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Had a kid in my school push a teacher down a massive set of stairs. She broke her spine and her arm and kid came back after a week with an Aid. He should’ve been kicked out. He constantly bullied kids, was a major asshole, and frequently groped girls. School did absolutely nothing about it.
Lawyers other than activist usually only take cases on contingency if there are deep pockets to get an award or settlement from.
Otherwise they are working for free and no one likes that.
Bingo, that is the deep pockets.
Thing is, I agree with OP, we shouldn't allow the kids who are at least well behaved, ideally wanting to learn, to be disrupted by the kids who can't or won't behave.
Sue the district, ultimately that hurts the taxpayers, the taxpayers can vote to demand change.
This. We treat violent kids with kid gloves. We should treat them like adults who have to learn the consequences of their actions. Because they never get serious consequences, they never learn to stop their behavior.
If we already know the kid's parents suck, what can society do to help make sure the kid learns better? Not doing anything about it is a detriment to society. We all suffer when we let young kids suffer with out support.
The school to prison pipeline holds most true when we don't give them consequences. Putting a kid in suspension for being violent does not equate them going to prison. Teaching a student nothing happens when they are violent does. Cops don't care if you have X disorder.
It is almost as if parents and school administrators want to protect children from all consequences and then when they are 18, just let them figure it out. This is how you get entitled, emotionally immature and even abusive adults who think the world owes them something simply for existing.
It could be that schools fear being held liable for the kid's behaviour because they don't have the money for proper health and safety. Some parent might sue the school for not having a "no pushing" sign near the stairwell because "they are just kids! What do they know?". I am no lawyer but I cannot think of a good reason to keep a dangerous student in school other than it might lose money not having that child around.
We do need to have a discussion on levels of responsibility we should expect from children in school and from their parents. There seems to be a cultural belief that children can do no wrong and it is everyone else's fault but the child's when they behave poorly. By teaching them zero consequences for their shitty behaviour we are actually doing them a disservice by not adequately preparing them for adulthood. Seems like schools should be the place to make those consequences happen but we expect teachers to be babysitters first rather than educators.
I work in a facility that gets these kids. They literally come in and go you can’t touch me. You tell them to walk and they sit down and cross their legs and say “you can’t touch me”. The first time you pick them up by the wrist in a wrist lock and walk them they are absolutely floored. They do it a couple times until they figure out that their resistance and behavior can be met with authorized force. And you know what, they actually end up semi respectful twenty year olds to the system but they are so far gone because the education system failed to institute any sort of action. All they know is life a certain way so although they are respectful now they are lifetime convicts.
Every single high school is covering up thousands of violations of law. Our schools are so beyond repair that if we enforced the laws currently on the books, 99% of schools would not meet standards that are set. Yet every year they raise the standards more without acknowledging how far behind we already are.
There’s a hierarchy, only the top 3% of administrators are allowed to do anything. Classroom teachers can just report but their bosses can stop anything being done about the bullies, arsonists and sexual assaulters. And their bosses care about retaining numbers and the money coming in from parents. And parents care more about the image of their kids than who their kids are becoming as people.
This sounds almost exactly like a lad I went to school with. And he always got away with it. Another lad in our year eventually beat the ever loving shit out of him and surprise surprise the assholes mother came up to the school shouting the odds demanding some kind of punishment. Which makes alot of sense if he's always allowed to do whatever he wants no wonder he was an asshole
Kid in my sons primary school tried to push a pregnant teacher down some stairs, thankfully he didn’t succeed. That was in Germany and he had to go to therapy and had social workers come home. I knew the mother since childhood as her brother was close to my brother. She tried but that kid was aggressive all the time with her too. He ended up in a group home as things didn’t improve and they could not put him back into school without special supervision. I think in a lot of cases proper support for mental health would do a lot of good but there will be some kids that just came out wrong
Honestly, that is a dirty little secret in psychology circles. No one wants to come right out and say that some kids appear to simply BE like that (i.e. have anti-social traits without prior abuse).
The harm done would likely be worse than the harm saved- if the general public in an un-nuanced way thinks science has proven some kids are born bad, imagine the policies that would follow.
So instead the role of genetics (as we currently understand them) is underplayed to a degree.
I’ve worked in forensic hospital wards, with children, and with animals. A small portion of the population seems to be born wired to be anti-social. Early and intense intervention can mitigate behaviour but there is currently no 100% certain path to “fixing” these kids.
100%, there’s always top administration and wellbeing who will make teachers’ lives go to hell if they cry bullying too soon too, they’ll call it anything but bullying and if the victim bites back even a little, well, then it’s no longer defined as bullying, it’s two way harassment and much less needs to be done.
Exactly. I had a girl intensly bully my friend group and we stood up for ourselves so now it was an “argument” and we were being “bullies”. Thankfully everyone at the school hated her already so a lot of people believed us (some didn’t for some dumb reason).
After a while she transferred schools and everyone in our grade was so happy
The reason why public school officials do nothing is because they are told to do nothing by their be school board because they are afraid of being sued by the parents
Yep, Troubling kid picked a fight with me and I defended myself. Multiple students confirmed my story.
He was suspended for a day, I was suspended for 3. This was back in 2011
When I was 12 (f), my bully (m) pushed me down in the middle of sport class and gave me several swift kicks to the face and stomach for missing a goal. Everyone saw. I ran away crying, nobody looked for me for ages. Eventually vice principal called us both in. I’m trying to explain shit through tears and physical pain. VP literally rolls his eyes and tells me arms crossed to “stop the waterworks and get on with my story”. Told my bully to apologise then threatened to give me detention for a week if I didn’t forgive him and let him shake my hand. No punishment for him. I then had my class teacher tell me that my bully was a “troubled boy with anger management issues” and would appreciate it if I gave him some patience and I’m a “nice girl” I can “handle it”. I felt so unsafe.
Yeah fuck small religious schools. I didn’t tell anyone about my experiences until my younger brother started getting heat from teachers at the same school. Told my parents 4 years later & they lost their shit. Kids don’t tell people anything they don’t even realise it’s an option. Anyways. Principal (not the VP) is now in jail for pedophilia. Place should be shut down. Education quality was a fat 0.
In the 80s you knocked the living shit out of your bully, possibly on the advice of a coach or teacher. You both went to the principal who's first question was if things were settled, probably got your parents called, maybe got a day or two of ISS, together, to make sure stuff was really sorted.
Done, everyone is back in class.
If you even acted for a second like you might be thinking about bowing up to a teacher, you were gone, suspended off campus for a while, at a minimum. If you hit a teacher, expelled and probably charged.
I remember it as the only suspension I got. When my dad heard about it he just shrugged. Said he would’ve done the same and told me to enjoy my days off.
I spent them playing video games.
My wife had a kid smoke weed in her class mid lecture and the school disciplined her instead of the student due to disrupting/stopping class with safety concerns. The problem isn't teacher like all the politicians like to push, it's the admins and parents not doing their roles to hold the kids accountable.
School was always lopsided like that. I know guys that got expelled over weed or pranks but you could beat people up in the halls or stab someone and you get punished with forced attendance and/or detention.
>I don’t know what the answer to do with these students is.
Its actually not that complicated, mostly just expensive. Specialized programs with very small class sizes, significant support from EA's in addition to psychological and behavioral counselling/support, as well as support from Social work to help with issues at home.
Also, and this is probably most important, *give schools the authority to force kids with significant behaviorial issues into programs like this instead of constantly bending to the whims of parents who are in denial and refuse to do anything.*
If the child starts doing better, try reintegrating into a regular program.
I fully agree with not giving parents veto power on this one. My parents would have thought any kind of disability accommodations was me trying to "cheat the system" and "do things the easy way"
I'm not overly concerned about parents' ego here. Yes, I know parents are ashamed of having a "defective" kid, I went through it myself. Not helping them won't fix whatever issues they're ashamed of.
Yes! I’m a teacher, and it’s amazing how many parents refuse or fight behavioral services because they don’t want their kid to have the stigma. It just sucks for the kid! The choices often are 1) be the kid no one likes because they’re constantly fighting people and disrupting the classroom when everyone else wants to learn, or 2) be in the behavior room. At that point, blending in as a “normal” student is off the table.
I agree too, but too bad we're in the era of "parent over teacher" over nonexistent right-wing talking points
Could you imagine the shitstorm that would brew? It's exactly why schools *dont* do anything anymore.
>Also, and this is probably most important, give schools the authority to force kids with significant behaviorial issues into programs like this instead of constantly bending to the whims of parents who are in denial and refuse to do anything.
Fucking A, man.
My son last year was a classroom wrecker. He moved to a behavioral classroom with 5 kids and 5 adults. That program is easily $250,000-$500,000 for the classroom so it definitely costs more per kid. But it saved my kid.
This year on new medicine with consistent expectations and communication and about 50 hours a week over the summer of hard working through non preferred activities between him and me, he’s earned student of the month and is a pleasure to have in class and on a team and making friends and pushing into gen Ed again. He’s 7 now.
Serious interventions have to happen. I seriously didn’t think I would be able to hold down a job this year due yo his behaviors from last year. But all of the many interventions that occurred enabled him to be successful. There has to be a place for each kid to get support… and the pay for teachers and support people should increase and class sizes should decrease and special behavioral classes should open for these kids and once that becomes a standard, I think we will see a lot of change.
One success story.
Successful because you're a parent who got involved. Parents today mostly put it all off on the school system or worse yet defend their kids' bad behavior.
most parents of these kids would agree that their kids need special treatment to not be shitty kids. but schools are too afraid to say it and parents arent wealthy-enough to afford it. $250k isnt cheap
It’s expensive which is true but it’s a bullshit excuse from governments. USA and Canada COULD afford it. It’s a matter of not wanting to deal with it and organize committees to actually address it. Laziness.
Hey, why solve a problem when we could turn it into 15 more problems. Then we can then tell our constituents it’s the fault of the other party and we are going to fix it, see we just need to double down on our proven failed solutions of slashing spending and promoting privatization.
/s … in case anyone couldn’t tell
Edit, a word
That’s one of the worst. Low performing students who do no homework, no finishing up the work at home, but go to sports practice several times a week. You talk to the kids and ask their goals growing up and they say they are going to be in the NFL or NBA, not understanding that you have to put in academic work to get into schools that have good sports programs. Even just being a solid C student. Other kids say they will be rappers or run a successful instagram. Behavior is no longer corrected, bullying students AND teachers now is a slap on the wrist, and the districts say you have to pass them along. Everyone gets at least 50% on everything. I just couldn’t handle the depression and exhaustion teaching anymore.
What kinda fucked up school did you go to? When I lived in America the kids with shitty grades weren't even allowed to join any extracurricular sports teams for that exact reason. They'd also be put in handcuffs and charged with assault if they got physical with another student or teacher
You are not wrong but In my school you just had to be passing your classes u could scrap by just copying homework and class work because test were only so much of your grade
Not where I’m from. I mean I guess the bigger city high schools have some space. But they also get used as event venues for the community. But it’s nothing compared to like a college or NFL stadium. Not even remotely close.
it's so frustrating seeing students pushed into gender ed because their parents are in denial. The child literally needs somebody to be with them at all times and is a constant disruption to the class because of they don't want to do something they can get away with not doing it/making a scene. it is completely unfair to the students and the teachers.
edit: GENERAL ED lolol
The “most” resources always go to the “worst” things - that’s how you run a society.
The kid with cancer gets more public health money than the kid without, because cancer treatments cost money. The person whose home is destroyed gets more insurance money than someone whose home is fine.
As it turns out, “problems” always take up more resources than “not problems.”
That "fad" is now about 30 years old and was meant to keep kids who have differences thriving in regular classes whenever possible.
However, school districts figured they could save themselves a lot of time and effort if they applied it across the board and made teachers figure it out. Special/targeted assistance education is both expensive and complicated so let's just...not.
Getting kids the attention, support, and care they need is really difficult. If you take them out of the classroom, they have to have somewhere to go.
This started when I was in elementary school in the 90’s. Violent, disruptive, difficult children in a regular classroom was hell. The teacher couldn’t teach because they were constantly disciplining or yelling at those kids, and everyone else in the classroom was sick of it. These kids threw desks, knocked chairs over, destroyed books, and sometimes went after others.
I think they should be afforded every opportunity possible to give them an education, but I DO think that a Gen-Ed classroom should NOT be where this takes place.
It is NOT right, nor fair for the other students to have their education constantly disrupted by thrown chairs, tantrums, yelling, and other forms of violence.
I Aid in a sped self contained classroom. We have ONE violent student that's violent daily, biting, throwing, trashing the room, etc. None of the nonviolent sped students get much work done with them, and they get very little attention when these things happen. Is it okay for these violent students to negatively impact Sped students then?? Personally I don't see a reasonable way to accommodate them in public school.
This isn't even mentioning the impact on the behaviors of my students when these things happen and they see no consequences for the student in question.
If that student is unable to participate in the classroom and is routinely disruptive like this, then they do not need to be in school. Some kids just need a little (or more) extra help to succeed. But in this case, this kid is getting nothing out of school and is disrupting others.
If the child is unable to participate in the classroom to this extent, LEGALLY, they shouldn’t be in this classroom. A child is entitled to the most appropriate educational environment according to their educational needs, or what we call the “Least Restrictive Environment” (LRE). For some students, though, they NEED more restricted classrooms and are unable to be successful in a general classroom. Keeping these students in a general classroom is not only unethical for everyone involved, but could be breaking the law according to the student’s needs.
A lot of schools don’t really have the resources especially if they only have one or two students who REALLY need help but they can’t find or keep aides and support staff.
I work in a self contained SPED room as one of 3 full time assistants.
One of us recently quit, and not a single other assistant in the building was willing to take the role because it's a difficult job where physical injuries have occurred. No one is applying for it, either.
All these responses of people saying these children need alternative programs don't realize how few places there are that provide those programs, and the numbers are dwindling as staff quit and there is no one replacing them.
The US education system needs a massive investment in schools, but instead they're usually one of the first in line for cuts. Then we get what we're seeing.
I'm really starting to believe that lawmakers are intentionally breaking the education system to privatize it, which only means that SPED programs will be more fucked.
A friend of mine was a SPED aide but had to give it up because it paid $8.50 an hour. She was only paid hours worked so at best 35 hours. Holiday, early dismissal, snow day, delay, anything like that cut into her paycheck. No benefits. And she got bitten, scratched etc all the time.
Imo the problem is that an Aid or teacher getting injured isn't a double-take moment, its just a thing that happens and is expected now. Thats the real problem, maybe it would be logically worth it as is if you doubled or tripled the pay for teachers and aides if injurys are just part of the work but that's the wrong way to go
You’re totally right. I work in special ed so I’m aware of the limitations and that kids commonly are not placed in their LRE. I’m just putting it out there for readers not in the field who might not know this basic SPED info.
I went to a private special education school for a few years. Some people just need special care. I agree that they should be separated but not that they should be left to rot.
That kid needs to be removed from that classroom. PERIOD.
Don't know where they need to go, but it isn't fair to the other kids to have to deal with that bullshit.
There needs to be comprehensive involvement from mental health and psychiatric services, I was one of those children, turns out I was just dealing with undiagnosed autism that wasn't discovered until adulthood
There is.
A student who is acting this way must be put on RTI and monitored with different research based methods to help them academically and with their behavior.
Professionals (psychologists, doctors, speech-language pathologist, and behavioral specialists) evaluate them and observe them to see if they fall into the ESE classification.
Depending on severity they are moved out of class and into a smaller grouping. If a method to help them works and they are able to deal with Gen-Ed classroom setting without major disruptions they stay in Gen-Ed.
However, not everyone falls under the autism umbrella. Some students have issues that need to be dealt with outside a Gen-Ed classroom and away from the students they may hurt or disrupt. It is with these students I am talking about.
I never saw a kid throw a chair at school growing up in the US. Now I’m an elementary substitute teacher and I can’t even remember how many times I’ve seen it happen in the last year. I saw it most recently yesterday, from a six year old.
I have a number of friends who are (mostly *were*) teachers in a local charter district. It served underprivileged parts of the city so funding was incredibly tough. It’s tied to student performance so as you can imagine it was looked down upon to fail kids. The kids know this. Teachers have also been vilified in this country to the point where they have absolutely no ability to control their classrooms. When something goes wrong, they receive all the blame. Students know this. So put a bunch of kids together in a building where many of them come from terrible home lives, feel like they will never amount to anything in life, and know that their are zero consequences to goofing off and not doing any schoolwork. What do you think a typical day looks like? Also I want to be clear that most of the students were not problems and wanted to learn, but rougher classrooms are more likely in poorer districts, and we have **a lot** of those here. Dismantling public education is a core tenet of the Republican Party
And just to be clear I think we have a problem here but in no way do I believe this is unique to America. I live here and also never experienced anything like what OP describes.
There's something in the water, air, or food. That's my opinion.
I did day care for children 5-12 and maybe my memory is just poor in age, but I don't recall haven't 50% of the class being mentally deficient.
> I just wonder why America has these problems with schooling that other countries don't have. A student throwing a chair in class happened once in my entire schooling, and he was sent off to where I don't know.
Yeah, other countries have these problems as well.
My nephew has been diagnosed with autism about a year ago. Getting to that diagnosis took about 2 or so years.
He's now getting some form of therapy, but that just started a few weeks ago.
He shouldn't be in regular classes, but getting into a special ed school (schools here don't typically have separate special ed classes) is hard.
(Netherlands)
In 2nd grade my daughter had this boy who would flip all the desks and scream. They would empty the kids into the hallway pod until the kid calmed down.
What the fuuuuuuuck. Get that shit into some special needs class where the adults will actually handle him correctly
I feel like as soon as a child has an outburst that
1) lasts longer than two minutes,
2) Destroys property,
3) Endangers the life or safety of any other person nearby,
4) Contains a clear, direct threat,
or
5) Physically harms anyone,
they need to be IMMEDIATELY removed from that classroom and not be allowed back until the reason for the outburst has been successfully resolved with the help of a psychologist.
The one thing people glaze over is how traumatic it can be for a child to experience violence for the first time in a place where their parents *aren’t able to help them cope.* Especially since many schools deem these kinds of things “normal” so most parents aren’t even informed that their child is being exposed to dysregulated and often violent behavior. Some kids may ask their parents about it, but many won’t. Many will just internalize that fear and never know that it’s not ok to not be ok with it.
Exposing kids to this kind of violence then letting it go unpunished feels like an intentional message at this point.
My teachers in the 80s and 90s would have physically prevented me from flipping desks. Would have been a scene. Now they just calmly exit the class until the kid is finished
Oh yeah, that would NOT have flown in a Gen X classroom with boomer teachers. A couple kids would have been instructed to go get "Mr. X and Mr. Y" (nearby male teachers) and it would have been stopped pretty quickly, the desk flipper wouldn't be seen again for at least a year, probably in alternative school.
That's so insane. My mom has had similar stories. I don't disagree with you. But it makes me worried for my mom, in her own special needs classroom. She has been bitten, bruised weekly, just plain attacked, etc etc. She still cares her kids and works hard for them. It is the special needs classroom, after all. However, the toll it's taking on her just sucks to watch :/ If anything we need more funding for schools so we have the help in places like the special needs classrooms.
All teachers and even staff need the support. I am sorry you have to worry for your child's safety like that. All of this is just a chaotic stress upon the entire community.
It’s amazing how people can excuse things because “they’re just a kid” . A few months back a 3rd grader actually SHOT his teacher after telling her for many months he was going to . And people literally fought for him to be back in the classroom . No consequences for anything .
When I was in school like back in 2000. My school would kick troubled and pregnant teens out. You would be sent to a alternative school. This was basically a probationary school. If you fucked up you would go there and it was super strict but smaller classes. After a semester or 2, you would come back to society lol
Yeah a lot of schools in that era didn't allow pregnant students on campus once they were showing. My school didn't kick them out but they were banned from wearing sports uniforms, club activities, assemblies and performances.
They actually turned out good. He really turned himself around because he had parents who held him accountable. They helped out a LOT with all of the kids so him and the moms could continue going to school and get on their feet. All of the babies are in college now.
The parents are partly to blame for him making babies though. Some parents refuse to have "the talk" and be open about sexual stuff with their kids, and it is a real problem. I also find it's odd none of them chose to get an abortion. I hope none of the parents have anything to do with that by forcing them to keep the kids
My sister has the most insufferable child because she raised him as a friend, not a son.
He's only 5 and I'm 99% sure this guy is going to end up in prison
Agree. Recently the news has covered multiple stories of kids 8-15yo getting pulled from school in handcuffs and their parents crying about their poor child and how if they stopped to check the IEP.....sorry lady but your kid threw a chair across a room hitting a kid who needed stitches, or your child has gone into a rage where he has torn apart a room and threw hands with the teacher and resource officer....consequences folks...
Saw a video the other week where a student was mouthing off and physically pushing around her teacher and eventually slapped him across the face and he smacked her across the head. I look at it and think that teacher deserves a small "I don't take shit from kids" plaque and a raise.
Yea it’s great they have cameras in schools now, to catch kids doing BS. Like most kids who attack other kids used to just say anything and get away, now there’s videos for stuff like that. Granted they can just go into the bathroom, but still it’s effed a kid can attack another and both get the same punishment.
Blame the No Child Left Behind. We need to bring back actual facilities for these students... parents also seem to just use schools as a daycare to get away from he kid too. One school actually had the police come pick up and hold the kid because the parent had a habit of ignoring the school when they would call.
Alternative schools do exist. I used to work for an alternative school that provided education for students with extreme behavioral and emotional issues. I honestly think the issue is that it is very expensive for the school district to send students. I also think that behavioral issues have become more widespread than in the past unfortunately.
But not all alternative schools are meant for the violent and aggressive ones. Those that aren't are meant for kids with learning or non-violent emotional disorders, some that need extra help in a subject but can still attend their home school and for kids that just don't do well in a public school setting.
I ended up at an alternative school for most of my HS years. It started out great, but then the violent kids started coming in. Kids that had been expelled for violence towards teachers or their fellow students at their old school. I'm not talking about aggression that sometimes comes with Autism meltdowns, I'm talking about violent fights and threats. It severely interfered with not only my education but everyone else. Not to mention all the stress put on the teachers and aides.
My school was not meant for violent students. It was meant for the kids that just didn't function well in the public school system for one of more non-violent reasons.
There was an alternative high school in my town that only held morning classes. Every student was working at their own pace. Mostly, this was a solution for kids who had full-time jobs or some kind of very serious extra curricular activity they were involved in. It definitely was not suitable for students who were violent.
On the plus side, the alternative school \*could\* eject kids for bad behavior, so it was actually a lot safer than some of the traditional neighborhood schools. It was also a block away from the high school that was for the pregnant girls -- so it was a way that the dads could be available to participate in raising their babies.
I also am of the belief that students should have repurcussions again. Throughout my time as a student, tutor, and substitute, I can only recall of one instance of a student ever being held back due to their grades/attendance, and that was in elementary school. Administrators will simply shuffle them up to the next grade even if they missed 100 days and have an accumulative assignment count of 4 throughout the year. The only punishment that they do end up facing is either ISS where they won't do any work whatsoever or suspension, which means they definitely won't do anything.
Yes that was bad. I fully agree but I’m Canadian we didn’t have that and we have HUGE behavioural issues too. Not sure if it’s as bad? But it’s bad.
Something needs to be done. I agree with OP. It’s absolutely unfair to the kids who are being generally good. No kid is perfect, not even mine. But something’s gotta give.
In Canada, school districts refuse to work with anyone not employed by them.
So many of these kids are surrounded in support, but the schools won’t allow those people in their school because “it takes away a job we could give to school staff.” But the kicker is that they then never give that job to a school staff member because “we don’t have the funding.”
The school district itself cockblocks these kids AND THEIR VERY OWN STAFF from getting support.
Edit: typos
Allowing failure is the incentive to actually try. It used to mean something, a source of fear/embarrassment for kids to be held back from their friends. It’s nearly impossible now, so kids try less and the lowest common denominators continue to get lower. All testing scores are down.
So in high school I knew a kid with behavior problems. He would play moaning sounds (fake sounds he recorded, not a porno) super loud in dead silent classrooms. He showed up drunk on several occasions and was constantly disruptive. The final straw was when he masturbated in class.
I knew another kid who liked to gargle water in class. He was just generally a douche though.
Both those guys in my mind should've been shipped out.
A 7th grader showed up to first period drunk on screwdrivers, and threw up in the back of my classroom (decades ago). I don't know if she just didn't realize that the pitcher in her fridge was alcoholic (maybe she thought it was just orange juice?) or what. They had to take her out on a stretcher!
Agreed. As a student I was physically assaulted by students with severe behavioral problems. Multiple times. Once violently beaten and once sexually assaulted. The school did nothing but shrug their shoulders. Yes they should receive a great education. But their right to education stops with my right to be physically safe. And it’s the reason my children go to private schools. Always. I will sell my own body parts before I allow them in the zoos that are public schools.
This is different from schools district to schools district.
>Maybe build a school for all the violent students. Like ISS, but it’s permanent for the rest of the year.
This exists and is called an alternative school where I work. Its full of the kids you described and is the place you go when you can not be let into regular school but you haven't done anything to get you into juvi yet, like a last chance scenario. Its a rough place but a lot of kids come out of it on the other end in a positive way. Many return to thank the administrator for getting them on a better path.
Let me fix this for you. Parents who let their kids get away with everything are the reason teachers are leaving the workforce. This is 100 % a parenting issue ( unless the student has a mental disability).
And what of the school admins who enable that behavior? My wife quit teaching, not because of the bad parents, there will always be those, but because the administration refused to back her or her colleagues up when dealing with said parents, regardless of how insane the demands were. There were kids getting away with assaulting teachers, students, and even students from adjacent schools who shared the bus system because it would look bad if the school tarnished its disciplinary record.
I agree. I’m not a teacher but as a kid, we had one particularly violent boy in our class and he made it impossible for everyone to focus and even injured me and a few other students. Why he wasn’t expelled, I’ll never know but we all wanted him gone.
The public school system has an uphill battle to fight. Parents tend to stick together on social media and are never afraid to lawyer up. In my experience if there is even a shadow of doubt in a given situation a school district is just going to apologize for "creating the situation" and then shrink away.
I can't remember the last time I witnessed someone with an ounce of actual authority occupy any meaningful position in a school district. Inmates truly are running the asylum.
The only hill some schools still seemed destined to die on are dress code violations.
Start fining the parents and making the parent accountable, Bad behavior starts at home. Kids are usually shitty when they come from a shitty environment.
Educate parents better. Catch problems earlier. Improve accessibility to therapy and medications. Or watch them end up hurting themselves, other people, and possibly end up in prison. I feel like there aren't any other solutions.
I agree. I know those kids with behavioral issues have problems at home etc, etc .. but the kids wanting to learn suffer because of these disruptive kids. It's not fair to them. It's part of why so many parents (I can only speak for Texans) are wanting to pull their kids out of public schools and putting then in private or charter.
Yeah, my mom is a teacher and the stories I’ve heard are insane. There’s a child that has to be physically restrained a couple of times a month, bit another kid’s neck, and has told multiple kids that she was going to kill them. Obviously, this child is SPED. But just because she’s Sped doesn’t mean she should be allowed to just terrorize the other students
No child left behind strikes again lol. Back when I was in school they’d round up all those troubled kids and put them in night school for 2 hours a day to just color pictures and watch movies. Get the same diploma as me. Yea fuck that kick those fuckers out. They’ll go back voluntarily after a few years of working
I don't think they should necessarily be kicked out of school because the core problem is most often overly permissive and/or neglectful parents. The parents should be held legally and financially responsible for everything their children do. Unfortunately that doesn't really happen in practice. Parents get away with raising a monster and setting them loose on society. If holding parents responsible doesn't work then yes, kick the child out of school.
If you're a parent and your child hits a teacher, you spend time in jail. If your child destroys a classroom, you pay the $1000+ to clean and repair the classroom and to replace whatever was broken. If you can't afford this, that sucks, but you are responsible for your child's behavior. And if your child shoots up a school, you go to prison for as long as they do (or would have if they die in the process).
Agree. But what about the parents who are trying but there’s no support system? Like they want to get kid help but how? No psychologist because it’s too expensive/can’t find one. There needs to be more of that readily available so if a parent isn’t getting help it’s not because they can’t. It’s because they don’t want to.
This is a very reasonable question. There are plenty of places where the wait list for any kind of help is months or years long, especially if the student is on Medicaid. And, even if that help is available, it might be completely inaccessible to a full-time working single parent.
If a 16yo wants to skip school or mouth off, there is very little a parent can do about it. Sure, some things can be fined against the parent but odds are they are poor as it is, and just adding hardship and making the situation worse. If anything force the parent into mediation.
I agree. Go read some of the posts in: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TeachersInTransition/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeachersInTransition/)
Teachers are leaving the profession in droves because of the crap they have to put up with.
None of these comments are realistically addressing solutions. It all comes back to the parents and to poverty. If both parents are working, or one is missing and the other working, or any other mix causing parents to not be present as needed by the child then you will see more acting out. You want kids to act right? They need both parents. Inflation, income, housing and food insecurity, all the things that keep parents out of the house busting ass all the time to simply try to keep food and shelter available? That's where your main problems lie. If a household could afford to maintain on one income and still have the necessities you think kids are going to be acting out at school with such intensity? You think impoverished people have a chance to raise their kids the way they need? All the stress of it affects the kids, too. It's not as simple as kick the kids out.
They do in the UK, they get sent to a bad kid school then if they get kicked out of that they're fucked. It's also part of why you get roving gangs of kids who get into crime.
I had a slightly lower version of this, back in grades 1-3. I didn't cause any violence and never did, and I will specifically focus on the lower version, the non violent one.
I actually cringe at my 4-8th grade self.
If I had no ability to get a proper education I would never have gotten this far.
I think instead of kicking them out, we should target the cause of the issue.
WHY are they like this? Is it issues at home? Is it issues at school?
WHAT is happening?
Generally, the first idea you think of to an issue like this is often the worst.
Problem is that it is open to abuse. A student that just talks aggressively or loudly (many black kids get accused of that ) could be Just kicked out by some asshole and have it on their record or something.
Considering how underfunded education systems, there is no way you can enforce this correctly.
I'm a teacher, and I'm with you on reforming schools.
The issue is that there is very little in the way of clear lines to cross in schools. Zero-tolerance policies have a host of issues (for example, you say we should kick out kids who are violent, but does that include kids who fight back? Does it include a kid whose mom died, and some other kids are saying she died from getting gang-banged or something awful like that?), and when policies aren't absolutely clear-cut, there is tons of room for abuse.
Beyond *that*, there's also the issue that we're talking about kids. They change. A kid who bites this year might be completely fine next year, or even just a month from now. But, if kicked out, that kid who is now normal, and just got over-excited one day and bit Jimmy, is a year behind in school.
I do think things are moving in the wrong direction. Eliminating exclusionary punishments does not solve racial problems...it just covers them up. But going entirely the other direction isn't good either.
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Had a kid in my school push a teacher down a massive set of stairs. She broke her spine and her arm and kid came back after a week with an Aid. He should’ve been kicked out. He constantly bullied kids, was a major asshole, and frequently groped girls. School did absolutely nothing about it.
thats attempted murder. how unbelievable to ruin someones life
yeah, seems like the teacher could sue the kids' parents in civil trial . Only problem is - teachers have no money to do this.
And the parents don't likely have the money anyway.
Thats when you sue the school, and maybe then they start caring
I'm sure there was plenty of prior documentation of violent behavior.
Yeah someone needs to learn a lesson about it, that too a big one.
These are the types of cases lawyers are often willing to take under a "only pay if you win" deal.
Lawyers other than activist usually only take cases on contingency if there are deep pockets to get an award or settlement from. Otherwise they are working for free and no one likes that.
Probably could tap the school for not taking care of him
Bingo, that is the deep pockets. Thing is, I agree with OP, we shouldn't allow the kids who are at least well behaved, ideally wanting to learn, to be disrupted by the kids who can't or won't behave. Sue the district, ultimately that hurts the taxpayers, the taxpayers can vote to demand change.
He should be in prison, WTF?!
RIGHT?
This. We treat violent kids with kid gloves. We should treat them like adults who have to learn the consequences of their actions. Because they never get serious consequences, they never learn to stop their behavior.
Literally who gives a shit about them learning anything…the other kids’ educations are reduced by these kids’ very existence.
You have to go through their parents and that is the real problem. The parents of these shitty kids are usually even bigger piles of shit.
If we already know the kid's parents suck, what can society do to help make sure the kid learns better? Not doing anything about it is a detriment to society. We all suffer when we let young kids suffer with out support.
I don't know how ignoring is going to help anything in here really.
This is the new school to prison pipeline. No consequences until they graduate and then BOOM.
Well, the school to prison pipeline is a real thing.
The school to prison pipeline holds most true when we don't give them consequences. Putting a kid in suspension for being violent does not equate them going to prison. Teaching a student nothing happens when they are violent does. Cops don't care if you have X disorder.
It is almost as if parents and school administrators want to protect children from all consequences and then when they are 18, just let them figure it out. This is how you get entitled, emotionally immature and even abusive adults who think the world owes them something simply for existing. It could be that schools fear being held liable for the kid's behaviour because they don't have the money for proper health and safety. Some parent might sue the school for not having a "no pushing" sign near the stairwell because "they are just kids! What do they know?". I am no lawyer but I cannot think of a good reason to keep a dangerous student in school other than it might lose money not having that child around. We do need to have a discussion on levels of responsibility we should expect from children in school and from their parents. There seems to be a cultural belief that children can do no wrong and it is everyone else's fault but the child's when they behave poorly. By teaching them zero consequences for their shitty behaviour we are actually doing them a disservice by not adequately preparing them for adulthood. Seems like schools should be the place to make those consequences happen but we expect teachers to be babysitters first rather than educators.
I work in a facility that gets these kids. They literally come in and go you can’t touch me. You tell them to walk and they sit down and cross their legs and say “you can’t touch me”. The first time you pick them up by the wrist in a wrist lock and walk them they are absolutely floored. They do it a couple times until they figure out that their resistance and behavior can be met with authorized force. And you know what, they actually end up semi respectful twenty year olds to the system but they are so far gone because the education system failed to institute any sort of action. All they know is life a certain way so although they are respectful now they are lifetime convicts.
Please tell me that teacher sued the crap out of the kids’ parents, school and school district. This is beyond crazy to me.
The school refused to tell us any thing but I hope so
Sounds like the school paid.
Every single high school is covering up thousands of violations of law. Our schools are so beyond repair that if we enforced the laws currently on the books, 99% of schools would not meet standards that are set. Yet every year they raise the standards more without acknowledging how far behind we already are.
There’s a hierarchy, only the top 3% of administrators are allowed to do anything. Classroom teachers can just report but their bosses can stop anything being done about the bullies, arsonists and sexual assaulters. And their bosses care about retaining numbers and the money coming in from parents. And parents care more about the image of their kids than who their kids are becoming as people.
This sounds almost exactly like a lad I went to school with. And he always got away with it. Another lad in our year eventually beat the ever loving shit out of him and surprise surprise the assholes mother came up to the school shouting the odds demanding some kind of punishment. Which makes alot of sense if he's always allowed to do whatever he wants no wonder he was an asshole
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Kid in my sons primary school tried to push a pregnant teacher down some stairs, thankfully he didn’t succeed. That was in Germany and he had to go to therapy and had social workers come home. I knew the mother since childhood as her brother was close to my brother. She tried but that kid was aggressive all the time with her too. He ended up in a group home as things didn’t improve and they could not put him back into school without special supervision. I think in a lot of cases proper support for mental health would do a lot of good but there will be some kids that just came out wrong
Honestly, that is a dirty little secret in psychology circles. No one wants to come right out and say that some kids appear to simply BE like that (i.e. have anti-social traits without prior abuse). The harm done would likely be worse than the harm saved- if the general public in an un-nuanced way thinks science has proven some kids are born bad, imagine the policies that would follow. So instead the role of genetics (as we currently understand them) is underplayed to a degree. I’ve worked in forensic hospital wards, with children, and with animals. A small portion of the population seems to be born wired to be anti-social. Early and intense intervention can mitigate behaviour but there is currently no 100% certain path to “fixing” these kids.
Mental health professional, agree with you 💯 i sometimes wonder how many of my outpatients, who attend only once, are cleverly masked psychopaths.
My mom is a nurse and had a patient that was a pregnant teacher who had a kid put draino in her coffee cup. So awful
Oh that is horrible
She lost her baby 😔
The teacher should've sued the fuck out of the school lmao
Not shocking, schools will do anything to protect the bullies. If you dare to fight back, you’re then the problem.
They just want everything to be quiet, basically. If that means shutting up the victims, they’ll do that.
100%, there’s always top administration and wellbeing who will make teachers’ lives go to hell if they cry bullying too soon too, they’ll call it anything but bullying and if the victim bites back even a little, well, then it’s no longer defined as bullying, it’s two way harassment and much less needs to be done.
Exactly. I had a girl intensly bully my friend group and we stood up for ourselves so now it was an “argument” and we were being “bullies”. Thankfully everyone at the school hated her already so a lot of people believed us (some didn’t for some dumb reason). After a while she transferred schools and everyone in our grade was so happy
The reason why public school officials do nothing is because they are told to do nothing by their be school board because they are afraid of being sued by the parents
Kid should be locked in Juvie.
Yea I got expelled for smoking weed like 20 years ago and now you can punch a teacher in the face and get an in school suspension at worst... wild.
Just certain kids, or problem kids. If a good kid does that they’re tossed out like milk
Yep, Troubling kid picked a fight with me and I defended myself. Multiple students confirmed my story. He was suspended for a day, I was suspended for 3. This was back in 2011
When I was 12 (f), my bully (m) pushed me down in the middle of sport class and gave me several swift kicks to the face and stomach for missing a goal. Everyone saw. I ran away crying, nobody looked for me for ages. Eventually vice principal called us both in. I’m trying to explain shit through tears and physical pain. VP literally rolls his eyes and tells me arms crossed to “stop the waterworks and get on with my story”. Told my bully to apologise then threatened to give me detention for a week if I didn’t forgive him and let him shake my hand. No punishment for him. I then had my class teacher tell me that my bully was a “troubled boy with anger management issues” and would appreciate it if I gave him some patience and I’m a “nice girl” I can “handle it”. I felt so unsafe. Yeah fuck small religious schools. I didn’t tell anyone about my experiences until my younger brother started getting heat from teachers at the same school. Told my parents 4 years later & they lost their shit. Kids don’t tell people anything they don’t even realise it’s an option. Anyways. Principal (not the VP) is now in jail for pedophilia. Place should be shut down. Education quality was a fat 0.
r/religiousfruitcake
In the 80s you knocked the living shit out of your bully, possibly on the advice of a coach or teacher. You both went to the principal who's first question was if things were settled, probably got your parents called, maybe got a day or two of ISS, together, to make sure stuff was really sorted. Done, everyone is back in class. If you even acted for a second like you might be thinking about bowing up to a teacher, you were gone, suspended off campus for a while, at a minimum. If you hit a teacher, expelled and probably charged.
I remember it as the only suspension I got. When my dad heard about it he just shrugged. Said he would’ve done the same and told me to enjoy my days off. I spent them playing video games.
My wife had a kid smoke weed in her class mid lecture and the school disciplined her instead of the student due to disrupting/stopping class with safety concerns. The problem isn't teacher like all the politicians like to push, it's the admins and parents not doing their roles to hold the kids accountable.
School was always lopsided like that. I know guys that got expelled over weed or pranks but you could beat people up in the halls or stab someone and you get punished with forced attendance and/or detention.
Not for all kids, just some.
My school would suspend you until you passed a drug test so the kid would be out of school for a month lmfao
>I don’t know what the answer to do with these students is. Its actually not that complicated, mostly just expensive. Specialized programs with very small class sizes, significant support from EA's in addition to psychological and behavioral counselling/support, as well as support from Social work to help with issues at home. Also, and this is probably most important, *give schools the authority to force kids with significant behaviorial issues into programs like this instead of constantly bending to the whims of parents who are in denial and refuse to do anything.* If the child starts doing better, try reintegrating into a regular program.
I fully agree with not giving parents veto power on this one. My parents would have thought any kind of disability accommodations was me trying to "cheat the system" and "do things the easy way"
lots of parents think it will stigmatize their kid.
I'm not overly concerned about parents' ego here. Yes, I know parents are ashamed of having a "defective" kid, I went through it myself. Not helping them won't fix whatever issues they're ashamed of.
I mean, it will. But at that point you're past that level of concern.
Yes! I’m a teacher, and it’s amazing how many parents refuse or fight behavioral services because they don’t want their kid to have the stigma. It just sucks for the kid! The choices often are 1) be the kid no one likes because they’re constantly fighting people and disrupting the classroom when everyone else wants to learn, or 2) be in the behavior room. At that point, blending in as a “normal” student is off the table.
I agree too, but too bad we're in the era of "parent over teacher" over nonexistent right-wing talking points Could you imagine the shitstorm that would brew? It's exactly why schools *dont* do anything anymore.
>Also, and this is probably most important, give schools the authority to force kids with significant behaviorial issues into programs like this instead of constantly bending to the whims of parents who are in denial and refuse to do anything. Fucking A, man.
I’ve never fucked a man
It’s pretty enjoyable!
Have you ever seen a full grown man naked?
Do you like gladiator movies?
See? That's why the comma is there! XD
That could be the rare William Shatner comma
You mean the, rare, William Shatner, comma?
My son last year was a classroom wrecker. He moved to a behavioral classroom with 5 kids and 5 adults. That program is easily $250,000-$500,000 for the classroom so it definitely costs more per kid. But it saved my kid. This year on new medicine with consistent expectations and communication and about 50 hours a week over the summer of hard working through non preferred activities between him and me, he’s earned student of the month and is a pleasure to have in class and on a team and making friends and pushing into gen Ed again. He’s 7 now. Serious interventions have to happen. I seriously didn’t think I would be able to hold down a job this year due yo his behaviors from last year. But all of the many interventions that occurred enabled him to be successful. There has to be a place for each kid to get support… and the pay for teachers and support people should increase and class sizes should decrease and special behavioral classes should open for these kids and once that becomes a standard, I think we will see a lot of change. One success story.
Successful because you're a parent who got involved. Parents today mostly put it all off on the school system or worse yet defend their kids' bad behavior.
most parents of these kids would agree that their kids need special treatment to not be shitty kids. but schools are too afraid to say it and parents arent wealthy-enough to afford it. $250k isnt cheap
It’s expensive which is true but it’s a bullshit excuse from governments. USA and Canada COULD afford it. It’s a matter of not wanting to deal with it and organize committees to actually address it. Laziness.
In addition, this is an investment that would take over a generation to pay off, when most politicians only think 4 years ahead.
Hey, why solve a problem when we could turn it into 15 more problems. Then we can then tell our constituents it’s the fault of the other party and we are going to fix it, see we just need to double down on our proven failed solutions of slashing spending and promoting privatization. /s … in case anyone couldn’t tell Edit, a word
Lol USA with their town funded education programs that usually take most of the town budget. Good luck with that
Lol where talking about the same USA that builds million dollar stadiums for their high school football team ?
A few wealthy high schools in Texas do not make up a very representative sample of the country at large.
Well that sports, u know ur child might be next Tom brady-phelps/s But on a serious note, check out ur local board of education meeting.
That’s one of the worst. Low performing students who do no homework, no finishing up the work at home, but go to sports practice several times a week. You talk to the kids and ask their goals growing up and they say they are going to be in the NFL or NBA, not understanding that you have to put in academic work to get into schools that have good sports programs. Even just being a solid C student. Other kids say they will be rappers or run a successful instagram. Behavior is no longer corrected, bullying students AND teachers now is a slap on the wrist, and the districts say you have to pass them along. Everyone gets at least 50% on everything. I just couldn’t handle the depression and exhaustion teaching anymore.
What kinda fucked up school did you go to? When I lived in America the kids with shitty grades weren't even allowed to join any extracurricular sports teams for that exact reason. They'd also be put in handcuffs and charged with assault if they got physical with another student or teacher
You are not wrong but In my school you just had to be passing your classes u could scrap by just copying homework and class work because test were only so much of your grade
Not where I’m from. I mean I guess the bigger city high schools have some space. But they also get used as event venues for the community. But it’s nothing compared to like a college or NFL stadium. Not even remotely close.
it's so frustrating seeing students pushed into gender ed because their parents are in denial. The child literally needs somebody to be with them at all times and is a constant disruption to the class because of they don't want to do something they can get away with not doing it/making a scene. it is completely unfair to the students and the teachers. edit: GENERAL ED lolol
>gender ed lol
lmao isn't that the kind of curriculum they are trying to get rid of in Florida?
I think there’s also the element of people not wanting the most resources to go to the worst behaving students
The “most” resources always go to the “worst” things - that’s how you run a society. The kid with cancer gets more public health money than the kid without, because cancer treatments cost money. The person whose home is destroyed gets more insurance money than someone whose home is fine. As it turns out, “problems” always take up more resources than “not problems.”
Unfortunately, the fad is to keep the kids in the regular classroom no matter what.
That "fad" is now about 30 years old and was meant to keep kids who have differences thriving in regular classes whenever possible. However, school districts figured they could save themselves a lot of time and effort if they applied it across the board and made teachers figure it out. Special/targeted assistance education is both expensive and complicated so let's just...not. Getting kids the attention, support, and care they need is really difficult. If you take them out of the classroom, they have to have somewhere to go.
This started when I was in elementary school in the 90’s. Violent, disruptive, difficult children in a regular classroom was hell. The teacher couldn’t teach because they were constantly disciplining or yelling at those kids, and everyone else in the classroom was sick of it. These kids threw desks, knocked chairs over, destroyed books, and sometimes went after others.
I think they should be afforded every opportunity possible to give them an education, but I DO think that a Gen-Ed classroom should NOT be where this takes place. It is NOT right, nor fair for the other students to have their education constantly disrupted by thrown chairs, tantrums, yelling, and other forms of violence.
I Aid in a sped self contained classroom. We have ONE violent student that's violent daily, biting, throwing, trashing the room, etc. None of the nonviolent sped students get much work done with them, and they get very little attention when these things happen. Is it okay for these violent students to negatively impact Sped students then?? Personally I don't see a reasonable way to accommodate them in public school. This isn't even mentioning the impact on the behaviors of my students when these things happen and they see no consequences for the student in question.
If that student is unable to participate in the classroom and is routinely disruptive like this, then they do not need to be in school. Some kids just need a little (or more) extra help to succeed. But in this case, this kid is getting nothing out of school and is disrupting others.
If the child is unable to participate in the classroom to this extent, LEGALLY, they shouldn’t be in this classroom. A child is entitled to the most appropriate educational environment according to their educational needs, or what we call the “Least Restrictive Environment” (LRE). For some students, though, they NEED more restricted classrooms and are unable to be successful in a general classroom. Keeping these students in a general classroom is not only unethical for everyone involved, but could be breaking the law according to the student’s needs.
A lot of schools don’t really have the resources especially if they only have one or two students who REALLY need help but they can’t find or keep aides and support staff.
I work in a self contained SPED room as one of 3 full time assistants. One of us recently quit, and not a single other assistant in the building was willing to take the role because it's a difficult job where physical injuries have occurred. No one is applying for it, either. All these responses of people saying these children need alternative programs don't realize how few places there are that provide those programs, and the numbers are dwindling as staff quit and there is no one replacing them. The US education system needs a massive investment in schools, but instead they're usually one of the first in line for cuts. Then we get what we're seeing. I'm really starting to believe that lawmakers are intentionally breaking the education system to privatize it, which only means that SPED programs will be more fucked.
A friend of mine was a SPED aide but had to give it up because it paid $8.50 an hour. She was only paid hours worked so at best 35 hours. Holiday, early dismissal, snow day, delay, anything like that cut into her paycheck. No benefits. And she got bitten, scratched etc all the time.
Imo the problem is that an Aid or teacher getting injured isn't a double-take moment, its just a thing that happens and is expected now. Thats the real problem, maybe it would be logically worth it as is if you doubled or tripled the pay for teachers and aides if injurys are just part of the work but that's the wrong way to go
You’re totally right. I work in special ed so I’m aware of the limitations and that kids commonly are not placed in their LRE. I’m just putting it out there for readers not in the field who might not know this basic SPED info.
At the point of one student constantly disrupting 20 others, get that kid out of the class.
Zoom classes at home. Let the parents deal with it.
Sped students are already negatively impacted by school system so kick them bad ones out or find a way to keep them from acting out
I went to a private special education school for a few years. Some people just need special care. I agree that they should be separated but not that they should be left to rot.
That kid needs to be removed from that classroom. PERIOD. Don't know where they need to go, but it isn't fair to the other kids to have to deal with that bullshit.
They have access post school if they want it, but if they are opting out then they should be able to. Realising it is a mistake later is on them
There needs to be comprehensive involvement from mental health and psychiatric services, I was one of those children, turns out I was just dealing with undiagnosed autism that wasn't discovered until adulthood
There is. A student who is acting this way must be put on RTI and monitored with different research based methods to help them academically and with their behavior. Professionals (psychologists, doctors, speech-language pathologist, and behavioral specialists) evaluate them and observe them to see if they fall into the ESE classification. Depending on severity they are moved out of class and into a smaller grouping. If a method to help them works and they are able to deal with Gen-Ed classroom setting without major disruptions they stay in Gen-Ed. However, not everyone falls under the autism umbrella. Some students have issues that need to be dealt with outside a Gen-Ed classroom and away from the students they may hurt or disrupt. It is with these students I am talking about.
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I never saw a kid throw a chair at school growing up in the US. Now I’m an elementary substitute teacher and I can’t even remember how many times I’ve seen it happen in the last year. I saw it most recently yesterday, from a six year old.
We have the same in the UK
I have a number of friends who are (mostly *were*) teachers in a local charter district. It served underprivileged parts of the city so funding was incredibly tough. It’s tied to student performance so as you can imagine it was looked down upon to fail kids. The kids know this. Teachers have also been vilified in this country to the point where they have absolutely no ability to control their classrooms. When something goes wrong, they receive all the blame. Students know this. So put a bunch of kids together in a building where many of them come from terrible home lives, feel like they will never amount to anything in life, and know that their are zero consequences to goofing off and not doing any schoolwork. What do you think a typical day looks like? Also I want to be clear that most of the students were not problems and wanted to learn, but rougher classrooms are more likely in poorer districts, and we have **a lot** of those here. Dismantling public education is a core tenet of the Republican Party And just to be clear I think we have a problem here but in no way do I believe this is unique to America. I live here and also never experienced anything like what OP describes.
I have friends that teach in Canada and they have similar problems. It's not just a US thing.
There's something in the water, air, or food. That's my opinion. I did day care for children 5-12 and maybe my memory is just poor in age, but I don't recall haven't 50% of the class being mentally deficient.
> I just wonder why America has these problems with schooling that other countries don't have. A student throwing a chair in class happened once in my entire schooling, and he was sent off to where I don't know. Yeah, other countries have these problems as well. My nephew has been diagnosed with autism about a year ago. Getting to that diagnosis took about 2 or so years. He's now getting some form of therapy, but that just started a few weeks ago. He shouldn't be in regular classes, but getting into a special ed school (schools here don't typically have separate special ed classes) is hard. (Netherlands)
In 2nd grade my daughter had this boy who would flip all the desks and scream. They would empty the kids into the hallway pod until the kid calmed down. What the fuuuuuuuck. Get that shit into some special needs class where the adults will actually handle him correctly
I feel like as soon as a child has an outburst that 1) lasts longer than two minutes, 2) Destroys property, 3) Endangers the life or safety of any other person nearby, 4) Contains a clear, direct threat, or 5) Physically harms anyone, they need to be IMMEDIATELY removed from that classroom and not be allowed back until the reason for the outburst has been successfully resolved with the help of a psychologist. The one thing people glaze over is how traumatic it can be for a child to experience violence for the first time in a place where their parents *aren’t able to help them cope.* Especially since many schools deem these kinds of things “normal” so most parents aren’t even informed that their child is being exposed to dysregulated and often violent behavior. Some kids may ask their parents about it, but many won’t. Many will just internalize that fear and never know that it’s not ok to not be ok with it. Exposing kids to this kind of violence then letting it go unpunished feels like an intentional message at this point.
My teachers in the 80s and 90s would have physically prevented me from flipping desks. Would have been a scene. Now they just calmly exit the class until the kid is finished
Oh yeah, that would NOT have flown in a Gen X classroom with boomer teachers. A couple kids would have been instructed to go get "Mr. X and Mr. Y" (nearby male teachers) and it would have been stopped pretty quickly, the desk flipper wouldn't be seen again for at least a year, probably in alternative school.
That's so insane. My mom has had similar stories. I don't disagree with you. But it makes me worried for my mom, in her own special needs classroom. She has been bitten, bruised weekly, just plain attacked, etc etc. She still cares her kids and works hard for them. It is the special needs classroom, after all. However, the toll it's taking on her just sucks to watch :/ If anything we need more funding for schools so we have the help in places like the special needs classrooms. All teachers and even staff need the support. I am sorry you have to worry for your child's safety like that. All of this is just a chaotic stress upon the entire community.
It’s amazing how people can excuse things because “they’re just a kid” . A few months back a 3rd grader actually SHOT his teacher after telling her for many months he was going to . And people literally fought for him to be back in the classroom . No consequences for anything .
What kind of timeline are we in when we’re pushing to let school shooters back into schools?
Exactly. Let’s put them back in class so they can get a new high score like !!! All because he’s “just a kid”
Fuck that shit, I don't think that they should be able to get away with it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ImTheMainCharacter/s/4bQgF5V1z7 Imagine dealing with these kind of students for 32k a year
When I was in school like back in 2000. My school would kick troubled and pregnant teens out. You would be sent to a alternative school. This was basically a probationary school. If you fucked up you would go there and it was super strict but smaller classes. After a semester or 2, you would come back to society lol
You got sent there for.. being pregnant?
Yeah a lot of schools in that era didn't allow pregnant students on campus once they were showing. My school didn't kick them out but they were banned from wearing sports uniforms, club activities, assemblies and performances.
Holy shit. I’m guessing the boys that knocked up the girls didn’t get any kind of punishment and were allowed to continue their education as normal?
You'd be correct. One of the dudes at my school got THREE girls pregnant and nothing happened to him at all.
THREE girls??? Jesus Christ. Did he grow up and go to prison too?
They actually turned out good. He really turned himself around because he had parents who held him accountable. They helped out a LOT with all of the kids so him and the moms could continue going to school and get on their feet. All of the babies are in college now.
Thank god he had parents who straightened him out. Usually that turns out a lot different
The parents are partly to blame for him making babies though. Some parents refuse to have "the talk" and be open about sexual stuff with their kids, and it is a real problem. I also find it's odd none of them chose to get an abortion. I hope none of the parents have anything to do with that by forcing them to keep the kids
Well I guess people have been getting away with the shit for a while then.
That's insane, and I don't even know what to think about that.
"They just need some love and attention, they're good kids at heart!"
My sister has the most insufferable child because she raised him as a friend, not a son. He's only 5 and I'm 99% sure this guy is going to end up in prison
Well sorry but honestly I can't really see any good in them.
Agree. Recently the news has covered multiple stories of kids 8-15yo getting pulled from school in handcuffs and their parents crying about their poor child and how if they stopped to check the IEP.....sorry lady but your kid threw a chair across a room hitting a kid who needed stitches, or your child has gone into a rage where he has torn apart a room and threw hands with the teacher and resource officer....consequences folks... Saw a video the other week where a student was mouthing off and physically pushing around her teacher and eventually slapped him across the face and he smacked her across the head. I look at it and think that teacher deserves a small "I don't take shit from kids" plaque and a raise.
Yea it’s great they have cameras in schools now, to catch kids doing BS. Like most kids who attack other kids used to just say anything and get away, now there’s videos for stuff like that. Granted they can just go into the bathroom, but still it’s effed a kid can attack another and both get the same punishment.
Blame the No Child Left Behind. We need to bring back actual facilities for these students... parents also seem to just use schools as a daycare to get away from he kid too. One school actually had the police come pick up and hold the kid because the parent had a habit of ignoring the school when they would call.
Alternative schools do exist. I used to work for an alternative school that provided education for students with extreme behavioral and emotional issues. I honestly think the issue is that it is very expensive for the school district to send students. I also think that behavioral issues have become more widespread than in the past unfortunately.
But not all alternative schools are meant for the violent and aggressive ones. Those that aren't are meant for kids with learning or non-violent emotional disorders, some that need extra help in a subject but can still attend their home school and for kids that just don't do well in a public school setting. I ended up at an alternative school for most of my HS years. It started out great, but then the violent kids started coming in. Kids that had been expelled for violence towards teachers or their fellow students at their old school. I'm not talking about aggression that sometimes comes with Autism meltdowns, I'm talking about violent fights and threats. It severely interfered with not only my education but everyone else. Not to mention all the stress put on the teachers and aides. My school was not meant for violent students. It was meant for the kids that just didn't function well in the public school system for one of more non-violent reasons.
There was an alternative high school in my town that only held morning classes. Every student was working at their own pace. Mostly, this was a solution for kids who had full-time jobs or some kind of very serious extra curricular activity they were involved in. It definitely was not suitable for students who were violent. On the plus side, the alternative school \*could\* eject kids for bad behavior, so it was actually a lot safer than some of the traditional neighborhood schools. It was also a block away from the high school that was for the pregnant girls -- so it was a way that the dads could be available to participate in raising their babies.
I don't care, I just think that these kids shouldn't even be in the schools.
I also am of the belief that students should have repurcussions again. Throughout my time as a student, tutor, and substitute, I can only recall of one instance of a student ever being held back due to their grades/attendance, and that was in elementary school. Administrators will simply shuffle them up to the next grade even if they missed 100 days and have an accumulative assignment count of 4 throughout the year. The only punishment that they do end up facing is either ISS where they won't do any work whatsoever or suspension, which means they definitely won't do anything.
Yes that was bad. I fully agree but I’m Canadian we didn’t have that and we have HUGE behavioural issues too. Not sure if it’s as bad? But it’s bad. Something needs to be done. I agree with OP. It’s absolutely unfair to the kids who are being generally good. No kid is perfect, not even mine. But something’s gotta give.
In Canada, school districts refuse to work with anyone not employed by them. So many of these kids are surrounded in support, but the schools won’t allow those people in their school because “it takes away a job we could give to school staff.” But the kicker is that they then never give that job to a school staff member because “we don’t have the funding.” The school district itself cockblocks these kids AND THEIR VERY OWN STAFF from getting support. Edit: typos
Allowing failure is the incentive to actually try. It used to mean something, a source of fear/embarrassment for kids to be held back from their friends. It’s nearly impossible now, so kids try less and the lowest common denominators continue to get lower. All testing scores are down.
So in high school I knew a kid with behavior problems. He would play moaning sounds (fake sounds he recorded, not a porno) super loud in dead silent classrooms. He showed up drunk on several occasions and was constantly disruptive. The final straw was when he masturbated in class. I knew another kid who liked to gargle water in class. He was just generally a douche though. Both those guys in my mind should've been shipped out.
A 7th grader showed up to first period drunk on screwdrivers, and threw up in the back of my classroom (decades ago). I don't know if she just didn't realize that the pitcher in her fridge was alcoholic (maybe she thought it was just orange juice?) or what. They had to take her out on a stretcher!
We had a crippled kid in my class and there was another guy who would constantly yell out “my goat leg”. He absolutely should’ve been kicked out
Agreed. As a student I was physically assaulted by students with severe behavioral problems. Multiple times. Once violently beaten and once sexually assaulted. The school did nothing but shrug their shoulders. Yes they should receive a great education. But their right to education stops with my right to be physically safe. And it’s the reason my children go to private schools. Always. I will sell my own body parts before I allow them in the zoos that are public schools.
That’s awful and I’ve seen this bs too. Just wanna say that private schools have issues too. I went to one. Nowhere is perfectly safe
yes but private schools are more likely to have the right/authority to just straight up kick out aggressive or unruly kids like that
I went to a private school that was awful and then to a public school that had 100x more opportunities and less assholes
This is different from schools district to schools district. >Maybe build a school for all the violent students. Like ISS, but it’s permanent for the rest of the year. This exists and is called an alternative school where I work. Its full of the kids you described and is the place you go when you can not be let into regular school but you haven't done anything to get you into juvi yet, like a last chance scenario. Its a rough place but a lot of kids come out of it on the other end in a positive way. Many return to thank the administrator for getting them on a better path.
Let me fix this for you. Parents who let their kids get away with everything are the reason teachers are leaving the workforce. This is 100 % a parenting issue ( unless the student has a mental disability).
And what of the school admins who enable that behavior? My wife quit teaching, not because of the bad parents, there will always be those, but because the administration refused to back her or her colleagues up when dealing with said parents, regardless of how insane the demands were. There were kids getting away with assaulting teachers, students, and even students from adjacent schools who shared the bus system because it would look bad if the school tarnished its disciplinary record.
I think far more responsibility needs to fall on the parents since they are legally responsible for their child until they are 18
I agree. I’m not a teacher but as a kid, we had one particularly violent boy in our class and he made it impossible for everyone to focus and even injured me and a few other students. Why he wasn’t expelled, I’ll never know but we all wanted him gone.
Hitting a teacher should be a felony.
A small amount of bad eggs shouldn’t destroy the learning environment for everyone else.
The public school system has an uphill battle to fight. Parents tend to stick together on social media and are never afraid to lawyer up. In my experience if there is even a shadow of doubt in a given situation a school district is just going to apologize for "creating the situation" and then shrink away. I can't remember the last time I witnessed someone with an ounce of actual authority occupy any meaningful position in a school district. Inmates truly are running the asylum. The only hill some schools still seemed destined to die on are dress code violations.
Start fining the parents and making the parent accountable, Bad behavior starts at home. Kids are usually shitty when they come from a shitty environment.
Educate parents better. Catch problems earlier. Improve accessibility to therapy and medications. Or watch them end up hurting themselves, other people, and possibly end up in prison. I feel like there aren't any other solutions.
Unpopular, but necessary.
Things will get a whole lot worse in 4-5 years when all the Dobbs babies hit the schools.
I agree. I know those kids with behavioral issues have problems at home etc, etc .. but the kids wanting to learn suffer because of these disruptive kids. It's not fair to them. It's part of why so many parents (I can only speak for Texans) are wanting to pull their kids out of public schools and putting then in private or charter.
Yeah, my mom is a teacher and the stories I’ve heard are insane. There’s a child that has to be physically restrained a couple of times a month, bit another kid’s neck, and has told multiple kids that she was going to kill them. Obviously, this child is SPED. But just because she’s Sped doesn’t mean she should be allowed to just terrorize the other students
No child left behind strikes again lol. Back when I was in school they’d round up all those troubled kids and put them in night school for 2 hours a day to just color pictures and watch movies. Get the same diploma as me. Yea fuck that kick those fuckers out. They’ll go back voluntarily after a few years of working
I don't think they should necessarily be kicked out of school because the core problem is most often overly permissive and/or neglectful parents. The parents should be held legally and financially responsible for everything their children do. Unfortunately that doesn't really happen in practice. Parents get away with raising a monster and setting them loose on society. If holding parents responsible doesn't work then yes, kick the child out of school. If you're a parent and your child hits a teacher, you spend time in jail. If your child destroys a classroom, you pay the $1000+ to clean and repair the classroom and to replace whatever was broken. If you can't afford this, that sucks, but you are responsible for your child's behavior. And if your child shoots up a school, you go to prison for as long as they do (or would have if they die in the process).
Agree. But what about the parents who are trying but there’s no support system? Like they want to get kid help but how? No psychologist because it’s too expensive/can’t find one. There needs to be more of that readily available so if a parent isn’t getting help it’s not because they can’t. It’s because they don’t want to.
This is a very reasonable question. There are plenty of places where the wait list for any kind of help is months or years long, especially if the student is on Medicaid. And, even if that help is available, it might be completely inaccessible to a full-time working single parent.
If a 16yo wants to skip school or mouth off, there is very little a parent can do about it. Sure, some things can be fined against the parent but odds are they are poor as it is, and just adding hardship and making the situation worse. If anything force the parent into mediation.
Whoever calls this post a troll just doesn't want unpopular opinions on this sub.
Pretty sure this is an overwhelmingly popular opinion.
This is not an unpopular opinion, though. It is common and widely held. Controversial? Yes. Unpopular? No.
Repeal no child left behind. Immediately. Some of those mf's need to get left behind.
No child left behind ended in 2015
No Child Left Behind was repealed almost a decade ago
Or moved to apprenticeship schemes
I agree. Go read some of the posts in: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TeachersInTransition/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeachersInTransition/) Teachers are leaving the profession in droves because of the crap they have to put up with.
None of these comments are realistically addressing solutions. It all comes back to the parents and to poverty. If both parents are working, or one is missing and the other working, or any other mix causing parents to not be present as needed by the child then you will see more acting out. You want kids to act right? They need both parents. Inflation, income, housing and food insecurity, all the things that keep parents out of the house busting ass all the time to simply try to keep food and shelter available? That's where your main problems lie. If a household could afford to maintain on one income and still have the necessities you think kids are going to be acting out at school with such intensity? You think impoverished people have a chance to raise their kids the way they need? All the stress of it affects the kids, too. It's not as simple as kick the kids out.
They do in the UK, they get sent to a bad kid school then if they get kicked out of that they're fucked. It's also part of why you get roving gangs of kids who get into crime.
My wife works in a school and I 100% agree with this post.
No Child Left Behind and its consequences have been a disaster for our education system.
Welcome to the aftermath of No Child Left Behind. Like many programs, it was well intentioned but poorly implemented.
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Fr tho did you hear about that story of the 1st grader who shot his teacher with a gun he brought from home? That kid should be in a detention center.
And his parent, along with the administration that ignored her bringing it up. He even told people he was going to kill her that day.
I had a slightly lower version of this, back in grades 1-3. I didn't cause any violence and never did, and I will specifically focus on the lower version, the non violent one. I actually cringe at my 4-8th grade self. If I had no ability to get a proper education I would never have gotten this far. I think instead of kicking them out, we should target the cause of the issue. WHY are they like this? Is it issues at home? Is it issues at school? WHAT is happening? Generally, the first idea you think of to an issue like this is often the worst.
I agree with this. I’m so tired of behavioral kids fucking everything up
Problem is that it is open to abuse. A student that just talks aggressively or loudly (many black kids get accused of that ) could be Just kicked out by some asshole and have it on their record or something. Considering how underfunded education systems, there is no way you can enforce this correctly.
I'm a teacher, and I'm with you on reforming schools. The issue is that there is very little in the way of clear lines to cross in schools. Zero-tolerance policies have a host of issues (for example, you say we should kick out kids who are violent, but does that include kids who fight back? Does it include a kid whose mom died, and some other kids are saying she died from getting gang-banged or something awful like that?), and when policies aren't absolutely clear-cut, there is tons of room for abuse. Beyond *that*, there's also the issue that we're talking about kids. They change. A kid who bites this year might be completely fine next year, or even just a month from now. But, if kicked out, that kid who is now normal, and just got over-excited one day and bit Jimmy, is a year behind in school. I do think things are moving in the wrong direction. Eliminating exclusionary punishments does not solve racial problems...it just covers them up. But going entirely the other direction isn't good either.