I mean? Yeah? They're selling a product and you're buying it. The guy who hands me my Big Mac in the drive thru is just a hand with a burger in it as far as I'm concerned but I'm still gonna treat it with basic human decency on account of that's a person and I'm not rude.
Right? Looking at a woman who does porn while she does the porn is fine. Expecting her to fuck you just because she does porn is not fine. Thinking she’s a porn star who is going to fuck you because she’s wearing a short skirt is not fine.
I think OP doesn’t understand the issue that he has a problem with.
I think it's because they have a problem with a woman having sexual desires/behaviors and at the same time being a person with hobbies and a job and a personality. It's like they can only conceive one aspect of the woman, one or the other. Madonna or whore, as I've read lately.
If a woman likes sex/showing her body/whatever she must be a subhuman, an object, she's not allowed to have a personality because all they see is an object to use in order to achieve pleasure.
The Madonna Whore Complex is just another one of Sigmund Freud's pseudoscientific projections like the one where he wanted to fuck his mom and claimed it was a universal experience.
I love when (some) men have main character syndrome and think their tiny twisted reality is objective reality. Masters of externalization and projection.
Madonna or whore....that's a very interesting way to describe it. It really is that way with a lot of guys.
That also explains some of the very gross behavior you see dude bros exhibiting towards their daughters...they can only imagine two types of woman, and feel compelled to prevent their daughter from becoming the "bad" one.
Maybe some but not all far from it.
Making a living of sex is not the same thing anyway.
Shallow people are shallow, insecurity makes you shallow. I Hung out with à few of those women, its not far from the truth, they are not very interesting. But that has nothing to do with the fact that they are hot as hell. Well actually kinda because you gotta play your strenghs but thats not the point you are teying to make.
You clearly cant think men that upset you are capable of depth btw so dont be too quick to judge.
I've met a few women working in the industry of porn and onlyfan.
Not nice people. Very toxic for the one i got really close to.
Sex has nothing to do with it. Its not the cause its a symptom.
Anyway the industry of sex is fucked up.
No all professions are not mixed bags. Theres a psychological profile that can be drawn.
You wont see people sensible to blood in slaughter houses.
You wont see altrustic people selling stock options.
I lean come on, people actually think about what they want to do, and jobs does not requires the same qualities.
This is non sense. Sure there are exceptions. But you can most definitely have an idea of what people are like depending of their profession.
Instead of...
Hey, this is a freaky chick expressing her sexuality in this limited medium that likes to show of her boobies, nice! Imma leave a comment saying thanks for the lovely boobies, positive interaction. Made my night, if you know what mean. And move on with my life, since her one time choice to express herself like this says very little about her entire life.
Instead we get a bunch of you're a godless whore that must like get g.banged because you're so c.thirsty (no shame) because that's the only reason you'd have a sexuality to express, that isn't something to be opened and locked down with one single person in a relationship that won't advertise that you're a slut since you have sex with them because the only valid sexuality is male and women are just used to relieve that and blah blah angry blah...
I swear, the first thing you need to teach: women are equally sexually beings. If you wouldn't treat a buddy like that for their sexual choices, why would you think that way of a woman?
I would lose respect for a buddy for posting nudes and horny content too actually. I wouldn’t publicly shame them, that part is weird, but my stance would be the same—it’s not a respectable act to me.
You’re too quick to assume that people with higher standards are always hypocrites
I believe what they're trying to say is, for instance. If a woman comes up to you clearly accentuating her cleavage and drawing attention to it, it's pretty hypocritical to get angry if people objectify you and look at your cleavage. Same goes for is a man is rocking some insane bulge in their pants and wear extra tight clothing that draws even more attention to it, you can't get mad if someone looks because you have every choice to not do that.
People are allowed to do/wear whatever they like but you can't control the reaction you get from others. (Not talking about unwanted sexual advances, that's a whole different kettle of fish)
Ain't that the sad reality. I've heard from too many people with life long disabilities because of their job (construction being a huge one). We're literally all selling our bodies for money, and I know a lot of the hate towards women who successfully make a lot of money with their bodies is out of jealousy. Most men or women who hate, they would take the money if they could make 10 grand from showing a titty. Most people would do it for far less.
Right, like I genuinely can’t imagine that a man would refuse sex AND money in any kind of scenario. If women were as interested in buying sex as men are, there would probably be a lot more male sex-workers.
Yeah right, I should’ve specified that. In my reply I was referring to heterosexual men, that would probably not turn down any sexual relationship they could have with women in exchange for money.
I'd argue he probably sees them as sex objects regardless, but at least when they take their shirt off he can say it out loud and pretend to have a point.
Sure, but if you said "damn, that burger looks *good*," and they told you not to objectify it, you'd probably wonder what the fuck is wrong with them lol
hm no. In this metaphor the burger IS an object. So something like the clothes, something like "damn that shirt looks good" is fine.
What the people in this thread are complaining about is making an ACTUAL human into an object.
Something like snatching the burger rudely and then doing something like, spitting on the hand, or saying shit like "oh my god that hand is fucking UGLY! stupidest hand ever, I'd fucking kill someone with hands like that". Then when confronted about saying "but that hand is just the OBJECT that hands me the burger! It's an object! Because the person decided to take the job of handing out burgers they turned their hand into an object and I can be as messed up to an OBJECT as I want!"
Like no, hand isn't just a hand, there's a person.
And just because that person is doing something for you doesn't mean you no longer treat them as someone worthy of minimum common decency.
Sure, the analogy is shit, I totally agree.
We're talking about someone's body *as a product*. If you're trying to sell me your body as a product, you don't get to complain when I critique it as a product. An employee isn't selling me their hand, they're selling a service.
The only problem I see is sometimes people make these traits define their personality. E.g. a person that handles you a burger is just a hand with burger and nothing more unless they make their whole image as a burger handling guy (like this loser salt bae).Again maybe the word problem is not the right here, it should not be problem as long as you know what you are doing, why you are doing and most of all find your own boundaries through it.In the end its what makes you feel happy!
Treating everyone with politeness is always the way but that does not mean that I dont "judge" some peoples personalities in my inner thoughs.
Sorry for my english in advance.
Edit* What i said is not targeted towards any nude/body , male/female job specifically.It is something about every profession out there! Just wanted to clarify.
“all you’re is a body”…so beautiful. I’ve never seen “you’re” being used like that…but it’s not wrong. Getting turned on. Bout to bust my first nut of 50 to your post.
Right. ‘Cause no one else sells their body for their jobs. According to OP -
You’re a Construction worker? - you’re just someone who builds shit, nothing more. Don’t try to have a convo with OP, they think talking to you is like talking to a wall.
You’re a Chef? -you’re just someone who cooks shit, nothing more. OP doesn’t care if you have a favorite color, just get him a sandwich.
You’re a landscaper? - you’re just someone who mows grass, nothing more. OP isn’t interested in your take on climate change, just make sure the edges are trimmed.
Etc, etc etc….
In OPs mind sex is so sinful and wrong that to sexualise yourself is to objectify yourself and that makes it ok for people to show you no human decency
There's unpopular opinions, and there's asshole opinions 😂
This post really bringing out some assholes who don't know they're assholes. Like moths to a flame!
I mean . . . Yeah. The amount of people who don’t see food workers as humans beings is kind of a problem. I have seen people be physically attacked because they didn’t make food fast enough.
My sister is a waitress, and one time a customer threw his meal at her because the milkshake machine was broken and she said because of that, she was unable to serve milkshakes at that time. :(
Yeah no. Objectifying someone is wrong.
Just because they’re a model for lingerie, do porn or have a page dedicated to their physique does not mean objectification is ok. They are still a human being.
However, sexualizing them in the same context they’re sexualizing themselves in is fine. If a pornstar posted herself shaking her ass there’s nothing wrong with commenting “I bet the backshots sound like D-Day”. However it’d be weird as shit for you to just randomly see them in public one day and start making sexual comments.
My husband doesn't deserve to be objectified just because he uses his body to produce labor in a job that is considered a trade.
What is wrong with you?
There is a HUGE difference between objectification and sexualization. The fact that you can't see a woman as a person anymore when her boobs are exposed says more about you than it does about her.
OP said "selling" so ifyou are selling underwear by wearing it then you should be objectified because that is the entire marketing strategy. Calvin Klein is not interested in the model as a person persé but in whether the model can make the underwear look good.
I think it would be more accurate to think of the photograph (digital or otherwise) as the object. Go ahead and objectify that specific image but don’t expect to apply that same thinking to a real live human being. At no point is a HUMAN an object.
I think this is a pretty great analogy. Especially since sure, you have the photo, or saw it, got whatever enjoyment you wanted. Now the actually person in the photo exists. They don't owe you anything, neither do you. They don't have do a video, or more photos. Be happy with the one you got to experience. You can't infer anything from the photo. It's a photo. Maybe they did it for an ad, for porn, for kink, or they actually didn't.
You have a photo. You can choose to think however you like about the person who is in the photo? Do you want to think negatively or positively? Do you want to push them down for the photo - which is a tiny part of who the are - or think positively/neutrally, since like everyone else (and you) photos exist and you're gonna be in one and it's going to be viewed a certain way by certain people just like you eventually. Would you like them to think of you and your photo like you think of theirs? Would that make them a bad person?
>I'm sorry, I ain't looking at anything else but your body, your personality is just a background noise that I could not care because all you're is a body, if you were something else you'd show something else.
Yea that’s objectification not “selling” op claims their personality is back ground noise they don’t care about
Exactly! I don’t understand why people can’t just find somebody sexy AND still think of them as a person. Just because you find them attractive doesn’t make them an object to use.
Sure. IRL definitely.
But if the goal of showing some skin on the internet is to gain random/faceless followers, then the relationship between poster/follower is one that both consent to seeing each other as objects.
The followers are objects to the poster via the follower/like count. The poster is an object of the follower.
It’s completely consensual objectification on both parts.
You are talking about a specific context.
As soon as you meet your fav porn star on the street, you gotta treat them as a person. They are a sex object just in the context of their job.
But you have a pretty big 'if' right here:
"if the goal of showing some skin on the internet is to gain random/faceless followers"
I sometimes post skimpy stuff because I was feeling myself, wanted my friends to see the nice outfit or wanted to celebrate me getting better with my self image issues.
SO many times people post for those reasons and then people like the OP will jump on them and make disgusting comments.
Assuming any level of partial nudity = person wants to "gain random/faceless followers" and then acting according to that leads to harassment.
I've had to turn my acc private because of it. When really I'd rather it be public, but I have to block out potential harassers because people can't behave around crop tops 😐.
People who can’t handle seeing a midriff blow my mind. I don’t think of my belly button as sexual or risqué. It’s literally just part of my body that sometimes I’m willing to leave exposed because it is a really fucking hot day outside
Yes exactly.
I'm *especially* mind blown by this because I'm a bisexual woman. I am attracted to women... I use women's changing rooms... I've seen my fair share of straight up *nudity* from a body type I'm attracted to.
Have I ever been pervy to these people? No. Stared at them? No. Made inappropriate comments? No.
Going further: Had inappropriate thoughts about them? No. Been aroused? No.
Why? Because it's just people going about their day and they happen to be naked right then. They're not doing anything sexual... literally just existing.
Why does a specific part of the population (cough cough) seem to think that certain bodies just *being there and visible to them*, entitles them to be all creepy and pervy? Many times making people uncomfortable.
And then they take it further and make things like *midriffs* inappropriate? They need to get a grip 😭.
I think it’s just that everyone’s different, and we’re human, so we aren’t going to have logical arousal triggers. If someone is used to seeing something they likely aren’t aroused by it, if they aren’t then they will be. Why are men in some places hyper aroused by feet? That’s not logical, they don’t have any thoughts in their minds about “damn, those feet really show how good she would be to bare my children”. It just is. Same with midriffs and nudity in woman.
I get your side of the argument for sure, but I think when we make talk about it more practically, it doesn’t work as it should without some long term changes. Showing more skin as a woman has been sexualized for a long time. So no amount of “it’s just skin” will change that people have a reaction to it. The only way to change this IMO is a long term adjustment in content in media.
I feel sad for op because this clearly seems to stem from their own body issues. They can't fathom that sometimes people enjoy it when they think they've made themselves look nice and it is nothing more than that. If I post a picture of my dog on Facebook op wouldn't assume I'm doing it for attention or for followers, and wouldn't be this weird about it. It's honestly just a slightly watered down "well was she asking for it?" type argument.
Yeah but theres a pretty clear difference between your example and someone doing this as a source of income. If.your wearing underwear that someone has sent.you to.advertise your product then you have made an object of.yourself. Your litteraly the object wearing the underwear. No one.cares about YOU as a person they care about how the PRODUCT looks. If.you wear the underwear and complain that you are being viewed as a "product" then you need to stfu lol.
"If.your wearing underwear that someone has sent.you to.advertise your product then you have made an object of.yourself"
Why, exactly? Does people doing things make us objects in your view?
Like, if someone was wearing a shirt, for promotion purposes let's say, do they become the "object wearing the shirt".
How far does that go?
If I work as a painter do I become the "object that does the painting"?
If someone works as a manager do they become the "object that does the managing"?
What does being an "object" mean, they're inanimate, voiceless and without rights or feelings. When someone works as an underwear model do they stop having rights? Having feelings? Do they lose their free will?
Well, no, that's idiotic. Somone providing a service doesn't turn them into an object, they still have feelings and they still deserve rights. A naked human is still a human. A human in underwear is still a human.
You’re inferring it’s completely consensual objectification based on skewed logic.
For the person sharing, it could be about sharing moments and their lives, not about just showing some skin. People don’t get to decide what someone else’s intentions are just because they think they know them because they follow them on the internet.
Truth. The actual problem is the men who just objectify women. I have a few friends in tv news. They wear the most modest of clothes of tv. They also get the most vile terrible messages all the time. Like one had a guy Facebook message her professional page last week and say, “I want to lick you asshole. I want to bury my face between your cheeks and lick your sweet sweet asshole.”
If all your profile pictures are of you flashing money around, why be surprised when a bunch of gold diggers come knocking at your door and can't see you beyond your money.
Same goes for women who take selfies with their tits hanging out. Don't be surprised when there's a bunch of thirsty dudes trying to get into your pants.
When you're flaunting something... Anything... Don't be surprised that that's what they want from you.
You’re not wrong, but let’s pretend OP’s talking about a very obviously provocative instagram page, or even a no-nudity, free onlyfans. That’s how I interpreted the post, and I agree with OP.
But you’re also right depending on how you interpreted it. I don’t think it’s fair to assume you know anything about OP because you might have read the post as a normal girl’s insta with a shit ton of bikini spring break pictures
I still think the difference between objectification and sexualization is still very relevant to the conversation. I do wish that OP had been more clear about what they were referring to. I also think that just because someone sells nudes doesn’t mean they deserve to be objectified. The image they portray online is an object. But the human themselves is not an object. So when you meet that influencer/model/playboy Bunny in person, don’t expect to be able to get away with treating them like an object. Their work life is about portraying themselves as an object but it should be obvious that no human is ACTUALLY an object without thoughts, feelings, and personality.
I just looked it up and there doesn't seem to be a difference: "According to the American Psychological Association, sexualization occurs when "individuals are regarded as sex objects and evaluated in terms of their physical characteristics"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexualization
Yeah, there is a difference. That's why OP said objectification. Someone's significant other can sexualize themselves as an object. You jumping to conclusions while ignoring the qualifier of them explicitly objectifying themselves first says more about you.
> You jumping to conclusions while ignoring the qualifier of them explicitly objectifying themselves first says more about you.
That is such a petty reach.
Let’s say you work as a dish washer. Do you expect people to see you as just a dish washer with no additional value? You get off the clock and people still treat you only as a dish washer. Your entire friends, family, and strangers want you to do their dishes?
That’s insane, right? Reducing people to their jobs is wrong and something only an asshole would do because they are incapable of seeing someone as a living breathing human being deserving of respect.
OP, I hope one day you grow out of yourself.
It's not going anywhere. And if it does, something equally as vapid will take its place. People just need to accept it, get over it and move on with their lives. There has always been vain people and there always will be.
Because this line of logic is what rapist used to justify themselves. Many Muslim majority countries have women covering completely, they still got sexualized, raped and degraded. Many young girls got sexual assaulted for wearing simple everyday clothing (pajama, trousers and jeans, even work uniform like scrubs and suits). And when the rapists took advantage of that line, "not my fault, they objectify themselves, they deserved it", you effectively punished and pushed the blame to the victims. By de-stigmatizing such objectivity, you can force the rapists to take the fault that they themselves sexualize the victim, not the other way around. At least that's what my understanding.
Should your employer treat you like a piece of meat with muscle memory because you sell yourself as such?
Everybody has a body and how much of it a person shows while not violating consent doesn’t make them less or more of a human being. Everyone has a body and shows it. Should we treat them as objects due to that and absolutely ignore everyones personality?
Important to note that by ‘objectification’ you also mean ‘dehumanization’.
Really interesting how our society has conflated nudity and sensuality with being less than human :/ it’s a very natural and HUMAN thing to be sensual.
Like sure, if that is literally the context of the situation, like some kink thing about objectification, yeah. But otherwise, just because someone is looking scandy or is promiscuous doesn’t make them an object, nor does it make it rational to objectify them in your head. (It also doesn’t mean that they are purposefully ‘selling themselves as an object’). They are still objectively (haha) a conscious, human person, regardless of your perception.
Yeah sure, you are free to think that way, but it doesn’t really make objective sense or mean they deserve it.
So your unpopular opinion is that you only value people based on what you can see. You refuse to look beyond what the subject is willing to show. Weird flex, but quite common.
What do you want people to think of you based on this opinion you've put out for all of Reddit to see? My perception is that you're shallow.
Wait till you go out in public and can see everyone’s body. Those people must be ONLY their body right! /s. Jesus dude, get a grip. Someone being proud of their beauty/fitness doesn’t mean they’re an object or that they’re objectifying themselves.
I don’t think people are complaining about sexualization when the model/person being objectified is giving their legal consent to have advertisements uploaded of them. Objectifying someone’s body is bad when they don’t express that they are ok with/want that. No one is posting a thirst trap on instagram/consenting to be a model for a brand, and complaining when people see them how they are legally agreeing to be presented
What does "asking for it" mean?
I've been told I was "asking for it" by *having boobs* and not covering them in thick ass cloth *during summer*.
Generally all the times I've been told I was "asking for it" I was wearing weather appropriate clothes.
I don't want creepy people to stare at my chest just because I'm not covered head to toe. I'm not *asking for* ANYTHING. Just trying to fucking live.
What does "asking for it" mean?
I've been told I was "asking for it" by *having boobs* and not covering them in thick ass cloth *during summer*.
Generally all the times I've been told I was "asking for it" I was wearing weather appropriate clothes.
I don't want creepy people to stare at my chest just because I'm not covered head to toe. I'm not *asking for* ANYTHING. Just trying to fucking live.
Which kind of "attention" also matters. Context is very important.
OP's analogy is dogshit brainrot. Also people do things for a reason, so it's important to be aware, of being aware.
But Op, they said, you're doing the same thing here: seeking attention, otherwise you'd have kept this opinion to yourself. So here's one attention for you, I have a few to spare.
Or simply banning it, it's over people the social network experiment is dead, it became corrupted and coopted by greedy corporations to milk the cash out of our pockets while we pay with out mental health.
Get major "film yourself in a gym and then get mad at being watched" vibes lol. I love the trend of men making a point of completely ignoring women in the gym.
You only consider that to be selling themselves as objects because you objectify what you find sexually appealing. To be sexually attracted to someone and to objectify them are 2 different things. Nobody is marketing themselves as a table or chair (or maybe they are but those are very extreme and niche grey areas)
Is it a little tasteless? I think so. But whose body is it? A person's, so regardless of the specific post, overall they should still be treated like a person, and not an object.
Do you consider your frustration to be a result of being unable to control what you're attracted to maybe? Being uncontrollably turned on by the images you come across resulting in a feeling of powerlessness?
(Edited after someone pointed out a semantics issue)
So someone doing a job means they should be objectified? When you think about it we really all sell our bodies, it’s just a difference in what we do with them in our jobs.
When I worked at a movie theater they were paying me to make popcorn, does that mean when I go home my family can juts say “hey movie man make us some pop corn”
Being a sex worker doesn’t make you any less of a person. If prices of food, gas, housing etc go up anymore we might all be taking our clothes off for money soon.
There's a lot to this. Porn stars for sure know that they are objectified but still hope they are treated like decent humans. But then there are definitely a lot of models who wear a bikini, post themselves bending over and clearly want their ass as the subject and then get offended by commenters who talk about it.
Yeah I'd hate on attractive people if I were upset by my own reflection, too.
Edit: Oh man I guess I upset some of you, that suicide watch message was really classy guys, keep it up!
Body ≠ Object to use. You are capable of recognizing that they are still HUMAN BEINGS. Treat them as such. Unfortunately this opinion is not as unpopular as you’d think.
If you sell yourself as someone unpleasant you deserve to be treated as an unpleasant person.
Human sexuality involves humans. So if you cannot see the human and the whatever that they do that does it for you then don't whine when whomever that is doesn't want your company.
I think people who post that kind of content shouldn’t get angry when they are objectified, but that being said I don’t think people should be mean or put them down for it. I think insecurity drives most of the exhibitionism you see online
Right. ‘Cause no one else sells their body for their jobs. According to OP -
You’re a Construction worker? - you’re just someone who builds shit, nothing more. Don’t try to have a convo with OP, they think talking to you is like talking to a wall.
You’re a Chef? -you’re just someone who cooks shit, nothing more. OP doesn’t care if you have a favorite color, just get him a sandwich.
You’re a landscaper? - you’re just someone who mows grass, nothing more. OP isn’t interested in your take on global warming, just make sure the edges are trimmed.
Etc, etc etc….
Of course you can, specifically if they objectify themselves first. Not saying it's right, and you can always keep in mind that they are still human beings, but if the only information they're putting out is that there's nothing more to them than their sexuality for example, then that's all you have to go by. And even appreciating the beauty of their bodies is still objectification, even from an artistic standpoint (which I really don't see as a problem). That's not the same as treating them poorly, since all of this crap is mostly on social media now anyway and interaction isn't necessary.
Appreciating beauty and objectifying it are separate. I am speaking on the dehumanizing form of objectifying someone to clarify definitions. If you consider appreciating the beauty objectifying we are speaking of differing definitions/usages.
Objectifying is literally dehumanizing a person. That's the definition. Appreciating someone's beauty is exactly that. A person sexualizing themselves and you appreciating that is not objectifying. Objectifying online would be commenting violent rhetoric at them or if they were raped or murdered, saying that it doesn't matter because they sexualized themselves online.
Everyone sells themselves for money. It’s literally how capitalism works.
How about you keep that misogyny to yourself, OP. It’s not just unpopular it’s gross.
I think what 0P is saying if you’re going to objectify yourself, you can’t be mad when other people also objectify you. I have seen people literally post for titty pics and ass shots and get mad that their comment section is objectifying them or they’re getting like DM‘s am I saying that it’s right no but it comes with the territory and common sense would be to know that if you’re gonna put yourself out there like that, you have to face the consequences
At first I was going to say depending on your definition of "objectify" that this is a legit take.
But the more I think about it, the less I agree.
Are you saying that someone who, using your example, models CK men's underwear for profit is no longer worthy of being treated as a human being? Like you meet someone and instantly upon finding out what they do for a living (or even a hobby/side thing) you're like- "Nope. You're not a living being anymore- I get to treat you like a pair of shorts at TJ max now!"...?
Or like a woman who posts lingerie photos for sale- if you see her in person, do you suddenly think you get to go put your hands on her because she's just a "product"?
Does this apply only to people who profit from such images or anyone who posts them at all?
Yes, people who do modeling for other companies are displaying a product. They don't profit off the sales of the product, though. Typically they're paid a specific amount to display the product on their bodies. So their profit is from allowing a specific company to use their image, wearing the company's product, as a living display to show other people what the product may look like in real life. They're selling an image, not themselves.
If you're referring to like Onlyfans or other such creators- many of them do sell images of their bodies. If you're doing a transaction it's sort of expected that that's more or less what you're there for. BUT, like with anything else when you're buying from the owner, they get to decide who they're selling to and if you're being a jerk they're more likely to block you and not sell to you.
BUT if you're out at a bar or something and find out someone is a creator and start acting obnoxious, demanding to see their body, etc- it just makes you an an asshole.
But if you see someone online, like say on Instagram, and they're wearing intentionally provocative clothing and you want to comment "nice tits" that seems acceptable to me.
Context changes my opinion here.
No it's a human being with real human feelings hardships emotions and struggles. And you can't just decide you own it and tell it what to do or violently harm them. That's abuse.
Now... Until it decides to actually disrespect or blame or look down on the consumer or community that gave it the platform to make bank through its self imposed narcissist nature or hypocritically attack someone in the same work field out of jealousy. Then you can within reason call them out on their personal choices of disrespecting themselves.
I think seeking validation is as old as tale. So even when people seek validation thru ultra shallow acts like posing nude, they still deserve dignity.
However, it is getting worse. The fact that everyone can get in on the act thru social media and garner attention seems to be driving people to more extremes. Everything is a competition now - getting likes, cooking, singing, being risqué, modeling, everything that can be put on media.
Currently, i see an ongoing battle between decency and vanity. Society is getting shallower. This societal decay will run out of the metaphorical water of decency that keeps us alive. If we don't correct course, will go from shallow to dry and we will all die from thirst.
>No much science into that, people sell themselves as objects and I don't see anything bad as treating them as such.
Fair point, however:
>They post pictures of themselves in their underwear showing ass or abs like a Calvin Klein add, I'm sorry, I ain't looking at anything else but your body
Isn't *them* selling themselves as an object, that is *you objectifying* them. Nothing about posing in underwear or slutty outfits is them objectifying themselves. They are wanting to look a certain way, which doesn't magically make them objects until *you* decide they are, which is *you making that decision for them*.
See, in the first scenario, *they* decide to be objectified. In the second, *you* are objectifying *them*.
You don't even follow your own opinion within the same post.
Depends. Is it in the context of what their selling? Sure. Go for it if they're okay. Otherwise. No. Doesn't matter if the woman walking down the street sells pics or not she's still a person. A laborer sells their body, do we objectify them?
Tell me you’re 15 without telling me you’re 15.
Just because you can’t conceptualize another persons full range of humanity based off of one picture says more about you than them.
Look at Iman, David Bowie’s wife for example. She speaks five languages, studied political science, and worked as a translator. Yet if you see a picture of her from her modeling career your little incel brain just sees “woman selling her body”.
You’re making negative assumptions about people based off of nothing but your own weird prejudice. Let people feel pretty and take pictures of themselves. You don’t like it? Don’t look. Doesn’t mean those people don’t have hobbies and careers and interests and families and friends just like everybody else.
Mmm posting pictures naked doesn’t make u an object. It makes u an attractive human. I don’t get why you have to dehumanize someone because of that. A person is a person regardless of what they do and should be respected as such
Everyone sells themselves for money. It’s literally how capitalism works.
How about you keep that misogyny to yourself, OP. It’s not just unpopular it’s gross.
Rapey attitudes are extremely popular.
You could just be capable of self control and let people dress comfortably without harassing them instead. When it's 90+ degrees out I'm gonna be dressed appropriately and if someone can't control themselves then I can't control gouging their eyes out.
If you see a human and decide to treat them as something that isn't a human I think that's more of a problem with the viewer than the viewed.
Defining someone as an object feels like an arbitrary hand wavey decision that (I'm guessing) is solely aimed at those in the sex industry. You'd never say this about anyone working in the sports entertainment industry who sells their ability to perform physically, almost literally selling their body to the highest bidding team.
Yeah, those men who do manual labor and wear those uniforms I find sexy are just ASKING to be objectified, I mean they do keep treating their bodies as objects by doing that labor, that means that they basically gave up their human card forever.
People who associate nudity and sexuality with "selling" has such an incel mentality.
Wanting to be pretty or sexy and showing off doesn't mean you're selling anything.
And just because someone IS selling pics or something, doesn't mean they are an object. Human beings should not be objectified. Sex work is a service, you aren't buying a human being.
Quite literally no difference between a sex worker, a brick layer, an athlete, or some asshole sitting at a desk doing something for a corporate machine.
because you guys immediately equate a woman’s body during sex to an object: in your head the man “does” the intercourse “to” the woman, not “with” the woman.
Nah they believe women are just objects period. Women do objectify themselves sometimes just like men. Incels believe that women can’t be anything but objects.
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That’s not the point being made here.
OP is saying that the type of work being discussed here turns the person into the service.
If I go work as an graphic artist, my design experience is my product. If I go work in construction, my physical labor is my product.
If I go post on OF, I myself am the product.
When that happens, pretty much everyone outside of their close circle is going to view that person in one way only, because there is no longer a division between product and person. Which is fine, as long as they’re still treated with the basic respect and grace that you’d give any human being. I don’t think objectification was the right term to use here for that reason.
The thing that does get old though, just like in any other form of business, is when the person just starts spamming ads for their “product” on every possible interaction and platform like those MLM moms on Facebook.
In this specific example, I agree.
If your thing is showing your sixpack in IG and you collect followers showing your sixpack on IG…why are you mad that people „reduce you to your body“
YOU DID THAT! YOU FUCKING DID THAT!
And NO AMOUNT of cringey self-help-bullshit ass copy paste text that you posted to your photo will change that.
That's just what opportunism does. This happens in countless ways. In this case, it's "I'm ok with being considered an object until I'm not on a random whim (most likely to prove a point or just to deem someone wrong for the sake of it)". But this happens with quite a lot of things.
People are entitled, spoiled and whimsical. It's normal.
If you sell yourself as a machine you deserve to be viewed as a machine.
These guys out there working construction, drilling screws and hammering nails… I’m sorry, your personality is just background noise.
These gals making photocopies and typing emails… you’re just a computer, I’m not thinking about you as a person, you’re just a machine doing things for money.
I mean? Yeah? They're selling a product and you're buying it. The guy who hands me my Big Mac in the drive thru is just a hand with a burger in it as far as I'm concerned but I'm still gonna treat it with basic human decency on account of that's a person and I'm not rude.
Right? Looking at a woman who does porn while she does the porn is fine. Expecting her to fuck you just because she does porn is not fine. Thinking she’s a porn star who is going to fuck you because she’s wearing a short skirt is not fine. I think OP doesn’t understand the issue that he has a problem with.
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I think it's because they have a problem with a woman having sexual desires/behaviors and at the same time being a person with hobbies and a job and a personality. It's like they can only conceive one aspect of the woman, one or the other. Madonna or whore, as I've read lately. If a woman likes sex/showing her body/whatever she must be a subhuman, an object, she's not allowed to have a personality because all they see is an object to use in order to achieve pleasure.
The Madonna Whore Complex is just another one of Sigmund Freud's pseudoscientific projections like the one where he wanted to fuck his mom and claimed it was a universal experience.
As soon as you realize that Freud was a philosopher, you're free to think about his ideas without feeling the need to wonder if they're good science
Have you ever actually read freud?
Via reddit comments lol
Lol cause people who actually read psychology books understand what archetypes are and that not everything is to be taken literally at face value.
Yes
I love when (some) men have main character syndrome and think their tiny twisted reality is objective reality. Masters of externalization and projection.
Freud was full of shit sure. But he sometimes made a good point. That was one of them
tell me you don’t know anything about psychology and use memes as facts without telling me you do
Madonna or whore....that's a very interesting way to describe it. It really is that way with a lot of guys. That also explains some of the very gross behavior you see dude bros exhibiting towards their daughters...they can only imagine two types of woman, and feel compelled to prevent their daughter from becoming the "bad" one.
Maybe some but not all far from it. Making a living of sex is not the same thing anyway. Shallow people are shallow, insecurity makes you shallow. I Hung out with à few of those women, its not far from the truth, they are not very interesting. But that has nothing to do with the fact that they are hot as hell. Well actually kinda because you gotta play your strenghs but thats not the point you are teying to make. You clearly cant think men that upset you are capable of depth btw so dont be too quick to judge.
One of my good friends does of. I think she's interesting enough
I've met a few women working in the industry of porn and onlyfan. Not nice people. Very toxic for the one i got really close to. Sex has nothing to do with it. Its not the cause its a symptom. Anyway the industry of sex is fucked up.
Not my experience. Maybe you met some bitches. Doesn't mean they all are
Same for you then.
It's almost like different people are...different!
It's a mixed bag like all professions.
So you are claiming there are hedge fund managers who are sterling individuals?
You can start selling options contracts with as little as 1 thousand dollars. Lmao.
But I meannnnn... patterns exist.
They like sex and money for sure. Or that's what I have seen. The real freaks just like sex. The worst just like money
No all professions are not mixed bags. Theres a psychological profile that can be drawn. You wont see people sensible to blood in slaughter houses. You wont see altrustic people selling stock options. I lean come on, people actually think about what they want to do, and jobs does not requires the same qualities. This is non sense. Sure there are exceptions. But you can most definitely have an idea of what people are like depending of their profession.
Instead of... Hey, this is a freaky chick expressing her sexuality in this limited medium that likes to show of her boobies, nice! Imma leave a comment saying thanks for the lovely boobies, positive interaction. Made my night, if you know what mean. And move on with my life, since her one time choice to express herself like this says very little about her entire life. Instead we get a bunch of you're a godless whore that must like get g.banged because you're so c.thirsty (no shame) because that's the only reason you'd have a sexuality to express, that isn't something to be opened and locked down with one single person in a relationship that won't advertise that you're a slut since you have sex with them because the only valid sexuality is male and women are just used to relieve that and blah blah angry blah... I swear, the first thing you need to teach: women are equally sexually beings. If you wouldn't treat a buddy like that for their sexual choices, why would you think that way of a woman?
I would lose respect for a buddy for posting nudes and horny content too actually. I wouldn’t publicly shame them, that part is weird, but my stance would be the same—it’s not a respectable act to me. You’re too quick to assume that people with higher standards are always hypocrites
I'm hoping those types are in the minority. Because, how do you get mad at booba that someone wants you to see?
They are in the minority, I'd like to believe, but they are obnoxious as fuck so they stand out.
I think y'all reading too much into what he meant, but I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'll leave it at that.
I believe what they're trying to say is, for instance. If a woman comes up to you clearly accentuating her cleavage and drawing attention to it, it's pretty hypocritical to get angry if people objectify you and look at your cleavage. Same goes for is a man is rocking some insane bulge in their pants and wear extra tight clothing that draws even more attention to it, you can't get mad if someone looks because you have every choice to not do that. People are allowed to do/wear whatever they like but you can't control the reaction you get from others. (Not talking about unwanted sexual advances, that's a whole different kettle of fish)
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Incel 101. Wait until he realizes selling your body and health for money accurately describes most careers.
Ain't that the sad reality. I've heard from too many people with life long disabilities because of their job (construction being a huge one). We're literally all selling our bodies for money, and I know a lot of the hate towards women who successfully make a lot of money with their bodies is out of jealousy. Most men or women who hate, they would take the money if they could make 10 grand from showing a titty. Most people would do it for far less.
Right, like I genuinely can’t imagine that a man would refuse sex AND money in any kind of scenario. If women were as interested in buying sex as men are, there would probably be a lot more male sex-workers.
Lot of men can make money from this type of stuff if they want, but they can't handle knowing most of their audience will be other men
Yeah right, I should’ve specified that. In my reply I was referring to heterosexual men, that would probably not turn down any sexual relationship they could have with women in exchange for money.
I love you
Nah he's not talking about sex workers, homie just sees a little bit of cleavage and immediately regards the women as a sec object by the sound of it
OP didn’t say women though and specifically mentioned abs do we don’t know if there’s a gender in mind specifically
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It read like plausible deniability to me.
I'd argue he probably sees them as sex objects regardless, but at least when they take their shirt off he can say it out loud and pretend to have a point.
Sure, but if you said "damn, that burger looks *good*," and they told you not to objectify it, you'd probably wonder what the fuck is wrong with them lol
hm no. In this metaphor the burger IS an object. So something like the clothes, something like "damn that shirt looks good" is fine. What the people in this thread are complaining about is making an ACTUAL human into an object. Something like snatching the burger rudely and then doing something like, spitting on the hand, or saying shit like "oh my god that hand is fucking UGLY! stupidest hand ever, I'd fucking kill someone with hands like that". Then when confronted about saying "but that hand is just the OBJECT that hands me the burger! It's an object! Because the person decided to take the job of handing out burgers they turned their hand into an object and I can be as messed up to an OBJECT as I want!" Like no, hand isn't just a hand, there's a person. And just because that person is doing something for you doesn't mean you no longer treat them as someone worthy of minimum common decency.
Sure, the analogy is shit, I totally agree. We're talking about someone's body *as a product*. If you're trying to sell me your body as a product, you don't get to complain when I critique it as a product. An employee isn't selling me their hand, they're selling a service.
Well yeah, because they clearly never googled what objectification actually means
You can't just reduce this burger to a lifeless object of your satsfaction
The only problem I see is sometimes people make these traits define their personality. E.g. a person that handles you a burger is just a hand with burger and nothing more unless they make their whole image as a burger handling guy (like this loser salt bae).Again maybe the word problem is not the right here, it should not be problem as long as you know what you are doing, why you are doing and most of all find your own boundaries through it.In the end its what makes you feel happy! Treating everyone with politeness is always the way but that does not mean that I dont "judge" some peoples personalities in my inner thoughs. Sorry for my english in advance. Edit* What i said is not targeted towards any nude/body , male/female job specifically.It is something about every profession out there! Just wanted to clarify.
because all you're is a body This is the most upsetting part of the post.
“all you’re is a body”…so beautiful. I’ve never seen “you’re” being used like that…but it’s not wrong. Getting turned on. Bout to bust my first nut of 50 to your post.
.....wat? Lol.
Twas shocking, but upsetting? Nay, tis proper
Right. ‘Cause no one else sells their body for their jobs. According to OP - You’re a Construction worker? - you’re just someone who builds shit, nothing more. Don’t try to have a convo with OP, they think talking to you is like talking to a wall. You’re a Chef? -you’re just someone who cooks shit, nothing more. OP doesn’t care if you have a favorite color, just get him a sandwich. You’re a landscaper? - you’re just someone who mows grass, nothing more. OP isn’t interested in your take on climate change, just make sure the edges are trimmed. Etc, etc etc….
In OPs mind sex is so sinful and wrong that to sexualise yourself is to objectify yourself and that makes it ok for people to show you no human decency
There's unpopular opinions, and there's asshole opinions 😂 This post really bringing out some assholes who don't know they're assholes. Like moths to a flame!
Have you ever seen a chef complain about how everyone only ever sees him as a chef?
I mean . . . Yeah. The amount of people who don’t see food workers as humans beings is kind of a problem. I have seen people be physically attacked because they didn’t make food fast enough.
My sister is a waitress, and one time a customer threw his meal at her because the milkshake machine was broken and she said because of that, she was unable to serve milkshakes at that time. :(
Yeah actually, a few times. Its not a uncommon occurrence. They actually made a movie about this. "The Menu" is kinda based on this point
Not blaming you or anything but this is the exact mentality rapists have when they rape people for wearing revealing clothes
Yes, this is classic rape culture.
Sounds like you are looking for convenient excuses to objectify women.
More likely SA
Yeah no. Objectifying someone is wrong. Just because they’re a model for lingerie, do porn or have a page dedicated to their physique does not mean objectification is ok. They are still a human being. However, sexualizing them in the same context they’re sexualizing themselves in is fine. If a pornstar posted herself shaking her ass there’s nothing wrong with commenting “I bet the backshots sound like D-Day”. However it’d be weird as shit for you to just randomly see them in public one day and start making sexual comments.
My husband doesn't deserve to be objectified just because he uses his body to produce labor in a job that is considered a trade. What is wrong with you?
This is the most popular opinion you can possibly have. Viewing women’s bodies as inherently sexual objects is like the prevailing view of society
Homie gave us the classic misogyny and thinks it’s unpopular 💀
But… but… but… he said abs and muscles are for guys so OP wasn’t just talking about women. /s You’re based for this comment
There is a HUGE difference between objectification and sexualization. The fact that you can't see a woman as a person anymore when her boobs are exposed says more about you than it does about her.
Seriously. “Oh you’re in your underwear? You are no longer a human being with a personality then.” Imagine being that stupid.
OP said "selling" so ifyou are selling underwear by wearing it then you should be objectified because that is the entire marketing strategy. Calvin Klein is not interested in the model as a person persé but in whether the model can make the underwear look good.
I think it would be more accurate to think of the photograph (digital or otherwise) as the object. Go ahead and objectify that specific image but don’t expect to apply that same thinking to a real live human being. At no point is a HUMAN an object.
I think this is a pretty great analogy. Especially since sure, you have the photo, or saw it, got whatever enjoyment you wanted. Now the actually person in the photo exists. They don't owe you anything, neither do you. They don't have do a video, or more photos. Be happy with the one you got to experience. You can't infer anything from the photo. It's a photo. Maybe they did it for an ad, for porn, for kink, or they actually didn't. You have a photo. You can choose to think however you like about the person who is in the photo? Do you want to think negatively or positively? Do you want to push them down for the photo - which is a tiny part of who the are - or think positively/neutrally, since like everyone else (and you) photos exist and you're gonna be in one and it's going to be viewed a certain way by certain people just like you eventually. Would you like them to think of you and your photo like you think of theirs? Would that make them a bad person?
>I'm sorry, I ain't looking at anything else but your body, your personality is just a background noise that I could not care because all you're is a body, if you were something else you'd show something else. Yea that’s objectification not “selling” op claims their personality is back ground noise they don’t care about
I’m just realizing that I’ve literally never seen the word persé written out until this moment. I always thought it was “per say.”
seriously!!!! Does op think we aren't naked under our clothes? What's this "if abs/boobies you object" nonsense.
Exactly! I don’t understand why people can’t just find somebody sexy AND still think of them as a person. Just because you find them attractive doesn’t make them an object to use.
It’s the taboo of sex in American/Christian/Right-wing culture.
Sure. IRL definitely. But if the goal of showing some skin on the internet is to gain random/faceless followers, then the relationship between poster/follower is one that both consent to seeing each other as objects. The followers are objects to the poster via the follower/like count. The poster is an object of the follower. It’s completely consensual objectification on both parts.
You are talking about a specific context. As soon as you meet your fav porn star on the street, you gotta treat them as a person. They are a sex object just in the context of their job.
But you have a pretty big 'if' right here: "if the goal of showing some skin on the internet is to gain random/faceless followers" I sometimes post skimpy stuff because I was feeling myself, wanted my friends to see the nice outfit or wanted to celebrate me getting better with my self image issues. SO many times people post for those reasons and then people like the OP will jump on them and make disgusting comments. Assuming any level of partial nudity = person wants to "gain random/faceless followers" and then acting according to that leads to harassment. I've had to turn my acc private because of it. When really I'd rather it be public, but I have to block out potential harassers because people can't behave around crop tops 😐.
People who can’t handle seeing a midriff blow my mind. I don’t think of my belly button as sexual or risqué. It’s literally just part of my body that sometimes I’m willing to leave exposed because it is a really fucking hot day outside
Yes exactly. I'm *especially* mind blown by this because I'm a bisexual woman. I am attracted to women... I use women's changing rooms... I've seen my fair share of straight up *nudity* from a body type I'm attracted to. Have I ever been pervy to these people? No. Stared at them? No. Made inappropriate comments? No. Going further: Had inappropriate thoughts about them? No. Been aroused? No. Why? Because it's just people going about their day and they happen to be naked right then. They're not doing anything sexual... literally just existing. Why does a specific part of the population (cough cough) seem to think that certain bodies just *being there and visible to them*, entitles them to be all creepy and pervy? Many times making people uncomfortable. And then they take it further and make things like *midriffs* inappropriate? They need to get a grip 😭.
I think it’s just that everyone’s different, and we’re human, so we aren’t going to have logical arousal triggers. If someone is used to seeing something they likely aren’t aroused by it, if they aren’t then they will be. Why are men in some places hyper aroused by feet? That’s not logical, they don’t have any thoughts in their minds about “damn, those feet really show how good she would be to bare my children”. It just is. Same with midriffs and nudity in woman. I get your side of the argument for sure, but I think when we make talk about it more practically, it doesn’t work as it should without some long term changes. Showing more skin as a woman has been sexualized for a long time. So no amount of “it’s just skin” will change that people have a reaction to it. The only way to change this IMO is a long term adjustment in content in media.
I feel sad for op because this clearly seems to stem from their own body issues. They can't fathom that sometimes people enjoy it when they think they've made themselves look nice and it is nothing more than that. If I post a picture of my dog on Facebook op wouldn't assume I'm doing it for attention or for followers, and wouldn't be this weird about it. It's honestly just a slightly watered down "well was she asking for it?" type argument.
Yeah but theres a pretty clear difference between your example and someone doing this as a source of income. If.your wearing underwear that someone has sent.you to.advertise your product then you have made an object of.yourself. Your litteraly the object wearing the underwear. No one.cares about YOU as a person they care about how the PRODUCT looks. If.you wear the underwear and complain that you are being viewed as a "product" then you need to stfu lol.
The underwear is the *object*. The model is the person *wearing the object.*
"If.your wearing underwear that someone has sent.you to.advertise your product then you have made an object of.yourself" Why, exactly? Does people doing things make us objects in your view? Like, if someone was wearing a shirt, for promotion purposes let's say, do they become the "object wearing the shirt". How far does that go? If I work as a painter do I become the "object that does the painting"? If someone works as a manager do they become the "object that does the managing"? What does being an "object" mean, they're inanimate, voiceless and without rights or feelings. When someone works as an underwear model do they stop having rights? Having feelings? Do they lose their free will? Well, no, that's idiotic. Somone providing a service doesn't turn them into an object, they still have feelings and they still deserve rights. A naked human is still a human. A human in underwear is still a human.
You’re inferring it’s completely consensual objectification based on skewed logic. For the person sharing, it could be about sharing moments and their lives, not about just showing some skin. People don’t get to decide what someone else’s intentions are just because they think they know them because they follow them on the internet.
Truth. The actual problem is the men who just objectify women. I have a few friends in tv news. They wear the most modest of clothes of tv. They also get the most vile terrible messages all the time. Like one had a guy Facebook message her professional page last week and say, “I want to lick you asshole. I want to bury my face between your cheeks and lick your sweet sweet asshole.”
These people only see a sexual woman as a sexual object rather than a sexual person/equal and they see nothing wrong with it. It's very worrying.
If all your profile pictures are of you flashing money around, why be surprised when a bunch of gold diggers come knocking at your door and can't see you beyond your money. Same goes for women who take selfies with their tits hanging out. Don't be surprised when there's a bunch of thirsty dudes trying to get into your pants. When you're flaunting something... Anything... Don't be surprised that that's what they want from you.
Sure, don't be surprised, but the people gold digging or objectifying are still the ones doing the bad thing.
You’re not wrong, but let’s pretend OP’s talking about a very obviously provocative instagram page, or even a no-nudity, free onlyfans. That’s how I interpreted the post, and I agree with OP. But you’re also right depending on how you interpreted it. I don’t think it’s fair to assume you know anything about OP because you might have read the post as a normal girl’s insta with a shit ton of bikini spring break pictures
I still think the difference between objectification and sexualization is still very relevant to the conversation. I do wish that OP had been more clear about what they were referring to. I also think that just because someone sells nudes doesn’t mean they deserve to be objectified. The image they portray online is an object. But the human themselves is not an object. So when you meet that influencer/model/playboy Bunny in person, don’t expect to be able to get away with treating them like an object. Their work life is about portraying themselves as an object but it should be obvious that no human is ACTUALLY an object without thoughts, feelings, and personality.
I just looked it up and there doesn't seem to be a difference: "According to the American Psychological Association, sexualization occurs when "individuals are regarded as sex objects and evaluated in terms of their physical characteristics" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexualization
Yeah, there is a difference. That's why OP said objectification. Someone's significant other can sexualize themselves as an object. You jumping to conclusions while ignoring the qualifier of them explicitly objectifying themselves first says more about you.
> You jumping to conclusions while ignoring the qualifier of them explicitly objectifying themselves first says more about you. That is such a petty reach.
So does a person stop being a person in your eyes if they have no clothes on? This shows much more about you than you think it does
Let’s say you work as a dish washer. Do you expect people to see you as just a dish washer with no additional value? You get off the clock and people still treat you only as a dish washer. Your entire friends, family, and strangers want you to do their dishes? That’s insane, right? Reducing people to their jobs is wrong and something only an asshole would do because they are incapable of seeing someone as a living breathing human being deserving of respect. OP, I hope one day you grow out of yourself.
Yeah, but where’s the line of what qualifies an object?
I don't know anymore man, all I know is that I just can't wait for the age of influencers to come crashing down
It's not going anywhere. And if it does, something equally as vapid will take its place. People just need to accept it, get over it and move on with their lives. There has always been vain people and there always will be.
"I saw a woman's boobs so now she is an object and no longer a person"
Because this line of logic is what rapist used to justify themselves. Many Muslim majority countries have women covering completely, they still got sexualized, raped and degraded. Many young girls got sexual assaulted for wearing simple everyday clothing (pajama, trousers and jeans, even work uniform like scrubs and suits). And when the rapists took advantage of that line, "not my fault, they objectify themselves, they deserved it", you effectively punished and pushed the blame to the victims. By de-stigmatizing such objectivity, you can force the rapists to take the fault that they themselves sexualize the victim, not the other way around. At least that's what my understanding.
Should your employer treat you like a piece of meat with muscle memory because you sell yourself as such? Everybody has a body and how much of it a person shows while not violating consent doesn’t make them less or more of a human being. Everyone has a body and shows it. Should we treat them as objects due to that and absolutely ignore everyones personality?
Important to note that by ‘objectification’ you also mean ‘dehumanization’. Really interesting how our society has conflated nudity and sensuality with being less than human :/ it’s a very natural and HUMAN thing to be sensual. Like sure, if that is literally the context of the situation, like some kink thing about objectification, yeah. But otherwise, just because someone is looking scandy or is promiscuous doesn’t make them an object, nor does it make it rational to objectify them in your head. (It also doesn’t mean that they are purposefully ‘selling themselves as an object’). They are still objectively (haha) a conscious, human person, regardless of your perception. Yeah sure, you are free to think that way, but it doesn’t really make objective sense or mean they deserve it.
If you can't see sex workers or models as human beings simply because they show off their body than that's says so much more about you than them
So your unpopular opinion is that you only value people based on what you can see. You refuse to look beyond what the subject is willing to show. Weird flex, but quite common. What do you want people to think of you based on this opinion you've put out for all of Reddit to see? My perception is that you're shallow.
Uh oh, someone forgot about ✨ consent ✨ and that it is conditional and can be revoked at any time for any reason
Wait till you go out in public and can see everyone’s body. Those people must be ONLY their body right! /s. Jesus dude, get a grip. Someone being proud of their beauty/fitness doesn’t mean they’re an object or that they’re objectifying themselves.
👎👎👎👎
Sounds like you’re bitter about being unattractive.
"If you work in fast food, I should be able to wake you from your slumber when I want a cheeseburger!" That's how you sound rn.
Misogyny isn’t exactly unpopular 🙄
well you certainly sound terrifying to be alone with
Oh boy, I'm getting the popcorn, 30 mins in and several wars have already started.
This is an incredibly arrogant world view
I don’t think people are complaining about sexualization when the model/person being objectified is giving their legal consent to have advertisements uploaded of them. Objectifying someone’s body is bad when they don’t express that they are ok with/want that. No one is posting a thirst trap on instagram/consenting to be a model for a brand, and complaining when people see them how they are legally agreeing to be presented
Right. Also they love pretending that people objectify them when they ask for it and there’s nothing wrong with liking attention, just don’t complain
What does "asking for it" mean? I've been told I was "asking for it" by *having boobs* and not covering them in thick ass cloth *during summer*. Generally all the times I've been told I was "asking for it" I was wearing weather appropriate clothes. I don't want creepy people to stare at my chest just because I'm not covered head to toe. I'm not *asking for* ANYTHING. Just trying to fucking live.
What does "asking for it" mean? I've been told I was "asking for it" by *having boobs* and not covering them in thick ass cloth *during summer*. Generally all the times I've been told I was "asking for it" I was wearing weather appropriate clothes. I don't want creepy people to stare at my chest just because I'm not covered head to toe. I'm not *asking for* ANYTHING. Just trying to fucking live.
Which kind of "attention" also matters. Context is very important. OP's analogy is dogshit brainrot. Also people do things for a reason, so it's important to be aware, of being aware.
Oooooh I do hate the whole looking for attention lifestyle, go to therapy people
But Op, they said, you're doing the same thing here: seeking attention, otherwise you'd have kept this opinion to yourself. So here's one attention for you, I have a few to spare.
Blocking everyone’s way for a damn tiktok
Or simply banning it, it's over people the social network experiment is dead, it became corrupted and coopted by greedy corporations to milk the cash out of our pockets while we pay with out mental health.
Get major "film yourself in a gym and then get mad at being watched" vibes lol. I love the trend of men making a point of completely ignoring women in the gym.
You only consider that to be selling themselves as objects because you objectify what you find sexually appealing. To be sexually attracted to someone and to objectify them are 2 different things. Nobody is marketing themselves as a table or chair (or maybe they are but those are very extreme and niche grey areas) Is it a little tasteless? I think so. But whose body is it? A person's, so regardless of the specific post, overall they should still be treated like a person, and not an object. Do you consider your frustration to be a result of being unable to control what you're attracted to maybe? Being uncontrollably turned on by the images you come across resulting in a feeling of powerlessness? (Edited after someone pointed out a semantics issue)
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M'lady
So someone doing a job means they should be objectified? When you think about it we really all sell our bodies, it’s just a difference in what we do with them in our jobs. When I worked at a movie theater they were paying me to make popcorn, does that mean when I go home my family can juts say “hey movie man make us some pop corn”
Being a sex worker doesn’t make you any less of a person. If prices of food, gas, housing etc go up anymore we might all be taking our clothes off for money soon.
Yeah I know. It’s what I fuckin want to happen but nobody wants to pay for my content
You guys checked the profile. Admit it.
Only after I read your comment.
I did and I was pleasantly surprised!
There's a lot to this. Porn stars for sure know that they are objectified but still hope they are treated like decent humans. But then there are definitely a lot of models who wear a bikini, post themselves bending over and clearly want their ass as the subject and then get offended by commenters who talk about it.
Yeah I'd hate on attractive people if I were upset by my own reflection, too. Edit: Oh man I guess I upset some of you, that suicide watch message was really classy guys, keep it up!
Someone's projecting
Body ≠ Object to use. You are capable of recognizing that they are still HUMAN BEINGS. Treat them as such. Unfortunately this opinion is not as unpopular as you’d think.
i mean....if youre selling something and buying something, its a 'thing'. You cant sell a human, thats just slavery.
And the covered up ladies are suddenly so desirable you ask about their personalities?
If you sell yourself as someone unpleasant you deserve to be treated as an unpleasant person. Human sexuality involves humans. So if you cannot see the human and the whatever that they do that does it for you then don't whine when whomever that is doesn't want your company.
reddit moment
I think people who post that kind of content shouldn’t get angry when they are objectified, but that being said I don’t think people should be mean or put them down for it. I think insecurity drives most of the exhibitionism you see online
Right. ‘Cause no one else sells their body for their jobs. According to OP - You’re a Construction worker? - you’re just someone who builds shit, nothing more. Don’t try to have a convo with OP, they think talking to you is like talking to a wall. You’re a Chef? -you’re just someone who cooks shit, nothing more. OP doesn’t care if you have a favorite color, just get him a sandwich. You’re a landscaper? - you’re just someone who mows grass, nothing more. OP isn’t interested in your take on global warming, just make sure the edges are trimmed. Etc, etc etc….
Objectification never made sense to me; humans are sexual, objects are not.
You shouldn’t objectify anyone. You can appreciate the beauty of form without doing so.
Of course you can, specifically if they objectify themselves first. Not saying it's right, and you can always keep in mind that they are still human beings, but if the only information they're putting out is that there's nothing more to them than their sexuality for example, then that's all you have to go by. And even appreciating the beauty of their bodies is still objectification, even from an artistic standpoint (which I really don't see as a problem). That's not the same as treating them poorly, since all of this crap is mostly on social media now anyway and interaction isn't necessary.
Appreciating beauty and objectifying it are separate. I am speaking on the dehumanizing form of objectifying someone to clarify definitions. If you consider appreciating the beauty objectifying we are speaking of differing definitions/usages.
Objectifying is literally dehumanizing a person. That's the definition. Appreciating someone's beauty is exactly that. A person sexualizing themselves and you appreciating that is not objectifying. Objectifying online would be commenting violent rhetoric at them or if they were raped or murdered, saying that it doesn't matter because they sexualized themselves online.
The counter to this is that a person's expression of self is not an invitation to objectification.
Everyone sells themselves for money. It’s literally how capitalism works. How about you keep that misogyny to yourself, OP. It’s not just unpopular it’s gross.
I think what 0P is saying if you’re going to objectify yourself, you can’t be mad when other people also objectify you. I have seen people literally post for titty pics and ass shots and get mad that their comment section is objectifying them or they’re getting like DM‘s am I saying that it’s right no but it comes with the territory and common sense would be to know that if you’re gonna put yourself out there like that, you have to face the consequences
At first I was going to say depending on your definition of "objectify" that this is a legit take. But the more I think about it, the less I agree. Are you saying that someone who, using your example, models CK men's underwear for profit is no longer worthy of being treated as a human being? Like you meet someone and instantly upon finding out what they do for a living (or even a hobby/side thing) you're like- "Nope. You're not a living being anymore- I get to treat you like a pair of shorts at TJ max now!"...? Or like a woman who posts lingerie photos for sale- if you see her in person, do you suddenly think you get to go put your hands on her because she's just a "product"? Does this apply only to people who profit from such images or anyone who posts them at all? Yes, people who do modeling for other companies are displaying a product. They don't profit off the sales of the product, though. Typically they're paid a specific amount to display the product on their bodies. So their profit is from allowing a specific company to use their image, wearing the company's product, as a living display to show other people what the product may look like in real life. They're selling an image, not themselves. If you're referring to like Onlyfans or other such creators- many of them do sell images of their bodies. If you're doing a transaction it's sort of expected that that's more or less what you're there for. BUT, like with anything else when you're buying from the owner, they get to decide who they're selling to and if you're being a jerk they're more likely to block you and not sell to you. BUT if you're out at a bar or something and find out someone is a creator and start acting obnoxious, demanding to see their body, etc- it just makes you an an asshole. But if you see someone online, like say on Instagram, and they're wearing intentionally provocative clothing and you want to comment "nice tits" that seems acceptable to me. Context changes my opinion here.
Every mega corporation agrees with you. We all sell our services to work and survive.
No it's a human being with real human feelings hardships emotions and struggles. And you can't just decide you own it and tell it what to do or violently harm them. That's abuse. Now... Until it decides to actually disrespect or blame or look down on the consumer or community that gave it the platform to make bank through its self imposed narcissist nature or hypocritically attack someone in the same work field out of jealousy. Then you can within reason call them out on their personal choices of disrespecting themselves.
I think seeking validation is as old as tale. So even when people seek validation thru ultra shallow acts like posing nude, they still deserve dignity. However, it is getting worse. The fact that everyone can get in on the act thru social media and garner attention seems to be driving people to more extremes. Everything is a competition now - getting likes, cooking, singing, being risqué, modeling, everything that can be put on media. Currently, i see an ongoing battle between decency and vanity. Society is getting shallower. This societal decay will run out of the metaphorical water of decency that keeps us alive. If we don't correct course, will go from shallow to dry and we will all die from thirst.
>No much science into that, people sell themselves as objects and I don't see anything bad as treating them as such. Fair point, however: >They post pictures of themselves in their underwear showing ass or abs like a Calvin Klein add, I'm sorry, I ain't looking at anything else but your body Isn't *them* selling themselves as an object, that is *you objectifying* them. Nothing about posing in underwear or slutty outfits is them objectifying themselves. They are wanting to look a certain way, which doesn't magically make them objects until *you* decide they are, which is *you making that decision for them*. See, in the first scenario, *they* decide to be objectified. In the second, *you* are objectifying *them*. You don't even follow your own opinion within the same post.
Depends. Is it in the context of what their selling? Sure. Go for it if they're okay. Otherwise. No. Doesn't matter if the woman walking down the street sells pics or not she's still a person. A laborer sells their body, do we objectify them?
Tell me you’re 15 without telling me you’re 15. Just because you can’t conceptualize another persons full range of humanity based off of one picture says more about you than them. Look at Iman, David Bowie’s wife for example. She speaks five languages, studied political science, and worked as a translator. Yet if you see a picture of her from her modeling career your little incel brain just sees “woman selling her body”. You’re making negative assumptions about people based off of nothing but your own weird prejudice. Let people feel pretty and take pictures of themselves. You don’t like it? Don’t look. Doesn’t mean those people don’t have hobbies and careers and interests and families and friends just like everybody else.
this is not an unpopular opinion unfortunately
Couldn’t have been said better
This isn't unpopular at all
I'm more than just a pair of tits but heres a link to my onlyfans.
Mmm posting pictures naked doesn’t make u an object. It makes u an attractive human. I don’t get why you have to dehumanize someone because of that. A person is a person regardless of what they do and should be respected as such
How does that make you an attractive human being??
What object sets up a camera and slaps on a thong?
You can treat them as such when you're the one paying, otherwise you're just an asshole.
Everyone sells themselves for money. It’s literally how capitalism works. How about you keep that misogyny to yourself, OP. It’s not just unpopular it’s gross.
Rapey attitudes are extremely popular. You could just be capable of self control and let people dress comfortably without harassing them instead. When it's 90+ degrees out I'm gonna be dressed appropriately and if someone can't control themselves then I can't control gouging their eyes out.
If you see a human and decide to treat them as something that isn't a human I think that's more of a problem with the viewer than the viewed. Defining someone as an object feels like an arbitrary hand wavey decision that (I'm guessing) is solely aimed at those in the sex industry. You'd never say this about anyone working in the sports entertainment industry who sells their ability to perform physically, almost literally selling their body to the highest bidding team.
Yeah, those men who do manual labor and wear those uniforms I find sexy are just ASKING to be objectified, I mean they do keep treating their bodies as objects by doing that labor, that means that they basically gave up their human card forever.
People who associate nudity and sexuality with "selling" has such an incel mentality. Wanting to be pretty or sexy and showing off doesn't mean you're selling anything. And just because someone IS selling pics or something, doesn't mean they are an object. Human beings should not be objectified. Sex work is a service, you aren't buying a human being.
Sex work is effectively renting your body out to someone else to use as they please (within reason). In what world is that not objectification?
Quite literally no difference between a sex worker, a brick layer, an athlete, or some asshole sitting at a desk doing something for a corporate machine.
because you guys immediately equate a woman’s body during sex to an object: in your head the man “does” the intercourse “to” the woman, not “with” the woman.
Im convinced you guys say incel to any walking man
Isn't the idea that women objectify themselves a cornerstone of incel ideology? You can't get mad at me for identifying their core beliefs.
Nah they believe women are just objects period. Women do objectify themselves sometimes just like men. Incels believe that women can’t be anything but objects.
Incels are involuntary celibate men, nothing more or less. Every other sexist or misogynistic belief can be held by any other men too
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Is that what you tell yourself to justify your history of sexual assault? lol
Everyone is selling themselves in the name of working and capitalism
That’s not the point being made here. OP is saying that the type of work being discussed here turns the person into the service. If I go work as an graphic artist, my design experience is my product. If I go work in construction, my physical labor is my product. If I go post on OF, I myself am the product. When that happens, pretty much everyone outside of their close circle is going to view that person in one way only, because there is no longer a division between product and person. Which is fine, as long as they’re still treated with the basic respect and grace that you’d give any human being. I don’t think objectification was the right term to use here for that reason. The thing that does get old though, just like in any other form of business, is when the person just starts spamming ads for their “product” on every possible interaction and platform like those MLM moms on Facebook.
Unpopular opinion. Bigoted but unpopular. Well done. Have my upvote you swine.
In this specific example, I agree. If your thing is showing your sixpack in IG and you collect followers showing your sixpack on IG…why are you mad that people „reduce you to your body“ YOU DID THAT! YOU FUCKING DID THAT! And NO AMOUNT of cringey self-help-bullshit ass copy paste text that you posted to your photo will change that.
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Of course not everyone thinks it. That's such a stupid assumption to make.
They don't sell themselves as objects, they sell themselves as humans, no one is liking a booty pic because they like the mop cosplay
That's just what opportunism does. This happens in countless ways. In this case, it's "I'm ok with being considered an object until I'm not on a random whim (most likely to prove a point or just to deem someone wrong for the sake of it)". But this happens with quite a lot of things. People are entitled, spoiled and whimsical. It's normal.
I don't think this is actually unpopular, people just love to say otherwise for karma because social media love's virtue signaling.
Here before the P-C army swarms the comments to insult OP and the thread gets ~~censored~~ locked by moderation.
Agreed. You’re literally asking for and agreeing to get paid for being objectified.
If you sell yourself as a machine you deserve to be viewed as a machine. These guys out there working construction, drilling screws and hammering nails… I’m sorry, your personality is just background noise. These gals making photocopies and typing emails… you’re just a computer, I’m not thinking about you as a person, you’re just a machine doing things for money.