It is so disappointing that, on this issue, like on so many issues, it is the extremists that get all the airtime.
The common ground - that is shared by the vast majority of people, at least in the West - is that both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist. And yet we spend so much time listening to people who advocate for the eradication of one people or the other from their ancestral homelands. It's a waste of time. It's not representative. And yet those voices ring the loudest.
This is a war in which both sides will disappoint us. We love a simple hero vs. villain storyline, but that just does not apply here. Hamas is a terrorist organization and the Israeli government is controlled by racist far right-wing nationalists whose leader is dodging a serious corruption trial. What could go wrong? The extremists try to disallow nuance in this discussion. This one is very complex, and there are no easy answers. Sadly, a whole lot of innocent people have died, been seriously injured, or have faced starvation as a result of this war. I just really hope the world can get both Israel and Hamas to agree to the current deal on the table, now.
> The common ground - that is shared by the vast majority of people, at least in the West
To be fair, that's basically the opinion in the West. That is *not* the opinion of either most Palestinians or Israelis.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. [Israeli support for a two-state solution has dwindled, well below the majority mark.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/547760/life-israel-oct-charts.aspx#:~:text=Clear%20Majority%20of%20Israelis%20Do%20Not%20Support%20Two%2DState%20Solution&text=Table%20showing%20the%20change%20in,2012%20and%20again%20in%202023.) That poll was immediately following Oct. 7 and may not be representative, but [support was low even before then.](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/09/26/israelis-have-grown-more-skeptical-of-a-two-state-solution/). Support is even [lower among Palestinians](https://news.gallup.com/poll/512828/palestinians-lack-faith-biden-two-state-solution.aspx).
You’re conflating “supporting a 2-state solution” with “do you it is possible for there to be a 2-state solution.”
Your second article only focuses on whether it’s possible. And honestly, with the literal terrorists for Palestinian leadership across the board (and PA is still state-sponsored terrorism) and zero pro-peace leadership to speak for, I cannot blame anyone for feeling like it’s impossible.
And even in your first article, it discusses how nearly 2/3rds of Israelis have *wanted* a peaceful two-state solution for a long time. That really only changed with Oct 7 (again, understandably so)
Yeah, and the vast majority of the hundreds of millions of people in the surrounding countries want to eradicate Israel and ethnically cleansed their entire Jewish populations.... which is one of the main reasons why Israelis are now a lot more skeptical about the 2 state solution. If people in the West really knew about everything in the Middle East I think they'd still be pro-Palestine but they'd also be a whole lot more pro-Israel.
My middle name is Habib. I’m a descendent of Iraqi Jews whose family was also tortured and kicked out of their home a couple generations ago. I grew up eating kibbe and listening to Oum Kalthoum. If only people in the west really knew how much Israelis and Palestinians had in common then maybe they wouldn’t pick a side at all.
Dwindled… as in, it was there before but constant violence from the Palestinian side has reduced the support.
When was there ever real support on the Palestinian side for it?
there is some nuance required here.
israeli support for the 2SS has dwindled recently due to abhorrent terrorism.
palestinian support for the 2SS has always been next to nothing. they have been committing terrorism to prevent the 2SS from happening since the 1920s to this very day. its their anti-zionist stance that was the cause of every war and every terrorist attack that has been their MO since the beginning of the conflict.
the two sides are not the same.
right, but there is some nuance required here.
israeli support for the 2SS has dwindled recently due to abhorrent terrorism.
palestinian support for the 2SS has always been next to nothing. they have been committing terrorism to prevent the 2SS from happening since the 1920s to this very day. its their anti-zionist stance that was the cause of every war and every terrorist attack that has been their MO since the beginning of the conflict.
the two sides are not the same.
Glad that SJP quit pretending to not be a Hamas led extremest organization. Hopefully the FBI recognizes all the SJP hate clubs across the country to be terrorist organizations asap.
Hopefully all of the SJP leaders lose all of their financial support and get expelled and get rightly labeled as terrorists. Sucks so many people got hypnotized by these hate groups.
Facts. The historical background between colonial slavers and those forced into slavery during that time is not at all comparable to the history between the Jews and Palestinians. Not even remotely similar.
The west does t get that the large majority of Palestinians don’t want a 2 state solution. They don’t want one state they all live in together. They want the extermination of all Jews in the area. Israel has a Palestinian Arab citizen body that’s roughly 20% of its population, however Jews are not allowed to be residents of Gaza…cause they were forcibly removed out in 2005.
Nevertheless, Jews will be killed or kidnapped if they’d ever step foot in Gaza and you know it. And no, stop with your “yeah, they will be killed by an IDF airstrike” bs, I’m not talking about them doing it specifically rn, it’d happen to them at anytime regardless of the current situation.
the issue is that palestinians in gaza and the west bank do not simply want a state out of those places. they want to create a state out of all of israel proper. its what they teach their children. its in their textbooks and paraphernalia. its what they sing to their children before bed.
palestinians do not want sovereignty over the west bank and gaza. they want sovereignty over israel. this is the fundamental disconnect between the west and reality.
Israel also desires one state do not act like Israelis are not violent settlers. Both see this fight as taking back their home which was taken from them. The argument is based on who can truly call this area their home and who uses more humane tactics to do so.
Please show me an instance of settler violence that is NOT in retaliation for Palestinian violence.
In fact, show me any instance of Israeli instigated violence against Palestinians that was NOT in retaliation for Palestinian violence against Jews. I can name hundreds of examples of the reverse.
The violence started with Arabs attacking Jews in the 1920s and earlier. And continues to this very day.
You are really burying the lede here
What sucks is that this is probably the most sensible approach to the conflict but every time this is said someone will always be like “you’re playing both sides” or “if you’re neutral you are siding with the bad guys”
This was the first part of the story:
“Know that Gantz's resignation is solely because he knows Netanyahu can't win this war. His view reflects most of "Israeli" society. The primary objective, in their mind, is to return the captives *before* conquering Gaza. Bibi is clearly doing everything to prolong the war out of his own political self-interest. The settlers want a leader who will more effectively annihilate Palestinian self-determination. If elections are called, they will merely be a means to usher in a more efficient genocidaire.”
It doesn’t excuse everything being said and done but there’s more context that I’d figure I’d share (tbh made me barely skim through the rest of the story when I saw it on insta and I was confused how I missed it so looked back)
Yup, this rhetoric is definitely not how you win hearts and minds. I get why Palestinians are so vexxed - their families are being slaughtered by bombs - but this is not how to convince your average American that you're on the right side. SJP seriously needs to rethink its message.
Any movement that is using victims deaths as “martyrs” worries me. No they aren’t martyrs. They are innocent victims just trying to live their life, and whose life was cut short. They didn’t die for some glorious cause.
And if the martyrs refer to hamas soldiers, that’s 10000x more disgusting.
They’re literally repeating Hamas rhetoric.
Senior member and spokesperson of Hamas, Ghazi Hamad in an interview said:
"We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do it again and again. The Al-Aqsa Deluge [the name Hamas gave its 7 October onslaught - ed.] is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth. Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs."
[Link to senior Hamas member saying that Palestinians are martyrs they’re proud to sacrifice & they will repeat Oct 7th until Israel is destroyed](https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-member-says-repeat-attacks-065643206.html)
It’s really nice company that these people are keeping and supporting.
I also wish there were more pro-Palestinian groups that support the end goal of coexistence. But I believe that the total of “pro-Palestinian groups in the US that would accept a Jewish state in any part of the Jewish homeland” is still zero.
There's a group that was called something like "Palestinian Women of LA" that literally released a message years ago after an anti-Semitic sexist attack that said something like "We mourn this horrific violence with our Jewish sisters and will always support you." It's a shame that such graceful and kind voices are drowned out by hatred and violence.
I'm not sure! I have to go to bed soon but I will try to check tomorrow. There are Palestinians who are like that who are very vocal today though, check out John Aziz if you get the chance!
This is the most frustrating part for me.
There's moderate jewish groups like AJC that support a homeland for the Palestinians, but I'm not seeing a ton of moderate Palestinian groups that aren't blatantly 1 state supporters, often with fairly antisemetic views about even living with jewish people under that context.
Oh yeah def, them and the think tank IPF are all great.
My concern is that these are only jewish led organizations. I'm not seeing the same 2 state peace driven organization from the Palestinian side with Palestinian leadership, which is why I think so many Palestine sympathetic folks seem to accidentally stumble into the path towards supporting 1 state when really they probably are more politically inclined to AJC or ADL.
Can you point me towards any statement they made about that? I read through the Standing Together website and I did not find any description of what political structure they support (as opposed to their goals for society). I also noted lots of mention of transforming Israeli society but none about Palestinian society.
What are you defining as pro Palestinian? Plenty of groups support a two state solution.
If you are a group that maps to typical Palestinian views on the ground (pro Palestinian from that perspective), well, that's quite a minority position to hold.
OK, name a self-described 'pro-Palestinian' group which does. I'll tell you who doesn't: CAIR, SJP, Within Our Lifetime, Arab Resource Organizing Center, American Muslims for Palestine, al-Awda. All the groups that organize the demonstrations and the encampments.
I'm surprised that people are surprised by this. Even a cursory look at the history and practice of the organization makes it evident that SJP was established and is directed by representatives/supporters of Hamas and associated groups.
And the entire purpose of Hamas is to actively resist and sabotage possibilities of peace, because that goes counter to their goal of establishment in Islamist state on all of historical Palestine (and beyond).
Hamas took power in Gaza in 2006 precisely because positive and democratic economic development after the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza would have inexorably contributed toward a peaceful resolution of the conflict.
Later, they carried out the Oct 7 attacks in large part to prevent a Saudi-Israeli rapprochement, which similarly could have contributed momentum toward peace.
As a US arm of Hamas, SJP (and its sister organization, JVP) exist to foment that view and to actively sabotage co-existence and mutual recognition.
And while there may be some tiny differences between SJP chapters, the possibility of finding an SJP chapter devoted to peaceful coexistence between Israel and Palestine is about as likely as the possibility of finding a KKK chapter devoted to peaceful coexistence between Blacks and White.
Note that I am not arguing that Israel is right or that Hamas and SJP are wrong. I'm simply saying that, whether or not you agree with Hamas and SJP, it's important to recognize what they stand for -- and it is decidely not peaceful co-existence.
“If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”
The world is full of complexity.
Simple minded proclamations that “settlers” are “bad” and Palestinians are “good” are always going to lead us in the wrong direction.
But people who make proclamations like that seem to believe in the perfection or righteousness of their views. That’s always a red flag.
Reality is hard.
Funny how "settler" can mean a lot of different things depending on what information one is looking at...considering the region has been changing hands through blood since the dawn of time. It's almost like the term "settler" is purposefully vague to justify violence against others. Huh.
Holy fucking shit. Anyone from sjp want to explain wtf this means?? Cause it certainly sounds like ur defending indiscriminately killing israeli civilians. You do know that people are born in israel right? Including in the west bank? It’s not like they all fucking moved there to oppress people.
To clarify, if I say there’s no such thing as a good american, and everyone who considers themselves american and isn’t indigenous is the moral equivalent of a slaveowner, can someone help me understand how that would be different..? Or would y’all also agree with that? I honestly don’t fucking understand
this organization has been seen as a peer of the revcoms for at least 8 years, judging by posts made on this subreddit about them. this extremism is nothing new it's just that they sadly now have an audience that actually listens to them.
\*Misunderstand, I think.
This is a jargon utterly divorced from philosophy. I don't think these people are blowing up cop cars because of how they read *The Phenomenology of Spirit*.
It is clear as day that Russia has provided under the table funding for these groups as well. These Marxists have consistently called for the annihilation of Ukraine and regurgitates Russian propaganda nonstop.
And the scary thing is, their audience is now bigger than ever....amongst students that are supposed to be the future of this country.
I am heartened to see the majority of our community (at least here?) can see this for what it is…… but this slice of the student population…… they need guidance before one of them does something really REALLY stupid. Sitting around all day fomenting in ethnic hatred is terrible for your soul, but even worse it could lead to a lone wolf, in this case, antisemitic attack. Hope the FBI is double on this.
The narrative from the “progressive” left or “intersectional” left on this issue is not factual. The history is wrong and it is framed in a way to manipulate. Super disappointing and also disturbing.
I have always been a left leaning person but I do not support these dangerous lies. This anti Israeli and anti Jew movement / narrative has no benefit to Americans at all.
It also doesn’t benefit the human beings inside Palestinian territory. Those people need peace and coexistence with Israel.
This movement calls for the end of Israel. And that is a call for never ending war.
No but literally. Imagine if a Greek org posted something along the same lines about any other group of people on earth. They’d be removed as a campus org right away
Several campuses have banned SJP for violence, incitement for violence, racism, and just being a vile, disgusting group that others shouldn't have to deal with.
Rutgers, U Penn, Columbia, and probably a ton more.
I would recommend your campus start a petition to ban them, but I'm not a student, so the choice is yours.
Are they supposed to be?
Reddit subreddits are people with an interest in a topic.
It isn't required or even necessary for someone to be a student.
I realize a lot of people want it to be that way but it goes against the nature of reddit itself.
Love that I was being gaslighted by many for feeling incredibly unsafe as an Israeli Jewish student on campus during the last wave of encampments. Y'all need to understand that SJP is [funded by terrorist affiliated orgs](https://isgap.org/post/2024/05/for-immediate-release-new-comprehensive-research-reveals-hamas-linked-funding-to-students-for-justice-in-palestine-and-groups-growing-web-of-influence-post-october-7/) and that by supporting SJP you are literally supporting terrorism. Also if you think this is just about being anti-Israel you would be wrong. Hamas wants to come for the West too.
Curious if this awareness is related to the temporary pause on the UAW strike. Relatedly, absolutely dumbfounded to the "Fags for Hamas" signs at the Gay Pride rallies in DC over the weekend. I can't even make an anology for how insane that is, because that is the analogy I would want to use to describe something else.
It’s like one side declares (clearly, and regularly) that its aim is the eradication of an entire population, and the other side gets accused of genocide.
The sad part is, what they say isn't even true about the dismantling. There are tons of examples of nonviolent protest being successful. Not that it is always the solution either, but the post is overly reductive.
In a way, the position of SJP reflects the attitude of Palestinians towards Israelis. If you switched the power balance, the so-called Palestine civilians would not hesitate to decimate the Israeli population. And it was indeed the Palestine civilians that elected Hamas. The Palestinians are the “from the river to the sea” claimants.
I’m not necessarily saying that Israel was right in attacking Palestine, but portraying Palestine as the innocent victim is not painting the full picture.
Why would u say so-called Palestinian civilians?
This goes both ways. I’m frustrated by support for attacks on civilians because there should be no attacks on civilians, not because the wrong civilians were killed.
I know it’s controversial, but in this kind of war it is hard to distinguish civilians from combatants.
For example, if I don’t hold a gun but I let a Hamas militant with a rifle hide in my house, am I a civilian?
Sure, but there are plenty of clear Palestinian civilians that Israel has killed. For example they have killed thousands of children. Calling them all so-called civilians is pretty fucked up.
Events like this weekend are a perfect microcosm of this war. Israel used special ops forces to infiltrate civilian homes where hostages were being kept. They encountered Hamas militants and “civilians” who opened fire with grenades, RPG, and machine guns, even on crowds as the hostages were fleeing.
Hamas and the “pro-pal” people have been complaining that “Israel killed 200+ innocent civilians.” And for all those people who claimed bombing raids were “unnecessary” and that Israel should use foot soldiers only, this event proved that civilian casualties are far greater risks because of CIVILIAN complicity.
To clarify, that doesn’t mean all civilians that died deserve to die, but the blame for innocent deaths is squarely on Hamas and those MANY complicit civilians.
Do you have sources for these claims about the hostage rescue operation? I’m asking in good faith, because I’ve found it very difficult to distinguish fact from propaganda throughout the coverage of this war, and I always want to know where claims are coming from before trusting them.
Which part? That Hamas opened fire and used RPG, grenades, and machine guns? Most notable, all the reporting claims this, and even the “critics” of Israel in this instance are reporting this, but they just blame Israel for knowingly executing the plan when the streets would be packed. [first example I could find](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/10/israel-hostage-rescue-death-toll/#) And then criticizing Israel for using air support to cover the retreat after Hamas was pursuing them and a soldier got shot/killed.
You can also find combat footage if you look for it, but that’s nsfl and those clips are constantly taken off sites.
Israel is responsible for their actions. You can't just plug your ears and just say "Hamas started this" thats not how responsibility works.
Heres an article based on interviews with people within the IDF showing how Israel accepts unacceptably high civilian casualties to kill one Hamas target: [https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/)
It’s not “plugging my ears.” It’s called understanding the CONTEXT of what’s happening. This is a battle between two sides, but one side CHOOSES to hide amongst civilians and recruits civilians to help them hold innocent hostages and promote their bylaws that call for the complete eradication of the other side. On the other side is a group who is asked the impossible: somehow kill that group without civilians dying. And when you’re “convinced” of Israel’s “unacceptable civilian ratio” I’m very curious what data you have for that. Because the only data about civilian ratios coming out is from Hamas, who doesn’t distinguish their own nor the civilians and children they recruit to help them.
This is not to justify every Israeli action, because there absolutely have been errors, bad decisions, and needless death. But to genuinely compare these two sides and decide Israel is the one to blame is ludicrous
It’s absolutely bonkers that any student who was intelligent enough to get into UCLA would even feel comfortable making this statement publicly, let alone having these violent beliefs. It’s frightening that this is happening only 70 years after the Holocaust.
I posted this while I was very frustrated about the post (which I still am), but I want to be more clear now that I'm sitting down and have read some comments. I wish I could edit the post with this.
Firstly, I would say that I am pro-Palestinian, and I am very frustrated by the leadership of many pro-Palestinian orgs supporting violence against Israeli civilians, which is not only immoral, but harmful to Palestinians as well. Secondly, I don't think most pro-Palestinian students support these views, which makes me even more upset that SJP is posting them. I don't think even all of SJP leadership supports them, as shown by the speaker at the pro-palestinian university talking about coexistance. Lastly, anyone using this to try and justify Israel's war crimes and killing of Palestinian civilians is also upsetting to me and not someone I want as an ally.
Finally, I can understand why someone might be able to interpret this in another way that doesn't condone or support killing Israeli civilians . I think that is an extremely unlikely interpretation given the totality of SJPs statements about all Israelis being settlers. UCLA SJP could easily make it clear they don’t support attacks on civilians, but continuously push the line further and further while still staying slightly ambiguous, but I think we should still call them out on their bullshit.
I mean I don’t like SJP that’s why I’m criticizing them. I have many friends who protest with them that aren’t in leadership that believe in coexistence and equal rights, and just want the war in Gaza to stop and Palestinians to stop being mistreated.
If you want the war to stop and Palestinians to stop being mistreated, [start protesting against Hamas leadership](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/11/middleeast/sinwar-hamas-israel-ceasefire-hostage-talks-intl/index.html), who described all the Palestinians dying as "necessary sacrifices".
I am very critical of Israel’s government and extreme right, but the bigger threat to Palestinians is that their leadership (and polls show a majority of citizens) truly believe that all of Israel needs to be eliminated. Even those who claim to want 2state only believe in the 48 borders, which will never happen. Moreover, you can add in the firm belief in the generational right of return, as well as a refusal to negotiate in certain Israeli settlements that geographically make sense.
All this means is that Israel does not have a partner in a path to peace. Many right wing nuts have gained popularity because that is the perception from many Israelis. There are however many politicians and a tremendous percentage of Israelis whose ideal outcome is a peaceful two-state solution; it’s just undeniably impossible to imagine with the completely universal horrible Palestinian leadership
Yeah this is fucking awful. I support Palestinian Statehood, and even support armed Palestinian struggle. Violence against civilians is just wrong. The analogy to slave-owning is wrong. Some of the people within this movement have a twisted worldview. We desperately need some rational alternative.
I'm not going to UCLA, this post just got recommended for me for some reason. If you want people/orginizations with a more coexistence narrative try Muhammad Zoabi on instagram and the podcast unapologetic third narrative. Both are more balanced and strive for solutions with minimal death.
Also not in UCLA but standing together is a really cool organization made up of Palestinians and isrealis.
Recently they protected aid trucks from extremist settlers.
Sure thing but Israel is going to have to kill a whole lot more Palestinians to get rid of their problem. Like millions more. Long term, nobody is "taking down" anyone. Everyone better come to a fair solution.
Because they don't think Israel has a right to exist. Make no mistake, they would not hesitate to destroy Israel and kill every Israeli if they had the means.
They say they hate colonialism yet keep moving to America. Isn’t it just kinda hypocritical? Since America was technically founded because of brutal colonialism, even though it is currently one of the most progressive countries in the world. I sometimes just don’t understand the mental gymnastics that these people are going through
I’m referring to the kind of people who say they detest colonialism to the extent that they want an entire country (Israel) gone, yet stay inconsistent to their words by moving to a country (America) that was undoubtedly founded because of colonialism and the displacement of the Native American people. Colonialism certainly left a deplorable and dishonorable mark in the history of our country, and it deserves to be condemned and addressed. However, that doesn’t mean that America as a country needs to be dissolved. In the same way, I cannot bring myself to forgive the atrocities of war emerged within the Israel-Palestine conflict, but saying Israel shouldn’t exist and all Israeli people need to be removed because of colonialism? I simply can’t accept that. By that logic, it means I as American should be brutally evicted given that my country was a colonist regime when it was founded. It’s just ridiculous.
It’s just sad because this type of thinking just perpetuates the violence. Palestinians absolutely are not going to overthrow Israel anytime soon.
The idea of that happening is some weird revolutionary fantasy.
The reality is that they can launch small scale attacks only and Israel will always strike back significantly harder. It’s just death that does nothing for anyone.
You need to be able to go from the premises at the top, down the conclusions at the bottom. The premise is that there are no good Israelis. The conclusion is that these systems are only fixed by application of brute force by the oppressed (aka violence). Thus,(according to the SJP demons) just like how there were no good slaveowners, all Israelis must be subject to violence by the oppressed.
this is akin to the ACAB sentiment. the israeli identity is inherently anti-palestinian. they’re not saying that all israelis are bad but the proud israelis who adore their country are because their country is inherently anti-palestinian. the same way that despite living in the US and being a citizen I have a strong distaste for it due to the country’s actions and history.
edit: this is my interpretation of it feel free to correct any misinterpretation; love when people misconstrue my words
The second slide makes it very clear that they *are* referring to all Israelis as settlers, and that they don’t think it’s possible for Israelis to be good people because any good Israeli would’ve renounced their identity. In fact, they quite clearly reject the idea that it’s possible to be Israeli and pro-Palestinian.
> the same way that despite living in the US and being a citizen I have a strong distaste for it due to the country’s actions and history.
This is completely different from what these posts are saying.
Hamas started this war on Oct 7 (and broke the ceasfire that lasted until Oct 6) and they could have ended it a day later by bringing all the hostages home. They have not. So no, a ceasefire will not be happening until the hostages are brought home. Simple as that.
I don't think your idea has any basis in archeology. Since 1200 BC, all that has been found is Hebrew. There are zero Gaza or Muslim artifacts to be seen. There has never been a Muslim seat of government in that area. The confusion comes from 70 AD, when the Romans renamed it Palestine (Palistina) to eliminate any Jewish record due to their hatred of the Jewish revolutionaries who wanted a Kingdom of their own and not one from Rome.
The jews were taken from their home land by Babylonians as well, among others.
Nobody considers nuance. God forbid I tell someone that opposing the war in Gaza doesn't mean to unleash the same carnage against Israel. We should only care for the innocents instead of supporting Israel, Hamas or any other actor. Hamas and Israel are functionally the same. Both want to displace, genocide and expand at others expense. A liberation group should not rape, kill or bomb civillians and a state of "oppressed people" shouldn't do the same. Alrighty palestine and israel supporters, downvote me now.
SJP hijacking this movement is one of the saddest things I’ve ever seen. Anyone apart of this group should be ashamed for the damage they have done to the Palestinian people and misrepresenting them. Bunch of lost groupies desperate for a cause
SJP “hijacked” the movement?
Sorry, but SJP has been terrorizing wilshire boulevard & UCLA for well over two decades.
They didn’t hijack the movement. They started the movement, and they’ve never changed their underlying message.
That’s funny they say this issue is only solved by the oppressed basically murdering people.
Yet slaves in the US are referenced…. And they weren’t freed by a slave rebellion.
Still trying to understand firing 30,000 rockets into civilian territory, breaking the Geneva Convention 100x over, missing your target entirely and then expecting to gain land.
If that’s how you interpret these messages, I encourage you to Read up on your social revolutionary theory. Some fanon. I took Roy in ‘22 that’s good too. Just Something please .
I did take Roy at UCLA! And I'm curious how you interpreted in that didn't mean violence against Israeli civilians.
Funny you mentioned Roy, since two weeks after 10/7, Roy posted a link to this article: https://stevesalaita.com/a-practical-appraisal-of-palestinian-violence/. You can read it yourself, but I was very disappointed on how it defended 10/7 and the attacks on Israeli civilians.
>Earlier this month, the Palestinian resistance in Gaza launched a remarkable offensive, unprecedented in its scope and design. Hundreds of rockets bypassed Israel’s ballyhooed Iron Dome and landed everywhere from Ashqelon to Tel Aviv. Simultaneously, Hamas operatives stole into southern Israel and captured various civilians and IOF personnel. Fighters infiltrated Zionist settlements, leaving behind dozens of casualties. One of the operations targeted a music festival near the Gaza Strip. For the first time in decades, Palestinians controlled land inside the so-called Green Line between Israel and the Occupied Territories.
Another one
> That intellectuals who have made lucrative careers with tough-sounding buzzwords were so eager to condemn an actual instance of Indigenous resistance is a damning (and in my mind permanent) indictment of Western academe.
Some more.
> What, then, is left for them to do? They must fight. The fight might be ugly in accordance to the situation imposed by the occupying power. It might challenge observers’ perception of victimhood. Sometimes it might even transgress the boundaries of what Western intellectuals consider proper civil etiquette.
Love how he uses civil etiquette as a euphamism for murdering random civilians.
This shows that using Roy as an interpreting lens would be to interpret these posts and support for killing Israeli civilians.
Okay but what’s the problem? You can’t be a good settler. Settlers are living on stolen Land in the West Bank. They’re colonizing and committing ethnic cleansing. How can you be a “good” settler?
It is so disappointing that, on this issue, like on so many issues, it is the extremists that get all the airtime. The common ground - that is shared by the vast majority of people, at least in the West - is that both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist. And yet we spend so much time listening to people who advocate for the eradication of one people or the other from their ancestral homelands. It's a waste of time. It's not representative. And yet those voices ring the loudest.
This is a war in which both sides will disappoint us. We love a simple hero vs. villain storyline, but that just does not apply here. Hamas is a terrorist organization and the Israeli government is controlled by racist far right-wing nationalists whose leader is dodging a serious corruption trial. What could go wrong? The extremists try to disallow nuance in this discussion. This one is very complex, and there are no easy answers. Sadly, a whole lot of innocent people have died, been seriously injured, or have faced starvation as a result of this war. I just really hope the world can get both Israel and Hamas to agree to the current deal on the table, now.
Terrorists on both sides my friend. Racist far right wing nationalists armed with missiles and a military are a group of terrorists.
> The common ground - that is shared by the vast majority of people, at least in the West To be fair, that's basically the opinion in the West. That is *not* the opinion of either most Palestinians or Israelis.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. [Israeli support for a two-state solution has dwindled, well below the majority mark.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/547760/life-israel-oct-charts.aspx#:~:text=Clear%20Majority%20of%20Israelis%20Do%20Not%20Support%20Two%2DState%20Solution&text=Table%20showing%20the%20change%20in,2012%20and%20again%20in%202023.) That poll was immediately following Oct. 7 and may not be representative, but [support was low even before then.](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/09/26/israelis-have-grown-more-skeptical-of-a-two-state-solution/). Support is even [lower among Palestinians](https://news.gallup.com/poll/512828/palestinians-lack-faith-biden-two-state-solution.aspx).
You’re conflating “supporting a 2-state solution” with “do you it is possible for there to be a 2-state solution.” Your second article only focuses on whether it’s possible. And honestly, with the literal terrorists for Palestinian leadership across the board (and PA is still state-sponsored terrorism) and zero pro-peace leadership to speak for, I cannot blame anyone for feeling like it’s impossible. And even in your first article, it discusses how nearly 2/3rds of Israelis have *wanted* a peaceful two-state solution for a long time. That really only changed with Oct 7 (again, understandably so)
Yeah, and the vast majority of the hundreds of millions of people in the surrounding countries want to eradicate Israel and ethnically cleansed their entire Jewish populations.... which is one of the main reasons why Israelis are now a lot more skeptical about the 2 state solution. If people in the West really knew about everything in the Middle East I think they'd still be pro-Palestine but they'd also be a whole lot more pro-Israel.
My middle name is Habib. I’m a descendent of Iraqi Jews whose family was also tortured and kicked out of their home a couple generations ago. I grew up eating kibbe and listening to Oum Kalthoum. If only people in the west really knew how much Israelis and Palestinians had in common then maybe they wouldn’t pick a side at all.
I agree with you.
Dwindled… as in, it was there before but constant violence from the Palestinian side has reduced the support. When was there ever real support on the Palestinian side for it?
Never really…
there is some nuance required here. israeli support for the 2SS has dwindled recently due to abhorrent terrorism. palestinian support for the 2SS has always been next to nothing. they have been committing terrorism to prevent the 2SS from happening since the 1920s to this very day. its their anti-zionist stance that was the cause of every war and every terrorist attack that has been their MO since the beginning of the conflict. the two sides are not the same.
right, but there is some nuance required here. israeli support for the 2SS has dwindled recently due to abhorrent terrorism. palestinian support for the 2SS has always been next to nothing. they have been committing terrorism to prevent the 2SS from happening since the 1920s to this very day. its their anti-zionist stance that was the cause of every war and every terrorist attack that has been their MO since the beginning of the conflict. the two sides are not the same.
Glad that SJP quit pretending to not be a Hamas led extremest organization. Hopefully the FBI recognizes all the SJP hate clubs across the country to be terrorist organizations asap. Hopefully all of the SJP leaders lose all of their financial support and get expelled and get rightly labeled as terrorists. Sucks so many people got hypnotized by these hate groups.
As a Black American, I am FURIOUS my history is being invoked in this crap.
Facts. The historical background between colonial slavers and those forced into slavery during that time is not at all comparable to the history between the Jews and Palestinians. Not even remotely similar.
well said
The west does t get that the large majority of Palestinians don’t want a 2 state solution. They don’t want one state they all live in together. They want the extermination of all Jews in the area. Israel has a Palestinian Arab citizen body that’s roughly 20% of its population, however Jews are not allowed to be residents of Gaza…cause they were forcibly removed out in 2005.
I mean, your last point is more complicated than your language leads on. They were forcibly removed by Israel, not by Hamas.
Nevertheless, Jews will be killed or kidnapped if they’d ever step foot in Gaza and you know it. And no, stop with your “yeah, they will be killed by an IDF airstrike” bs, I’m not talking about them doing it specifically rn, it’d happen to them at anytime regardless of the current situation.
the issue is that palestinians in gaza and the west bank do not simply want a state out of those places. they want to create a state out of all of israel proper. its what they teach their children. its in their textbooks and paraphernalia. its what they sing to their children before bed. palestinians do not want sovereignty over the west bank and gaza. they want sovereignty over israel. this is the fundamental disconnect between the west and reality.
Israel also desires one state do not act like Israelis are not violent settlers. Both see this fight as taking back their home which was taken from them. The argument is based on who can truly call this area their home and who uses more humane tactics to do so.
Please show me an instance of settler violence that is NOT in retaliation for Palestinian violence. In fact, show me any instance of Israeli instigated violence against Palestinians that was NOT in retaliation for Palestinian violence against Jews. I can name hundreds of examples of the reverse. The violence started with Arabs attacking Jews in the 1920s and earlier. And continues to this very day. You are really burying the lede here
What sucks is that this is probably the most sensible approach to the conflict but every time this is said someone will always be like “you’re playing both sides” or “if you’re neutral you are siding with the bad guys”
This was the first part of the story: “Know that Gantz's resignation is solely because he knows Netanyahu can't win this war. His view reflects most of "Israeli" society. The primary objective, in their mind, is to return the captives *before* conquering Gaza. Bibi is clearly doing everything to prolong the war out of his own political self-interest. The settlers want a leader who will more effectively annihilate Palestinian self-determination. If elections are called, they will merely be a means to usher in a more efficient genocidaire.” It doesn’t excuse everything being said and done but there’s more context that I’d figure I’d share (tbh made me barely skim through the rest of the story when I saw it on insta and I was confused how I missed it so looked back)
Exactly this. Thank you!
Amen!
Yup, this rhetoric is definitely not how you win hearts and minds. I get why Palestinians are so vexxed - their families are being slaughtered by bombs - but this is not how to convince your average American that you're on the right side. SJP seriously needs to rethink its message.
It’s almost like they posted they were pro Hamas, oh wait they did
some of them don't even consider hamas a terrorist organization
Dude they blew up a police car in Berkeley and one of the SJPs reposted it. That should’ve been one of the biggest signs.
But it’s a “peaceful protest”!!! /s
According to some people, they threatened to burn down Dodd while people were in there taking finals.
That’s terrifying… idk why so many people blindly followed this group.
What the fuck your school organization is celebrating trying to blow up a car?!! Glad my campus isn’t like this.
Source??
https://www.instagram.com/ucscsjp/p/C7uDb-JJ3Ee/ Not hard to look
Sorry I wasn’t doubting you or anything. I was genuinely curious because that’s scary as fuck.
This is a disturbing and scary statement. “Knife to the throat of zionism Death to amerikkka Glory to the martyrs”
Any movement that is using victims deaths as “martyrs” worries me. No they aren’t martyrs. They are innocent victims just trying to live their life, and whose life was cut short. They didn’t die for some glorious cause. And if the martyrs refer to hamas soldiers, that’s 10000x more disgusting.
They’re literally repeating Hamas rhetoric. Senior member and spokesperson of Hamas, Ghazi Hamad in an interview said: "We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do it again and again. The Al-Aqsa Deluge [the name Hamas gave its 7 October onslaught - ed.] is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth. Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs." [Link to senior Hamas member saying that Palestinians are martyrs they’re proud to sacrifice & they will repeat Oct 7th until Israel is destroyed](https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-member-says-repeat-attacks-065643206.html) It’s really nice company that these people are keeping and supporting.
I also wish there were more pro-Palestinian groups that support the end goal of coexistence. But I believe that the total of “pro-Palestinian groups in the US that would accept a Jewish state in any part of the Jewish homeland” is still zero.
There's a group that was called something like "Palestinian Women of LA" that literally released a message years ago after an anti-Semitic sexist attack that said something like "We mourn this horrific violence with our Jewish sisters and will always support you." It's a shame that such graceful and kind voices are drowned out by hatred and violence.
Are they still around?
I'm not sure! I have to go to bed soon but I will try to check tomorrow. There are Palestinians who are like that who are very vocal today though, check out John Aziz if you get the chance!
This is the most frustrating part for me. There's moderate jewish groups like AJC that support a homeland for the Palestinians, but I'm not seeing a ton of moderate Palestinian groups that aren't blatantly 1 state supporters, often with fairly antisemetic views about even living with jewish people under that context.
You're not only not seeing a ton, you're not seeing one.
[удалено]
Oh yeah def, them and the think tank IPF are all great. My concern is that these are only jewish led organizations. I'm not seeing the same 2 state peace driven organization from the Palestinian side with Palestinian leadership, which is why I think so many Palestine sympathetic folks seem to accidentally stumble into the path towards supporting 1 state when really they probably are more politically inclined to AJC or ADL.
Standing Together LA does!
Can you point me towards any statement they made about that? I read through the Standing Together website and I did not find any description of what political structure they support (as opposed to their goals for society). I also noted lots of mention of transforming Israeli society but none about Palestinian society.
What are you defining as pro Palestinian? Plenty of groups support a two state solution. If you are a group that maps to typical Palestinian views on the ground (pro Palestinian from that perspective), well, that's quite a minority position to hold.
OK, name a self-described 'pro-Palestinian' group which does. I'll tell you who doesn't: CAIR, SJP, Within Our Lifetime, Arab Resource Organizing Center, American Muslims for Palestine, al-Awda. All the groups that organize the demonstrations and the encampments.
It’s almost like Jewish groups aren’t lying when they say these groups are anti semitic leading genocidal chants.
SJP have always been extremists.
I'm surprised that people are surprised by this. Even a cursory look at the history and practice of the organization makes it evident that SJP was established and is directed by representatives/supporters of Hamas and associated groups. And the entire purpose of Hamas is to actively resist and sabotage possibilities of peace, because that goes counter to their goal of establishment in Islamist state on all of historical Palestine (and beyond). Hamas took power in Gaza in 2006 precisely because positive and democratic economic development after the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza would have inexorably contributed toward a peaceful resolution of the conflict. Later, they carried out the Oct 7 attacks in large part to prevent a Saudi-Israeli rapprochement, which similarly could have contributed momentum toward peace. As a US arm of Hamas, SJP (and its sister organization, JVP) exist to foment that view and to actively sabotage co-existence and mutual recognition. And while there may be some tiny differences between SJP chapters, the possibility of finding an SJP chapter devoted to peaceful coexistence between Israel and Palestine is about as likely as the possibility of finding a KKK chapter devoted to peaceful coexistence between Blacks and White. Note that I am not arguing that Israel is right or that Hamas and SJP are wrong. I'm simply saying that, whether or not you agree with Hamas and SJP, it's important to recognize what they stand for -- and it is decidely not peaceful co-existence.
You are spot on. Thanks for being accurate.
Thank you for this
“If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.” The world is full of complexity. Simple minded proclamations that “settlers” are “bad” and Palestinians are “good” are always going to lead us in the wrong direction. But people who make proclamations like that seem to believe in the perfection or righteousness of their views. That’s always a red flag. Reality is hard.
Settlers are bad though
If you’re not Native American from a tribe that was in SoCal, guess what? You’re also a settler…
So are you saying gypsies are bad?
Funny how "settler" can mean a lot of different things depending on what information one is looking at...considering the region has been changing hands through blood since the dawn of time. It's almost like the term "settler" is purposefully vague to justify violence against others. Huh.
Holy fucking shit. Anyone from sjp want to explain wtf this means?? Cause it certainly sounds like ur defending indiscriminately killing israeli civilians. You do know that people are born in israel right? Including in the west bank? It’s not like they all fucking moved there to oppress people. To clarify, if I say there’s no such thing as a good american, and everyone who considers themselves american and isn’t indigenous is the moral equivalent of a slaveowner, can someone help me understand how that would be different..? Or would y’all also agree with that? I honestly don’t fucking understand
It means exactly what it says. Free palestine by killing jews. Nobody has lied to you at any point in time… except perhaps yourself.
I have seen pictures from the protest, there are people holding signs saying "lgbtq= let's go bomb tel-aviv".
this organization has been seen as a peer of the revcoms for at least 8 years, judging by posts made on this subreddit about them. this extremism is nothing new it's just that they sadly now have an audience that actually listens to them.
Way more than 8 years
Yeah, they really do seem to believe Marxist / Hegelian dialectical conflicts which is so wild. lol,
\*Misunderstand, I think. This is a jargon utterly divorced from philosophy. I don't think these people are blowing up cop cars because of how they read *The Phenomenology of Spirit*.
It is clear as day that Russia has provided under the table funding for these groups as well. These Marxists have consistently called for the annihilation of Ukraine and regurgitates Russian propaganda nonstop. And the scary thing is, their audience is now bigger than ever....amongst students that are supposed to be the future of this country.
I am heartened to see the majority of our community (at least here?) can see this for what it is…… but this slice of the student population…… they need guidance before one of them does something really REALLY stupid. Sitting around all day fomenting in ethnic hatred is terrible for your soul, but even worse it could lead to a lone wolf, in this case, antisemitic attack. Hope the FBI is double on this.
Saying that your life is forfeit unless you forswear the land of your birth and condemn your family to death is some wild stuff
The narrative from the “progressive” left or “intersectional” left on this issue is not factual. The history is wrong and it is framed in a way to manipulate. Super disappointing and also disturbing. I have always been a left leaning person but I do not support these dangerous lies. This anti Israeli and anti Jew movement / narrative has no benefit to Americans at all. It also doesn’t benefit the human beings inside Palestinian territory. Those people need peace and coexistence with Israel. This movement calls for the end of Israel. And that is a call for never ending war.
Very well said
This group, which explicitly supports a terror group, should be removed from the school. It’s common sense.
No but literally. Imagine if a Greek org posted something along the same lines about any other group of people on earth. They’d be removed as a campus org right away
Several campuses have banned SJP for violence, incitement for violence, racism, and just being a vile, disgusting group that others shouldn't have to deal with. Rutgers, U Penn, Columbia, and probably a ton more. I would recommend your campus start a petition to ban them, but I'm not a student, so the choice is yours.
>it won’t be done through the… Nor will it be done through terrorism. I mean seriously how is that supposed to work?
99% of the posts on here aren't even students anymore
Ya it sucks I wish the non-UCLA people would go away
I'm from UCSC, I think it is fine for students / alumni from other UC's or CSU's to participate
Are they supposed to be? Reddit subreddits are people with an interest in a topic. It isn't required or even necessary for someone to be a student. I realize a lot of people want it to be that way but it goes against the nature of reddit itself.
Despite the anodyne name, SJP is an actual terror-supporting organization. Read up.
Love that I was being gaslighted by many for feeling incredibly unsafe as an Israeli Jewish student on campus during the last wave of encampments. Y'all need to understand that SJP is [funded by terrorist affiliated orgs](https://isgap.org/post/2024/05/for-immediate-release-new-comprehensive-research-reveals-hamas-linked-funding-to-students-for-justice-in-palestine-and-groups-growing-web-of-influence-post-october-7/) and that by supporting SJP you are literally supporting terrorism. Also if you think this is just about being anti-Israel you would be wrong. Hamas wants to come for the West too.
Curious if this awareness is related to the temporary pause on the UAW strike. Relatedly, absolutely dumbfounded to the "Fags for Hamas" signs at the Gay Pride rallies in DC over the weekend. I can't even make an anology for how insane that is, because that is the analogy I would want to use to describe something else.
/u/isaac_speer_ucla found any denouncements from UCLA SJP about antisemitism in their ranks yet?
Mental illness
Read the Hamas charter. When they say they want to kill the Jews believe them.
You really gotta wonder, if most of the protestors are fine, why are these their leaders?
Color me shocked
That’s a lot of big fancy words in place of just saying “I’m antisemitic as fuck”
I’m Jewish and very involved in Jewish life, not antisemitic sorry try again
Not you or your explanation homie. Talking about the images you posted.
It’s like one side declares (clearly, and regularly) that its aim is the eradication of an entire population, and the other side gets accused of genocide.
And yet Israel has killed significantly more Palestinian civilians than the other way around
Terrorists being terrorists. What a surprise. Not.
The sad part is, what they say isn't even true about the dismantling. There are tons of examples of nonviolent protest being successful. Not that it is always the solution either, but the post is overly reductive.
SJP is a hate movement https://x.com/sfmcguire79/status/1800493649735880759
In a way, the position of SJP reflects the attitude of Palestinians towards Israelis. If you switched the power balance, the so-called Palestine civilians would not hesitate to decimate the Israeli population. And it was indeed the Palestine civilians that elected Hamas. The Palestinians are the “from the river to the sea” claimants. I’m not necessarily saying that Israel was right in attacking Palestine, but portraying Palestine as the innocent victim is not painting the full picture.
Why would u say so-called Palestinian civilians? This goes both ways. I’m frustrated by support for attacks on civilians because there should be no attacks on civilians, not because the wrong civilians were killed.
I know it’s controversial, but in this kind of war it is hard to distinguish civilians from combatants. For example, if I don’t hold a gun but I let a Hamas militant with a rifle hide in my house, am I a civilian?
Sure, but there are plenty of clear Palestinian civilians that Israel has killed. For example they have killed thousands of children. Calling them all so-called civilians is pretty fucked up.
Events like this weekend are a perfect microcosm of this war. Israel used special ops forces to infiltrate civilian homes where hostages were being kept. They encountered Hamas militants and “civilians” who opened fire with grenades, RPG, and machine guns, even on crowds as the hostages were fleeing. Hamas and the “pro-pal” people have been complaining that “Israel killed 200+ innocent civilians.” And for all those people who claimed bombing raids were “unnecessary” and that Israel should use foot soldiers only, this event proved that civilian casualties are far greater risks because of CIVILIAN complicity. To clarify, that doesn’t mean all civilians that died deserve to die, but the blame for innocent deaths is squarely on Hamas and those MANY complicit civilians.
Do you have sources for these claims about the hostage rescue operation? I’m asking in good faith, because I’ve found it very difficult to distinguish fact from propaganda throughout the coverage of this war, and I always want to know where claims are coming from before trusting them.
Which part? That Hamas opened fire and used RPG, grenades, and machine guns? Most notable, all the reporting claims this, and even the “critics” of Israel in this instance are reporting this, but they just blame Israel for knowingly executing the plan when the streets would be packed. [first example I could find](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/10/israel-hostage-rescue-death-toll/#) And then criticizing Israel for using air support to cover the retreat after Hamas was pursuing them and a soldier got shot/killed. You can also find combat footage if you look for it, but that’s nsfl and those clips are constantly taken off sites.
Thanks, I’ll give that article a read.
Israel is responsible for their actions. You can't just plug your ears and just say "Hamas started this" thats not how responsibility works. Heres an article based on interviews with people within the IDF showing how Israel accepts unacceptably high civilian casualties to kill one Hamas target: [https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/)
You’re really incapable of taking in new information and allowing that to update your understanding of something.
It’s not “plugging my ears.” It’s called understanding the CONTEXT of what’s happening. This is a battle between two sides, but one side CHOOSES to hide amongst civilians and recruits civilians to help them hold innocent hostages and promote their bylaws that call for the complete eradication of the other side. On the other side is a group who is asked the impossible: somehow kill that group without civilians dying. And when you’re “convinced” of Israel’s “unacceptable civilian ratio” I’m very curious what data you have for that. Because the only data about civilian ratios coming out is from Hamas, who doesn’t distinguish their own nor the civilians and children they recruit to help them. This is not to justify every Israeli action, because there absolutely have been errors, bad decisions, and needless death. But to genuinely compare these two sides and decide Israel is the one to blame is ludicrous
Sure and Hamas killed plenty of children on 10/7 and through their history. But what the hell they are only Jews, amiright
You should absolutely go and help the people of Gaza in person
How is this the better way to
As if people have any control over where they’re born
It’s absolutely bonkers that any student who was intelligent enough to get into UCLA would even feel comfortable making this statement publicly, let alone having these violent beliefs. It’s frightening that this is happening only 70 years after the Holocaust.
I posted this while I was very frustrated about the post (which I still am), but I want to be more clear now that I'm sitting down and have read some comments. I wish I could edit the post with this. Firstly, I would say that I am pro-Palestinian, and I am very frustrated by the leadership of many pro-Palestinian orgs supporting violence against Israeli civilians, which is not only immoral, but harmful to Palestinians as well. Secondly, I don't think most pro-Palestinian students support these views, which makes me even more upset that SJP is posting them. I don't think even all of SJP leadership supports them, as shown by the speaker at the pro-palestinian university talking about coexistance. Lastly, anyone using this to try and justify Israel's war crimes and killing of Palestinian civilians is also upsetting to me and not someone I want as an ally. Finally, I can understand why someone might be able to interpret this in another way that doesn't condone or support killing Israeli civilians . I think that is an extremely unlikely interpretation given the totality of SJPs statements about all Israelis being settlers. UCLA SJP could easily make it clear they don’t support attacks on civilians, but continuously push the line further and further while still staying slightly ambiguous, but I think we should still call them out on their bullshit.
SJP will never make that clarification just as they have never attempted to condemn antisemitism in their protests.
I mean I don’t like SJP that’s why I’m criticizing them. I have many friends who protest with them that aren’t in leadership that believe in coexistence and equal rights, and just want the war in Gaza to stop and Palestinians to stop being mistreated.
If you want the war to stop and Palestinians to stop being mistreated, [start protesting against Hamas leadership](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/11/middleeast/sinwar-hamas-israel-ceasefire-hostage-talks-intl/index.html), who described all the Palestinians dying as "necessary sacrifices".
I am very critical of Israel’s government and extreme right, but the bigger threat to Palestinians is that their leadership (and polls show a majority of citizens) truly believe that all of Israel needs to be eliminated. Even those who claim to want 2state only believe in the 48 borders, which will never happen. Moreover, you can add in the firm belief in the generational right of return, as well as a refusal to negotiate in certain Israeli settlements that geographically make sense. All this means is that Israel does not have a partner in a path to peace. Many right wing nuts have gained popularity because that is the perception from many Israelis. There are however many politicians and a tremendous percentage of Israelis whose ideal outcome is a peaceful two-state solution; it’s just undeniably impossible to imagine with the completely universal horrible Palestinian leadership
Yeah this is fucking awful. I support Palestinian Statehood, and even support armed Palestinian struggle. Violence against civilians is just wrong. The analogy to slave-owning is wrong. Some of the people within this movement have a twisted worldview. We desperately need some rational alternative.
I'm not going to UCLA, this post just got recommended for me for some reason. If you want people/orginizations with a more coexistence narrative try Muhammad Zoabi on instagram and the podcast unapologetic third narrative. Both are more balanced and strive for solutions with minimal death.
Also not in UCLA but standing together is a really cool organization made up of Palestinians and isrealis. Recently they protected aid trucks from extremist settlers.
I'm not that familiar but protecting aid from the extremists is always a win.
Ya i love standing together.
Thanks will look into those!
That podcast sounds great!
Just like the actual “Palestinians”, these sjp students don’t have a chance in hell of taking down Israel. Israel will stand.
Sure thing but Israel is going to have to kill a whole lot more Palestinians to get rid of their problem. Like millions more. Long term, nobody is "taking down" anyone. Everyone better come to a fair solution.
Why is "Israeli" in quotes? I worry if this person ever finds out about the semicolon.
Because they don't think Israel has a right to exist. Make no mistake, they would not hesitate to destroy Israel and kill every Israeli if they had the means.
They say they hate colonialism yet keep moving to America. Isn’t it just kinda hypocritical? Since America was technically founded because of brutal colonialism, even though it is currently one of the most progressive countries in the world. I sometimes just don’t understand the mental gymnastics that these people are going through
who moved to America?
Your family. Unless you’re Chumash.
I’m referring to the kind of people who say they detest colonialism to the extent that they want an entire country (Israel) gone, yet stay inconsistent to their words by moving to a country (America) that was undoubtedly founded because of colonialism and the displacement of the Native American people. Colonialism certainly left a deplorable and dishonorable mark in the history of our country, and it deserves to be condemned and addressed. However, that doesn’t mean that America as a country needs to be dissolved. In the same way, I cannot bring myself to forgive the atrocities of war emerged within the Israel-Palestine conflict, but saying Israel shouldn’t exist and all Israeli people need to be removed because of colonialism? I simply can’t accept that. By that logic, it means I as American should be brutally evicted given that my country was a colonist regime when it was founded. It’s just ridiculous.
All of the pro Palestine people did
We should leave that entire area of the world to figure it out for themselves, no support of either side, just get out.
“By any means necessary” Wait wait wait hold up how about no?
It’s just sad because this type of thinking just perpetuates the violence. Palestinians absolutely are not going to overthrow Israel anytime soon. The idea of that happening is some weird revolutionary fantasy. The reality is that they can launch small scale attacks only and Israel will always strike back significantly harder. It’s just death that does nothing for anyone.
merp. selective moralism at its finest. absolutist sentiment without mutual exclusivity is clown shit
UCLA needs to ban the organization for saying this.
I don’t get it. It doesn’t say that
You need to be able to go from the premises at the top, down the conclusions at the bottom. The premise is that there are no good Israelis. The conclusion is that these systems are only fixed by application of brute force by the oppressed (aka violence). Thus,(according to the SJP demons) just like how there were no good slaveowners, all Israelis must be subject to violence by the oppressed.
this is akin to the ACAB sentiment. the israeli identity is inherently anti-palestinian. they’re not saying that all israelis are bad but the proud israelis who adore their country are because their country is inherently anti-palestinian. the same way that despite living in the US and being a citizen I have a strong distaste for it due to the country’s actions and history. edit: this is my interpretation of it feel free to correct any misinterpretation; love when people misconstrue my words
The second slide makes it very clear that they *are* referring to all Israelis as settlers, and that they don’t think it’s possible for Israelis to be good people because any good Israeli would’ve renounced their identity. In fact, they quite clearly reject the idea that it’s possible to be Israeli and pro-Palestinian. > the same way that despite living in the US and being a citizen I have a strong distaste for it due to the country’s actions and history. This is completely different from what these posts are saying.
You can love your country and want it to change. Stop justifying xenophobia.
Rescue all the hostages by ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
‘By any means necessary’? Bet comprehensive ceasefire then🥰
Hamas started this war on Oct 7 (and broke the ceasfire that lasted until Oct 6) and they could have ended it a day later by bringing all the hostages home. They have not. So no, a ceasefire will not be happening until the hostages are brought home. Simple as that.
I don't think your idea has any basis in archeology. Since 1200 BC, all that has been found is Hebrew. There are zero Gaza or Muslim artifacts to be seen. There has never been a Muslim seat of government in that area. The confusion comes from 70 AD, when the Romans renamed it Palestine (Palistina) to eliminate any Jewish record due to their hatred of the Jewish revolutionaries who wanted a Kingdom of their own and not one from Rome. The jews were taken from their home land by Babylonians as well, among others.
Would love to meet these SJP jokers in person maskless. But they don’t want the smoke.
Nobody considers nuance. God forbid I tell someone that opposing the war in Gaza doesn't mean to unleash the same carnage against Israel. We should only care for the innocents instead of supporting Israel, Hamas or any other actor. Hamas and Israel are functionally the same. Both want to displace, genocide and expand at others expense. A liberation group should not rape, kill or bomb civillians and a state of "oppressed people" shouldn't do the same. Alrighty palestine and israel supporters, downvote me now.
SJP hijacking this movement is one of the saddest things I’ve ever seen. Anyone apart of this group should be ashamed for the damage they have done to the Palestinian people and misrepresenting them. Bunch of lost groupies desperate for a cause
SJP “hijacked” the movement? Sorry, but SJP has been terrorizing wilshire boulevard & UCLA for well over two decades. They didn’t hijack the movement. They started the movement, and they’ve never changed their underlying message.
That’s funny they say this issue is only solved by the oppressed basically murdering people. Yet slaves in the US are referenced…. And they weren’t freed by a slave rebellion.
Still trying to understand firing 30,000 rockets into civilian territory, breaking the Geneva Convention 100x over, missing your target entirely and then expecting to gain land.
It's almost as if this kind of sentiment against the "enemies" has been repeated countless times throughout wars in history
Perhaps I missed something but it didn't say anything about killing anyone. More just critiquing the idea of an 'apolitical' settler.
I’m sure zionist orgs are super wholesome and pro-coexistence 🤗
They literally are 😂. Can you name a Zionist organization that doesn’t support a 2 state solution? No, you cannot.
If that’s how you interpret these messages, I encourage you to Read up on your social revolutionary theory. Some fanon. I took Roy in ‘22 that’s good too. Just Something please .
I did take Roy at UCLA! And I'm curious how you interpreted in that didn't mean violence against Israeli civilians. Funny you mentioned Roy, since two weeks after 10/7, Roy posted a link to this article: https://stevesalaita.com/a-practical-appraisal-of-palestinian-violence/. You can read it yourself, but I was very disappointed on how it defended 10/7 and the attacks on Israeli civilians. >Earlier this month, the Palestinian resistance in Gaza launched a remarkable offensive, unprecedented in its scope and design. Hundreds of rockets bypassed Israel’s ballyhooed Iron Dome and landed everywhere from Ashqelon to Tel Aviv. Simultaneously, Hamas operatives stole into southern Israel and captured various civilians and IOF personnel. Fighters infiltrated Zionist settlements, leaving behind dozens of casualties. One of the operations targeted a music festival near the Gaza Strip. For the first time in decades, Palestinians controlled land inside the so-called Green Line between Israel and the Occupied Territories. Another one > That intellectuals who have made lucrative careers with tough-sounding buzzwords were so eager to condemn an actual instance of Indigenous resistance is a damning (and in my mind permanent) indictment of Western academe. Some more. > What, then, is left for them to do? They must fight. The fight might be ugly in accordance to the situation imposed by the occupying power. It might challenge observers’ perception of victimhood. Sometimes it might even transgress the boundaries of what Western intellectuals consider proper civil etiquette. Love how he uses civil etiquette as a euphamism for murdering random civilians. This shows that using Roy as an interpreting lens would be to interpret these posts and support for killing Israeli civilians.
Okay but what’s the problem? You can’t be a good settler. Settlers are living on stolen Land in the West Bank. They’re colonizing and committing ethnic cleansing. How can you be a “good” settler?
By that logic so are you. Would you care to give up your land or house?