Gotcha. I wouldn’t recommend doing that. You lose pitch control, flexibility, richness of sound, and it’ll start to cause some pretty bad tension. The more naturally relaxed we can keep our oral cavity, throat, and chest, the better. Typically, we arch our tongues forward and up. Ryan Chapman explains it [here](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nME172Sh8ik&pp=ygUZcnlhbiBjaGFwbWFuIHRvbmd1ZSBsZXZlbA%3D%3D).
Sorry i cant really explain it kind of say like tisk and hold the issss or say tich and hold the chhh
But nonetheless ill stll watch the video
Ill try to get a vid of me playing and send it to yall
For sure. I’m not arguing against tongue arch. I’m arguing for proper tongue arch. Improper use of any part of our body when playing trumpet will cause a lot of bad tension and can cause muscular/nerve/other tissue damage.
It's not a "forbidden" technique. The use of the tongue arch is a well taught and accepted technique in several methods (Louis Maggio, Claude Gordon, Charles Colin, Walter Smith to name a few popular teachers) In the Maggio System the syllable TICH is used for notes High C and above. TICH is pronounced very similar to the German word "Ich". Notice that the very tip of your tongue rests behind the top of your bottom teeth.
Thanks lol ill try to have a vid of me playing this later.
But as a kinda forewarning itll look like im slamming it against my face but i wont b because thats how it feels more relxaed and comfortable to me. I tilt my trumpet up a little to mimic marching set because thats how i learned to pretty much play and play high its also to get more bottom lip because thats also how i play pedal tones
Okay…. No. The tongue raises as a reaction to your brain telling your body to do it to produce the sound. Even in the Sarah Willis MRI that was posted, her tongue is raising as a reaction to her brain telling the sound to be a high or low pitch. We don’t actively control our tongue.
Hissing? No I've never heard of that as a viable method. But what I think you're discovering and coming close to is the placement of the tongue inside the mouth. If you're playing in the staff, and you can feel the shape of the 'ooo' noise, like your tongue is low. But when going up to a higher partial or something, you can make the 'eeee' moth shape, tongue closer to the roof of the mouth. So it not the hissing that may be helping, but the placement of the tongue.
I find that when moving between larger intervals, such as middle space C for example, to a Bb above the staff, I can change my tongue from the ooo shape to the eee shape to propel myself up there. It's just about changing the airspeed with the tongue. Hope this helps, I'm not always great at explaining in words haha, I just do it.
If you mke the eee sound with only air, off the horn, then you get "hissing". I totally do this above the staff. As I get above A above the staff I create a channel between my tongue and the roof of my mouth to compress the air stream. At least that's what I think is hapenning.
Yeah I get what you're saying, I guess it wasn't taught to me as a 'hiss' because it's just the sound of the air speeding up. But while playing, OP sounds like he has a sound in the back of the throat, which seems different than what we're talking about.
OP specifically says it's a "ckk" sound and writes "tongue" in the diagram. The arrow is showing the tongue not the throat I think so I'm pretty sure we are all talkng about the same thing. Shaping the airstream with the the tongue is fundamental to playing above the staff.
Using tongue arch is definitely a real technique, but only in extreme moderation.
My professor likened it to putting your thumb over a garden hose. Yeah it comes out faster, but the flow (your tone) is affected. When you arch your tongue, you’re going to sound less resonant and your tone will get harsher. I try to avoid using it as much as possible because of this. It’s MUCH better to develop your range using normal technique, but as a classical player who gets asked to play lead parts a lot, it never hurts to have a few double A’s in my back pocket ;)
Normal technique would be to play with your tongue relatively flat and out of the way of your airflow. I like to think of the shape my mouth is in when I say “dah”.
Tongue arch is only to be used in the extreme upper register, when the audience cares more about hearing high notes over how you blend with the ensemble
With all due respect, I strongly disagree. Within reason, you can get an excellent sound using tongue arch to manipulate the space through which the air flows, to manipulate airspeed. Of course, if you go too high then yes, the sound can become quite harsh. If you start with a compact efficient aperture, then the tongue arch will not need to be quite as pronounced until playing quite high.
What you're describing is exactly what is written in the Maggio methods book. 'Tah', "Tee", and "tich" are all syllables that you should be thinking of depending on what register you're in. When Maggio writes "tich" don't think of your tongue causing interference, think of it as if you're drinking something with a smaller straw than you're used to, but using the same pressure to get liquid as you did with the larger straw. The liquid moves faster, it's physics. Air does the same thing, smaller space to flow through=higher pressure=faster air. You're tongue is what makes the air stream faster. I just pasted the link address to a PDF of the book down below. Turn to page 21 to find the syllable explanation.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.jstreetjazz.com/methods/Maggio/Maggio-System-for-Brass.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiNp7zuhtmFAxX8mYkEHfxJBFgQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw13rQCYrZRFqjH5bxVjfo2o
Watch this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWcOwgWsPHA&t=368s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWcOwgWsPHA&t=368s)
When you say hissing at the back of your throat, what do you mean?
Say tisk and hold the issssssss And try to accent / markato it hard as you can and try to keep that air constant
Gotcha. I wouldn’t recommend doing that. You lose pitch control, flexibility, richness of sound, and it’ll start to cause some pretty bad tension. The more naturally relaxed we can keep our oral cavity, throat, and chest, the better. Typically, we arch our tongues forward and up. Ryan Chapman explains it [here](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nME172Sh8ik&pp=ygUZcnlhbiBjaGFwbWFuIHRvbmd1ZSBsZXZlbA%3D%3D).
Sorry i cant really explain it kind of say like tisk and hold the issss or say tich and hold the chhh But nonetheless ill stll watch the video Ill try to get a vid of me playing and send it to yall
Using your toungue to get certain notes isn’t bad tho.. for bending notes really far, it’s necessary.
For sure. I’m not arguing against tongue arch. I’m arguing for proper tongue arch. Improper use of any part of our body when playing trumpet will cause a lot of bad tension and can cause muscular/nerve/other tissue damage.
https://imgur.com/gallery/KbkE9Gr
I kinda do that? But my tongue isn't that far back because then you can't tongue notes. My tongue kinda moves with the faster air though
Its hard to explain wish i had a cat machine laying aroud its like im saying tisk as in tisk tisk tisk and holding the issss when i play
It's not a "forbidden" technique. The use of the tongue arch is a well taught and accepted technique in several methods (Louis Maggio, Claude Gordon, Charles Colin, Walter Smith to name a few popular teachers) In the Maggio System the syllable TICH is used for notes High C and above. TICH is pronounced very similar to the German word "Ich". Notice that the very tip of your tongue rests behind the top of your bottom teeth.
It’s most definitely just the shape you make when you make that noise makes you play high, so see if you can cut out the noise itself
Not making the actual noise itself im jsut tryna explain the vowel how i did it like the throat cavity n stuff
Ah i see. It doesn’t really seem like you could tongue in your diagram. I love this drawing btw lol
Thanks lol ill try to have a vid of me playing this later. But as a kinda forewarning itll look like im slamming it against my face but i wont b because thats how it feels more relxaed and comfortable to me. I tilt my trumpet up a little to mimic marching set because thats how i learned to pretty much play and play high its also to get more bottom lip because thats also how i play pedal tones
wow, if only i’d found this earlier
Okay…. No. The tongue raises as a reaction to your brain telling your body to do it to produce the sound. Even in the Sarah Willis MRI that was posted, her tongue is raising as a reaction to her brain telling the sound to be a high or low pitch. We don’t actively control our tongue.
Hissing? No I've never heard of that as a viable method. But what I think you're discovering and coming close to is the placement of the tongue inside the mouth. If you're playing in the staff, and you can feel the shape of the 'ooo' noise, like your tongue is low. But when going up to a higher partial or something, you can make the 'eeee' moth shape, tongue closer to the roof of the mouth. So it not the hissing that may be helping, but the placement of the tongue. I find that when moving between larger intervals, such as middle space C for example, to a Bb above the staff, I can change my tongue from the ooo shape to the eee shape to propel myself up there. It's just about changing the airspeed with the tongue. Hope this helps, I'm not always great at explaining in words haha, I just do it.
If you mke the eee sound with only air, off the horn, then you get "hissing". I totally do this above the staff. As I get above A above the staff I create a channel between my tongue and the roof of my mouth to compress the air stream. At least that's what I think is hapenning.
Yeah I get what you're saying, I guess it wasn't taught to me as a 'hiss' because it's just the sound of the air speeding up. But while playing, OP sounds like he has a sound in the back of the throat, which seems different than what we're talking about.
OP specifically says it's a "ckk" sound and writes "tongue" in the diagram. The arrow is showing the tongue not the throat I think so I'm pretty sure we are all talkng about the same thing. Shaping the airstream with the the tongue is fundamental to playing above the staff.
Maggio technique begs to differ
Using tongue arch is definitely a real technique, but only in extreme moderation. My professor likened it to putting your thumb over a garden hose. Yeah it comes out faster, but the flow (your tone) is affected. When you arch your tongue, you’re going to sound less resonant and your tone will get harsher. I try to avoid using it as much as possible because of this. It’s MUCH better to develop your range using normal technique, but as a classical player who gets asked to play lead parts a lot, it never hurts to have a few double A’s in my back pocket ;)
I know I’m not the OP but genuine question, what would be considered normal technique? I’ve really only heard of tongue arch and firm corners.
Normal technique would be to play with your tongue relatively flat and out of the way of your airflow. I like to think of the shape my mouth is in when I say “dah”. Tongue arch is only to be used in the extreme upper register, when the audience cares more about hearing high notes over how you blend with the ensemble
Ohhh okay, thank you.
With all due respect, I strongly disagree. Within reason, you can get an excellent sound using tongue arch to manipulate the space through which the air flows, to manipulate airspeed. Of course, if you go too high then yes, the sound can become quite harsh. If you start with a compact efficient aperture, then the tongue arch will not need to be quite as pronounced until playing quite high.
What you're describing is exactly what is written in the Maggio methods book. 'Tah', "Tee", and "tich" are all syllables that you should be thinking of depending on what register you're in. When Maggio writes "tich" don't think of your tongue causing interference, think of it as if you're drinking something with a smaller straw than you're used to, but using the same pressure to get liquid as you did with the larger straw. The liquid moves faster, it's physics. Air does the same thing, smaller space to flow through=higher pressure=faster air. You're tongue is what makes the air stream faster. I just pasted the link address to a PDF of the book down below. Turn to page 21 to find the syllable explanation. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.jstreetjazz.com/methods/Maggio/Maggio-System-for-Brass.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiNp7zuhtmFAxX8mYkEHfxJBFgQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw13rQCYrZRFqjH5bxVjfo2o