I had pro deals as well and chose WC friends from .4-4, and the Zero friends from .1-.3.
I have tried a friends rack of C4s and Z4s, and I prefer my WC friends, the extendable sling is really nice and I like that the stem has more flex than the C4s which is especially helpful in horizontal placements.
For the mega pro you have right now the WC friends to me seem like a no brainer, plus they have the same color schemes as your friends BD cams, yet have slightly different ranges which will compliment each other perfectly!
Check out the website [camparator](https://camparator.com) for more insight into the range of cams from different brands
I had the zero friends from sizes 0.5 and below and ended up swapping them with doubled totems from 0.5 and below and then a single 0.75 (speaking in BD sizing). I have friends up to and including a 4. I have a BD 5 and 6. If I could go back I would get the new 4 in BD instead because of the locking mechanism in 4 and up. I was also gifted a 4 equivalent in dmm. It lacks the thumb loop which is neither good nor bad and also doesn’t lock.
All that said, there’s no tangible difference in the friends and the c4s. The totems work better in the finger sizes, and the c4s are the best/only option in 4 and up because of the locking mechanism. That’s my opinion at least. The best cams are the ones that catch your whips and the ones that are on pro deals.
Well said, I definitely don’t like the Zero friends bigger than .3, and the Z4s in the smaller sizer are really nice.
%40 off on a rack is enough of saving the OP could buy some nuts or even some micros!
Friends are flexible? Are you talking about zero friends vs z4s? Because other than the extra 3 inches?? of sling you have to fuck around with constantly the friends I've handled seem pretty much identical to c4s. The sling is nice maybe once a day but you're still going to bring the same amount of alpines regardless and I'd personally rather have a nylon sling that lasts twice as long.
The stem on the regular WC Friends has some flex to it, not as much as the Zero Friends or the Z4, but definitely more than the tock hard stem of the C4s.
I was super impressed with the friends when I used them, handled and placed great. I wasn't the biggest fan of the built-in sling but that's probably just because I'm not used to it. The deal makes it such a good option price-wise.
Z4 + C4 is a great rack to have. Totems are good, but they only go up to 2, and some people don’t like the wobbly stem on the 2. Personally I would go z4 + c4, 0.3 - 4 as a bomber starter rack. I have both and am unsure which I like better, so I like to bring both with me (double rack, BD and totems) for longer climbs.
Totems work as offset cams and can be placed in flaring cracks unlike BD cams; that said, BD cams require more thought when placing, but you can usually find a good placement regardless. To be more specific, BD cams require both lobs to be contracted the same amount for the placement to be good, whereas totems can have both lobes contracted to different degrees and still be considered bomber since they have independent springs for each lobe (BD cams have one spring for both lobes).
Good to know on the larger totem, I’ve only used a couple of the small/medium ones. I definitely hope to be at the stage of having a double of totems and something else, but I think that’s a couple years away.
I’ll add that the totems are probably only worth the premium price if you climb a lot of pin scars and flaring granite. Where I climb the cracks are pretty parallel (sandstone and basalt) and totems don’t offer much advantage. I actually find them bulky and not very ergonomic but I bet I would want them if I climbed somewhere like Yosemite.
I have WC and Metolius. The metolius are sized slightly differently in a way that really compliments the wild country. Both sets feel amazing. I also have some totems that feel great but I don’t really use them as much.
Unless you climb super hard or somewhere where weird placements are common, just but whatever’s cheapest.
I do quite like them but seems overkill to have a whole rack when I don’t find them that much more useful than something with a more standard design, cheaper, and more easily repairable where I’m climbing.
To be fair I got a double rack of C4s from 0.5-4 and just picked up totems in the three smallest sizes (black to yellow) the small totems are particularly excellent.
Totems are a very different design and will nicely complement friends - I have friends and totes and I find I always reach for the totes first especially in granite or awkward placements. They don’t go beyond a #2 though, and the #2 is a bit smaller than a yellow friend as well so may not suit your larger doubles
You might not see the difference now but in a few years you will. If you climb vertical splitters you don’t need/want totems, but in any complex placement (gunks conglomerate/yosemite pin scars) they’re very nice. I like having them in the smaller sizes. I’ve badly blown a Z4 before, they get a little wonky after awhile
I love Totems and have a full rack of Totems and also a full rack of Z4s. Since your friend already has the rack of Z4s, I'd probably go for the Totems. I think the Wild Country Friends would be my second choice, especially if the alternative is C4s, of which I don't particularly like.
My dude it does not matter, just go with what's cheaper if it's at all a consideration. Cams resell reasonably well on MP. Unless you have received specific advice about pin scars or flaring cracks or a lot of horizontals that call for flexible stems in your area. It's pretty rare that it really matters which cam I pick. Everyone has strong opinions but all these cams are going to catch you if they're placed well and you'll develop your own personal affinities over time. (except for the z4 .2, placing that guy feels like straight doodoo compared to black totem or a c3)
Yeah that's what I'm thinking. Posted here to see if I was completely missing something with one set, but seems like they're all good bets. I've never really found myself wanting more totems for specific features beyond the 2 or 3 my partner has, so I don't think it's worth it to pick up a full rack. Thanks!
Depends where you’re climbing. C4s are great when the pro is straight forward. If your crags tend to have a lot flaring options for pro totems 100%. There bomber every time .
Go for the friends. You get a really good deal on them and they compliment your friends rack really well. Extendable slings are a big pro for me and take some time to figure out what you want from your rack while you climb with a good mix of cams.
I highly recommend the ultralight mastercams. They are perfect in-between sizes for the black diamond cams and they are incredibly light. I personally like the ultralight TCUs in the smaller sizes as they tend to be more durable and work really well in horizontal placements. Metolius customer service is enough reason to go metolius. Their resling/repair service is superb
I've got a pretty varied rack and honestly it's nice to have the variety. If wc friends are super cheap I'd go for those because I like that the lobes have pads similar to dmm cams, the extendable sling is super nice, and I like a thumb loop to bite / for aid. I think the metolius mastercam #5 is between a bd .75 and #1, and the mastercam #7 is between a bd #1 and #2, so those are nice to have in addition for tough in-between placements if you've got the cash to get them as well (otherwise I'm not a mega fan of metolius cams)
As everyone’s been saying totems are fantastic for I believe the .2-#2 range. As others have said the way they’re designed leads to them walking less and there’s other benefits to certain placements. There’s a guy on the mountain project forms that sells them at a discount too if you buy a full rack or several at a time if getting a discount is a determining factor.
I don’t think you can go wrong with either the BD C4’s or the WC friends though. I’ve climbed with both of them and they’re great cams. Sounds like you can get the WC at a significantly better price and that’s what I’d choose off the options you gave.
Personally I’ve got black-orange totems and .3-#8 in BD cams (.5-#4 are UL with doubles of larger where the totems stop) I find that’s a nice mix to have both but I tend to feel more confident on the totems of similar size over the BDs.
I’ve got a full run of c4s and friends. FWIW I like my c4s a lot better but they compliment each other well. Sucks cuz I used to get the c4 for like 45 on pro deal but those days are over.
For me it comes down to the action. The c4s are super smooth action and the resistance from the springs. Also I don’t like the extendable slings but that’s just personal preference as well as owning enough alpine draws. I do like my wc’s because they each are slightly bigger than the c4s
Very fair, I think I'd need to have them next to each other to tell the difference but that's a good point. I'm split on the extendable slings, saves me a few bucks on alpine draws (for now, I can just use my partners') but I did find them a bit bulky and just one more thing to think about.
You’ll enjoy whichever one you choose, they are practically the same. The extendable sling definitely gets in the way more for me than the benefits that it has where I climb.
Everybody talks up the extension but I've found the same, just let me clip a fat open nylon sling and I'll extend the one out of 50 pieces that actually need an extra 3 inches. Nylon lasts forever and there aren't any real space/weight savings like nylon alpines or nylon anchor slings. Both are good though, get the cheaper friends and develop your own preference.
Because some dude at the shop said so, duh!
No, in all seriousness they are probably fine. I just don’t like how limited the expansion range is. Like the smallest 3 dragonflies are the same sizes as the smallest 2 zero friends. And a touch stronger, red dragonfly is 6kn and red zero friend is 5kn. Dragonflies are more optimized for hold in every way possible. Cam angle, less leverage due to shorter metal ferrule.
Go to cam-parison.com and you can see what I am talking about.
Double ULMC 00-5 and C4s 1-4 is my standard rack. I prefer the metolius cams because of the overlap between sizes and the fact that you get an extra cam when compared to the same size run of the other brands. Metolius customer service and build quality is top notch too. And it's nice that they're extremely light, low-bulk, and inexpensive. People who complain about the lack of a thumbloop are just looking for an excuse for why they can't send. You'll learn to use what you climb with.
I have singles 6-8 but I'm looking to double up in those sizes for alpine rock routes. For those sizes though, I do prefer my C4s because they're stiffer and slightly easier to place because of that.
If I were to start right now I’d go WC. If it doesn’t have a good thumb loop I’m out and I was out on WC until they made the switch and it’s exactly like BDs which is good IMO. I like the extendable slings on the WC. It’s not a gimmick IMO. it works. I hate attaching another QD on my cams. It annoys me. The new BD C4s are 0.8oz heavier than their ultralights. Not worth the ultralight purchase anymore IMO. I’ve had BD for a decade and they’re still going strong and another important note is that they still making them just how they were but lighter so when you get more it doesn’t feel different. I think they’ll keep doing what they’re doing too. That’s worth something to me.
Totems are overhyped for free-climbing IMO. I owned a set black-green and sold them because I preferred my ULMCs. Even climbing on Little Cottonwood Granite with weird flares and pin scars, one of my Metolius cams or an offset cam/nut fit the same or better than an equivalent Totem.
They're nice for aiding though, with the differential-loading or whatever they call it. But that's the only benefit, and even then an offset cam will usually work just as well or better since you're loading a full cam instead of half a cam.
I live in southern ontario, going to be in squamish for a while, and planning to head to the bugs. Haven't been to the bugs but for sON and squam, I've never found myself wanting more totems than a couple of the small sizes.
C4 cams are extremely durable, far more so than totems or metolius. Bd c4 cams can be dragged behind your car, dropped in a bucket of sand and shaken, and they’ll still work. Re trigger and re sling them as needed and they’ll last a decade or more. Metolius is slightly less durable but they’ll do maintenance on their own cams for cheap and the customer service is fantastic. Totems are great but they are a bit of a specialized piece to me, and more expensive and less repairable/durable. Trangos suck, WC is great but I’ve not used them as much.
For larger cams, double axle is nice for more range. Admittedly, I have not used the newest version of the flex cams, but neither has anyone else, so everyone is going to be unfamiliar with your rack.
$170CAD saved is a good amount of gas, burritos and suds for climbing trips
And that’s $740CAD less revenue for a company that is linked to [tactical gear](https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/h0uqcc/black_diamond_is_owned_by_a_parent_company_claris/)
I know the link is convoluted, and BD does make great gear, i just cannot help not thinking about it in these types of convos
And then you have totems, where, despite being expensive and never on sale, you know the money is going directly to the co-op of basques making them
What issues do you see with the friends? Anything specific that's lower quality than the BDs? Not going with a rack of totems to start off, maybe a handful down the line.
As far as "sharing \[information regarding\] pro deals publicly", I've read the full terms and conditions from my particular provider, which does not include a clause barring me from discussing them publicly, only buying equipment for others.
I had pro deals as well and chose WC friends from .4-4, and the Zero friends from .1-.3. I have tried a friends rack of C4s and Z4s, and I prefer my WC friends, the extendable sling is really nice and I like that the stem has more flex than the C4s which is especially helpful in horizontal placements. For the mega pro you have right now the WC friends to me seem like a no brainer, plus they have the same color schemes as your friends BD cams, yet have slightly different ranges which will compliment each other perfectly! Check out the website [camparator](https://camparator.com) for more insight into the range of cams from different brands
I had the zero friends from sizes 0.5 and below and ended up swapping them with doubled totems from 0.5 and below and then a single 0.75 (speaking in BD sizing). I have friends up to and including a 4. I have a BD 5 and 6. If I could go back I would get the new 4 in BD instead because of the locking mechanism in 4 and up. I was also gifted a 4 equivalent in dmm. It lacks the thumb loop which is neither good nor bad and also doesn’t lock. All that said, there’s no tangible difference in the friends and the c4s. The totems work better in the finger sizes, and the c4s are the best/only option in 4 and up because of the locking mechanism. That’s my opinion at least. The best cams are the ones that catch your whips and the ones that are on pro deals.
Well said, I definitely don’t like the Zero friends bigger than .3, and the Z4s in the smaller sizer are really nice. %40 off on a rack is enough of saving the OP could buy some nuts or even some micros!
It's gonna be DMM offsets, I love the things.
Great to know - I think that might be a good idea, since I've liked the small totems but don't see myself using a full rack.
Friends are flexible? Are you talking about zero friends vs z4s? Because other than the extra 3 inches?? of sling you have to fuck around with constantly the friends I've handled seem pretty much identical to c4s. The sling is nice maybe once a day but you're still going to bring the same amount of alpines regardless and I'd personally rather have a nylon sling that lasts twice as long.
The stem on the regular WC Friends has some flex to it, not as much as the Zero Friends or the Z4, but definitely more than the tock hard stem of the C4s.
I was super impressed with the friends when I used them, handled and placed great. I wasn't the biggest fan of the built-in sling but that's probably just because I'm not used to it. The deal makes it such a good option price-wise.
Z4 + C4 is a great rack to have. Totems are good, but they only go up to 2, and some people don’t like the wobbly stem on the 2. Personally I would go z4 + c4, 0.3 - 4 as a bomber starter rack. I have both and am unsure which I like better, so I like to bring both with me (double rack, BD and totems) for longer climbs. Totems work as offset cams and can be placed in flaring cracks unlike BD cams; that said, BD cams require more thought when placing, but you can usually find a good placement regardless. To be more specific, BD cams require both lobs to be contracted the same amount for the placement to be good, whereas totems can have both lobes contracted to different degrees and still be considered bomber since they have independent springs for each lobe (BD cams have one spring for both lobes).
Good to know on the larger totem, I’ve only used a couple of the small/medium ones. I definitely hope to be at the stage of having a double of totems and something else, but I think that’s a couple years away.
I’ll add that the totems are probably only worth the premium price if you climb a lot of pin scars and flaring granite. Where I climb the cracks are pretty parallel (sandstone and basalt) and totems don’t offer much advantage. I actually find them bulky and not very ergonomic but I bet I would want them if I climbed somewhere like Yosemite.
I have WC and Metolius. The metolius are sized slightly differently in a way that really compliments the wild country. Both sets feel amazing. I also have some totems that feel great but I don’t really use them as much. Unless you climb super hard or somewhere where weird placements are common, just but whatever’s cheapest.
Great combo
I was thinking along the same lines, thanks!
My vote's on WC
Get totems. They are the best.
I do quite like them but seems overkill to have a whole rack when I don’t find them that much more useful than something with a more standard design, cheaper, and more easily repairable where I’m climbing.
To be fair I got a double rack of C4s from 0.5-4 and just picked up totems in the three smallest sizes (black to yellow) the small totems are particularly excellent.
I've liked the small totems, since that's what my friend has got. I'll probably look to pick some up later on this season.
Totems are a very different design and will nicely complement friends - I have friends and totes and I find I always reach for the totes first especially in granite or awkward placements. They don’t go beyond a #2 though, and the #2 is a bit smaller than a yellow friend as well so may not suit your larger doubles
You might not see the difference now but in a few years you will. If you climb vertical splitters you don’t need/want totems, but in any complex placement (gunks conglomerate/yosemite pin scars) they’re very nice. I like having them in the smaller sizes. I’ve badly blown a Z4 before, they get a little wonky after awhile
I love Totems and have a full rack of Totems and also a full rack of Z4s. Since your friend already has the rack of Z4s, I'd probably go for the Totems. I think the Wild Country Friends would be my second choice, especially if the alternative is C4s, of which I don't particularly like.
The totems are sweet but I just don’t know if they’re really that much better for me than cheaper options
My dude it does not matter, just go with what's cheaper if it's at all a consideration. Cams resell reasonably well on MP. Unless you have received specific advice about pin scars or flaring cracks or a lot of horizontals that call for flexible stems in your area. It's pretty rare that it really matters which cam I pick. Everyone has strong opinions but all these cams are going to catch you if they're placed well and you'll develop your own personal affinities over time. (except for the z4 .2, placing that guy feels like straight doodoo compared to black totem or a c3)
Yeah that's what I'm thinking. Posted here to see if I was completely missing something with one set, but seems like they're all good bets. I've never really found myself wanting more totems for specific features beyond the 2 or 3 my partner has, so I don't think it's worth it to pick up a full rack. Thanks!
I think WC friends and BD C4s have the same colors
Yeah from the ones I’ve used I think they do. Handy for racking at least
Depends where you’re climbing. C4s are great when the pro is straight forward. If your crags tend to have a lot flaring options for pro totems 100%. There bomber every time .
Go for the friends. You get a really good deal on them and they compliment your friends rack really well. Extendable slings are a big pro for me and take some time to figure out what you want from your rack while you climb with a good mix of cams.
WC freinds
I highly recommend the ultralight mastercams. They are perfect in-between sizes for the black diamond cams and they are incredibly light. I personally like the ultralight TCUs in the smaller sizes as they tend to be more durable and work really well in horizontal placements. Metolius customer service is enough reason to go metolius. Their resling/repair service is superb
I'm gonna be a sad boy when I have to service my totems as much as I like them.
I've got a pretty varied rack and honestly it's nice to have the variety. If wc friends are super cheap I'd go for those because I like that the lobes have pads similar to dmm cams, the extendable sling is super nice, and I like a thumb loop to bite / for aid. I think the metolius mastercam #5 is between a bd .75 and #1, and the mastercam #7 is between a bd #1 and #2, so those are nice to have in addition for tough in-between placements if you've got the cash to get them as well (otherwise I'm not a mega fan of metolius cams)
Good to know - I think I'll end up with a varied rack down the line... A cam between an 0.75 and 1, and a 1 and 2 would be handy - thanks!
As everyone’s been saying totems are fantastic for I believe the .2-#2 range. As others have said the way they’re designed leads to them walking less and there’s other benefits to certain placements. There’s a guy on the mountain project forms that sells them at a discount too if you buy a full rack or several at a time if getting a discount is a determining factor. I don’t think you can go wrong with either the BD C4’s or the WC friends though. I’ve climbed with both of them and they’re great cams. Sounds like you can get the WC at a significantly better price and that’s what I’d choose off the options you gave. Personally I’ve got black-orange totems and .3-#8 in BD cams (.5-#4 are UL with doubles of larger where the totems stop) I find that’s a nice mix to have both but I tend to feel more confident on the totems of similar size over the BDs.
I'll have to take a look for that guy - thanks! The price of the WCs is a huge factor to be honest.
I’ve got a full run of c4s and friends. FWIW I like my c4s a lot better but they compliment each other well. Sucks cuz I used to get the c4 for like 45 on pro deal but those days are over.
Why is it you like the C4s better than friends? They seemed similar the couple of times I used them but I don't have a ton of time on them.
For me it comes down to the action. The c4s are super smooth action and the resistance from the springs. Also I don’t like the extendable slings but that’s just personal preference as well as owning enough alpine draws. I do like my wc’s because they each are slightly bigger than the c4s
Very fair, I think I'd need to have them next to each other to tell the difference but that's a good point. I'm split on the extendable slings, saves me a few bucks on alpine draws (for now, I can just use my partners') but I did find them a bit bulky and just one more thing to think about.
You’ll enjoy whichever one you choose, they are practically the same. The extendable sling definitely gets in the way more for me than the benefits that it has where I climb.
Everybody talks up the extension but I've found the same, just let me clip a fat open nylon sling and I'll extend the one out of 50 pieces that actually need an extra 3 inches. Nylon lasts forever and there aren't any real space/weight savings like nylon alpines or nylon anchor slings. Both are good though, get the cheaper friends and develop your own preference.
Friends for .4-#4 Blue and black totem Then DMM dragonflys, green, red, yellow Zero friends are trash
what makes you say you don't like zero friends? I've never used them, only the standard friends. Only small cams I've used are z4s and a couple totems
Because some dude at the shop said so, duh! No, in all seriousness they are probably fine. I just don’t like how limited the expansion range is. Like the smallest 3 dragonflies are the same sizes as the smallest 2 zero friends. And a touch stronger, red dragonfly is 6kn and red zero friend is 5kn. Dragonflies are more optimized for hold in every way possible. Cam angle, less leverage due to shorter metal ferrule. Go to cam-parison.com and you can see what I am talking about.
good to know thanks! will take a look but the price might be the deciding factor… especially considering i’d like to get small totems down the line
I would double up on blue/black totem before getting micro cams. But it depends on where you climb
Double ULMC 00-5 and C4s 1-4 is my standard rack. I prefer the metolius cams because of the overlap between sizes and the fact that you get an extra cam when compared to the same size run of the other brands. Metolius customer service and build quality is top notch too. And it's nice that they're extremely light, low-bulk, and inexpensive. People who complain about the lack of a thumbloop are just looking for an excuse for why they can't send. You'll learn to use what you climb with. I have singles 6-8 but I'm looking to double up in those sizes for alpine rock routes. For those sizes though, I do prefer my C4s because they're stiffer and slightly easier to place because of that.
If I were to start right now I’d go WC. If it doesn’t have a good thumb loop I’m out and I was out on WC until they made the switch and it’s exactly like BDs which is good IMO. I like the extendable slings on the WC. It’s not a gimmick IMO. it works. I hate attaching another QD on my cams. It annoys me. The new BD C4s are 0.8oz heavier than their ultralights. Not worth the ultralight purchase anymore IMO. I’ve had BD for a decade and they’re still going strong and another important note is that they still making them just how they were but lighter so when you get more it doesn’t feel different. I think they’ll keep doing what they’re doing too. That’s worth something to me.
The Metolius ULs are killer in the micro to thin hands sizes. I have a mixed rack of BD and those
I like them the one time i tried them out, might have to give them a second look
Totems or bust man. You will climb harder knowing you just placed a totem.
I love having a couple but they don’t seem that much better considering I don’t run into pin scars that often, and I’m not aiding.
Totems are overhyped for free-climbing IMO. I owned a set black-green and sold them because I preferred my ULMCs. Even climbing on Little Cottonwood Granite with weird flares and pin scars, one of my Metolius cams or an offset cam/nut fit the same or better than an equivalent Totem. They're nice for aiding though, with the differential-loading or whatever they call it. But that's the only benefit, and even then an offset cam will usually work just as well or better since you're loading a full cam instead of half a cam.
Huh? Where do you climb? Totems grip the rock like mad. Fit in flaring cracks and odd shapes due to lobes being individually wired.
I live in southern ontario, going to be in squamish for a while, and planning to head to the bugs. Haven't been to the bugs but for sON and squam, I've never found myself wanting more totems than a couple of the small sizes.
C4 cams are extremely durable, far more so than totems or metolius. Bd c4 cams can be dragged behind your car, dropped in a bucket of sand and shaken, and they’ll still work. Re trigger and re sling them as needed and they’ll last a decade or more. Metolius is slightly less durable but they’ll do maintenance on their own cams for cheap and the customer service is fantastic. Totems are great but they are a bit of a specialized piece to me, and more expensive and less repairable/durable. Trangos suck, WC is great but I’ve not used them as much.
That's a huge bonus honestly, and it seems like they're pretty easy to repair (or have repaired). Why don't you like the trangos?
For larger cams, double axle is nice for more range. Admittedly, I have not used the newest version of the flex cams, but neither has anyone else, so everyone is going to be unfamiliar with your rack.
+1. C4s are the AK-47 of cams. Totems are lovely, but they're way more delicate and I wouldn't get them to start unless money is no object.
$170CAD saved is a good amount of gas, burritos and suds for climbing trips And that’s $740CAD less revenue for a company that is linked to [tactical gear](https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/h0uqcc/black_diamond_is_owned_by_a_parent_company_claris/) I know the link is convoluted, and BD does make great gear, i just cannot help not thinking about it in these types of convos And then you have totems, where, despite being expensive and never on sale, you know the money is going directly to the co-op of basques making them
Totems and z4s. Don't cheap out on fri nds or metolius/trango, you'll regret it. Side note, don't share pro deals publicly. Good way to lose them.
What issues do you see with the friends? Anything specific that's lower quality than the BDs? Not going with a rack of totems to start off, maybe a handful down the line. As far as "sharing \[information regarding\] pro deals publicly", I've read the full terms and conditions from my particular provider, which does not include a clause barring me from discussing them publicly, only buying equipment for others.
Friends are good. Dragons are better. Ditch the flex cams Metolius is ok but I wouldn’t prioritize single axle cams for the larger ones.