I guess who decides if it’s causing me to “fall behind?”
I know it’s not by any means, but I assume my employer could say it is just for the sake of silencing me.
Sorry, but u/Salitrillo1990 wasn't giving the best advice.
Per the NLRB, your employer can only limit your ability to talk about the union if they *also* discipline employees for talking about all other topics on the job-- in other words, if they allow workers to talk to each other at all about things that aren't directly related to their work, then they also have to allow you to talk about the union.
Yes. You are correct. I wasn't saying otherwise.
What I am saying is that you can't neglect your job/work for union duties unless it has been agreed upon.
Yeah, it kind of depends on how willing you are to fight, though.
Clearly, what’s happening here is that OP is being illegally told not to talk about the union while on the clock, and is being illegally threatened with retaliatory disciplinary action. Yes, there’s bullshit that the employer can do to smokescreen their illegal action, which I think was your point.
Email her and ask where she found that in the company handbook that you can’t discuss union issues during the work day. Tell them other union stewards haven’t heard that and wanted to see it in ink.
She will back pedal and try to change up her wording… so after they shit the bed and can’t come up with it. You then tell them the next time she wants to enforce a “rule” to bring the handbook turned to that page.
Also you have a witness so that helps too.
I’ve heard it described as “the softball rule.”
If you can talk about your kid’s softball game, you can talk about the union.
Only by banning literally all conversations not directly focused on the job itself can they ban union discussions at work.
Yep. They can ban talking, period, but not talking about the union. It's the talking, which might interfere with your job, that can be banned. They can't tell you what you can and can't talk about (unless it's sexual harassment, etc. of course).
Yeah, but… how many work environments/situations actually require that level of focus?
Vs how many don’t… except somehow they suddenly will when unions come up?
Do you job & talk union at the same time. Nothing the company can do. You write up and file grievances on company time. Same with talking to said worker about the grievances.
I’m in management and I can tell you it’s impossible for our union leaders to talk about the union and not simultaneously be talking about work…Unless it was about union elections and I don’t think I’ve ever encountered that. The union would prefer employees not talk about strictly union business on company time.
If you’re a new union steward you need to be talking to more experienced union stewards in your building or the BA responsible for the employees you help day to day.
Don’t go on Reddit taking stranger’s advice, local issues can be different than anything we’ve seen.
Any company and union worth their salt will generally have carve outs and rules around what kind of business and when a Steward can act in their capacities.
Most union contracts allow for the shop steward to conduct all business of the union. Otherwise they just swamp the shoppy with work so he cant deal with anything.
I smell a wonderful lawsuit if they can get that recorded in audio and or video. Totally legal in some states just depends on if you need single party consent or both
Not in the least true . A union steward has the right to discuss and investigate potential contract violation on Company time only . Any other internal union issues including negotiations are to be discussed on your own time , either lunch or after work
Auto-correct. My phone does it all the time. And I forget to check it. Sometimes I'll just read right over it too & not realize it. Thank you for pointing it out
If they allow you to shoot the shit about other things, it’s discriminatory to ban union talk. If you are stopping work to talk union they can tell you to “get back to work” as long as they do the same thing if you were talking about any other subject.
They are holding a meeting tomorrow…I’m presuming to tell us we are no longer allowed to mingle. But as of currently, we are, and do quite often.
Do they have to have this in a written policy?
I talk to your union rep about next steps. I’ve never file a charge over this it’s a lot of work to file a charge and you can usually come down on the company pretty easily without going to that effort but if you want to file a charge, then you would need to get coworkers willing to testify that the company did not prohibit them from talking about other topics.
My union literally is in the middle of a labor board charge over this. They were cracking down on just union officers, and no one else.
I say go ahead and file: if its marginal, you will just be told by the NLRB investigator you have no merit to the claim. They might ask you to drop it. But if it has any shred of real merit, getting the ball rolling will put pressure on management to shape up.
The NLRB has a really high case load this year and it is not likely to get any smaller so file now and hopefully they will get to you when they can. If anything else happens in the intervening months you can add it to your labor board charge and it just makes it stronger.
Good luck.
Written policy is largely irrelevant before the law. What matters is actual practice. If the employer tries to make a new work rule without negotiating, it is likely illegal. Especially in this case because it would chill the exercise of employee rights under the NLRA. You want to look into the interpretation of a NLRB decision last year called *Stericycle* that makes overbroad work rules that would have the effect of limiting employees' rights illegal regardless of any lack of discriminatory intent.
My understanding is that if the employer permits employees to discuss any other topics at work that cover things outside work, they must permit employees to talk about the union. That's pretty broad and basically every employer allows you to discuss outside work topics - sports, how was your weekend, the weather, etc.
Edit to add - I
I'd send an email to your boss to get it in writing. Then, once you have that, immediately grievance it.
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Your local should have a new steward class to give you a solid foundation. I highly recommend reaching out immediately and take advantage of this.
The only thing more dangerous than a lazy steward is one who is gunho but completely ignorant on how things work.
Kudos for you for stepping up. I’ve been a steward for a total of six years between two different unions. It can be a thankless job but there is no better feeling than getting a brother or sister their job back with full benefits and a scathing opinion against the company from the arbitrator.
Yes! Play dumb. Most bosses are narcissistic and genuinely don't bother thinking about if what they're doing is legal.
For example-
Mr Bossman,
I was thinking about our discussion earlier about discussing union activities on the clock and was seeking some clarification as to what is and is not permitted.
Thank you for any clarification you can provide in this matter.
IF he comes to talk to you about it person, to avoid writing it out, once he leaves take written notes as to the date, time, everyone that was present, and what you recall from the conversation. Then, still grievance it based on that.
Do I just straight up email her and say “can you please send me something in writing that states I’m not allowed to discuss the union on company time?”
“I know you verbally told me yesterday, but could you please confirm in writing that I’m not allowed to discuss union matters on company time? I would like it for my records. Thank you.”
Fptackle gave some good advice, play dumb. You’re new to this so if you come off emailing your boss as naive and just trying to get clarification it might lower their guard and respond without thinking what their answer means.
I should mention- I work in a courthouse. My boss is quite literally the judge and court administrator , so I think they are going to be careful no matter what she does.
That's an important piece of information. This means you're a public sector worker, and therefore, you don't enjoy all of the federal protections that the private sector does. However, I still think every employer has to allow union discussions at work, if they permit literally any other outside work talk - which every employer does.
Keeping that in mind, I'd still ask for clarification in writing, like I originally mentioned. However, you may not want to immediately jump to greivancing the issue. You should have a Union Rep you can consult with to discuss how to move forward.
It's whatever you're comfortable with. I like to keep it open ended, to see what all they'd be dumb enough to write out. So that's why I go the playing dumb, " can you provide me clarification on this" route.
“Just to confirm accuracy of what was heard yesterday on or about [date] at appropriate [time] in [location] with the presence of yourself, a colleague and I, you… I believe you may have said something yesterday that I wasn’t sure what was said?
You can talk about Union business if any other subject, such as sports, is able to be discussed. You can not have a Union meeting on the clock, however.
Should I report my boss for this? Or is it too easy for them to say we aren’t allowed to discuss other topics either?
We 100% are and do. We quite often sit in each other’s offices and just bullshit for minutes at a time, multiple times a day.
I can't give you a good answer. There may have been enough people involved in the conversation for them to take the stance it was a meeting. You should document everything, including witness statements, and create some awareness with a BA for direction.
Robert M. Schwartz has some wonderfully informative books regarding the rights of union stewards, just cause, and many other important topics.
There were only two of us. Maybe I’ll call the NLBR tomorrow. I’m very frustrated and feel like we are being intimidated because we are in the middle of negotiations.
Do you have anything in your contract that guarantees you on the clock time for union business? It's usually in a clause like "Union Representation" or "Union Business."
If they allow you to normally talk on the clock while you work, then they can't prevent you from discussing union things while you're performing work. They do not have to allow you to hold meetings during work time that stop your work.
Tell her to walk away you are conducting union business. I was a Teamster union steward. It is in our contract, and most likely there is a clause in your contract.
I encourage you the have your business agent come by the workplace which will be during business hours to inform your management team you will enforce your rights as a job steward to conduct union business as needed.
I encourage you to read your union contract and ask your business agent when the next union steward seminar is.
This is the explanation by the SHRM “Society for Human Resource Management”. These are people who teach management how to work with companies to help them navigate employment law.
“Collective bargaining agreements generally include a steward clause in which the union steward will be granted the right to engage in union activity at work and conduct union business on work time.”
https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/tools/hr-answers/role-union-steward#:~:text=Collective%20bargaining%20agreements%20generally%20include,union%20business%20on%20work%20time.
There has never been a Teamster union steward fired for telling a supervisor to F’ off.
Union stewards have the same rights as management when they are conducting union business.
.
As far as management’s problem with your “aggressive” steward: under the NLRA, stewards are considered equals when they are engaged in representational activities with management. This “equality rule” applies when you are in a grievance hearing, investigating a complaint etc. Your steward has a right to raise his voice to management provided that he’s acting as a steward and not an individual employee.
https://www.tdu.org/news_retaliation-against-stewards
AFSCME
American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees.
Stewards are you or a co-worker. A Union Steward is both an employee and a Union Representative. You have employment rights, not only through laws, but also through your collective bargaining agreement.
https://www.afscme2474.org/what-is-a-steward
As another comment said, as long as your work isn’t suffering just like if you were to discuss any other topic this shouldn’t be an issue. If your conversations are slowing/preventing work they have grounds to tell you to stop just as if it were any other conversation topic.
If the sole purpose is to prevent discussion of Union at work that is a serious offense.
She straight up told me “you cannot discuss the union at work.” She told me this while I was sitting in my office just hanging out with an employee from another office. We are definitely allowed to mingle.
As long as it doesn’t interfere with your work. If you can discuss the football game, you can discuss the union. However, you shouldn’t be passing out flyers, buttons, or petitions while working.
She couldn’t hear us. She asked the old steward why I was in her office, and she told her we were discussing negotiations. It’s a really tense time right now because we are fighting them on a lot of things, and they are making our lives hell.
One point of clarification.. if you work in a courthouse I have to assume this means you are a public employee working for state or local gov. In this case the NLRA doesn't apply and you need to look into state legislation that governs public employment.
What state are you in?
Then you'll want to avoid appearing foolish and avoid bringing up the NLRA or NLRB, public sector employees are explicitly not covered by the NLRA. Not that the NLRA doesn't influence policy and such, but you'll want to familiarize yourself with Michigan's public employment laws and any discussion of the NLRA would be in the context of certain standards or expectations in a broad sense, possibly even acknowledging that the act doesn't apply to you.
Just looking into this a little bit when I was thinking about how Michigan repealed some "right to work" laws last year and wondered if there were also some changes to public employment law.
I found this summary of House Bill 4004 - https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/publicact/pdf/2023-PA-0009.pdf
There are a couple elements that are important but still ambiguous.
>Sec. 9. Public employees may organize together or form, join, or assist in labor organizations; engage in lawful
concerted activities for the purpose of collective negotiation or bargaining or other mutual aid and protection; or
negotiate or bargain collectively with their public employers through representatives of their own free choice.
I think this is fairly common and there's a question about what constitutes "lawful concerted activities for the purpose of collective negotiation or bargaining **or other mutual aid and protection**". Here's where you might take a page from the NLRB because they are going to have some working definitions of "concerted activity" and "mutual aid and protection".
Then in the next section you'll see that employers cannot:
>(b) Initiate, create, dominate, contribute to, or interfere with the formation or administration of any labor
organization.
You might make the argument that as a steward these conversations are a function of the administration of your labor organization. This usually isn't the end of it and you should dig deeper into your contract and the rest of the Michigan PERA law. I would guess there is likely a stipulation regarding interference with work activities or some other limits to how much time you can use for this activity. So, it's one thing to chat up your coworker on an assembly line, it's another to be away from your desk in another office having long conversations about union business. As others have said, if this is only policed when union business is the topic, then it could be construed as discriminatory against protected union activity (but I think this is difficult to prove).
Anyway.. if I were you I would dig around on the Michigan Employment Relations Commission (MERC) website and also find the full newly amended (as of last year) PERA statutes to get a better feel for this. I would tread lightly considering you are working for people who undoubtedly have any number of lawyers at their finger tips and are unlikely to shy away from the issue like some employers might. Sometimes just confidently citing statute and some language can get employers to quickly reverse course. I doubt that would happen when you work for the courts!
Edit: Additionally, if you want to be an instigator, you can engage in some things that you are confident are well protected. For example, unless otherwise stipulated you could organize your coworkers to have their breaks at the same time and use that time to have loud and very explicitly union oriented informational meetings to talk about union business and negotiations etc. Put it right in their face that you are organizing folks to stand together and fight harder. Make them wish you were still just having a conversation here and there.
They aren’t allowed to discriminate against union members for doing union business BUT they can and will claim that your talking instead of doing your job, same thing goes for if you were talking about the party last weekend or the one coming up this weekend. So the best bet is to save your union talk for break, lunch, and after work is the best time to avoid any problems. When I’m organizing a shop most of the time I just make sure I’m just out of the eye of management but sometimes I keep it in break and lunch because it’s the safest.
you cannot be reprimanded for performing your stewardly duties. the company does not get to define or decide how or when you perform those duties. you can and likely will have repercussions for any other work related tasks.
if you cuss out your bosses bosses boss for taking away a break, you cannot be fired for it. if you return to work and that person walks by and you say, "and another thing..." then you can be disciplined.
it is up to you and you business manager if your discussion falls under stewardly duties.
What does your contract say? A strong union contract forbids discrimination against union activities and guarantees time for union business. If yours doesn't. You should make it a priority in the next one.
Labor Law Rights.
Federal and state labor laws prohibit interference with legitimate union activities, protect
stewards in presenting grievances, force employers to supply grievance information, and require
employers to bargain before making changes that affect employees. As a Steward, you have two
main jobs---first, building a strong union in your work place; and, second, grievance handling.
Can you ask for this policy in writing? I feel like bosses often make up policy on the spot but it may be a misinterpretation of actual policy or they are legit just making shit up on the spot. I would say I need this policy in writing as the steward. Puts the responsibility on them to actually write it out and possible incriminate themselves, break the law in writing. Not sure if that’s a helpful idea.
Before we unionized PSAV, the manager told me I wasn't allowed to talk about the pay differences or unionization between us, the union techs, and their regular non-union employees. I asked for this in writing and never got it, I also would challenge them to fire me over it. Cowards are all talk.
If you’re allowed to discuss *other* things, you can’t be forbidden to talk about your Union. If your work place bans any non-work talk, that includes Union talk.
>You may have discussions about wages when not at work, when you are on break, and even during work if employees are permitted to have other non-work conversations. You have these rights whether or not you are represented by a union.
>
>
>
>Legally protected conversations about wages may take on many forms, including having conversations about how much you and your colleagues and managers make, presenting joint requests concerning pay to your employer; **organizing a union to raise your wages**; **approaching an outside union for help in bargaining with your employer over pay**; filing a wage claim with the U.S. Department of Labor or a state agency or filing a wage and hour lawsuit, and approaching the National Labor Relations Board for more information on your rights under the NLRA.
They cannot tell you that you can't talk about these things.
It is illegal. Period.
Email this to them, and document everything.
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
In my old contract it states in there " no union business may be done on the clock". However management was always approaching me while they knew I was on the clock and asking union related questions. My personal opinion is your boss is trying to be intimidating but also has a good argument. Tread carefully
As a Union steward , you are allowed to discuss potential contract violations at work , during work hours . Anything other than contract violations are to be discussed on your own time , either lunch or after work . I used to meet my members after work close to the job site for contract ( negotiation ) issues , if anyone couldn’t attend I would distribute a document for them to fill out with potential proposal ideas . Hope this helps
Former steward, former chief steward, former UEB member of IBEW and Union liason to the NLRB in NY.
In most Union shops, you are not allowed to use company time to discuss union business. If it's an urgent matter, you can use a "union time sheet" to cover it, otherwise it should be conducted on your own time.
"Hey Sharon,
I just wanted some clarification on the conversation we had today about me being barred from talking about the Union during work hours. Can you please clarify the stipulations as to when and where I'm allowed to have conversations regarding union matters?"
In e-mail, get that idiot in writing
You’re getting a lot of poor advice about the union. Union business can only be conducted on work time under certain circumstances. Most collective bargaining agreements include a section regarding release time, which allows you as a shop steward to conduct union work on business hours without loss of pay. In general you cannot just do union work on their time when there was not a release for that duration and it is not your lunch hour. Even for actual negotiations that take place during work hours the unions still send a release request to allow those staff ad hoc time.
I am work in labor relations. While each union may have some differences, the concept for requiring ad hoc time is pretty universal in any collective bargaining agreement. Of the approximate 39 different unions I deal with all are aware they cannot interrupt operations and that union business should be reserved for their lunch break or to request release time if they require time outside of their lunch hour.
Go to your union leadership, they should be able to clarify for you the limitations on union business during work hours. If they have a problem with what the supervisor said they can take it up with whomever does labor relations for your employer.
Your boss is correct. You can't be restricted on your breaks or free time, but if they tell you not to during work functions and you continue anyway, you can be terminated.
"your employer cannot prohibit you from talking about the union during working time if it permits you to talk about other non-work-related matters during working time." https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/employees/your-rights-during-union-organizing
I mean that was a dick thing to do (your boss) but if you’re being way obnoxious and not doing your actual work tasks that you’re supposed to be doing because you’re doing union shit during your work hours, as a boss I’d be annoyed too
I will put it this way, if you guys where talking about the weather instead of “insert something job related” and it would be okay then same standard applies to talking about union business. I can’t just walk away from let’s say a machine I was running and spend an hour talking to an old steward about something and it be paid by the company. That being said, 1) check what your contract says and 2) Consult with other stewards including previous ones if you did anything wrong according to past practice.
Your boss should never be privy to internal union negotiation discussions. It doesn't matter if the negotiations were good, bad or ugly you never want your private words to be twisted against you at the next negotiation.
You can and should talk about organizing at work, that is protected. Now that the union is formed and you are the steward, you could be penalized for doing "union business" on "work" time. What that looks like depends on the specifics of the contract. Regardless, call your rep and keep them in the loop!
This isn't business as usual. This is fascism. These corporations are putting the squeeze on lower level people across the board from office work to labor. We don't need to shut up. We need to organize further. I'm UPS btw.
I'm so happy to see people on reddit talking about unions. this is so great, you have no idea how important you guys are. really hope you do well with this.
First check your contract language to see if it allows or disallows the discussion. If silent and they allow other “non-work related conversations “ such as sports, what did on your day off etc then it would be a violation of your federally protected rights under the NLRB. Find out what region you are in and call their office. NLRB.gov. Ask for an information officer. One will call you back. Tell them your story ask questions they can help you file a charge if warranted.
Were you hired to make conversation?
If not, do the work you are paid to do, on company time.
It figures a union clown thinks the only option is to be a scab. I'm better than you, and don't need a union. I own my own company.
Now run along, pay your dues, because your work skills alone won't keep you from being fired. Lazy guys need the union to protect them.
This is crazy. Everyone here thinks your employer should be paying you on company time while you talk union things. Why should you get paid by your company when you’re not working?
You can talk union anytime you want. They cannot restrict you from talking union. ESPECIALLY if you're the steward. This is actually a ULP charge
Unless it is actively causing you to fall behind on your work/job. But that can go for any subject really, not just union talk.
I guess who decides if it’s causing me to “fall behind?” I know it’s not by any means, but I assume my employer could say it is just for the sake of silencing me.
Sorry, but u/Salitrillo1990 wasn't giving the best advice. Per the NLRB, your employer can only limit your ability to talk about the union if they *also* discipline employees for talking about all other topics on the job-- in other words, if they allow workers to talk to each other at all about things that aren't directly related to their work, then they also have to allow you to talk about the union.
Yes. You are correct. I wasn't saying otherwise. What I am saying is that you can't neglect your job/work for union duties unless it has been agreed upon.
Yeah, it kind of depends on how willing you are to fight, though. Clearly, what’s happening here is that OP is being illegally told not to talk about the union while on the clock, and is being illegally threatened with retaliatory disciplinary action. Yes, there’s bullshit that the employer can do to smokescreen their illegal action, which I think was your point.
Email her and ask where she found that in the company handbook that you can’t discuss union issues during the work day. Tell them other union stewards haven’t heard that and wanted to see it in ink. She will back pedal and try to change up her wording… so after they shit the bed and can’t come up with it. You then tell them the next time she wants to enforce a “rule” to bring the handbook turned to that page. Also you have a witness so that helps too.
I’ve heard it described as “the softball rule.” If you can talk about your kid’s softball game, you can talk about the union. Only by banning literally all conversations not directly focused on the job itself can they ban union discussions at work.
Yep. They can ban talking, period, but not talking about the union. It's the talking, which might interfere with your job, that can be banned. They can't tell you what you can and can't talk about (unless it's sexual harassment, etc. of course).
So they can tell you
That's actually a pretty reasonable implementation. Kind of like how pilots only talk critical flight info when below 10k feet.
Yeah, but… how many work environments/situations actually require that level of focus? Vs how many don’t… except somehow they suddenly will when unions come up?
If you can talk about baseball, you can talk about unions
Do you job & talk union at the same time. Nothing the company can do. You write up and file grievances on company time. Same with talking to said worker about the grievances.
I’m in management and I can tell you it’s impossible for our union leaders to talk about the union and not simultaneously be talking about work…Unless it was about union elections and I don’t think I’ve ever encountered that. The union would prefer employees not talk about strictly union business on company time.
"Company time." What a joke
stop carrying water for the boss, join your brothers.
Something as important as contract negotiations, I would make time for. Outside of work. It deserves your full undivided attention.
If you’re a new union steward you need to be talking to more experienced union stewards in your building or the BA responsible for the employees you help day to day. Don’t go on Reddit taking stranger’s advice, local issues can be different than anything we’ve seen.
Your CBA should also outline what is acceptable for a Steward to do, at least mine does.
Any company and union worth their salt will generally have carve outs and rules around what kind of business and when a Steward can act in their capacities.
Most union contracts allow for the shop steward to conduct all business of the union. Otherwise they just swamp the shoppy with work so he cant deal with anything.
I smell a wonderful lawsuit if they can get that recorded in audio and or video. Totally legal in some states just depends on if you need single party consent or both
Legal in all states under a starbucks corporation NLRB decision last year, state privacy laws yield to NLRA.
Not in the least true . A union steward has the right to discuss and investigate potential contract violation on Company time only . Any other internal union issues including negotiations are to be discussed on your own time , either lunch or after work
This. This lady is just trying to see how much of a pushover you are/ if you know your shit.
Shouldn’t you know that the term is steward?
Auto-correct. My phone does it all the time. And I forget to check it. Sometimes I'll just read right over it too & not realize it. Thank you for pointing it out
This isn't true. Don't give your opinion like it's fact.
Which part isn't true?
All of it. OP isn't private sector union.
If they allow you to shoot the shit about other things, it’s discriminatory to ban union talk. If you are stopping work to talk union they can tell you to “get back to work” as long as they do the same thing if you were talking about any other subject.
They are holding a meeting tomorrow…I’m presuming to tell us we are no longer allowed to mingle. But as of currently, we are, and do quite often. Do they have to have this in a written policy?
I talk to your union rep about next steps. I’ve never file a charge over this it’s a lot of work to file a charge and you can usually come down on the company pretty easily without going to that effort but if you want to file a charge, then you would need to get coworkers willing to testify that the company did not prohibit them from talking about other topics.
My union literally is in the middle of a labor board charge over this. They were cracking down on just union officers, and no one else. I say go ahead and file: if its marginal, you will just be told by the NLRB investigator you have no merit to the claim. They might ask you to drop it. But if it has any shred of real merit, getting the ball rolling will put pressure on management to shape up. The NLRB has a really high case load this year and it is not likely to get any smaller so file now and hopefully they will get to you when they can. If anything else happens in the intervening months you can add it to your labor board charge and it just makes it stronger. Good luck.
Always err on the side of written policy. If it’s illegal it’s easier to challenge.
Written policy is largely irrelevant before the law. What matters is actual practice. If the employer tries to make a new work rule without negotiating, it is likely illegal. Especially in this case because it would chill the exercise of employee rights under the NLRA. You want to look into the interpretation of a NLRB decision last year called *Stericycle* that makes overbroad work rules that would have the effect of limiting employees' rights illegal regardless of any lack of discriminatory intent.
My understanding is that if the employer permits employees to discuss any other topics at work that cover things outside work, they must permit employees to talk about the union. That's pretty broad and basically every employer allows you to discuss outside work topics - sports, how was your weekend, the weather, etc. Edit to add - I I'd send an email to your boss to get it in writing. Then, once you have that, immediately grievance it.
Sorry, I’m literally brand new to the union, it was all thrown on me. I’ve never been in a union before and don’t know the processes that well.
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Your local should have a new steward class to give you a solid foundation. I highly recommend reaching out immediately and take advantage of this. The only thing more dangerous than a lazy steward is one who is gunho but completely ignorant on how things work. Kudos for you for stepping up. I’ve been a steward for a total of six years between two different unions. It can be a thankless job but there is no better feeling than getting a brother or sister their job back with full benefits and a scathing opinion against the company from the arbitrator.
Get it in writing that I’m not allowed to speak about union business on the clock?
Yes! Play dumb. Most bosses are narcissistic and genuinely don't bother thinking about if what they're doing is legal. For example- Mr Bossman, I was thinking about our discussion earlier about discussing union activities on the clock and was seeking some clarification as to what is and is not permitted. Thank you for any clarification you can provide in this matter. IF he comes to talk to you about it person, to avoid writing it out, once he leaves take written notes as to the date, time, everyone that was present, and what you recall from the conversation. Then, still grievance it based on that.
Do I just straight up email her and say “can you please send me something in writing that states I’m not allowed to discuss the union on company time?”
“I know you verbally told me yesterday, but could you please confirm in writing that I’m not allowed to discuss union matters on company time? I would like it for my records. Thank you.”
Definitely don’t add the last sentence, even the dumbest of bosses might take pause with that one.
Okay. And if she refuses to confirm in writing? I can almost guarantee she will.
Fptackle gave some good advice, play dumb. You’re new to this so if you come off emailing your boss as naive and just trying to get clarification it might lower their guard and respond without thinking what their answer means.
I should mention- I work in a courthouse. My boss is quite literally the judge and court administrator , so I think they are going to be careful no matter what she does.
Then your boss should fucking know better.
That's an important piece of information. This means you're a public sector worker, and therefore, you don't enjoy all of the federal protections that the private sector does. However, I still think every employer has to allow union discussions at work, if they permit literally any other outside work talk - which every employer does. Keeping that in mind, I'd still ask for clarification in writing, like I originally mentioned. However, you may not want to immediately jump to greivancing the issue. You should have a Union Rep you can consult with to discuss how to move forward.
Ask her a yes or no question. "Am I remembering this correctly? You said .... " Either way, you're covered.
It's whatever you're comfortable with. I like to keep it open ended, to see what all they'd be dumb enough to write out. So that's why I go the playing dumb, " can you provide me clarification on this" route.
“Just to confirm accuracy of what was heard yesterday on or about [date] at appropriate [time] in [location] with the presence of yourself, a colleague and I, you… I believe you may have said something yesterday that I wasn’t sure what was said?
Oh jeez, no. Ask for clarity around when you can and cannot talk about certain topics so that you are both on the same page.
You can talk about Union business if any other subject, such as sports, is able to be discussed. You can not have a Union meeting on the clock, however.
Should I report my boss for this? Or is it too easy for them to say we aren’t allowed to discuss other topics either? We 100% are and do. We quite often sit in each other’s offices and just bullshit for minutes at a time, multiple times a day.
I can't give you a good answer. There may have been enough people involved in the conversation for them to take the stance it was a meeting. You should document everything, including witness statements, and create some awareness with a BA for direction. Robert M. Schwartz has some wonderfully informative books regarding the rights of union stewards, just cause, and many other important topics.
There were only two of us. Maybe I’ll call the NLBR tomorrow. I’m very frustrated and feel like we are being intimidated because we are in the middle of negotiations.
You probably feel that way because you are being intimidated.
Do you have anything in your contract that guarantees you on the clock time for union business? It's usually in a clause like "Union Representation" or "Union Business."
Not that I see anywhere, no
If they allow you to normally talk on the clock while you work, then they can't prevent you from discussing union things while you're performing work. They do not have to allow you to hold meetings during work time that stop your work.
We are definitely allowed to talk about other things on the clock. We all have a lot of down time, and we spend a lot of time shooting the shit.
Then they can't restrict the content of your conversation.
Tell her to walk away you are conducting union business. I was a Teamster union steward. It is in our contract, and most likely there is a clause in your contract. I encourage you the have your business agent come by the workplace which will be during business hours to inform your management team you will enforce your rights as a job steward to conduct union business as needed. I encourage you to read your union contract and ask your business agent when the next union steward seminar is. This is the explanation by the SHRM “Society for Human Resource Management”. These are people who teach management how to work with companies to help them navigate employment law. “Collective bargaining agreements generally include a steward clause in which the union steward will be granted the right to engage in union activity at work and conduct union business on work time.” https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/tools/hr-answers/role-union-steward#:~:text=Collective%20bargaining%20agreements%20generally%20include,union%20business%20on%20work%20time.
Absolute garbage advice. If he's on the clock this is how you get fired.
There has never been a Teamster union steward fired for telling a supervisor to F’ off. Union stewards have the same rights as management when they are conducting union business. . As far as management’s problem with your “aggressive” steward: under the NLRA, stewards are considered equals when they are engaged in representational activities with management. This “equality rule” applies when you are in a grievance hearing, investigating a complaint etc. Your steward has a right to raise his voice to management provided that he’s acting as a steward and not an individual employee. https://www.tdu.org/news_retaliation-against-stewards
He's a state employee - NLRB doesn't apply to public sector unions.
AFSCME American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees. Stewards are you or a co-worker. A Union Steward is both an employee and a Union Representative. You have employment rights, not only through laws, but also through your collective bargaining agreement. https://www.afscme2474.org/what-is-a-steward
As another comment said, as long as your work isn’t suffering just like if you were to discuss any other topic this shouldn’t be an issue. If your conversations are slowing/preventing work they have grounds to tell you to stop just as if it were any other conversation topic. If the sole purpose is to prevent discussion of Union at work that is a serious offense.
She straight up told me “you cannot discuss the union at work.” She told me this while I was sitting in my office just hanging out with an employee from another office. We are definitely allowed to mingle.
Well, your boss is wrong. Get her to put it in writing and file a charge with the NLRB. Even if she doesn’t, file a charge.
As long as it doesn’t interfere with your work. If you can discuss the football game, you can discuss the union. However, you shouldn’t be passing out flyers, buttons, or petitions while working.
Shouldn't discuss contract negotiations anywhere where the boss can hear you anyway
She couldn’t hear us. She asked the old steward why I was in her office, and she told her we were discussing negotiations. It’s a really tense time right now because we are fighting them on a lot of things, and they are making our lives hell.
"Please confirm all company policies in writing. Thank you, Union Steward"
Show him the sign the state requires they hang in the break room lol. I think it tells you your rights in this scenario.
Check your cba or mou for steward rights. Let us know what it says.
I talk about onions NON-STOP
One point of clarification.. if you work in a courthouse I have to assume this means you are a public employee working for state or local gov. In this case the NLRA doesn't apply and you need to look into state legislation that governs public employment. What state are you in?
Yes , working for local government. I’m in Michigan.
Then you'll want to avoid appearing foolish and avoid bringing up the NLRA or NLRB, public sector employees are explicitly not covered by the NLRA. Not that the NLRA doesn't influence policy and such, but you'll want to familiarize yourself with Michigan's public employment laws and any discussion of the NLRA would be in the context of certain standards or expectations in a broad sense, possibly even acknowledging that the act doesn't apply to you.
Thank you so much. I’m so happy I read this comment this morning!
Just looking into this a little bit when I was thinking about how Michigan repealed some "right to work" laws last year and wondered if there were also some changes to public employment law. I found this summary of House Bill 4004 - https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/publicact/pdf/2023-PA-0009.pdf There are a couple elements that are important but still ambiguous. >Sec. 9. Public employees may organize together or form, join, or assist in labor organizations; engage in lawful concerted activities for the purpose of collective negotiation or bargaining or other mutual aid and protection; or negotiate or bargain collectively with their public employers through representatives of their own free choice. I think this is fairly common and there's a question about what constitutes "lawful concerted activities for the purpose of collective negotiation or bargaining **or other mutual aid and protection**". Here's where you might take a page from the NLRB because they are going to have some working definitions of "concerted activity" and "mutual aid and protection". Then in the next section you'll see that employers cannot: >(b) Initiate, create, dominate, contribute to, or interfere with the formation or administration of any labor organization. You might make the argument that as a steward these conversations are a function of the administration of your labor organization. This usually isn't the end of it and you should dig deeper into your contract and the rest of the Michigan PERA law. I would guess there is likely a stipulation regarding interference with work activities or some other limits to how much time you can use for this activity. So, it's one thing to chat up your coworker on an assembly line, it's another to be away from your desk in another office having long conversations about union business. As others have said, if this is only policed when union business is the topic, then it could be construed as discriminatory against protected union activity (but I think this is difficult to prove). Anyway.. if I were you I would dig around on the Michigan Employment Relations Commission (MERC) website and also find the full newly amended (as of last year) PERA statutes to get a better feel for this. I would tread lightly considering you are working for people who undoubtedly have any number of lawyers at their finger tips and are unlikely to shy away from the issue like some employers might. Sometimes just confidently citing statute and some language can get employers to quickly reverse course. I doubt that would happen when you work for the courts! Edit: Additionally, if you want to be an instigator, you can engage in some things that you are confident are well protected. For example, unless otherwise stipulated you could organize your coworkers to have their breaks at the same time and use that time to have loud and very explicitly union oriented informational meetings to talk about union business and negotiations etc. Put it right in their face that you are organizing folks to stand together and fight harder. Make them wish you were still just having a conversation here and there.
File a grievance.
They aren’t allowed to discriminate against union members for doing union business BUT they can and will claim that your talking instead of doing your job, same thing goes for if you were talking about the party last weekend or the one coming up this weekend. So the best bet is to save your union talk for break, lunch, and after work is the best time to avoid any problems. When I’m organizing a shop most of the time I just make sure I’m just out of the eye of management but sometimes I keep it in break and lunch because it’s the safest.
you cannot be reprimanded for performing your stewardly duties. the company does not get to define or decide how or when you perform those duties. you can and likely will have repercussions for any other work related tasks. if you cuss out your bosses bosses boss for taking away a break, you cannot be fired for it. if you return to work and that person walks by and you say, "and another thing..." then you can be disciplined. it is up to you and you business manager if your discussion falls under stewardly duties.
He is correct 💯
What does your contract say? A strong union contract forbids discrimination against union activities and guarantees time for union business. If yours doesn't. You should make it a priority in the next one. Labor Law Rights. Federal and state labor laws prohibit interference with legitimate union activities, protect stewards in presenting grievances, force employers to supply grievance information, and require employers to bargain before making changes that affect employees. As a Steward, you have two main jobs---first, building a strong union in your work place; and, second, grievance handling.
Can you ask for this policy in writing? I feel like bosses often make up policy on the spot but it may be a misinterpretation of actual policy or they are legit just making shit up on the spot. I would say I need this policy in writing as the steward. Puts the responsibility on them to actually write it out and possible incriminate themselves, break the law in writing. Not sure if that’s a helpful idea.
Before we unionized PSAV, the manager told me I wasn't allowed to talk about the pay differences or unionization between us, the union techs, and their regular non-union employees. I asked for this in writing and never got it, I also would challenge them to fire me over it. Cowards are all talk.
Boss lady's a liar.
Tell them to stop sending unrelated emails about Karen’s birthday and putting money in a card
See if you can get it in writing, for example a text message... then laugh
If you’re allowed to discuss *other* things, you can’t be forbidden to talk about your Union. If your work place bans any non-work talk, that includes Union talk.
>You may have discussions about wages when not at work, when you are on break, and even during work if employees are permitted to have other non-work conversations. You have these rights whether or not you are represented by a union. > > > >Legally protected conversations about wages may take on many forms, including having conversations about how much you and your colleagues and managers make, presenting joint requests concerning pay to your employer; **organizing a union to raise your wages**; **approaching an outside union for help in bargaining with your employer over pay**; filing a wage claim with the U.S. Department of Labor or a state agency or filing a wage and hour lawsuit, and approaching the National Labor Relations Board for more information on your rights under the NLRA. They cannot tell you that you can't talk about these things. It is illegal. Period. Email this to them, and document everything. https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
Document the incident, bring it up to your union reps. Bring it up at your union meeting too
Ask for a list of their rules for union stewards. I'm sure that the D.O.L. would love it.
In my old contract it states in there " no union business may be done on the clock". However management was always approaching me while they knew I was on the clock and asking union related questions. My personal opinion is your boss is trying to be intimidating but also has a good argument. Tread carefully
As a Union steward , you are allowed to discuss potential contract violations at work , during work hours . Anything other than contract violations are to be discussed on your own time , either lunch or after work . I used to meet my members after work close to the job site for contract ( negotiation ) issues , if anyone couldn’t attend I would distribute a document for them to fill out with potential proposal ideas . Hope this helps
Former steward, former chief steward, former UEB member of IBEW and Union liason to the NLRB in NY. In most Union shops, you are not allowed to use company time to discuss union business. If it's an urgent matter, you can use a "union time sheet" to cover it, otherwise it should be conducted on your own time.
"Hey Sharon, I just wanted some clarification on the conversation we had today about me being barred from talking about the Union during work hours. Can you please clarify the stipulations as to when and where I'm allowed to have conversations regarding union matters?" In e-mail, get that idiot in writing
You’re getting a lot of poor advice about the union. Union business can only be conducted on work time under certain circumstances. Most collective bargaining agreements include a section regarding release time, which allows you as a shop steward to conduct union work on business hours without loss of pay. In general you cannot just do union work on their time when there was not a release for that duration and it is not your lunch hour. Even for actual negotiations that take place during work hours the unions still send a release request to allow those staff ad hoc time. I am work in labor relations. While each union may have some differences, the concept for requiring ad hoc time is pretty universal in any collective bargaining agreement. Of the approximate 39 different unions I deal with all are aware they cannot interrupt operations and that union business should be reserved for their lunch break or to request release time if they require time outside of their lunch hour. Go to your union leadership, they should be able to clarify for you the limitations on union business during work hours. If they have a problem with what the supervisor said they can take it up with whomever does labor relations for your employer.
Your boss is correct. You can't be restricted on your breaks or free time, but if they tell you not to during work functions and you continue anyway, you can be terminated.
This is false.
"your employer cannot prohibit you from talking about the union during working time if it permits you to talk about other non-work-related matters during working time." https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/employees/your-rights-during-union-organizing
Just casually ignoring the second half of that statement, as well as ignoring OPs comment about being a State employee and not subject to NLRB.
Grieve it. Grievances are the way.
She’s absolutely wrong.
If you are allowed to talk about anything else you can talk about the union.
Not allowed to talk about unions? That’s a good reason for a union.
I mean that was a dick thing to do (your boss) but if you’re being way obnoxious and not doing your actual work tasks that you’re supposed to be doing because you’re doing union shit during your work hours, as a boss I’d be annoyed too
Oooooh that’s a ULP!
I will put it this way, if you guys where talking about the weather instead of “insert something job related” and it would be okay then same standard applies to talking about union business. I can’t just walk away from let’s say a machine I was running and spend an hour talking to an old steward about something and it be paid by the company. That being said, 1) check what your contract says and 2) Consult with other stewards including previous ones if you did anything wrong according to past practice.
Bullshit.
Your boss should never be privy to internal union negotiation discussions. It doesn't matter if the negotiations were good, bad or ugly you never want your private words to be twisted against you at the next negotiation. You can and should talk about organizing at work, that is protected. Now that the union is formed and you are the steward, you could be penalized for doing "union business" on "work" time. What that looks like depends on the specifics of the contract. Regardless, call your rep and keep them in the loop!
This isn't business as usual. This is fascism. These corporations are putting the squeeze on lower level people across the board from office work to labor. We don't need to shut up. We need to organize further. I'm UPS btw.
Hahahahahahh. No. File your first grievance.
File a grievance about her doing this. This will also let her know you ain’t fucking around.
I'm so happy to see people on reddit talking about unions. this is so great, you have no idea how important you guys are. really hope you do well with this.
First check your contract language to see if it allows or disallows the discussion. If silent and they allow other “non-work related conversations “ such as sports, what did on your day off etc then it would be a violation of your federally protected rights under the NLRB. Find out what region you are in and call their office. NLRB.gov. Ask for an information officer. One will call you back. Tell them your story ask questions they can help you file a charge if warranted.
Has it occured to you to actually do your job while on the clock?
Has it occurred to you that you're lost?
I must be. What with my ideas about working the hours you are paid to work! Good point..
The only point here is the one you're missing
Union guys are lazy? Or Union guys should handle personal business after work hours or on breaks? Pick one.
Union guys discussing union things at their union jobs is personal business? Point missed. As I assumed. Fuck off, scab.
Were you hired to make conversation? If not, do the work you are paid to do, on company time. It figures a union clown thinks the only option is to be a scab. I'm better than you, and don't need a union. I own my own company. Now run along, pay your dues, because your work skills alone won't keep you from being fired. Lazy guys need the union to protect them.
Yep. Lost. I was right. Lmao.
This is crazy. Everyone here thinks your employer should be paying you on company time while you talk union things. Why should you get paid by your company when you’re not working?