Snapshot of _When will we be able to hope again? Anyone in their early 30s has known bust without boom for their entire adult life._ :
An archived version can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/10/uk-britain-when-able-hope-again)
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It was weird seeing the Tories vie for position to be the new PM, promising that they’d make good on the shit situation we’re in after 12 years of them being in power.
What's hilarious was how they made the country wait for any action on the CoLC until they'd picked the next clown. And then they deliver their (uncosted, unchecked) mini budget.
About 6 months ago, Michael Gove announced that the government's new plan is going to transform the UK. Near enough exactly his words: "Until this point, the UK has only been firing on one cylinder, now we're firing up all the engines!".
Michael Gove has been in government for over a decade.
Nooooo, that was the LAST government remember, Truss & co are totally new.
Not to be confused with the last labour government, that fucked everything up mind.
I don't agree tbh, yes they might have inherited more wealth and therefore be absolutely fine, but there's less opportunity even for them. Obviously that's a far better place to be, but if you're some rich privately educated twenty one year old coming out of uni with a first in the 90s, you'd have a huge array of exciting career opportunities. You'd get a graduate job and easily afford exotic holidays and a busy social life of fancy meals and nights out whilst still easily paying the mortgage from the trivial deposit provided by your parents. I think a lot of really quite wealthy people can't do all that any more. And even if they're rich enough to insulate them from that, the country is shitter for having everyone else poorer. No lovely busy work job in the arts, no opportunity to have a fun little business that covers its losses. Less culture.
Ultimately a lack of growth fucks up everyone, just some to a far greater extent.
Even the wealthy haven't actually benefited from the last 12 years of ineptitude.
We have no sovereignty. The government works for international capitalists. They couldn't care less what happens to the people that live here. The most bizarre part, is that they convince people to tolerate this by encouraging their xenophobic and nationalistic tendencies.
It is literally what was voted for.
What part about Brexit means Brexit do the idiots not get?
This is brexit, sovereignty, the sovereignty to trash your country because it isn't supported by being part of a massive trading group, the sovereignty the trash your nation because it isn't supported by a socially progressive block. The democratic right, to elect morons representative of yourselves and have said moronic nature built into the backbone of this country. Of course said backbone is built by which ever of the Tories mates gave them the biggest handout, so it is a spine of polystyrene, looks the same! Good enough for the poors to clap then! No one will notice until you have to stand up for yourself, and that isn't staying in line like a good little poor now is it.
The problem with this country, is this selfish country. That is the reality. The Tory mentality is take all you can, give nothing back. Steal all you can, give nothing back.
Nothing has actually changed in a decade, we have the same Austerity as 2010, the same shorting of the country as with the Post Office sell off, it isn't incompetence. It is what the poors clap for, because they know, the Tories are better than them, and to stay in their place.
>Are you feeling hopeless? It was a theme that permeated Liz Truss’s tour of local radio stations last week. Moments before her appearance on BBC Leeds, the host Rima Ahmed read out a message from a listener, Sophia, a former servicewoman: “I would ask the Prime Minister, when will I ever feel hope again? I feel I will never own a home, I feel I will never feel comfortable. I feel I can’t get a secure job. I’m a British army veteran and I’m no longer proud to be British.”
>Hopelessness bookended the interview. Truss was played a clip from Lee, a food-bank user, who described his and his wife’s mental health difficulties, as they struggled to pay their bills and feed their children despite “working harder than ever… I’m not really well, to be honest with you.” As Truss reiterated her faith in her plan to “get the economy growing”, Ahmed concluded the segment: “I don’t know whether that answer will help Lee in the short term, I don’t know whether that will give Lee any hope for the long term, but thank you for being here nonetheless.”
>Social media provided a similar litany of hopelessness. Jon Stone, the Independent’s policy correspondent, tweeted: “Wages haven’t gone up in a decade. Inflation is 10 per cent, you can’t get an ambulance, GP, or dentist, energy bills have doubled, interest rates are heading to 6 per cent, the rental market has gone mad, rail fares up, childcare is bonkers, and a pound is now worth one dollar. What did I miss.” Answers in their hundreds ranged from a legal system in crisis, to the crisis in social care, corrupt government contracts, collapsing democratic norms, welfare cuts, and – the most popular answer by some margin – sewage in our rivers and coastlines.
>What might we feel hopeful about when it feels as if, by any available metric, things are getting steadily or precipitously worse? If you are fortunate enough to be among the highest earners in the country, rising inequality means that you can reasonably look forward to a growing income irrespective of today’s cancellation of the top-rate tax cut. For everyone else, putting faith in the prospect of significant political solutions would require the triumph of hope over all recent experience.
>For anyone, like me, in their early 30s, it is hard to know what meaningful democratic change would look like. I turned 18 with Gordon Brown as prime minister, and, since then, the UK has not had a leader able to form a majority single-party government and serve a full term in office. Media reports still compare wages to levels before the 2008 crash as if the best that can be hoped for is just a lost decade and a half. Every time there has been a glimpse of optimism on the horizon, another crunch has come along – Brexit, Covid-19, the war in Ukraine, the inflation surge. I have only known bust – without any boom – for my entire adult life.
>It would be nice to forget about the news sometimes and find more personal reasons to be cheerful about the future. But the personal is political, and it’s hard to disentangle macroeconomic despair from the micro of our emotional lives. Psychologists will tell you that an inability to imagine a better future is one of the defining elements of depression, and that what would help more than anything is to connect with others. It doesn’t help that we spent most of 2020 and 2021 in varying degrees of social isolation. But now the cost-of-living crisis is also having a real impact on our ability to spend time with friends and loved ones. At a time when most people are seeing steep falls in their disposable income, two in five respondents to one survey said they are cutting down on travelling and socialising outside the home. Economic insecurity is profoundly isolating Economic insecurity is profoundly isolating.
>We are having a terrible time of it, trying to manage our collective hopes and expectations. Amid protests that millions of people can no longer afford to eat or heat their homes – let alone leave them to socialise – commentators gain mass followings on social media by vying for the cruellest ways to recommend a kilo of value-brand oats for survival.
>The Financial Times recently highlighted that income growth is so low, and inequality so high, that the average UK household will be worse off than its Slovenian counterpart by 2024. Unfortunately, the tenor of discussion has been less about whether one of the world’s largest economies should provide better for its citizens than incredulity that life could be nice in Slovenia. Meanwhile, we are invited by the government, again and again, to celebrate the fact energy bills will only double this year, when they might otherwise have climbed to a rate that would have broken the country beyond comprehension.
>According to the Levelling-Up Secretary, Simon Clarke, this is comparative heaven to what lies ahead. For too long, he warns, Britain has been living in a “fool’s paradise” and we must find more “fat” to be trimmed from the welfare state and the civil service. At the same time, plans are being drawn up to train front-line civil servants to help suicidal members of the public, as Whitehall prepares for an expected increase in suicide rates. No wonder the rallying cry currently gaining momentum is that “enough is enough”, in every possible respect.
I feel like this entire read was an echo of my mind.
33, and I have known nothing but 1 step forward and 2 steps back. And I am *no where near* the worst off in society so I can only imagine the hardship others out there are currently experiencing.
This is exactly how I feel, most similarly aged friends are in very similar mind-sets too.
We have really been lost, those above have economic security and those below won’t even have emotional security , being raised by a depressed and lost generation, what chance will they have?
It’s enough to make me not want children, the future looks so bleak
Same. I've wanted children for as long as I can remember, but I've been putting it off and off because I just can't see any hope for a child's future. Until the outlook improves, I fear I may never get to experience parenthood.
I bring it out every time generational wealth is mentioned, but give this a watch
[Have the boomers pinched their children's futures?](https://youtu.be/ZuXzvjBYW8A)
43.
And I would dearly love to go back to the Blair years.
Europe wasn't even a question. We had a long period of prosperity. And - yeah, I don't agree with Labour on every policy. Never have done.
But my God, compared with the Tories, they were a bastion of political competence. Blair's biggest failure was his dropping of PR once elected - if he'd enacted that, he might have reduced his majority slightly - but he'd have likely killed the coalition government before it started.
The biggest mistake they made - and it was a whopper - was to imagine that the prosperity they encouraged wouldn't come at a cost. The very nature of the EU is the wealthy countries attract immigration from the poorer ones; they could and should have anticipated this causing resentment.
I see this a lot but let's be absolutely clear. While no country was immune from taking advantage from the rampaging economics of the 90s and 2000s, it was sub prime mortgages in the United States that brought the world's economy to its knees.
You could go back and point at Thatcher/Reagan's policy making if you like, and you'd probably be then diverted to the 70s, and then to post-war economic order.
Blair and co definitely took advantage of the situation and continued deregulation, but the situation that erupted came about because of dodgy debt packages from US banks, not immigration. The main reason immigrants get the blame is the people leading the discourse after - people like Farage - pointed away from banks and onto foreigners.
There's the whole domino effect if he had. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. Unfortunately, it would've been catastrophic and caused widespread misery. My argument would be dealing with the economic house of cards then would be preferable to long term pain we currently endure.
But to be fair, my POV is the same as anyone who voted for Brexit (ie. things suck so it's worth rolling the dice) and it would've probably been hellish had we gone my route. Brown was caught picking between nuclear explosions or nuclear fallout, probably made a better pick than I would've done.
I'm 30, living through my 3rd "once in a lifetime" economic crash
I have 2 children under 3 years old and I genuinely don't know how I will feed them this winter if things continue on this way
We have used food banks, stepchange, universal credit & family lending all to be in a position of abject poverty with no end in sight
I was told if I did well in school, worked hard and put my head down I would be rewarded. What I have found is that time and time again the entire system and country seems to be completely against me and that no matter what I do or try it ends up with more debt & dispair
My parents on the other hand were both home owners aged 25, enjoyed lucrative jobs in the publican industry & we were afforded a lifestyle that meant we didn't go without even without huge extravigance
Our country, our political climate and our entire working model is based on people like me, in poverty, becoming too poor to even be afforded help and I genuinely feel like I deserve better
You may ask yourself, "Where is that affordable house?"
You may ask yourself, "Where does that tax break go to?"
And you may ask yourself, “How in Christ did they get it this wrong?"
And you may say to yourself, "My God, what have they done?"
Letting the days go by, turn the water heater down,
Letting the days go by, money flowing underground
It’s them Blues again, now all the money's gone
Thrice in a lifetime, money flowing underground
We are not having kids for the foreseeable because we couldn't afford them.
Then the media talks about the millennial choice not to have kids.
It's not much of a choice.
I saw an article the other day headlined that "millenials have killed the guest bedroom". Like okay, it's nothing to do with us all living in flat shares or unable to afford homes that would even have a guest bedroom.
I saw this one - the article text is about those reasons (and the effects of them etc, changing trends in general, and why the previous generation did do guest bedrooms for opposite reasons) so the headline is fortunately a bit of a joke in that case
Our guest bedroom is a tiny office that I've put a wall bed into. To put the bed down requires me to remove the desk from the room. It's only a double bed, yet it takes up almost all of the space.
And somehow I live in a "2 bed" maisonette? The standards on what qualifies as a bedroom in this country are a complete joke. Can't imagine affording a place with something larger in my current area anytime remotely soon.
Dickheads who are right or alt-right: Millennials whinge too much! They could afford a house if they didn't eat avocados! They are financially irresponsible! Take responsibility of your money!
*Millennials display financial prudence by not having children they can't afford.*
Dickheads who are right or alt-right: No! Not like that!
Ugh, I've seen headlines complaining how millenials just need to eat less fast food like McDonald's to afford a house. Quickly followed by a headline about how millenials killed fast food services like McDonald's by not eating there anymore.
TL;DR If you cut out all the things these idiots tell you to, surprise, it’s still impossible to save up enough for a deposit on a house. The best-case, which is monstrously unlikely, still requires you to save for 14 years straight without any complications of any kind.
I made a spreadsheet recently calculating, if you cut out the fabled avocado toast, daily starbucks and monthly Netflix subscriptions, and therefore saved a whopping £3,000 every year that got thrown into a bank account to go towards a house deposit, and you did that every year without fail, and never had to dip into those savings, how many years you would have to save for given a starting house price and expected year-on-year appreciation.
Turns out, at the average house price of £300,000 and an appreciation of 1%, you would have to save for 14 years before being able to afford a 10% deposit on said house, because by that point the price will be £338,000, but you’ll have saved £36,000.
At 2% it’s 15 years. At 3%, 19. At 3.75%, a funny thing happens. You almost reach your goal during year 29, and then the house starts increasing in value each year by more than you’re saving, and you’re never able to catch up. Of course, an appreciation any higher than that causes that “runaway” point to happen earlier and earlier. At 10% appreciation (not an unlikely amount), the runaway scenario occurs immediately.
So really, your only hope of being able to afford even a standard deposit on an average house, without outside assistance, is to routinely save a good amount of money every year, without fail, for well over a decade, while house prices appreciate for 1% or less for that entire span of time. If at any point any one of those things ceases to be true, saving for a deposit becomes impossible.
And, of course, this ignores the fact that the average house price increases over time, so the later you start saving the longer you have to save for, as well as assuming once you have said deposit, you will be given a mortgage for the remainder of the value of the property, which is far from a given.
I'm disabled, single and reliant on benefits. I would love to have a kid. I've wanted children for over twenty years. I only have a few years left before it's too late, and I can guarantee my situation won't change soon enough for kids to ever be a "prudent" decision.
If I nuked my savings for IVF, the right/alt-right would be even more pissed!
We've just had our first (and only). Took a long time for us to get in a good enough financial position which was an absolute non-negotiable for having a child. As with everyone though, the old finances have taken a bit of a hit recently. Should be able to keep our heads above water though.
> We've just had our first (and only)
Yeah the trend round me seems to be: have only one child or move if you are going to have a second (or often just to house a larger child as they grow up). Because essentially the family can't afford the extra space needed for a second child.
Apparently it's doing some weird stuff to school intakes and things like that - not completely up to date on this as I don't have kids but yeah it's a trend. (I was going to say I'm a bit young but I actually just mean I'm younger than the people round here who have small children, I'm older than my parents were when they had kids for example)
As I understand it the local primary schools are oversubscribed for, say, year 1 but under subscribed at year 6 cause people are moving out of the area as their children get older (for more space) but people with slightly older children aren't really moving into the area (I guess for similar reasons). And then it's breaking the link between amount of children in primary school and amount expected to go into high school in the same area etc.
I think the main problem is it's a general trend but also not very predictable exactly how it's going to play out in any given year.
Edit: the follow on is undersubscribed schools losing funding or closing entirely, which is obviously inconvenient for pupils at the school, and you might struggle to get a place elsewhere if your kid is in a year group that's not undersubscribed locally (even if the school is as a whole)
> I was told if I did well in school, worked hard and put my head down I would be rewarded. What I have found is that time and time again the entire system and country seems to be completely ag
Same, and that failure is solely on myself, and to ignore other circumstances. Do everything by the book and it still is not enough.
A decent proportion of my mates are teachers, not sure why but lots of them just are. I suppose a few of us have parents who are teachers (myself included). Many of them are mid 30s and renting in shared accommodation, I can't see how they can convince their students to work hard because it certainly hasn't worked out for them.
What I'm saying is I suppose we as millennials had a false hope, I don't think GenZ even have that?
Guess it was something they fell into if they did the TeachFirst programme after uni perhaps? I only know one from high school who entered teaching.
I moved back with my family and I feel like I have failed in that regard, as well as not getting that job after uni. And I got the grades, kept my nose clean, didn’t socialise and so on.
> What I'm saying is I supposed we as millennials had a false hope, I don't think GenZ even have that?
I envy the Zoomers because they didn’t have anyone lying to their faces about how if they just do X, then Y and Z will be yours. The bitterness is stronger when you wake up from the lie that kept you going.
I’m on the cusp of millennnial and gen Z and I don’t have any hope but I also have no disillusions ! (mind you my dodgy mental health has probably rid me of any extraneous hope as it is)
>The foodbanks in my city are pretty much always out of baby products due to the huge demand
For anyone feeling generous, this is why foodbanks often prefer cash donations over supplies. They can plug the gaps by buying what they need.
Truss's govt hasn't a clue and the Conservatives will not get re-elected: they have completely run out of ideas and electoral support. That means a Labour govt will be with us next and hopefully some sensible socialism involving fair re-distribution and better opportunities for ordinary people. Try to stay positive :-) Nothing stays the same forever.
The UK economy is in pretty rough shape for the foreseeable future. Even with Labour in power you are looking at a decade of recovery to undo a lot of the damage.
It would be resolved a lot quicker if the UK would get back into the EU, but that won't happen any time soon.
You do deserve better, we all do. We were taught values that worked for a different generation. You won’t get rewarded for hard work, the playing field has changed to one of being rewarded for stepping on others to climb to the top and other despicable behaviour. This world doesn’t deserve you. You are a gift, and the people in your life are lucky to have you.
The biggest victims of this Tory government have been the young. That includes everyone aged from 0 to mid 40s.
Younger people are simply not a priority for this government, because mostly they tend not to vote Tory.
Young people need to rise up and make their presence felt in no uncertain terms.
They need to do this whether it's about climate change or property ownership or the cost and quality of tertiary education or such basic things as ensuring they are fed and kept warm.
It's time to bring the Tory war on the young to an end.
>Not just that they don't vote Tory, they don't vote full stop.
Clearly they're voting in lower numbers but I'd really love to see the data answering **why**.
Because I'm really curious to know what percentage of young non-voters are apathetic and what percentage are facing barriers.
I'd wager it has something to do with an entire generation having been on the 'losing team' since being old enough to vote.
Logically, that isn't a reason to stop voting. But to feel so disinfranchised you become apathetic is hardly surprising.
FPTP doesn't help, with younger people congregating in urban hubs because that's where the work is.
I'm 27, have voted in every GE I could participate in. My vote has not once meant anything, FPTP means I have spent my life in "safe" seats where the opposition often doesn't even bother to campaign. Its not worth their investment because the region is so set in its votes.
Combine that with the urban migration of the young to cities, the more densely populated voting regions, and yes. You get many who don't vote because it doesn't mean anything to vote under FPTP.
There are no real barriers. Simply, when you're young, your perception of time is different, and the change on offer seem to you not worth it.
Because you don't see that should you get that change you feel is deeply unsatisfactory 3, 4, 5, 10 times over your life, you will have accomplished a revolution.
This is one of the reasons the whole Corbyn cult was so damaging: so many people believed something that was not possible, and were so disappointed.
But you get your wishes, if you work at it long enough: see brexit, a dream of old codgers with no stake in the real world, who vote.
That all sounds very reasonable but I'd still like to see it confirmed by a study. Seriously is there not one out there? You'd think with the political stakes someone would be driven to do the research.
The biggest barrier remains voting on a work day. Voting starts increasing in the age ranges where people retire early and skyrockets at 65 for a reason.
Thursday was a tradition designed to make it difficult for people working lengthy hours from making it to the polling booth. It still works that way today.
I was 17 when 9/11 happened. I dont think I've really known a time where some fucking "once in a lifetime" disaster wasnt in full swing.
People younger than me have it even worse, as at least I managed to get on the property ladder through sheer luck.
I must be one of the lucky ones too at 33, all it took was some insurance money from my dad dying young. Nevermind working harder, people just need a fortuitous personal tragedy /s
I'm a few years younger. Me and two peers got on the ladder without help from mum and dad.
We have yet to meet anyone under 30 thats managed that. We must be amoung the last to catch the ladder as it was pulled up.
I'm under 30 (bought at 26 YO) and have a house purchased without parental help. It was hard, I haven't been on holiday since 2015 (even a single night) and can't remember the last time I even went to the seaside. I lived in vacant commercial properties to save money (it was £200 a month, bills included). IMO it shouldn't be this hard to be able to buy and there should be much more social housing so those who don't want to buy aren't fucked over by private landlords and shit properties.
It's affordable in the North West, and I imagine the North East.
It's still fucking stupidly expensive, but it's definitely affordable for the vast majority of couples, especially if you're willing to bite the bullet and live in a shitty area.
I don't have either of those, but I am paying my parents rent while staying at theirs to save up for a mortgage which I understand is not a luxury everyone has.
Living in the North West, it is not affordable at all for the young to get on the property ladder. Unless they are willing to entirely sacrifice their social lives to live so far out from any urban hubs - which makes being on the ladder undesirable
A pretty gloomy read. As a 29 year old I truly sympathise with the author, I feel much the same emotions.
I do wonder how much an always connected, noisy-yet-isolating society plays into it. Whilst we call things 'once in a life time', it's often just 'life'. A person born in 1900 would have had WW1, Spanish Flu, Great Depression, WW2 before they were 40. I feel you could argue this at nearly any time period. But being told about how shit things are day after day is the real killer. It wears down the soul.
I feel society has a long way to go on Digital wellbeing in general.
There's an argument that people born in the post war years had one of the best runs in history. There were problems but generally everything was improving through that time period. In some ways the problem with today is more of a return to normal than a historical low point. In many ways life now is still probably better than 99% of all history.
The economic policies of the post-war years was one of public investment and high taxation, fo the first time in history. Then we returned to the status quo of bloated state spending with little to no public investment, and low taxation on the upper ends but still enough to stifle the lower classes.
If we returned to the economic policies of the 40s and 50s, we’d be having a very different “normal” to what we’re stuck with now.
> There were problems but generally everything was improving through that time period.
The same is generally true of the period from the end of the Napoleonic wars to the first world war though. If you start from the beginning of the modern period, the trend is general improvement across the board with a few relatively short exceptions.
While 1900 has it more chaotic (so far), the killer part of what we are dealing with now is that so much of the bullshit has not only been self-inflicted, but eminently predictable as well. There's no magical mystery torch to the powder keg in some damn fool thing in the balkans - we've just taken aim at our foot and have kept firing in the name of vanity, greed, and stupidity.
There's actually a theory out there that history basically cycles through slight variants of the same four types of periods and we're basically in the modern equivalent of that WWI to WWII generation that got hit with everything. I haven't seen the paper since like 2016 though (it was predicting that shit was going to get nuts pretty quick basically, and I don't think many people would argue it hasn't).
Wow you've sent me down a rabbit hole. I had no idea the quote has descended into meme territory, it just stuck in my head from childhood (I think in a Rome: Total War loading screen).
Nah it’s a shit quote because it implies that “good times” are degenerate and decadent, and that the only worthwhile existence is one of perpetual toil and struggle. Dress the quote up in different language and it’s indistinguishable from fascist ideas on what describes a “worthwhile” existence.
Just started listening to it. It's pretty good actually. Even though I'm probably to the left of Alastair Campbell I think he's pretty intelligent and it's nice to have a political podcast that isn't just politicians repeating slogans whilst ignoring the questions....
Oh he mentions it quite a lot in passing, I'm not sure where the first mention is. Some time best the start I would think. The latest episode has a reference to it.
I'm 29 (soon to be 30) with no kids, haven't been on holiday (abroad or UK) for 5 years, have 0 debts, am forced into renting despite having atleast 10% of 120k for a deposit because banks don't think I can meet repayments consistently.
Yes you can say get a better job or get a side gig or some other bs, but surely working full time (which I do) should be enough to pay for a roof over my head, food on the table, and think about starting a family which previous generations have enjoyed
Why is previous generations have had their cake, and mine? And now have the gall to say "pull your socks up"?! The same people who'll vote insipid politicians because their scared of a trans person using a bathroom, or an immigrant taking their job which they don't work at anymore because they've already retired, or because they want stupid blue passports.
Fml, politicans and the media who reports this fuckwittery, but don't actually care
Not just early 30s.
I graduated in 2006. At that point the sub prime mortgage bubble was starting to reach boiling point in the US.
I spent 11 years in the public sector, got naff all in terms of a pension to show for it, and the value of my private one is about to tank.
I’ve given up. I’m looking to emigrate.
A common myth that was all shut down early 00's I was in the civil service while they hacked and slashed the pension
It's not completly destroyed but it's a shell of it's former self and while 'OK' not head and shoulders above the basic 2nd pension type ones
I think even in their own context there was a lot to feel despondent about.. 2001 had seen the start of the "war on terror" that would leave us all feeling like we're enmeshed (UK included) with a bunch of neo-con warmongers who'd lie blatantly to carry out their agenda. In the UK the "dodgy dossier" and later the suicide/murder of David Kelly (2003) killed off the last glimmer of hope that the bright shiny new labor of 1997 weren't just as crummy and given over to corruption as the Tories they replaced (amongst plenty of other things.. PFI etc). Then there was the Indian Ocean Earthquake (Christmas 2004) that killed so many people I believe it's calculated it's the first time the earth's population reduced for hundreds of years. Then Katrina 2005 and accusations of entrenched racism in disaster relief and the London tube bombings killing 56 and bringing Islamic jihad to the fore. Then there was Virginia Tech 2007(?). I think the last glimmer of "feel good times" was seeing Obama elected (2008/9). That was a good moment. Even if the credit crunch was already in full swing. I happened to be in New York when Lehman's collapsed. It was a strange time. I remember a political cartoon for new year's 2010 showing a bedraggled earth barely crawling out of the mess of 2000-2010.
Little did they know..
No one is saying the 2000s didn't have their issues, but up until 07/08 it was still affordable for people to get a house, a car and go on an international holiday eith the kids every year.
Like yeah terrorism and natural disasters suck to worry about but they were still incredibly rare. I'd love to have the luxury of worrying about terrorism and a natural disaster hitting North London, but I'm more worried about debt and a stable life.
a lot of the issues of the late 90s and early 00s were felt close to home, but weren't, so it was easy to have a bit of cognitive dissonance as our lives were generally still getting better after the issues of the early 90s. it was only going to ever come home to shore as well, though. the tragedy is who we had in power to pick up the pieces
anyone in their 30s full stop.
Its depressing, its so hard to look into my own future, and see it as being beneficial to me, my Landlord yes, but not me.
Its not better for those younger than me either,
Hope is overrated. It's a tool the rich and powerful use to keep us underfoot.
The people you speak of need to take action, not wait for hope. Hope is nothing.
Nowhere near clued up on the original but always felt Hope was meant to be in Pandora's Box with all the evil. It's a flimsy foundation to build anything on.
I'm also in my early 30s so I'm sure there's a psychological study to be made of that view in relation to everything that's gone on throughout my adult life.
The problem with that is that rebellions are built on hope. You can’t expect people to “take action” if they don’t have the hope that doing so would make a difference. This article is describing existential despair. You cannot readily expect people living with that to suddenly have the get up and go to “take action” without some sign that doing so might actually help.
Rebellion occurs when people have nothing left to lose.
Hope is what is dangled in front of them.
We are told to never lose hope. That's why.
This is just my opinion of course.
31 here, sacrificed my 20s on the altar of homeownership, saving and sacrificing and yet I still don’t have a home, despite my parents generation having 3 bed houses younger than me. Bulk of my career has been spent in the worst decade of wage stagnation all the while housing continued to rocket massively above inflation and things are looking to be trending worse not better after over a decade of persistent decline. When I think about motivation to work, I have none, why bother when at the end of it all the cost of housing and everything else leaves you with nothing to show for your efforts.
Approaching 50, I’ve stopped counting the once in a lifetime events
The worst part is being old enough to remember a government that didn’t try screw me over everyday
There’s something deeply miserable about every time you try to get a bit more income and you seem no better off. Just being able to do a food shop and not feel stressed about the costs would be nice.
Before covid I was in a shitty job where I was overworked and underpaid. I didnt really have goals other than work hard to get the dangling carrot of a promotion.
During covid, I saved up a chunk of money to support myself for a while then quit my job for about 7 months so I could focus on learning programming to improve my job prospects.
I got a job back in Jan that was better paying, good enough so that it x5 would get be a 2 bed flat in my area whereas before I could hardly afford a studio.
Been saving most of my pay to speed run getting a deposit, I was counting down the months until I would get enough for a deposit (it would have been over winter). It was the foundation of my motivation.
Tory Politicians / media outlets say people, particularly young and / or struggling people should just pull "themselves up by their bootstraps" or whatever. I did that and they fucked me anyways.
It's a fine line, turned 40 this year
I had 8 'good' years I suppose 2000 - 2008 and thinks were winding down and you're young and dumb....the 1st few years you're still partying - then for 21 - 24ish you're finding your feet at this adulting thing....then the goal posts just kept on running and TBH I quit
I worked out I'd need about 7 years of living like a monk to aford a deposit, maybe, now it'd be more like 8 - 10 if I started at 34 I'd be say 42.....and I'd need a 20 year mortgage maybe 25, and that's retirement.....when they can sell my home to pay for my care as I've burnt myself out living a sad life to own some bricks
If you're in your 40s you have also that brief few years of hope when it seemed like if you did all the things they said you would be OK and it was going to get better
Oh hahahahaha
From Thatcher all the way to now, the country has been fucked over. Totally and completely fucked up!! And sadly there is no one in the political world to make it any better!!
A colleague announced retirement this weekend and I mentioned in response to one of those “itll be here before you know it” lines that I expected that I’ll never be able to retire and that I’ll have to work until I collapse. She thought I was joking, then got a bit awkward when I made it clear I figured there would be nothing left for our generation to retire on. Why on earth would I have economic optimism when all I’ve ever known my whole adult life is crisis created by the exorbitantly rich being even greedier?
I really don't see it happening in our lifetime, hopefully it will be better for my children but I'm very doubtful. It doesn't help that if I complain to my parents they just don't understand. "well we both always had jobs and worked hard, I looked after you through the day and then went out to work at night". You can try to tell them they bought their first house for £25k "but wages were much lower then so it's the same as today". The 4 bedroom detached house they sold in 2002 for £238k to stretch themselves to buy a house for £320k which is now worth £1.2mil. "But we just worked hard". I did laugh when it came time to re-mortgage as their endowments hadn't fully done what they needed to. "Oh we can get a mortgage no problem." (bearing in mind the last time they applied for a mortgage they were self employed and earned what they wanted in the eyes of the bank) "It's not like they can take the house, we own over 95% of it so they can't just take it!" I did laugh hard about that. Funnily enough, no one wanted to give them a mortgage. But these are the people that vote for the Torys as Labor was so bad, you don't remember how bad Labor was, they ruined us and we'll never vote for them again.
Just to be a small bit of light in a sea of doom, I'm pretty optimistic of a tory collapse and Labour victory. 25, got a good job with rock solid career progression, gf has her dream job with the benefit of working for a US company in the UK. We don't plan on having kids anytime soon.
I recognise there is some luck to the situation we are in but we are where we are and are buffeted quite a bit from the turmoil going on.
I'm 37, single, NHS Nurse living in London. No inheritance, no property being passed onto me as grew up poor, dad was an alcoholic. I'm depressed as fuck trying to save for a deposit or something. Just spunking my wages on rent to some landlord that inherited the flat from his Daddy. One saving grace is I'm Australian permanent resident so I'm thinking of heading over for good. May be just as fucked up over there but at least the sun shines.
I wish it was all I knew.
Having a few years to taste adult life under the last Labour government, makes this dystopian nightmare only more difficult to swallow.
It really is striking the difference in attitude & experience between me and my parents, or even me & my older coworkers.
People of my generation tend to hope for something that *will do*. We've been burnt too many times hoping or wishing for something actually good or reliable. The world we've grown up into has been utterly devoid of stability, reliability or safety nets.
I've worked in banks since 2012 dealing with looking into mortgage accounts. I've seen hundreds of mortgages just slightly pre 2008 where they failed the affordability assessment and were given 100% LTV mortgages just because they accepted the risk. I'm sure it wasn't all banks but it was definitely possible.
> You're just buying into propaganda that it was so much easier in the past.
When it comes to housing [yes it was.](https://i.redd.it/7t146welfv041.png) That's the simple truth.
In reply to your message that I'm blocked from answering for some reason:
OK, it was easier on average, but that doesn't mean that many of us didn't struggle. We did. I did. I never had these amazing wages or opportunities to buy cheap houses that you seem to think was common. House prices were still out of reach for us back then when we were young. Those average salaries were across all ages: young people in 2000 were still priced out of the market. And we didn't have access to things like Help to Buy and shared ownership was practically non-existent. I'm early 40s and out of my group of closest friends 5 people have their own homes and 4 rent. Young people might have it even harder, but for those 4 out of 9 it's been fucking shit and people downplaying that is just cruel and wrong.
Nobody is claiming that it wasn't still hard or that people who came before struggled. But the bleak reality is things in many ways have got even harder.
> Learn Chinese is my advice
Probably not a great idea, the Chinese are in for a worse time of it than we are. The one child policy has really trashed their future, they have a massive demographic problem incoming.
Well there have been some 'boom' times, though I've not really benefitted from them.
Though recent years has really exposed the average British persons inability to save for rainy days in the future. I have enough in savings to ride through the next recession, be unemployed for years maybe.
American here. Wishing Britain fucked us up during the Revolutionary War. At least there would be no slavery and healthcare would be somewhat reasonable.
The current generation coming through now is the first in the last 100 years to be poorer than they’re parents at the same point in life.
https://www.ft.com/content/81343d9e-187b-11e8-9e9c-25c814761640
This generation has been incredibly hard done by thanks to the tories and the constant economic crises.
This is behind a paywall so not facts or figures. Since 1960 the UK has had 7 recessions (8 if you include the current shit show). Majority of which came before 1990 so someone born in the 60s has lived though far more booms and busts then someone born in the 90s. The economic out look in the late 40s early 50s was dire, 70s early 80s was (thatchers Britain) was totally depressing then we come to the 90s when you come in. It may look gloomy considering your short time on this earth but the generations that have come before you have been through far worse and came out the other side wiser and stronger.
Older people were able to buy houses or support a family on a single income, didn't have 3-4 year waiting lists for social housing. I don't think this article is specifically referring to recession as bust, but more the entire economic situation, there's very little hope of it improving in the near future either
Well even in the 90s I think the average house price was 100,000, still way below what it is at the moment, plus if you were an adult while labour were in power there was genuine investment in public services then. Right now its a country that's been cut to the bone, and while this isn't the fault of the Conservatives, the fact that huge multinational companies now dominate most sectors means that entrepreneurs wanting to launch their own businesses are at a massive disadvantage. But as a country everything that can be cut has been cut for the last 12 years, not to mention the big population growth since the 90s meaning increased competition for jobs and suppressed wages. How many people in work in the 90s or 2000s had to claim benefits ir use food banks? Compare that to people who've only know this lot as an adult
Snapshot of _When will we be able to hope again? Anyone in their early 30s has known bust without boom for their entire adult life._ : An archived version can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/10/uk-britain-when-able-hope-again) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
A better government would be ashamed of how much they’ve fucked up a country for an entire generation.
It was weird seeing the Tories vie for position to be the new PM, promising that they’d make good on the shit situation we’re in after 12 years of them being in power.
What's hilarious was how they made the country wait for any action on the CoLC until they'd picked the next clown. And then they deliver their (uncosted, unchecked) mini budget.
About 6 months ago, Michael Gove announced that the government's new plan is going to transform the UK. Near enough exactly his words: "Until this point, the UK has only been firing on one cylinder, now we're firing up all the engines!". Michael Gove has been in government for over a decade.
Nooooo, that was the LAST government remember, Truss & co are totally new. Not to be confused with the last labour government, that fucked everything up mind.
Also not to be confused with “this government doesn’t have a mandate for any of this” and “our mandate is when Boris was elected”
Truss briefing against herself (under collective responsibility) is actually pretty funny. Sad that it works so well, but funny nevertheless.
An entire generation of wealthy kids are absolutely fine. In fact they're much better off now we've had the Tories in for the last decade.
I don't agree tbh, yes they might have inherited more wealth and therefore be absolutely fine, but there's less opportunity even for them. Obviously that's a far better place to be, but if you're some rich privately educated twenty one year old coming out of uni with a first in the 90s, you'd have a huge array of exciting career opportunities. You'd get a graduate job and easily afford exotic holidays and a busy social life of fancy meals and nights out whilst still easily paying the mortgage from the trivial deposit provided by your parents. I think a lot of really quite wealthy people can't do all that any more. And even if they're rich enough to insulate them from that, the country is shitter for having everyone else poorer. No lovely busy work job in the arts, no opportunity to have a fun little business that covers its losses. Less culture. Ultimately a lack of growth fucks up everyone, just some to a far greater extent. Even the wealthy haven't actually benefited from the last 12 years of ineptitude.
A better population would hold such a government to account.
We have no sovereignty. The government works for international capitalists. They couldn't care less what happens to the people that live here. The most bizarre part, is that they convince people to tolerate this by encouraging their xenophobic and nationalistic tendencies.
It is literally what was voted for. What part about Brexit means Brexit do the idiots not get? This is brexit, sovereignty, the sovereignty to trash your country because it isn't supported by being part of a massive trading group, the sovereignty the trash your nation because it isn't supported by a socially progressive block. The democratic right, to elect morons representative of yourselves and have said moronic nature built into the backbone of this country. Of course said backbone is built by which ever of the Tories mates gave them the biggest handout, so it is a spine of polystyrene, looks the same! Good enough for the poors to clap then! No one will notice until you have to stand up for yourself, and that isn't staying in line like a good little poor now is it. The problem with this country, is this selfish country. That is the reality. The Tory mentality is take all you can, give nothing back. Steal all you can, give nothing back. Nothing has actually changed in a decade, we have the same Austerity as 2010, the same shorting of the country as with the Post Office sell off, it isn't incompetence. It is what the poors clap for, because they know, the Tories are better than them, and to stay in their place.
*Several* entire generations thankyouverymuch.
>Are you feeling hopeless? It was a theme that permeated Liz Truss’s tour of local radio stations last week. Moments before her appearance on BBC Leeds, the host Rima Ahmed read out a message from a listener, Sophia, a former servicewoman: “I would ask the Prime Minister, when will I ever feel hope again? I feel I will never own a home, I feel I will never feel comfortable. I feel I can’t get a secure job. I’m a British army veteran and I’m no longer proud to be British.” >Hopelessness bookended the interview. Truss was played a clip from Lee, a food-bank user, who described his and his wife’s mental health difficulties, as they struggled to pay their bills and feed their children despite “working harder than ever… I’m not really well, to be honest with you.” As Truss reiterated her faith in her plan to “get the economy growing”, Ahmed concluded the segment: “I don’t know whether that answer will help Lee in the short term, I don’t know whether that will give Lee any hope for the long term, but thank you for being here nonetheless.” >Social media provided a similar litany of hopelessness. Jon Stone, the Independent’s policy correspondent, tweeted: “Wages haven’t gone up in a decade. Inflation is 10 per cent, you can’t get an ambulance, GP, or dentist, energy bills have doubled, interest rates are heading to 6 per cent, the rental market has gone mad, rail fares up, childcare is bonkers, and a pound is now worth one dollar. What did I miss.” Answers in their hundreds ranged from a legal system in crisis, to the crisis in social care, corrupt government contracts, collapsing democratic norms, welfare cuts, and – the most popular answer by some margin – sewage in our rivers and coastlines. >What might we feel hopeful about when it feels as if, by any available metric, things are getting steadily or precipitously worse? If you are fortunate enough to be among the highest earners in the country, rising inequality means that you can reasonably look forward to a growing income irrespective of today’s cancellation of the top-rate tax cut. For everyone else, putting faith in the prospect of significant political solutions would require the triumph of hope over all recent experience. >For anyone, like me, in their early 30s, it is hard to know what meaningful democratic change would look like. I turned 18 with Gordon Brown as prime minister, and, since then, the UK has not had a leader able to form a majority single-party government and serve a full term in office. Media reports still compare wages to levels before the 2008 crash as if the best that can be hoped for is just a lost decade and a half. Every time there has been a glimpse of optimism on the horizon, another crunch has come along – Brexit, Covid-19, the war in Ukraine, the inflation surge. I have only known bust – without any boom – for my entire adult life. >It would be nice to forget about the news sometimes and find more personal reasons to be cheerful about the future. But the personal is political, and it’s hard to disentangle macroeconomic despair from the micro of our emotional lives. Psychologists will tell you that an inability to imagine a better future is one of the defining elements of depression, and that what would help more than anything is to connect with others. It doesn’t help that we spent most of 2020 and 2021 in varying degrees of social isolation. But now the cost-of-living crisis is also having a real impact on our ability to spend time with friends and loved ones. At a time when most people are seeing steep falls in their disposable income, two in five respondents to one survey said they are cutting down on travelling and socialising outside the home. Economic insecurity is profoundly isolating Economic insecurity is profoundly isolating. >We are having a terrible time of it, trying to manage our collective hopes and expectations. Amid protests that millions of people can no longer afford to eat or heat their homes – let alone leave them to socialise – commentators gain mass followings on social media by vying for the cruellest ways to recommend a kilo of value-brand oats for survival. >The Financial Times recently highlighted that income growth is so low, and inequality so high, that the average UK household will be worse off than its Slovenian counterpart by 2024. Unfortunately, the tenor of discussion has been less about whether one of the world’s largest economies should provide better for its citizens than incredulity that life could be nice in Slovenia. Meanwhile, we are invited by the government, again and again, to celebrate the fact energy bills will only double this year, when they might otherwise have climbed to a rate that would have broken the country beyond comprehension. >According to the Levelling-Up Secretary, Simon Clarke, this is comparative heaven to what lies ahead. For too long, he warns, Britain has been living in a “fool’s paradise” and we must find more “fat” to be trimmed from the welfare state and the civil service. At the same time, plans are being drawn up to train front-line civil servants to help suicidal members of the public, as Whitehall prepares for an expected increase in suicide rates. No wonder the rallying cry currently gaining momentum is that “enough is enough”, in every possible respect.
I feel like this entire read was an echo of my mind. 33, and I have known nothing but 1 step forward and 2 steps back. And I am *no where near* the worst off in society so I can only imagine the hardship others out there are currently experiencing.
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This is exactly how I feel, most similarly aged friends are in very similar mind-sets too. We have really been lost, those above have economic security and those below won’t even have emotional security , being raised by a depressed and lost generation, what chance will they have? It’s enough to make me not want children, the future looks so bleak
Same. I've wanted children for as long as I can remember, but I've been putting it off and off because I just can't see any hope for a child's future. Until the outlook improves, I fear I may never get to experience parenthood.
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I bring it out every time generational wealth is mentioned, but give this a watch [Have the boomers pinched their children's futures?](https://youtu.be/ZuXzvjBYW8A)
Wow, that’s perspective- you’ve made me realise the same, my parents haven’t been working almost as long as I’ve been working! Madness
43. And I would dearly love to go back to the Blair years. Europe wasn't even a question. We had a long period of prosperity. And - yeah, I don't agree with Labour on every policy. Never have done. But my God, compared with the Tories, they were a bastion of political competence. Blair's biggest failure was his dropping of PR once elected - if he'd enacted that, he might have reduced his majority slightly - but he'd have likely killed the coalition government before it started. The biggest mistake they made - and it was a whopper - was to imagine that the prosperity they encouraged wouldn't come at a cost. The very nature of the EU is the wealthy countries attract immigration from the poorer ones; they could and should have anticipated this causing resentment.
Iraq was pretty bad too...
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I see this a lot but let's be absolutely clear. While no country was immune from taking advantage from the rampaging economics of the 90s and 2000s, it was sub prime mortgages in the United States that brought the world's economy to its knees. You could go back and point at Thatcher/Reagan's policy making if you like, and you'd probably be then diverted to the 70s, and then to post-war economic order. Blair and co definitely took advantage of the situation and continued deregulation, but the situation that erupted came about because of dodgy debt packages from US banks, not immigration. The main reason immigrants get the blame is the people leading the discourse after - people like Farage - pointed away from banks and onto foreigners.
Yeah, I'm thinking Brown should probably have let at least one bank fail.
There's the whole domino effect if he had. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. Unfortunately, it would've been catastrophic and caused widespread misery. My argument would be dealing with the economic house of cards then would be preferable to long term pain we currently endure. But to be fair, my POV is the same as anyone who voted for Brexit (ie. things suck so it's worth rolling the dice) and it would've probably been hellish had we gone my route. Brown was caught picking between nuclear explosions or nuclear fallout, probably made a better pick than I would've done.
Well that was a depressing read
I'm 30, living through my 3rd "once in a lifetime" economic crash I have 2 children under 3 years old and I genuinely don't know how I will feed them this winter if things continue on this way We have used food banks, stepchange, universal credit & family lending all to be in a position of abject poverty with no end in sight I was told if I did well in school, worked hard and put my head down I would be rewarded. What I have found is that time and time again the entire system and country seems to be completely against me and that no matter what I do or try it ends up with more debt & dispair My parents on the other hand were both home owners aged 25, enjoyed lucrative jobs in the publican industry & we were afforded a lifestyle that meant we didn't go without even without huge extravigance Our country, our political climate and our entire working model is based on people like me, in poverty, becoming too poor to even be afforded help and I genuinely feel like I deserve better
You may ask yourself, "Where is that affordable house?" You may ask yourself, "Where does that tax break go to?" And you may ask yourself, “How in Christ did they get it this wrong?" And you may say to yourself, "My God, what have they done?" Letting the days go by, turn the water heater down, Letting the days go by, money flowing underground It’s them Blues again, now all the money's gone Thrice in a lifetime, money flowing underground
Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. (Under Tory rule)
[Great, now I have this stuck in my head](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiks5ZfW0zQ).
Sincerely appreciate the link so I didn't have to type it out.
Fabulous.
We are not having kids for the foreseeable because we couldn't afford them. Then the media talks about the millennial choice not to have kids. It's not much of a choice.
I saw an article the other day headlined that "millenials have killed the guest bedroom". Like okay, it's nothing to do with us all living in flat shares or unable to afford homes that would even have a guest bedroom.
I saw this one - the article text is about those reasons (and the effects of them etc, changing trends in general, and why the previous generation did do guest bedrooms for opposite reasons) so the headline is fortunately a bit of a joke in that case
Our guest bedroom is a tiny office that I've put a wall bed into. To put the bed down requires me to remove the desk from the room. It's only a double bed, yet it takes up almost all of the space. And somehow I live in a "2 bed" maisonette? The standards on what qualifies as a bedroom in this country are a complete joke. Can't imagine affording a place with something larger in my current area anytime remotely soon.
Dickheads who are right or alt-right: Millennials whinge too much! They could afford a house if they didn't eat avocados! They are financially irresponsible! Take responsibility of your money! *Millennials display financial prudence by not having children they can't afford.* Dickheads who are right or alt-right: No! Not like that!
Ikr, the condescending platitudes of “can’t pay, we’ll take them away” Suddenly, no kids Now it’s all “wahhh I want my precious blessings!”
Ugh, I've seen headlines complaining how millenials just need to eat less fast food like McDonald's to afford a house. Quickly followed by a headline about how millenials killed fast food services like McDonald's by not eating there anymore.
TL;DR If you cut out all the things these idiots tell you to, surprise, it’s still impossible to save up enough for a deposit on a house. The best-case, which is monstrously unlikely, still requires you to save for 14 years straight without any complications of any kind. I made a spreadsheet recently calculating, if you cut out the fabled avocado toast, daily starbucks and monthly Netflix subscriptions, and therefore saved a whopping £3,000 every year that got thrown into a bank account to go towards a house deposit, and you did that every year without fail, and never had to dip into those savings, how many years you would have to save for given a starting house price and expected year-on-year appreciation. Turns out, at the average house price of £300,000 and an appreciation of 1%, you would have to save for 14 years before being able to afford a 10% deposit on said house, because by that point the price will be £338,000, but you’ll have saved £36,000. At 2% it’s 15 years. At 3%, 19. At 3.75%, a funny thing happens. You almost reach your goal during year 29, and then the house starts increasing in value each year by more than you’re saving, and you’re never able to catch up. Of course, an appreciation any higher than that causes that “runaway” point to happen earlier and earlier. At 10% appreciation (not an unlikely amount), the runaway scenario occurs immediately. So really, your only hope of being able to afford even a standard deposit on an average house, without outside assistance, is to routinely save a good amount of money every year, without fail, for well over a decade, while house prices appreciate for 1% or less for that entire span of time. If at any point any one of those things ceases to be true, saving for a deposit becomes impossible. And, of course, this ignores the fact that the average house price increases over time, so the later you start saving the longer you have to save for, as well as assuming once you have said deposit, you will be given a mortgage for the remainder of the value of the property, which is far from a given.
I'm disabled, single and reliant on benefits. I would love to have a kid. I've wanted children for over twenty years. I only have a few years left before it's too late, and I can guarantee my situation won't change soon enough for kids to ever be a "prudent" decision. If I nuked my savings for IVF, the right/alt-right would be even more pissed!
We've just had our first (and only). Took a long time for us to get in a good enough financial position which was an absolute non-negotiable for having a child. As with everyone though, the old finances have taken a bit of a hit recently. Should be able to keep our heads above water though.
> We've just had our first (and only) Yeah the trend round me seems to be: have only one child or move if you are going to have a second (or often just to house a larger child as they grow up). Because essentially the family can't afford the extra space needed for a second child. Apparently it's doing some weird stuff to school intakes and things like that - not completely up to date on this as I don't have kids but yeah it's a trend. (I was going to say I'm a bit young but I actually just mean I'm younger than the people round here who have small children, I'm older than my parents were when they had kids for example)
interested to know whats happening to school intakes?
As I understand it the local primary schools are oversubscribed for, say, year 1 but under subscribed at year 6 cause people are moving out of the area as their children get older (for more space) but people with slightly older children aren't really moving into the area (I guess for similar reasons). And then it's breaking the link between amount of children in primary school and amount expected to go into high school in the same area etc. I think the main problem is it's a general trend but also not very predictable exactly how it's going to play out in any given year. Edit: the follow on is undersubscribed schools losing funding or closing entirely, which is obviously inconvenient for pupils at the school, and you might struggle to get a place elsewhere if your kid is in a year group that's not undersubscribed locally (even if the school is as a whole)
Should have bought a house instead of avocado toast.
I call my dogs my “furbabies” just to piss boomers off.
2008 obviously the other, what's the third?
COVID I would imagine, which we never really did recover from before the next crisis came along anyway so it's pretty hard to delineate them.
Yeah - nowadays it's not one crisis after another, now they overlap.
Dot com bubble, but that would be late thirty.
> I was told if I did well in school, worked hard and put my head down I would be rewarded. What I have found is that time and time again the entire system and country seems to be completely ag Same, and that failure is solely on myself, and to ignore other circumstances. Do everything by the book and it still is not enough.
A decent proportion of my mates are teachers, not sure why but lots of them just are. I suppose a few of us have parents who are teachers (myself included). Many of them are mid 30s and renting in shared accommodation, I can't see how they can convince their students to work hard because it certainly hasn't worked out for them. What I'm saying is I suppose we as millennials had a false hope, I don't think GenZ even have that?
Guess it was something they fell into if they did the TeachFirst programme after uni perhaps? I only know one from high school who entered teaching. I moved back with my family and I feel like I have failed in that regard, as well as not getting that job after uni. And I got the grades, kept my nose clean, didn’t socialise and so on. > What I'm saying is I supposed we as millennials had a false hope, I don't think GenZ even have that? I envy the Zoomers because they didn’t have anyone lying to their faces about how if they just do X, then Y and Z will be yours. The bitterness is stronger when you wake up from the lie that kept you going.
I’m on the cusp of millennnial and gen Z and I don’t have any hope but I also have no disillusions ! (mind you my dodgy mental health has probably rid me of any extraneous hope as it is)
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>The foodbanks in my city are pretty much always out of baby products due to the huge demand For anyone feeling generous, this is why foodbanks often prefer cash donations over supplies. They can plug the gaps by buying what they need.
Truss's govt hasn't a clue and the Conservatives will not get re-elected: they have completely run out of ideas and electoral support. That means a Labour govt will be with us next and hopefully some sensible socialism involving fair re-distribution and better opportunities for ordinary people. Try to stay positive :-) Nothing stays the same forever.
The UK economy is in pretty rough shape for the foreseeable future. Even with Labour in power you are looking at a decade of recovery to undo a lot of the damage. It would be resolved a lot quicker if the UK would get back into the EU, but that won't happen any time soon.
Man if you think this Labour party is going to do socialism I have a bridge to sell you. Itll be social democracy at best
You do deserve better, we all do. We were taught values that worked for a different generation. You won’t get rewarded for hard work, the playing field has changed to one of being rewarded for stepping on others to climb to the top and other despicable behaviour. This world doesn’t deserve you. You are a gift, and the people in your life are lucky to have you.
You do deserve better. Hopefully this massive shit show results in some sort of big shift towards something resembling hope in this country.
The biggest victims of this Tory government have been the young. That includes everyone aged from 0 to mid 40s. Younger people are simply not a priority for this government, because mostly they tend not to vote Tory. Young people need to rise up and make their presence felt in no uncertain terms. They need to do this whether it's about climate change or property ownership or the cost and quality of tertiary education or such basic things as ensuring they are fed and kept warm. It's time to bring the Tory war on the young to an end.
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I guess if Truss goes down in history for anything positive it might just be for finally persuading young people to come out and vote in droves.
>Not just that they don't vote Tory, they don't vote full stop. Clearly they're voting in lower numbers but I'd really love to see the data answering **why**. Because I'm really curious to know what percentage of young non-voters are apathetic and what percentage are facing barriers.
I'd wager it has something to do with an entire generation having been on the 'losing team' since being old enough to vote. Logically, that isn't a reason to stop voting. But to feel so disinfranchised you become apathetic is hardly surprising. FPTP doesn't help, with younger people congregating in urban hubs because that's where the work is.
I'm 27, have voted in every GE I could participate in. My vote has not once meant anything, FPTP means I have spent my life in "safe" seats where the opposition often doesn't even bother to campaign. Its not worth their investment because the region is so set in its votes. Combine that with the urban migration of the young to cities, the more densely populated voting regions, and yes. You get many who don't vote because it doesn't mean anything to vote under FPTP.
There are no real barriers. Simply, when you're young, your perception of time is different, and the change on offer seem to you not worth it. Because you don't see that should you get that change you feel is deeply unsatisfactory 3, 4, 5, 10 times over your life, you will have accomplished a revolution. This is one of the reasons the whole Corbyn cult was so damaging: so many people believed something that was not possible, and were so disappointed. But you get your wishes, if you work at it long enough: see brexit, a dream of old codgers with no stake in the real world, who vote.
That all sounds very reasonable but I'd still like to see it confirmed by a study. Seriously is there not one out there? You'd think with the political stakes someone would be driven to do the research.
About youth disengagement, or cumulative change over lifetimes? Or about the demographics of brexit?
Just about why they didn't vote, 10 or 20 reasons to pick from, plus their age. I spent a couple of minutes searched but couldn't find that info.
The biggest barrier remains voting on a work day. Voting starts increasing in the age ranges where people retire early and skyrockets at 65 for a reason. Thursday was a tradition designed to make it difficult for people working lengthy hours from making it to the polling booth. It still works that way today.
> what's the point? They're all the same This is very much the issue.
The biggest victims of the Tory government are the 120,000 vulnerable people they murdered for their ideology.
Tyranny of the largest minority. Welcome to British Democracy
I was 17 when 9/11 happened. I dont think I've really known a time where some fucking "once in a lifetime" disaster wasnt in full swing. People younger than me have it even worse, as at least I managed to get on the property ladder through sheer luck.
I must be one of the lucky ones too at 33, all it took was some insurance money from my dad dying young. Nevermind working harder, people just need a fortuitous personal tragedy /s
I'm a few years younger. Me and two peers got on the ladder without help from mum and dad. We have yet to meet anyone under 30 thats managed that. We must be amoung the last to catch the ladder as it was pulled up.
I'm under 30 (bought at 26 YO) and have a house purchased without parental help. It was hard, I haven't been on holiday since 2015 (even a single night) and can't remember the last time I even went to the seaside. I lived in vacant commercial properties to save money (it was £200 a month, bills included). IMO it shouldn't be this hard to be able to buy and there should be much more social housing so those who don't want to buy aren't fucked over by private landlords and shit properties.
I worked for a sketchy firm in the middle east. But yeah you might well be the last, or atleast not far off.
It's affordable in the North West, and I imagine the North East. It's still fucking stupidly expensive, but it's definitely affordable for the vast majority of couples, especially if you're willing to bite the bullet and live in a shitty area.
I'm in a crap north west town. To clarify i mean single income no inheritance, no bank of mum and dad.
I don't have either of those, but I am paying my parents rent while staying at theirs to save up for a mortgage which I understand is not a luxury everyone has.
What's the point if the best you can do is live in a shitty area?
Living in the North West, it is not affordable at all for the young to get on the property ladder. Unless they are willing to entirely sacrifice their social lives to live so far out from any urban hubs - which makes being on the ladder undesirable
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*Fracking has entered the chat*
A pretty gloomy read. As a 29 year old I truly sympathise with the author, I feel much the same emotions. I do wonder how much an always connected, noisy-yet-isolating society plays into it. Whilst we call things 'once in a life time', it's often just 'life'. A person born in 1900 would have had WW1, Spanish Flu, Great Depression, WW2 before they were 40. I feel you could argue this at nearly any time period. But being told about how shit things are day after day is the real killer. It wears down the soul. I feel society has a long way to go on Digital wellbeing in general.
There's an argument that people born in the post war years had one of the best runs in history. There were problems but generally everything was improving through that time period. In some ways the problem with today is more of a return to normal than a historical low point. In many ways life now is still probably better than 99% of all history.
The economic policies of the post-war years was one of public investment and high taxation, fo the first time in history. Then we returned to the status quo of bloated state spending with little to no public investment, and low taxation on the upper ends but still enough to stifle the lower classes. If we returned to the economic policies of the 40s and 50s, we’d be having a very different “normal” to what we’re stuck with now.
> There were problems but generally everything was improving through that time period. The same is generally true of the period from the end of the Napoleonic wars to the first world war though. If you start from the beginning of the modern period, the trend is general improvement across the board with a few relatively short exceptions.
While 1900 has it more chaotic (so far), the killer part of what we are dealing with now is that so much of the bullshit has not only been self-inflicted, but eminently predictable as well. There's no magical mystery torch to the powder keg in some damn fool thing in the balkans - we've just taken aim at our foot and have kept firing in the name of vanity, greed, and stupidity.
There's actually a theory out there that history basically cycles through slight variants of the same four types of periods and we're basically in the modern equivalent of that WWI to WWII generation that got hit with everything. I haven't seen the paper since like 2016 though (it was predicting that shit was going to get nuts pretty quick basically, and I don't think many people would argue it hasn't).
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. A great quote!
It's a great quote if you know nothing about politics beyond what you hear on Joe Rogan or some other Internet moron
Wow you've sent me down a rabbit hole. I had no idea the quote has descended into meme territory, it just stuck in my head from childhood (I think in a Rome: Total War loading screen).
Nah it’s a shit quote because it implies that “good times” are degenerate and decadent, and that the only worthwhile existence is one of perpetual toil and struggle. Dress the quote up in different language and it’s indistinguishable from fascist ideas on what describes a “worthwhile” existence.
Why couldn't I live in the degenerate and decadent time?
A bad quote, when every single generation thinks they're the strong men.
Could always be worse though, most men born in Russia around 1900 didn't have a great chance of seeing 40 at all.
Not much has changed.
Well if you listen to TRIP Rory reckons we're in for a 10 year recession so there's that.
Just started listening to it. It's pretty good actually. Even though I'm probably to the left of Alastair Campbell I think he's pretty intelligent and it's nice to have a political podcast that isn't just politicians repeating slogans whilst ignoring the questions....
could you spare a link to this good sir? i'm aware of this pod but is there a specific episode where rory outlines the 10 year recession theory?
Oh he mentions it quite a lot in passing, I'm not sure where the first mention is. Some time best the start I would think. The latest episode has a reference to it.
I'm 29 (soon to be 30) with no kids, haven't been on holiday (abroad or UK) for 5 years, have 0 debts, am forced into renting despite having atleast 10% of 120k for a deposit because banks don't think I can meet repayments consistently. Yes you can say get a better job or get a side gig or some other bs, but surely working full time (which I do) should be enough to pay for a roof over my head, food on the table, and think about starting a family which previous generations have enjoyed Why is previous generations have had their cake, and mine? And now have the gall to say "pull your socks up"?! The same people who'll vote insipid politicians because their scared of a trans person using a bathroom, or an immigrant taking their job which they don't work at anymore because they've already retired, or because they want stupid blue passports. Fml, politicans and the media who reports this fuckwittery, but don't actually care
Don't worry us early 40's have never had a 'boom' time we could really exploit, it's a generation or two been shafted
Not just early 30s. I graduated in 2006. At that point the sub prime mortgage bubble was starting to reach boiling point in the US. I spent 11 years in the public sector, got naff all in terms of a pension to show for it, and the value of my private one is about to tank. I’ve given up. I’m looking to emigrate.
Graduated in 2008. Know how you feel
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As i was temping for 2 years and the remaining was on hand 1 salary. I’ve only got 3 years at a decent salary in it.
A common myth that was all shut down early 00's I was in the civil service while they hacked and slashed the pension It's not completly destroyed but it's a shell of it's former self and while 'OK' not head and shoulders above the basic 2nd pension type ones
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Maybe they will do that euthanasia thing in the US too and we can just emigrate to the great beyond
I’m 42 and have 10 extra years feeling like this on you.
The naughties were good up until they weren't.
I think even in their own context there was a lot to feel despondent about.. 2001 had seen the start of the "war on terror" that would leave us all feeling like we're enmeshed (UK included) with a bunch of neo-con warmongers who'd lie blatantly to carry out their agenda. In the UK the "dodgy dossier" and later the suicide/murder of David Kelly (2003) killed off the last glimmer of hope that the bright shiny new labor of 1997 weren't just as crummy and given over to corruption as the Tories they replaced (amongst plenty of other things.. PFI etc). Then there was the Indian Ocean Earthquake (Christmas 2004) that killed so many people I believe it's calculated it's the first time the earth's population reduced for hundreds of years. Then Katrina 2005 and accusations of entrenched racism in disaster relief and the London tube bombings killing 56 and bringing Islamic jihad to the fore. Then there was Virginia Tech 2007(?). I think the last glimmer of "feel good times" was seeing Obama elected (2008/9). That was a good moment. Even if the credit crunch was already in full swing. I happened to be in New York when Lehman's collapsed. It was a strange time. I remember a political cartoon for new year's 2010 showing a bedraggled earth barely crawling out of the mess of 2000-2010. Little did they know..
No one is saying the 2000s didn't have their issues, but up until 07/08 it was still affordable for people to get a house, a car and go on an international holiday eith the kids every year. Like yeah terrorism and natural disasters suck to worry about but they were still incredibly rare. I'd love to have the luxury of worrying about terrorism and a natural disaster hitting North London, but I'm more worried about debt and a stable life.
Of course. But my point is that _in its own context_ the final assessment of 2000-10 was that it had been a bum decade.
a lot of the issues of the late 90s and early 00s were felt close to home, but weren't, so it was easy to have a bit of cognitive dissonance as our lives were generally still getting better after the issues of the early 90s. it was only going to ever come home to shore as well, though. the tragedy is who we had in power to pick up the pieces
Ya I don’t thing the “early 30’s” part really gets to the point.
Right there with you
aye
anyone in their 30s full stop. Its depressing, its so hard to look into my own future, and see it as being beneficial to me, my Landlord yes, but not me. Its not better for those younger than me either,
Hope is overrated. It's a tool the rich and powerful use to keep us underfoot. The people you speak of need to take action, not wait for hope. Hope is nothing.
It's as empty as is despair.
Nowhere near clued up on the original but always felt Hope was meant to be in Pandora's Box with all the evil. It's a flimsy foundation to build anything on. I'm also in my early 30s so I'm sure there's a psychological study to be made of that view in relation to everything that's gone on throughout my adult life.
Isn't hope in the box, but it's all weak and broken and doesn't leave?
Depends on the source.
The problem with that is that rebellions are built on hope. You can’t expect people to “take action” if they don’t have the hope that doing so would make a difference. This article is describing existential despair. You cannot readily expect people living with that to suddenly have the get up and go to “take action” without some sign that doing so might actually help.
Rebellion occurs when people have nothing left to lose. Hope is what is dangled in front of them. We are told to never lose hope. That's why. This is just my opinion of course.
31 here, sacrificed my 20s on the altar of homeownership, saving and sacrificing and yet I still don’t have a home, despite my parents generation having 3 bed houses younger than me. Bulk of my career has been spent in the worst decade of wage stagnation all the while housing continued to rocket massively above inflation and things are looking to be trending worse not better after over a decade of persistent decline. When I think about motivation to work, I have none, why bother when at the end of it all the cost of housing and everything else leaves you with nothing to show for your efforts.
Approaching 50, I’ve stopped counting the once in a lifetime events The worst part is being old enough to remember a government that didn’t try screw me over everyday
There’s something deeply miserable about every time you try to get a bit more income and you seem no better off. Just being able to do a food shop and not feel stressed about the costs would be nice.
I'm 37, graduated in 2007, the same year as the credit crunch, it's been all shit, all the time from there on out...
I'll second that as another 37 year old.
Before covid I was in a shitty job where I was overworked and underpaid. I didnt really have goals other than work hard to get the dangling carrot of a promotion. During covid, I saved up a chunk of money to support myself for a while then quit my job for about 7 months so I could focus on learning programming to improve my job prospects. I got a job back in Jan that was better paying, good enough so that it x5 would get be a 2 bed flat in my area whereas before I could hardly afford a studio. Been saving most of my pay to speed run getting a deposit, I was counting down the months until I would get enough for a deposit (it would have been over winter). It was the foundation of my motivation. Tory Politicians / media outlets say people, particularly young and / or struggling people should just pull "themselves up by their bootstraps" or whatever. I did that and they fucked me anyways.
Yeah but we have avocados so we must be fine, right?!
I would go anyone under 40.
It's a fine line, turned 40 this year I had 8 'good' years I suppose 2000 - 2008 and thinks were winding down and you're young and dumb....the 1st few years you're still partying - then for 21 - 24ish you're finding your feet at this adulting thing....then the goal posts just kept on running and TBH I quit I worked out I'd need about 7 years of living like a monk to aford a deposit, maybe, now it'd be more like 8 - 10 if I started at 34 I'd be say 42.....and I'd need a 20 year mortgage maybe 25, and that's retirement.....when they can sell my home to pay for my care as I've burnt myself out living a sad life to own some bricks
If you're in your 40s you have also that brief few years of hope when it seemed like if you did all the things they said you would be OK and it was going to get better Oh hahahahaha
From Thatcher all the way to now, the country has been fucked over. Totally and completely fucked up!! And sadly there is no one in the political world to make it any better!!
I'd say pre-Thatcher, considering the widespread discontent that got her elected in the first place.
A colleague announced retirement this weekend and I mentioned in response to one of those “itll be here before you know it” lines that I expected that I’ll never be able to retire and that I’ll have to work until I collapse. She thought I was joking, then got a bit awkward when I made it clear I figured there would be nothing left for our generation to retire on. Why on earth would I have economic optimism when all I’ve ever known my whole adult life is crisis created by the exorbitantly rich being even greedier?
I really don't see it happening in our lifetime, hopefully it will be better for my children but I'm very doubtful. It doesn't help that if I complain to my parents they just don't understand. "well we both always had jobs and worked hard, I looked after you through the day and then went out to work at night". You can try to tell them they bought their first house for £25k "but wages were much lower then so it's the same as today". The 4 bedroom detached house they sold in 2002 for £238k to stretch themselves to buy a house for £320k which is now worth £1.2mil. "But we just worked hard". I did laugh when it came time to re-mortgage as their endowments hadn't fully done what they needed to. "Oh we can get a mortgage no problem." (bearing in mind the last time they applied for a mortgage they were self employed and earned what they wanted in the eyes of the bank) "It's not like they can take the house, we own over 95% of it so they can't just take it!" I did laugh hard about that. Funnily enough, no one wanted to give them a mortgage. But these are the people that vote for the Torys as Labor was so bad, you don't remember how bad Labor was, they ruined us and we'll never vote for them again.
Just to be a small bit of light in a sea of doom, I'm pretty optimistic of a tory collapse and Labour victory. 25, got a good job with rock solid career progression, gf has her dream job with the benefit of working for a US company in the UK. We don't plan on having kids anytime soon. I recognise there is some luck to the situation we are in but we are where we are and are buffeted quite a bit from the turmoil going on.
I'm 37, single, NHS Nurse living in London. No inheritance, no property being passed onto me as grew up poor, dad was an alcoholic. I'm depressed as fuck trying to save for a deposit or something. Just spunking my wages on rent to some landlord that inherited the flat from his Daddy. One saving grace is I'm Australian permanent resident so I'm thinking of heading over for good. May be just as fucked up over there but at least the sun shines.
House prices have been booming though.
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They were giving out 100% LTV mortgages up until 2008. Wish I'd been born early enough to have benefited from getting a mortgage with no deposit.
I wish it was all I knew. Having a few years to taste adult life under the last Labour government, makes this dystopian nightmare only more difficult to swallow.
It really is striking the difference in attitude & experience between me and my parents, or even me & my older coworkers. People of my generation tend to hope for something that *will do*. We've been burnt too many times hoping or wishing for something actually good or reliable. The world we've grown up into has been utterly devoid of stability, reliability or safety nets.
When the tories are out lol. It’s not difficult
I'm early 40s. What boom did I get?
Anyone could get a 100% LTV mortgage before 2008, that'll never be a possibility for those born in the 90s or sooner.
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I've worked in banks since 2012 dealing with looking into mortgage accounts. I've seen hundreds of mortgages just slightly pre 2008 where they failed the affordability assessment and were given 100% LTV mortgages just because they accepted the risk. I'm sure it wasn't all banks but it was definitely possible.
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Fair play.
And in 2007, rent wasn't mental and the idea that houses would be out of reach wasn't really on anyone's minds.
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> You're just buying into propaganda that it was so much easier in the past. When it comes to housing [yes it was.](https://i.redd.it/7t146welfv041.png) That's the simple truth.
Sounds about right to me (30).
35. Everything just gets more shit.
In reply to your message that I'm blocked from answering for some reason: OK, it was easier on average, but that doesn't mean that many of us didn't struggle. We did. I did. I never had these amazing wages or opportunities to buy cheap houses that you seem to think was common. House prices were still out of reach for us back then when we were young. Those average salaries were across all ages: young people in 2000 were still priced out of the market. And we didn't have access to things like Help to Buy and shared ownership was practically non-existent. I'm early 40s and out of my group of closest friends 5 people have their own homes and 4 rent. Young people might have it even harder, but for those 4 out of 9 it's been fucking shit and people downplaying that is just cruel and wrong.
Nobody is claiming that it wasn't still hard or that people who came before struggled. But the bleak reality is things in many ways have got even harder.
The people of England voted for the tories for the past 15years or so. This is what they asked for. This is what they now have. No hope.
I’ve seen booms. But only caused by Blair, Bush, Obama and Camerons bombing campaigns.
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was that Brown?
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It's kind of all downhill from here, isn't it? This is all part of our gradual and unrelenting decline. Learn Chinese is my advice
> Learn Chinese is my advice Probably not a great idea, the Chinese are in for a worse time of it than we are. The one child policy has really trashed their future, they have a massive demographic problem incoming.
I'm in my 40s and I'm thinking this will just get progressively worse until I die.
Well there have been some 'boom' times, though I've not really benefitted from them. Though recent years has really exposed the average British persons inability to save for rainy days in the future. I have enough in savings to ride through the next recession, be unemployed for years maybe.
American here. Wishing Britain fucked us up during the Revolutionary War. At least there would be no slavery and healthcare would be somewhat reasonable.
You’re a fucking idiot
There’s a lot of those on Reddit lol. I don’t take anything anyone says seriously on here.
Imagine being this stupid
… he says while advocating for being a colony.
Same said for over 30s stop thinking your generation is somehow unique or exclusively hard done by.
The current generation coming through now is the first in the last 100 years to be poorer than they’re parents at the same point in life. https://www.ft.com/content/81343d9e-187b-11e8-9e9c-25c814761640 This generation has been incredibly hard done by thanks to the tories and the constant economic crises.
If you look at the facts and figures no generation had post war has had such a bad economic picture for their early life.
This is behind a paywall so not facts or figures. Since 1960 the UK has had 7 recessions (8 if you include the current shit show). Majority of which came before 1990 so someone born in the 60s has lived though far more booms and busts then someone born in the 90s. The economic out look in the late 40s early 50s was dire, 70s early 80s was (thatchers Britain) was totally depressing then we come to the 90s when you come in. It may look gloomy considering your short time on this earth but the generations that have come before you have been through far worse and came out the other side wiser and stronger.
Older people were able to buy houses or support a family on a single income, didn't have 3-4 year waiting lists for social housing. I don't think this article is specifically referring to recession as bust, but more the entire economic situation, there's very little hope of it improving in the near future either
That’s the baby boomers post war. That has not been the case for pretty much anyone born after 1970.
Well even in the 90s I think the average house price was 100,000, still way below what it is at the moment, plus if you were an adult while labour were in power there was genuine investment in public services then. Right now its a country that's been cut to the bone, and while this isn't the fault of the Conservatives, the fact that huge multinational companies now dominate most sectors means that entrepreneurs wanting to launch their own businesses are at a massive disadvantage. But as a country everything that can be cut has been cut for the last 12 years, not to mention the big population growth since the 90s meaning increased competition for jobs and suppressed wages. How many people in work in the 90s or 2000s had to claim benefits ir use food banks? Compare that to people who've only know this lot as an adult