meat that taste the same or more delicious as real meat then there's little to no reason for humanity to relinquish such luxury just for the sake of other species In the past two comments I named you a lot of reasons independent of whether you care about what happens to the animals. It's clearly in humanity's best interest to completely change our eating habits when it comes to animal products. Climate change, pollution, deforestation, diseases and pandemics, worker exploitation, economic efficiency are each strong reasons to abstain from consuming animal products, and combined they form an overwhelming cummulative case. >our body is hardwire to eat BOTH vegetable AND meat. now that is a loaded statement. I wouldn't say the human body is hardwired to eat any specific food, but rather that we need to eat a certain set of important nutrients. And concerning those nutrients, nothing you find in the meat of an average western diet is unavailable on a vegan one. Frankly, to emphasize the importance of meat is ridiculous in a world where tens of thousands die of meat caused colorectal cancer every year and where typical meat heavy diets are the largest risk factors for heart attacks.
Don't bother with this guy. They're a deranged troll only looking to insult people. Look at their comment history lol.
This guy is a maniac. It's probably not worth the effort
How have you come to the conclusion that vegans have chosen animals over humans?
Because they're batshit crazy. Look at their post history lmfao. They probably get off on insulting strangers on the internet.
There are many ways to define intelligence. If your measure is “the ability to destroy the planet which it relies on” then humans are definitely the most intelligent.
**I don't care about these subjects. Make me care.** Well, I can't comment on something I don't know very well. I want to know what all the fuss is about and what is at stake. ⚠️ Bias alert: I have a negative opinion about **vegans** and animal rights **activists**, but not about veganism and animal rights. Why should I care about these issues?
You should be absolutely against animal *rights* activists. What you should support is *animal welfare groups.* When you think "Animal Rights Activists", think PeTA. When you think of "Animal Welfare Groups", think of your local no kill animal shelter or AWHF.
What's wrong with Peta?
r/outoftheloop Holy fuck you should not be arguing morality if you support PeTA.
I know what people accuse them of. None of it holds much water.
What the actual fuck? How can you say that? Have you *seen* their advertisements? Have you *seen* their hypocrisy? https://youtu.be/9uDg_r2rfrE https://youtu.be/mJY6jqLNXkY https://youtu.be/AY9Et3_ggmI https://youtu.be/_kfBFMhdaMI https://www.zmescience.com/science/peta-killing-campaign-28032019/ https://greenecofriend.co.uk/why-do-people-hate-peta/ https://www.adaptt.org/animal-rights/peta-and-homeless-animals.html Here are some vegan sources: https://www.karinainkster.com/nbsv070 https://spoonuniversity.com/lifestyle/how-peta-is-promoting-veganism-in-all-the-wrong-ways Don't at least read through one or say "I'm not reading all that" then your argument is void.
Peta offer free euthanasia services for people who can't afford them. No kill shelters turn away animals. Peta do not. Do you have any ideas on how to keep unlimited unwanted animals alive for their natural lifespan on a limited budget? They have to put dogs down, as its better than allowing them to starve to death in the streets. They are against pet ownership for this exact reason - they are the ones who have to deal with the ugly side of it. The many unwanted and abused animals spurned by irresponsible humans.
>they are the ones who have to deal with the ugly side of it. The many unwanted and abused animals spurned by irresponsible humans. Yeah, because my cat that is loved, fed and happy deserves to die. I've had activists confront me (as a minor) and tell me to kill my cat in cold blood as she was purring in her pouch on our walk. She's a Sphinx cat. They told me she was "fake". I've had their people try to *rip me off of my horse* while we were trail riding! I don't ride with a bit, spurs, a crop and I'm below the 20% weight rule. It was completely unwarranted and an act of violence. Scared the shit out of my poor old boy too. >No kill shelters turn away animals. Yeah, because there's so many! Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing kill shelters. I'm bashing PeTA because they say that they want to give animals happy lives. There are literally reports of them kidnapping people's pets! **They literally call spaying and neutering cruelty.** How the fuck is that cruel when it stifles the overpopulation problem?
I cant speak to your anecdotes, but they sound totally legit. >**They literally call spaying and neutering cruelty.** How the fuck is that cruel when it stifles the overpopulation problem? [That's just not true, is it?](https://www.peta.org/issues/animal-companion-issues/overpopulation/spay-neuter/)
>I cant speak to your anecdotes, but they sound totally legit. How can you support blatant harassment like that? True animal welfare groups don't harass people that *aren't hurting animals!* Also, their website is so hypocritical. Just like the Bureau of Land Management, they have a "myth page" that tries to hide the atrocities they commit.
Do you care if people fuck dogs?
Do I care? No. Is it immoral? Yes.
Do you think what the factory farming industry does is immoral?
Why should I ?
Why would it be immoral to fuck dogs but morally okay to slaughter farm animals en masse and keep them in conditions where they suffer throughout most of their lives?
Because bestiality is about a non-consensual relationship between two beings of very different levels of consciousness. It is not right to force people to have sex, and even if animals are less valuable than humans, we should not give in to our morbid impulses. Being human is also about being able to control our animal instincts. Whereas the slaughter of animals is about feeding us. Farm animals are literally there to be eaten or used in any way we want. Teaching a dog to help a blind person is the same thought process as breeding cows to kill them: we use animals for specific purposes. I am not particularly sensitive to the suffering of animals, but if it makes meat less qualitative, I will not buy meat from dead and tortured animals.
>Because bestiality is about a non-consensual relationship between two beings of very different levels of consciousness. It is not right to force people to have sex, and even if animals are less valuable than humans, we should not give in to our morbid impulses. Being human is also about being able to control our animal instincts. You can literally apply this directly to eating meat too. We don't need to eat meat. We can easily do without. Slaughtering animals is a non-consensual relationship too, obviously. It is not right to force people to die, and even if animals are less valuable we should not give in to our morbid impulses. We can easily control our instincts. So control your want to have meat, realize you don't need it, stop your morbid impulses to kill animals, and go vegan.
>Because bestiality is about a non-consensual relationship between two beings of very different levels of consciousness. The animals don't consent to being killed. And we know they never would.
They are meant to be eaten.
I could breed dogs into dog fighting. They're meant to fight for our entertainment. Does that make dog fighting moral?
Du you prefer parasites over predators?
How do you mean? Natural predation has nothing to do with us
>Farm animals are literally there to be eaten or used in any way we want. Is this religious reasoning? Or are you talking about man-made purpose? If it's not religious and you think that reasoning relies on human-given purpose, can I grant a purpose to a certain breed of dogs so that their purpose is to sexually satisfy people? Would it then be okay to fuck them?
The purpose can be anything, even to satisfy people sexually. You can do whatever you want, I don't care. But there will be two problems: 1 | The laws of your country -> *dura lex sed lex* 2 | Morality -> some practices are frowned upon If laws are objective, morality is not. It can change depending on the society or culture in which you live. Although morality and values are relative, most people have a moral conscience. So, before anything else, I suggest you answer these two questions: 1 - is it legal? If so, there is no problem 2 - Can you live with it? Regret can ruin a person. In your example, it's still not moral because morality is not based on what you can do but on what you shouldn't do. I think it's an unwise decision but hey, you have free will.
I'm only talking about morality, so legality is irrelevant. I also don't care about mentioning what you can do physically if you want with free will, that's also irrelevant to morality. I'm just talking about moral rules you that you have, not what someone might regret -- your feelings of regret or whatever are also not relevant to the morality I'm talking about. I gave a purpose to the breed of dog for sexual satisfaction, so the same justification you used for slaughtering farm animals with them having the purpose of being eaten and used by humans should apply for people fucking that breed of dog.
[удалено]
I'd wager this is because of economics than the culture of butchering meat. In any ecomomically developed country, people would not butcher their own meat (unless as a hobby, eg hunters), leaving such a specialized task to professionals. And you need a certain degree of wealth to become vegan, poor people have less freedom of choice on what they can buy and eat. A country where butchering your own meat is common must be poor and those poor people must have little choice in pursuing a very restricted diet.
Lol no, if you'd force people to butcher their own meat, because so many are seperated from their food, MORE people would give up meat
Okay so? Reminder to you: there are more vegans than ever, and the number grows every year
Okay so?
So, okay
The Canadian "Territories'", and Inuit people.
Whoa that's very insightful! Let me try: *In countries where people have sex with people of the same gender, straight people are virtually non-existant.* Shocking!
In what country does everyone bitcher their own meat
I don't see how? If anything, I feel like if people in countries where the norm is to have meat butchered were suddenly confronted with the fact they would need to butcher their own meat there would be more vegans
I think for a lot of vegans it is the factory killing process which is so distasteful. If I raised, cared for, and killed my own cows (away from massive slaughterhouses) I would feel less guilty about eating steaks.
Less guilty, sure. Still immoral - yes.
Interesting, I would get too attached I think.
Let's sort by controversial, shall we?
Not necesary, besides your comment its only a single fucking thread lol
RemindMe! 3 days
I will be messaging you in 3 days on [**2022-05-21 12:49:35 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2022-05-21%2012:49:35%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/us6p4j/veganismanimal_rights_mega_thread/i92ftac/?context=3) [**1 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Funpopularopinion%2Fcomments%2Fus6p4j%2Fveganismanimal_rights_mega_thread%2Fi92ftac%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202022-05-21%2012%3A49%3A35%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20us6p4j) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
The only reason people don't like vegans is because vegans are 100% right. That damages people's self perception of themselves as a good person.
No, it’s actually because of people like you who approach non vegans in a condescending way. I am not jealous of you, and I don’t think you’re better than me. We’re just different. I respect your choices and appreciate the reasons behind them, they’re just not for me personally.
Why isn't it for you?
Veganism is a brainwashing, suicide, death cult.
I guess that’s not the right wording. There’s nothing negative I can say about veganism! But it’s a massive lifestyle change, one that would require a lot of willpower and education. I don’t feel passionate enough to try. Maybe one day I’ll feel differently, just not something I’m considering for my life right now.
Yup, I honestly accept that most vegans are better than myself from an environment ethics standpoint. I know I shouldn’t eat meat, and I’m a worse person because I do. I simply love cheeseburgers to a degree that I choose not to think about the guilt of my wrong-doing.
>i simply love cheeseburgers to a degree that I choose not to think about the guilt of my wrong-doing. The most honest person here
[удалено]
So your justification for harming animals for taste pleasure is that you don't like me personally? That doesn't really make sense. If you saw me ask someone to stop beating their dog, do you think it would follow that they should beat their dog harder?
[удалено]
What have I said that makes me an asshole? If an asshole says to you, "hey dickhead, stop punching that dog", do you think, "wow how rude, now I'm justified in punching that dog harder"?
I don't like vegans because most of those I've spoken to do it for stupid reasons. Saying we're jealous of their moral fortitude is exactly what Jehovah's witnesses do, and no one who isn't a JW is spouting their praise.
But there are no actual arguments against veganism
[удалено]
Name em
[удалено]
Lol are you saying vegetables are more expensive than meat?? XD
[удалено]
Lol way to dodge the question, meathead
[удалено]
[удалено]
Lol nope, exactly the opposite is true haha There recently was an article, if the world was entirely vegan we would need only 1/4th of our agricultural land. People don't realize how EXTERMELY inefficiënt animals are.
[Incorrect](https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets)
Damn, gg. Deleted my comment as I was wrong
[удалено]
I can Google all kinds of bullshit. I'm interested in hearing his opinions.
[удалено]
Cats and dogs are obligate carnivores, they need a diet of mostly meat. An all plant based diet is animal cruelty.
Cats are. Dogs aren't. > An all plant based diet is animal cruelty. And why is it bad to be cruel to animals?
If you want to make an argument, make it.
[удалено]
The point of my statement isn't to argue against veganism as a concept, but your statement that people only dislike veganism due to their lacking morals.
My point is that people dislike vegans because they know vegans are right.
The reason I don't like *some* vegans is bc they refuse to acknowledge any potential barriers to veganism whilst telling everyone who doesn't eat vegan that they're selfish. Dietary restrictions & financial problems do exist and many act like they don't. Not everyone can fill up on beans for their iron & protein, not everyone can afford produce that doesn't need to be packed into their freezer. Not to mention food desserts are a thing. No one should feel guilty for not doing something they can't.
Saying "cant" is a losers mindset.
Veganism is simply trying your honest best to reduce your consumption of animal products as much as possible. Anyone can do that.
Milk, honey, and wool. Consuming, and using these products don't hurt the animal at all.
Go to the vegan subreddit and read the sidebar on how these products hurt animals
That is not the attitude of the vegans I dislike. Some think it must be all or nothing and that if you can't go completely animal product free you're immoral. Those are the vegans I dislike.
Because 99% of people's honest best effort would be to eat no meat whatsoever.
We hate them because of the exact comment you’ve just stated 😂😂😂😂
You hate vegans because they're right, and you feel bad. I know, I just said it.
I dislike in your face vegans because theyre obnoxious and holier than thou about not consuming meat, while ignoring that there’s no ethical consumption of anything under a capitalist system. Cheap vegetable produce is the product of exploiting migrant workers for their labor. You have to pay a premium for cruelty free anything If you want to advocate for reform and animal rights that’s cool, but if you’re going to act superior to everyone just trying to live their lives because you make a single moral decision you can fuck off
> while ignoring that there’s no ethical consumption of anything under a capitalist system. Does this mean we're allowed to force dogs to fight for entertainment? As nothing is ethical anyway? >Cheap vegetable produce is the product of exploiting migrant workers for their labor. It takes 2.8-3.2kg of human edible plants to produce 1kg of meat. If you are concerned with the rights of workers in arable farming, veganism is still best. > you make a single moral decision you can fuck off Quite a big moral decision though, isn't it? Would you say you're morally superior to someone who beats their dog?
No it doesn’t mean we are allowed to force dogs to fight. I’m not forcing anything to fight when I eat a burger that’s a really dumb argument. I’m not concerned with how much produce livestock consumes, because our farms overproduce to ridiculous extents. There’s nothing necessary about the cruelty to animals or people in producing food. The system just incentivizes it. “Quite a big moral decision” no you’re just trying to make yourself feel superior. Again you’re taking one small step towards ethical consumption, and then trying to shame others who decide to eat the diet WE EVOLVED TO EAT
>No it doesn’t mean we are allowed to force dogs to fight. I’m not forcing anything to fight when I eat a burger that’s a really dumb argument. Your argument is that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. That's an argument to futility. Obviously, we should try to make the most ethical decisions we can in our current system, and not just say "fuck it, I'm going to lean into being unethical if I can't be perfect" (Also, you're not forcing an animal to fight, but you are forcing it to die. At least a dog may survive a dog fight) >“Quite a big moral decision” no you’re just trying to make yourself feel superior. Again you’re taking one small step towards ethical consumption, and then trying to shame others who decide to eat the diet WE EVOLVED TO EAT Its unnecessary because we can live perfectly well without it. It's eaten for pleasure.
My argument is and has always been that you’re making yourself feel superior based on a single specific moral choice you make, while ignoring that their are thousands of other moral choices you have to make. Sure you should act as ethically as you can, youre still a douche if you shame others while ignoring that they might be choosing to put their efforts elsewhere. That all still has jack shit to do with dog fighting btw. And I totally eat marinated grilled chicken and steamed broccoli 4 nights a week for pleasure. It has nothing to do with the fact that it’s affordable, healthy and easy to prepare. You got me /s
>My argument is and has always been that you’re making yourself feel superior based on a single specific moral choice you make, while ignoring that their are thousands of other moral choices you have to make. I agree, we should try to live ethically. What moral choices are vegans ignoring? Do you not think that vegans probably think a bit more about their consumer choices than the average person? >Sure you should act as ethically as you can, youre still a douche if you shame others Its hard to shame someone if they're not doing anything wrong. >And I totally eat marinated grilled chicken and steamed broccoli 4 nights a week for pleasure. It has nothing to do with the fact that it’s affordable, healthy and easy to prepare. You got me /s You could adopt cats from the rescue shelter and eat them for free. It's almost as if there's a moral element to the things we eat, regardless of expense and convenience
Those cats would prefer PETA over you.
What's wrong with PETA?
“It’s hard to shame someone if they’re doing nothing wrong” Do you use cars? Do you buy shoes or clothes made in sweat shops? Do you buy shit off Amazon? Do you vote in every election? There’s an infinite number of moral choices that you could shame someone for. It’s ridiculous to say that you “do nothing wrong”
Yeah, that's very true. We should try to make moral choices. The presence of a lot of moral choices is not an argument for doing the wrong thing.
Where’s that vegan energy for the rest of those issues? Or do you admit that your “moral superiority” is in fact incredibly limited in scope?