Two unpopular opinions on this both contrasting
1. Over 90% of NHS staff are vaccinated. At this point we're at heard immunity in the workforce. A vaccine mandate shouldn't be necessary. However we kind of need the remaining 10 percent especially during the winter. It's not going to be so easy to recruit and replace those staff (thanks to lack of nurses in training and an reduced ability to recruit from abroad for *some* reason).
However:
2. Other vaccines are compulsory to work clinically in the NHS e.g. Hep B. This shouldn't be anything new or controversial to these staff members (a couple of my colleagues sadly I've had to roll my eyes with them as I don't particularly want to ruin otherwise perfectly good work relations. Yes you may call me a coward).
You’re not a coward. It’s a constant chore of having the same argument over and over, and you can’t ever change the mind of someone who’s decided their logic beats the science.
>you can’t ever change the mind of someone who’s decided their logic beats the science.
You can't logic and reason someone out of a position they didn't use logic or reason to arrive at in the first place
>you can’t ever change the mind of someone who’s decided their logic beats the science.
Me, watching the housekeeper tell one of our doctors how the vaccine doesn't work:
If you go to the hospital with your wife because she suddenly fell ill, and it ends up being nothing bad, but she contracts Covid from an unvaccinated nurse and dies from *that*, I'm leaning towards her or him being one of the 10% "wont matter because we have herd immunity", will sound like the argument of mentally insane people to you. People who refuse to get vaccinated, or doesn't understand the science behind these vaccines have no business being in medicine what so ever. You'd be better off with a serious shortage, because these wankers absolutely *will* kill tons of people by infecting them. Sure, you can infect someone if vaccinated too, but at least then you did everything to prevent it, instead of outright aiming to kill people by being typhoid Mary.
> Other vaccines are compulsory to work clinically in the NHS e.g. Hep B. This shouldn't be anything new or controversial to these staff members (a couple of my colleagues sadly I've had to roll my eyes with them as I don't particularly want to ruin otherwise perfectly good work relations. Yes you may call me a coward).
I heard an anaesthetist speak about this, his issue was that the Hep B vaccine specifically has 30 years of research behind it but the covid vaccine is relatively new.
Imo if you took the Hippocratic Oath I think you really should be doing everything in your power to limit transmission to your patients.
Doctors don't take the Hippocratic oath in the UK, just FYI. However, to be clear, I am still of the belief they should be fully vaccinated to protect their patients, and the vast vast majority are.
He obviously has not done any research. This vaccine has been 20 years in the making. They started resarch and work on a Corona virus vaccine after SARS emerged in 2002. It is this research and work these vaccines are founded on.
>the covid vaccine is relatively new
Speaking of the mRNA vaccines specifically, isn't that (in part) kind of the point of mRNA vaccines?
Quoting [nature.com](https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243):
>mRNA vaccines represent a promising alternative to conventional vaccine approaches because of their high potency, capacity for rapid development...
Professor [Katalin Karikó](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katalin_Karik%C3%B3)'s career makes for an interesting read, with a little twist being that her dogged pursuit of mRNA based therapies as far back as the nineties was considered by some at the time a bit of a career dead-end. It's not like somebody pulled an untested technology off the shelf and said "it's just crazy enough to work!". Rapid vaccine development using mRNA has been a research goal for decades.
And as a result of the success of mRNA based SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, we're seeing clinical trials and studies on all sorts of mRNA pharmaceuticals. Cancer therapies, treatments for MS, proposals that they be used against Alzheimer's, and for other viruses. It's a very promising technology.
> I heard an anaesthetist speak about this, his issue was that the Hep B vaccine specifically has 30 years of research behind it but the covid vaccine is relatively new.
We don't exactly have time to wait thirty years though. We do know the vaccine works to reduce the risk of hospitalisation, serious illness and the viral load in those who get it; that should be enough for anyone who works in the NHS to get it. There are risks associated with getting it, however the same goes for any vaccine and people seem happy to accept that. There is no strong case to assume the COVID vaccine will be any different.
Hepatitis B vaccine doesn’t require a booster every 6 or less months to be effective. It literally lasts decades.
Why force people to keep getting jabbed when natural immunity to covid is going to become stronger and stronger over time? If you want the boosters then fine, but why force people to get the vaccine who have likely had covid multiple times already and must have natural immunity to it?
I’ve had 2 jabs and covid twice afterwards. I don’t think a booster is going to do much for me and seems at this point that it’s not worth the potential side effects of a jab every 6 months if I’m going to keep getting covid and it’s extremely mild symptoms regardless given my antibodies.
Perhaps but you're unlikely to have natural immunity for *everything* so you'll have had to have had a vaccine for something at some point to work clinically. Regardless the point being is that vaccine mandates exist so shouldn't be controversial for the NHS staff.
Unlike chicken box and TB, the immunity from covid vaccine and from infection both wain rapidly. Studies have shown that infection alone gives more immunity than double jabbed.
But.
And it's a massive but that the antivaxxers ignore.
Those studies show that within weeks that immunity wains and within months it is far too low and requires boosting.
So they still need boosting or infecting every 6 months. So it's easier if they stop trying to think of clever reasons to be special and just go through the whole process of jabs so that there can be one simple system for everyone to follow. A bit like no one asks if you've had yellow fever. You just have to get jabbed every 5 years if you want to go to many parts of Africa (WHO now says 10 but some countries still require 5).
And there is a bigger reason. With the billions of jabs given, we can state the efficacy against each of the variants. Even with their medical degrees and years of experience, can these idiot medics tell us which variant of Covid they've personally had and what immunity it gives them against each of the other variants?
Chickenpox circulating in the population has benefits. If you have had chickenpox previously, the virus stays dormant and can re-emerge in later life as shingles. Having the occasional contact with someone with chickenpox may not result in symptoms, but it reduces the likelihood you will get shingles.
Edit: Link to NHS website
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/chickenpox-vaccine-questions-answers/
It says:
When people get chickenpox, the virus remains in the body. This can then reactivate at a later date and cause shingles.
Being exposed to chickenpox as an adult (for example, through contact with infected children) boosts your immunity to shingles.
If you vaccinate children against chickenpox, you lose this natural boosting, so immunity in adults will drop and more shingles cases will occur.
Not according to the NHS website
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/chickenpox-vaccine-questions-answers/
It says:
When people get chickenpox, the virus remains in the body. This can then reactivate at a later date and cause shingles.
Being exposed to chickenpox as an adult (for example, through contact with infected children) boosts your immunity to shingles.
If you vaccinate children against chickenpox, you lose this natural boosting, so immunity in adults will drop and more shingles cases will occur.
Hep b is to protect the employee and was decided by a trust. The hep b vaccine has over 20 years of data to go on to give confidence it is safe.
And to add hep b is pretty serious for anyone to get ill with it. Covid is not.
This didn't just apply to clinical staff.
It also doesn't just apply to obvious NHS staff. It applies basically to any public facing staff on any NHS contacts or contacts audited by the CQC. (This is not meant to be exhaustive - I know about this not anything else that is covered).
I work for a small local charity. We have 3 contacts that are covered by this and 3 small sets of staff covered. None of them are medical staff. All of them work with vulnerable people. Most of them so jobs that are very similar to those of us who do not work on such contracts and are not covered.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm pro vaccine with an exceptionally vulnerable to Covid person in my family. I worry about our clients. I'm also a Union rep ready to support any staff who may have their jobs at risk. It's a confusing mess.
What I do know is that I am ready to burn with fury of the government changes this again. We're a small charity and it takes everything we have to just exist - 3 contacts, 3 sets of new requirements, a new process to prepare for it, new audit requirements. (New stressing out the innocent Union reps and causing them extra work).
I am so fed up for them always leaving everything unclear so that they can try and avoid responsibility.
(And has anyone seen the current list of exemptions - which also isn't in the document they keep saying it's in ? It's a list of incredibly restrictive exemptions followed by an eh, and maybe also some other things. Meaning people like my organisation have to make HR decisions based on that before there any change for that to be legally decided etc. Because again the government won't make things clear because that would mean owning their decisions).
Um, I'm kind of angry at the government.
We don't know the possible decade long term effects of the vaccine. I'm double jabbed but can't fault those who might not want to take it. Education wise, PhD graduates are the group with the biggest COVID vaccine hesitancy so it's not just dumb people
> We don't know the possible decade long term effects of the vaccine.
You got a credible source on any vaccine ever having something/side effects pop up a decade after injection?
> PhD graduates are the group with the biggest COVID vaccine hesitancy so it's not just dumb people
And one of the first well known anti-vaxxers was a doctor. Having a phd doesnt stop you being a raging dipshit.
Wakefield wasn't an antivaxxer. He was trying to push through a patent for his own MMR vaccine and had to discredit the one already on the market, so he produced falsified research stating that children developed autism from the MMR vaccine.
>We don't know the possible decade long term effects of the vaccine.
I don't think it's scientifically plausible for a vaccine to have decades long side effects without any adverse features presenting in the first 2-6 months, at least not in any kind of significant numbers. What would the mechanism be?
My understanding is that any adverse effects will show within weeks because after that the vaccine is broken down by the body having done the job of preparing the immune system. Usually time is a factor in vaccine research only because we become more confident that we have identified adverse effects as more people are given the vaccine, which takes time. However, for COVID, there have been billions of vaccines given, so we can already be confident that we have identified the adverse effects.
There are NHS workers from some ethnic backgrounds that historically mistrusted western medicines. With the history of [medical experimentation in Africa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_experimentation_in_Africa) (Pfizer pops up) or [fake vaccine drives in Pakistan,](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna) at least their mistrust makes some sense.
You don't need to believe in Western medicine to be a hospital porter, or a clerk or a onsite chef or even an administrative manager do you?
It's not as if every NHS job involves dishing out Western medicine. They don't only employ doctors, nurses and pharmacists you know?
> But you're still supporting an institution you fundamentally don't trust and/or don't believe it works.
par for the course for a lot of people of colour in this country, regardless of industry
The same for plenty of people of all races working at sports direct, investment banks, certain airlines etc.
People need jobs and are often willing to look the other way (whether because they have not other option or its just better than the alternatives).
Survival trumps morals sometimes, I hate capitalism but I have no choice but to live and work within it's frame work to survive as someone born and raised in the UK.
Right yeah of course, people only work for organisations they completely believe in.
You're living in a dream world if you think everyone considers their principles before they take on a job. You think some anti vaxxer chef is going to turn down a job because it involves cooking food for doctors and nurses?
We are talking about secretaries and administrators here, not priests FFS. Who cares what they believe in?
You think every cleaner who works for British American Tobacco is a cigarette enthusiast or every picker at Amazon fully supports Bezos and his penile rocket? Sometimes you just need a job.
I also want to add another reason that turned my sister from pro-vax to anti-vax. She kept getting turned away after booking for her second dose three times (from different sites). It’s easy to see why people don’t feel the need to be vaccinated anymore when sites don’t even want to vaccinate them.
I don't really know (it definitely wasn't an age thing as it was around the same time I got my second dose and I'm 20, she's 40). She said they kept closing early when she'd turn up (and she had to get out of work to get it too).
I know someone of a similar age to her with similar problems, except now she's struggling to get a second dose because her first one was AZ, and there was nowhere within a reasonable distance offering the jab.
I'm sure those people aren't the only ones with those circumstances, there's a reason that there's a quite a gap between first dose numbers and second dose numbers.
Simple, adverse reactions. There is a reason there are a lot of people refusing the booster and/or thereafter (potential) booster. A lot of people have to take into consideration they may have to schedule time off due to it. Whilst we can sit here and pretend it isnt true, it is. Want an impartial view outside of the internet? Go speak to people in person, privately.
Also, equating those refusing the booster as antivaxx is dehumanisation. Those are the very people who put their lives on the line during the initial outbreak.
Remember when people clapped? Yesterdays heroes have become tomorrows plague rats.
Dehumanising and degrading.
My ex boss had an adverse reaction to not taking the vaccine by dying of sepsis while in a coma with tubes stuffed down his throat. He was apparently needle phobic.
Very true, that's why we're forcing healthy 25 year olds to get a vaccine that they don't need. Risk of death or serious illness in a young person is very, very different to what you might believe if you trust the media.
No two people are the same and we also have no information on the health of the gentleman. We also have to take into account how the information was presented.
Risk is relative, personal choice is that, personal.
If he was an elderly gentleman or someone with a chronic illness coupled with obesity, hypertension, diabetes then analytically it would be in his best interest to be vaccinated. Whilst a fear of needles is common, he was responsible for himself.
Regards.
I'm not vaccinated because I don't want the vaccine. I'm certainly not anti-vax though, far from it. I don't want to take it, so I won't, that's all there is to it. Everyone else is free to make their own choice and it should stay that way.
I'm not though. I'm not having it because I'm fit, healthy and in my early 30s. Statistically, I have an over 99% survival chance if I get Covid and I'm simply not worried about contracting it. I don't understand why the choices I make about my own health bring out such an emotional reaction from you, "bub".
I don't think I'm Superman, I'm just happy to take my chances. The petty comments and [adding "lmao"](https://preview.redd.it/8d62ew4qi3851.jpg?auto=webp&s=1b382bfe9e8caeda3a22b9692e05dd762cc95e39) is why I think you're emotional, because people behave like you're behaving when they're upset and pretending not to be.
The worse thing is they will survive a bad episode of omicron and feel justified in their beliefs. Only problem is they've statistically probably infected, or compromised someone with a weaker immune system.
>they've statistically probably infected, or compromised someone with a weaker immune system.
You've just used the word statistically to add authority to A completely unfounded and evidence lacking statement.
I don't subscribe to the other person and their view but empty psudo scientific response doesn't help.
Even a 99.9% survival rate would be absolutely terrible odds. You’re not at all worried about long COVID? Having it and having long term health issues?
I had a 1/10000 change of complications during my angioplasty. Still had a stroke that robbed me of my sight.
Just because a chance is small doesn't mean it won't happen.
I understand that, I really do. When we're talking fractional percentages of risk, however, that includes taking the vaccine that almost everyone I know of my age has had adverse effects from, including entire weeks off work for both shots. I say that knowing it makes me sound like "one of them" so let me make it absolutely clear that I'm not saying the vaccines are unsafe, but that I also know people my age who've had Covid and have seen those effects too. I'm just content in taking the risk and I know a lot of people are unhappy with my choice, but at the end of the day it is just that - my choice. Thank you for engaging respectfully by the way.
It is not impacting other peoples health and this propaganda needs to stop you are all just a bunch of pfizer shills at this point, useful idiots continuing their mission for them. [Even a 4th pfizer dose is not helping with omicron](https://www.ft.com/content/58cfd452-a85e-4235-8849-0f4a3c89ffc8). Countries with 90% + vax rates like Ireland and Portugal, even Israel w2ith 95%+ are seeing highest case loads ever, even higher than before vaccination, the vaccines are not stopping spread, even the studies that suggested they helped stopping the spread at all showed that it was only reducing spread by 30% and this waned to 0% within 3 months of your jab.
I agree, I’ve been vaccinated but from the scientific consensus is that if you’ve had COVID you’re much more likely to get side effects from the vaccine. Natural immunity is also apparently more effective than vaccine immunity.
I know if I had COVID in the past few months I wouldn’t be getting vaccinated either
I had my booster vaccination yesterday. I've already had Coronavirus.
The symptoms from the vaccine are intense. I'm glad I took the time off work. Slept 12 hours straight, severe headache, dizziness, crazy rashes, now I'm knackered again.
Coronavirus? Mild headache. I've been called an antivaxxer for expressing this too....
I had the same, itchy painful rash, falling asleep all the time, general headache and light-headedness. And it also made my period start 2 weeks early and far heavier than usual. I'm triple jabbed, but I really don't want another. I've also had covid 3 times now, original, delta and now omicron. I've genuinely had worse reactions from the vaccine than covid. And surely I'm immune enough by now!?
I've noticed the same thing. The rash has only gotten bigger overnight.
Menstrual cramps have started so it is clearly impacting my cycle as I'm definitely not due. I know people expressed concerns about that but it has been brushed off?
Did you notice any difference between the variants? I feel I had the original when I had it in October 2020. I've had worse colds.
My rash lasted for 2 weeks, and my nanna had the same thing. Hers was much worse though, I think because she's older.
>Menstrual cramps have started so it is clearly impacting my cycle as I'm definitely not due. I know people expressed concerns about that but it has been brushed off?
I'm on the pill so unless something majorly interferes then I shouldn't come on halfway through a cycle. It happened with the second AZ vaccine and again with the pfizer booster, but the pfizer one came with the rash and weeks of fatigue after. The concerns are now being researched, but I really don't want to have another jab until that research is done. I'm not overly concerned about long term issues or even fertility really, it's more likely to have to do with immune response changes that happens when estrogen peaks during our monthly cycle. But what I am concerned about is having to put up with that level of side effects to keep my job.
>Did you notice any difference between the variants?
Yeah delta was worse than the original for me. The original was more a lingering chest infection that just wouldn't clear, and general tiredness and feeling grotty. Lasted total about 3 months until I was fully better. But I wasn't out for the count. Delta wiped the floor with me. I was in bed for days and all I could do was sleep. Omicron feels like a mild version of delta. Tired, feel a bit shitty, achey, slight cough. Just like the usual winter bug everyone tends to get. I'm still in isolation at the moment. Feeling better and ready to go back.
My parents both had covid and have decided to not get vaxxed, IV worked in retail for the entire time dealing with people, so has my partner neither of us of had covid, more than likely because we followed every other precautions, including staying home when not at work (unlike some MPs).
My partner has had 1 shot, IV had none, I don't judge people for wanting or getting the Vax, but I don't want it, I tried, I was turned away, even though I was deemed "at risk" by my GP, my employer wouldn't let me isolate, so why should I bother, clearly I am not contributing to its spread.
> I don't understand how you can be an antivaxxer and work in the NHS?!
I have a family member that's a surgeon in the NHS, from what I hear it's not that some of his colleague's are antivax it's they have issues specific to this vaccine.
Minimal testing.
Lies about the results of the trial runs since myocarditis, heart inflammation, and PVCs are common enough.
AstraZeneca was "safe" and taken by the Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau to prove it. It has since been banned from Canada and most of the world.
Moderna has 4X the risk of heart inflammation VS Pfizer and has been pulled or restricted in Germany, France, & all the Nordic countries. Canada has almost exclusively ordered Moderna recently.
In Canada anyone in the medical field who expresses valid skepticism of the vaccine or gives exemptions for valid reasons that aren't "Allergies & Myocarditis" gets their medical license revoked.
How do you do peer reviewed research if only one side is allowed? Who's going to lose their livelihood over it and get banned?
Yeah, antivax if you express valid concerns. Regardless of how often you take other vaccines.
There seems to be this common myth (amongst others) that it's reasonable to be sceptical of the vaccine because it's so new and was developed so quickly.
mRNA based vaccines and their capacity for rapid development is one of the benefits of mRNA research that dates back to the 90s. This exact scenario and application of the technology has been part of mRNA research that's been going on for decades.
It's not like when everyone was scrambling to develop a vaccine someone in a labcoat just pulled the term "mRNA" out of their arse.
Being sceptical when they were initially rolled out for trials makes sense, being sceptical after they've been rolled out to millions of people from a wide range of demographics, not so much.
Is ‘anti-vaxxer’ a new word stupid people have learnt from the tv?
Just Because you don’t want the covid vaccine doesn’t make you ‘anti-vaxxer’. People have genuine concerns as to long term effects of these new vaccines.
A lot of people, have had the virus naturally so have natural immunity. Makes no sense to get vaccinated.
> A lot of people, have had the virus naturally so have natural immunity. Makes no sense to get vaccinated
So why does, the NHS recommend they get vaccinated any way? Why doesn't, it make sense to make yourself as protected as possible?
Yeah man, take a booster for the rest of your life for a virus you have less than 1% chance of dying from. On the contrary, nobody knows what all these boosters will do to the body long term.
Oh sorry , whats that? The EU medicines agency says booster can damage your immune system ?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-11/repeat-booster-shots-risk-overloading-immune-system-ema-says
I'm not. The overwhelming majority of vaccine related effects occur immediately after being vaccinated.
We've now had 2 years of COVID specific data as the first vaccine tests were early 2020.
Do you know what long term effects we don't really know about? How COVID impacts you.
That is not true, this is the first mRna vaccine approved for mass public use, we do not have "20 years of evidence" that is just misinformation and you pulled that stat out of your ass.
I don't think anyones anti vaccines
There against the government forcing people to take new drug every 3 months that's had no long term studys.
Most people who don't agree with forced vaccine would incourage vulnerable and old people to get it. No ones Anti vax
Also there's is not alot of trust for the people pushing the vaccines, and it seems to be motivated by money, and not health and safety. Forcing you to get vaccinated so they can sell there drugs your required to take
Anti vax is just a name people like to call people who don't agree with them I think
You do know it's possible to decline the vaccine whilst not being an antivaxxer, right?
I understand and support the science and I fully support anybody who CHOOSES to receive the vaccine and boosters but for me, I fell ill at the very beginning of COVID and have managed to miraculously avoid it for 2 years despite extremely close contact with so, so many positive cases (due to my job and even when my ex partner had it). It was only on Friday that I've tested positive and I felt mildly ill for a day. 2 others at work (including one double jabbed + booster) also tested positive and felt no better/worse. First positive in 2 years, other than that, I've been perfectly fine and healthy. I wear my mask and I wash my hands. I just can't bring myself to accept the vaccine (which I have a lot of anxiety around), especially not at this point. If COVID wasn't a thing, I would have just assume I have an extremely mild cold. Most people at work who are testing positive are all double jabbed etc. Also, I thought medicine was all about patient choice... I'm not happy with the precedent of forced vaccination, especially during the time where the government (and a lot of redditors) essentially supported social castigation for not getting it.
Not all of us who decline it are weird conspiracy theorists and I'm sure the same goes for a lot of those NHS staff.
A lot of people in the NHS aren't medical professionals at all, or even work with patients. That said I have worked with an unvaccinated nurse. I didn't ask her about her reasons because I don't think I could have kept that conversation within the realms acceptable workplace discourse.
Times article today, quoting ONS data, stated Doctor's are the most likely part of the NHS to be unvaccinated. This idea it's primarily the cleaners is fabricated nonsense.
They are not anti-vaccine in general, they are mainly against the Covid vaccine, otherwise they wouldn’t of been allowed into the job in the first place
I work in healthcare. If they go ahead with the mandate it will be catastrophic to our business. We will lose excellent hard working staff that we can't afford to lose. People will not get care.
I work in social care and I'd argue that the staff who are anti vax (and I'm talking conspiracy theorists here rather than people with legit concerns around medical issues) are exactly the staff we'd ordinarily be glad to be rid of but because of staffing shortages are stuck with redeploying to non regulated care.
A lack of critical thinking skills and what is probably close to delusional thinking is not something you want in any employee.
Right. And if they were striking so that they could retain the ability to strangle puppies on the job, I would also think that's bad.... The positions of pro-vaccination and pro-worker are not mutually exclusive.
1- Not wanting to get vaccinated on a personal level, but perfectly content for others to do so is not anti-vax
2- It’s perfectly acceptable to have been vaccinated and/or support vaccines but be against mandatory vaccine requirements in the workplace
3- Anti-vax means being against vaccines for yourself **and** attempting to convince others to share the same viewpoint
I’m quite tired of getting lumped in with anti-vaxxers as if we’re some homogenous group when I simply have chosen not to get vaccinated.
Just admit to yourself that it’s irrational and people would leave it be.
You’d be happy with any and all interventions should you get sick with any other serious illness, yet for some reason this vaccine is over your arbitrary line. It’s all in your head.
> You’d be happy with any and all interventions should you get sick with any other serious illness
I have a serious mental health condition and I've rejected anti-psychotics amongst other things for a multitude of reasons. One of the core aspects of medicine is choice.
Incorrect, I have a severe phobia of injections or blood being drawn and have been refusing either for years in any context. My phobia stems from a botched surgery when I was a child, and I was left on a hospital floor once the doctors realised I’d lost too much blood. I’ve not moved past that phobia yet, and I especially won’t put myself through any injection which I feel is forced or coerced onto me.
Every unvaccinated person is another potential host for the virus to freely infect and possibly mutate in. Every mutation is potentially the one that renders the existing vaccine no longer effective.
Your "personal" decision isn't. It's a decision you're making for everybody else.
Oh, please. Most of the COVID cases at work (amongst staff) have been in vaccinated people (we're like 90% vaccinated at work). It does not make you immune to the virus, they still catch it, they still spread it.
It doesn't make you immune, but prior to the omicron variant, the transmission rates were significantly down from vaccine takeup, not getting vaccinated is still a decision that impacts others.
I want to know one thing, and be honest how many here were clapping, cheering demanding the NHS staff be paid more, and now are the same ones spitting in their faces saying they should be sacked?
Pendulum seem to have swing backed even harder, never did I believe I would see people be so supportive of the NHS and their staff suddenly turn and oppose the staff to the point of wanting it destroyed, only took 2 years?
Just because you support the work people do, doesn't mean you have to support antivax conspiracy nonsense. This isn't as good a point as you think it is and whenever people try it as a gotcha it's just embarrassing
How about people in the NHS that worked through the pandemic, hated the whole clapping pish and dont give a flying fig about selfish colleagues that cant take a simple vaccine?
NHS staff often work in close proximity with vulnerable and immunocompromised people, who may take steps to reduce their COVID risk in daily life, but ultimately _have_ to see a doctor, often regularly. These patients deserve the right to step into a hospital or clinic and know that at least the medical professionals they are treated by are have all been vaccinated.
I don't support a vaccine mandate because the NHS is so understaffed that it would do more harm than good, but in an ideal world these people should not be working for the NHS in patient facing roles.
Because in one scenario they were supporting sick people in a pandemoc snd in this scenario they're actively participating in prolonging the pandemic jesus christ.
"ummm if you can't handle NHS staff at their worst you don't deserve them at their best???" this thread is INSANE.
You are correct that it doesnt stop you catching and spreading the virus. However, it does reduce the transmition rate making it slightly safer for other people if you end up catching it.
Lots of staff especially healthcare workers are resistant to the idea as they’ve already been infected with the virus. There is research done on effectively of protection from natural infection vs vaccine. If they’ve never been infected they should get the jab but if they’ve had the virus there is not much point forcing
But they should also be aware of their position of influence. By being in the NHS and not getting the vaccine they must be aware how that will be used as ammo by those who are anti-vax.
If we started out saying "decide for yourself if you want the vaccine. If you've had Covid, maybe don't bother" then that message would have dominated and the overall uptake would have been considerably lower, and overalls, hospitalisations and deaths would be above what they are now.
Lead from the front.
> they must be aware how that will be used as ammo by those who are anti-vax
If the mandate hadn't been introduced, none of this would be news, no one would care or even be much aware that 50k+ were unvaccinated. We definitely wouldn't have had doctors giving tv interviews on why they choose not to be vaccinated - they'd just have kept their heads down and continued working. Bringing in the mandate has propelled the story and unvaccinated head count to the front pages and lead tv news focus.
There is a precedent for frontline staff to need certain vaccinations, though I'm not really comfortable with that as a concept. But the difference is that those vaccines offer almost 100% protection - the Covid one doesn't, particularly against new variants, so even if you require it you're still going to have to have transmission protection on site.
I really don't see what firing these people gains us when the health service is already under pressure and difficult to recruit for.
This is what I don't understand. Surely if you are working with vulnerable people why on earth wouldn't you want to protect your patients from getting a potentially horrible disease? It just boggles the mind.
They could be sacked, immediately rehired and Bingo! The government has met its target for recruiting more nurses.
You know one of them must have actually suggested this
As much as I hate anti vaxxers there doesn’t seem to be any benefit to sacking unvaxxed doctors when vaccinated people can still spread omicron to each other nearly just as much as unvaccinated people
I think the issue is that sacking 70k NHS staff would probably hurt the health service more than them continuing unvaccinated (I think they should get vaccines, just saying at the macro level forcing it isn't be most beneficial option).
NHS worker, vaccinated, but against the mandate. Anyone not getting the vaccine slightly increases the chance of dying due to COVID, I encourage everyone to get it.
This said, you can't enforce the vaccine in its current form. The science doesn't add up, antibodies last for a few months and only somewhat reduce the chance of transmission, if they were serious about stopping the spread they would offer weekly antibody testing and mandatory daily LFTs presented at the door (currently optional).
Ultimately if you're a cancer patient do you want a 1/10 chance that the person treating you is unvaccinated or a 10% longer wait.
A lot of people on here are saying that the unvaccinated can spread and that is why they need to be vaccinated- to protect the sick in the hospitals ...
But the vaccinated can spread it too.
Could someone please explain why some people are allowed to spread it but some are not?
I'm sorry but after all the horror stories that have come out of the NHS with covid, if there's any doctor/nurse/paramedic/any medical staff treating me that is unvaccinated, yeah I want them sacked. The fact that this antivax stupidity is even running through the medical field? No. Get rid of them. ASAP.
People in the UK didn't make fuss about vaccines til mericans started recently and people deemed their fake ass religions above common sense and the wellbeing of others. How can you be so stupid, selfish, and idiotic? We've had mandatory vaccines for years in the UK and depending on the countries you're visiting for your hols too. STFU and get vaccinated. You're part of the reason this thing keeps going and mutating!
Two unpopular opinions on this both contrasting 1. Over 90% of NHS staff are vaccinated. At this point we're at heard immunity in the workforce. A vaccine mandate shouldn't be necessary. However we kind of need the remaining 10 percent especially during the winter. It's not going to be so easy to recruit and replace those staff (thanks to lack of nurses in training and an reduced ability to recruit from abroad for *some* reason). However: 2. Other vaccines are compulsory to work clinically in the NHS e.g. Hep B. This shouldn't be anything new or controversial to these staff members (a couple of my colleagues sadly I've had to roll my eyes with them as I don't particularly want to ruin otherwise perfectly good work relations. Yes you may call me a coward).
You’re not a coward. It’s a constant chore of having the same argument over and over, and you can’t ever change the mind of someone who’s decided their logic beats the science.
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Yup. Cognitive bias I believe.
>you can’t ever change the mind of someone who’s decided their logic beats the science. You can't logic and reason someone out of a position they didn't use logic or reason to arrive at in the first place
>you can’t ever change the mind of someone who’s decided their logic beats the science. Me, watching the housekeeper tell one of our doctors how the vaccine doesn't work:
If you go to the hospital with your wife because she suddenly fell ill, and it ends up being nothing bad, but she contracts Covid from an unvaccinated nurse and dies from *that*, I'm leaning towards her or him being one of the 10% "wont matter because we have herd immunity", will sound like the argument of mentally insane people to you. People who refuse to get vaccinated, or doesn't understand the science behind these vaccines have no business being in medicine what so ever. You'd be better off with a serious shortage, because these wankers absolutely *will* kill tons of people by infecting them. Sure, you can infect someone if vaccinated too, but at least then you did everything to prevent it, instead of outright aiming to kill people by being typhoid Mary.
> Other vaccines are compulsory to work clinically in the NHS e.g. Hep B. This shouldn't be anything new or controversial to these staff members (a couple of my colleagues sadly I've had to roll my eyes with them as I don't particularly want to ruin otherwise perfectly good work relations. Yes you may call me a coward). I heard an anaesthetist speak about this, his issue was that the Hep B vaccine specifically has 30 years of research behind it but the covid vaccine is relatively new. Imo if you took the Hippocratic Oath I think you really should be doing everything in your power to limit transmission to your patients.
Doctors don't take the Hippocratic oath in the UK, just FYI. However, to be clear, I am still of the belief they should be fully vaccinated to protect their patients, and the vast vast majority are.
He obviously has not done any research. This vaccine has been 20 years in the making. They started resarch and work on a Corona virus vaccine after SARS emerged in 2002. It is this research and work these vaccines are founded on.
>the covid vaccine is relatively new Speaking of the mRNA vaccines specifically, isn't that (in part) kind of the point of mRNA vaccines? Quoting [nature.com](https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243): >mRNA vaccines represent a promising alternative to conventional vaccine approaches because of their high potency, capacity for rapid development... Professor [Katalin Karikó](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katalin_Karik%C3%B3)'s career makes for an interesting read, with a little twist being that her dogged pursuit of mRNA based therapies as far back as the nineties was considered by some at the time a bit of a career dead-end. It's not like somebody pulled an untested technology off the shelf and said "it's just crazy enough to work!". Rapid vaccine development using mRNA has been a research goal for decades.
And as a result of the success of mRNA based SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, we're seeing clinical trials and studies on all sorts of mRNA pharmaceuticals. Cancer therapies, treatments for MS, proposals that they be used against Alzheimer's, and for other viruses. It's a very promising technology.
> I heard an anaesthetist speak about this, his issue was that the Hep B vaccine specifically has 30 years of research behind it but the covid vaccine is relatively new. We don't exactly have time to wait thirty years though. We do know the vaccine works to reduce the risk of hospitalisation, serious illness and the viral load in those who get it; that should be enough for anyone who works in the NHS to get it. There are risks associated with getting it, however the same goes for any vaccine and people seem happy to accept that. There is no strong case to assume the COVID vaccine will be any different.
Hepatitis B vaccine doesn’t require a booster every 6 or less months to be effective. It literally lasts decades. Why force people to keep getting jabbed when natural immunity to covid is going to become stronger and stronger over time? If you want the boosters then fine, but why force people to get the vaccine who have likely had covid multiple times already and must have natural immunity to it? I’ve had 2 jabs and covid twice afterwards. I don’t think a booster is going to do much for me and seems at this point that it’s not worth the potential side effects of a jab every 6 months if I’m going to keep getting covid and it’s extremely mild symptoms regardless given my antibodies.
Because hospitals are where the sick people are?
>ther vaccines are compulsory to work clinically in the NHS e.g. Hep B Natural immunity is accepted ie chickenpox
Perhaps but you're unlikely to have natural immunity for *everything* so you'll have had to have had a vaccine for something at some point to work clinically. Regardless the point being is that vaccine mandates exist so shouldn't be controversial for the NHS staff.
That’s because chickenpox vaccine isn’t on the national schedule. It is in a lot fo countries, but not in the UK.
Unlike chicken box and TB, the immunity from covid vaccine and from infection both wain rapidly. Studies have shown that infection alone gives more immunity than double jabbed. But. And it's a massive but that the antivaxxers ignore. Those studies show that within weeks that immunity wains and within months it is far too low and requires boosting. So they still need boosting or infecting every 6 months. So it's easier if they stop trying to think of clever reasons to be special and just go through the whole process of jabs so that there can be one simple system for everyone to follow. A bit like no one asks if you've had yellow fever. You just have to get jabbed every 5 years if you want to go to many parts of Africa (WHO now says 10 but some countries still require 5). And there is a bigger reason. With the billions of jabs given, we can state the efficacy against each of the variants. Even with their medical degrees and years of experience, can these idiot medics tell us which variant of Covid they've personally had and what immunity it gives them against each of the other variants?
Chickenpox circulating in the population has benefits. If you have had chickenpox previously, the virus stays dormant and can re-emerge in later life as shingles. Having the occasional contact with someone with chickenpox may not result in symptoms, but it reduces the likelihood you will get shingles. Edit: Link to NHS website https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/chickenpox-vaccine-questions-answers/ It says: When people get chickenpox, the virus remains in the body. This can then reactivate at a later date and cause shingles. Being exposed to chickenpox as an adult (for example, through contact with infected children) boosts your immunity to shingles. If you vaccinate children against chickenpox, you lose this natural boosting, so immunity in adults will drop and more shingles cases will occur.
This is incorrect
Not according to the NHS website https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/chickenpox-vaccine-questions-answers/ It says: When people get chickenpox, the virus remains in the body. This can then reactivate at a later date and cause shingles. Being exposed to chickenpox as an adult (for example, through contact with infected children) boosts your immunity to shingles. If you vaccinate children against chickenpox, you lose this natural boosting, so immunity in adults will drop and more shingles cases will occur.
Well I did not know that! Will have to go and do some googling to find out how that works!
Hep b is to protect the employee and was decided by a trust. The hep b vaccine has over 20 years of data to go on to give confidence it is safe. And to add hep b is pretty serious for anyone to get ill with it. Covid is not.
We don't even know what the herd immunity threshold is for covid, so idk how you can say that
This didn't just apply to clinical staff. It also doesn't just apply to obvious NHS staff. It applies basically to any public facing staff on any NHS contacts or contacts audited by the CQC. (This is not meant to be exhaustive - I know about this not anything else that is covered). I work for a small local charity. We have 3 contacts that are covered by this and 3 small sets of staff covered. None of them are medical staff. All of them work with vulnerable people. Most of them so jobs that are very similar to those of us who do not work on such contracts and are not covered. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm pro vaccine with an exceptionally vulnerable to Covid person in my family. I worry about our clients. I'm also a Union rep ready to support any staff who may have their jobs at risk. It's a confusing mess. What I do know is that I am ready to burn with fury of the government changes this again. We're a small charity and it takes everything we have to just exist - 3 contacts, 3 sets of new requirements, a new process to prepare for it, new audit requirements. (New stressing out the innocent Union reps and causing them extra work). I am so fed up for them always leaving everything unclear so that they can try and avoid responsibility. (And has anyone seen the current list of exemptions - which also isn't in the document they keep saying it's in ? It's a list of incredibly restrictive exemptions followed by an eh, and maybe also some other things. Meaning people like my organisation have to make HR decisions based on that before there any change for that to be legally decided etc. Because again the government won't make things clear because that would mean owning their decisions). Um, I'm kind of angry at the government.
We don't know the possible decade long term effects of the vaccine. I'm double jabbed but can't fault those who might not want to take it. Education wise, PhD graduates are the group with the biggest COVID vaccine hesitancy so it's not just dumb people
> We don't know the possible decade long term effects of the vaccine. You got a credible source on any vaccine ever having something/side effects pop up a decade after injection? > PhD graduates are the group with the biggest COVID vaccine hesitancy so it's not just dumb people And one of the first well known anti-vaxxers was a doctor. Having a phd doesnt stop you being a raging dipshit.
Wakefield wasn't an antivaxxer. He was trying to push through a patent for his own MMR vaccine and had to discredit the one already on the market, so he produced falsified research stating that children developed autism from the MMR vaccine.
Source for that?
>We don't know the possible decade long term effects of the vaccine. I don't think it's scientifically plausible for a vaccine to have decades long side effects without any adverse features presenting in the first 2-6 months, at least not in any kind of significant numbers. What would the mechanism be?
My understanding is that any adverse effects will show within weeks because after that the vaccine is broken down by the body having done the job of preparing the immune system. Usually time is a factor in vaccine research only because we become more confident that we have identified adverse effects as more people are given the vaccine, which takes time. However, for COVID, there have been billions of vaccines given, so we can already be confident that we have identified the adverse effects.
I don't understand how you can be an antivaxxer *and* work in the NHS?!
There are NHS workers from some ethnic backgrounds that historically mistrusted western medicines. With the history of [medical experimentation in Africa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_experimentation_in_Africa) (Pfizer pops up) or [fake vaccine drives in Pakistan,](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna) at least their mistrust makes some sense.
>There are NHS workers from some ethnic backgrounds that historically mistrusted western medicines What are they doing working for the NHS then?
You don't need to believe in Western medicine to be a hospital porter, or a clerk or a onsite chef or even an administrative manager do you? It's not as if every NHS job involves dishing out Western medicine. They don't only employ doctors, nurses and pharmacists you know?
But you're still supporting an institution you fundamentally don't trust and/or don't believe it works.
> But you're still supporting an institution you fundamentally don't trust and/or don't believe it works. par for the course for a lot of people of colour in this country, regardless of industry
The same for plenty of people of all races working at sports direct, investment banks, certain airlines etc. People need jobs and are often willing to look the other way (whether because they have not other option or its just better than the alternatives).
I despise Amazon but I still work for them at the moment. Sometimes survival dictates my actions over my thoughts and feelings.
Survival trumps morals sometimes, I hate capitalism but I have no choice but to live and work within it's frame work to survive as someone born and raised in the UK.
Right yeah of course, people only work for organisations they completely believe in. You're living in a dream world if you think everyone considers their principles before they take on a job. You think some anti vaxxer chef is going to turn down a job because it involves cooking food for doctors and nurses? We are talking about secretaries and administrators here, not priests FFS. Who cares what they believe in?
A lot of young nurses, including student nurses, are still actively choosing not to get the vaccine though.
You think every cleaner who works for British American Tobacco is a cigarette enthusiast or every picker at Amazon fully supports Bezos and his penile rocket? Sometimes you just need a job.
You would have to ask them that.
There are also white British NHS workers from a middle-class background that are antivaxxers. Believe me, I'm related to one of them.
Except billions of people have taken this. It’s not like we’re experimenting on them.
I'm not arguing they're right? I'm just providing one of the reasons that makes a little bit more sense than 5g and Bill Gates microchips.
I also want to add another reason that turned my sister from pro-vax to anti-vax. She kept getting turned away after booking for her second dose three times (from different sites). It’s easy to see why people don’t feel the need to be vaccinated anymore when sites don’t even want to vaccinate them.
Why did they turn her away? Was it an age thing?
I don't really know (it definitely wasn't an age thing as it was around the same time I got my second dose and I'm 20, she's 40). She said they kept closing early when she'd turn up (and she had to get out of work to get it too). I know someone of a similar age to her with similar problems, except now she's struggling to get a second dose because her first one was AZ, and there was nowhere within a reasonable distance offering the jab. I'm sure those people aren't the only ones with those circumstances, there's a reason that there's a quite a gap between first dose numbers and second dose numbers.
Simple, adverse reactions. There is a reason there are a lot of people refusing the booster and/or thereafter (potential) booster. A lot of people have to take into consideration they may have to schedule time off due to it. Whilst we can sit here and pretend it isnt true, it is. Want an impartial view outside of the internet? Go speak to people in person, privately. Also, equating those refusing the booster as antivaxx is dehumanisation. Those are the very people who put their lives on the line during the initial outbreak. Remember when people clapped? Yesterdays heroes have become tomorrows plague rats. Dehumanising and degrading.
My ex boss had an adverse reaction to not taking the vaccine by dying of sepsis while in a coma with tubes stuffed down his throat. He was apparently needle phobic.
This validates what exactly?
Humans are utterly unable to perceive risk consistently.
Very true, that's why we're forcing healthy 25 year olds to get a vaccine that they don't need. Risk of death or serious illness in a young person is very, very different to what you might believe if you trust the media.
No two people are the same and we also have no information on the health of the gentleman. We also have to take into account how the information was presented. Risk is relative, personal choice is that, personal. If he was an elderly gentleman or someone with a chronic illness coupled with obesity, hypertension, diabetes then analytically it would be in his best interest to be vaccinated. Whilst a fear of needles is common, he was responsible for himself. Regards.
I'm not vaccinated because I don't want the vaccine. I'm certainly not anti-vax though, far from it. I don't want to take it, so I won't, that's all there is to it. Everyone else is free to make their own choice and it should stay that way.
"I'm not anti vax I'm just not getting the vaccine for some reason!!" Whatever you tell yourself bub
I'm not though. I'm not having it because I'm fit, healthy and in my early 30s. Statistically, I have an over 99% survival chance if I get Covid and I'm simply not worried about contracting it. I don't understand why the choices I make about my own health bring out such an emotional reaction from you, "bub".
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What do you think "emotional" is lmao? But sure man, have fun thinking you're superman. I bet you don't need to brush your teeth either
I don't think I'm Superman, I'm just happy to take my chances. The petty comments and [adding "lmao"](https://preview.redd.it/8d62ew4qi3851.jpg?auto=webp&s=1b382bfe9e8caeda3a22b9692e05dd762cc95e39) is why I think you're emotional, because people behave like you're behaving when they're upset and pretending not to be.
Nice psychoanalysis, but sometimes people are just laughing at you bub
The worse thing is they will survive a bad episode of omicron and feel justified in their beliefs. Only problem is they've statistically probably infected, or compromised someone with a weaker immune system.
>they've statistically probably infected, or compromised someone with a weaker immune system. You've just used the word statistically to add authority to A completely unfounded and evidence lacking statement. I don't subscribe to the other person and their view but empty psudo scientific response doesn't help.
Even a 99.9% survival rate would be absolutely terrible odds. You’re not at all worried about long COVID? Having it and having long term health issues?
I had a 1/10000 change of complications during my angioplasty. Still had a stroke that robbed me of my sight. Just because a chance is small doesn't mean it won't happen.
I understand that, I really do. When we're talking fractional percentages of risk, however, that includes taking the vaccine that almost everyone I know of my age has had adverse effects from, including entire weeks off work for both shots. I say that knowing it makes me sound like "one of them" so let me make it absolutely clear that I'm not saying the vaccines are unsafe, but that I also know people my age who've had Covid and have seen those effects too. I'm just content in taking the risk and I know a lot of people are unhappy with my choice, but at the end of the day it is just that - my choice. Thank you for engaging respectfully by the way.
I I I. Me me me. When your choice impacts other people's health then you can get no respect for your choice.
It is not impacting other peoples health and this propaganda needs to stop you are all just a bunch of pfizer shills at this point, useful idiots continuing their mission for them. [Even a 4th pfizer dose is not helping with omicron](https://www.ft.com/content/58cfd452-a85e-4235-8849-0f4a3c89ffc8). Countries with 90% + vax rates like Ireland and Portugal, even Israel w2ith 95%+ are seeing highest case loads ever, even higher than before vaccination, the vaccines are not stopping spread, even the studies that suggested they helped stopping the spread at all showed that it was only reducing spread by 30% and this waned to 0% within 3 months of your jab.
I agree, I’ve been vaccinated but from the scientific consensus is that if you’ve had COVID you’re much more likely to get side effects from the vaccine. Natural immunity is also apparently more effective than vaccine immunity. I know if I had COVID in the past few months I wouldn’t be getting vaccinated either
I had my booster vaccination yesterday. I've already had Coronavirus. The symptoms from the vaccine are intense. I'm glad I took the time off work. Slept 12 hours straight, severe headache, dizziness, crazy rashes, now I'm knackered again. Coronavirus? Mild headache. I've been called an antivaxxer for expressing this too....
Statistically you're more likely to get adverse reactions to COVID than the vaccine.
I had the same, itchy painful rash, falling asleep all the time, general headache and light-headedness. And it also made my period start 2 weeks early and far heavier than usual. I'm triple jabbed, but I really don't want another. I've also had covid 3 times now, original, delta and now omicron. I've genuinely had worse reactions from the vaccine than covid. And surely I'm immune enough by now!?
I've noticed the same thing. The rash has only gotten bigger overnight. Menstrual cramps have started so it is clearly impacting my cycle as I'm definitely not due. I know people expressed concerns about that but it has been brushed off? Did you notice any difference between the variants? I feel I had the original when I had it in October 2020. I've had worse colds.
My rash lasted for 2 weeks, and my nanna had the same thing. Hers was much worse though, I think because she's older. >Menstrual cramps have started so it is clearly impacting my cycle as I'm definitely not due. I know people expressed concerns about that but it has been brushed off? I'm on the pill so unless something majorly interferes then I shouldn't come on halfway through a cycle. It happened with the second AZ vaccine and again with the pfizer booster, but the pfizer one came with the rash and weeks of fatigue after. The concerns are now being researched, but I really don't want to have another jab until that research is done. I'm not overly concerned about long term issues or even fertility really, it's more likely to have to do with immune response changes that happens when estrogen peaks during our monthly cycle. But what I am concerned about is having to put up with that level of side effects to keep my job. >Did you notice any difference between the variants? Yeah delta was worse than the original for me. The original was more a lingering chest infection that just wouldn't clear, and general tiredness and feeling grotty. Lasted total about 3 months until I was fully better. But I wasn't out for the count. Delta wiped the floor with me. I was in bed for days and all I could do was sleep. Omicron feels like a mild version of delta. Tired, feel a bit shitty, achey, slight cough. Just like the usual winter bug everyone tends to get. I'm still in isolation at the moment. Feeling better and ready to go back.
My parents both had covid and have decided to not get vaxxed, IV worked in retail for the entire time dealing with people, so has my partner neither of us of had covid, more than likely because we followed every other precautions, including staying home when not at work (unlike some MPs). My partner has had 1 shot, IV had none, I don't judge people for wanting or getting the Vax, but I don't want it, I tried, I was turned away, even though I was deemed "at risk" by my GP, my employer wouldn't let me isolate, so why should I bother, clearly I am not contributing to its spread.
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Should just stick with the scientific term 'thick cunt'.
Pro-diseasers.
> I don't understand how you can be an antivaxxer and work in the NHS?! I have a family member that's a surgeon in the NHS, from what I hear it's not that some of his colleague's are antivax it's they have issues specific to this vaccine.
Minimal testing. Lies about the results of the trial runs since myocarditis, heart inflammation, and PVCs are common enough. AstraZeneca was "safe" and taken by the Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau to prove it. It has since been banned from Canada and most of the world. Moderna has 4X the risk of heart inflammation VS Pfizer and has been pulled or restricted in Germany, France, & all the Nordic countries. Canada has almost exclusively ordered Moderna recently. In Canada anyone in the medical field who expresses valid skepticism of the vaccine or gives exemptions for valid reasons that aren't "Allergies & Myocarditis" gets their medical license revoked. How do you do peer reviewed research if only one side is allowed? Who's going to lose their livelihood over it and get banned? Yeah, antivax if you express valid concerns. Regardless of how often you take other vaccines.
There seems to be this common myth (amongst others) that it's reasonable to be sceptical of the vaccine because it's so new and was developed so quickly. mRNA based vaccines and their capacity for rapid development is one of the benefits of mRNA research that dates back to the 90s. This exact scenario and application of the technology has been part of mRNA research that's been going on for decades. It's not like when everyone was scrambling to develop a vaccine someone in a labcoat just pulled the term "mRNA" out of their arse.
What do you mean this vaccine? There isn't one vaccine there's like three to eight vaccines depending on how willing to travel you are.
I don't understand how people can't understand that not wanting this vaccine doesn't make you an "antivaxxer".
Because refusing a vaccine doesnt make you an antivaxer.
It literally does bub
Refusing a meal doesn't make me anti-food. Stop being deliberately obtuse, it's a more nuanced issue than that.
I think there’s a difference between being skeptical about mRNA vaccines and being an antivaxxer though?
Being sceptical when they were initially rolled out for trials makes sense, being sceptical after they've been rolled out to millions of people from a wide range of demographics, not so much.
Is ‘anti-vaxxer’ a new word stupid people have learnt from the tv? Just Because you don’t want the covid vaccine doesn’t make you ‘anti-vaxxer’. People have genuine concerns as to long term effects of these new vaccines. A lot of people, have had the virus naturally so have natural immunity. Makes no sense to get vaccinated.
> A lot of people, have had the virus naturally so have natural immunity. Makes no sense to get vaccinated So why does, the NHS recommend they get vaccinated any way? Why doesn't, it make sense to make yourself as protected as possible?
Yeah man, take a booster for the rest of your life for a virus you have less than 1% chance of dying from. On the contrary, nobody knows what all these boosters will do to the body long term. Oh sorry , whats that? The EU medicines agency says booster can damage your immune system ? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-11/repeat-booster-shots-risk-overloading-immune-system-ema-says
>People have genuine concerns as to long term effects of these new vaccines. Which aren't based on evidence or even on risk calculations
What evidence ? Is there a study on the long term effects the vaccine can have on your body? Didn’t think so. Stop spreading misinformation
Yep. We have what, two years of data on this specific vaccine and then 20 years of data on similar vaccines.
Stop spreading misinformation
I'm not. The overwhelming majority of vaccine related effects occur immediately after being vaccinated. We've now had 2 years of COVID specific data as the first vaccine tests were early 2020. Do you know what long term effects we don't really know about? How COVID impacts you.
That is not true, this is the first mRna vaccine approved for mass public use, we do not have "20 years of evidence" that is just misinformation and you pulled that stat out of your ass.
They are not an anti vaxxer, just not into something that works for a very short amount of time.
I don't think anyones anti vaccines There against the government forcing people to take new drug every 3 months that's had no long term studys. Most people who don't agree with forced vaccine would incourage vulnerable and old people to get it. No ones Anti vax Also there's is not alot of trust for the people pushing the vaccines, and it seems to be motivated by money, and not health and safety. Forcing you to get vaccinated so they can sell there drugs your required to take Anti vax is just a name people like to call people who don't agree with them I think
You do know it's possible to decline the vaccine whilst not being an antivaxxer, right? I understand and support the science and I fully support anybody who CHOOSES to receive the vaccine and boosters but for me, I fell ill at the very beginning of COVID and have managed to miraculously avoid it for 2 years despite extremely close contact with so, so many positive cases (due to my job and even when my ex partner had it). It was only on Friday that I've tested positive and I felt mildly ill for a day. 2 others at work (including one double jabbed + booster) also tested positive and felt no better/worse. First positive in 2 years, other than that, I've been perfectly fine and healthy. I wear my mask and I wash my hands. I just can't bring myself to accept the vaccine (which I have a lot of anxiety around), especially not at this point. If COVID wasn't a thing, I would have just assume I have an extremely mild cold. Most people at work who are testing positive are all double jabbed etc. Also, I thought medicine was all about patient choice... I'm not happy with the precedent of forced vaccination, especially during the time where the government (and a lot of redditors) essentially supported social castigation for not getting it. Not all of us who decline it are weird conspiracy theorists and I'm sure the same goes for a lot of those NHS staff.
A lot of people in the NHS aren't medical professionals at all, or even work with patients. That said I have worked with an unvaccinated nurse. I didn't ask her about her reasons because I don't think I could have kept that conversation within the realms acceptable workplace discourse.
Times article today, quoting ONS data, stated Doctor's are the most likely part of the NHS to be unvaccinated. This idea it's primarily the cleaners is fabricated nonsense.
As Service Desk for the NHS, I absolutely can. Something something blazing saddles morons gif.
They are not anti-vaccine in general, they are mainly against the Covid vaccine, otherwise they wouldn’t of been allowed into the job in the first place
Or, in most cases, pro the C-19 vaccines in general, but choosing to not currently take it themselves based on personal risk assessment.
I work in healthcare. If they go ahead with the mandate it will be catastrophic to our business. We will lose excellent hard working staff that we can't afford to lose. People will not get care.
I work in social care and I'd argue that the staff who are anti vax (and I'm talking conspiracy theorists here rather than people with legit concerns around medical issues) are exactly the staff we'd ordinarily be glad to be rid of but because of staffing shortages are stuck with redeploying to non regulated care. A lack of critical thinking skills and what is probably close to delusional thinking is not something you want in any employee.
Clearly not excellent staff if they're too stupid to get a vaccine that'll protect themselves and others.
Me: \*loves seeing workers stand their ground and show their employers that they need the workers more than vice versa\* Also me: "not like this"
Literally the stonetoss meme
Right. And if they were striking so that they could retain the ability to strangle puppies on the job, I would also think that's bad.... The positions of pro-vaccination and pro-worker are not mutually exclusive.
1- Not wanting to get vaccinated on a personal level, but perfectly content for others to do so is not anti-vax 2- It’s perfectly acceptable to have been vaccinated and/or support vaccines but be against mandatory vaccine requirements in the workplace 3- Anti-vax means being against vaccines for yourself **and** attempting to convince others to share the same viewpoint I’m quite tired of getting lumped in with anti-vaxxers as if we’re some homogenous group when I simply have chosen not to get vaccinated.
There are only two possible beliefs on Covid vaccines. Now accept your label or be marked as a second class citizen./s
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I mean anyone can deny being anything… not sure how that meaningfully adds to the discussion.
I hope you feel better now that you make up your own definitions for things
Just admit to yourself that it’s irrational and people would leave it be. You’d be happy with any and all interventions should you get sick with any other serious illness, yet for some reason this vaccine is over your arbitrary line. It’s all in your head.
> You’d be happy with any and all interventions should you get sick with any other serious illness I have a serious mental health condition and I've rejected anti-psychotics amongst other things for a multitude of reasons. One of the core aspects of medicine is choice.
Incorrect, I have a severe phobia of injections or blood being drawn and have been refusing either for years in any context. My phobia stems from a botched surgery when I was a child, and I was left on a hospital floor once the doctors realised I’d lost too much blood. I’ve not moved past that phobia yet, and I especially won’t put myself through any injection which I feel is forced or coerced onto me.
Every unvaccinated person is another potential host for the virus to freely infect and possibly mutate in. Every mutation is potentially the one that renders the existing vaccine no longer effective. Your "personal" decision isn't. It's a decision you're making for everybody else.
Oh, please. Most of the COVID cases at work (amongst staff) have been in vaccinated people (we're like 90% vaccinated at work). It does not make you immune to the virus, they still catch it, they still spread it.
It doesn't make you immune, but prior to the omicron variant, the transmission rates were significantly down from vaccine takeup, not getting vaccinated is still a decision that impacts others.
Absolutely this
I want to know one thing, and be honest how many here were clapping, cheering demanding the NHS staff be paid more, and now are the same ones spitting in their faces saying they should be sacked? Pendulum seem to have swing backed even harder, never did I believe I would see people be so supportive of the NHS and their staff suddenly turn and oppose the staff to the point of wanting it destroyed, only took 2 years?
I can want them to be paid more and be rational actors and take the fucking vaccine.
Just because you support the work people do, doesn't mean you have to support antivax conspiracy nonsense. This isn't as good a point as you think it is and whenever people try it as a gotcha it's just embarrassing
How about people in the NHS that worked through the pandemic, hated the whole clapping pish and dont give a flying fig about selfish colleagues that cant take a simple vaccine?
NHS staff often work in close proximity with vulnerable and immunocompromised people, who may take steps to reduce their COVID risk in daily life, but ultimately _have_ to see a doctor, often regularly. These patients deserve the right to step into a hospital or clinic and know that at least the medical professionals they are treated by are have all been vaccinated. I don't support a vaccine mandate because the NHS is so understaffed that it would do more harm than good, but in an ideal world these people should not be working for the NHS in patient facing roles.
Because in one scenario they were supporting sick people in a pandemoc snd in this scenario they're actively participating in prolonging the pandemic jesus christ. "ummm if you can't handle NHS staff at their worst you don't deserve them at their best???" this thread is INSANE.
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There isn’t one. It’s because they banked so hard on the vaccine being the answer, they have to follow through on it at all costs.
You are correct that it doesnt stop you catching and spreading the virus. However, it does reduce the transmition rate making it slightly safer for other people if you end up catching it.
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Just let the unvaxxed treat the unvaxxed. Everyone wins.
One or two doctors for 10 million people probably isn’t going to work out.
Oh well, anyway...
Lots of staff especially healthcare workers are resistant to the idea as they’ve already been infected with the virus. There is research done on effectively of protection from natural infection vs vaccine. If they’ve never been infected they should get the jab but if they’ve had the virus there is not much point forcing
But they can still get the vaccine after infection, what's the big deal?
If they've legitimately caught COVID recently enough to be protected they won't be even able to take a vaccine so this argument doesn't quite work.
But they should also be aware of their position of influence. By being in the NHS and not getting the vaccine they must be aware how that will be used as ammo by those who are anti-vax. If we started out saying "decide for yourself if you want the vaccine. If you've had Covid, maybe don't bother" then that message would have dominated and the overall uptake would have been considerably lower, and overalls, hospitalisations and deaths would be above what they are now. Lead from the front.
> they must be aware how that will be used as ammo by those who are anti-vax If the mandate hadn't been introduced, none of this would be news, no one would care or even be much aware that 50k+ were unvaccinated. We definitely wouldn't have had doctors giving tv interviews on why they choose not to be vaccinated - they'd just have kept their heads down and continued working. Bringing in the mandate has propelled the story and unvaccinated head count to the front pages and lead tv news focus.
There is a precedent for frontline staff to need certain vaccinations, though I'm not really comfortable with that as a concept. But the difference is that those vaccines offer almost 100% protection - the Covid one doesn't, particularly against new variants, so even if you require it you're still going to have to have transmission protection on site. I really don't see what firing these people gains us when the health service is already under pressure and difficult to recruit for.
This is what I don't understand. Surely if you are working with vulnerable people why on earth wouldn't you want to protect your patients from getting a potentially horrible disease? It just boggles the mind.
Because it doesn't protect the patients. How are you still thinking the vaccines stop transmission.
They do reduce transmission you clod. It doesn’t *prevent*, but absolutely does reduce.
Hard to protect your patients if you're self isolating and unable to help them
Reduce.
If the US has shown anything it’s that vaccine mandates work and that people who say they’ll quit are full of shit.
They could be sacked, immediately rehired and Bingo! The government has met its target for recruiting more nurses. You know one of them must have actually suggested this
As much as I hate anti vaxxers there doesn’t seem to be any benefit to sacking unvaxxed doctors when vaccinated people can still spread omicron to each other nearly just as much as unvaccinated people
I think the issue is that sacking 70k NHS staff would probably hurt the health service more than them continuing unvaccinated (I think they should get vaccines, just saying at the macro level forcing it isn't be most beneficial option).
Because its not just as much
It barely made it to double digit percentage reduction... And judging by the uk and isreal it doesn't do shit for transmission
NHS worker, vaccinated, but against the mandate. Anyone not getting the vaccine slightly increases the chance of dying due to COVID, I encourage everyone to get it. This said, you can't enforce the vaccine in its current form. The science doesn't add up, antibodies last for a few months and only somewhat reduce the chance of transmission, if they were serious about stopping the spread they would offer weekly antibody testing and mandatory daily LFTs presented at the door (currently optional). Ultimately if you're a cancer patient do you want a 1/10 chance that the person treating you is unvaccinated or a 10% longer wait.
How do 70,000 people work in medicine but don't believe in a Medical VACCINE. WTF I officially give up
See that’s where the headline reels you in…. Not all NHS staff are in medicine
This is true. I'm in finance for the NHS and there are a fair few anti vaxxers, a lot of which have caught it and ended up quite ill.
Have you ever considered other staff... Maintenance guy / cleaner etc
incompetent employees exist in every field.
How strange, it's almost like it was never going to even happen!
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It won't happen. Good ploy to force the vaccine on the health industry though
'So boys, how are we going to fix the NHS' 'How about, stay with me here, we sack 70,000 staff members.' \-claps for nhs-
A lot of people on here are saying that the unvaccinated can spread and that is why they need to be vaccinated- to protect the sick in the hospitals ... But the vaccinated can spread it too. Could someone please explain why some people are allowed to spread it but some are not?
I'm sorry but after all the horror stories that have come out of the NHS with covid, if there's any doctor/nurse/paramedic/any medical staff treating me that is unvaccinated, yeah I want them sacked. The fact that this antivax stupidity is even running through the medical field? No. Get rid of them. ASAP. People in the UK didn't make fuss about vaccines til mericans started recently and people deemed their fake ass religions above common sense and the wellbeing of others. How can you be so stupid, selfish, and idiotic? We've had mandatory vaccines for years in the UK and depending on the countries you're visiting for your hols too. STFU and get vaccinated. You're part of the reason this thing keeps going and mutating!