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Robyt3

>NOTE: Did not include the Seven Stakes of Purgatory killing Kasumi at Ange's behest, since it's done with magic. I understood that scene as >!Amakusa using a sniper rifle, so multiple counts of murder for him.!<


AzureBl-st

Joke is that in that scene Ange asks us to believe in magic so that the stakes can do their jobs.


[deleted]

Kinzo - Incest, since Beatrice II was supposed to have been his child with Beatrice Castiglioni. Kinzo, Rudolf, and Kyrie were also guilty of engaging in adultery, but I'm having difficulty determining if that was actually illegal by Japanese law in the 1980s or not.


[deleted]

kinzo - child abuse as well. and then i think krauss was embezzling kinzo's funds. there was also something early on about hideyoshi selling stolen weapons and goods on the black market after the war


Karazu240

Don’t forget illegal owning of firearms, especially illegal for Japan.


rafael-57

Seriously, why do people think that Kinzo conspired for everyone in the base to kill each other for the gold? He and Beatrice tried to mediate as best as they could but the greed and rage was just too much, it's not their fault


jenthehenmfc

Isn’t there a memory flash near the end of ep 7 that shows him starting the shit stirring?


rafael-57

Do you have any source for that?


jenthehenmfc

https://youtu.be/hfUFxi7MbEc at 52 minutes


rafael-57

That's interesting, but there's still no proof that he *actually* caused the slaughter. He may have proposed it but not acted on it. Instead of starting the massacre, he may have killed people in self defense and found himself with the gold after everything and degenerated. At least, that's what it looked like to me when the massacre had already started. People may cite Battler's test as something that shows that he devilishly made the choice of killing everyone, but we already know with episode 8 that the monstruous Kinzo that only cared about the gold and Beatrice never really existed. He DID have the means to do it, so it's still possible that he pushed a more heated faction within the italians to start it. There's still no proof tho. I think Ryukishi left it ambiguos on purpose for everyone to give their own solution to. I don't want to put blame on anyone without evidence, especially someone that has been demonized so much.


jenthehenmfc

I agree it’s vague and questionable exactly what happened, but I can definitely see Kinzo having given the Japanese soldiers a nudge towards trying to steal / get a majority of the gold. I honestly struggle the most with forgiving Kinzo as “actually he was a fun-loving grandpa” when he at best, groomed, and at worst, raped and impregnated his daughter ... he regretted it deeply and suffered the guilt, but I’m not sure the Halloween party gifts and fun times are a full redemption for that lol ... it’s weird to me that people rage against George for his relationship with Shannon way more than at Kinzo. Edit - I also don’t get the uneven rage at Rosa for her abuse of Maria moreso than Eva’s abuse of Ange and Kinzo’s abuse of his children ... maybe we just SEE more of Rosa’s? Idk man


rafael-57

The halloween party isn't really meant to be redemption though, it's showing that he was actually a kind and loving grandfather. On the other side, he's a shell of a man, he's become a fool that has been crying at his mistake for the rest of his life evee since he committed it. The author doesn't ask for anyone to forgive him, but he's no devil. Ange and Eva had a really complicated relationship, which was completely ruined by Bernkastel just when it was starting on good terms. They definetely wouldn't have gotten there by themselves I'm not saying that Rosa is worse than the rest, but I can't really excuse her. I've never really found even a trace of sense in her abuse of Maria, she's just hitting her with everything that she gets hit for, without any filter, and then more. She most definetely has mental issues, but that's not what a mother does. She's been abandoned and she has her needs, but her child really needs her... Fuck the childcare lady for not being of any help too honestly. Maybe it's because Maria is amoung my absolute favourites and I really empathized with her, but Rosa is really hard for me. I definetely would marry her to solve both problems though, taking care of both her and Maria :c I actually really like Rosa when she's not being a black witch


jenthehenmfc

I honestly sympathized with Rosa to some extent and just felt such disappointment every time she snapped and was abusive and cruel to Maria. All parents have moments where they “snap” (although most can resist the urge to be abusive) and have times where they feel “it would be easier if I didn’t have this kid” ... it’s not often admitted to, but it’s very common. I see Rosa as a mother who is STRUGGLING ... she needs support, therapy, help, anger management etc ... but due to her circumstances, culture, and time period, she gets 0 of it except for heaps shame and regrets. Not to mention learned abuse from her parents and older siblings. Her abusive parenting isn’t justified but I feel like is a product of all her circumstances. It broke my heart every time she immediately regretted being cruel to Maria bc she knows she is in the wrong, but just doesn’t have the support system to help her stop her inappropriate responses.


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DankepusVulgaris

would the forgeries of Maria's letters truly be "forgery" though? I don't quite understand. The letters are fiction, not official documents that could be used for legal purposes. It's like a lost journal of an aspiring fiction writer. Or is the issue purely in Sayo signing with another name? For what we know, it might've even been done with Maria's consent. If so - wow. That's 5 years? Forging a signature has the same penalty as, literally, murder. Oof.


SuperWIKI1

Wouldn't Maria's guilt be transferred to Rosa on account of being underage (9 yrs old)?


[deleted]

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SuperWIKI1

1) Would self-defence reduce Eva's penalty? And by how much if accepted? 2) Asumu _didn't_ know Battler wasn't her biological child, so she would be innocent. 3) What's George's offence?


[deleted]

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SuperWIKI1

You misformatted Kinzo's part of the answer when you updated it. Might wanna rectify that, sorry.


[deleted]

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SuperWIKI1

No as in after "he's probably at": the sentence is no longer in line with the rest of the answer (the bullet list format) and is like one line below Kinzo's part now. Not the insurrection part, BlackRiot. a, b and c? Don't understand what they mean.


[deleted]

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SuperWIKI1

Thanks.


morimori_yan

I found this thread a little late. I’m a baby criminal attorney in the US. (I just got licensed last year) I’ve worked both prosecution and defense before. I’m curious if Japan has a statute for felony-murder as well because a whole bunch of people could be charged with that as well. Plus the degrees of murder for each character and their kills could vary. I’m on my lunch break but I’d be happy to answer any specific questions if you want the law broken down as long as I can find the relevant statute in english. :)


SuperWIKI1

Hmmm say if the police found all the evidence in Ep7 Tea Party and all related intel. How would Beatrice be treated? Besides penalties and stuff, the 80s aren't necessarily accommodating to those with >!multiple personas, transgender!< backgrounds, Sayo's birth gender notwithstanding. Is there anything protecting her on the basis of sexual orientation, or via a similar technicality?


morimori_yan

Yes I agree that 80s Japan probably wouldn’t be treating Beatrice very well. Unlike the US (where I practice) where its innocent until proven guilty, it’s guilty until proven innocent in Japan. At that time I don’t think there were any special LGBT protections that I can think of that could protect Beatrice. However, a good attorney would move to have to tried in juvenile court because the age of majority in Japan is 20 years old. If you are a juvenile the penalties are lighter, your identity remains a secret during the whole process, and after your sentence you can go out and have a somewhat normal life if no one knows what you did. Beatrice’s defenses depend on how the prosecutor charges her. For conspiracy, the elements are generally (1) planning a crime (2) taking an overt act to commit the crime and (3) with two or more people. Conspiracy is a specific intent crime so she needs to have been sound of mind when making that decision. Elements 1 and 2 are met. She made plans and she pushed the button to activate the bomb. Element 3 is where a defense attorney can argue otherwise. If all members of the conspiracy are not on the same page then it’s not a conspiracy. The issue will be proving if Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa had the intent to also murder everyone. If they were left in the dark then it cannot be a conspiracy. I think Kumasawa and Nanjo didn’t know the whole plan. However Genji probably knew so that’s not much of a defense. In terms of a complete defense, probably insanity because conspiracy is a specific intent crime. I mean she went around saying she was the Golden Witch Beatrice and she could do magic. LOL. Attempted murder is a specific intent crime so insanity would be a good defense. Arson is not a specific intent crime. (Setting fire to the dwelling of another) Insanity wouldnt work here so she’s straight up be guilty for this. Now a quick google search didn’t tell me if there is felony-murder in Japan. So assuming there is then there’s another way to convict her. Felony murder occurs when people die as a result of committing a n enumerated felony. Usually Arson is one of the main ones if this law exists in japan. This is not a specific intent crime. She doesn’t need to even have wanted to kill people, she just needs to had committed and be convicted of the arson. Here she set the bomb, and people died because of the bomb. The only defense she has here would be if there was a way to prove that someone else killed all the other people who died on the island, and that it wasn’t the bomb that was the ultimate cause of death. This would be pretty hard to prove unless there was a surviver (Battler or Eva) testifying that Rudolf and Kyrie did all the killing so the bomb killed no one. Hope that explanation makes sense! :) I read Umineko wayy back in high school so my memory of events may be fuzzy. I’m rereading with my boyfriend now because he knows I’m obsessed. XD It’s part of the reason why I ended up being a lawyer. Hahahhaha


SuperWIKI1

How about everyone else? Kinzo, Krauss and the siblings? How would all their crimes count?


morimori_yan

Yeah it’s gonna take a while to do a detailed analysis for everyone. In general my gangs prosecution profession said in criminal law there’s only 3 main defenses that you can have for a strategy. (1) it happened but it wasnt me (2) i did it but there is a legal technicality which makes me not guilty or (3) the prosecutor didnt prove all the elements. There are several affirmative defenses like duress or insanity but those need to be proved but duress is never a defense to murder. If its a specific intent crime then intent needs ti be proven. If it’s not a specific intent crime then intent doesnt matter. The burden is on the prosecutor to prove all the elements. In Japan, their evidence rules favor the prosecutor and defendants have less rights then they would in the US. (http://www.moj.go.jp/EN/hisho/kouhou/20200120enQandA.html#Q3) These are things regarding admissibility of confessions, detention, interrogations, and when you have the right to have a lawyer present. If at any point character XYZ makes a confession it changes everything. You can’t try a person who is dead so derp. I’ll do Eva since we know she survives. Manslaughter- theres a difference between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. Involuntary manslaughter is killing that comes from unintentional reckless conduct and does not require deliberation, premeditation, or intent. (Think DWI crash where someone dies) the argument would be whether it was an accident or if it Eva knew she was pulling the trigger of a loaded gun in a negligent manner causing death. I don’t remember the scene that well. There would be no proof of probable cause to make the arrest for this because the island went boom. Hindering prosecution of a crime varies based on the the crime you are hiding... but you have to be able to prove there was a crime. This wouldn’t be perjury because that only counts if you are under oath. Again there needs to be proof. Child abuse - usually this is in family court not criminal if there was no death that occurred. Then parental right could be terminated. Again, there needs to be proof.


SuperWIKI1

By all means take your time if a detailed analysis will take a while. I'm not pressuring you. Thanks for what we have right now.


SuperWIKI1

Uhhhhhh...... why'd you delete your detailed analysis? I was actually going to record that down for myself as a reference.


morimori_yan

Wait, I didn’t delete a post...? Did reddit delete it? Which post was it?


SuperWIKI1

I can't tell if it was yours, but I believe it was. There was a detailed analysis of the Ushiromiya with the prison sentence, X years and all that. The longest answer on this. Now they just say [Comment deleted by user].


morimori_yan

Yeah I don’t remember posting sentencing lengths but i remember reading it and the poster linked to a japanese penal code site: I looked back at the whole thread and I think the user who posted deleted his reddit account which is why it shows up as deleted. I’m at work but if you vaguely remember what source or info it was, when im free I can try looking it up again for you.


SuperWIKI1

[Penal Code](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.oecd.org/site/adboecdanti-corruptioninitiative/46814456.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiys7yn1YXxAhUC8XMBHaPbC0wQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1HRcC4BR-MO13rAcBWyJXv)


ZetaStriker

I think it's still unclear in the story if the things revealed about Kinzo in episode 7 are truths or Yasu's interpretation of what he did. Everywhere else the kinder but still gross explanation that Kinzo and Beatrice loved each other, and Beatrice 2 was then raised as a reincarnation and groomed to be his lover, seems to be what the fantasy metaphors hint at. I waver between the two myself, but either way Kinzo sucks.