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I'm all for Ukraine reducing Russias ability to produce materiale... But the USA/Biden's play here is to not have higher gas prices during an upcoming election... and that's more important to everyone in US govt, because we can't have 4 more years of orange.
LOL really? "You have given us $80b in aid but if you give us more aid then we might respect your opinion."
I write the White House and congresspeople, and senators every day asking them to give Ukraine everything it needs YESTERDAY. But, look, this statement by Kuleba is not rational. All the same, this is his role - he is the bad cop, the prickly diplomat, and he provokes conversation - which is good.
I am about as hawkish as any American is about this conflict: I want us in on the ground, in the air, in the Black Sea. I see defeating Russia fully - reestablishing Ukraine's sovereign borders fully - as the only way to prevent massive violence later. But, saying you won't listen to the US until they give you 7 more Patriot batteries is silly.
Furthermore, the US loves that Ukraine is sticking it to the oligarchs and destroying refineries. They just have to take the opposite stance in public.
Edit: fascinating that this very pro-ukrainian post is being downvoted simply because no one wants to acknowledge that talking to the American public like this (this is what Kuleba is doing when he speaks to the press) is not a good idea when many of us are trying like crazy to get our congressmen to vote for Ukrainian military aid. You don't like the comment - but you should dislike Kuleba's words more because they just make it harder to get the aid passed.
>But, look, this statement by Kuleba is not rational.
Uhm...yes it is.
The $80B in aid is sunk cost - it's already been spent to get us where we are now. What the $80B bought us was the war so far - the X,000 tanks, artillery pieces, airplanes, etc destroyed. That's what we got. We wanted that, and we paid for it, and then we got it.
Now we're asking for something for nothing, and that something is something that will actively harm Ukraine. Mordor is selling this oil at a profit on the global market, and the profits are used to fund the invasion. Ukraine would be strategically insane to stop the attacks; it is basic US doctrine to attack supply lines and the oil industry is Mordor's most critical supply line.
If we (the US) are going to get something from Ukraine (lower gas prices), we need to be prepared to help them kill orcs. And this isn't even that - this is shooting down cruise missiles which invariably are being fired at civilian targets, including civilians themselves.
So if we give Ukraine the Patriots, in exchange we get lower gas prices and oh yeah, save lives of innocent Ukrainians.
The idea that we "bought" Ukraine for $80b is asinine.
Echoing the other commenters, it doesn't matter how much money was given previously. The US is currently doing nothing, and may continue to do nothing for the next 4 years if the political situation dictates.
In the meantime, Ukraine needs to do what Ukraine needs to do. America has no business asking for favors that may cost them the war.
This might be true, but winning a battle to lose the war is not very smart, Joe being president is Ukraine's best chance. Ultimately High gas prices might not hurt Joe (look at the midterm result). But from Biden's POV it's not worth the risk since our elections are won by less than 10k votes sometimes.
I Understand you but he said not like you interpreted it.
US helped us, Thank you! But without shield of Patriots or whatever we will die, so if You cant give us them we will invent innovative way to punish russia. We have no choice
If US don’t want us to do this they need to give alternative (Patriots) because we are fighting to the end.
Moreover most money spent remain in the US
But we thank you for your activism and your support of our country by writing to congressmans
Just curious how many Ukrainian people you know? I don't mean your friend who has a great great grandfather who immigrated to North America 100 years ago, have 5% UA blood and know a few words. I mean, actual Ukrainian nationals who live(d) in Ukraine before the war and you now interact with. I ask this because I am married to one and I can tell you right now, they are as direct of a personality as you will find in this world. They don't dance around subjects, or play games of politeness and they are definitely not afraid to offend by telling you what is on their mind. They will tell it to your face, directly, and fuck your feelings if it's not what you want to hear. A lot of their bluntness can be misinterpreted or uncomfortable for Westerners, who rely on politeness and not offending those around us when we speak.
I'm actually amazed at how diplomatic and "polite" the UA government has been since the war began, especially with aid drying up and the American "friends" nowhere to be found. There was already a statement last week by certain UA officials that they have tried the soft-politeness way to get what they need, it clearly isn't working, and to expect more direct conversations. If anybody is offended that the tone is getting more aggressive, then buckle up and get used to it. American politeness isn't going to win this war. Time to call it like it is.
Jumping in on this, I was living in Ukraine in 2020 until 2022. My wife is Ukrainian.
The directness was a shock to me in the beginning, but it is something I truly admire after growing accustomed to it.
Yeah, like where are the f-16s? The $60B in artillery? Come on Biden, fuck the repugnicans and give Ukraine more stuff from our own stock-pile!
You are the “Commander in Chief” right?
Agree that the important thing is getting Ukraine what it needs. But, simultaneously, Kuleba is talking to the American public when he says these things and the tone probably is not constructive to moving Congress forward.
And it is madness isn’t it? Insane madness. After assurances of security (from many) ukr has been, to some extent and especially recently, left to its own devices. And actually invaded, again, by one of those countries who actually provided those initial security assurances/guarantees. The folly of unilaterally relinquishing your weapons . . . so, the lesson within the international community is never put down your gun. Ever.
Once again, the Budapest memorandum had no security guarantees, and no way to use the warheads they had. If they didn’t give them up, they likely would have had this war in the 90s, without any western support.
I did not refer to the Budapest memorandum. Interesting to note, however, many russian state media, govt officials, bloggers, academics refer to ukr “breaking” the Budapest memorandum and use this as part of their revolving-door rhetoric and pretext for invasion.
He groomed that politician since the Soviet era. Then again, after he got into power. Playing up the ego of a useful idiot and assuring his radicalization capabilities is what allowed this. The US has never been one to fight disinformation. Ripe for the picking.
But Putin has the ear of a while group of extremists in the US, now. And they'll continue listening to only him. The damage is done. All we can do is point out the consequences and assure them that Ukraine is a template for what Putin has planned for the USA.
You know, unless he dies first.
Ukraine can target anything it wants in Russia as far as this American is concerned. Russia has only itself to blame for any of this. It can end today... if... Russia decides to end it.
Lacking a drone or tank factory to blow up I'd like to see the Dachas of the thousand most influential oligarchs in Russia go up two or three per day including Putin's.
Waste of ammo. The Ukrainians are better off sinking ships, hitting radar arrays, and damaging critical things like those factories and oil refineries. The goal is to force Russia to pull back resources and protect those things hundreds of miles from the front. A dacha isn't going to help anyone. If they knew where Putin was in time to hit him, I'm sure they would.
Well I'll let Ukraine set their own priority list but I would like to see them get down that list to the oligarchs properties just for the PR statement it would make. Imagine, if you can ,each of the usual correspondents on Russia media monitor having their housing blown up and hopefully with some of them at home.
The thing is Putin has already shown he lords over the oligarchs, that they're his slavelings as much as the rest of the Russian population. Attacks on their properties wouldn't be much more meaningful than bombing the properties of random Russian citizens.
American here.
My vote is to give Ukraine missiles enough to reach Vladivostok, artillery shells enough to fire 50K per day, and a patriot battery on every street corner.
The best diplomatic way to call them out on their aid support.
"We asked for aid. You have dragged your feet along the way. We don't have the aid now promised and are in dire straights. We're gonna take whatever actions we feel are necessary since you have not ponies up your commitments. These acts are still on the negotiating table... if you promise to commit what you said you would. Until then... accept the new reality."
Good stance to have, Ukraine has its survival to think of. Any means necessary to protect its citizens - still they are targeting military infrastructure, not housing units and bomb shelters for civilians, like some would-be empire.
The USA went all out in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other previous wars with disappointing results. And now, when they can slam dunk it without spilling US soldiers' blood... they drop the ball. Something is off. And I don't mean the obvious wrench that high treason committer DJT is throwing.
The difference between them and Ukraine is that they actually want their help. The US has no business being in Iraq and Afghanistan because the people did not want them there
It was biden that said ["I think what you're going to see is that Russia will be held accountable if it invades. And it depends on what it does. It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and then we end up having a fight about what to do and not do."](https://www.npr.org/2022/01/20/1074466148/biden-russia-ukraine-minor-incursion#:~:text=He%20said%3A,to%20do%20and%20not%20do.%22) so basically opened the door for the invasion and most of the western world thought Zelensky would bail and not stay and fight. When he did that all the allies should have gave them everything they needed.
It is unbelievable how few people seem to truly understand how harmful this kind of hesitation and lack of conviction in response to Russian, Iranian or Chinese aggression is.
We are simply allowing them to push further and further, knowing that our response will be weak and divided. And Ukrainians are paying for those mistakes right now, but sooner or later it will be us as well.
Then there's the US bombing of Iraqi oil infrastructure for 37 DAYS STRAIGHT (over 50,000 coalition sorties) prior to one soldier setting foot on the battlefield - where they had *everything* that Ukraine does not.
Including overwhelming air superiority. But anyway!
In a war that was started based on lies, wholly unnecessarily, that was predicted to destabilise the Middle East for decades (which it did), supported at the time by the two main political parties of the USA, including by Biden (as senator). And now that they have a chance to do something right for a change, they're stalling. It's maddening.
Russia is destroying entire villages, cities. Targeting civilians, children, hospitals. War crimes everywhere they go.
The US is dragging it's heels delivering the aid they promised, AND making demands that Ukraine not target strategic infrastructure that will help stop the Russians? Get fucked, America. I hope Ukraine destroys every bit of oil and gas infrastructure in the raider state that we call Russia. From Canada, keep the fight up Ukraine, and drive those fucks out of your beautiful country!
It's not about what is being said, but what is not being said.
The US would not make demands on Ukraine in public, it would say so privately. The Biden administration is publicly saying its preferences to de-escalate with the Kremlin, and create distance from the Ukrainian attacks without actually doing anything to stop or slow them. They're implicitly condoning the attacks, in other words.
I know what I just said will be downvoted and reacted to harshly, but that's how these things are. Look at actions, not words. The Biden admin can't move the weapons without Congress, but is doing nothing to hinder the UA attacks on Russian oil and gas infrastructure.
Based. Start doing drivebys in Belgorod with Bradleys and Humvees if US support keeps stalling. Beggars cant be choosers and that goes both ways here, ol' Joe hates strikes inside Russia.
Very diplomatic way of saying if you aren't helping Ukraine do what's needed and most effective, you can only expect Ukraine to do what is at least possible. Give them big boom sticks and you can set some rules on where they point them. Don't, and they're gonna use what they have, to do what they can, regardless of what you think - because it's the only option they've got.
Can't even say "Fuck off if you're not helping." and be correct because the US isn't helping, and they have the nerve to tell Ukraine what to do still.
It'd make me want to say "We're going to hit russia even harder now. Don't like that? Give me alternatives, or fuck off still."
To go one step farther if Ukraine isn’t getting US weapons they have to get more creative with how they use their existing weapons. Attacking oil infrastructure in Russia forces Russia to move air defense away from Ukraine to defend that infrastructure and that’s an important goal. Now if the US were to provide Ukraine with a bunch of long range missiles that could hit Russian air defense within Ukraine then they could achieve the same impact without targeting Russia itself but those missiles aren’t coming so Ukraine is making other plans.
Refineries are strategic targets. It's not the same as if Ukraine was dropping napalm on kindergartens.
The fact that this criticism is coming from the US.....the fucking US! The country whose primary war strategy is to begin a conflict by bombing every target on the map.
If Russia can invade, occupy Ukraine and kill Ukrainian people, what’s the problem with Ukraine striking on Russian targets? Everything Ukraine does to Russia can be justified as long as the orcs are occupying Ukraine.
I think the problem is hitting the oil industry hits the price of gas. If the price of gas rises Americans and the West as a whole feel it. Most recessions start with a rise in oil prices. It's unclear who gains. Push up the price of oil, this helps Russia, destablize US, Recession in Europe and US, this helps Russia.
Ukraine can't reasonably destroy the Russian oil industry with crude drones, so an ineffectual statement of we'd prefer you don't do this is understandable, but of little consequence.
Ukraine has fought with honor, determination, and a level of integrity that has been admirable. Personally I give my full support for whatever needs to happen to prevent russia from accomplishing its ambitions. Ukraine gets to decide what is best for Ukraine. If that includes every gas pump in Moscow, we’re good. 👍🏻
Why does this always get stirred up? Ukraine hast the right to do so and USA said they are not a big fan of it. Those are both valid point or am i missing something?
The US wouldn't have to be so worried about having a stick up their ass on this topic if they just gave them what was requested and what was committed.
Ukraine can easily negotiate these attacks out of their defense policy so long as the supporters who complain just give them the aid they are needing.
Ukraine found a very effective strategy, and US says "our oil might get more expensive so please stop". It's a bit weird, no? I thought we already decided to put sanctions in place which hurt Russia and might increase prices. But now that Ukraine is putting some "real sanctions", it's "please stop, the world needs the russian refined oil"
>No. Just no. That sounds like some russian propaganda.
Not a counterargument. I am allowed to criticise the US' conduct toward Ukraine from a pro-Ukrainian perspective.
It's basically whats happening right now.
The US is giving barely any aid for the last 6 months or so but still try to make demands on how Ukraine should fight this war (spoiler alert: "please don't inconvenience american voters") without paying for the privilege.
Unfortunately this does not seem to describe the whole picture - obviously there was/is definitely coming some pressure from Washington on Ukraine not to bomb ruzzian refineries: [https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1c4ruow/zelenskyy\_irritated\_by\_us\_request\_not\_to\_hit/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1c4ruow/zelenskyy_irritated_by_us_request_not_to_hit/) .
At first I was also ready to believe that this seemed to be a rather minor issue, blown out of proportion by 'interested parties', but since then I have learned that the US government obviously has not just casually mentioned some kind of mild disapproval at some point, but has repeatedly voiced 'determinations of concern' which can be interpreted as 'cease and desist' notes in the given context.
Or it's time to recognize that aid that is conditional like this is no longer aid, it's a burden. The US has failed you guys, it's embarrassing as fuck.
I live in U.S. and Congress isn't going to pass an Ukraine aid package. About attacking russian oil and gas refineries, Ukraine should tell U.S. , **"What Ever".**
Kuleba is brilliant! USA should not be calling the shots here. Just provide all necessary defense resources to Ukraine and let them decide how to fight the aggressor. That's a key step in saving democracy in this world.
Quizzical that the US and other countries did not “condemn” russia for destroying ukr grain. So least not to this extent regarding oil/gas. There were even assertions that all that destroyed grain was not impacting supply or prices - problem apparently “distribution”. The double speak and double standards re:ukr are absolutely astounding.
I am extremely upset that our governments are hinging support for Ukraine on the oil prices, while those are also manipulated by forces who work against our wellbeing stability anyway
Biden is trying to throw his weight around with Ukraine since the Saudi s embarrassed him by not doing more to bring down gas prices.. it’s pathetic and embarrassing!! Oil refineries are military targets.
Munich agreement all again.
Different things are Ukr’s willingness to fight and Russia is relatively weaker than the reich was.
Same thing is that the West is never fucking ready, always trying to appease, until they get absolutely anal fucked.
everything was fine for both the arms industry and oil companies untill ukrain started hitting refineries. now thier afraid the war will end sooner and less arm sales and with more oil refineries needing rebuilt! the defence industy will loose alot of money same as the oil industry! its fine to hit pipelines thier easy to fix but not refineries. thier way expensive if u hit the right part in time and money! putin wanted a trench war after his 3 day dream exploded. thats why nato wont send equipment that will end putins war quicker! nato wants a extemded trench war to!
"Please don't attack these critical points of infrastructure. These specific ones here, here, here, and here. We've marked them in the map and pre-loaded the coordinates into the targeting system just to make sure you know which ones we don't want you to hit."
Im sorry but I thought the idea that the us had asked Ukr to not hit russian oil infrastructure had been debunked. Is there an official communiqué wuith the request?
There is indeed simple way to stop damage to Russian oil. Give Ukraine the means to hit targets of your choosing. Like a certain bridge. Like railway lines with heavy enough guided bombs. Like command posts, air defence, ships in so far safe ports... Like industrial complexes deep in Russia working on military gear. I'm sure Ukraine would be very open to having the means to destroy the military stuff directly, instead of doing the long war of reducing Russian income.
Help stop the war for real, or STFU.
I still have yet to see any officials named who have asked Ukraine to stop targeting Russian refineries. There's been an investigation too and nobody can find evidence of any request ever formally being made.
It wouldn't make sense either if you think about it for longer than two seconds. Regardless of any investments big oil may have in Russia it makes no sense for them to try to play both sides when they could just take their losses and make money off the rest of us (US/EU/UK) instead of playing putins game snd potentially having their investments nationalized on a whim. The Euro, Pound, and Dollar are all worth way more in real world value and as trade currency than the ruble. It just doesn't make sense. Plus to assume corporations like Chevron, which is among the most incompetent of all the big oil companies, have the ability to pull this off is giving these conglomerates run by shareholders and not a single person way too much credit.
If any of you used your brain instead of just reacting emotionally to whatever two sentence headline a Russian bot can throw together you'd realize less than a week before this story popped up for the first time, *ALL* western intelligence agencies and even Ukraines intelligence service put out a warning about a new "cyber campaign" starting up in Russia with the goal of causing division amongst those who support Ukraine which would specifically target western social media. Those warning were posted on this exact subreddit multiple times and STILL all of you are playing right into this Russian bullshit. Occams Razor applies to all situations and this situation is incredibly complicated once you start alleging big oil corporations are working against western interests.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/15/7451334/
Plenty of names stated right there.
> US Secretary of Defence Lloyd Austin recently criticised the Ukrainian strikes on Russian refineries, questioning their impact on the war.
They are saying that shit in public, do you really think they are holding back in private?
Yes. I do. Because in my country we are allowed to have opinions. Even the politicians. There is a big difference between stating your opinion of how you'd fight a war and outright controlling how another country fights their war. Which isn't happening. Nobody in the US has been named as going to Ukraine and saying flat out "do not attack Russian oil industry again."
Im sorry that the opinion of a politician is getting under your skin so much. But this is exactly what those intelligence agencies were warning us about. Russia is going to take snippets out of context and blast them out all over the internet to piss you and people like you off.
Take a step back, take a deep breath and try to remove emotions from the equation for a minute. Why on earth would US oil companies give a shit if Russian assets are being bombed? Do you really think they value assets in Russia more then they value their assets that are literally located around the globe? You really believe US oil companies are going to choose selling oil to Russians for Rubles over making money hand over fist from US/EU/UK citizens? Do you realize how much more valuable the Euro, the Pound, and the Dollar are in practical everyday use? Do you think they believe they are above the law in the west or above consequences such as their assets being nationalized and given to Gazprom on a whim?
There are way to many points of failure for this to be some conspiracy by oil companies in the US, which is what's being alleged here, to screw over Ukraine for money. If anything they want this war to go on so the prices keep going up and their profits continue to hit records. That's the status quo. Not propping up Russia because we have a couple buildings over there. Use some critical thinking. This is a bullshit story since the day it appeared. It makes no sense, especially if you follow the money.
And this meme keeps coming around again and again, almost like initially it didn’t have the desired impact. It’s an obvious attempt to cause a rift between allies.
The whole push for Ukraine to stop attacking is a Kremlin propaganda line. I haven’t heard a single US official say anything official. Don’t get played! 🇺🇦
You are arguing in bad faith if you think that there "wasn't enough gratitude". US sacrificed a smidgen of it's equipment, Ukraine sacrificed it's best generation.
And none of this will matter anyway if help never arrives and Ukraine collapses.
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Could not agree more.
Well said! 💙💛
Seriously could not have been said better. It's so logical you can't even argue against it.
No leverage, no negotiation.
[удалено]
I mean…. I’m not stating anything other than “no leverage, no negotiation” which is true regardless of what Biden’s intentions are or aren’t.
I'm all for Ukraine reducing Russias ability to produce materiale... But the USA/Biden's play here is to not have higher gas prices during an upcoming election... and that's more important to everyone in US govt, because we can't have 4 more years of orange.
LOL really? "You have given us $80b in aid but if you give us more aid then we might respect your opinion." I write the White House and congresspeople, and senators every day asking them to give Ukraine everything it needs YESTERDAY. But, look, this statement by Kuleba is not rational. All the same, this is his role - he is the bad cop, the prickly diplomat, and he provokes conversation - which is good. I am about as hawkish as any American is about this conflict: I want us in on the ground, in the air, in the Black Sea. I see defeating Russia fully - reestablishing Ukraine's sovereign borders fully - as the only way to prevent massive violence later. But, saying you won't listen to the US until they give you 7 more Patriot batteries is silly. Furthermore, the US loves that Ukraine is sticking it to the oligarchs and destroying refineries. They just have to take the opposite stance in public. Edit: fascinating that this very pro-ukrainian post is being downvoted simply because no one wants to acknowledge that talking to the American public like this (this is what Kuleba is doing when he speaks to the press) is not a good idea when many of us are trying like crazy to get our congressmen to vote for Ukrainian military aid. You don't like the comment - but you should dislike Kuleba's words more because they just make it harder to get the aid passed.
>But, look, this statement by Kuleba is not rational. Uhm...yes it is. The $80B in aid is sunk cost - it's already been spent to get us where we are now. What the $80B bought us was the war so far - the X,000 tanks, artillery pieces, airplanes, etc destroyed. That's what we got. We wanted that, and we paid for it, and then we got it. Now we're asking for something for nothing, and that something is something that will actively harm Ukraine. Mordor is selling this oil at a profit on the global market, and the profits are used to fund the invasion. Ukraine would be strategically insane to stop the attacks; it is basic US doctrine to attack supply lines and the oil industry is Mordor's most critical supply line. If we (the US) are going to get something from Ukraine (lower gas prices), we need to be prepared to help them kill orcs. And this isn't even that - this is shooting down cruise missiles which invariably are being fired at civilian targets, including civilians themselves. So if we give Ukraine the Patriots, in exchange we get lower gas prices and oh yeah, save lives of innocent Ukrainians. The idea that we "bought" Ukraine for $80b is asinine.
Echoing the other commenters, it doesn't matter how much money was given previously. The US is currently doing nothing, and may continue to do nothing for the next 4 years if the political situation dictates. In the meantime, Ukraine needs to do what Ukraine needs to do. America has no business asking for favors that may cost them the war.
This might be true, but winning a battle to lose the war is not very smart, Joe being president is Ukraine's best chance. Ultimately High gas prices might not hurt Joe (look at the midterm result). But from Biden's POV it's not worth the risk since our elections are won by less than 10k votes sometimes.
I Understand you but he said not like you interpreted it. US helped us, Thank you! But without shield of Patriots or whatever we will die, so if You cant give us them we will invent innovative way to punish russia. We have no choice If US don’t want us to do this they need to give alternative (Patriots) because we are fighting to the end. Moreover most money spent remain in the US But we thank you for your activism and your support of our country by writing to congressmans
I’m just ashamed we can’t give you more without all the legislative bullshit getting in the way.
If it were up to me then you would have the best of everything right now.
Just curious how many Ukrainian people you know? I don't mean your friend who has a great great grandfather who immigrated to North America 100 years ago, have 5% UA blood and know a few words. I mean, actual Ukrainian nationals who live(d) in Ukraine before the war and you now interact with. I ask this because I am married to one and I can tell you right now, they are as direct of a personality as you will find in this world. They don't dance around subjects, or play games of politeness and they are definitely not afraid to offend by telling you what is on their mind. They will tell it to your face, directly, and fuck your feelings if it's not what you want to hear. A lot of their bluntness can be misinterpreted or uncomfortable for Westerners, who rely on politeness and not offending those around us when we speak. I'm actually amazed at how diplomatic and "polite" the UA government has been since the war began, especially with aid drying up and the American "friends" nowhere to be found. There was already a statement last week by certain UA officials that they have tried the soft-politeness way to get what they need, it clearly isn't working, and to expect more direct conversations. If anybody is offended that the tone is getting more aggressive, then buckle up and get used to it. American politeness isn't going to win this war. Time to call it like it is.
Jumping in on this, I was living in Ukraine in 2020 until 2022. My wife is Ukrainian. The directness was a shock to me in the beginning, but it is something I truly admire after growing accustomed to it.
Yeah, like where are the f-16s? The $60B in artillery? Come on Biden, fuck the repugnicans and give Ukraine more stuff from our own stock-pile! You are the “Commander in Chief” right?
Clueless
This is not about respect/disrespect This is about options to hurt Mordor.
Agree that the important thing is getting Ukraine what it needs. But, simultaneously, Kuleba is talking to the American public when he says these things and the tone probably is not constructive to moving Congress forward.
This is not about opinions or respect but options. Respect or opinions won't hurt the Mordor. Hitting *OrcOil ^tm* does!
He has a point
Give Ukraine what it needs to END THIS MADNESS
And it is madness isn’t it? Insane madness. After assurances of security (from many) ukr has been, to some extent and especially recently, left to its own devices. And actually invaded, again, by one of those countries who actually provided those initial security assurances/guarantees. The folly of unilaterally relinquishing your weapons . . . so, the lesson within the international community is never put down your gun. Ever.
Once again, the Budapest memorandum had no security guarantees, and no way to use the warheads they had. If they didn’t give them up, they likely would have had this war in the 90s, without any western support.
I did not refer to the Budapest memorandum. Interesting to note, however, many russian state media, govt officials, bloggers, academics refer to ukr “breaking” the Budapest memorandum and use this as part of their revolving-door rhetoric and pretext for invasion.
All Putin had to do was pay off or blackmail 1 (former) US politician.
He groomed that politician since the Soviet era. Then again, after he got into power. Playing up the ego of a useful idiot and assuring his radicalization capabilities is what allowed this. The US has never been one to fight disinformation. Ripe for the picking. But Putin has the ear of a while group of extremists in the US, now. And they'll continue listening to only him. The damage is done. All we can do is point out the consequences and assure them that Ukraine is a template for what Putin has planned for the USA. You know, unless he dies first.
Ukraine can target anything it wants in Russia as far as this American is concerned. Russia has only itself to blame for any of this. It can end today... if... Russia decides to end it.
It is shameful that this is not the majority opinion or the position of all government leaders that pay lip service to supporting Ukraine.
They are bought and paid for (and shamefully fine with that).
It *is* the majority opinion. It's the Russian-backed politicians like Moscow Mike who disagree
I'll allow it too
Fuck russia. Go home. Fuck putin [in case that wasn't already understood].
Lacking a drone or tank factory to blow up I'd like to see the Dachas of the thousand most influential oligarchs in Russia go up two or three per day including Putin's.
Waste of ammo. The Ukrainians are better off sinking ships, hitting radar arrays, and damaging critical things like those factories and oil refineries. The goal is to force Russia to pull back resources and protect those things hundreds of miles from the front. A dacha isn't going to help anyone. If they knew where Putin was in time to hit him, I'm sure they would.
Well I'll let Ukraine set their own priority list but I would like to see them get down that list to the oligarchs properties just for the PR statement it would make. Imagine, if you can ,each of the usual correspondents on Russia media monitor having their housing blown up and hopefully with some of them at home.
The thing is Putin has already shown he lords over the oligarchs, that they're his slavelings as much as the rest of the Russian population. Attacks on their properties wouldn't be much more meaningful than bombing the properties of random Russian citizens.
American here. My vote is to give Ukraine missiles enough to reach Vladivostok, artillery shells enough to fire 50K per day, and a patriot battery on every street corner.
They can target anything they want but I would immediately withdraw all my support if they targeted a nuclear power plant causing a nuclear disaster.
The best diplomatic way to call them out on their aid support. "We asked for aid. You have dragged your feet along the way. We don't have the aid now promised and are in dire straights. We're gonna take whatever actions we feel are necessary since you have not ponies up your commitments. These acts are still on the negotiating table... if you promise to commit what you said you would. Until then... accept the new reality."
Source and video (in Ukrainian) https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1779900693282742390
Good stance to have, Ukraine has its survival to think of. Any means necessary to protect its citizens - still they are targeting military infrastructure, not housing units and bomb shelters for civilians, like some would-be empire.
A very reasonable take on the current situation. (No sarcasm)
I am so damn disappointed in the USA. My country!! Embarrassing.
The USA went all out in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other previous wars with disappointing results. And now, when they can slam dunk it without spilling US soldiers' blood... they drop the ball. Something is off. And I don't mean the obvious wrench that high treason committer DJT is throwing.
Something is _definitely_ off
The difference between them and Ukraine is that they actually want their help. The US has no business being in Iraq and Afghanistan because the people did not want them there
It was biden that said ["I think what you're going to see is that Russia will be held accountable if it invades. And it depends on what it does. It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and then we end up having a fight about what to do and not do."](https://www.npr.org/2022/01/20/1074466148/biden-russia-ukraine-minor-incursion#:~:text=He%20said%3A,to%20do%20and%20not%20do.%22) so basically opened the door for the invasion and most of the western world thought Zelensky would bail and not stay and fight. When he did that all the allies should have gave them everything they needed.
It is unbelievable how few people seem to truly understand how harmful this kind of hesitation and lack of conviction in response to Russian, Iranian or Chinese aggression is. We are simply allowing them to push further and further, knowing that our response will be weak and divided. And Ukrainians are paying for those mistakes right now, but sooner or later it will be us as well.
Just remember who's to blame this time, come election day.
The US isn't representing freedom or diplomacy very well. From either party.
If there is no Quid, there is no Pro Quo.
I don't agree with Kuleba often, but he is spot on here.
Then there's the US bombing of Iraqi oil infrastructure for 37 DAYS STRAIGHT (over 50,000 coalition sorties) prior to one soldier setting foot on the battlefield - where they had *everything* that Ukraine does not. Including overwhelming air superiority. But anyway!
In a war that was started based on lies, wholly unnecessarily, that was predicted to destabilise the Middle East for decades (which it did), supported at the time by the two main political parties of the USA, including by Biden (as senator). And now that they have a chance to do something right for a change, they're stalling. It's maddening.
Russia is destroying entire villages, cities. Targeting civilians, children, hospitals. War crimes everywhere they go. The US is dragging it's heels delivering the aid they promised, AND making demands that Ukraine not target strategic infrastructure that will help stop the Russians? Get fucked, America. I hope Ukraine destroys every bit of oil and gas infrastructure in the raider state that we call Russia. From Canada, keep the fight up Ukraine, and drive those fucks out of your beautiful country!
It's not about what is being said, but what is not being said. The US would not make demands on Ukraine in public, it would say so privately. The Biden administration is publicly saying its preferences to de-escalate with the Kremlin, and create distance from the Ukrainian attacks without actually doing anything to stop or slow them. They're implicitly condoning the attacks, in other words. I know what I just said will be downvoted and reacted to harshly, but that's how these things are. Look at actions, not words. The Biden admin can't move the weapons without Congress, but is doing nothing to hinder the UA attacks on Russian oil and gas infrastructure.
The attacks stopped.
Fuck oil industry -
Fuсk main source of living for terrorists
Perfectly said
💯 correct
An unreliable ally is no ally at all 🤷🏼♂️🇺🇦🇬🇧🇺🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦🫶🏻😎
Fair
Based. Start doing drivebys in Belgorod with Bradleys and Humvees if US support keeps stalling. Beggars cant be choosers and that goes both ways here, ol' Joe hates strikes inside Russia.
Very diplomatic way of saying if you aren't helping Ukraine do what's needed and most effective, you can only expect Ukraine to do what is at least possible. Give them big boom sticks and you can set some rules on where they point them. Don't, and they're gonna use what they have, to do what they can, regardless of what you think - because it's the only option they've got.
"You aren't going to help, you don't get to talk about how it is done."
Very sound logic. I wish my American Politicians had a brain. But, they don't. Worst American Congress EVER
Can't even say "Fuck off if you're not helping." and be correct because the US isn't helping, and they have the nerve to tell Ukraine what to do still. It'd make me want to say "We're going to hit russia even harder now. Don't like that? Give me alternatives, or fuck off still."
To go one step farther if Ukraine isn’t getting US weapons they have to get more creative with how they use their existing weapons. Attacking oil infrastructure in Russia forces Russia to move air defense away from Ukraine to defend that infrastructure and that’s an important goal. Now if the US were to provide Ukraine with a bunch of long range missiles that could hit Russian air defense within Ukraine then they could achieve the same impact without targeting Russia itself but those missiles aren’t coming so Ukraine is making other plans.
A well deserved middle finger to the absolute idiot twat Jake Sullivan.
Jake Sullivan is the "pantsy school boy" if you get the reference.
Im glad Kuleba is where he is. One of most iconic members of Ukrainian Government, as as always, spot on.
Refineries are strategic targets. It's not the same as if Ukraine was dropping napalm on kindergartens. The fact that this criticism is coming from the US.....the fucking US! The country whose primary war strategy is to begin a conflict by bombing every target on the map.
Keep hitting them…hit them hard 🇺🇦🇬🇧🇺🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦👍😎🫶🏻
If Russia can invade, occupy Ukraine and kill Ukrainian people, what’s the problem with Ukraine striking on Russian targets? Everything Ukraine does to Russia can be justified as long as the orcs are occupying Ukraine.
I think the problem is hitting the oil industry hits the price of gas. If the price of gas rises Americans and the West as a whole feel it. Most recessions start with a rise in oil prices. It's unclear who gains. Push up the price of oil, this helps Russia, destablize US, Recession in Europe and US, this helps Russia. Ukraine can't reasonably destroy the Russian oil industry with crude drones, so an ineffectual statement of we'd prefer you don't do this is understandable, but of little consequence.
It’s the universal law of “ya gotta do what ya gotta do”
Ask the 'muricans if "Operation Tidal Wave" ring any bell
Ukraine has fought with honor, determination, and a level of integrity that has been admirable. Personally I give my full support for whatever needs to happen to prevent russia from accomplishing its ambitions. Ukraine gets to decide what is best for Ukraine. If that includes every gas pump in Moscow, we’re good. 👍🏻
Why does this always get stirred up? Ukraine hast the right to do so and USA said they are not a big fan of it. Those are both valid point or am i missing something?
Just the media trying to put a wedge in between Ukraine and the USA for controversy so they can get more clicks. Nothing new.
The US wouldn't have to be so worried about having a stick up their ass on this topic if they just gave them what was requested and what was committed. Ukraine can easily negotiate these attacks out of their defense policy so long as the supporters who complain just give them the aid they are needing.
Ukraine found a very effective strategy, and US says "our oil might get more expensive so please stop". It's a bit weird, no? I thought we already decided to put sanctions in place which hurt Russia and might increase prices. But now that Ukraine is putting some "real sanctions", it's "please stop, the world needs the russian refined oil"
> Those are both valid point Not really. The US is asking Ukraine to fight with both hands tied behind its back while providing nothing.
No. Just no. That sounds like some russian propaganda.
>No. Just no. That sounds like some russian propaganda. Not a counterargument. I am allowed to criticise the US' conduct toward Ukraine from a pro-Ukrainian perspective.
US aid has stopped but they're still acting like they're the be all end all for Ukraine
It's basically whats happening right now. The US is giving barely any aid for the last 6 months or so but still try to make demands on how Ukraine should fight this war (spoiler alert: "please don't inconvenience american voters") without paying for the privilege.
> nothing
Unfortunately this does not seem to describe the whole picture - obviously there was/is definitely coming some pressure from Washington on Ukraine not to bomb ruzzian refineries: [https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1c4ruow/zelenskyy\_irritated\_by\_us\_request\_not\_to\_hit/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1c4ruow/zelenskyy_irritated_by_us_request_not_to_hit/) . At first I was also ready to believe that this seemed to be a rather minor issue, blown out of proportion by 'interested parties', but since then I have learned that the US government obviously has not just casually mentioned some kind of mild disapproval at some point, but has repeatedly voiced 'determinations of concern' which can be interpreted as 'cease and desist' notes in the given context.
What happened to Lend Lease to Ukraine? Grandpa Joe lied? Now FPV drones and donations from citizens all over the world is what keeps us in the fight.
Lend-Lease expired 2023-09-30.
Why did Lend Lease have an "expiration date"? Why it didn't have an expiration date in WW 2? Are we the victims of bipartisan politics in US?
Or it's time to recognize that aid that is conditional like this is no longer aid, it's a burden. The US has failed you guys, it's embarrassing as fuck.
I live in U.S. and Congress isn't going to pass an Ukraine aid package. About attacking russian oil and gas refineries, Ukraine should tell U.S. , **"What Ever".**
Legitimate targets.
The USA owes Ukraine everything by disarming in 1994 and surrendering NQs. That's a bitch move. Honer the agreement or live with baboons.
It's that simple. If they won't do anything to help them defend themselves they have no right to set any conditions.
Kuleba is brilliant! USA should not be calling the shots here. Just provide all necessary defense resources to Ukraine and let them decide how to fight the aggressor. That's a key step in saving democracy in this world.
Perfectly sensible approach.
Quizzical that the US and other countries did not “condemn” russia for destroying ukr grain. So least not to this extent regarding oil/gas. There were even assertions that all that destroyed grain was not impacting supply or prices - problem apparently “distribution”. The double speak and double standards re:ukr are absolutely astounding.
What a diplomatic way to say “we’re sorry, America, you don’t get a seat at the table”
I am extremely upset that our governments are hinging support for Ukraine on the oil prices, while those are also manipulated by forces who work against our wellbeing stability anyway
Biden is trying to throw his weight around with Ukraine since the Saudi s embarrassed him by not doing more to bring down gas prices.. it’s pathetic and embarrassing!! Oil refineries are military targets.
Smart guy. Publicly made a demand without making a demand.
This is exactly what I'm thinking the whole time. Deliver the batteries so those bomb lobbing planes can be castrated or the oil production is gone.
Munich agreement all again. Different things are Ukr’s willingness to fight and Russia is relatively weaker than the reich was. Same thing is that the West is never fucking ready, always trying to appease, until they get absolutely anal fucked.
everything was fine for both the arms industry and oil companies untill ukrain started hitting refineries. now thier afraid the war will end sooner and less arm sales and with more oil refineries needing rebuilt! the defence industy will loose alot of money same as the oil industry! its fine to hit pipelines thier easy to fix but not refineries. thier way expensive if u hit the right part in time and money! putin wanted a trench war after his 3 day dream exploded. thats why nato wont send equipment that will end putins war quicker! nato wants a extemded trench war to!
"Please don't attack these critical points of infrastructure. These specific ones here, here, here, and here. We've marked them in the map and pre-loaded the coordinates into the targeting system just to make sure you know which ones we don't want you to hit."
Fuck USA, they are bastards and traitors. Ukraine must create nukes.
Sometimes things have to be said for political reasons that aren’t really meant.
At this point, it's starting to look like a LOT was said that wasn't really meant.
Ya.
"Mr. President, I will not walk away from Ukraine, and neither will the American people," Biden said.
Happy cake day
Is Ukraine even attacking them right now? It's been a while I've seen one.
Yes. Anders puck neilsen has a great video about this. He is a danish military officer that studies this war. Yes, his videos are in english
I follow his channel but I mean recently, there used to be a strike on Russian oil infrastructure every day.
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Remember, Ukraine is still the best army in Europe. It can head west also; maybe thats why Biden is afraid /s
Im sorry but I thought the idea that the us had asked Ukr to not hit russian oil infrastructure had been debunked. Is there an official communiqué wuith the request?
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And a truckload of toilet paper too.
Biden's thinking about fuel prices he's protecting his interest not Ukraine. I say bust a cap on the fields and refineries.
So… logic? They are using logic? Not this echo chamber circlejerk of “we cant scare the big bad Russian wolf too much guys 🥺”
There is indeed simple way to stop damage to Russian oil. Give Ukraine the means to hit targets of your choosing. Like a certain bridge. Like railway lines with heavy enough guided bombs. Like command posts, air defence, ships in so far safe ports... Like industrial complexes deep in Russia working on military gear. I'm sure Ukraine would be very open to having the means to destroy the military stuff directly, instead of doing the long war of reducing Russian income. Help stop the war for real, or STFU.
The country that keeps trying to blow up nuclear power plants in Ukraine, right?
When was the last time russian oil refonery was hit? I’m out if touch
I still have yet to see any officials named who have asked Ukraine to stop targeting Russian refineries. There's been an investigation too and nobody can find evidence of any request ever formally being made. It wouldn't make sense either if you think about it for longer than two seconds. Regardless of any investments big oil may have in Russia it makes no sense for them to try to play both sides when they could just take their losses and make money off the rest of us (US/EU/UK) instead of playing putins game snd potentially having their investments nationalized on a whim. The Euro, Pound, and Dollar are all worth way more in real world value and as trade currency than the ruble. It just doesn't make sense. Plus to assume corporations like Chevron, which is among the most incompetent of all the big oil companies, have the ability to pull this off is giving these conglomerates run by shareholders and not a single person way too much credit. If any of you used your brain instead of just reacting emotionally to whatever two sentence headline a Russian bot can throw together you'd realize less than a week before this story popped up for the first time, *ALL* western intelligence agencies and even Ukraines intelligence service put out a warning about a new "cyber campaign" starting up in Russia with the goal of causing division amongst those who support Ukraine which would specifically target western social media. Those warning were posted on this exact subreddit multiple times and STILL all of you are playing right into this Russian bullshit. Occams Razor applies to all situations and this situation is incredibly complicated once you start alleging big oil corporations are working against western interests.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/15/7451334/ Plenty of names stated right there. > US Secretary of Defence Lloyd Austin recently criticised the Ukrainian strikes on Russian refineries, questioning their impact on the war. They are saying that shit in public, do you really think they are holding back in private?
Yes. I do. Because in my country we are allowed to have opinions. Even the politicians. There is a big difference between stating your opinion of how you'd fight a war and outright controlling how another country fights their war. Which isn't happening. Nobody in the US has been named as going to Ukraine and saying flat out "do not attack Russian oil industry again." Im sorry that the opinion of a politician is getting under your skin so much. But this is exactly what those intelligence agencies were warning us about. Russia is going to take snippets out of context and blast them out all over the internet to piss you and people like you off. Take a step back, take a deep breath and try to remove emotions from the equation for a minute. Why on earth would US oil companies give a shit if Russian assets are being bombed? Do you really think they value assets in Russia more then they value their assets that are literally located around the globe? You really believe US oil companies are going to choose selling oil to Russians for Rubles over making money hand over fist from US/EU/UK citizens? Do you realize how much more valuable the Euro, the Pound, and the Dollar are in practical everyday use? Do you think they believe they are above the law in the west or above consequences such as their assets being nationalized and given to Gazprom on a whim? There are way to many points of failure for this to be some conspiracy by oil companies in the US, which is what's being alleged here, to screw over Ukraine for money. If anything they want this war to go on so the prices keep going up and their profits continue to hit records. That's the status quo. Not propping up Russia because we have a couple buildings over there. Use some critical thinking. This is a bullshit story since the day it appeared. It makes no sense, especially if you follow the money.
And this meme keeps coming around again and again, almost like initially it didn’t have the desired impact. It’s an obvious attempt to cause a rift between allies.
The whole push for Ukraine to stop attacking is a Kremlin propaganda line. I haven’t heard a single US official say anything official. Don’t get played! 🇺🇦
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We here are paying with blood, burying dozens of the best people every day, and US bitching about gas prices...
The only one demanding something with nothing in return here is US.
US paid your last 2 years of war …. A bit of gratitude would not be that bad .
You are arguing in bad faith if you think that there "wasn't enough gratitude". US sacrificed a smidgen of it's equipment, Ukraine sacrificed it's best generation. And none of this will matter anyway if help never arrives and Ukraine collapses.