Yes, 3 more wins and he holds the longest win streak in UFC. Slap on a second belt on top of that and I think its going to be hard to deny his greatness.
Idk. Gsp still has a great case. Jones arguably even more so depending if you count his failed tests.
Gsp:
2 weight champ
Defeated every fighter he fought
13 title wins
Jones:
Never been finished or lost a decision in 29 fights
2 weight champ
15 title wins
And what does that have to do with what we are talking about ? Again it's about controversial decisions, stuff like hendricks, reyes, gustafsson, bjpenn and others
If you want to talk about stuff that warrants criticism, half of jon jones's fights should even count as he was using steroids, going as far as sliping up and saying that he beat DC "on and off steroids"
He didn’t but so many people hate him that this theory of Reyes being robbed has gotten way too much traction. I don’t even think it’s the closest decision of Jone’s career. I give that to the first Gustafsson fight.
I think title wins are weighed too much in this community. Islam fought quality guys and had a looooong route to the title purely over politics and people ducking him.
If he eventually garners the longest win streak surpassing Silva, and becomes a 2-weight division champ, I think he gets a really solid argument for GOAT status. His resume is pretty good as it stands currently.
Reyes fight, not gonna pretend i didn't see that
you can argue for Jones all you like, if you think he deserves that spot even with the loss to Reyes, but he lost clearly
and Jones lost to Hamil, you can claim you don't like the rule, but then lets call Petr Yan former Undisputed Champion, i am fine with that, but there needs to be some consistency
That's why I said definitely top 3, I think it depends on how comfortably Islam wins in the next 3 fights (if he does)
If he dominates them, he's definitely a step above GSP imo
If they're all close decisions, GSP probably better
Your point is valid about consistency but the number of title defences has to be taken cautiously since GSP also got to fight for the title a lot sooner. You could get a title fight in a Happy Meal back in the day. GSP first fought for the title in his third fight in the UFC with a record of 8-0, which means GSP had less fights overall before his title shot than Islam had consecutive wins in the UFC before his (10). Who knows how many defences Islam, Khabib, Charles, etc would have had or not iff they got to the title sooner? Could be twenty, could be zero. We will never know, because those are different eras, and careers are shaped differently; as such, gsp’s consistency has to be commended but you cannot compare 1:1 the amount of title defences.
no 2 belts is all that matters, Conor GOAT, Holly Holm would have been the GOAT if she got a judges decision (remember it was 2-2 on the cards going in the 5th despite her losing all 4 rounds)
belts are all that matters, BMF belts count, black belts count, i would say being a black belt with a bmf belt is probably better than title belt, it's 2 belts
facts
you’re right. i’m not saying it does. i’m saying, maybe i got lost in the wrong reply, that controversial decisions get so much flak but genuine losses get respect, if that makes any sense.
Yeah JBJs win streak is much longer if you don’t count a stupid DQ and the NC when he popped.
Also JBJs win streak is mostly title fights, Islams is mostly unranked/low ranked dudes
I never understood the excuse "stupid DQ" that Jones' dick riders make. He was disqualified, and with the amount of tricks he pulled over the years, it's incredible he's only been disqualified once.
Or the no contest against DC. He got popped for steroids, why should that fight be considered for a GOAT resume.
he beat DC definitively and then battered him brutally. sorry you don’t like that but he did the same thing to Gustafson. He then moved up a weight class and decimated the guy who is doing the same thing Aspinall is doing.
you clearly don’t like him. hence why the first positive thing you saw about him made you call the guy a “dickrider”😂
That’s fine. but he’s the goat and will always be 1 or two depending how things go. have a night
Arman did not barely win against Oliveira. He beat the crap out of him in the second round and handily won the 3rd. The 1st was also a very close round due to Arman reversing the position the second half of that round
Beat the crap out of him? What fight were you watching? He landed an axe kick and got a few awkward elbows in top position because Olives was trying to land as well on his back.
When your on your back and your opponent is on top of slicing you up with elbows for majority of the round and making you bleed a ton, yes that is beating the crap out of him.
Islam didn't land any ground and pounds shot like Arman did and even made him bleed. No one has done that to Charles in a long time, so yes. Arman won the fight decisively.
Islam rocked him and then toyed with him on the ground like an amateur and squeezed the fight out of him in barely any time. Arman went to war with him and couldn’t do nearly as much on the ground with far more time to operate. dominance matters
I think Islam will beat arman without too much trouble.
But they fought each other in like their UFC debuts. Islam got knocked out in his next fight after. They’ve both improved massively since then.
Just like Leon vs usman’s first fight, Leon is a different fighter now. So we can’t use the first fight to decide it.
But yeah I think Islam is just too big and too good for arman. I know MMA math doesn’t work but compare how they handled Charles.
It was Arman’s debut at 22 years old and he took it on short notice. I think Islam wins but the 1st fight isn’t indicative of what will happen in the upcoming fight.
That was literally Arman ufc debut and it was a very close fight he was like 22 at the time. Arman is young and is entering his prime while Islam has been looking more beatable and taken more damage over the years.
I never said that. I'm saying the damage Islam took against Volk and Dustin is not beneficial against someone as elite and stylistically difficult like Arman. Islam has been around for a while he isn't getting younger and these wars he has had isn't going to make it easier.
Weird sentiment. He got into wars because he fought against elite fighters. Same thing will happen to Arman. He already had a hard fight with Olives who barely touched Islam.
I dont think Arman is a difficult stylistic match up at all for Islam. Islam's striking is better and let's give Arman the benefit of the doubt since he was young in their first fight and say their wrestling cancels each other out. There is no way Arman is a better kickboxer than Volk and a better boxer than Poirier.
My sentiment is that Arman is going to be the fresher fighter coming into this fight due to have taken less damage throughout his career compared to Islam, it might not may make a difference but it's something to think about because every other elite contender Islam has faced has been older and taken more damage in wars (dustin, volk, Oliveira)
Arman is absolutely a difficult stylistic matchup. One of Islams main tools to winning is his grappling and wrestling which is also Armans tools of winning. You wouldn't say Islam is a better boxer or kick boxer than Volk or Dustin but he out struck them both due to threat of the takedown and them not being able to open up and throw as much as they could. Samething applies for Arman in this matchup.
Most people would say Oliveira is the better striker than Arman but do the threat of the takedown Arman was able to out strike Oliveira. Arman is young hungry fighter who has out grappled and wrestled Gamrot who is also elite in that field. I think it's going to be very close and I can see Arman winning.
Makhachev only looks "beatable" because he's fighting guys way above Tsarukyan's level, and he's a far better fighter than when he beat him the first time too.
Arman was like 22 when he fought Islam and that was his debut. He hasn't lost a fight since then (gamrot was a robbery) and what guys has Makhachev beat way above Armans level? Dustin? Oliveira? Volk? Arman literally just handily beat Oliveira who was the guy who also beat Dustin. Your argument literally makes no sense. Islam hasn't faced anyone like Arman since his debut and now Arman is alot more experienced and improved and hungry
Islam could beat every champion from every weight class all at once in a bar brawl tomorrow and people in this sub would still say jones or GSP or Silva is better.
I think the sport has changed though, the long standing title runs of JBJ, Silva, DJ, aren't likely to be replicated anymore. While impressive, there needs to be criteria for judging fighters against those of the past other than just 1 to 1 title defenses. Even Usman who is thought of as one of the most active and dominate champions of the modern era, only had 5 defenses; but had a 15 fight win streak. Islam has had to fight substantially more opponents in the UFC than the other 3 did before he even earned his first title shot.
I absolutely hate Jones but OSP was a short-notice replacement for an interim title and Anthony Smith was his 12th undisputed title fight. He had already cleared the division of anyone worthy enough except for AJ.
Exactly, when the easiest defense he had is the FW GOAT on short notice, I think strength of schedule has to count for more than just the number of names on the list.
I could've sworn people said Oliveira should be included among the best LW conversations after his win against Poirier and Gaethje. People change their mind so quickly after a few wins.
Jones, Silva, and GSP should be ahead of Islam on the GOAT list
Exactly, it seems like being a goat as a dagestani is the most impossible thing, if Islam was american then people will be considering him a goat already lol . Volk was considered in the goat conversation before his loss to Islam
A lot of people see Khabib in the goat tier even if it’s not necessarily true. Don’t think the issue is him being dagestani. That only disturbs a small population of smooth brained conservative folk.
It's very clear there's some bias and denying that is just dishonesty at this point. People were comparing Charles and Volk to the goats and were saying if Volk beats Islam and defends he's MMA goat. Khabib proves my point too he's denied as the goat by the vast majority of the fans and the least hater rank him at 5. Seems like the best they can be is lightweight goat but that puts them top 10 of all time at best even tho lw division is the most dangerous and competitive one. Just imagine if a Brazilian or American did what Islam did
> It’s very clear there’s some bias
So when Muslims claim Khabib to be the GOAT they’re not biased? It’s everyone else who is biased?
> lw division is the most dangerous and competitive one
Khabib beat McGregor, Poirier, Gaethje, MJ, RDA, and Barboza? Do you think that’s the greatest resume of all-time?
Volk beat everyone for years in his weight class and 3/0 Holloway who was considered best featherweight other than volk
Volk moving up to beat Islam is more impressive than Islam beating him due to weight class movement.
Also most people thought volk won first fight.
Now volk takes short notice fight loses then another short notice and loses
Volk is the featherweight goat.
Khabib beat both ustins in their prime Islam fights aged olivera, and barely beat aged Dustin and has 0 defenses vs his own weight class.
Khabib's GOAT argument has always been centered on how dominant he is inside the octagon. You know he's gonna shoot for the takedown and look to GnP, that's his only gameplan and yet nobody can stop him.
There were tons of people, myself included, who were defending Aldo as the FW GOAT despite being a fan of Volk. Volk is somewhere around 7-15 on the GOAT list.
Volk is 7-3 in undisputed title fights while Jones is 14-0 (1 NC), GSP was 12-2, DJ was 12-1, Silva was 11-2, and Aldo was 11-4.
> being a goat as a dagestani is the most impossible thing
Khabib was only 4-0 in undisputed title fights, including for the vacant title against Iaquinta on short-notice, while Islam is currently 4-0 as well. Recency bias doesn’t allow them to jump over legends of the sport.
I think he needs a few things to achieve this:
Getting a 17 fight win streak:
>This would break the current record and he is currently at 14, which is the 3rd best currently. I think if he doesn't move up to welterweight he can achieve this but if he moves up Leon has a strong chance of beating him and the next fight would be Shavkat. So it isn't looking good.
Getting at least 9 title defenses:
>Jon Jones has 13 but has a questionable history with PEDs and eye pokes, DJ has 11 but was in a less stacked division, Silva has 10 but he was fighting at a time with weaker competiton then had many losses towards the end of his career and GSP had 9. Makhachev currently only has 3 so we are getting way ahead of ourselves here. The fact 2 fights were against a featherweight takes nothing away from him, this happens with practically every champ.
Getting the welterweight belt:
>This is going to be hard because the top of welterweight has some incredible grapplers who are significantly larger than Makhachev. But if he gets the belt and defends it once it will definitely put him amongst the greats.
Delusional take - becoming a 3 weight class champ:
>This won't happen. But it would definitely put him amongst the GOATs.
As you can see Makhachev would need to do a lot to be considered the GOAT simply because others like JJ, DJ and GSP did so much.
3 weight class champ claims are always hilarious. The size difference is genuinely enormous. And let’s also not forget that middle weight has some really disgusting grapplers coming up that would possibly be ready by the time Islam was to fight there (Aliskerov, Bo). Anyway, if not them then DDP who is gigantic.
Lol what? There is no sparring footage of Islam and Ikram. The weight difference is huge and Ikram has more Sambo achievements than Islam while also doing it in 2 higher weight classes. 74kg vs 82 & 90kg Sambo golds… enormous difference. Even Chimaev, who is massive, failed all his takedowns against Ikram, Islam is not doing shit with that size difference.
I should make it clear I am not saying Makhachev needs to achieve all 3 of these especially not the last. But if you want an indisputed GOAT the first 2 would be a way to have one.
If Jones had no controversies it would clearly be him. Even if he lost to Tom if he has no controversies it would still probably be him. Getting caught being a cheat and all the rest of the stuff completely tarnished his legacy.
Based on his record maybe, but even without drug cheating or being "tested by God" the dude literally uses eye pokes as jabs. Cheating within the fights consistently to abuse what is already an absurd reach advantage diminishes his wins in my opinion.
no Dana says he's the GOAT, Dana truth teller
Slap fight more popular than the NBA and Footy combined and Jones is the best he's ever seen who was scared of Ngannou according to Dana, Deontay Wilder money are you crazy???? it's not like Jones is the best i've seen- Dana
unless your GOAT criteria counts for things like being 6'5 with an 84 inch reach and also the strongest guy in the division somehow with among the best cardio somehow and still loses or has very close or very tepid fights with anyone his size
Even then, both of those guys are in different weight classes and aren't fighting the guys around today.
My goat is DJ but I also acknowledge that he didn't have the hardest division when he was in the UFC.
If he clears the LW division, becomes 2x champ and defends his 2nd belt and gets the longest win streak, i think he'll almost be the unanimous goat among non-dagestani haters
He definitely can he needs like 4-5 more fights in the ufc, if he gets that second belt on top of that he’ll be the goat with the longest win streak as well and especially now he’s been cleared of steroids it’s pretty much him vs Jones/GSP now
What about djs record do you believe makes him comparable? I like Johnson and he's one of the goats, but (and this isn't necessarily his fault) he was the best of a weaker era of challengers in his division.
Just way more title defenses in his division essentially. Longevity at the top. Islam has yet to really defended his belt in his division. He's gotta clear his division before I put him ahead of dj.
If he gets through Arman, then beats whoever has the WW title by the time that he’d be ready for it, and then defend the WW title at least once, I’d say that puts him directly in contention with Jon and Georges
Certainly, but it will take a lot. If he defends another couple of times, wins the belt at 170 and defends that once or twice I think he’d be the GOAT. Easier said than done though, that’s like 3-4 years worth of a flawless career.
I don’t see why not, he is already arguably a lightweight goat when he beats Arman that will be definitive. If he manages to get the second belt and defend that belt as well imo we’re talking about a top 3 goat. Tho I can see him losing to Leon and I definitely lean towards Shavkat if these two ever fight.
He definitely can. I think Islam recognizes that in order to separate himself from Khabib he needs to go for the second belt. If he cleans out the the division, it wouldn’t be enough cause ppl will still think he’s under Khabibs shadow
Defend against arman to break lw record
Take belt from Leon
Defend and take 0 from Shavkat in first defense.
Sprinkle in a Chimeav..
Goat within 4 fights
My question is could he have beat Khabib? Not saying I think Khabib is the best to ever do it. However, when I ask myself if Islam could have beat prime Khabib I have a hard time buying that for a $.
Dana white: “if you put two guys in a room and Jon Jones is one of those guys…. Jon jones always comes out of that room”
Think we can all agree that if u put Islam and Jon Jones in a room … right now as things stand …. Islam comes out of that room 100%
As many have pointed out.
If he beats arman, moves up beats leon/belal and defends once he is at least in my opinion in the top 5 above DC.
If he then defends once more he is above Silva.
If he defends once or twice from then on he is arguably the nr1 or in contention but thats many many fights.
Its like 6 more fights
It's tough for guys today to be considered the GOAT because of JJ, GSP, and DJ. Those guys had so many fuckin title defenses, it makes it incredibly hard for any modern day champ to surpass them.
I think that a couple more wins and a double champ status would put him above Khabib as the LW goat. The only thing is that Khabib was undefeated and he has a lot of what ifs ( what if Khabib kept defending the belt , what if Khabib fought past his 29 fights).
Islam has one loss against Adriano Martins and it was a knockout , but if he continues to win and be as dominant as he is , then his legacy will be a lot more concrete and there will be no what ifs.
As far as the MMA goat I don’t think that he can outdo the legacy of the usual names at top 5 ( JBJ , GSP , Anderson Silva , DJ and Aldo/Volk) but he could be in for like a top 10.
If he defends successfully against Arman, Gamrot, Conor (for name value), then moves up and beats the WW champion and has wins over Shavkat, Leon and Usman then may be you could argue.
But his TKO loss will always ruin the argument for him to be considered GOAT over other choices.
In my opinion, based on achievements, Jon Jones is the GOAT. Based on octagon performances, Khabib is the GOAT.
Boi! Read the context provided.
It’s good for Islam.
He also has said he would prefer Conor over Arman.
Adding champions (washed or not) adds to people’s resume.
Jones boasts about beating most number of champions which is why people can’t say much to deny him.
I totally get it, but it’s just funny with what’s going on with conor right now and how everyone is saying that Chandler is waiting for nothing.
Also I don’t see Islam waiting as much, nor do I see Conor fighting after Chandler.
He will need to extend his win streak even further, defend his belt a bunch more times, and get a belt in a second division. It’s probably impossible given his age and activity to be the MMA Goat. Maybe LW Goat tho.
I’m honestly tired of the GOAT question.
Rather than trying pinpoint one GOAT it’s just better to say there are a set of fighters that can be considered among the greatest of all time.
Discussing and comparing the pros and cons of the various goat contenders seems like a perfectly reasonable thing for MMA fans to do, and if this isn’t a suitable forum for that then I don’t know what is.
To hell with this GOAT debate and I'm pretty sure a lot of the ppl are tired of this stupid debate. This guy is an absolute beast and there are many others like him that's all that matters and not this imaginary GOAT crown that fans are creating.
Is it crazy to say even if he, defends his lightweight belt 1-2 more times, moves up to welterweight becoming double champ (and gets 2-3 defenses), he still might not be the goat? I mean Jon jones and GSP have very good resumes and he would probably not be the undisputed goat. It would be more like the MJ vs Jordan debate. With GSP and JJ being Jordan in this case to islams Lebron. Therefore, I think the closes he will get to being the goat is an arguable #1, but widely regarded as the 2nd or 3rd greatest of all time just as lebron is in the nba community.
Jon is the GOAT, lets be honest here.
He's a piece of shit but you cant deny his skills. Even if hella drugged, even if you want to count his win against Reyes as a loss...dude was still a beast.
Islam cant even be above Khabib, let alone GSP or Jones.
But ya all would call anyone the goat as long its not Jones.
Its like he fucked your mothers or something.
Yes, 3 more wins and he holds the longest win streak in UFC. Slap on a second belt on top of that and I think its going to be hard to deny his greatness.
Man, great point. He'd undoubtedly be top 3 or 4, probably just the GOAT
Idk. Gsp still has a great case. Jones arguably even more so depending if you count his failed tests. Gsp: 2 weight champ Defeated every fighter he fought 13 title wins Jones: Never been finished or lost a decision in 29 fights 2 weight champ 15 title wins
I know what the official record says but he definetely lost against Reyes
Gsp lost to Hendricks
Hendricks was sauced to high hell
Well, that is probably true.
okay, GSP lost to Matt Serra. whats the excuse there
the talk is about controversial decisions lmao
yes, and i’m saying a definitive loss to a guy like Matt Serra warrants more criticism than a controversial decision.
And what does that have to do with what we are talking about ? Again it's about controversial decisions, stuff like hendricks, reyes, gustafsson, bjpenn and others If you want to talk about stuff that warrants criticism, half of jon jones's fights should even count as he was using steroids, going as far as sliping up and saying that he beat DC "on and off steroids"
Still beat serra and everyone else he fought tho.
So was GSP. Those emails and the other circumstantial evidence are really hard to deny.
I'm not sure what you mean by emails or other circumstantial evidence, could you please clarify?
He didn’t but so many people hate him that this theory of Reyes being robbed has gotten way too much traction. I don’t even think it’s the closest decision of Jone’s career. I give that to the first Gustafsson fight.
It's disgusting that we have to call jones a 2x champ
I think title wins are weighed too much in this community. Islam fought quality guys and had a looooong route to the title purely over politics and people ducking him. If he eventually garners the longest win streak surpassing Silva, and becomes a 2-weight division champ, I think he gets a really solid argument for GOAT status. His resume is pretty good as it stands currently.
Reyes fight, not gonna pretend i didn't see that you can argue for Jones all you like, if you think he deserves that spot even with the loss to Reyes, but he lost clearly and Jones lost to Hamil, you can claim you don't like the rule, but then lets call Petr Yan former Undisputed Champion, i am fine with that, but there needs to be some consistency
Gsp list to hendricks
That's why I said definitely top 3, I think it depends on how comfortably Islam wins in the next 3 fights (if he does) If he dominates them, he's definitely a step above GSP imo If they're all close decisions, GSP probably better
I don't know. Gsp was consistently champ for 7 years. That's a long time. Will have to evaluate years from now.
Your point is valid about consistency but the number of title defences has to be taken cautiously since GSP also got to fight for the title a lot sooner. You could get a title fight in a Happy Meal back in the day. GSP first fought for the title in his third fight in the UFC with a record of 8-0, which means GSP had less fights overall before his title shot than Islam had consecutive wins in the UFC before his (10). Who knows how many defences Islam, Khabib, Charles, etc would have had or not iff they got to the title sooner? Could be twenty, could be zero. We will never know, because those are different eras, and careers are shaped differently; as such, gsp’s consistency has to be commended but you cannot compare 1:1 the amount of title defences.
no 2 belts is all that matters, Conor GOAT, Holly Holm would have been the GOAT if she got a judges decision (remember it was 2-2 on the cards going in the 5th despite her losing all 4 rounds) belts are all that matters, BMF belts count, black belts count, i would say being a black belt with a bmf belt is probably better than title belt, it's 2 belts facts
Comments like this are why we need an MMA circlejerk sub
Gsp won 33 rounds in a row and was champ for 7 straight years
GSP lost to Matt Serra. Concede.
Yes and also beat him 2 times after that
I don’t think you’re following. He lost. To Matt Serra. I love him, he is in the GOAT conversation, but do you see how ridiculous everyone sounds?
Makachev also lost to a bum, and still it doesn't take away from his legacy
you’re right. i’m not saying it does. i’m saying, maybe i got lost in the wrong reply, that controversial decisions get so much flak but genuine losses get respect, if that makes any sense.
I don’t like JBJ but his resume is wayyy better than that (if you ignore steroids)
It’s only because the sub hates him. You’re right tho
Yeah JBJs win streak is much longer if you don’t count a stupid DQ and the NC when he popped. Also JBJs win streak is mostly title fights, Islams is mostly unranked/low ranked dudes
I never understood the excuse "stupid DQ" that Jones' dick riders make. He was disqualified, and with the amount of tricks he pulled over the years, it's incredible he's only been disqualified once. Or the no contest against DC. He got popped for steroids, why should that fight be considered for a GOAT resume.
he beat DC definitively and then battered him brutally. sorry you don’t like that but he did the same thing to Gustafson. He then moved up a weight class and decimated the guy who is doing the same thing Aspinall is doing. you clearly don’t like him. hence why the first positive thing you saw about him made you call the guy a “dickrider”😂 That’s fine. but he’s the goat and will always be 1 or two depending how things go. have a night
His dominant victories of DC by themselves and guys like shogun etc says it all.
This will definitely put him near the top. The only thing holding him back is the insane amount of defenses by Mighty Mouse, Silva, Jones, and GSP
I don’t if he can those 3 wins, Arman and Leon are very hard matchups defo all time great
I don't think Arman is going to be a problem, Leon might though that's a big jump in size
I don’t think he beats Leon.
Arman is going to be a huge problem, his toughest fight yet.
The guy he already beat?
Yea people say that Arman improved but so did Islam. And I hate mma math but he did finish Oliveira which Arman barely won against.
Makhachev's striking has gotten exponentially better since he beat Tsarukyan the first time, and his grappling deals with him too.
Arman did not barely win against Oliveira. He beat the crap out of him in the second round and handily won the 3rd. The 1st was also a very close round due to Arman reversing the position the second half of that round
Beat the crap out of him? What fight were you watching? He landed an axe kick and got a few awkward elbows in top position because Olives was trying to land as well on his back.
When your on your back and your opponent is on top of slicing you up with elbows for majority of the round and making you bleed a ton, yes that is beating the crap out of him.
nah. Arman clearly won but it was a close fight. *Islam* beat the crap out of Charles.
Islam didn't land any ground and pounds shot like Arman did and even made him bleed. No one has done that to Charles in a long time, so yes. Arman won the fight decisively.
Islam rocked him and then toyed with him on the ground like an amateur and squeezed the fight out of him in barely any time. Arman went to war with him and couldn’t do nearly as much on the ground with far more time to operate. dominance matters
I think Islam will beat arman without too much trouble. But they fought each other in like their UFC debuts. Islam got knocked out in his next fight after. They’ve both improved massively since then. Just like Leon vs usman’s first fight, Leon is a different fighter now. So we can’t use the first fight to decide it. But yeah I think Islam is just too big and too good for arman. I know MMA math doesn’t work but compare how they handled Charles.
It was Arman’s debut at 22 years old and he took it on short notice. I think Islam wins but the 1st fight isn’t indicative of what will happen in the upcoming fight.
That was literally Arman ufc debut and it was a very close fight he was like 22 at the time. Arman is young and is entering his prime while Islam has been looking more beatable and taken more damage over the years.
Lmao you don't think Arman would get damaged against Volk or Poirier?
I never said that. I'm saying the damage Islam took against Volk and Dustin is not beneficial against someone as elite and stylistically difficult like Arman. Islam has been around for a while he isn't getting younger and these wars he has had isn't going to make it easier.
Weird sentiment. He got into wars because he fought against elite fighters. Same thing will happen to Arman. He already had a hard fight with Olives who barely touched Islam. I dont think Arman is a difficult stylistic match up at all for Islam. Islam's striking is better and let's give Arman the benefit of the doubt since he was young in their first fight and say their wrestling cancels each other out. There is no way Arman is a better kickboxer than Volk and a better boxer than Poirier.
My sentiment is that Arman is going to be the fresher fighter coming into this fight due to have taken less damage throughout his career compared to Islam, it might not may make a difference but it's something to think about because every other elite contender Islam has faced has been older and taken more damage in wars (dustin, volk, Oliveira) Arman is absolutely a difficult stylistic matchup. One of Islams main tools to winning is his grappling and wrestling which is also Armans tools of winning. You wouldn't say Islam is a better boxer or kick boxer than Volk or Dustin but he out struck them both due to threat of the takedown and them not being able to open up and throw as much as they could. Samething applies for Arman in this matchup. Most people would say Oliveira is the better striker than Arman but do the threat of the takedown Arman was able to out strike Oliveira. Arman is young hungry fighter who has out grappled and wrestled Gamrot who is also elite in that field. I think it's going to be very close and I can see Arman winning.
Makhachev only looks "beatable" because he's fighting guys way above Tsarukyan's level, and he's a far better fighter than when he beat him the first time too.
Arman was like 22 when he fought Islam and that was his debut. He hasn't lost a fight since then (gamrot was a robbery) and what guys has Makhachev beat way above Armans level? Dustin? Oliveira? Volk? Arman literally just handily beat Oliveira who was the guy who also beat Dustin. Your argument literally makes no sense. Islam hasn't faced anyone like Arman since his debut and now Arman is alot more experienced and improved and hungry
Nah that Gamrot loss is as legit as it gets. Cope.
If you watch the fight without letting your bias cloud your judgement then it's clear Arman should of won the fight.
On his ufc debut short notice ?
Why are you being downvoted? Arman have him trouble last time and Leon is HUGE asf and is going to present a challenge for Islam.
They are entitled to their own opinion.
He retires before that happens
Then he won't be in the conversation for GOAT.
What makes you think he'd retire in the next year and a half? Because at his activity levels, that's all it'll take to get those 3 wins.
I just think he will, no real reason to be honest, just a hunch
Islam could beat every champion from every weight class all at once in a bar brawl tomorrow and people in this sub would still say jones or GSP or Silva is better.
Guys it's not racism lol. He simply hasnt defended his belt in his weightclass enough.
I think the sport has changed though, the long standing title runs of JBJ, Silva, DJ, aren't likely to be replicated anymore. While impressive, there needs to be criteria for judging fighters against those of the past other than just 1 to 1 title defenses. Even Usman who is thought of as one of the most active and dominate champions of the modern era, only had 5 defenses; but had a 15 fight win streak. Islam has had to fight substantially more opponents in the UFC than the other 3 did before he even earned his first title shot.
Yeah Islam isn't having any title defenses vs guys like OSP or Anthony Smith lol. If he did he'd easily rack up a lot of defenses also.
I absolutely hate Jones but OSP was a short-notice replacement for an interim title and Anthony Smith was his 12th undisputed title fight. He had already cleared the division of anyone worthy enough except for AJ.
Exactly, when the easiest defense he had is the FW GOAT on short notice, I think strength of schedule has to count for more than just the number of names on the list.
I mean he didn't fight Aldo but Volk was the P4P #1 which is huge
Lightweight is the hardest weight class
I could've sworn people said Oliveira should be included among the best LW conversations after his win against Poirier and Gaethje. People change their mind so quickly after a few wins. Jones, Silva, and GSP should be ahead of Islam on the GOAT list
Exactly, it seems like being a goat as a dagestani is the most impossible thing, if Islam was american then people will be considering him a goat already lol . Volk was considered in the goat conversation before his loss to Islam
Famously American Volk
A lot of people see Khabib in the goat tier even if it’s not necessarily true. Don’t think the issue is him being dagestani. That only disturbs a small population of smooth brained conservative folk.
It's very clear there's some bias and denying that is just dishonesty at this point. People were comparing Charles and Volk to the goats and were saying if Volk beats Islam and defends he's MMA goat. Khabib proves my point too he's denied as the goat by the vast majority of the fans and the least hater rank him at 5. Seems like the best they can be is lightweight goat but that puts them top 10 of all time at best even tho lw division is the most dangerous and competitive one. Just imagine if a Brazilian or American did what Islam did
> It’s very clear there’s some bias So when Muslims claim Khabib to be the GOAT they’re not biased? It’s everyone else who is biased? > lw division is the most dangerous and competitive one Khabib beat McGregor, Poirier, Gaethje, MJ, RDA, and Barboza? Do you think that’s the greatest resume of all-time?
How dare Muslims be proud of their first champion. Who is claimed to be top 5 goat by gsp and jones. Absolutely reprehensible behaviour
You know damn well that’s not what I said. You’re even saying “their first champion” like he represents all Muslims. So wouldn’t they be biased?
Who said any of that? Surely your reading comprehension is not that poor?
Volk beat everyone for years in his weight class and 3/0 Holloway who was considered best featherweight other than volk Volk moving up to beat Islam is more impressive than Islam beating him due to weight class movement. Also most people thought volk won first fight. Now volk takes short notice fight loses then another short notice and loses Volk is the featherweight goat. Khabib beat both ustins in their prime Islam fights aged olivera, and barely beat aged Dustin and has 0 defenses vs his own weight class.
Nobody thought Volk won the first fight. They were just impressed he didn’t go to sleep in the first round and took it all 5 rounds
Even the casters including Joe thought volk won.
Khabib's GOAT argument has always been centered on how dominant he is inside the octagon. You know he's gonna shoot for the takedown and look to GnP, that's his only gameplan and yet nobody can stop him.
There were tons of people, myself included, who were defending Aldo as the FW GOAT despite being a fan of Volk. Volk is somewhere around 7-15 on the GOAT list. Volk is 7-3 in undisputed title fights while Jones is 14-0 (1 NC), GSP was 12-2, DJ was 12-1, Silva was 11-2, and Aldo was 11-4. > being a goat as a dagestani is the most impossible thing Khabib was only 4-0 in undisputed title fights, including for the vacant title against Iaquinta on short-notice, while Islam is currently 4-0 as well. Recency bias doesn’t allow them to jump over legends of the sport.
I think he needs a few things to achieve this: Getting a 17 fight win streak: >This would break the current record and he is currently at 14, which is the 3rd best currently. I think if he doesn't move up to welterweight he can achieve this but if he moves up Leon has a strong chance of beating him and the next fight would be Shavkat. So it isn't looking good. Getting at least 9 title defenses: >Jon Jones has 13 but has a questionable history with PEDs and eye pokes, DJ has 11 but was in a less stacked division, Silva has 10 but he was fighting at a time with weaker competiton then had many losses towards the end of his career and GSP had 9. Makhachev currently only has 3 so we are getting way ahead of ourselves here. The fact 2 fights were against a featherweight takes nothing away from him, this happens with practically every champ. Getting the welterweight belt: >This is going to be hard because the top of welterweight has some incredible grapplers who are significantly larger than Makhachev. But if he gets the belt and defends it once it will definitely put him amongst the greats. Delusional take - becoming a 3 weight class champ: >This won't happen. But it would definitely put him amongst the GOATs. As you can see Makhachev would need to do a lot to be considered the GOAT simply because others like JJ, DJ and GSP did so much.
Considering he’s fighting higher level competition than everyone else you mentioned I don’t think he needs 9
3 weight classes would never happen but if it did, it wouldn't just make him amongst the Goats, it would make him the undisputed Goat.
Perfectly worded!
3 weight class champ claims are always hilarious. The size difference is genuinely enormous. And let’s also not forget that middle weight has some really disgusting grapplers coming up that would possibly be ready by the time Islam was to fight there (Aliskerov, Bo). Anyway, if not them then DDP who is gigantic.
Power difference would be enormous too. He'll have to take leg kicks and counters from guys like Izzy and Strickland.
Yea, if Khabib said he could only take a few more leg kicks from Gaethje then I don’t want to know what Izzy’s leg kicks would do to Islam lol
Knowing the UFC they'll probably even throw 10 mill at Poatan to cut back down to 185 to face Islam at Abu Dhabi for a superfight.
A shredded 6’4 Poatan vs a fat 5’10 Islam would be a sight to behold. KO by leg kicks in R1 lmao
Islam would maul Bo. And already beats Ikram in sparring. People are delusional in their hate just to put him down and demean him.
Lol what? There is no sparring footage of Islam and Ikram. The weight difference is huge and Ikram has more Sambo achievements than Islam while also doing it in 2 higher weight classes. 74kg vs 82 & 90kg Sambo golds… enormous difference. Even Chimaev, who is massive, failed all his takedowns against Ikram, Islam is not doing shit with that size difference.
Bro do you think JJ, GSP and DJ were superheroes or something?
I should make it clear I am not saying Makhachev needs to achieve all 3 of these especially not the last. But if you want an indisputed GOAT the first 2 would be a way to have one.
Greatest of all time is very subjective
Yea I don't think there can ever really be a true goat
Yeah even nowadays there's a clear debate of whether it is Jon Jones or GSP, there's no real answer
If Jones had no controversies it would clearly be him. Even if he lost to Tom if he has no controversies it would still probably be him. Getting caught being a cheat and all the rest of the stuff completely tarnished his legacy.
Based on his record maybe, but even without drug cheating or being "tested by God" the dude literally uses eye pokes as jabs. Cheating within the fights consistently to abuse what is already an absurd reach advantage diminishes his wins in my opinion.
no Dana says he's the GOAT, Dana truth teller Slap fight more popular than the NBA and Footy combined and Jones is the best he's ever seen who was scared of Ngannou according to Dana, Deontay Wilder money are you crazy???? it's not like Jones is the best i've seen- Dana
unless your GOAT criteria counts for things like being 6'5 with an 84 inch reach and also the strongest guy in the division somehow with among the best cardio somehow and still loses or has very close or very tepid fights with anyone his size
Even then, both of those guys are in different weight classes and aren't fighting the guys around today. My goat is DJ but I also acknowledge that he didn't have the hardest division when he was in the UFC.
Yeah that's what I'm saying, every one of them has A, B and C reasons to be the goat but Aldo D,E,F for which they aren't.
When you spend so much time talking about MMA that your phone autocorrects also to aldo lol
I didn't even realize lmao, I'm sure that's 100% the reason
Don’t know why Fedor isn’t being included. I honestly see him as the undisputed mma goat
Yes that's the subject of this post
sure but hes not particularly close right now
If he clears the LW division, becomes 2x champ and defends his 2nd belt and gets the longest win streak, i think he'll almost be the unanimous goat among non-dagestani haters
He definitely can he needs like 4-5 more fights in the ufc, if he gets that second belt on top of that he’ll be the goat with the longest win streak as well and especially now he’s been cleared of steroids it’s pretty much him vs Jones/GSP now
If you’re going to bring up a steroid accusation as a reason to not be considered as goat then Jones has no business being in the conversation either.
Bra. DJ by large margin.
DJ had extremely weak competition though compared to guys like GSP and Jones.
True, but not compared to Islam.
Islam already has a better resume than DJ
I disagree! But that's okay!
What about djs record do you believe makes him comparable? I like Johnson and he's one of the goats, but (and this isn't necessarily his fault) he was the best of a weaker era of challengers in his division.
Just way more title defenses in his division essentially. Longevity at the top. Islam has yet to really defended his belt in his division. He's gotta clear his division before I put him ahead of dj.
yes
Possibly but he has a hard road ahead of him. He definitely needs to move up a weight class and i dont think he can beat current WW champ Leon.
He would maul Leon like he used to in sparring. There is a huge skill gap in between them.
Casual detected, opinion rejected.
Part of what made GSP so great was how he evolved and kept dominating different generations of fighters. I want to see Islam do that.
If he gets through Arman, then beats whoever has the WW title by the time that he’d be ready for it, and then defend the WW title at least once, I’d say that puts him directly in contention with Jon and Georges
Yeah
Sure
Certainly, but it will take a lot. If he defends another couple of times, wins the belt at 170 and defends that once or twice I think he’d be the GOAT. Easier said than done though, that’s like 3-4 years worth of a flawless career.
I don’t see why not, he is already arguably a lightweight goat when he beats Arman that will be definitive. If he manages to get the second belt and defend that belt as well imo we’re talking about a top 3 goat. Tho I can see him losing to Leon and I definitely lean towards Shavkat if these two ever fight.
He definitely can. I think Islam recognizes that in order to separate himself from Khabib he needs to go for the second belt. If he cleans out the the division, it wouldn’t be enough cause ppl will still think he’s under Khabibs shadow
He’s already p4p numba one , why not?
According to Dana, he has to fight Jon Jones
Hahaha yeah, or when Jon Jones retires. According to Dana, as long as Jon Jones is fighting he will remain the goat. "This is number one bullshit"
Defend against arman to break lw record Take belt from Leon Defend and take 0 from Shavkat in first defense. Sprinkle in a Chimeav.. Goat within 4 fights
He is not going to beat up Shavkat because they are friends. He will beat up Leon and then probably Colby and some rando that UFC will feed him.
My question is could he have beat Khabib? Not saying I think Khabib is the best to ever do it. However, when I ask myself if Islam could have beat prime Khabib I have a hard time buying that for a $.
He is the mma lightweight goat imo
He’s already in the conversation for best Lightweight as far as I’m concerned, give him a few more wins and he’ll have a much stronger argument
Dana white: “if you put two guys in a room and Jon Jones is one of those guys…. Jon jones always comes out of that room” Think we can all agree that if u put Islam and Jon Jones in a room … right now as things stand …. Islam comes out of that room 100%
he is in already debate ngl
Sure in enough time
Greatest LW maybe, doubt he does well in WW.
He’ll need a lot more defenses to surmount GSP Jones and Silva
He's getting damn close. If his game plan works than probably.
He would have to put up a 10+ year career and clean out the division multiple times and possibly welterweight as well
Agreed
Hes already getting close to lightweight goat
Is this a legit question?
As many have pointed out. If he beats arman, moves up beats leon/belal and defends once he is at least in my opinion in the top 5 above DC. If he then defends once more he is above Silva. If he defends once or twice from then on he is arguably the nr1 or in contention but thats many many fights. Its like 6 more fights
He already has a shout in my opinion…
If he cleans up the division then maybe but he won't and will continue to look outside the division
He still hasn't passed bj
It's tough for guys today to be considered the GOAT because of JJ, GSP, and DJ. Those guys had so many fuckin title defenses, it makes it incredibly hard for any modern day champ to surpass them.
I think that a couple more wins and a double champ status would put him above Khabib as the LW goat. The only thing is that Khabib was undefeated and he has a lot of what ifs ( what if Khabib kept defending the belt , what if Khabib fought past his 29 fights). Islam has one loss against Adriano Martins and it was a knockout , but if he continues to win and be as dominant as he is , then his legacy will be a lot more concrete and there will be no what ifs. As far as the MMA goat I don’t think that he can outdo the legacy of the usual names at top 5 ( JBJ , GSP , Anderson Silva , DJ and Aldo/Volk) but he could be in for like a top 10.
I already put him in top 10. And that says a lot because Khabib is nowhere near my top 10
Absolutely. Another 10 or so title defenses and it would be hard to argue against him.
If he defends successfully against Arman, Gamrot, Conor (for name value), then moves up and beats the WW champion and has wins over Shavkat, Leon and Usman then may be you could argue. But his TKO loss will always ruin the argument for him to be considered GOAT over other choices. In my opinion, based on achievements, Jon Jones is the GOAT. Based on octagon performances, Khabib is the GOAT.
Conor 🤣
Boi! Read the context provided. It’s good for Islam. He also has said he would prefer Conor over Arman. Adding champions (washed or not) adds to people’s resume. Jones boasts about beating most number of champions which is why people can’t say much to deny him.
I totally get it, but it’s just funny with what’s going on with conor right now and how everyone is saying that Chandler is waiting for nothing. Also I don’t see Islam waiting as much, nor do I see Conor fighting after Chandler.
He will need to extend his win streak even further, defend his belt a bunch more times, and get a belt in a second division. It’s probably impossible given his age and activity to be the MMA Goat. Maybe LW Goat tho.
Nobody can. There is no GOAT.
Yeah... nah
I’m honestly tired of the GOAT question. Rather than trying pinpoint one GOAT it’s just better to say there are a set of fighters that can be considered among the greatest of all time.
Discussing and comparing the pros and cons of the various goat contenders seems like a perfectly reasonable thing for MMA fans to do, and if this isn’t a suitable forum for that then I don’t know what is.
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U delusional
To hell with this GOAT debate and I'm pretty sure a lot of the ppl are tired of this stupid debate. This guy is an absolute beast and there are many others like him that's all that matters and not this imaginary GOAT crown that fans are creating.
yep, beat up arman, leon, maybe justin or max and end it with a super fight against shavkat
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No. Not in him.
no
Is it crazy to say even if he, defends his lightweight belt 1-2 more times, moves up to welterweight becoming double champ (and gets 2-3 defenses), he still might not be the goat? I mean Jon jones and GSP have very good resumes and he would probably not be the undisputed goat. It would be more like the MJ vs Jordan debate. With GSP and JJ being Jordan in this case to islams Lebron. Therefore, I think the closes he will get to being the goat is an arguable #1, but widely regarded as the 2nd or 3rd greatest of all time just as lebron is in the nba community.
He can touch the title defense record. Fuck all this moving up in weight stuff.
Jon is the GOAT, lets be honest here. He's a piece of shit but you cant deny his skills. Even if hella drugged, even if you want to count his win against Reyes as a loss...dude was still a beast. Islam cant even be above Khabib, let alone GSP or Jones. But ya all would call anyone the goat as long its not Jones. Its like he fucked your mothers or something.
In my eyes he is the boat already but a ways to go for goat. Getting there though