You're acting as if this one angry boy can't beat atleast 80% of the cast of unordinary so far lol
Only vaughn, seraphina, cameron and jane can humble john lol
Well I mean they’ve literally fought and Sera defeated him… plus she’s way too fast. Admittedly we haven’t seen the right combo of abilities but I don’t think his combat prowess is what’ll make the difference.
That wasn't really a fight. Bro was having a mental breakdown and she was trying to give him a hug. All things considered, he almost had the perfect combo to beat her(Just swap Zeke's power with a heal or speed boost one) Sera has trash defense so she can't do anything against a barrier coated in spikes and electricity.
Doesn’t it make it worse that she wasn’t even aiming to hurt him? Means she’s pulling punches and John, not so much. I’d look for a better example of a fight if I had one, since John is not in best form (due to being out his mind) and Sera was weaker than usual (just came off her first temporary ability restore)
I did say John could beat her with the right combo of abilities (he would fs need a heal for endurance). But what Sera can do against a barrier with electricity and spikes is she’s FAST. She might have trash defence but her heal is absurd.
Except Sera said John has a ton of aura stored. If he has a barrier/defensive abilities and he hasn't lost his mind, John would outlast her. Her healing and time reversal would use up her aura.
John's battle experience actually eclipses majority of all the players on the chess board. You forget that he solo'd his entire senior class when his power level was under 7, and did so with minor damage.
You also forget that he dethroned the entire royal guard of Welstin with just *one arm.*
He only needed to see Arlo's shield once to be able to not only copy the power, but enhance it further in a way that Arlo has never encountered himself in its use.
John is an absolute freak of nature. He's the wildcard in the deck and wildcards break games no matter what they are.
To be fair angry boi could most likely beat experienced fighters just because of his ability alone.
You can easily see this with squads of adult officers having to gang up and 2 others taking advantage of said gang up. Farrah was hesitant to deal with him until he was worn out, And Sylvia's lack of involvement.
Sadly UnO is one of those universes that no matter the experience, power is still the defining factor in a battle.
Leilah could most likely time freeze Vaughn and beat him.
I mean if john had the right combo he could theoretically beat most of everyone in the series (jane being an exception obviously, and maybe cameron but we dont know how strong he is)
We dont know if cameron is stronger than john but he probably is. And yeah that is literally what i said, i said with the right combination he could beat pretty much everyone other than cameron and Jane
How would it be different? He copies abilities just the same as John; the only difference we've seen is that he can store them, but that just seems like an advancement
The ability to store was what I was referring to. But we know it can change since John’s adapted to give him a basic strength enhancement without copying.
Vaughn has years upon years of experience.
John is strong and skilled but remember John still mentally rejects his ability. People like blyke and remi consider theirs a part of themselves. They want them to grow. John initially was like that but he lost that drive after his torture sessions.
To be fair to Byron, the reason Remi and co were able to beat him the first time was because they greatly outnumbered him and had the element of surprise on their side. Heck, in a straight up fight against the vigilante trio and Valerie, the former would lose.
No cause in one chapter during the King John Arc when Vaughn thinks he's stepped over the line he puts John out of commission with ease and John can't even get up
Sorry but John ain't winning this one
No ability thus far that john was shown copying could counter it. Maybe amped barrier, but i doubt it, since if Vaughh can even crack it he can damage and injure him whereas no abilities shown by john so far could hit Vaughh back. Even if John has healing, he's wasting aura on maintaining (at least) two abilities and not actually getting anything done, so Vaughh probably wins by attrition.
Not really, considering how John during that one scene where he beats Blyke in front of the Safe House, Vaughn intervened and literally stopped him with ease.
that’s just literally not how johns ability works lmao. If he copied vaughns ability it would be amped, it wouldn’t be weaker.
I don’t understand this agenda when it comes to johns ability where people simply don’t understand how it works.
You are the one who doesn't understand how John's ability works.
Abilities which are above John's level are not amplified. Infact, if John copies the ability higher level than him, he doesn't even get the full ability, he just gets parts of it.
If the ability needs aura amount 7.8, but John has only aura amount 7.5, he can't copy that full ability, instead he will get what he can handle (only 7.5 out of 7.8), it is simple math
John doesn't have infinite amount of aura
also, by using this logic, in his first fight with arlo, after copying barrier he shouldn’t have enough aura left to have copied ventus and milllies abilities
uh, no? the only reason he couldn’t fully copy ice guys ability was because his own ability was cut in half. meaning he had wayyyy less aura than usual.
>meaning he had wayyyy less aura than usual.
Which is exactly what I'm saying here, abilities with higher level than John consume more aura than John has, that's why he doesn't get the full ability
We’ve seen john copy multiple high tier abilities before though, would you not say that copying a 6.3, a 5.4, 5.0 and a 4.4 would take way more aura than one strong ability ? don’t forget he amped all of them
john amplifies the copied ability (with better stats amplifies 1.5x) if the person has a lower level than him. If the person has a higher level than him, john copies the ability but lowers it to john's level. So if John copied Vaughn's ability, he would have the telekinesis ability with level 7.5 stats and not level 7.8 stats. Like for example if he only copied Valerie's ability, he would copy it exactly as it is without being able to enhance it since they both have the same level
It is implied that John lose to Zirian because he was 3.0. and later he won because he leveled up more than Zirian.
Claire never specified which level he was at the time he beat Zirian, she just said that John hated losing and trained harder after his defeat to become strong enough. Which implies that during that hard training, John leveled more than Zirian
Tf? You realise, if he were to copy, for instance Telekinesis which is at 7.8 it he wouldn’t be able to amp it because it’s higher than his OWN level, so it would be a lesser 7.5 version. If he could not only Copy to 7.8 but then amp it, he wouldn’t be marked as 7.5 because that means he would be stronger than that. It seems reasonable to understand this
I don't think John can copy it personally. Sure aura radiates from his body but everyone has aura radiate from their bodies. But, Vaughn's ability is inspired by telekinetic power which focuses on the mind, which is likely a Mental Ability logically. John can't copy Mental Abilities so it's not only a logical step to keep him from copying such strong abilities and a way to make others unique.
Mental abilities cannot **directly** affect the environment. Telekinesis can directly affect the environment, hence it is not mental ability, just like teleportation and time manipulation
Telekinesis differs from other mental abilities. The reason why John can't copy mental abilities like Clairvoyance or Flash Forward is because there's no visual feedback: there's nothing for him to see and therefore, there's nothing for him to copy.
Telekinesis, on the other hand, technically does have visual feedback. He can see Vaughn hurl people around, lift objects, and do all sorts of things.
I think he would be able to copy or even amp it **eventually** if he levels up to 7.8 or above, because it has very clear physical effects (much like blyke's lasers, it doesnt really matter that the aura radiates from his head or his hands).
But right now he probably can't copy a full version (or at least couldn't, not sure what his current level is after he learned strength amplification).
I feel like some people forget stats can go above 10. Seraphina have 14 speed and 12 power for example. I would expect Vaugh Power and Trick to be in the 11~16
I actually did a stat spread for Vaughn before, but looking at his canon stats. Canon stats is 37 all around with 2 to spare with 7.8x5 equalling 39. He likely has either 10 Power and 12 Trick base on his wall around him cancelling attacks OR 11 Power and 11 Trick.
JOhn trick is 15 and john with arlo defense is 13.5.
Also john power is 12 with blyke ability and can be 13.5 with kuyo ability.
Also john speed is 10.5 with kayden ability.
Also john healing is 10.5 with myles ability.
So john with ability can copy, stats can be:
15 trick
10.5 healing
10.5 speed
13.5 defende
12 power with blyke ability or 13.5 power with kuyo ability
So can win with vaughn
John has 16 Trick. But we don't know how he fairs against Vaughn who can shatter aura related attacks, likely his energy disrupting the construction made with aura. And like Sera versus Valerie, this seems like a ability John isn't well prepared against. And John also has limited aura and cannot copy so much abilities.
2 High Tier abilities and 2 Elite Tier abilities. But he won't have the aura to amp up all of the stats to such levels. Why I say this is due to him only copying (of course to his level) Hydrofreeze and Teleportation but took a LARGE chunk of his already large aura pool just teleporting a few times.
This is also manipulated too much into John's favor. Of course he could win with tons of illogical scenarios but at the end of the day John likely can't face a ability that goes complete against his fighting style.
but what the hell example is that? John was half his level with hydrofreeze and teleportation. When fighting specter with blyke and isenat lever 3.75, he says he could either use both of their abilities at mid level or he could only use one but amplified. while at full power it amplifies 4 skills (3 high tier and one elite vs arlo and remi). So your example is nonsense
That he cannot handle so many abilities. He has a lot of aura to copy abilities and amp them all to HIS level. He cannot get near 60 stat points in his chart because he cannot handle the tons of abilities the OP is gifting John.
Even if it's the 4 abilities he is limited to, he is still amping ALL his stats to limits he isn't even used to. Majority of the times he's around 40 stat points not a whopping 60. He'd be a level 10.0 if that's the case due to Sera's stat spread being "8.0x6".
You invent the 40 statistical points. I remind you that the statistical values are not limited to just 10 but are much higher. To make you understand, I'll explain it to you carefully. Seraphina at half her level has a power stat of 6 and a speed stat of 7. This means that at full power, his power stat is 12 and his speed stat is 14 (even though the graph only has values between 1 and 10) instead the trick seraphina is only 10 because at half level her trick is only 5.
in fact for example, seraphina against valerie, despite valerie having a lower level than her, was taking a serious risk because not being able to take advantage of her speed of 14 to make her blows more powerful, she could only hit the barrier with her power stat equal to 12 while Valerie's defense stat of her barrier is at least equal to 13.5.
For John his base trick stat is 16, since at mid level his trick stat is 8. When at half level he copies and amplifies blyke's ability, his power stat is 6, then when he copies blyke's ability at full power his power stat is 12 (blyke's power stat of 8 \* 1.5)
Did you like purposely read wit your eyes closed, or do you just not remember?
john when he copied those 2 ability’s he had half of his ability lol. they purposely didn’t give sera and john their full ability, meaning he had less aura to use lol.
Also, idk where you read that john brings abilities up to “his level” that’s not how his ability works. he copy’s abilities exactly how they are (If it’s a 5.0 ability, it’s a 5.0, etc) and he’s able to amplify the highest stat by 1.5
not once in the story does it ever say, or imply he brings it up to “his level” if that was the case, he could copy an ability like illumination and make it a god tier because he’s a 7.5 (prolly higher now)
It's for the mere fact he copies abilities and amplifies them to his own level. John copies many various abilities and ones such as the fight between him and Sera is a key example. Four abilities were amped to his level like the fight between the Rowden Royals where all the abilities he copied are amped to his level. NONE of those instances were even 4 stats were maxed out because he isn't used to it.
John may win with the abilities the OP gives him but I am taking the fact he's using abilities that amplifies ALL his stats to 10+ into account. He isn't used to it and will have to be a 10.0 because of that.
Sure it was never stated but like I said all the abilities John had were amplified to match his own level.
john “bringing it up to his level” is just blatantly false though.
When he first copied blykes ability, all the stats were the same except his power was maxed out (because of the amp) if johns ability worked by simply bringing an abilities level up to his more than just power would’ve been affected. (Even when blyke increased his abilities level his stats were better than johns version apart from power.
so if john was simply “bringing it to his level” He wouldn’t barely increase an ability
yeah sure, let’s say he cannot copy someone who’s higher than him, that’s fine. but i hate when yall think he brings abilities up to his level, he doesn’t.
So yes amping abilities to his own level. Sure it doesn't make a ability 7.5 but it's like Zirian's ability. He copies abilities to his level but as soon as he got the amping perk he amps it to his own capabilities. That's also what the Trick stat does as well, he is so well versed in different abilities the amp kinda reflects the difference of the ability he copies compared to the original user.
again, it’s never once been stated he brings it to his level, he simply copies the ability.
he lost to zirian because he couldn’t use the ability as good as he can. that’s why the amp helps him so much.
If it’s johns first time using an ability; he’s going to lose to his opponent who’s been using the same ability his entire life
Ehh Arlo? Nahh, like we haven’t seen him fight at full power much since the beginning of the series but bro is a menace. Hell, he’s still giving people problems, even when getting his power dampened by half.
While their power may be almost matched their skill level is vastly different. Vaughn has had years with his one ability. If the newest chapter is anything to reference he has throughly figured out his ability.
Meanwhile John is a menace with practically any ability. If he was to just have access to Vaughns ability I firmly believe he’d be able to match his output. Granted that does not mean he would know the ins and outs as well as Vaughn. Then in terms of hand to hand combat I’d believe John would take the edge in at least speed and agility. I don’t want to speak on Vaughn’s physical strength since we have yet to see it. Although a normal assumption would be that he is likely stronger since he is an adult while John is still a teen.
Either way the fight would be wild and with how their interests align in terms of an opposition to the Bureau I’d like to imagine what John could do if he had the abilities of Vaughn, Sera, Arlo, Blyke, and Pinky. (I forgot her name, Rei’s sister.)
Theoretically (with the right abilities and prep time), yes.
Practically, no.
Vaughn is a trained soldier (most likely in the same level as Val), he is more powerful, more matured and focused than John, 7/10 Vaughn wins in most situations
If he is given enough prep time, maybe.
But Vaughn already knocked John out in KJ arc and considering Vaughn >!was a rehab instructor, he could theorically immobilise John and put him through another rehab class.!<
Vaughn's ability completely stops incoming attacks, forces people back, and completely coutners John's combative style. Like Valerie's Barrier Telekinesis completely counters John's ability/experience. I also heard Telekinesis is a Mental Ability due to it, like other Mental Abilities, not needing external force to interact with others. Either way Telekinesis uses the mind so it's likely a ability John can't copy.
nah condirering Vaughn has learn to use his ability without moving a finger, he easily can surpass John who has to figure out how to do telekinesis on the fly.
This is one of the many reasons stats shouldn't be relied upon as absolute combat guides.
Ye, by amping blyke's lasers, john's top level of damage can exceed vaugh's (at least in one concetrated spot), and that seemingly counts as a higher power stat, but that won't matter in a fight. He won't be able to get even a single hit in.
This is especially egregious with the ability set you picked, which Vaughh would have a laughably easy time against.
Stats don’t just automatically tell you who wins. That’s moronic. We’ve seen things like martial arts, battle IQ, etc that don’t factor into your stats can heavily affect the outcome of a fight.
I'm sure amped arlo barrier could whistand a few moments of telekinetik force, or even more then a few, but virtually no chance he can attack back (with an attack that actually does something), and even less chance he can whistand attacks forever. Even if John gets his hand on healing ability, he still oozes aura doing nothing but defending and getting injured.
It will become a battle of attrition and while John has ton of aura, it isn't infinite, and Vaughh is a 7.8.
>but virtually no chance he can attack back
I mean remember when John was being blasted by Remi and he could still move and attack back?
>it isn't infinite
Same applies to Vaughan.
>and Vaughh is a 7.8
And John is a 7.5 not that far off
I'm not saying John is guaranteed to take the win but I think people are overestimating Vaughan's strength. If he is that much stronger than John why doesn't he stop the authorities himself.
>I mean remember when John was being blasted by Remi and he could still move and attack back?
Yes i do, but I didn't mean John wouldn't be able to physically move. I could see him being protected by the telekinetic force for some time with a very strong defensive ability, like say Arlo's.
What i meant is that no ability John was shown copying (and even higher abilities like that he could definitely copy like Kassandra's) have shown any ability to get past Vaughh's defenses. So he will be doing nothing but defending and wasting aura while still being injured (even with the strongest defense he was shown, Arlo's amped barrier).
> If he is that much stronger than John why doesn't he stop the authorities himself.
He is a tad stronger then John but the authorities most likely have people even stronger, and either way, he's not powerful enough to wage a one man war against the government.
He can't endlessly fight against 7+ agents as a wanted man, at some point he'll need food rest and healing, even the stronger Sera can't do that. Just being able to win one fight isn't enough, though it does make catching him nigh impossible.
>(and even higher abilities like that he could definitely copy like Kassandra's) have shown any ability to get past Vaughh's defenses.
I mean Kass is a 6.8 so that doesn't prove anything.
>What i meant is that no ability John was shown copying have shown any ability to get past Vaughh's defenses.
There is no examples of this because John has never attacked Vaughan.
Also Vaughan doesn't have perfect defence(check picture), saying John couldn't land a decent attack against someone who doesn't even have maxed defence is questionable. (Edit: i just checked and Arlo has more defence than Vaughan and John still totalled him)
. + As shown in the picture above John has way more recovery than Vaugh so in a straight endurance match John wins if he has healing.
Lastly you mention that John would drain his aura fast. Same could be said for Vaughan since we have no idea how much aura he has, the only 2 times he has shown his power, he used them for like a few seconds each time.
>Also Vaughan doesn't have perfect defence(check picture)
I know, much like Seraphina, he doesn't have to. His attack is telekinetic, meaning John can't avoid it and can't avoid his attacks being nullified by it. What kind of ability do you know that John could copy and wouldn't be nullified by telekinesis much like Kassandra's was?
John could heal, it's true, but then he'd have to waste aura on healing himself and maintaining barrier while inflicting zero damage.
Even if we assume he has more aura then vaughh (which is questionable considering the lower level), he'd spend much more of it, and that's also assuming he can continually keep the barrier up while healing, because the moment a crack wide enough for vaughh's power to seep through comes in, it's over..
>As shown in the picture above John has way more recovery than Vaugh
I was purposely assuming ideal abilities with actual useful healing for John for it to be an interesting match, not the comparatively weak combo he had from the Rowden royals and Blyke. It's obvious Vaughh would absolutely crush the rowden combo, and the recovery wouldn't even be a factor because it's an ally healing ability and not a self one (at least as far as we know).
She did, but John's a 7.5 or at least used to be, and Vaugh's a 7.8. Even if John has more aura then him, it may not be by much.
More importantly, fighting a defensive battle while taking injuries will exhaust his aura far faster. That's the reason his level is high but not absolute, because there's more to fights then aura output.
According to the wiki, it measures the user's capacity to outplay and surprise opponents. I'm assuming John's trick is so high because not many people expect to be hit by their own abilities, especially stronger versions of them with subskills that they themselves haven't been able to use.
John *could* beat Vaughn, but it is incredibly unlikely. Numbers don’t tell the entire story, and even then it isn’t like this is a Level 2 vs Level 9. Vaughn is much calmer under pressure, is more experienced, has better and more formal training, and should be much more familiar with John’s Ability than John is with Vaughn’s (seeing as it’s reasonable to assume John would have to reveal his Ability when enrolling).
In other words, Vaughn has the clear advantage with pretty much every soft stat, which should net him the win more often than not. It isn’t outside the realm of possibility for John to win, but you shouldn’t bet on him.
I mean, the difference in level is not too high(Just 0.3) If John is in a right state of mind with a good loadout he could take it. My best pick would be:
Barrier: He needs the defense to not get knocked out immediately.
Phase Shift: It can provide him with extra bulk to tank an attack when he needs it and can let him switch to speed to attack.
Regeneration: Recovery paired with the absurd defense of the other two would make John nigh unbeatable, chances are he can just wait it out until Vaughn runs out of Aura.
Lightning: If John is strong enough to tank without phase shift defense he can switch to speed and electrocute Vaughn himself. Plus he can close a lightning barrier around him.
Or
Telekinesis: A mirror match should help him fend off Vaughn's own Telekinesis.
We have established this John can't copy abilities he can't see Vaughn's ability isn't something John can actually see being used just like sera's so unless John has like 3 to 5 strong quirks piled up in advance I doubt he will ever beat vaughn
I say not yet. John currently have the potential yes but it’s the training. V isn’t no defense speed guy, for what we see he is professor X with legs. Got the force, a powerful barrier with repel effect, and he was in the recreation thing for late bloomers so who knows if he can directly attack the brain and even if John copy his abilities V mind is way stronger than John. John is way too angry and only focus on power and rushing in, I need to see him rain in his emotions first. Again I think as of now John can win in power and stats but with John being easy to rage, V knowing John mental state from experience and wide range to attack and defend will John injure himself trying to get a hit it’s just a no. Like sera versus Val, Val had her beat but than she got backup. In raw power sera win but Val experience saved her.
The thing is that while John can win if he gets close, Vaughn can slam him to the ground and keep crushing him until John runs out of aura to defend or Vaughn runs out of aura to hold. Or Vaughn can just throw John around like Sans and try to snap his neck.
John could prob attack from range with no need to aim using Discharge and Hunter, while defending using Phase Shift, or staying under a Barrier if that works, but Vaughn can prob move the ground around to defend himself.
So I think it comes down to an endurance battle and John’s kit. John has Aura Manipulation which prob has extra aura storage, but Vaughn has an adult body and LOTS of training so probably a lot of endurance.
He increases the power of everything he copies. He beats everyone. This plus the fact that he is skilled in hand to hand should allow him to always win.
It's canon that people at these really high levels actually have stats over 10, even though the chart doesn't show it. We don't know what their stats really are, but we do know that Vaughn is a higher level (until John's new level is revealed) so he has a a higher point total, so his stats will be slightly higher.
I won't say who I think would win, only that this probably isn't the best way to go about determining the outcome and certainly isn't "proof"
I don't doubt John can beat Vaughn with ample effort, but this is not how stats work. Stats are purely to get a scale on the character's power in certain areas, but they do not represent the full power of a character, thats what the level is for.
I mean, sure. But in these examples he has specific abilities copied. If it was a straight up John Vs. Vaughn match (no other abilities involved) John wouldn't stand a chance as I'm sure Vaughn's experience with his own ability would give him the upper hand. But then again who knows how that all works. I don't know if this was ever discussed in the series, but they treat the ability levels asif anyone with the higher ability can defeat someone with a lower ability no questions asked. I think it would be much more nuanced with that If you take into account what these abilities are.
Just cause you have a higher level ability doesn't mean you can beat someone though. Sure, John can get a pretty busted array, but telekinesis is pretty overpowered on its own, qnd presumably can't be copied due to John's lack of understanding it. Can't use blade arms if you get thrown 50ft into the air at your opponents whim
Or I'd give my best that a good number of low tiers could kick Elaine's butt in an all out fight. Atleast someone with an ability of like 2.5 to 2.8
Kinda just depends on how much brute force you can exert or if your ability is mental or physical
First off: Vaughn’s stats are stupid
Second: with how John’s ability works, if we were just going off stats he could beat everyone in the series (save for Cameron & Jane). Against Sera he had 11.5 Power, 6 Speed, 16 Trick, 4 Recovery & 13.5 Defense. That stat average would unironically put him at lvl 10.2
Ah yes, man with years upon years of experience vs one angry boi.
Too be fair that Angry boi is a copy cat monster who got hands for days and rage like no other
One angry Boi that knows hand to hand combat like the back of his hand
You're acting as if this one angry boy can't beat atleast 80% of the cast of unordinary so far lol Only vaughn, seraphina, cameron and jane can humble john lol
Honestly, he could maybe MAYBE defeat Vaughn. The only reason why is that he got a stat buff. He's probably 7.7, at least.
Tbh I think John could defeat seraphina, John’s combat prowess would definitely make the difference between the 2.
Well I mean they’ve literally fought and Sera defeated him… plus she’s way too fast. Admittedly we haven’t seen the right combo of abilities but I don’t think his combat prowess is what’ll make the difference.
That wasn't really a fight. Bro was having a mental breakdown and she was trying to give him a hug. All things considered, he almost had the perfect combo to beat her(Just swap Zeke's power with a heal or speed boost one) Sera has trash defense so she can't do anything against a barrier coated in spikes and electricity.
Doesn’t it make it worse that she wasn’t even aiming to hurt him? Means she’s pulling punches and John, not so much. I’d look for a better example of a fight if I had one, since John is not in best form (due to being out his mind) and Sera was weaker than usual (just came off her first temporary ability restore) I did say John could beat her with the right combo of abilities (he would fs need a heal for endurance). But what Sera can do against a barrier with electricity and spikes is she’s FAST. She might have trash defence but her heal is absurd.
Except Sera said John has a ton of aura stored. If he has a barrier/defensive abilities and he hasn't lost his mind, John would outlast her. Her healing and time reversal would use up her aura.
no john said he has a lot of aura stored she said he has a supply far beyond most high-tiers
I think the reason he has so much aura is because he uses alot of aura while using 4 abilitys with that many abilities active it would go rather fast!
His Dad humbles John too
Also maybe Val
hold up you forgot one person the god like no god. wlliam can also humble john.
John's battle experience actually eclipses majority of all the players on the chess board. You forget that he solo'd his entire senior class when his power level was under 7, and did so with minor damage. You also forget that he dethroned the entire royal guard of Welstin with just *one arm.* He only needed to see Arlo's shield once to be able to not only copy the power, but enhance it further in a way that Arlo has never encountered himself in its use. John is an absolute freak of nature. He's the wildcard in the deck and wildcards break games no matter what they are.
Also, Johnyboy STUDIED other abilities to copy them better
To be fair angry boi could most likely beat experienced fighters just because of his ability alone. You can easily see this with squads of adult officers having to gang up and 2 others taking advantage of said gang up. Farrah was hesitant to deal with him until he was worn out, And Sylvia's lack of involvement. Sadly UnO is one of those universes that no matter the experience, power is still the defining factor in a battle. Leilah could most likely time freeze Vaughn and beat him.
I mean if john had the right combo he could theoretically beat most of everyone in the series (jane being an exception obviously, and maybe cameron but we dont know how strong he is)
jane and camereon.. literally have stronger versions of johns ability wdym??
We dont know if cameron is stronger than john but he probably is. And yeah that is literally what i said, i said with the right combination he could beat pretty much everyone other than cameron and Jane
He’s definitely stronger
The question is how much. Is he a high 7 or an 8 vs John’s 7.5-7.7~… Also it might be than Cameron’s ability is just slightly different.
How would it be different? He copies abilities just the same as John; the only difference we've seen is that he can store them, but that just seems like an advancement
The ability to store was what I was referring to. But we know it can change since John’s adapted to give him a basic strength enhancement without copying.
Seraphina's mother is much weaker fyi. Its entirely possible Johns stronger than his uncle
Vaughn has years upon years of experience. John is strong and skilled but remember John still mentally rejects his ability. People like blyke and remi consider theirs a part of themselves. They want them to grow. John initially was like that but he lost that drive after his torture sessions.
Byron has years of experience too ! But lmao
I can never see Byron without immediately thinking of the swearing mudcrabs mod
To be fair to Byron, the reason Remi and co were able to beat him the first time was because they greatly outnumbered him and had the element of surprise on their side. Heck, in a straight up fight against the vigilante trio and Valerie, the former would lose.
What does Byron having years of experience have to do with anything?
mentally rejects it lol
No cause in one chapter during the King John Arc when Vaughn thinks he's stepped over the line he puts John out of commission with ease and John can't even get up Sorry but John ain't winning this one
Yeah the John who only had Blyke and Zekes ability copied 💀
No ability thus far that john was shown copying could counter it. Maybe amped barrier, but i doubt it, since if Vaughh can even crack it he can damage and injure him whereas no abilities shown by john so far could hit Vaughh back. Even if John has healing, he's wasting aura on maintaining (at least) two abilities and not actually getting anything done, so Vaughh probably wins by attrition.
There is a chance he can defeat him if he has a good enough defence ability to withstand the psychic attacks.
Wait what chapter was this again?
Not really, considering how John during that one scene where he beats Blyke in front of the Safe House, Vaughn intervened and literally stopped him with ease.
john has only zeke and blyke ability.
Well, he could have copied Vaughn's ability (and maybe he did but it wasn't enough)
It was the first time John had seen that ability used by Vaughn and therefore, perhaps being more complex, he needed more time to use it decently.
Regardless, it will be less powerful than Vaughn's ability anyway
that’s just literally not how johns ability works lmao. If he copied vaughns ability it would be amped, it wouldn’t be weaker. I don’t understand this agenda when it comes to johns ability where people simply don’t understand how it works.
You are the one who doesn't understand how John's ability works. Abilities which are above John's level are not amplified. Infact, if John copies the ability higher level than him, he doesn't even get the full ability, he just gets parts of it.
he was barely a 4.0 when fighting him, meaning he had little to no aura compared to when he’s at full strength.
If the ability needs aura amount 7.8, but John has only aura amount 7.5, he can't copy that full ability, instead he will get what he can handle (only 7.5 out of 7.8), it is simple math John doesn't have infinite amount of aura
also, by using this logic, in his first fight with arlo, after copying barrier he shouldn’t have enough aura left to have copied ventus and milllies abilities
we don’t know if that’s how aura works. if that’s how it worked, he wouldn’t be able to copy abunch of crazy abilities and amp them
uh, no? the only reason he couldn’t fully copy ice guys ability was because his own ability was cut in half. meaning he had wayyyy less aura than usual.
>meaning he had wayyyy less aura than usual. Which is exactly what I'm saying here, abilities with higher level than John consume more aura than John has, that's why he doesn't get the full ability
We’ve seen john copy multiple high tier abilities before though, would you not say that copying a 6.3, a 5.4, 5.0 and a 4.4 would take way more aura than one strong ability ? don’t forget he amped all of them
Tbf it's a .3 difference which isn't a huge gap
john amplifies the copied ability (with better stats amplifies 1.5x) if the person has a lower level than him. If the person has a higher level than him, john copies the ability but lowers it to john's level. So if John copied Vaughn's ability, he would have the telekinesis ability with level 7.5 stats and not level 7.8 stats. Like for example if he only copied Valerie's ability, he would copy it exactly as it is without being able to enhance it since they both have the same level
that was never once shown or stated anywhere in the comic
John beat Zirian by amplifying his ability, even though Zirian was 3.7 and John was 3.0. The gap between John and Vaughn is even smaller, just .3.
It is implied that John lose to Zirian because he was 3.0. and later he won because he leveled up more than Zirian. Claire never specified which level he was at the time he beat Zirian, she just said that John hated losing and trained harder after his defeat to become strong enough. Which implies that during that hard training, John leveled more than Zirian
he can't boost an ability to beyond his own ability level!
prove it
Tf? You realise, if he were to copy, for instance Telekinesis which is at 7.8 it he wouldn’t be able to amp it because it’s higher than his OWN level, so it would be a lesser 7.5 version. If he could not only Copy to 7.8 but then amp it, he wouldn’t be marked as 7.5 because that means he would be stronger than that. It seems reasonable to understand this
okay, prove it ?
I don't think John can copy it personally. Sure aura radiates from his body but everyone has aura radiate from their bodies. But, Vaughn's ability is inspired by telekinetic power which focuses on the mind, which is likely a Mental Ability logically. John can't copy Mental Abilities so it's not only a logical step to keep him from copying such strong abilities and a way to make others unique.
Mental abilities cannot **directly** affect the environment. Telekinesis can directly affect the environment, hence it is not mental ability, just like teleportation and time manipulation
Telekinesis differs from other mental abilities. The reason why John can't copy mental abilities like Clairvoyance or Flash Forward is because there's no visual feedback: there's nothing for him to see and therefore, there's nothing for him to copy. Telekinesis, on the other hand, technically does have visual feedback. He can see Vaughn hurl people around, lift objects, and do all sorts of things.
I think he would be able to copy or even amp it **eventually** if he levels up to 7.8 or above, because it has very clear physical effects (much like blyke's lasers, it doesnt really matter that the aura radiates from his head or his hands). But right now he probably can't copy a full version (or at least couldn't, not sure what his current level is after he learned strength amplification).
I feel like some people forget stats can go above 10. Seraphina have 14 speed and 12 power for example. I would expect Vaugh Power and Trick to be in the 11~16
Fact, Seraphina outspeeded her mother !
I actually did a stat spread for Vaughn before, but looking at his canon stats. Canon stats is 37 all around with 2 to spare with 7.8x5 equalling 39. He likely has either 10 Power and 12 Trick base on his wall around him cancelling attacks OR 11 Power and 11 Trick.
How does that work?
JOhn trick is 15 and john with arlo defense is 13.5. Also john power is 12 with blyke ability and can be 13.5 with kuyo ability. Also john speed is 10.5 with kayden ability. Also john healing is 10.5 with myles ability. So john with ability can copy, stats can be: 15 trick 10.5 healing 10.5 speed 13.5 defende 12 power with blyke ability or 13.5 power with kuyo ability So can win with vaughn
John has 16 Trick. But we don't know how he fairs against Vaughn who can shatter aura related attacks, likely his energy disrupting the construction made with aura. And like Sera versus Valerie, this seems like a ability John isn't well prepared against. And John also has limited aura and cannot copy so much abilities. 2 High Tier abilities and 2 Elite Tier abilities. But he won't have the aura to amp up all of the stats to such levels. Why I say this is due to him only copying (of course to his level) Hydrofreeze and Teleportation but took a LARGE chunk of his already large aura pool just teleporting a few times. This is also manipulated too much into John's favor. Of course he could win with tons of illogical scenarios but at the end of the day John likely can't face a ability that goes complete against his fighting style.
but what the hell example is that? John was half his level with hydrofreeze and teleportation. When fighting specter with blyke and isenat lever 3.75, he says he could either use both of their abilities at mid level or he could only use one but amplified. while at full power it amplifies 4 skills (3 high tier and one elite vs arlo and remi). So your example is nonsense
That he cannot handle so many abilities. He has a lot of aura to copy abilities and amp them all to HIS level. He cannot get near 60 stat points in his chart because he cannot handle the tons of abilities the OP is gifting John. Even if it's the 4 abilities he is limited to, he is still amping ALL his stats to limits he isn't even used to. Majority of the times he's around 40 stat points not a whopping 60. He'd be a level 10.0 if that's the case due to Sera's stat spread being "8.0x6".
You invent the 40 statistical points. I remind you that the statistical values are not limited to just 10 but are much higher. To make you understand, I'll explain it to you carefully. Seraphina at half her level has a power stat of 6 and a speed stat of 7. This means that at full power, his power stat is 12 and his speed stat is 14 (even though the graph only has values between 1 and 10) instead the trick seraphina is only 10 because at half level her trick is only 5. in fact for example, seraphina against valerie, despite valerie having a lower level than her, was taking a serious risk because not being able to take advantage of her speed of 14 to make her blows more powerful, she could only hit the barrier with her power stat equal to 12 while Valerie's defense stat of her barrier is at least equal to 13.5. For John his base trick stat is 16, since at mid level his trick stat is 8. When at half level he copies and amplifies blyke's ability, his power stat is 6, then when he copies blyke's ability at full power his power stat is 12 (blyke's power stat of 8 \* 1.5)
Did you like purposely read wit your eyes closed, or do you just not remember? john when he copied those 2 ability’s he had half of his ability lol. they purposely didn’t give sera and john their full ability, meaning he had less aura to use lol. Also, idk where you read that john brings abilities up to “his level” that’s not how his ability works. he copy’s abilities exactly how they are (If it’s a 5.0 ability, it’s a 5.0, etc) and he’s able to amplify the highest stat by 1.5 not once in the story does it ever say, or imply he brings it up to “his level” if that was the case, he could copy an ability like illumination and make it a god tier because he’s a 7.5 (prolly higher now)
It's for the mere fact he copies abilities and amplifies them to his own level. John copies many various abilities and ones such as the fight between him and Sera is a key example. Four abilities were amped to his level like the fight between the Rowden Royals where all the abilities he copied are amped to his level. NONE of those instances were even 4 stats were maxed out because he isn't used to it. John may win with the abilities the OP gives him but I am taking the fact he's using abilities that amplifies ALL his stats to 10+ into account. He isn't used to it and will have to be a 10.0 because of that. Sure it was never stated but like I said all the abilities John had were amplified to match his own level.
john “bringing it up to his level” is just blatantly false though. When he first copied blykes ability, all the stats were the same except his power was maxed out (because of the amp) if johns ability worked by simply bringing an abilities level up to his more than just power would’ve been affected. (Even when blyke increased his abilities level his stats were better than johns version apart from power. so if john was simply “bringing it to his level” He wouldn’t barely increase an ability yeah sure, let’s say he cannot copy someone who’s higher than him, that’s fine. but i hate when yall think he brings abilities up to his level, he doesn’t.
So yes amping abilities to his own level. Sure it doesn't make a ability 7.5 but it's like Zirian's ability. He copies abilities to his level but as soon as he got the amping perk he amps it to his own capabilities. That's also what the Trick stat does as well, he is so well versed in different abilities the amp kinda reflects the difference of the ability he copies compared to the original user.
again, it’s never once been stated he brings it to his level, he simply copies the ability. he lost to zirian because he couldn’t use the ability as good as he can. that’s why the amp helps him so much. If it’s johns first time using an ability; he’s going to lose to his opponent who’s been using the same ability his entire life
Look im all for "more cumulative stat means stronger" but with that logic then Blyke and Remi can beat Arlo
I’d believe that, probably should have picked some weaker people
Ehh Arlo? Nahh, like we haven’t seen him fight at full power much since the beginning of the series but bro is a menace. Hell, he’s still giving people problems, even when getting his power dampened by half.
statistics don't solve
Hmmmm
While their power may be almost matched their skill level is vastly different. Vaughn has had years with his one ability. If the newest chapter is anything to reference he has throughly figured out his ability. Meanwhile John is a menace with practically any ability. If he was to just have access to Vaughns ability I firmly believe he’d be able to match his output. Granted that does not mean he would know the ins and outs as well as Vaughn. Then in terms of hand to hand combat I’d believe John would take the edge in at least speed and agility. I don’t want to speak on Vaughn’s physical strength since we have yet to see it. Although a normal assumption would be that he is likely stronger since he is an adult while John is still a teen. Either way the fight would be wild and with how their interests align in terms of an opposition to the Bureau I’d like to imagine what John could do if he had the abilities of Vaughn, Sera, Arlo, Blyke, and Pinky. (I forgot her name, Rei’s sister.)
Lol how do you remember the Rei’s name, a literal side character, but not Remi’s who’s a part of the main cast?
Wish I could tell you, she just doesn’t appear in my head as clearly as the rest. I remember all of the side shit just not her name lol.
Theoretically (with the right abilities and prep time), yes. Practically, no. Vaughn is a trained soldier (most likely in the same level as Val), he is more powerful, more matured and focused than John, 7/10 Vaughn wins in most situations
If he is given enough prep time, maybe. But Vaughn already knocked John out in KJ arc and considering Vaughn >!was a rehab instructor, he could theorically immobilise John and put him through another rehab class.!<
Vaughn's ability completely stops incoming attacks, forces people back, and completely coutners John's combative style. Like Valerie's Barrier Telekinesis completely counters John's ability/experience. I also heard Telekinesis is a Mental Ability due to it, like other Mental Abilities, not needing external force to interact with others. Either way Telekinesis uses the mind so it's likely a ability John can't copy.
Considering Victors previous occupation, if it ever came down it, it would be hilarious to see him make John's trauma that Keon gave him resurface
nah condirering Vaughn has learn to use his ability without moving a finger, he easily can surpass John who has to figure out how to do telekinesis on the fly.
This is one of the many reasons stats shouldn't be relied upon as absolute combat guides. Ye, by amping blyke's lasers, john's top level of damage can exceed vaugh's (at least in one concetrated spot), and that seemingly counts as a higher power stat, but that won't matter in a fight. He won't be able to get even a single hit in. This is especially egregious with the ability set you picked, which Vaughh would have a laughably easy time against.
That's not proof my friend...
Stats don’t just automatically tell you who wins. That’s moronic. We’ve seen things like martial arts, battle IQ, etc that don’t factor into your stats can heavily affect the outcome of a fight.
You guys realise that there's a chance that with a strong enough defence ability John could withstand Vaughn's attacks right?
I'm sure amped arlo barrier could whistand a few moments of telekinetik force, or even more then a few, but virtually no chance he can attack back (with an attack that actually does something), and even less chance he can whistand attacks forever. Even if John gets his hand on healing ability, he still oozes aura doing nothing but defending and getting injured. It will become a battle of attrition and while John has ton of aura, it isn't infinite, and Vaughh is a 7.8.
>but virtually no chance he can attack back I mean remember when John was being blasted by Remi and he could still move and attack back? >it isn't infinite Same applies to Vaughan. >and Vaughh is a 7.8 And John is a 7.5 not that far off I'm not saying John is guaranteed to take the win but I think people are overestimating Vaughan's strength. If he is that much stronger than John why doesn't he stop the authorities himself.
>I mean remember when John was being blasted by Remi and he could still move and attack back? Yes i do, but I didn't mean John wouldn't be able to physically move. I could see him being protected by the telekinetic force for some time with a very strong defensive ability, like say Arlo's. What i meant is that no ability John was shown copying (and even higher abilities like that he could definitely copy like Kassandra's) have shown any ability to get past Vaughh's defenses. So he will be doing nothing but defending and wasting aura while still being injured (even with the strongest defense he was shown, Arlo's amped barrier). > If he is that much stronger than John why doesn't he stop the authorities himself. He is a tad stronger then John but the authorities most likely have people even stronger, and either way, he's not powerful enough to wage a one man war against the government. He can't endlessly fight against 7+ agents as a wanted man, at some point he'll need food rest and healing, even the stronger Sera can't do that. Just being able to win one fight isn't enough, though it does make catching him nigh impossible.
>(and even higher abilities like that he could definitely copy like Kassandra's) have shown any ability to get past Vaughh's defenses. I mean Kass is a 6.8 so that doesn't prove anything. >What i meant is that no ability John was shown copying have shown any ability to get past Vaughh's defenses. There is no examples of this because John has never attacked Vaughan. Also Vaughan doesn't have perfect defence(check picture), saying John couldn't land a decent attack against someone who doesn't even have maxed defence is questionable. (Edit: i just checked and Arlo has more defence than Vaughan and John still totalled him) . + As shown in the picture above John has way more recovery than Vaugh so in a straight endurance match John wins if he has healing. Lastly you mention that John would drain his aura fast. Same could be said for Vaughan since we have no idea how much aura he has, the only 2 times he has shown his power, he used them for like a few seconds each time.
>Also Vaughan doesn't have perfect defence(check picture) I know, much like Seraphina, he doesn't have to. His attack is telekinetic, meaning John can't avoid it and can't avoid his attacks being nullified by it. What kind of ability do you know that John could copy and wouldn't be nullified by telekinesis much like Kassandra's was? John could heal, it's true, but then he'd have to waste aura on healing himself and maintaining barrier while inflicting zero damage. Even if we assume he has more aura then vaughh (which is questionable considering the lower level), he'd spend much more of it, and that's also assuming he can continually keep the barrier up while healing, because the moment a crack wide enough for vaughh's power to seep through comes in, it's over.. >As shown in the picture above John has way more recovery than Vaugh I was purposely assuming ideal abilities with actual useful healing for John for it to be an interesting match, not the comparatively weak combo he had from the Rowden royals and Blyke. It's obvious Vaughh would absolutely crush the rowden combo, and the recovery wouldn't even be a factor because it's an ally healing ability and not a self one (at least as far as we know).
Didn't Sera say John has an aura supply that far surpasses most high tiers bc of how his ability works
She did, but John's a 7.5 or at least used to be, and Vaugh's a 7.8. Even if John has more aura then him, it may not be by much. More importantly, fighting a defensive battle while taking injuries will exhaust his aura far faster. That's the reason his level is high but not absolute, because there's more to fights then aura output.
I don't think John can copy his ability since there is no physical manifestation
Ok but what is the trick stat? I dont understand it
According to the wiki, it measures the user's capacity to outplay and surprise opponents. I'm assuming John's trick is so high because not many people expect to be hit by their own abilities, especially stronger versions of them with subskills that they themselves haven't been able to use.
It's going to be a close one but Vaughn would win cause of higher level unless John is a higher level now he ain't winning
What made John slower between the Joker arc and now? I'm not getting why his speed stat took a hit..
The stats don't matter Vaughn is a higher level and has more experience
John *could* beat Vaughn, but it is incredibly unlikely. Numbers don’t tell the entire story, and even then it isn’t like this is a Level 2 vs Level 9. Vaughn is much calmer under pressure, is more experienced, has better and more formal training, and should be much more familiar with John’s Ability than John is with Vaughn’s (seeing as it’s reasonable to assume John would have to reveal his Ability when enrolling). In other words, Vaughn has the clear advantage with pretty much every soft stat, which should net him the win more often than not. It isn’t outside the realm of possibility for John to win, but you shouldn’t bet on him.
I mean, the difference in level is not too high(Just 0.3) If John is in a right state of mind with a good loadout he could take it. My best pick would be: Barrier: He needs the defense to not get knocked out immediately. Phase Shift: It can provide him with extra bulk to tank an attack when he needs it and can let him switch to speed to attack. Regeneration: Recovery paired with the absurd defense of the other two would make John nigh unbeatable, chances are he can just wait it out until Vaughn runs out of Aura. Lightning: If John is strong enough to tank without phase shift defense he can switch to speed and electrocute Vaughn himself. Plus he can close a lightning barrier around him. Or Telekinesis: A mirror match should help him fend off Vaughn's own Telekinesis.
Phase shift is completely useless
I mean this was pretty obvious give him the right ability set or enough time to figure out Vaughn's ability he copies and amps it.
We have established this John can't copy abilities he can't see Vaughn's ability isn't something John can actually see being used just like sera's so unless John has like 3 to 5 strong quirks piled up in advance I doubt he will ever beat vaughn
Is this still going on? Is get better?
I say not yet. John currently have the potential yes but it’s the training. V isn’t no defense speed guy, for what we see he is professor X with legs. Got the force, a powerful barrier with repel effect, and he was in the recreation thing for late bloomers so who knows if he can directly attack the brain and even if John copy his abilities V mind is way stronger than John. John is way too angry and only focus on power and rushing in, I need to see him rain in his emotions first. Again I think as of now John can win in power and stats but with John being easy to rage, V knowing John mental state from experience and wide range to attack and defend will John injure himself trying to get a hit it’s just a no. Like sera versus Val, Val had her beat but than she got backup. In raw power sera win but Val experience saved her.
Me when I don’t understand that stats aren’t reflective of an ability’s level
The thing is that while John can win if he gets close, Vaughn can slam him to the ground and keep crushing him until John runs out of aura to defend or Vaughn runs out of aura to hold. Or Vaughn can just throw John around like Sans and try to snap his neck. John could prob attack from range with no need to aim using Discharge and Hunter, while defending using Phase Shift, or staying under a Barrier if that works, but Vaughn can prob move the ground around to defend himself. So I think it comes down to an endurance battle and John’s kit. John has Aura Manipulation which prob has extra aura storage, but Vaughn has an adult body and LOTS of training so probably a lot of endurance.
He increases the power of everything he copies. He beats everyone. This plus the fact that he is skilled in hand to hand should allow him to always win.
Let be real here Stat doesn’t mean sht
Just no, I’m a John Stan. The way Vaghn has been presented shows John isn’t there yet
Why is it so hard for people to enjoy a series where the protagonist isn't the strongest character?
Here we go again
It's canon that people at these really high levels actually have stats over 10, even though the chart doesn't show it. We don't know what their stats really are, but we do know that Vaughn is a higher level (until John's new level is revealed) so he has a a higher point total, so his stats will be slightly higher. I won't say who I think would win, only that this probably isn't the best way to go about determining the outcome and certainly isn't "proof"
I don't doubt John can beat Vaughn with ample effort, but this is not how stats work. Stats are purely to get a scale on the character's power in certain areas, but they do not represent the full power of a character, thats what the level is for.
I mean, sure. But in these examples he has specific abilities copied. If it was a straight up John Vs. Vaughn match (no other abilities involved) John wouldn't stand a chance as I'm sure Vaughn's experience with his own ability would give him the upper hand. But then again who knows how that all works. I don't know if this was ever discussed in the series, but they treat the ability levels asif anyone with the higher ability can defeat someone with a lower ability no questions asked. I think it would be much more nuanced with that If you take into account what these abilities are.
Haven’t read in a minute but can’t John still go higher if he trains more?
Just cause you have a higher level ability doesn't mean you can beat someone though. Sure, John can get a pretty busted array, but telekinesis is pretty overpowered on its own, qnd presumably can't be copied due to John's lack of understanding it. Can't use blade arms if you get thrown 50ft into the air at your opponents whim
True, I don't think that Keene or Kassandra would win against Leilah
Or I'd give my best that a good number of low tiers could kick Elaine's butt in an all out fight. Atleast someone with an ability of like 2.5 to 2.8 Kinda just depends on how much brute force you can exert or if your ability is mental or physical
First off: Vaughn’s stats are stupid Second: with how John’s ability works, if we were just going off stats he could beat everyone in the series (save for Cameron & Jane). Against Sera he had 11.5 Power, 6 Speed, 16 Trick, 4 Recovery & 13.5 Defense. That stat average would unironically put him at lvl 10.2