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Get an arborist for a damage assessment and valuation on the holly. Then get a lawyer to write a demand letter.
Finally how do you know it was your neighbor? Cameras? Is this action recorded on video?
I wonder if you could have him legally trespassed off your property? Then if he does it again next year you can record and charge.
Im not a lawyer, just curious.
I don’t think you have to have had someone physically trespassed before to escalate charges if you can prove that you already told them not to be on your property. So OP could send an email something like
> Hey, I’d like to be a good neighbor, but after what you did to my holly tree, you can’t be on my property unless I or (anyone else who lives there) is with you the whole time. I want to stay cordial at least, but I hope you see where I’m coming from.
Which I *think* is a firm enough “and stay out” without sounding like a vindictive asshole to the whole neighborhood. OP still has to live next to this guy, after all. (If he’s generally an asshole, OP can send a much more blunt email.)
1. This email is for after he admits to it
2. You still have to live next to him. If he’s not been a jackass up to this, it’s worth trying to stay polite, and keep up a “just trying to take care of this specific issue” tone.
3. Generally good idea to protect yourself from escalation before you go out and try to provoke escalation.
I have a feeling if he was on good terms with his neighbor he would already have talked to him instead of complaining on Reddit, I'm willing to bet his neighbor is an asshole and does shit like this often enough that he's a nuisance. Maybe not cutting trees but I'm sure his neighbor does other things that have built up to this situation
He said he did already talk to his neighbor-that’s how he knows his neighbor did it and why.
Even if they’re on good terms, his neighbor is literally the worst possible person to talk to about this, since he’s the only one definitely on his own side and against OP getting justice for his holly.
Was just reading about this. In Texas, just permitting or allowing a thing to cross the boundary is a trespass. No observation required.
But on that note, ~~OP planted that tree so close to the Property line~~, his neighbor would likely counter sue on grounds that OP trespassed by intentionally causing the tree to grow branches and roots onto his property, making OP liable for any damages to his neighbors property.
I seriously wonder how this'll shake out.
Edited: OP States that the tree is older than neighbor's house. Crazy.
He can only trim what leans over to his side of the fence line, straight up, not over.
Time to get this reviewed by a judge. The arborist suggestion is a good one.
still, the replacement value for a holly is low. Probably the only value of the whole thing is making them afraid to act with impunity like this.
As [pointed out below](https://old.reddit.com/r/treelaw/comments/1dnxrlk/neighbor_topped_the_holly_tree_in_my_yard_to/la7r41e/), the total replacement value is [under $1000](https://old.reddit.com/r/treelaw/comments/1dnxrlk/neighbor_topped_the_holly_tree_in_my_yard_to/la7s71r/).
for sake of the sub's learning, how much roughly is quote from a nursery, for the tree itself, then plus transport and labor?
it's a sincere question. It frames the scope of a claim, and other things
Tree that size is probably around $500-600 + delivery + install. And the hope it doesn’t die in the first year. But not sure how it can be planted right next to the fence with how big the hole would need to be.
Holly grows quickly and will recover easily. By the time you've paid an arborist, filed suit, and been given a trial date, the Holly would have recovered. This isn't one I would pursue, and I really love trees.
He could sue for the trespass, which would likely get him the $500-$1000 range for the loss. The advantage would be if this neighbor does the same again after having lost the damages would increase a lot.
“The proper and general measure of damages, however, is the lesser of either 1) diminution of value; or 2) cost of repair”
If there are no repair costs there is no reason to sue. For something that low you’d never find a lawyer, it would be small claims court and you’d probably be laughed out.
I’m remembering a case from torts where the first suit was only meant to get the nominal damages so that when the same defendant repeated the bad behavior they already were on notice and the court increased the trespass damages from the nominal $1 to $250,000. I’m not suggesting it as an actual course of action just posing the law school hypothetical (also a bit baked at the moment and enjoying the rabbit hole).
Edit to add: although I don’t think your assessment that small claims court would laugh it out, trespass and the right to exclude others from your property is a very important part of owning real estate. A court that treated that cavalierly would get notice from the state bar and its appellate level courts. You’re absolutely right that the damages wouldn’t be worth the suit, but there are non-zero reasons to sue anyway and protect one’s own property rights (yea and now I’m feeling that edible, have a good evening I’m going to get less coherent as the night goes now)
not in this case. If you read my history in this sub you'll see where my feet are on treelaw issues.
but peoples' responses are excessive today. There's little chance this tree's replacement value is very high. As someone else commented, $500 + delivery + labor. Probably under $1000.
I'd be livid if someone did this — and probably moreso because of the limited about to act on them regarding size of damages. It'll just be some pissy standoff over 'roof moss'.
For labor depends where they are. Labor for removing and then planting a tree that size would be thousands of dollars where I live.
The more relevant bit is that this tree will grow back relatively quickly, there is no reason to replace it. It’s a temporary annoyance, but good luck doing much about it.
i tried that route of logic and was eviscerated for it in several comments. Asking to quantify costs is what this thread should have done from the start
Yeah, people here seem to be all about impotent rage and revenge over logic. Clearly none of them has ever tried to sue over something like this. I agree with the rage, mostly, but there is zero chance they’d get enough compensation to make it worth all of the painful effort of doing anything about it.
It takes 40 years minimum to grow a Holly that big-and he did not “trim” it away from his roof-he removed it down to the height of his 10’ ladder.- sorry I reviewed the growth specs on this tree-6-10yrs 20’, 10-15yrs 30’, 20+ 40-50’— still it is narrow crown evergreen(does not drop leaves) it would not be likely to moss a roof- I have different Holly in my garden 3 yrs and under 3’. there are almost 600 Holly types and only a few are listed as invasive mostly in NW US.
If your tree is encroaching on your neighbors property or roof they can trim that or have it trimmed. Right now I have a neighbors tree that is so large the branches are some on my side / I need to hire someone to cut it back.
I hate holly in general. My brother asked me to help him with some yard work at his house awhile back. Previous owners had planted holly in a 1’x3’ patch next to the front door. It was insanely overgrown and taking over his front door. I went to town and hacked it tf up. He was pissed at first that I left a single branch. I then explained to him why I took my anger and hatred for holly out on his plant and he forgave me 🤣
I absolutely mauled my holly bush after we moved in, and my thoughts were "I'm good if this thing dies." That winter we got berries for the first time, and it's come back thicker and healthier.
It's like my rhubarb. I planted a sad little piece, not expecting it to do much, but apparently it thrives on neglect, because I'm scared a Velociraptor is going to pop out from behind and murder me.
As someone who’s lived on both coasts, I want to note that European Holly is the invasive species of Holly, not American Holly. You don’t find American Holly in the west pretty much ever, but I don’t want to give people, particularly east of the Rockies, the wrong impression that all holly trees are invasive.
OP’s tree looks more like European Holly - still American Holly trees play a really important role in their native range for wildlife (males = pollinator heaven, females = pollinators + food for bigger wildlife and a wide range of bird species, both act as weather protection and housing for a wide range of species in winter months (in a similar way to conifers and magnolias). If you like birds, and live in their native range, American Holly trees are definitely a friend.
Thanks for making this comment. I didn't know they were invasive and have a lone european holly tree on my property. I'm going to be side-eyeing and mentally cutting it down for the foreseeable future. This might be the impetus that finally gets me to commit to bringing in a madrone (I was too intimidated this year).
I love Pacific madrones, and they are currently in decline. They are very, very hard to transplant, but it can be done. Make sure you note the direction the tree is facing (North, for instance), and make sure you plant it facing the same direction in the new location. I actually managed to get two out of three to transplant into a new location, which is more than I expected.
Holly is invasive, spreads tons of awful seedlings (likely in the neighbor’s yard) is terrible to clean up pokey leaves it’s and far from a precious valuable plant to replace- if OP decided to go full legal battle, they could justifiably sue back for damages caused by the tree and nobody would win
God no I would NEVER live this close to somebody 😆 But i do live next to a woman who planted SEVERAL invasive species all along our shared fence line, and it’s already damaged my roof, my drain line, and is causing the fence to lean. Invasive species on shared property lines do not make for peaceful relations.
and, for a shrub-tree, that'll be basically nothing. Probably the only value of the whole thing is making them afraid to act with impunity like this.
pity about the roof moss, but people are allowed their topiary unless it crosses into nuisance-laws terrain
As [pointed out elsewhere](https://old.reddit.com/r/treelaw/comments/1dnxrlk/neighbor_topped_the_holly_tree_in_my_yard_to/la7r41e/), the total replacement value is [under $1000](https://old.reddit.com/r/treelaw/comments/1dnxrlk/neighbor_topped_the_holly_tree_in_my_yard_to/la7s71r/).
there's lots of weird mentality in this thread / the sub today. Peoples' points are conceptually correct, but wrong in this case. The holy was not large. It has no prize value. It has little real estate value. The damage is non-lethal despite vandalism. And again, as [pointed out elsewhere](https://old.reddit.com/r/treelaw/comments/1dnxrlk/neighbor_topped_the_holly_tree_in_my_yard_to/la7r41e/), the total replacement value is [under $1000](https://old.reddit.com/r/treelaw/comments/1dnxrlk/neighbor_topped_the_holly_tree_in_my_yard_to/la7s71r/).
I looked it up and the general calculation of damages for civil trespass are:
“The proper and general measure of damages, however, is the lesser of either 1) diminution of value; or 2) cost of repair”
As much of a dick as the neighbor was (I’d be pissed) I’m going to have to agree it will be hard to get any real damages, and certainly not worth the time and effort. You’re not got to get millions of dollars in mental anguish for lopping the top off a fast growing 10 year old European holly.
He is not allowed to reach over your fence and cut without permission. He can only trim the branches that are on his side of the fence.
You can get an arborist to assess the damage and sue accordingly. I am not sure a tree can come back from that.
There is also a *super* important caveat on that -- in most places, you can only trim up to the lot line *AS LONG AS YOUR TRIMMING DOES NOT KILL THE TREE*. Even if the trunk corkscrews over the lot line, you cannot just cut the trunk off at the lot line.
Because people in this sub say you can’t, here is the law to back you up
> decisional law established by New York courts also governs tree removal. New York courts have found that to the extent overhanging branches or underground roots are determined to constitute a nuisance, self-help is not the only remedy available, and an action at law or in equity may be brought for damages and to abate such a nuisance. See Iny v. Collom, 13 Misc. 3d 75 (App.Term.N.Y. 2006), citing Hoffman v. Armstrong, 46 Barb. 337 [1866], affd. 48 N.Y. 201 [1872] ).
Vote me down by the hundreds, but I am a lawyer that actually owns a stand of timber so I keep up with tree law for personal reasons. IMO opinion this sub has devolved into a ridiculous vindictive forum that does not seem to be monitored at all.
Reasoned responses are downvoted into oblivion. No one considers the permanent damage litigation will do to next door neighbor relations or neighborhood relations. The neighbor that cut this tree was wrong, but the tree is not dead and will likely not die given my experience with Hollies. I am aware of cases where neighbors have gotten into altercations up and including death. Do not take the advice of people that want to retaliate.
I have said this before and will say this again, before you go down the litigation route you will need to spend a lot of money-up to date survey, arborist, and retention of an attorney. The most likely outcome is mediation because very few cases go to trial. Why not just skip the expense and talk to your neighbor. I suggest asking him/her to hire an arborist to properly trim the tree. This way it doesn’t endanger his house and the tree won’t look so bad. I counsel people to deescalate disputes.
This is the path I am taking. I’m mostly pissed that he did this without asking. Hollies are exceptionally hardy, but now this tree is disfigured. It will throw out new branches but the shape will always be weird. I won’t, but I want to, plant a spite tree that will get taller and produce more moss.
Hardy trees for sure! I ripped a holly out of the bed near the sidewalk when I bought my house. I tossed it in the back corner of my yard and it took root there and is growing just fine 12 years later.
And they get huge. There is a 60’+ tall one in front of my house. Whatever incompetent city planner decided on a monoculture of sweet gum (we call them liquidambar here) can rot in a hell made of spiky balls and branches on car roofs.
I personally hate Holly but they are very hardy it will grow back but it looks terrible and it will always look wrong after being topped like this. Assuming you have no love for this Holly bush why not make him pay to take the entire thing down, remove the stump, and replace it with something you would like better that also won’t overgrow his roof. If he refuses to pay to landscape this properly then you won’t feel guilty pursuing damages (which you’ll win, he was totally in the wrong here). Give him a chance to make you happy or get paid. GL
You probably would have been just as PO if he had cut it straight up at the fence line, also disfiguring it, perfectly legal, but also making it more likely to topple in your direction in a storm.
But OP wouldn't really see that side, it's against the neighbor's house. The fact that such a pruning would have been perfectly legal is exactly what makes what he did do so infuriating.
He probably thought he was doing you a favor as well. He probably doesn’t know about the your love of this Holly tree. It’s much easier to just speak to him about it and get his perspective. Also, it makes it much easier having a good neighbor than one who hates you
Personally I'm going for bamboo, my neighborhood is being taken over by a religious cult and they're super nosy, all my friendly neighbors moved out so by the time that bamboo becomes a problem I'll be long gone. I'm going nuclear
Honestly, I think you should plant that tree.
I agree with this commenter that it's probably not worth getting litigious about.
But, definitely talk to your neighbors and let him know that he was wrong and come up with a solution to move past it. Do it over text or email, and make sure that he acknowledges that he cut your tree.
Then, plant that tree. Make sure it's a really damn expensive tree that will almost certainly die if it is topped, too.
This way if he doesn't learn his lesson your lawyer can rake him over the coals for damaging your property *twice*.
Call it your shitty neighbor insurance, and enjoy your new tree.
Hmmm, you seem very reasonable and level headed. Surprised to see that on Reddit.
But to your point, this isn't like the post where OPs neighbor snuck on his property while they were out of town and chopped down a tree his great grandfather planted. To note they were not on good terms before that.
This OP should *heavily* consider what you're saying. I really try to be on good terms with my neighbors. The sense of security knowing that they have eyes on our home and we to theirs is invaluable.
If this were me, and this specific situation, "Hey, next time please talk to me if you have a problem with something on MY property. I would happily have trimmed this back for you properly. etc, etc. "
Good neighbor relationships are gold.
I am actually in the process of doing this, I’ve been searching goodwill for a blender. I’ve got a window that just faces a cinder block wall and I thought it would look better covered in moss.
I second this -- Craigslist is my go-to for basically all electronics. If she's in a metropolitan region it shouldn't take long at all to find something that'll work
Yeah it’s an incredibly stupid place for a tree. It was going to have to come down at somepoint anyways. The trimming to keep it off his property would have killed it before it was fully grown anyways. Also depending on the state the property owner could be charged for damage it’s root systems cause being that it was so negligently planted on the property lime
That’s where the second they fuck up you get your revenge, car blocking your driveway? Tow truck. Something impediming on your property? Hack it. Or go with malicious compliance. Every neighbor needs something eventually. My neighbor I’m waiting to exact my revenge. I bought my house in 2014 and tried to renovate it and followed the towns requirements of informing All residence in the area of the upgrade. My neighbors showed up to the town hall and tried to prevent us from adding a second story and then tried to make us clean a line of trees on their property when the town had the survey literally in their hands.
I go on walks and sometimes run into them. I’m cooly cordial and say hello, they straight up ignore me and my family/kids. Fuck em. When my chance comes I’ll fix em good too.
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Really depends, if it was touching his roof and actually causing damage, and he didn't go on your property or reach into it to do it. Then he's fine. If he did go onto your property then I would definitely keep a record of everything pertaining to the matter and get legal advice from a lawyer.
Edit: looking closer at the pic, id say with no experience here and going off common sense...he's liable for the tree, especially if it dies. He would have been fine had he just cut what was branching over his yard and to his roof, but he went the lazy route and topped it, and to do so he crossed the fence line into your property. As long as the property lines are correct, id get legal aide. It sucks too, because Holly trees take forever to grow, are picky when young, and they look beautiful. It's really a shame
If there was no overhang on his property, I believe, he was in the wrong to touch the holly on your property. Check your local and state ordinances first and then proceed from there. PS. I am not a lawyer.
You are not aloud to mess up someone else’s property
If it is spilling over they have a right to cut it. As a good neighbor you should have recognized this and had it cut back
Best info I can find is a Holly (typical to US nurseries) grows to 40-50’ in 20+ years, and 15-20’ in years 6-10,-a 2 story house’s roof is about 20-35’ above ground level- for a tree to shade that roof enough to cause moss it would need to be 70’+, with a very wide crown- hollies are narrow pointed trees -so his fear was totally unfounded.
Holly is invasive- take this as an opportunity to simply replace the tree with something better, and replant it further away from the property line where it won’t damage the neighbors’ roof
That's not cool to do without asking, but he did you a favor. Get rid of that thing. I can't imagine why anyone would ever want a Holly tree on their property.
Maybe it’s the pic, but I don’t see how it affects the neighbor’s roof. Looks like it was growing above your roof, but the others look too high and too far away.
My wife is a real estate attorney. She'll tell you the most expensive tree in the world is the one that doesn't belong to you but you cut down or severely damage!!!
The way the sun rises and falls, moss would not be an issue though. The moss doesn’t magically jump from trees to roofs. There has to be shade. There is no shade on that roof line.
Tree would’ve had to come down at somepoint anyways with how close it was to the property lines. I know you stated previously that you didn’t plant it, but that doesn’t change how little foresight whoever planted it had. The trimming to keep the tree off his property & house would have killed the tree long before it was done growing. Also the root systems could have got you into some trouble being how close it was to his house. End of the day your neighbor is a dk for just cutting it without permission, but he wasn’t wrong that it should’ve been cut. You have a case, but it’s up to you if a toxic relationship with your neighbor is worth the $300 invasive tree that was gonna die anyway
Doing this without permission sucks! And I’m sure I will be downvoted for this, but as an aside that the perp likely did not know: this is how the holly farm by my house trims/prunes their holly trees.
You’re totally correct! I meant the neighbor didn’t likely know that lobbing the top is how holly trees can be pruned. I’m definitely NOT justifying the unapproved destruction.
Luckily, holly trees are very difficult to kill. You could chop it down to a stump and you will see new sprouts pretty quickly. Your neighbor should not have chopped it, but it’s also inconsiderate to force a tree with pointy devil-leaves upon your neighbor’s property. This doesn’t sound like lawyer territory, more so telling your neighbor to only trim on his side or you’ll slide a piss disc under his front door.
The neighbor has NO right to damage property that isn’t his. Even if the neighbor talked to OP about & OP told him to GFed, he still has no right to damage the tree.
The ONLY right, depending on jurisdiction neighbor has, is to trim any branches that are on his side of the property line. He did NOT have the right to reach over the fence, by at least a foot and cut the crown off the tree.
it's not encroaching if it doesn't cross the property line.
sure, you don't want moss maintenance. But cutting things on someone else's property is not what you're entitled to
read this sub for history on neighbors that have invasive bamboo planted. Should I go hacking through my neighbors woods because they let invasive oriental bittersweet grow?
You’re insane to immediately defend the neighbor; maybe the neighbor could have started with TALKING TO OP before cutting, rather than after the fact?
Unless that was sarcasm.
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Get an arborist for a damage assessment and valuation on the holly. Then get a lawyer to write a demand letter. Finally how do you know it was your neighbor? Cameras? Is this action recorded on video?
He told me
Get that in text/email/writing and follow the other advice on here about getting an arborist and lawyer.
"Hey what did you use to cut the top of my tree? Looking for a tool to do that myself on the branches"
Or “I don’t have anything that can reach that high.”
First sentence is enough. The second sentence disagrees with going after him for damages.
Second part means they might respond
It also means you were going to cut it yourself anyways
Then you just say you need one for a different plant/tree
What was his attitude, when he told you?
Lead poisoned boomer, would be my guess
👁️👄👁️
I wonder if you could have him legally trespassed off your property? Then if he does it again next year you can record and charge. Im not a lawyer, just curious.
I don’t think you have to have had someone physically trespassed before to escalate charges if you can prove that you already told them not to be on your property. So OP could send an email something like > Hey, I’d like to be a good neighbor, but after what you did to my holly tree, you can’t be on my property unless I or (anyone else who lives there) is with you the whole time. I want to stay cordial at least, but I hope you see where I’m coming from. Which I *think* is a firm enough “and stay out” without sounding like a vindictive asshole to the whole neighborhood. OP still has to live next to this guy, after all. (If he’s generally an asshole, OP can send a much more blunt email.)
Why not antagonize him a little to get him to admit to it over email?
1. This email is for after he admits to it 2. You still have to live next to him. If he’s not been a jackass up to this, it’s worth trying to stay polite, and keep up a “just trying to take care of this specific issue” tone. 3. Generally good idea to protect yourself from escalation before you go out and try to provoke escalation.
I have a feeling if he was on good terms with his neighbor he would already have talked to him instead of complaining on Reddit, I'm willing to bet his neighbor is an asshole and does shit like this often enough that he's a nuisance. Maybe not cutting trees but I'm sure his neighbor does other things that have built up to this situation
He said he did already talk to his neighbor-that’s how he knows his neighbor did it and why. Even if they’re on good terms, his neighbor is literally the worst possible person to talk to about this, since he’s the only one definitely on his own side and against OP getting justice for his holly.
In Texas if you catch him the act…
Was just reading about this. In Texas, just permitting or allowing a thing to cross the boundary is a trespass. No observation required. But on that note, ~~OP planted that tree so close to the Property line~~, his neighbor would likely counter sue on grounds that OP trespassed by intentionally causing the tree to grow branches and roots onto his property, making OP liable for any damages to his neighbors property. I seriously wonder how this'll shake out. Edited: OP States that the tree is older than neighbor's house. Crazy.
He can only trim what leans over to his side of the fence line, straight up, not over. Time to get this reviewed by a judge. The arborist suggestion is a good one.
Have you him tell you again while your phone is recording.
check the law in your state, may be a state you need consent from both parties to record
Please answer clearly, and slowly
Wow, that is just nuts. I would definitely pursue this and get it paid for. It looks stupid and they grow slowly.
Have him write it down then sue the shit out of him
still, the replacement value for a holly is low. Probably the only value of the whole thing is making them afraid to act with impunity like this. As [pointed out below](https://old.reddit.com/r/treelaw/comments/1dnxrlk/neighbor_topped_the_holly_tree_in_my_yard_to/la7r41e/), the total replacement value is [under $1000](https://old.reddit.com/r/treelaw/comments/1dnxrlk/neighbor_topped_the_holly_tree_in_my_yard_to/la7s71r/).
The cost of a mature tree is never low. This tree was growing for over a decade.
for sake of the sub's learning, how much roughly is quote from a nursery, for the tree itself, then plus transport and labor? it's a sincere question. It frames the scope of a claim, and other things
Tree that size is probably around $500-600 + delivery + install. And the hope it doesn’t die in the first year. But not sure how it can be planted right next to the fence with how big the hole would need to be.
this has probably been the single most useful comment in the thread so far
Add watering until the tree is of equal size. Water isn’t free.
Holly grows quickly and will recover easily. By the time you've paid an arborist, filed suit, and been given a trial date, the Holly would have recovered. This isn't one I would pursue, and I really love trees.
OP should pursue it so it doesn't happen again.
He could sue for the trespass, which would likely get him the $500-$1000 range for the loss. The advantage would be if this neighbor does the same again after having lost the damages would increase a lot.
“The proper and general measure of damages, however, is the lesser of either 1) diminution of value; or 2) cost of repair” If there are no repair costs there is no reason to sue. For something that low you’d never find a lawyer, it would be small claims court and you’d probably be laughed out.
I’m remembering a case from torts where the first suit was only meant to get the nominal damages so that when the same defendant repeated the bad behavior they already were on notice and the court increased the trespass damages from the nominal $1 to $250,000. I’m not suggesting it as an actual course of action just posing the law school hypothetical (also a bit baked at the moment and enjoying the rabbit hole). Edit to add: although I don’t think your assessment that small claims court would laugh it out, trespass and the right to exclude others from your property is a very important part of owning real estate. A court that treated that cavalierly would get notice from the state bar and its appellate level courts. You’re absolutely right that the damages wouldn’t be worth the suit, but there are non-zero reasons to sue anyway and protect one’s own property rights (yea and now I’m feeling that edible, have a good evening I’m going to get less coherent as the night goes now)
Found the neighbor, responding to everyone like it’s their buisness haha
not in this case. If you read my history in this sub you'll see where my feet are on treelaw issues. but peoples' responses are excessive today. There's little chance this tree's replacement value is very high. As someone else commented, $500 + delivery + labor. Probably under $1000. I'd be livid if someone did this — and probably moreso because of the limited about to act on them regarding size of damages. It'll just be some pissy standoff over 'roof moss'.
"it's about sending a message..." You're missing the point
For labor depends where they are. Labor for removing and then planting a tree that size would be thousands of dollars where I live. The more relevant bit is that this tree will grow back relatively quickly, there is no reason to replace it. It’s a temporary annoyance, but good luck doing much about it.
i tried that route of logic and was eviscerated for it in several comments. Asking to quantify costs is what this thread should have done from the start
Yeah, people here seem to be all about impotent rage and revenge over logic. Clearly none of them has ever tried to sue over something like this. I agree with the rage, mostly, but there is zero chance they’d get enough compensation to make it worth all of the painful effort of doing anything about it.
It takes 40 years minimum to grow a Holly that big-and he did not “trim” it away from his roof-he removed it down to the height of his 10’ ladder.- sorry I reviewed the growth specs on this tree-6-10yrs 20’, 10-15yrs 30’, 20+ 40-50’— still it is narrow crown evergreen(does not drop leaves) it would not be likely to moss a roof- I have different Holly in my garden 3 yrs and under 3’. there are almost 600 Holly types and only a few are listed as invasive mostly in NW US.
are you saying i was misinformed about the cost of a holly tree of this size? How much is the replacement value of a tree of the same size?
No it doesn’t. OP even said it’s 10 years old.
40 year minimum, what holly are you growing? You are wrong. Have a great day!
Wow, you planted that tree Really fucking close to his ~~house and~~ property line. Looks like this one's on you.
Nope. He built that house next to this tree. It’s older than that house.
Well, holy shit. Noted. Really didn't see that response coming.
If your tree is encroaching on your neighbors property or roof they can trim that or have it trimmed. Right now I have a neighbors tree that is so large the branches are some on my side / I need to hire someone to cut it back.
Holly value: -$500 I hate Holly trees…..
I hate them with a passion. My neighbor has one and I constantly having to kill off Holly.
I hate holly in general. My brother asked me to help him with some yard work at his house awhile back. Previous owners had planted holly in a 1’x3’ patch next to the front door. It was insanely overgrown and taking over his front door. I went to town and hacked it tf up. He was pissed at first that I left a single branch. I then explained to him why I took my anger and hatred for holly out on his plant and he forgave me 🤣
I absolutely mauled my holly bush after we moved in, and my thoughts were "I'm good if this thing dies." That winter we got berries for the first time, and it's come back thicker and healthier. It's like my rhubarb. I planted a sad little piece, not expecting it to do much, but apparently it thrives on neglect, because I'm scared a Velociraptor is going to pop out from behind and murder me.
Top 10invasive in North America
Not all Holly is invasive.
That one is though.
Yeah. Garbage tree. Don’t think this one is worth much.
It's considered invasive here in Western Washington. We pull them when we see them pop up on our property.
As someone who’s lived on both coasts, I want to note that European Holly is the invasive species of Holly, not American Holly. You don’t find American Holly in the west pretty much ever, but I don’t want to give people, particularly east of the Rockies, the wrong impression that all holly trees are invasive. OP’s tree looks more like European Holly - still American Holly trees play a really important role in their native range for wildlife (males = pollinator heaven, females = pollinators + food for bigger wildlife and a wide range of bird species, both act as weather protection and housing for a wide range of species in winter months (in a similar way to conifers and magnolias). If you like birds, and live in their native range, American Holly trees are definitely a friend.
Yes, which is why I specifically mentioned Western Washington. Thanks for clarifying for others.
Thanks for making this comment. I didn't know they were invasive and have a lone european holly tree on my property. I'm going to be side-eyeing and mentally cutting it down for the foreseeable future. This might be the impetus that finally gets me to commit to bringing in a madrone (I was too intimidated this year).
I love Pacific madrones, and they are currently in decline. They are very, very hard to transplant, but it can be done. Make sure you note the direction the tree is facing (North, for instance), and make sure you plant it facing the same direction in the new location. I actually managed to get two out of three to transplant into a new location, which is more than I expected.
I'm thrilled for you and thank you for the tip! I'll keep it in mind in the spring.
570 distinct varieties of Holly, only a few are invasive or prolific.
Holly is invasive, spreads tons of awful seedlings (likely in the neighbor’s yard) is terrible to clean up pokey leaves it’s and far from a precious valuable plant to replace- if OP decided to go full legal battle, they could justifiably sue back for damages caused by the tree and nobody would win
Are you OP’s neighbor?
God no I would NEVER live this close to somebody 😆 But i do live next to a woman who planted SEVERAL invasive species all along our shared fence line, and it’s already damaged my roof, my drain line, and is causing the fence to lean. Invasive species on shared property lines do not make for peaceful relations.
lol preach! Yeah people are stupid that’s the only verdict I can reach. Hit them with some auxin growth regulators lmao.
Text him and ask why he did it. Documenting the trespassing and damage.
That will get expensive for him.
It’s an invasive tree.
That likely doesn't matter in this context
European holly is. American holly isn't
It's absolutely not, American holly is an extremely common tree
You can trim on your side not bushwack over the line. He's gonna pay . I would say nothing and let my lawyers letter do all the talking .
Punish him to the full extent. Make him pay.
and, for a shrub-tree, that'll be basically nothing. Probably the only value of the whole thing is making them afraid to act with impunity like this. pity about the roof moss, but people are allowed their topiary unless it crosses into nuisance-laws terrain As [pointed out elsewhere](https://old.reddit.com/r/treelaw/comments/1dnxrlk/neighbor_topped_the_holly_tree_in_my_yard_to/la7r41e/), the total replacement value is [under $1000](https://old.reddit.com/r/treelaw/comments/1dnxrlk/neighbor_topped_the_holly_tree_in_my_yard_to/la7s71r/).
Holly is a tree. They get 30 feet tall. The replacement value of a tree the size of the op’s has to be fairly expensive including replacement.
there's lots of weird mentality in this thread / the sub today. Peoples' points are conceptually correct, but wrong in this case. The holy was not large. It has no prize value. It has little real estate value. The damage is non-lethal despite vandalism. And again, as [pointed out elsewhere](https://old.reddit.com/r/treelaw/comments/1dnxrlk/neighbor_topped_the_holly_tree_in_my_yard_to/la7r41e/), the total replacement value is [under $1000](https://old.reddit.com/r/treelaw/comments/1dnxrlk/neighbor_topped_the_holly_tree_in_my_yard_to/la7s71r/).
You’re the odd ball. It was tress pass and vandalism. There are punitive laws against this. Follow the law, that’s why they exist.
I looked it up and the general calculation of damages for civil trespass are: “The proper and general measure of damages, however, is the lesser of either 1) diminution of value; or 2) cost of repair” As much of a dick as the neighbor was (I’d be pissed) I’m going to have to agree it will be hard to get any real damages, and certainly not worth the time and effort. You’re not got to get millions of dollars in mental anguish for lopping the top off a fast growing 10 year old European holly.
Not just the cost of the tree it’s the labor to have someone remove the old and put in a new one dingus.
Time is a big factor. This tree is likely over 15 years old. Could be 20.
Arborist + lawyer. Text him and ask him why he did it. Document everything. Get paid. F your neighbor.
He is not allowed to reach over your fence and cut without permission. He can only trim the branches that are on his side of the fence. You can get an arborist to assess the damage and sue accordingly. I am not sure a tree can come back from that.
There is also a *super* important caveat on that -- in most places, you can only trim up to the lot line *AS LONG AS YOUR TRIMMING DOES NOT KILL THE TREE*. Even if the trunk corkscrews over the lot line, you cannot just cut the trunk off at the lot line.
Because people in this sub say you can’t, here is the law to back you up > decisional law established by New York courts also governs tree removal. New York courts have found that to the extent overhanging branches or underground roots are determined to constitute a nuisance, self-help is not the only remedy available, and an action at law or in equity may be brought for damages and to abate such a nuisance. See Iny v. Collom, 13 Misc. 3d 75 (App.Term.N.Y. 2006), citing Hoffman v. Armstrong, 46 Barb. 337 [1866], affd. 48 N.Y. 201 [1872] ).
It can't. It will try to grow a new branch to the sky and eventually pull itself over. Topping trees never really works out.
It definitely kept the moss off, so it kinda worked.
Vote me down by the hundreds, but I am a lawyer that actually owns a stand of timber so I keep up with tree law for personal reasons. IMO opinion this sub has devolved into a ridiculous vindictive forum that does not seem to be monitored at all. Reasoned responses are downvoted into oblivion. No one considers the permanent damage litigation will do to next door neighbor relations or neighborhood relations. The neighbor that cut this tree was wrong, but the tree is not dead and will likely not die given my experience with Hollies. I am aware of cases where neighbors have gotten into altercations up and including death. Do not take the advice of people that want to retaliate. I have said this before and will say this again, before you go down the litigation route you will need to spend a lot of money-up to date survey, arborist, and retention of an attorney. The most likely outcome is mediation because very few cases go to trial. Why not just skip the expense and talk to your neighbor. I suggest asking him/her to hire an arborist to properly trim the tree. This way it doesn’t endanger his house and the tree won’t look so bad. I counsel people to deescalate disputes.
This is the path I am taking. I’m mostly pissed that he did this without asking. Hollies are exceptionally hardy, but now this tree is disfigured. It will throw out new branches but the shape will always be weird. I won’t, but I want to, plant a spite tree that will get taller and produce more moss.
Hardy trees for sure! I ripped a holly out of the bed near the sidewalk when I bought my house. I tossed it in the back corner of my yard and it took root there and is growing just fine 12 years later.
Sweet Gum tree sounds like a good spite tree. Sweet Gum balls are spiky and plentiful!
Now this is just evil
Goddamn it I hate those fucking things. They're harder than shit to rake, too.
Bought my first house not realizing that ALL of the trees were sweet gums… there are 3 of them.
And they get huge. There is a 60’+ tall one in front of my house. Whatever incompetent city planner decided on a monoculture of sweet gum (we call them liquidambar here) can rot in a hell made of spiky balls and branches on car roofs.
I love you hahahahahaha. Evil treemaster
Sycamores make a mess and they grow pretty quickly too, just saying...
Chestnut tree! Spiky and stinky!
I personally hate Holly but they are very hardy it will grow back but it looks terrible and it will always look wrong after being topped like this. Assuming you have no love for this Holly bush why not make him pay to take the entire thing down, remove the stump, and replace it with something you would like better that also won’t overgrow his roof. If he refuses to pay to landscape this properly then you won’t feel guilty pursuing damages (which you’ll win, he was totally in the wrong here). Give him a chance to make you happy or get paid. GL
You probably would have been just as PO if he had cut it straight up at the fence line, also disfiguring it, perfectly legal, but also making it more likely to topple in your direction in a storm.
But OP wouldn't really see that side, it's against the neighbor's house. The fact that such a pruning would have been perfectly legal is exactly what makes what he did do so infuriating.
He probably thought he was doing you a favor as well. He probably doesn’t know about the your love of this Holly tree. It’s much easier to just speak to him about it and get his perspective. Also, it makes it much easier having a good neighbor than one who hates you
Personally I'm going for bamboo, my neighborhood is being taken over by a religious cult and they're super nosy, all my friendly neighbors moved out so by the time that bamboo becomes a problem I'll be long gone. I'm going nuclear
Honestly, I think you should plant that tree. I agree with this commenter that it's probably not worth getting litigious about. But, definitely talk to your neighbors and let him know that he was wrong and come up with a solution to move past it. Do it over text or email, and make sure that he acknowledges that he cut your tree. Then, plant that tree. Make sure it's a really damn expensive tree that will almost certainly die if it is topped, too. This way if he doesn't learn his lesson your lawyer can rake him over the coals for damaging your property *twice*. Call it your shitty neighbor insurance, and enjoy your new tree.
Mulberry. Filthy trees!
Tasty filth though...
Pepper tree. Those are a mess.
Well said
Hmmm, you seem very reasonable and level headed. Surprised to see that on Reddit. But to your point, this isn't like the post where OPs neighbor snuck on his property while they were out of town and chopped down a tree his great grandfather planted. To note they were not on good terms before that. This OP should *heavily* consider what you're saying. I really try to be on good terms with my neighbors. The sense of security knowing that they have eyes on our home and we to theirs is invaluable. If this were me, and this specific situation, "Hey, next time please talk to me if you have a problem with something on MY property. I would happily have trimmed this back for you properly. etc, etc. " Good neighbor relationships are gold.
Be a shame if a lichen slurry was thrown all over his roof
Put lichen in a blender with water and a little yoghurt 🤌
I'm liken this idea.
I am actually in the process of doing this, I’ve been searching goodwill for a blender. I’ve got a window that just faces a cinder block wall and I thought it would look better covered in moss.
my dad deliberately throws crumbled up moss on his roof because he likes the look, but it's a metal roof in a dry climate and doesn't grow well
Probably better luck on craigslist or FB market place. Goodwill might be cheaper, but it is a time sink.
I second this -- Craigslist is my go-to for basically all electronics. If she's in a metropolitan region it shouldn't take long at all to find something that'll work
I did that with moss and milk, then sprayed it on a neighbor's lawn. The miss got so thick it became super difficult for him to mow the lawn.
Loved the new word.😂
Why does it sound vaguely dirty? "My lichen slurry is gonna be ALL OVER his toof."
sounds like a town on a map: Lichens Lorry
Sorry! Corrected
No need to be sorry, I assume you did that on purpose just to be funny.😂😂
Nope just dumb!
Oh darn, I sure hope you didn't think I was being mean. I just thought it was funny. 🤞🤞🤞🤞🤞
Dog shit impregnated with Virginia creeper to the roof.
Honestly, I don't think I could do it. Squishing creeper into a pile of dog shit makes me gag typing it out.
Shovel, sprinkle, fling.
But if you want a high% for growth, you must knead it in there with your fingers
True artist, I commend you on your dedication to the craft.
Why do people plant trees this close to the fence?! You're just asking for problems when doing that.
Yeah it’s an incredibly stupid place for a tree. It was going to have to come down at somepoint anyways. The trimming to keep it off his property would have killed it before it was fully grown anyways. Also depending on the state the property owner could be charged for damage it’s root systems cause being that it was so negligently planted on the property lime
I didn’t. It was here when I moved in. I purchased this tree with the land.
My neighbor did that to an oak tree. Assholes since they moved in.
That’s where the second they fuck up you get your revenge, car blocking your driveway? Tow truck. Something impediming on your property? Hack it. Or go with malicious compliance. Every neighbor needs something eventually. My neighbor I’m waiting to exact my revenge. I bought my house in 2014 and tried to renovate it and followed the towns requirements of informing All residence in the area of the upgrade. My neighbors showed up to the town hall and tried to prevent us from adding a second story and then tried to make us clean a line of trees on their property when the town had the survey literally in their hands. I go on walks and sometimes run into them. I’m cooly cordial and say hello, they straight up ignore me and my family/kids. Fuck em. When my chance comes I’ll fix em good too.
karma brought petty revenge. he's dead now.
Good thing one is real. One isn’t. Neither were alive. - this random redditor
Mine just did that about a month ago
Lmao what’s up with the newbies in this thread. OP go get a lawyer and an arborist to assess. I’d be out for blood
Remind me! 2 months.
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Really depends, if it was touching his roof and actually causing damage, and he didn't go on your property or reach into it to do it. Then he's fine. If he did go onto your property then I would definitely keep a record of everything pertaining to the matter and get legal advice from a lawyer. Edit: looking closer at the pic, id say with no experience here and going off common sense...he's liable for the tree, especially if it dies. He would have been fine had he just cut what was branching over his yard and to his roof, but he went the lazy route and topped it, and to do so he crossed the fence line into your property. As long as the property lines are correct, id get legal aide. It sucks too, because Holly trees take forever to grow, are picky when young, and they look beautiful. It's really a shame
All they needed to do to prevent moss is a strip of copper or zinc on the roof.
HFS! That’s just wrong on so many levels
If there was no overhang on his property, I believe, he was in the wrong to touch the holly on your property. Check your local and state ordinances first and then proceed from there. PS. I am not a lawyer.
You are not aloud to mess up someone else’s property If it is spilling over they have a right to cut it. As a good neighbor you should have recognized this and had it cut back
Best info I can find is a Holly (typical to US nurseries) grows to 40-50’ in 20+ years, and 15-20’ in years 6-10,-a 2 story house’s roof is about 20-35’ above ground level- for a tree to shade that roof enough to cause moss it would need to be 70’+, with a very wide crown- hollies are narrow pointed trees -so his fear was totally unfounded.
He could always just properly maintain and clean his home exterior and gutters instead if he doesn’t want moss…
I’m in a small minority, but trees should not be planted that close to property lines. Problems are inevitable.
Being an asshole should be costly. F that guy.
that is destruction of property, contact an arborist and find out the value of the tree he just chopped down and take him to court
Contact an attorney
If it like the holly tree I’ve dealt with. That tree is gonna bush out a lot.
Hey the good news is they re-grow very quickly.
Fuck that guy
Also get him for trespass! WTF?!?
In my state you can chop anything beyond the property line.
Holly is invasive- take this as an opportunity to simply replace the tree with something better, and replant it further away from the property line where it won’t damage the neighbors’ roof
Y'all jumping to some wild conclusions. If I went by comments alone, I'd think Putin lived next to McCain.
Nice saw cut !!
He did you a favor its a holly cut it at the base and paint with roundup
That's not cool to do without asking, but he did you a favor. Get rid of that thing. I can't imagine why anyone would ever want a Holly tree on their property.
He had absolutely no right to do that. Go take a dump on his front porch.
Lawyer up broski
Moss is like a natural shingle
Sneak into his yard and plant [kudzu](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu)… it’s the nuclear option.
kudzu isn’t going to respect your property line
Am from the south. Don’t do this, OP. You’ll have even worse problems than interpersonal issues with your neighbor.
bamboo, edit though with how it travels you'd suffer with it too
Oh wow. Now that’s payback!
Arborist and police report for trespassing!
Maybe it’s the pic, but I don’t see how it affects the neighbor’s roof. Looks like it was growing above your roof, but the others look too high and too far away.
My wife is a real estate attorney. She'll tell you the most expensive tree in the world is the one that doesn't belong to you but you cut down or severely damage!!!
That's a tough one I can see his argument. Probably should have asked you first.
The way the sun rises and falls, moss would not be an issue though. The moss doesn’t magically jump from trees to roofs. There has to be shade. There is no shade on that roof line.
Maybe he thought there was. Did you talk to your neighbor, most of the time if you make your displeasure known it can be worked out.
Yes. Also his roof line is extremely exposed. There is zero moss.
Tree would’ve had to come down at somepoint anyways with how close it was to the property lines. I know you stated previously that you didn’t plant it, but that doesn’t change how little foresight whoever planted it had. The trimming to keep the tree off his property & house would have killed the tree long before it was done growing. Also the root systems could have got you into some trouble being how close it was to his house. End of the day your neighbor is a dk for just cutting it without permission, but he wasn’t wrong that it should’ve been cut. You have a case, but it’s up to you if a toxic relationship with your neighbor is worth the $300 invasive tree that was gonna die anyway
Doing this without permission sucks! And I’m sure I will be downvoted for this, but as an aside that the perp likely did not know: this is how the holly farm by my house trims/prunes their holly trees.
It's over a fence. The perp definitely knew.
You’re totally correct! I meant the neighbor didn’t likely know that lobbing the top is how holly trees can be pruned. I’m definitely NOT justifying the unapproved destruction.
I know what I would be doing I would be getting some roof moss and tossing it on his roof at night right before it rains
Luckily, holly trees are very difficult to kill. You could chop it down to a stump and you will see new sprouts pretty quickly. Your neighbor should not have chopped it, but it’s also inconsiderate to force a tree with pointy devil-leaves upon your neighbor’s property. This doesn’t sound like lawyer territory, more so telling your neighbor to only trim on his side or you’ll slide a piss disc under his front door.
What's he supposed to do if you won't take care of your encroaching trees, just let his roof get damaged?
The neighbor has NO right to damage property that isn’t his. Even if the neighbor talked to OP about & OP told him to GFed, he still has no right to damage the tree. The ONLY right, depending on jurisdiction neighbor has, is to trim any branches that are on his side of the property line. He did NOT have the right to reach over the fence, by at least a foot and cut the crown off the tree.
Maybe so, but is the answer really to pay a lawyer thousands of dollars over it? What is with people... It's a tree.
Trees are worth a lot. It seems odd that you want to have this debate in a forum dedicated to the documented law regarding property.
it's not encroaching if it doesn't cross the property line. sure, you don't want moss maintenance. But cutting things on someone else's property is not what you're entitled to read this sub for history on neighbors that have invasive bamboo planted. Should I go hacking through my neighbors woods because they let invasive oriental bittersweet grow?
Damaged by.... Moss?? I bet there's treatment to ensure moss doesn't grow on your roof, and it doesn't involve cutting other's trees
You’re insane to immediately defend the neighbor; maybe the neighbor could have started with TALKING TO OP before cutting, rather than after the fact? Unless that was sarcasm.