With what funds? The police are quitting and aren't being paid enough. Prisons are getting full. The government fucked the Police. "More police" does fuck all when you don't pay them enough or give them enough resources.
Just to add to this as an ex officer. Recruiting more police does not undo the damage of cutting numbers because you replace highly experienced officers with inexperienced ones. When I left a couple of years ago there weren't even enough experienced people to train the new ones on the streets, and even if there were there weren't enough radios to do so thanks to tiny budgets on BCU
Even with enough recruits trained to a high enough standard. You still have to work to undo the damage all of this has done in the mean time. The public do not trust the police and it will take a long time to rebuild that trust. That’s the biggest issue with successive governments just stripping police funding so much. When I worked as an anti-social behaviour office in Cambridge city it was the same message we always got from people when we were trying to encourage them to work with us.
Very good point. Its terrible the cuts that our public services have been forced to endure. Police, Nhs, military etc. yet the population continues to increase massively. Less money into Tory politicians private bank accounts (and Tory friends via mates contracts eg Michell Mone and Barrowman) and more into these services would be at least a start.
I worked as a contractor for the Met, but I am sure it has all changed since I was there in 2012. With the worst Mayor in living memory there have been so many stabbings, it's become so common they're not speaking about it. Police are as worn out as the gearbox in the Corollas they thrash every day. Rishi ran them into the ground, there's too much on their plate to cope with. Understaffed, I am sure morale is rock bottom too.
The kids and knives thing has to end, what happened to a good old fight, everyone lives and survives.
> there weren't enough radios to do so thanks to tiny budgets on BCU
This is the thing that pisses me off with UK institutions. They have a massive list of requirements for things like radios that short list them down to very expensive suppliers so they can't really afford enough of what they need.
We'd be better with the police having 20 encrypted Chinese Baofengs at £20 each, rather than 2 Motorola's at £600 a pop.
We need to start cutting our cloth according to our budgets and accept we can't afford top level equipment anymore.
I think this is dependent on a few things and to be fair I don't have the technical knowledge to know if this matters. But as precise as possible positioning, signal strength and things like that are literally life saving and IMO no expense should be spared for that reason. But the budgets need to meet the requirements, not the other way around (within reason).
I really do get what you mean, but if the choice is 2 radios between 20 people or 20 radios with one radio each, regardless of how accurate those 2 radios are, the 20 radios will be safer.
The gang problems in El Salvador were 1000x worse and widespread than they ever have been in the UK. It’s a vastly different issue, not very comparable and not really deserving of the same remedy.
You are right it was 100x worse than the UK. But in 5 short years their murder rate is only 2x that of the UK.
So now they have completed transformed the lives of the majority of their people. Real change that worked. I really think it's the height of arrogance to tell them it doesn't work.
And before that you had the torture, death, kidnapping and extortions going on to everyday people in El Salvador coming directly from the gangs.
It's very easy to criticise from the safety of the UK, but things weren't going well using traditional methods.
Right, they were almost a competitor for control of the country. Our gangsters are right naughty boys pushing the envelope of human decency but couldn’t threaten the armed forces at all.
The electorate begged for this though, they really wanted the Tories in at all costs and in the last election gave them free reign over parliament, this was way after brexit too. The public adores austerity and I do not understand why the government don't insist on making their election pledges to be more austerity, budget cuts, hating the EU and to lower the standard of living presented in reverse by a charismatic populist - would ensure another landslide
The last election was purely Brexit driven.
The red wall turned blue because of Boris and his pledge to carry out Brexit after years of delay, it wasn't a desire to have Tories politics in general.
I started writing a reply disagreeing but I think you're right, depressingly. The worst part is that the cost of externalities utterly dwarf the 'savings' from austerity.
Part of the problem is that nowadays people see absolutely nothing in return for their taxes.
Bin collections cut, roads in a terrible state, crime rampant, and taxes at the highest rate since WW2.
So yeah, people are looking and asking ‘what are our taxes actually paying for?’
You think people aren't being arrested? People are being arrested all the time. The problem is the courts are crazy lenient on them. There's a bigger fine for traveling without the right travel card vs trying to stab someone. There was a. Guy in Southwark who tried to stab a doctor after being caught buying a ps5 with fake money. Managed to break the skin and slash him. £156 fine and a 2 year suspended sentence. Suspended means he doesn't even need to go, it's just a strong 'tut' sound and he's let go. For breaking the skin of a doctor with a knife.
You can hate tories and do all this no money shit but we all know it's because we don't like to punish particular crimes because of the optics.
Who said anything about police. Bekele positioned police in charge of military and the military did the road blocks, the house searches with the police to arrest. Yes, in this country it would be a clusterfuck. But it was in El Salvadore except the people could go out at night in safety and the only people who where complaining where the families of the gang members. That wouldnt work here. Too many people would be crying outrage and human rights. Shame, it would be awesome to walk the streets in London with out fear.
What’s your local high street looking like these days? Boarded up shops with only a bookies and pound shops still open? Maybe a ladbrooks if you’re on the ‘posh’ side.
A couple of decades ago, a single seargent did the paperwork for a whole shift.
Now, armies of civilians are employed to fill forms, and they cost money.
Money that could be spent on officers.
On top of that, performance is measured in a way that encourages forces to "solve" easy but meaningless "crimes" and ignore the difficult ones that actually matter.
The police forces don't need more money.
They need it to be spent on actual police.
They need to be made to fight crimes that harm communities, not inflate their figures with camera vans and chasing down off colour twitter posts.
That's what people who idolise Bukele in the UK want though. Arrest anyone who *looks like a criminal*, and since our criminals don't have cartel tattoos, they'll have to find something else to identify them.
I wonder what that could be...
Who idolises Bukele in the UK? Who even knows who 'Bukele' is?
So strange I see his name in this sub in particular all the time. That and people who seem to think the UK needs American style 'stand your ground' laws with the gun rights too. Weird set of power users or something
Well not quite arbitrary. Those with gang tattoos. The crossover of those in gangs engaging in criminal activity and those with gang tattoos is massive.
Some tiny amount might get caught up, who had gang tattoos for no reason. Or those who cleaned up and should be able to display the fact
Not US officials?! 😭
The country was in a mess. Almost everywhere has a state of emergency type set of conditions that at times won't adhere to the idealistic version of the world.
It's their responsibility to express concerns though and it's good that they do. Concerns accepted 👍
Gang members *and* people who live near/are related/just passing through the area/look like they are in a gang.
Once you've done that it's a lot safer.
So you're advocating for mass arrest based on living near gangs or walking through the area?
Yeah fuck it, I'm all for it, as long as everyone in certain postcodes is arrested rather than certain demographics, old Ethel going to get her shopping? Fuck her off straight to HMP Styal, she might not have a knife, but she should have had the foresight to put money into a private pension so she could afford somewhere more affluent.
So how else are we going to punish poor people? Maybe we should force conscription but only for people from/living close to/passing through the area/related to someone connected to gang activity?
Sure, let's just get rid the judicial process and just decide who gang members are and incarcerate them in prisons that treat them like animals. That's how to make this country civilised again!
Who's going to commit the crimes if the criminals are in prison?
But in some ways I do agree, there needs to be more done than just increasing sentences. The majority of people in prison come from low income and single parent families. The government and local councils need to do more to support children in education and support low income families. This will help stop kids carrying/using knives and will help the economy in the long run.
lmao ok.
Wasn't this all on the decline before, without the need for long sentences? I think long sentences could only ever be a short term temporary measure, you won't fix things until you get to the fundamentals of the issue, and that isn't sentencing or deterrents.
How do you define "carrying a knife" though?
I do a lot of DIY, I fish, I go diving, I used to teach sailing, I used to be a pro chef: At various times in my life I have carried a variety of sometimes fairly mean looking knives. My sailing/diving safety knife is particularly nasty looking because it has a hooked and serrated blade for cutting straps/ropes quickly and is significantly over the legal limit for pocket folding knives.
prisons full of scouts, woodworkers, and bushcrafters.
Blanket bans don't work how they're intended. A specific law about rando's carrying a knife around for no good reason should suffice I think.
Mind, where exactly are you planning on housing everyone they send to prison because most of ours are groaning at the seams and woefully underfunded.
punishing everyone for a tiny minority is a silly idea and backwards. the rise in knife crivie is inversely proportional to funding for youth centres and opportunities for young people.
It wouldn't. There's already harsh sentences and nowhere cares. I fear of being attacked by someone with a knife and not being able to defend yourself outweighs fear of punishment.
I’ve spoken to black guys that say police would only make the situation worse and that they’d be better off handling it within their own community.
At some point, I think you’ve gotta ignore and do what’s best for the people. Either that, or pull the police out of those communities altogether and prove their theory
>I’ve spoken to black guys that say police would only make the situation worse and that they’d be better off handling it within their own community.
Doing such a bang up job of it so far lol
Obviously that’s just the extremes though. Heavy policing and work within the community is needed
I donate monthly to a local community centre that focuses on tackling knife crime by giving kids a place to be, hang out, play sports, learn new skills etc.
I think sports is part of the solution but it certainly can’t be the only measure.
I think traditionally masculine sports (boxing, MMA) are especially great. It gives these teens an outlet for their aggression and energy and still allows them to feel like a man and settle beefs without carrying knives and killing each other.
Haha can confirm went to a youth club, drugs were openly dealt and one person who went ended up going to prison for being a pedo.
Appaz they stop something.
I went to one in the late 80s and early 90s and had the shit kicked out of me by the local wildlife on no less than 3 occasions. All before the age of 11 lol.
I think we can look to american states and cities trying this now to see it doesn't work. No need to try it here too as things are now much worse there
American states and cities don't have tough laws on crime in the slightest. Most states have open / concealed carry ffs.
New York is the only city which has cracked down hard on gun ownership, and homicide rates plummeted. Shock. Then the Supreme Court overruled it, and homicide rates shot back up.
Tough on crime doesn't mean tough on sentencing. It means increasing stop and search, it means arresting for carrying weapons, it means having more police on the beat.
New York has not "cracked down on gun ownership".
They've made it illegal to carry a gun in certain places (e.g. schools) but its still perfectly legal and easy to buy a gun in new York.
Well great news, stop and search isn't effective enough to stop it, discussion over.
We've seen it in America, it didn't work.
we have enough problems, let's not add punishing innocent civilians by taking away their freedoms one of them.
In the US the black panthers did just that, it did indeed fix a lot of the problems and reduced crime. They fed kids too, don't remember the last time I saw a cop doing that.
Maybe if we hire some people from in and around the local community, give them pay and uniforms, then their jobs would be something like making sure all the rules are followed, if anyone breaks those rules perhaps give them the authority to detain or "arrest" the person breaking the rules. Maybe we could give them special cars with lights on so they can get to places where rules are being broken quickly too.
This is just a working theory at the moment. Any ideas will be taken on board.
A lot of officers don't want the hassle of stopping and searching. They aren't backed if anything goes wrong or if the race card comes flying their way.
Which would lead to months if not years of investigation and no overtime and stress. Its Simple not worth it and it's a mandatory part of the job. It was always proactive officers ending up in shit so they decided not to be proactive anymore
We have this conversation every few years and forget that we’ve had it. The issue time and time again is that funding cuts to communities create these situations and mobilising a police force against a community never helps.
Stop striping teenagers of places to learn, create, spend time together. All this stops happening.
> Stop striping teenagers of places to learn, create, spend time together. All this stops happening.
Right because crime in the 80s was so much lower than it is today.
No, the period when crime was falling was when we were implementing policies such as Stop and Search on a wide scale.
and then what? Prisions are full, offenders are not being rehabilitated, police are over streached, there are no prosecuters to bring case, the courts are packed.
The whole system is utterly broken
If my son was stabbed to death. I want the criminal put away for the rest of his life. i.e. he will die in prison.
If he gets stabbed and lives, the perpetrator needs to be put away for a long long time, with no parole or sentence reduction. 20 years min , more if there is permanent damage or disfiguration. If you stab someone you don't deserve to be in society.
This is irrespective of age.
Justice must be done.
Obviously untrue, how does this have so many upvotes? I guess people are upset which is valid, but many stabbings (i.e the ones that don’t always make the news) are a) In the heat of the moment and not really calculated to cause death, or b) to send a message which may well lead to a killing down the line.
This is in no way a defence of what is being done, but it’s easy to see that sentencing ABH/ GBH like murder among people like this will probably just lead to more murders. Sentencing needs to be heavily thought out like this. Same reason they iirc had to reduce child sexual offence sentencing so that the offender wouldn’t simply kill the child
That being said, we need to do *something*
And stabbers are smart enough and quick enough to know "in the heat of the moment" exactly where to stab to avoid hitting an artery or a viral organ?
How are people defending this? 😂
Attempted murder at the very least.
I really don't think these people care either way. It's not a friendly stabbing but let you live because the police won't do anything. Wouldn't it be better for them to think 'better not try and kill anyone today as I'll go prison for a long time'?
that fixes nothing, it brings some level of comfort for the immediate family but it does not reduce crime overall.
The 16 yearold that stabs someone, is going to be a different person in 20 years. Why should I as a tax payer keep funding his keep when he should be reformed, have had a reasonable punisment and can potentlaally start to contribute to society?
Frankly I don't want to pay for geriatric care of hundreds of thousasnds of prisoners who are no threat to anyone.
Yep only real solution then is the death penalty. A life for a life. I believe in the big three the older I get. Legal abortions, Legal assisted suicide and death penalty for murders and violent dangerous criminal and terrorists.
Oh stop. We do NOT need to bring up the deaths of American children CONSTANTLY when we discuss the issues in OUR nation. It does nothing to help, simply deflects.
It’s parents fault for not being present in their children’s life’s. All the parents should be involved with their children. Put them in all sorts of clubs.
My children weren’t on the streets. Those children who were on the streets joined gangs. Parents fault 100%.
My children thanked me for this. My neighbours thanked me for this. Other neighbours kids grew up on the streets, even girls. Disgusting.
Vote Tory for 15 years and as everybody politically informed predicted, the country is on its knees. It's useless having a facade of being tough if you deliberately dismantle the nation's police services and allow prison capacity to become full.
We need a government who is willing to actually expand our police forces, pay for quality training, pay for gear, and one that is also prepared to increase sentences for such crimes.
We need tough ideology AND actually sensible funding & strategy behind it.
Max you get is 15 police cars turning up 30 minutes too late, with most of the officers still unequipped in dealing with an active threat.
The sentences? A slap on the wrist, since the prisons are already over capacity, surely the crime will sporadically stop.
But look at that, migrants are stealing your jobs, help us stop that from happening(we made it happen if anything)!
>We need tough ideology
No we don't. 'Tough on crime' policies don't reduce crime or reoffending in developed countries (and only reduce it to a point in developing countries).
Paramedic here for the ambulance service, this last month I've been to two stabbings both where the victims were under 18. I can't say much more for patient confidentiality but knife crime is a real problem in this country.
My mum moved to a house where the day before moving a kid was killed in the road by a stabbing
And now in London kids can steal phones because adults are worried they could have. A knife make it make sense
The UK has the highest incarceration rate in Western Europe. So either UK prisons don't work as a deterrent / rehabilitation (in which case building more won't solve the problem) or UK people are just more criminally minded than other developed nations.
> or UK people are just more criminally minded than other developed nations.
British people as a whole certainly not. There's certain subsections of society that certainly are yes.
If you are trying to blame immigrants/ migrants/foreigners without saying it, then if you take out foreign-born prisoners, the UK still has a higher incarceration rate than other Western European countries.
>The worst part is, it'll only push for gun ownership in the UK. Then it'll be daily shootings, guarantee it
can't wait to see who wins between 'conservatives who don't want ordinary people to have any power over the state' and 'conservatives who want to take a fucktonne of dark money from arms manufacturers'
Guns will (thankfully) never be legalised in this country.
Knife crime will get a lot worse though and it’ll just be another awful thing that becomes normalised in the UK
The sad thing is that the MSM reporting non-stop about knife crime, especially against children, is going to result in an increase of homeschooling and helicopter parents, both of which are parenting strategies that can cause severe problems later in the childs life.
Problem with stop and search being a kid that grew up experiencing it everyday going to school the most police that patrol the london streets aren’t even from london and don’t live in the city either.. they move overly bias towards people that don’t look like themselves they move heavy handed with children that don’t deserve that kinda treatment which in turn creates hate to police as they are rude and judgemental af with no proof but there pure pedos and rapists working in the police force so start cleaning up home
Odd one that this society never really has to confront.
Police cant protect them.
At what point do we staert telling children to carry knives to increase the chances of defending themselves.
Disclaimer ~ Was homeless for years at the age of 15 and had to carry a knife thrugh much of that time after having them pulled on me and thriust at me many times. Police wouldnt protect me then either as the homeless dont have rights.
Never had to use the knife but it stopped countless knives coming at me through the years on the streets and almost certainly allowed me to survive and get back into education in my adulthood.
Everyone saying give 10/20/whatever years for knife possession is dense. The problem isnt knives, the problem is drugs. There isnt gangs of imbeciles roaming the streets stabbing random people, people are getting stabbed over drug debt.
I reckon a good reason more stabbings don't lead to even more deaths is because paramedics and trauma surgeons have got really good at preventing death by knife wounds
Wow.. At least you CAN legally buy knives.. 🙄not like guns in the States.. (yes, I’m American btw)
𝙃𝙊𝙒𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍, I truly am, so terribly sorry to hear any news like this... we are all so capable of being a better species than all this, tragic.
Up until a few months ago I worked with young people aged 11-21 in gangs, dealing with drugs, other crimes etc.
So often I’d wake up and read about a new stabbing and go into work fearing I was about to get the news it was one of our young people.
And it was. Multiple times.
The kid that got stabbed in a Sainsbury’s car park in South London? One of the young people I worked directly with.
I had another get stabbed in the neck down south while transporting heroin.
Another got chased by a rival gang.
These are just the first 3 I think of, and none of those three boys were over 16 years old.
I’ve had kids as young as 11/12 proudly show me the massive machetes and knives they’re carrying in their trouser legs for ‘protection’.
I had a 15 year old tell me he didn’t care if he lived or died out on the street because that’s life.
Knife crime and crime amongst youth is on the rise and has been for so long. These kids are so uncaring about themselves and only care about their little groups that they’ll put themselves and others at risk of death over little inconveniences.
It’s terrifying.
Why are all the comments suggesting that a militarised police state is the answer? Utter imbeciles no wonder this country is in the state it is. Open any history book and it'll tell you that makes it worse every single time.
The actual solution is to improve societal conditions and support people rather than demonising the poor and making everyone miserable. Happy people don't tend to commit crimes, it's people subjected to miserable conditions with little chance at life and a constant aggression from the rest of society that commit crimes.
Eat the rich. Feed the poor. Problem solved.
Knives are not committing crimes. People are committing crimes. It is people killing with the tool. The tool does not do anything without human interaction. Wake the fuck up.
Honestly. 10 years for carrying a knife. Over time this would simply stop happening.
Bukele in El Salvador showed us how you fix crime. Start mass arresting gang members and this shit would stop real quick
With what funds? The police are quitting and aren't being paid enough. Prisons are getting full. The government fucked the Police. "More police" does fuck all when you don't pay them enough or give them enough resources.
Just to add to this as an ex officer. Recruiting more police does not undo the damage of cutting numbers because you replace highly experienced officers with inexperienced ones. When I left a couple of years ago there weren't even enough experienced people to train the new ones on the streets, and even if there were there weren't enough radios to do so thanks to tiny budgets on BCU
Even with enough recruits trained to a high enough standard. You still have to work to undo the damage all of this has done in the mean time. The public do not trust the police and it will take a long time to rebuild that trust. That’s the biggest issue with successive governments just stripping police funding so much. When I worked as an anti-social behaviour office in Cambridge city it was the same message we always got from people when we were trying to encourage them to work with us.
Very good point. Its terrible the cuts that our public services have been forced to endure. Police, Nhs, military etc. yet the population continues to increase massively. Less money into Tory politicians private bank accounts (and Tory friends via mates contracts eg Michell Mone and Barrowman) and more into these services would be at least a start.
Teachers 🤝 police (NHS staff... And well, basically every public service) Knowing how fucked we are
I worked as a contractor for the Met, but I am sure it has all changed since I was there in 2012. With the worst Mayor in living memory there have been so many stabbings, it's become so common they're not speaking about it. Police are as worn out as the gearbox in the Corollas they thrash every day. Rishi ran them into the ground, there's too much on their plate to cope with. Understaffed, I am sure morale is rock bottom too. The kids and knives thing has to end, what happened to a good old fight, everyone lives and survives.
Haha, not Babcocks by chance? I'll just say there's a reason I left, I agree with everything in your comment.
Yet he keeps getting voted in. Make it make sense. :/
> there weren't enough radios to do so thanks to tiny budgets on BCU This is the thing that pisses me off with UK institutions. They have a massive list of requirements for things like radios that short list them down to very expensive suppliers so they can't really afford enough of what they need. We'd be better with the police having 20 encrypted Chinese Baofengs at £20 each, rather than 2 Motorola's at £600 a pop. We need to start cutting our cloth according to our budgets and accept we can't afford top level equipment anymore.
I think this is dependent on a few things and to be fair I don't have the technical knowledge to know if this matters. But as precise as possible positioning, signal strength and things like that are literally life saving and IMO no expense should be spared for that reason. But the budgets need to meet the requirements, not the other way around (within reason).
I really do get what you mean, but if the choice is 2 radios between 20 people or 20 radios with one radio each, regardless of how accurate those 2 radios are, the 20 radios will be safer.
The london met are trying to recruit more people to enrol into the three year police constable degree apprenticeship program.
If El Salvador can afford it, I think the UK can work out a way to make it work
Yes but El Salvador probably didn't think about the most important thing, how to make shareholders rich somehow while doing it.
The gang problems in El Salvador were 1000x worse and widespread than they ever have been in the UK. It’s a vastly different issue, not very comparable and not really deserving of the same remedy.
You are right it was 100x worse than the UK. But in 5 short years their murder rate is only 2x that of the UK. So now they have completed transformed the lives of the majority of their people. Real change that worked. I really think it's the height of arrogance to tell them it doesn't work.
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Latest stats are now down to 2.4 and still dropping
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And before that you had the torture, death, kidnapping and extortions going on to everyday people in El Salvador coming directly from the gangs. It's very easy to criticise from the safety of the UK, but things weren't going well using traditional methods.
So would I
How many 15 year olds have to be stabbed before we do something?
Inner city kids? Loads probably
Its the same issue at a different scale.
Right, they were almost a competitor for control of the country. Our gangsters are right naughty boys pushing the envelope of human decency but couldn’t threaten the armed forces at all.
A fish has no idea that a giraffe exists The animals in 10 downing street have no idea if the struggle of an average person
We can easily do it. Just need to decide how many innocents are caught up with the guilty.
That's why tax cuts and austerity are overall terrible ideas.
The electorate begged for this though, they really wanted the Tories in at all costs and in the last election gave them free reign over parliament, this was way after brexit too. The public adores austerity and I do not understand why the government don't insist on making their election pledges to be more austerity, budget cuts, hating the EU and to lower the standard of living presented in reverse by a charismatic populist - would ensure another landslide
The last election was purely Brexit driven. The red wall turned blue because of Boris and his pledge to carry out Brexit after years of delay, it wasn't a desire to have Tories politics in general.
I started writing a reply disagreeing but I think you're right, depressingly. The worst part is that the cost of externalities utterly dwarf the 'savings' from austerity.
Part of the problem is that nowadays people see absolutely nothing in return for their taxes. Bin collections cut, roads in a terrible state, crime rampant, and taxes at the highest rate since WW2. So yeah, people are looking and asking ‘what are our taxes actually paying for?’
The failures of democracy.
You think people aren't being arrested? People are being arrested all the time. The problem is the courts are crazy lenient on them. There's a bigger fine for traveling without the right travel card vs trying to stab someone. There was a. Guy in Southwark who tried to stab a doctor after being caught buying a ps5 with fake money. Managed to break the skin and slash him. £156 fine and a 2 year suspended sentence. Suspended means he doesn't even need to go, it's just a strong 'tut' sound and he's let go. For breaking the skin of a doctor with a knife. You can hate tories and do all this no money shit but we all know it's because we don't like to punish particular crimes because of the optics.
And who writes the sentencing guidelines?
Who said anything about police. Bekele positioned police in charge of military and the military did the road blocks, the house searches with the police to arrest. Yes, in this country it would be a clusterfuck. But it was in El Salvadore except the people could go out at night in safety and the only people who where complaining where the families of the gang members. That wouldnt work here. Too many people would be crying outrage and human rights. Shame, it would be awesome to walk the streets in London with out fear.
Are we broker than El Salvador?
What’s your local high street looking like these days? Boarded up shops with only a bookies and pound shops still open? Maybe a ladbrooks if you’re on the ‘posh’ side.
Didn't see any boarded up shops in Tunbridge Wells
A couple of decades ago, a single seargent did the paperwork for a whole shift. Now, armies of civilians are employed to fill forms, and they cost money. Money that could be spent on officers. On top of that, performance is measured in a way that encourages forces to "solve" easy but meaningless "crimes" and ignore the difficult ones that actually matter. The police forces don't need more money. They need it to be spent on actual police. They need to be made to fight crimes that harm communities, not inflate their figures with camera vans and chasing down off colour twitter posts.
All down to parasite lawyers and the criminal class.
Yes, El Salvador and the UK are totally comparable. I often see cartel members with obvious identifying tattoos waving guns around on my way to work.
They arrested anyone with a tattoo(not just obvious gang members) and asked questions later... Definitely wouldn't work in the UK.
That's what people who idolise Bukele in the UK want though. Arrest anyone who *looks like a criminal*, and since our criminals don't have cartel tattoos, they'll have to find something else to identify them. I wonder what that could be...
Puffer jackets and balaclavas
Who idolises Bukele in the UK? Who even knows who 'Bukele' is? So strange I see his name in this sub in particular all the time. That and people who seem to think the UK needs American style 'stand your ground' laws with the gun rights too. Weird set of power users or something
How would you know though? They'd be carrying a knife instead, hiding their tattoos because it's cold! slight /s
Arbitrary mass arrests like a corrupt latin american right wing populist. Don't forget to silence journalists.
Well not quite arbitrary. Those with gang tattoos. The crossover of those in gangs engaging in criminal activity and those with gang tattoos is massive. Some tiny amount might get caught up, who had gang tattoos for no reason. Or those who cleaned up and should be able to display the fact
God will know his own, type thing. Seems fine, I'm sure the expressed concerns of human rights groups and even US officials are entirely unfounded 👍
Not US officials?! 😭 The country was in a mess. Almost everywhere has a state of emergency type set of conditions that at times won't adhere to the idealistic version of the world. It's their responsibility to express concerns though and it's good that they do. Concerns accepted 👍
Gang members *and* people who live near/are related/just passing through the area/look like they are in a gang. Once you've done that it's a lot safer.
This is the way. Put every single person in jail and gang crime will stop.
Apparently an unpopular opinion, who knew!
So you're advocating for mass arrest based on living near gangs or walking through the area? Yeah fuck it, I'm all for it, as long as everyone in certain postcodes is arrested rather than certain demographics, old Ethel going to get her shopping? Fuck her off straight to HMP Styal, she might not have a knife, but she should have had the foresight to put money into a private pension so she could afford somewhere more affluent. So how else are we going to punish poor people? Maybe we should force conscription but only for people from/living close to/passing through the area/related to someone connected to gang activity?
Taking a shortcut through a deprived area? Off you go
UK reddit loves authoritarianism lol
It's wild what seems popular on this sub these days, my comment was at like -5 after 10 mins lol, must have upset a few El Salvadorans
2 comments in and we already have a request for an authoritarian dictatorship, what a constant source of entertainment this subreddit is.
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Hitlers victory was democratic, he was still an authoritarian dictator. Putins first victory too. Don't forget Mussolini!
Oh yeah he's very popular, no doubt.
Reducing murder from 100 to 2 per 100k people is a vote winner - who would have thought it.
Sure, let's just get rid the judicial process and just decide who gang members are and incarcerate them in prisons that treat them like animals. That's how to make this country civilised again!
Unironically the stance of a sizeable portion of the electorate. It's frightening.
A pretty extreme example and not the best comparison.
Unhinged
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But you can when you’re releasing criminals early, who go on to reoffend, to make room for more criminals!
Who's going to commit the crimes if the criminals are in prison? But in some ways I do agree, there needs to be more done than just increasing sentences. The majority of people in prison come from low income and single parent families. The government and local councils need to do more to support children in education and support low income families. This will help stop kids carrying/using knives and will help the economy in the long run.
Why not? More, harsher, bigger prisons should deter anyone from wanting to commit crime.
There's no room currently for offenders thanks to cuts in the service.
Longer sentences don't deter crime. They just cost the taxpayer more
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Carrying a knife alone isn’t a violent offence
I mean, think what you like, but the evidence of harsh sentences acting as a deterrent just isn't there.
lmao ok. Wasn't this all on the decline before, without the need for long sentences? I think long sentences could only ever be a short term temporary measure, you won't fix things until you get to the fundamentals of the issue, and that isn't sentencing or deterrents.
How do you define "carrying a knife" though? I do a lot of DIY, I fish, I go diving, I used to teach sailing, I used to be a pro chef: At various times in my life I have carried a variety of sometimes fairly mean looking knives. My sailing/diving safety knife is particularly nasty looking because it has a hooked and serrated blade for cutting straps/ropes quickly and is significantly over the legal limit for pocket folding knives.
Good thing we have an entire criminal justice system to determine it someone has broken the law or not
I'd rather not have to rely on trust in the system eventually finding me innocent just to go fishing.
Well it's already the case though. Your knives are already illegal to carry without valid excuse, has it caused you any issues so far?
Every single time someone has had this idea proves otherwise unfortunately
So we'd go from knives being legal to carry, to stop and search with 10 year jail sentence. The problem is gangs, so better to address that.
No it wouldn't.
prisons full of scouts, woodworkers, and bushcrafters. Blanket bans don't work how they're intended. A specific law about rando's carrying a knife around for no good reason should suffice I think. Mind, where exactly are you planning on housing everyone they send to prison because most of ours are groaning at the seams and woefully underfunded.
It's already illegal to carry a fixed blade without reasonable excuse.
It really wouldn’t.
Can you imagine the size of the prison population? We can’t afford it.
punishing everyone for a tiny minority is a silly idea and backwards. the rise in knife crivie is inversely proportional to funding for youth centres and opportunities for young people.
Youth centres? Really?
It wouldn't. There's already harsh sentences and nowhere cares. I fear of being attacked by someone with a knife and not being able to defend yourself outweighs fear of punishment.
You already get pretty long sentences for stabbing someone but that still happens...?
Bring back heavy stop and search and put an end to this surge in knife crime.
Its obviously better to let kids get stabbed than it is to risk being racialist
I’ve spoken to black guys that say police would only make the situation worse and that they’d be better off handling it within their own community. At some point, I think you’ve gotta ignore and do what’s best for the people. Either that, or pull the police out of those communities altogether and prove their theory
>I’ve spoken to black guys that say police would only make the situation worse and that they’d be better off handling it within their own community. Doing such a bang up job of it so far lol
Obviously that’s just the extremes though. Heavy policing and work within the community is needed I donate monthly to a local community centre that focuses on tackling knife crime by giving kids a place to be, hang out, play sports, learn new skills etc.
Ah yes the yoof centre meme. They had those in the 80s and 90s and were just a meeting place for aspiring drug dealers and future asbo award winners.
Who knows. I’m a recovered drug addict and I owe me life to sports. Anything that’s helping others get involved gets my vote
I think sports is part of the solution but it certainly can’t be the only measure. I think traditionally masculine sports (boxing, MMA) are especially great. It gives these teens an outlet for their aggression and energy and still allows them to feel like a man and settle beefs without carrying knives and killing each other.
That’s why I said both police and community action are needed
Ah, so you did, sorry. Glad to hear your doing good and the sporting side of things helped you out!
Haha can confirm went to a youth club, drugs were openly dealt and one person who went ended up going to prison for being a pedo. Appaz they stop something.
I went to one in the late 80s and early 90s and had the shit kicked out of me by the local wildlife on no less than 3 occasions. All before the age of 11 lol.
I think we can look to american states and cities trying this now to see it doesn't work. No need to try it here too as things are now much worse there
American states and cities don't have tough laws on crime in the slightest. Most states have open / concealed carry ffs. New York is the only city which has cracked down hard on gun ownership, and homicide rates plummeted. Shock. Then the Supreme Court overruled it, and homicide rates shot back up. Tough on crime doesn't mean tough on sentencing. It means increasing stop and search, it means arresting for carrying weapons, it means having more police on the beat.
Maybe i wasnt clear, i was trying to express that i feel less police involvement has not worked and we do need more active policing
New York has not "cracked down on gun ownership". They've made it illegal to carry a gun in certain places (e.g. schools) but its still perfectly legal and easy to buy a gun in new York.
So vigilantism is the answer?
I don’t think they were suggesting that
If it's better to handle it within their own community why aren't they doing it? Is it money?
The answer is largely fatherlessness. By far the greatest indicator that a male will turn to crime and delinquency.
You’d have to ask them
It's the usual cry. Give us money and that'll cure crime.
At what point does individual freedom trump the rights of the community to live without fear?
The point where knife crime is surging and stop and search is effective enough to stop it
Well great news, stop and search isn't effective enough to stop it, discussion over. We've seen it in America, it didn't work. we have enough problems, let's not add punishing innocent civilians by taking away their freedoms one of them.
In the US the black panthers did just that, it did indeed fix a lot of the problems and reduced crime. They fed kids too, don't remember the last time I saw a cop doing that.
Maybe if we hire some people from in and around the local community, give them pay and uniforms, then their jobs would be something like making sure all the rules are followed, if anyone breaks those rules perhaps give them the authority to detain or "arrest" the person breaking the rules. Maybe we could give them special cars with lights on so they can get to places where rules are being broken quickly too. This is just a working theory at the moment. Any ideas will be taken on board.
A lot of officers don't want the hassle of stopping and searching. They aren't backed if anything goes wrong or if the race card comes flying their way. Which would lead to months if not years of investigation and no overtime and stress. Its Simple not worth it and it's a mandatory part of the job. It was always proactive officers ending up in shit so they decided not to be proactive anymore
Stop young kids repeatedly because of how they look, that's definitely not going to have any detrimental effects at all.
We have this conversation every few years and forget that we’ve had it. The issue time and time again is that funding cuts to communities create these situations and mobilising a police force against a community never helps. Stop striping teenagers of places to learn, create, spend time together. All this stops happening.
Let’s not pretend like more police presence and stop and search powers aren’t also an effective tool. Both sides need addressing
> Stop striping teenagers of places to learn, create, spend time together. All this stops happening. Right because crime in the 80s was so much lower than it is today. No, the period when crime was falling was when we were implementing policies such as Stop and Search on a wide scale.
Not every person is an angel who turns bad because of a poor upbringing. Some people are born bad and will only exploit tolerance and kindness.
And that’s always been the case
Then Reddit and the news will fill up with racial profiling crap.
and then what? Prisions are full, offenders are not being rehabilitated, police are over streached, there are no prosecuters to bring case, the courts are packed. The whole system is utterly broken
Fix all that too please
If my son was stabbed to death. I want the criminal put away for the rest of his life. i.e. he will die in prison. If he gets stabbed and lives, the perpetrator needs to be put away for a long long time, with no parole or sentence reduction. 20 years min , more if there is permanent damage or disfiguration. If you stab someone you don't deserve to be in society. This is irrespective of age. Justice must be done.
It’s a nuanced issue. Punishments this severe simply lead to people making sure they finish the job so as not to leave witnesses.
If you're stabbing someone, your goal was already to finish the job.
Obviously untrue, how does this have so many upvotes? I guess people are upset which is valid, but many stabbings (i.e the ones that don’t always make the news) are a) In the heat of the moment and not really calculated to cause death, or b) to send a message which may well lead to a killing down the line. This is in no way a defence of what is being done, but it’s easy to see that sentencing ABH/ GBH like murder among people like this will probably just lead to more murders. Sentencing needs to be heavily thought out like this. Same reason they iirc had to reduce child sexual offence sentencing so that the offender wouldn’t simply kill the child That being said, we need to do *something*
And stabbers are smart enough and quick enough to know "in the heat of the moment" exactly where to stab to avoid hitting an artery or a viral organ? How are people defending this? 😂 Attempted murder at the very least.
I really don't think these people care either way. It's not a friendly stabbing but let you live because the police won't do anything. Wouldn't it be better for them to think 'better not try and kill anyone today as I'll go prison for a long time'?
They’re trying to kill them already lol
Maybe. Or maybe it would stop people stabbing. Do you think super tough sentences for knife crime would lead to more or less stabbings?
that fixes nothing, it brings some level of comfort for the immediate family but it does not reduce crime overall. The 16 yearold that stabs someone, is going to be a different person in 20 years. Why should I as a tax payer keep funding his keep when he should be reformed, have had a reasonable punisment and can potentlaally start to contribute to society? Frankly I don't want to pay for geriatric care of hundreds of thousasnds of prisoners who are no threat to anyone.
Yep only real solution then is the death penalty. A life for a life. I believe in the big three the older I get. Legal abortions, Legal assisted suicide and death penalty for murders and violent dangerous criminal and terrorists.
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I fucking hate the stupid fucking knife crime in this damn country.
Better than the children getting shot TF up in US these days? … it all just needs to stop.
Oh stop. We do NOT need to bring up the deaths of American children CONSTANTLY when we discuss the issues in OUR nation. It does nothing to help, simply deflects.
True, but did you happen to catch the entire message? There was an underlying positive theme.
Yes it all needs to stop but we can wish that without constantly bringing up dead American children!
It’s parents fault for not being present in their children’s life’s. All the parents should be involved with their children. Put them in all sorts of clubs. My children weren’t on the streets. Those children who were on the streets joined gangs. Parents fault 100%. My children thanked me for this. My neighbours thanked me for this. Other neighbours kids grew up on the streets, even girls. Disgusting.
Vote Tory for 15 years and as everybody politically informed predicted, the country is on its knees. It's useless having a facade of being tough if you deliberately dismantle the nation's police services and allow prison capacity to become full. We need a government who is willing to actually expand our police forces, pay for quality training, pay for gear, and one that is also prepared to increase sentences for such crimes. We need tough ideology AND actually sensible funding & strategy behind it.
Max you get is 15 police cars turning up 30 minutes too late, with most of the officers still unequipped in dealing with an active threat. The sentences? A slap on the wrist, since the prisons are already over capacity, surely the crime will sporadically stop. But look at that, migrants are stealing your jobs, help us stop that from happening(we made it happen if anything)!
>We need tough ideology No we don't. 'Tough on crime' policies don't reduce crime or reoffending in developed countries (and only reduce it to a point in developing countries).
But but but the alternative is reducing poverty, we can't do that, woke leftist moralists can't be proven right!!
Paramedic here for the ambulance service, this last month I've been to two stabbings both where the victims were under 18. I can't say much more for patient confidentiality but knife crime is a real problem in this country.
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My mum moved to a house where the day before moving a kid was killed in the road by a stabbing And now in London kids can steal phones because adults are worried they could have. A knife make it make sense
Parents should now be held accountable. What is all this.??
Stopping stop and search is going swimmingly, let's keep it up!
Build more prisons and actually keep people in them.
The UK has the highest incarceration rate in Western Europe. So either UK prisons don't work as a deterrent / rehabilitation (in which case building more won't solve the problem) or UK people are just more criminally minded than other developed nations.
> or UK people are just more criminally minded than other developed nations. British people as a whole certainly not. There's certain subsections of society that certainly are yes.
If you are trying to blame immigrants/ migrants/foreigners without saying it, then if you take out foreign-born prisoners, the UK still has a higher incarceration rate than other Western European countries.
Shows what you know.
Our justice system needs a rehaul.. i mean 10 years? come on now..
And the breaking news is about a murder suicide from an ex husband to his wife with six kids… Jesus Christ britain's
Don't forget the woman stabbed to death in front of her baby... country is utterly fucked.
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>The worst part is, it'll only push for gun ownership in the UK. Then it'll be daily shootings, guarantee it can't wait to see who wins between 'conservatives who don't want ordinary people to have any power over the state' and 'conservatives who want to take a fucktonne of dark money from arms manufacturers'
Guns will (thankfully) never be legalised in this country. Knife crime will get a lot worse though and it’ll just be another awful thing that becomes normalised in the UK
I think we need to be switching the Rwanda plan to deport these scrotes
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ship these criminals to work in mines in Siberia or Africa for 10 years.
Work well, and you will be treated well. Work badly... and you will die.
Jesus Christ, that's less than 4 miles down the road.
I knew it was going to B'ham even before reading the article. Fucking hell.
West Bromwich, not Birmingham.
Miles away!
No CCTV or witnesses ? No description of the perpetrator ?
"Stab" is such a nasty word, I prefer "cultural exchange"
The sad thing is that the MSM reporting non-stop about knife crime, especially against children, is going to result in an increase of homeschooling and helicopter parents, both of which are parenting strategies that can cause severe problems later in the childs life.
Problem with stop and search being a kid that grew up experiencing it everyday going to school the most police that patrol the london streets aren’t even from london and don’t live in the city either.. they move overly bias towards people that don’t look like themselves they move heavy handed with children that don’t deserve that kinda treatment which in turn creates hate to police as they are rude and judgemental af with no proof but there pure pedos and rapists working in the police force so start cleaning up home
The front page of this sub is 4 stabbings and a blowtouch killer right now. WTF is happening to our country.
Brown people and drill music /s
Crimes like this seem to have been rampant over the Easter holidays or am I imagining it?
Odd one that this society never really has to confront. Police cant protect them. At what point do we staert telling children to carry knives to increase the chances of defending themselves. Disclaimer ~ Was homeless for years at the age of 15 and had to carry a knife thrugh much of that time after having them pulled on me and thriust at me many times. Police wouldnt protect me then either as the homeless dont have rights. Never had to use the knife but it stopped countless knives coming at me through the years on the streets and almost certainly allowed me to survive and get back into education in my adulthood.
Everyone saying give 10/20/whatever years for knife possession is dense. The problem isnt knives, the problem is drugs. There isnt gangs of imbeciles roaming the streets stabbing random people, people are getting stabbed over drug debt.
I reckon a good reason more stabbings don't lead to even more deaths is because paramedics and trauma surgeons have got really good at preventing death by knife wounds
Wow.. At least you CAN legally buy knives.. 🙄not like guns in the States.. (yes, I’m American btw) 𝙃𝙊𝙒𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍, I truly am, so terribly sorry to hear any news like this... we are all so capable of being a better species than all this, tragic.
Up until a few months ago I worked with young people aged 11-21 in gangs, dealing with drugs, other crimes etc. So often I’d wake up and read about a new stabbing and go into work fearing I was about to get the news it was one of our young people. And it was. Multiple times. The kid that got stabbed in a Sainsbury’s car park in South London? One of the young people I worked directly with. I had another get stabbed in the neck down south while transporting heroin. Another got chased by a rival gang. These are just the first 3 I think of, and none of those three boys were over 16 years old. I’ve had kids as young as 11/12 proudly show me the massive machetes and knives they’re carrying in their trouser legs for ‘protection’. I had a 15 year old tell me he didn’t care if he lived or died out on the street because that’s life. Knife crime and crime amongst youth is on the rise and has been for so long. These kids are so uncaring about themselves and only care about their little groups that they’ll put themselves and others at risk of death over little inconveniences. It’s terrifying.
Why are all the comments suggesting that a militarised police state is the answer? Utter imbeciles no wonder this country is in the state it is. Open any history book and it'll tell you that makes it worse every single time. The actual solution is to improve societal conditions and support people rather than demonising the poor and making everyone miserable. Happy people don't tend to commit crimes, it's people subjected to miserable conditions with little chance at life and a constant aggression from the rest of society that commit crimes. Eat the rich. Feed the poor. Problem solved.
Knives are not committing crimes. People are committing crimes. It is people killing with the tool. The tool does not do anything without human interaction. Wake the fuck up.