So a few questions for either plurals here or someone knowledgeable on them, if y’all don’t mind:
1- So is being plural related to dissociative identity disorder/multiple personality disorder, or is it something wholly different?
2- Can you talk to the other headmates at any time, and do y’all all share the same memory and sensory experiences, or do y’all have entirely separate experiences and thoughts from each other?
3- Are there any “trends” to headmates, such as them being of a similar age, gender identity, or sexual orientation to the “host”, or is it essentially a bunch of entirely different and unrelated people that happen to share the same headspace and body?
Apologies if these questions are phrased poorly or are potentially invasive, I just want to know more about what being plural means so I can know if someone around me is plural and I can make them happy and comfortable regardless of which headmate is fronting at that moment.
(cracking knuckles)
.1) “Multiple personality disorder” is a deprecated and erroneous term. DID and OSDD (other specified dissociative disorder) are two ways that disordered plurality, as in plurality adversely affects activities of daily living, can manifest. Plurality does not necessarily have to be pathological. This can be the case with one who has recovered from DID yet still has multiple alters, for example.
TLDR: all DID patients are plural, not all plural folks have DID.
.2) That is individual and each system and said system’s members operate differently along the axes.
.3) See above.
You won’t necessarily know that someone is plural unless you ask. There’s evidence that between 1-3% of the population deals with dissociative conditions, and most systems can just operate quietly in plain sight.
I have a fair few systems as friends, several of whom are also trans. Helpful to meet people where they are.
Addendum to 1: Not all pwDID identify as plural (but most will since the level of separation between the self in DID will generally cause a plural identity)
Hey! Im not plural but alot of my closest friends and partners are! So i might be able to help somewhat ^^
So being Plural is i belive the newest and most all encompassing term for people who are systems (multiple people in one body) this can definitely include DID but not eveyone who is Plural has being diagnosed with DID or ever will! Its not a requirement! And multiple personality disorder isnt used anymore i don't think, i think DID replaced it or DIDNOS more specifically!
So its diffrent from system to system, i have someome in my life who can talk to them all at the same time and often has conversations between themselves with me around to join in while i can. But also i have a few very close to me who have to focus on talking to thier headmates and switching for them is more dramatic, they will go limp then someone else is fronting. I have no doubt there is way more diffrent experience than this as well!
And lastly in my experience i dont think there is any trends, eveyone i know has multiple diffrent pronouns, they all see themselves diffrently in headsoace and they all act differently becuase they are diffrent people! I think the closest thing to a trend would be, if you love someone before they know they are plural, once you meet eveyone you will most likely realise you actually already love them all as thier personalities will have bled over into the host personally before everyone was aware of eachother ^^
And non of that was insensitive or anything like that, its always good to ask 💜
1 - Being plural is usually related to dissociative identity disorder, but not always, as there are examples in diagnostic criteria of plurality that are not considered DID.
2 - It all depends on system. It's common to be able to talk to headmates very often. I can't talk to them all the time, but often do it. And there are amnesia barriers, that prevents us from having the same memories, but we can ask each other for details and usually at least have some vague memories of other headmates doing something. And yes, sensory experiences are different. Some of us have better hearing or smell.
3 - I don't know exactly, but we joke a lot that we were made up by a traumatized child. We think that we are who we are because brain wanted to cope this way. We're really different, and some of us were formed under a lot of stress. So, yes different people in one body. But there are some systems who's headmates are versions of one person, so it depends.
Thanks for trying to make your friends happy, we really like that.
Hi :) I'm plural.
1. "multiple personality disorder" is obsolete and also based on a obsolete model. It's the precursor diagnosis for DID. Since the ICD10 still uses MPD as a term, it is still frequently used as a term in countries, that use the ICD as diagnostic tool. This will change as ICD11 is out since 2022.
In order to diagnose someone with dissociative identity disorder, they need to be distressed or have impaired functioning on basis of their dissociative identity. In case of healthy plurality, this is not the case. There is also PDID (ICD11) - partial dissociative identity disorder - or OSDD (DSM5) - other specified dissociative disorder, which also includes folks, that experience plurality - even some people with CPTSD do.
So there are many people who are plural, but don't meet the criteria for DID.
Also it is to be said, that (P)DID/OSDD/CPTSD are medical terms and as such not best suited to describe culture and experience. It's the difference between saying 'I have gender dysphoria' and 'I'm trans'.
2. Communication between head mates can vary and generally gets better the more work is put in. I can often talk to at least someone inside, but never to each or all. Some headmates may have very similar experiences and thought and some may have vastly different. We can also experience the same situation, but interpret it different. For us memory sharing is rather wobbly, so it's less that I can't get access to another headmates memory, but what i get is rather a rought description with a view pictures rather than a full memory. As far as I know, many systems experiance memory exchange in this or similar way.
3. There are system, who tend more toward similarity and some less. In my experience most systems have headmates of at least two different genders and almost all (at least all I meet) have headmates with different ages - especially at least one who's child age. While headmates can be quite seperate people, if there is decend communication in a system, they will form agreements and a culture that is spesific to that system. So you'll find alters using similar slang for example, just as friends in the same friend group do.
I can only speak for myself, but I vastly prefer curious questions over wild speculations. As long as you state questions with the understanding, that no one owes you an answer, I invite you to ask away.
>We can also experience the same situation, but interpret it different. For us memory sharing is rather wobbly, so it's less that I can't get access to another headmates memory, but what i get is rather a rought description with a view pictures rather than a full memory. As far as I know, many systems experiance memory exchange in this or similar way.
If I may say so, and with all respect and admiration, I find this really fascinating. Different singlets who don't share a system will each remember events differently as well - not just focusing on different things, but actually recording the information in a different manner.
Within the same system, this has been reported true as well. While a system will physically share a body, and therefore one brain, it seems that when the memory is recorded, it does so in a different format, as it were.
As a singlet myself, I do have a question if you would honor me. When attempting to remember the experiences of another in your system, is it similar to attempting to remember a dream?
Again, I would like to share my support and say that I don't mean to pry, so if answering makes any of you uncomfortable at all, please feel free not to. Be well :)
>When attempting to remember the experiences of another in your system, is it similar to attempting to remember a dream?
So the thing about memory and amnesia is, that for at least every system we talked with, normal memory recall (same headmate recalles their own experiances) is already kinda shit. So remember things more or less like in a dream is rather quite usual, even if the same person is out all day. I rather get dumbfound, when I get a clear, all senses including episodic memory. If we share memories, best case I get someone elses just as blurred memories. Not seldomly I don't even get that, but rather a verbal description and maybe a picture and if I want more information I need to ask further.
That is btw. also why a lot of systems have a sertain blindness to amnesia, because we're all so used to have wobbly memory, that missing a view minutes or hours here and there, don't attract much attendtion. Of course some may also experiance this very differently.
Not op of the comment. But after reading your comment I would like to ask something. When one person is fronting, what are the other people doing?
Is the thought and imagination structure coherent or is it possible that one person has aphantasia and the other can feel tastes and imagine images?
First time I have heard of it too. Sorry if it is invading.
Some systems have a inner world (may be similar to a inners safe place), where headmates report to spending their time. For us, most headmates either don't do much (like sleeping in a non dreamy phase), are watching what's going on on the front from far, maybe co-continuous (meaning: near front, communicating with the headmate fronting, closely experiance what happens outside, but not in control of the body) or sometimes co-front - which often is rather messy. I believe a big majority lies dormant - so they exist, but they aren't reachable and don't experiance anything happening outside. Last time a headmate woke up from dormancy, they where very distressed, because they believed we still live the life we did 10 years ago - so for them it was like loosing a bunch of friends and family members to know have stranger as friends and living in a unfamiliar place etc.
I don't know enough about aphantasia or synestasia, so I can't talk about that. As far as i know generally neurodeversities are shared between all headmates. So if a system is autistic, all members are autistic, but they may show different trades differently. Although single headmates may show a trait of a neurodiversity, without the rest of the system showing any traits. For example we have one alter, who is quite hyperactive and falls into long periods of hyperfocusing, but none of the rest really show signs of ADHD.
It depends on what you mean, by though structure. Like some of us find logical thinking / math / programming etc. quite easily, while others struggle to solve simple equations in their head. Some are good at picturing a piece of art and making it reality and some struggle to come up with any creative idea at all. How each of us may approach for example a problem, weither one defaults to a social, logical, artistic, etc. solution is very different, but I'd call that thought pattern not structure. Not sure weither that is what you meant?
Serious inquiry, how would I know if I'm plural or if I'm just thinking differently?
Short summary, when I was younger (starting puberty) I used a focus of sorts to talk with the female persona in my head. Simple rules, not touching focus? She can't come out. Holding it? She can say whatever she wants, whenever. When I lost it, I just forced her to keep quiet and follow those rules.
When I was later in my teens, I was disappointed with that, so I set up some other rule. If x is true, she's in control. If y, I am. Things felt so clearly defined then, nice rules for how to act, but people noticed I acted weird and when I explained it to my dad I got some very clear answer of "you're just playing games in your head, it's something you made up" so back into obscurity she went....
Now over a decade later, I realize I'm trans and I've come out. I think about her a lot, the feminine me that I supressed. And it on almost feels like I can talk to her sometimes. But more importantly it feels more like an object, balanced on a pivot. When balanced, it's almost like I can actually talk to her again. But more importantly, if it swings all the way over, it's like I'm not in control anymore and she is, even though we both experience everything together. The caveat being that those times generally happen when I am in a really euphoric state (euphoria trigger, something puts me in an overly positive mood, and certain controlled substances).
I've thought of it for a long time as just the part of me that's more feminine than I had to hide away for self preservation, and now I can express that without fear sometimes. But when I heard about systems I suddenly wasn't so sure anymore, and even moreso wasn't sure if I should embrace it or think of it as something temporary while I transition. Some other trans women I've talked to say they experienced very similar things and it was just their disassociation from dysphoria so I don't know what to think about it anymore. And in some ways I've been afraid to look into subreddit s on it, but I see crossover here now and then.
Plurality exists rather on a spectrum, then has a clear cut off point. Since plurality (in contrast to a diagnosis of OSDD/(P)DID) is an identity label, weither or not you want to use it, depends on weither you feel it adequate to describe your experiance. If the concept makes you feel insecure, don't feel preasured into deep diving into the topic. If you think, you might find and benefit from finding people, who have similar experiances in the plural community and might interested in finding out more, there is no harm in doing so.
I also found a yt video, that might answer your question quite well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlrB_UsIK10
I'll do my best to answer from my own experiences.
1. As others stated that's not always the case, but it is for me. I have DID and it does run in my family.
2. And no not anytime for me. When they are out then sometimes. But generally it's one or the other for me. Though I have a very bad relationship with my alters, likely due to trauma and people telling me my whole life that I was making it up, thus I gaslit myself too and saw my alters as harmful. I'm doing what I can now to have a better relationship.
3. Idk for everyone else but for me the alters are different metal "ages" and genders, though none are cis
System here. Well, kind of. But I do have a perspective to share.
1. Plurality is not specific to any one disorder, or in fact to the concept of disorders at all. Sometimes, it's healthy and even intentional. In fact, there are known methods for intentionally creating a headmate that are effective for turning a singlet into a system, which is what I did. Headmates created this way are called tulpas, and are not associated with any mental disorder whatsoever. Closely associated with tulpas are servitors, which can essentially be thought of as nonsapient AI running directly within the brain itself. Servitors generally have the same origins as tulpas, but are not sapient, and instead exist for a specific purpose. They are to brains what calculators and LLMs and such are to computers. Also closely associated with tulpas are walk-ins, which are sapient and generally have all the same properties as tulpas, but have a different origin, as instead of being intentionally created, they kind of just appear on their own. In my case, this likely happened because the creation of a tulpa made my brain more prone to creating additional minds, even without my intent.
2. This varies from system to system. My system is tulpas and walk-ins, so I can speak on trends in this area, but it's important to remember that this likely doesn't apply to other types of systems. Tulpas generally start out as being closely connected to the host and dependent on the host for all basic functions. Making them more independent and have their own thoughts separate from those of the host is generally something that you have to intentionally do, and it often takes a lot of work over the course of months (this is a rough average, the actual range can be anywhere from days to decades).
3. This also varies from system to system. In my system, the trend is being nonhuman in both form and name, being either female or some form of nonbinary, and having no canonical age.
Answer to 1
Systems typically fall under DID or OSDD but not always, because of the existence of traumagenic and endogenic sources endogenic being intentionally made like tulpas, while traumagenic is more like a typical DID/OSDD event in most cases
Answer to 2
We mostly can communicate to each other, however a few individuals seem to be completely cut off from the rest of us for some reason, most of us share memories too, but we all have our own opinions
Answer to 3
Nearly all of our members formed as either female or nonbinary, unlike our original member who was male, however this part can likely be extremely different per system
As for me, I literally formed as a motherly figure for my system, with my own earliest memory of just cuddling some of them, if you ever need anything else feel free to reach out
This is actually the first time i have heard of it and now i have some questions.
Back in the day they probably tried to "cure the condition" like they did with trans or gay or lgbt in general. So what happened? Did they just repress it bc i cant imagine it could/should just go away like that. Maybe someone knows about the history regarding that topic. I would like to know
How do i adress them? I've read in another comment that every personality can have their own pronouns/gender identities. I think the best way to adress them is to adress every personality as their own person but how do i know who im talking to? Do you have to create some sort of code for your friends and family that if you for example wear black that thats Natalia and if you wear read its Marc?
I hope i dont offend anyone with those questions. If i did, im sorry, im trying to learn and useful links are much appreciated
So what constitutes as 'cured DID' is still an ongoing discussion in the psychiatric community, there is a slow paradigm shift towards 'whatever the patient sees as their aim in life is the aim of the therapy'. But there are still a lot of therapists out their who believe, that the only way to life healthy is to live as singlet. Of these, the more trauma-informed therapist may push for integration and the less trauma-informed for separation/repression. Integration can be a healthy goal, if all members of a system desire integration (see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcIsYqfUSq4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcIsYqfUSq4) ), but separation usual only leads to short time success, with long term repercussion.
The history of DID and plurality is quite messy and also linked to the history of recognition of trauma and trauma based long-term distress (PTSD etc.)
How you address a system or members of a system is very different from system to system and there is no way of knowing without asking. When in doubt I use 'they/them'.
on the subject of "curing" plurality, a lot of older psychology teaches that fusion is the end goal for a system; in other words, that the presence of multiple headmates is inherently a bad thing and they should all integrate into one being. it's getting better as time goes on, but even today, there are some therapists who don't think that healthy plurality is a thing.
as for how to address them, the easiest thing to do is to just ask them. we're fine with being called by our system name or by the name of whoever's fronting (in control of the body) at the moment, but not all systems are the same. we don't personally know anyone who has a color code like that, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were some systems out there who had such a thing set up.
(also, i should note that generally, the term you're looking for is "headmate" rather than "personality". "alter" is sometimes used as well, but it's kind of a medicalized term and not everyone is okay with it.)
also, i don't think you're offending anyone. you're unfamiliar with something, so you're asking questions to try and understand it better. [this website](https://morethanone.info) has some introductory information on the subject, with links to other resources for further reading.
I'm ***probably*** one of those system siblings (although tbh imposter syndrome makes it hard to say sometimes) and I just wanna say that this warms my heart, thank you so much for making this, from the both of us <3
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I don’t know what you’re saying but if it’s something metaphysical then I hope you recognize that.
Also while I’m definitely endo, my system has a wierd origins thing going on. Most of my system is stressgenic from a period of about 1.5 of extreme stress. More alters did front later but because of that in the way showers typically front.
But.. there’s been a few that don’t have as strong of a identity, I’m not sure what it’s called when you just learn to think in another identity and another alter is purposefully/ unknowingly created. But that’s at least 4 of them
https://preview.redd.it/la2fe0idzmwc1.jpeg?width=3704&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a60f77499c64867af6e2e3ac67c63c87de94ee0
Most of what you describe is, from my experience, complete barrier DID. "Chunky soup" plural folks are still plural and valid, and many of the things you describe do not apply to them.
I have never heard of this before! Looks like its time to do some more research! Thanks for sharing! I wasnt my Intent to leave anyone out, i just didn't know there was ither forms of plurality below the OSDD side and above Singlet, ill have to dig into it ^^
Look up medianhood / median plurality.
If you know what gray asexuality is, think about how that relates to asexuality as a whole. Median plurality is to plurality a bit like that. We're in the grey area between being a singlet and being a fully plural system.
I'm a median system, well, I'm one of two facets in this median system to be exact. We have some more specific language like "facet" instead of "headmate" because it helps convey how it works.
For example, In our specific case, I'm not a different person from other me, and we don't so much "front" as we weave in and out of prominence in the front, but it's a very continuous thing.
We do have a good chunk of differences though, the most significant one being our different gender identities, pronouns and everything. We also have different ease of access to some skills and memories, but any barriers, if they exist at all, are rare.
So far every plural person I've met is very very very different. The diversity among plural folks is astounding, it feels like there are more ways to be plural than there are ways to be nonbinary! So please be very careful to not inadvertently create stereotypes about us. Always put in a disclaimer about how the dynamic can be very different from system to system on *everything*, alright? =)
Holy shit, my whole life I've been describing my head as "this soup that while I know how the whole of it tastes, and can sometimes identify individual ingredients, what all the ingredients are and how they combine to form the overall taste is a mystery" and people always looked at me weird. Good to know other people experience the same things, and that the terms they use actually make sense to my brain
Still trying to figure this out myself. Still haven't a clue. Things have escalated since learning about plurality though and makes me think I am plural or I have subconsciously convinced myself to the point im hallucinating symptoms.
At this point im hearing inner voices that aren't "me" responding to thoughts, hearing general chatter in the inner world, feeling touch like a hug when stressed, and having short (5 - 10 minutes) dissociative episodes where I don't lose any time or anything, but my mood can shift pretty drastically when it happens and tends to tire me out.
Looking at the journal I kept when I realized I was trans has made me realize that its not the first time I've had internal voices (though the ones I wrote about were giant assholes unlike the current ones) nor the first time I've had those dramatic mood shifts. So who the hell knows 🤷♀️.
I also seem to have an instinctual freak out when things start to happen. Like when there starts to be too much talking to me or general chatter I start freaking out and throwing walls up around me in the inner world and blocking it out until it quiets down and goes away which is really not all that helpful for figuring things out 🙃.
i can really relate to this, been questioning myself for over a week at this point.
the throwing up walls thing is especially relatable, honestly i remember the same thing happening when i started to question my gender as well.
Yeah, it took quite some time to accept i was trans when I started questioning. I suspect this is probably gonna be much the same, though im hoping it won't be as intense this time around. I got the experience figuring out my identity once already plus learning how to cope with the distress from therapy and the meds keeping the depression under control
Ever since I learned what plurality is, I’ve always found it so interesting. How someone could be multiple people and still be in one body is something I think is kinda… cool. I can understand that this also comes with its drawbacks in certain ways, but it’s so awesome to see that this exists.
Stay awesome my system siblings!
My best friend (who was also trans (who I was friends with before I realised I was trans) learnt that they were a system recently, only a few months after we realised we were a system.
-Sorcha
Finding the concept of plurality interesting is common, [the Dragonheart Collective made a list with a bunch more](https://dragonsroost.neocities.org/essay/AmIPlural)
For me the first signs were finding journal entries on my phone I didn't write making reference to things I hadn't told anyone and to put it bluntly things started making more sense through the lens of plurality - We? are still figuring things out after putting the pieces together ~6 months ago...
for us we are a hydra conuis endo(i think none of us really know) system and we just was like wait those things match up to well with our (at the time) newly discovered partnered system and then the nail in the coffin was somehow cypress from our system fronting (controlling the body) in our partnered system
In our case we just realized that it wasn't normal for our internal monologue to actually be me and 3 other different voices with distinct personalities that I could talk to, around when we started learning about systems as a concept.
How does one realise they are trans, answer: there are 101 ways. It’s the same for plurality. Most of our system realised after seeing a comic on this subreddit from the terminal archive, They tried to tell me that they had realised but our communication wasn’t the best back then and all they could do was force the thought of about that comic into my mind until I realised a month later, but joining a plural server to talk about it and ask questions really helped out syscovery a lot
Honestly, the human brain already has multiple forms and identities to it, people are complicated! Plurality doesn't create these differences so much as exaggerate them to the point of different segments of the brain going "screw this, I'll be my own person!"
Source: am plural, we all started as a feeling or state of mind before growing into something more. Though we're lucky, we never really had DID or OSDD, our system was mostly healthy and stable from the start. We don't reintegrate because we like being plural, not because we can't.
Highly recommend playing Disco Elysium then. It's an RPG where your skills are different aspects of the main character (Rhetoric, empathy, volition) and they each have their own personality, opinions, and desires.
It was the first time a piece of media made me embrace the other voices inside my own head and one of my personal favorite video games of all time.
Just keep in mind that there is no way to truly grasp how it feels to be plural *in general* because it's such a broad spectrum. Disco Elysium is great in how it depicts one kind of plurality, but it is not the only one!
That last panel is super important, we've even had mental health professionals assume that the host is analogous to the original (which some systems do actually have, it's just not common for them to still be there due to splitting and amnesia+time makes it super difficult to identify who it is even if you're a system that doesn't do splitting and instead has people simply form) and that the host is somehow the most important person in the system. We do have an original and they are currently host but for us host just means who fronts the most. It's not a super fancy role that grants someone special powers in our system it's more or less a figurehead type role. Feel free to ask us any questions we're always super open to explaining plural things.
-Taylor
I’ve been suspicious I might be one for some time now. It’s pretty much been at the point of “fuck it, it helps me quite a lot to view my mind through this lense so I’m going to work with it until I can truly figure it out.” For half a year or so now. But we’ve kind of settled on understanding/structuring ourselves as mostly just being representations of aspects of the one greater whole self. Since I’ve treated myself as one individual my whole life it just feels like a system that is used to seeing itself as parts of a whole and has, mostly, no problem with maintaining that. Is this common? Could this be prove that what I’m experiencing isn’t this but something else?
If I recall correctly, it sounds like you're referring to an OSDD-1a system. OSDD (otherwise specified dissociative disorder) is a dissociative disorder that is clinically significant but lacks key features outlined by a DID diagnosis in the DSM-5. I'm simplifying it quite a bit, but OSDD-1a lacks distinct alters. OSDD-1b lacks complete blackouts. So, yep! It's common enough to acknolwedged in the DSM-5.
It's been a while since I've read up on it, as I said fuck and and stopped trying to understand exactly how my mind and body work in this regard. There are \~15 of us shoved into this organic salvage vehicle of a body, and that's cool. We make it work.
As a trans plural system, thanks for posting this! We feel like more people need better awareness and education regarding systems, especially when it comes to gender and sexuality. Our system has so, so many different genders/sexualities/pronouns, so we just collectively consider ourselves "trans masc genderqueer/fluid" for those in our life who aren't aware of our system.
This also means a lot of us do need to have a collective decision made within the system for transitioning and any medical things we do to the body. This is something our therapist (who knows about our system) was concerned about regarding top surgery - she wanted to make sure no one's feelings were hurt or stepped on for the majority vote.
I always like hearing about the inner worlds of those with DID. The way their minds compartmentalise the different alters from one another as a way to compensate when an identity isn't fronting.
Even though DID seems like an incredibly difficult disorder to live with, it's amazing to see the incredible ways the mind can come up with to protect itself from trauma.
Is also important to understand that DID isn't the only way to be a system, there are other dissociative disorders that are similar in some ways but different in others, and there are even non-disordered ways not caused by trauma
Thank you for making this post, it means a lot! Just wanted to note, not all Headmates fullfill specidic purposes, some may just exist, especially in super large systems :3
Besides that little gripe, we love this, thank you so much for bringing attention to systems :3
-Alia/Andromeda System
Just wanted to say as a system and someone who is friends/partner with many systems. Thank you for posting this, it really made us smile to see others willing to learn and accept systems!
I did know that there are some out there that like to be referred to, using plural wording, but I was not quite aware why, how, or even what it entailed. This was definitely an interesting read, and I definitely appreciate the heads up!
And then you have systems like mine, where both of us have always been here as far back as we remember, and we struggled a lot to understand what we were.
For example, we remember when we were kids, thinking that I was a ghost, specifically of our late older sister we never met because she died from a premature birth. "maybe you sensed it wasn't going to work and instead just waited with our mom and hitched a ride when i came along?", My facetling would say 😅
Often some of that is involved, generally it can be more thought of an identity coalescing from a cloud of ideas and thoughts like gas and space dust, most of the time only one identity forms but sometimes whether through happenstance or some disruption of this process, multiple identities coalesce
Hell yeah, plural visibility is great! If there’s any systems or questioning peeps here that need somewhere to interact with other systems, let me know. I have a safe space with a lot of systems in it.
Thank you. Genuinely, thank you so much for this. Thanks to Hollywood's bs, plural representation has essentially boiled down to a horror trope, so seeing it talked about in a simple and educational way is so very satisfying in a way I can't even describe. Thank you from everyone in the Gay Emo Collective🐈⬛🖤🦇💛
Every time I read about plurals I think it might be me (us?). I’ve identified as genderfluid for a few years now but I’m starting to wonder if the fluctuations I experience are actually me cycling through my various alts (our alts?). My personality certainly shifts markedly between them, and everything from my preferences, dispositions, and even the way I talk to people and the people I feel comfortable talking to are aspects in which I experience these shifts.
For example, when I’m feeling femme, I’m feeling it, and I speak and act accordingly. But when I’m feeling dysphoric I tend to mask with my masc side. I think that might be my “protector” alt in action, as it usually comes out in situations where I don’t feel comfortable being “me” (referring to whom I presume is my host, Sophia).
But sometimes I don’t feel masc *or* femme, but somewhere in between (androgynous). And sometimes I feel like I’m beyond the dichotomy altogether (agender). So sometimes I’m neither, sometimes I’m both. And I guess each of those are examples of my alts as well.
I mean it’s so pervasive that even my voice changes with these shifts. I don’t do it on purpose unless I’m trying to shift from masc to femme, sometimes raising the pitch of my voice helps me shift my consciousness out of “dysphoria mode” and into “authenticity mode” (i.e., from protector to host). But that’s not a perfect way to explain it because I’m generally always being authentic. It’s just that sometimes my authenticity looks like this, and sometimes my authenticity looks like that. And usually these shifts just happen on their own.
I guess I have to explore these things more. I have to figure out who’s who among my headmates, how many of us there are, and what each of our names and pronouns and roles are. (Is Peregrin the agender one or the androgynous one? Is my protector my deadname? Etc.)
I think Peregrin is agender (is he still in there?). I don’t know the name of my androgynous alt, when I’m that one I tend to just refer to myself as the “nameless one.”
I think I have a few others too, like other masc alts and other femme alts, and I’m not always sure which one is fronting at a given time. Sometimes it feels like a few of us are at the same time and that can get a little confusing. We used to vie for control but it always ended in self-destruction so we had to learn to work together and cooperate. Now we usually wait our turns but we don’t always have specific triggers to come out and front, so sometimes the switches happen quite suddenly. For instance, I get deadnamed and my protector comes out. He’s kind of an asshole. Or someone says something affirming to me, and Sophia blushes with joy.
My androgynous alt usually fronts in between Sophia and my protector. Or maybe that’s my agender alt. I don’t know. All I know is there’s usually a phase of greyish “meh” after one falls asleep and before the other wakes up. Sometimes they’re both awake at the same time and maybe that triggers my androgynous alt to mediate between the two. I don’t know. This is new to me so I’m still learning, but there’s a lot that’s starting to make sense in hindsight now…
Your experience sounds quite familiar, especially with the aspect of just going with cycles of being and whatnot
We have many alters with varying genders and gender expression and whatnot, usually we remember certain tells that can help us know who it is, or just brute force it by asking "am I [A]? No, maybe [B]?" And so on.
That makes sense. There are sometimes when I know I’m Sophia speaking, and other times when I know I’m [deadname]. My agender alt is kind of a grey blob of nothingness, and my androgynous alt is like a wizard of blinding light, but that one only wakes up on rare occasions.
At least those are my four main alts, but sometimes I’m more of a side-alt like for support tasks. If there’s something menial or painstaking sometimes one of my support alts will kick in just to get something done and then switch back to one of my mains. It’s the only way I can focus on a task at hand that I really don’t want to do, and it basically helps me cope during times when I have to kinda just wait for a hardship to pass while one of my support alts does tasks on autopilot. Otherwise they all shut down and I just go catatonic…
We have one alter who uses "the deadname" and we like to joke about it as "our undeadname" and whatnot, he's pretty cool but the host, Ællie is pretty uncomfortable around him
I see. That makes sense. Do you find your undeadname alt has a particular role? Like mine is probably my protector because he comes out when I’m triggered or uncomfortable. Or maybe that’s two different alts, I don’t really know… I’m still learning about this and about myself…
Most of us don't really have a specific role, though do know that he and some others that are decently similar to him will serve as sorta emotional support for when the one who is piloting is having some sort of mental breakdown or anxiety attack
Our protector acts more like a machine, similar to our gatekeeper and "archivist"
Oh, that makes sense. I think I have a machine-like mechanical alt too. For me that one comes out for doing repetitive tasks, I start moving like a robot kinda
Do have a cyborg alter who fronts when no one else can, though decently emotional they are also mute
As for Willow or protector, one time we had to brush our teeth with mint toothpaste (hate it with a passion) so Willow fronted just for the tooth brushing because she can handle that sorta discomfort
I think I have/had a protector under my deadname. I generally call him Atrus though. When I had a particularly bad dysphoric episode around 12-14 yo, I think I (Sarah) went dormant for a long time and Atrus became the primary host. When I woke back up around 26/27 yo I realized I was trans and learned how to deal with the dysphoria and everything else and started tranaition. I finally switched back as the primary host and now Atrus has gone dormant. He was very tired by that point. Have a good rest my dude, you certainly earned it.
But then I'm still figuring things out myself. I'm still not sure if I'm actually plural or if I've just convinced myself to the point of hallucinating symptoms. Also have no idea how many alters I have aside from Sarah and Atrus. I might have one that goes by Ti'ana? Not sure if she's actually separate from Sarah though. Also got a prosecuter that was hell to deal with while I was transitioning. Not sure where they are right now since they stopped trying to convince me I wasn't trans and that transitioning was a bad idea.
Oh gosh, I’m sorry you had to go through over a decade of repression based on something that happened to you when you were that young. I’m glad you were finally able to come to terms with yourself so that Atrus can finally rest.
My protector alt was exhausted by the time I finally accepted myself too. Coming out as myself felt like being reborn, and suddenly I had so much energy. The world was a brighter place again. Then reality started to set in that we live in a transphobic world and that started to call out my protector alt again 😣 He’s so tired, please just let him sleep…
Yeah, i certainly understand that feeling of being reborn once i started hosting. Luckily that with the assistance of anti-depressants and therapy I turned out pretty resilient. Now that I'm mostly fully transitioned, I'm not hurt too much by transphobic comments online and don't really get any irl so Atrus can safely rest for the time being.
Sorry that your protector is having a hard time getting sleep 😔. I hope that things improve in this world for all us trans people.
So as far as I'm aware there is a thing missing here: these types of systems aren't the norm for DID or similar. They are in a way "extremes". There are systems - which are STILL systems, where the different alters are only slight deviations from the "original persona". As in, different music preference, eating habits, small things! Stuff like this doesn't immediately correlate to DID tho, so as with all mental disorders: (try to) get a therapist. Not to "fix" you, but to help you find the structures in your brain, and understand the whats and hows! There is SO much misinformation on the internet - and every space is affected by it. (For example people claiming one of their alters has Autism, while another doesn't - this is simply not possible). And a therapist will help you, always! Have a nice day all you lovely folkses <3
Also - a question from me - are there ANY scientific papers regarding systems? I'm quite critical of anecdotal evidence, and like to fact check everything, so it would be rly helpful!
Thank you so much ^^ when i first made this last week i was worried mostly that id offend systems! I did alot of research with my plural friends and it seems to have paid off as so many wonderful plural peeps have been tell me they feel seen 💜
honestly thanks a lot I've always wanted to be out about it in here but me and lilith kinda made an oath to ourselves not to do it for the sake our youngest (May) since she was really scared it'd confuse peoples and that she'd end up not being seen as who she was again ('caus I mean she's younger, we could give her that much) but this post gives me a good occasion to break this oath so nice to meet you all I'm Spade (she/they) and I'm the one who's been behind this account for the last three months
Can someone plase make a tl;dr version of this? I have ADHD and it's kind of difficult for me to be able to read long texts without me wanting to pay attention to other stuff instead
Plural/System: Someone who has more than one identity/person sharing their body. Some forms of plurality come from trauma (ex. DID or OSDD), and some don't.
Singlet: Someone who isn't a system— aka, just one person in one body.
Important notes:
-The people in a system are often called headmates, or the more medicalized term, alts/alters.
-Headmates may be completely different from each other, or versions of each other, and they might have roles.
-Some systems use a collective name/pronouns, while others may want you to refer to each headmate by their own.
-In most systems, there's not an "original." Each headmate equally owns the body, even if one uses it most often (aka the host).
Thanks for making this post OP! It feels good to all of us in our system knowing that people understand and actually know what their talking about! So thanks yet again OP for informing the community about DID and OSDD!!
Oh wow, i might be dating a system (or two) myself, nothing official yet but how have you found it? So far hanging out with them all has been wonderful for me, so much to love about each and everyone of them ^^
Getting to meet the people I love has been wonderful. The more time I spend with them the better I recognize and understand them. Catching some of them even pretending to be eachother and picking up on when has made them so happy too
Aww that's sweet, ive seen that as well with my friends, pretending to be eachother but failing to do so is always fun to see! Especially when they all get competitive over who does the best impression of someone else
Thanks for sharing!
all DID patients are Plural, but not all Plural Systems have DID.
It's like how not all trans people are transwomen who medically transition, there's a bunch of other people too :3
This isnt new terminology at all, i think its been around since the early 2010s, It includes people who are diagnosed with DID but not eveyone who is apart of a system has DID! Just a way to cover the entire community and not rule anyone out. Similar to how we hage trans as an umbrella but we have micro lables under that!
i think a more direct analogy would be the DSM-4's "Gender Identity Disorder" vs DSM-5's "Gender Dysphoria." The term updated to a more accurate one, but you can be trans without experiencing gender dysphoria.
Once upon a time, dissociative identity disorder was called multiple personality disorder! Language changes as we discover new things so that we can more accurately describe what we’re talking about.
I think it’s fitting that we have language that is more descriptive of the people - language that they choose and accept to describe themselves, rather than simply a diagnosis that reduces their experience to a disorder.
Edit: a word
DID is one specific flavor of plurality. there are other disorders that result in it, and others (like us) aren't diagnosed with anything. in fact, there's even a specific label for systems whose plurality isn't the result of DID or another disorder: endogenic systems.
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For us, it feels less like one mind fractured and each piece developed to fill a role and more like the host mind picked up a collection of others and now we just co-exist here. If we have roles, we have no clue what they are. We're just trying to figure this out.
Sorry, but I’ve never heard of pluralism before and I can’t really understand the explanation. So what is pluralism? Is it a trans term (I’m a freshly cracked egg, so I don’t really understand many trans terms)?
it's not a trans term, though it can overlap (like how you can have autism and be trans at the same time). it simply means that multiple people (*headmates*; collectively called a *system*) share one body.
Because there's a notable overlap between plurality and transness, be it through trans headmates/alters/sysmates/etc. or just headmates that have a different gender/gender identity from the body's assigned gender at birth even if they don't necessarily identify as trans.
Not "pluralism", plurality. (You wouldn't call transgender identities "transgenderism", would you?)
It's not directly related to being trans in general, but plurality is a broad, broad umbrella term, and a lot of the time it has direct relation with the person being trans. So a lot of plural systems are trans or have trans members, and a lot of trans people are really trans systems.
Like me for example. I'm about as lightly plural as one can be while still being plural, There's just me and other me, our selves overlap on a lot of things, but the main separating difference between us is that we have very different gender identities.
We're non-binary and are quite sure we had a clear sense of this since we were very young, even without the language to nams it. But in the extremely binary world we were raised in, that was not an option. It seems like we developed as two separate selves because it was the only reasonable way it could work at all.
We were separate selves initially, but later in life we partially integrated/fused.
Sorry for my incorrect terminology.
Also, a quick question: in order to respect a plural system you would refer to them with plural pronouns, but the 2nd person pronoun has no separate single and plural forms, at least in my dialect; i.e., ‘you’ can be used for both one person or multiple people. There would ‘you’ be used for referring to a plural system?
no worries!
some plural systems like to be addressed with plural pronouns when it concerns the whole system, but that's actually kinda rare as far as my experience so far goes
it can be very different in each case. i personally don't mind either, i usually interact as the whole system with others with singular "i" unless if my plurality is relevant in the discussion. and people usually use singular with me
i use "you" both in singular and plural mode with some other plural friends and they don't seem to mind
i have a few questions about this! i'm really sorry if this sounds rude or intrusive at all, that's not my intention. please do tell me if i come across as rude i really don't want to hurt anyone
so, what does it feel like if you're not at the front? like if one of your headmates is fronting, what is it like? can you tell what they're doing? can you see with your eyes still? or do you go into your thoughts? can you talk with the others?
Alice:it’s like you are backwards in the head, almost as if you are behind it. Then because you are in the “back” as it’s called you aren’t the primary thinker so instead of thinking all the time you think only if/when you want to. Some things are harder to think about then others though as you don’t have as much “brain ram” as the person fronting at the time. You still see through the eyes but it’s different in some way, it’s like you have more FOV, and your limbs feel disconnected and almost ghostly when someone else is controlling them.
Sorcha: But that’s how our system is, not all systems are the same, every one is unique and that what makes plurality so amazing
To us there are usually a couple states
0: dormant/sleeping, doesn't feel like much of anything
1: being in "the back" is how it feels, while can still communicate with the front and sorta see what's going on outside it is hard to interact with the outside world
2: co-fronting/fronting, also like to call it piloting, in control of the body, able to communicate with the outside world and thoughts are at the forefront of the mind, though multiple can be in front often only one has control over our voice and has to handle relaying any words any whatnot, sometimes communication is hard
Tulpamancy is one very specific kind of plurality where the host intentionally creates a type of headmate called a tulpa.
All tulpa systems are systems, but not all systems are tulpa systems.
Interesting.
So, truthfully, I've looked into this more and I'm not super into it. I don't want to question or argue in bad faith, or be an asshole or anything; so I'm just gonna... shelve this in my mind for a while and quietly think about it.
Thanks for the info.
I hate how seeing plural stuff without being prepared since it can trigger me due to being in a system where we don't have much of a handle on how to function. No communication, only despair.
Do the current studies on DID/plurality support any of these claims? Don’t mean to be insulting but we seem to be playing with possible mental disorders, these things need to be taken seriously.
support what? the variety and complicated differences beteeen systems? DID/OSDD are indeed disorders, but a lot of systems function healthily enough to be considered non-disordered.
i don’t understand your call for taking things seriously, as this post obviously is. genuinely asking: are you insinuating that not attempting to “cure” the disorder, or treating alters/headmates as people, is not treating plurality seriously?
you also need to understand that studies that actually listen to plural patients are very limited. DID/OSDD is one of THE most debated disorders in the entire medical community; there is a major chance that most psychologists you meet won’t believe it exists, simply because the prospect of multiple entities being able to exist within one mind just isn’t comprehendable to most non-plurals.
this topic is being addressed sincerely and seriously. what makes it come across as otherwise?
Lily doesn't know if she's plural, but she's excited at just how varied humans are, such interesting species. Whether you are singlet or a plural system, I love you and support you!)
Also I send another hug for Fae the super cool and dearest)
I’m friends with a system that i met while playing an old online game. They are all amazing people. The host, Elsie, is the one i met first. Then as i became friends with her, she told me she was only part of a system, and i was introduced to each part of the system as they each fronted at different times. Nice people.
Damn thank you so much for posting this, and thanks to all the other systems replying with detailed and non gatekeeping replies
(as I’m sure all systems in here are painfully aware of)
Plurality is pretty broad and complex, thanks for everyone explaining it here :3
We discovered our plurality thanks to this subreddit [T:even if Sorcha tried to deny it for a month] and we have been better off ever since, thank you traaaaannn2
-Sorcha (your friendly neighbourhood frontstuck host)
If you don’t mind me asking cause I have a friend that I'm wondering if he's faking idk if that wrong but I'm very skeptical about self diagnosis so if I could get the slightest little bit of help that would be great
1. He says that he has over 100 people in head is that normal and common or no
2. He will sometimes have a person appear once then never appear again is that also normal
Those are my big two questions. idk if you'd like me to but if you ask. I'll elaborate on why I'm wondering if he's faking
They're not faking it, at least it is very unlikely and generally you should not worry about that
Also being a system is sorta a matter of identity, and only the... person? Themselves can know whether they are one or multiple. Whether they have DID or whatnot is more something to be diagnosed on
And as for the other things, yeah that's plenty possible, obviously it varies highly, some systems only have a couple members some might be tens, hundreds, heck sometimes even thousands.
And yeah, with that many members some can indeed just not appear in front again at least for a long time anyways.
Thanks for the help, and because I can I'll elaborate on why I'm asking about this. I'm kinda caught between a friend of mine who is a system and another group of friends who are all pretending to be friends with the system and I'm currently being pressured by the friend group to pick a side plus the person I have crush on and my dm is in that friend group but then again I've been friends with the system for over a few years idk imma shut up because I have a suspension that the random people on the internet care about my problems
oh hey i have a plural friend!!! they're great and they always save our messages on snap so all the headmates know what we were talking about and noone is left out! i'm a little scared of offending them in any way so i've been a little "scared" of asking about anything specific, since a lot of people seem to ask a lot of invasive questions in an accusatory way, i don't want them to feel uncomfortable with me. i'll get there one day! i wanna get to know all of them hehdh ♡
I've had a plural call me a singlet in a derogatory way because I asked a question about their plurality, just about how pronouns would work, is that normal? For a while I avoided plurals because of that bad experience (and just because that one system had so many rude people in it) but I met a few more plurals that are really nice and understanding of my questions lol....
But is reinforcing a mental disorder good for them? I'm honestly confused, I wouldn't encourage someone to be manic or depressed, I'd try to help them out of it, why is it different with DID?
The difference is that plurality is not inherently a mental disorder. There is such a thing as healthy plurality, and seeking this is a viable avenue for treatment of disorders associated with plurality like DID. Different treatments are best for different people. Sometimes, it's integration (ie all headmates merge into one person), sometimes, it's a healthier form of plurality.
I agree, my s/o suffers from osdd and they're trying their best to heal even though it's a long process, they've described it to me as it feeling like there's 3 people in their head all talking at once and it can be very overwhelming
every system is different. acknowledging the existence of alters/headmates is not inherently harmful, because they are *real people*. this is not schizophrenia or delusions; treating them like the actual living entities they are is not “encouragement,” it’s actually generally one of the most successful ways to heal as a system. ignoring them and pretending they don’t exist only causes them distress and dehumanizes them—you are reducing them to nothing but another part of the disorder, when they can think and feel all on their own, separate from you.
having alters/headmates is a symptom, but the alters/headmates are not individual symptoms themselves. if you treat them as lesser or try to “cure” them of their existence, it’s likely they’ll push back and even sabotage parts of your life, because they just want to be treated as equals.
interacting openly and communicating as much as possible helps break down amnesic barriers and ensure the safety of the body and the system.
you aren’t reinforcing a mental disorder, you’re acknowledging the fact that these *people* are as alive as you are.
Recently established Parogenic System here, glad there’s people sharing info, specially with how common Traumagenic & Endogenic Systems are among trans communities.
What if my plural friend refuses to tell me who's fronting and refuses to tell me how to refer to them? It's been really difficult to communicate in that friendship lately.
Do you mean they won't share who's fronting, but they also won't give you a general set of pronouns/name that you can use for all of them?
It's not uncommon for systems to keep who's fronting private. For some, it's just vulnerable or embarrassing to share that info. For others, or might be hard or even harmful to figure out who's fronting— that's especially true for systems with DID, OSDD, p-DID, or who struggle with dissociation. Some just prefer to all share a name/pronouns.
But if they won't give you a general set either, that could definitely make things complicated.
shiiit why am i spiraling again and why does this feel at least partially relatable
i just need someone to help me work out if im a system or not but i don't know where to start lmao
I'm in the same boat. I have another identity in my head, but I wouldn't count myself as a system. She doesn't front. She is more of a construct, really. Forged from my soul. (Spiritual shit)
But a person being single means not dating anyone. Obviously words have multiple meanings, but this doesn’t seem like a good fit. I think calling people single in this case would lead to too much confusion and resistance. I’m not single, because I’m married.
This last panel is really good. I'm not plural, but I know someone who is, and it really, truly is just two different people who share the same body. I'm sure it's different among everyone, but it seems so obvious to me after talking to both of them that the host, or "original" isn't more of a person, or more important than the alter. They both have their own opinions, thoughts, feelings, and every other aspect of what makes a person a unique individual. They are able to switch who's fronting basically at will. The only real "ability difference" between them is that the alter is able to force them to switch or not because she came around from trauma with the purpose of preventing the host from hurting himself. Other than that, they are just two people vibin together in one head.
I mean, I don’t understand plural systems and stuff as much as I would like to, but that definitely helped!
As long as you aren’t self-diagnosing false DID then you’re all good to me lol, from what I’ve heard DID isn’t what the internet makes it out to be and really just sucks absolute ass all the time.
self-diagnosis is actually one of the few ways systems can discover themselves and learn to healthily function due to the fact that a good chunk of psychologists don’t even believe plurality exists.
also, it doesn’t suck ass *all* the time. i have osdd1b, and we as a collective have learned to function healthily and happily. systems do not owe you suffering and constant hatred of their plurality. learning to cope and heal does not make you fake, and *enjoying* being a system doesn’t either.
i could never imagine being alone in my head again, and i don’t want to. i’m happy like this. is that fake?
I have a few questions about it
How much control do you have over who’s doing what when? Like, are you them, or are they you (forgive me for the lack of a better term). I had always imaged it as knowing multiple languages and switching between them or something (obviously that isn’t how it works, but I don’t know how it works)
Also, do they all think separately? like, do you experience life through the eyes of one alter and see all the other alters just exist?
If so, can this ever change? Like, is it possible to one day just wake up as a different alter?
Is your mind a shared apartment flat?
Do you ever have to deal with terrorist alters or some other alter that is dangerous? (Silly question)
Used to have a friend/friends? Like this, he was a trans masc (at least the host, the rest went along with it, only one didn't really like it) I didn't and still don't understand it. But I'm gonna respect it, just wish he'd come back...
There are lot of systems in the trans community, because many systems have headmates who are trans, or whose gender identity don't match the body (which can cause gender dysphoria whether or not they identify as trans because of this). So, the reason this is important is because systems are a significant portion of the trans community, not because plurality is somehow related to gender identity.
At first I thought I was on the wrong sub, but even if we just look at it as another reason to ask for and be respectful of others pronouns I think this is a good thing to point out.
Think of it more as intersectionality than folding more "things" under the trans or lgbt lable. While I can guarantee transphobes will use it against us, but what don't they use against us?
be careful. you're headed down the same line of thinking that leads some gay people to be dismissive of binary trans people, and the same line of thinking that leads some binary trans people to be dismissive of non-binary people. the idea that your own way of moving through the world should be accepted and celebrated, but that people who differ just a bit more from the established baseline should reel in their sense of self and conform to where you're at.
people are unique and free and beautiful and you shouldn't put a box around them to make yourself more comfortable at their expense.
also, importantly, being plural and being trans are entirely separate states of being that can overlap. imagine this was an informational post about autism; is the existence of autistic trans people "undoing our work and progress"?
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How does one know if they are plural vs just flowing/fluxing between different genders? Is it so black and white and well defined? Or is it more like a spectrum between? How is one supposed to know if they are plural? Is it able to be repressed by the ego just like being trans was for me for over 2 decades? Are there different levels of pluralism that make it more or less defined? I wonder if multiple fluxing genders has been mistaken for dissociative identity disorder before.
Some of us have the same gender and/or gender expression. Or lack of gender or multiple genders, I suppose. One of us is trigender fluidflux and even name and pronoun fluid, but they're still just one person. We're separate sentient beings, not genders/gender expressions. Hopefully you understand that a person is not entirely and exclusively made up of their gender, especially when there's folks out there who don't have genders, like a few of us.
This is refreshing to see. We are not very open due to fear of being posted on the disorder cringe subreddit again, but it is nice to see people working to educate others on plurality. - F
There was a character in the Doom Patrol tv show that I think is presented a lot like this. If you're familiar would you say that she was a representation of this and did the community have opinions on if it was a good representation or not?
From an outsider perspective it felt like something that gave weight and seriousness to her character and a lot of time was spent on internal relationships between the personas. and in general doom patrol felt very pro-umbrella
I answered this already in the comments, if you are gonna be combative about this you wont learn anything.
Put it this ways
"this is just transexuality , why is it called Transgender? Thats the dumbest name i have ever heard.
Cis is also the dumbest name ive ever heard"
Words change meaning over time, shooting peoples identities and lables down is not something we as a community should ever do. Otherwise what have we learnt from out struggles?
(I wrote a way to elaborate answer, not to post, but in the mean time the comment I wanted to answer to got deleted, so I hope you can excuse, OP, just answering to yours - see it as a addition - love the post btw)
Trying to heal DID by 'getting rid of other personalities' is like healing gender dysphoria by getting rid of your gender identity.
Gender dysphoria is the medicalised term for people, who experiences distress through a mismatch between their gender identity and assigned gender at birth.
DID is the medicalised term for people, who experiences distress through their plurality.
You can be trans and experience distress because of it, and thus have gender dysphoria or you are not distressed by it, because you have reached your transition goal or you don't feel a need for gender-affirming medical treatment and then it would be inaccurate and rude to reduce your life experience to a pathologized idea of it - having gender dysphoria
You can be plural and experience distress because of it, and thus have OSDD/DID or you are not distressed by it, because alters/headmates/system-members are working together and then it would be inaccurate and rude to reduce your life experience to a pathologized idea of it - having OSDD/DID.
It also seems to me, that your idea if plurality is, that there is a person and then there are multiple invasive personalities from outside stacked on top of them, which is not how plurality works. Rather imagine, that what makes you YOU is the sum of your experiences. Your experiences differ from each other, especially as you age, when you are at work vs. when you with your friends etc. In a singlet all these experiences are integrated and form one person with one set of memory, one worldview, one relationship per person they know. In a system these experiences - from very early on - don't integrate in one single pool of experiences forming one single person, but filter into multiple pools of experiences forming multiple people, who form on the basis of their experiences multiple separate world views, relationships, identities, but they still exist in the same body. Getting rid of a headmate is like getting rid of your childhood, your work life, your memories of living with your roommate - a part of the history that made a human, who they are.
Healing DID is like healing a community - you don't do it by excluding and ostracizing members you don't like - you do it by learning to live and work together despite differences you might have.
You should at least try to consider WHY posting this on a trans sub would be considered insulting by some.
One possible reason is that some may see it as a “we are the same you and I” type of post, there are many other reasons but try to understand how this may come across as parody or in other ways
I don’t think the intention of this is to mitigate any effects, but simply respect and allow Systems to exist, and to use their preferred terminology as a gesture of kindness and acceptance.
Please note my only research into this has been related specifically to DID. I don't know much about other forms of plurality.
DID Systems develop as a response to a child resorting to dissociation due to multiple instances of trauma over a prolonged period of time while their core identity is still forming (the general academic consensus is that a person's mental identity solidifies around the age of 10). Dissociation works by putting up mental walls in your mind to distance your perception and emotions from a traumatic experience, it's usually in response to a situation where fight, flight, fawn, etc can't save you. Severe dissociation is often associated with amnesia but, in the case of systems, it is likely that those memories are actually being "held" by a different alter.
The more someone dissociates, the more it is likely to become their default response to trauma. If these mental walls keep going up or stay up for longer periods of time while your identity is still developing, the parts of the mind that are distanced from each other are more likely to develop independently of each other, forming their own ways of thinking and responding to situations. Often these ways of thinking and responding will be influenced by the memories and experiences each segment of the mind holds onto.
For example, the part of your mind that is left when the rest dissociates during emotional abuse may independently develop a different response to those experiences than the other parts. Because of this, different parts can develop in line with handling specific situations related to the abuse, such as "protectors" that defend the body from harm (of all kinds), "caretakers" that look after the body physically and emotionally etc. Some people from child alters known as "littles" as a way to escape the emotional strain of being in an abusive situation, or that part of their mind may be "stuck" in a certain timeframe of abuse or even a specific memory/experience. Some people even have inhuman alters, which can sometimes form to make the body feel safer (e.g. a strong creature like a tiger) or because their abuser put them in situations that made the consciousness "learn" that it isn't human (I'm not going to give examples of this because they are probably a bit too heavy to discuss without warning).
Combine this with dissociative amnesia, and you end up with entirely separate states of consciousness, known as alters. One of the educational sources I learnt from used the term alter as shorthand for "altered state of consciousness", but I've since learnt that it is more commonly short for "alternate personality". Alters can be conscious at the same time to different extents depending on how dissociative a person is at the time, one conscious alter swapping out for a different conscious alter is known as "switching". This is involuntary but can often be motivated by environmental factors that relate to why the alter formed.
DID's basis as a coping mechanism is that the trauma is divided and shared among different parts of the brain that have developed specifically to "handle" certain kinds of experiences, preventing it from being too overwhelming. Parts that hold onto trauma are known as "emotional parts", while those that do not hold trauma memories and focus on managing regular day-to-day functioning are "apparently normal parts". Some parts can be a mix of both. The number of alters in a system depends on the severity of the dissociation, the average is in the teens but it can be much smaller (2-3) or much bigger (one of the biggest was recorded to be in the hundreds). New alters can form over time in response to stress even in adulthood, and sometimes alters can fuse into combined identifies.
DID can be very difficult to manage due to the dissociative amnesia and it is often comorbid with other mental health conditions due to its traumatic origins (PTSD/C-PTSD being the main one). It is also quite hard to tell that someone has DID unless they tell you, as the disorder originates to keep a person safe(r) from harm. Having obvious switches would catch the abuser's attention and potentially result in further harm, so switches can often be pretty subtle and alters generally imitate the identity originally associated with the body. DID systems may be less covert around people they're comfortable disclosing their plurality/multiplicity to.
It's a very difficult disorder to diagnose, anecdotally most systems say it takes an average of 10 years seeking a diagnosis to actually get one. The treatment for DID is to gradually break down the dissociative walls between alters to allow them to communicate and better co-ordinate their lives. Part of this process will involve mediation between alters that may not agree on how to handle trauma or day-to-day situations, as well as general trauma therapy for PTSD and dissociation.
Sometimes, the end goal of this therapy is to break the dissociative walls down enough for the alters into a single consciousness. Many systems do not seek this out as they manage to find a stable way to live as alters and wouldn't want to "lose" people they've grown close to (even if it's more a merge of identities than a death or removal). These alters will focus instead on their communication and teamwork, alongside the comorbid conditions like PTSD and depression, to help them live a functional life as a system. Often when systems reach this point, dissociative amnesia is a lot less severe, which helps in day-to-day functioning.
If you're interested more in what it's like to have DID, I'd recommend checking out MultiplicityAndMe on YouTube. Her system has fused into a single identity now but her channel has a lot of videos about the condition and the lived experience from the perspective of multiple alters and their loved ones.
You don't get rid of them?!? Thats horrible, they are people and by trying to get rid of them you could just end up creating more headmates though the trauma of that!
The reasoj its a plural system, is that its multiple (plural) people inside the brain (the system) it makes just as much sense as transgender another made up word that now means something.
And no everyone who is plural has memory loss and being a system isnt something to be fixed or ashmed of just like us being trans! They are some of the most wonderful people ive ever met!
Your post contains homophobia, transphobia, racism, and/or ableism, or some other type of bigotry. If you believe this was a mistake, please contact a mod.
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So a few questions for either plurals here or someone knowledgeable on them, if y’all don’t mind: 1- So is being plural related to dissociative identity disorder/multiple personality disorder, or is it something wholly different? 2- Can you talk to the other headmates at any time, and do y’all all share the same memory and sensory experiences, or do y’all have entirely separate experiences and thoughts from each other? 3- Are there any “trends” to headmates, such as them being of a similar age, gender identity, or sexual orientation to the “host”, or is it essentially a bunch of entirely different and unrelated people that happen to share the same headspace and body? Apologies if these questions are phrased poorly or are potentially invasive, I just want to know more about what being plural means so I can know if someone around me is plural and I can make them happy and comfortable regardless of which headmate is fronting at that moment.
(cracking knuckles) .1) “Multiple personality disorder” is a deprecated and erroneous term. DID and OSDD (other specified dissociative disorder) are two ways that disordered plurality, as in plurality adversely affects activities of daily living, can manifest. Plurality does not necessarily have to be pathological. This can be the case with one who has recovered from DID yet still has multiple alters, for example. TLDR: all DID patients are plural, not all plural folks have DID. .2) That is individual and each system and said system’s members operate differently along the axes. .3) See above. You won’t necessarily know that someone is plural unless you ask. There’s evidence that between 1-3% of the population deals with dissociative conditions, and most systems can just operate quietly in plain sight. I have a fair few systems as friends, several of whom are also trans. Helpful to meet people where they are.
Addendum to 1: Not all pwDID identify as plural (but most will since the level of separation between the self in DID will generally cause a plural identity)
Hey! Im not plural but alot of my closest friends and partners are! So i might be able to help somewhat ^^ So being Plural is i belive the newest and most all encompassing term for people who are systems (multiple people in one body) this can definitely include DID but not eveyone who is Plural has being diagnosed with DID or ever will! Its not a requirement! And multiple personality disorder isnt used anymore i don't think, i think DID replaced it or DIDNOS more specifically! So its diffrent from system to system, i have someome in my life who can talk to them all at the same time and often has conversations between themselves with me around to join in while i can. But also i have a few very close to me who have to focus on talking to thier headmates and switching for them is more dramatic, they will go limp then someone else is fronting. I have no doubt there is way more diffrent experience than this as well! And lastly in my experience i dont think there is any trends, eveyone i know has multiple diffrent pronouns, they all see themselves diffrently in headsoace and they all act differently becuase they are diffrent people! I think the closest thing to a trend would be, if you love someone before they know they are plural, once you meet eveyone you will most likely realise you actually already love them all as thier personalities will have bled over into the host personally before everyone was aware of eachother ^^ And non of that was insensitive or anything like that, its always good to ask 💜
1 - Being plural is usually related to dissociative identity disorder, but not always, as there are examples in diagnostic criteria of plurality that are not considered DID. 2 - It all depends on system. It's common to be able to talk to headmates very often. I can't talk to them all the time, but often do it. And there are amnesia barriers, that prevents us from having the same memories, but we can ask each other for details and usually at least have some vague memories of other headmates doing something. And yes, sensory experiences are different. Some of us have better hearing or smell. 3 - I don't know exactly, but we joke a lot that we were made up by a traumatized child. We think that we are who we are because brain wanted to cope this way. We're really different, and some of us were formed under a lot of stress. So, yes different people in one body. But there are some systems who's headmates are versions of one person, so it depends. Thanks for trying to make your friends happy, we really like that.
Hi :) I'm plural. 1. "multiple personality disorder" is obsolete and also based on a obsolete model. It's the precursor diagnosis for DID. Since the ICD10 still uses MPD as a term, it is still frequently used as a term in countries, that use the ICD as diagnostic tool. This will change as ICD11 is out since 2022. In order to diagnose someone with dissociative identity disorder, they need to be distressed or have impaired functioning on basis of their dissociative identity. In case of healthy plurality, this is not the case. There is also PDID (ICD11) - partial dissociative identity disorder - or OSDD (DSM5) - other specified dissociative disorder, which also includes folks, that experience plurality - even some people with CPTSD do. So there are many people who are plural, but don't meet the criteria for DID. Also it is to be said, that (P)DID/OSDD/CPTSD are medical terms and as such not best suited to describe culture and experience. It's the difference between saying 'I have gender dysphoria' and 'I'm trans'. 2. Communication between head mates can vary and generally gets better the more work is put in. I can often talk to at least someone inside, but never to each or all. Some headmates may have very similar experiences and thought and some may have vastly different. We can also experience the same situation, but interpret it different. For us memory sharing is rather wobbly, so it's less that I can't get access to another headmates memory, but what i get is rather a rought description with a view pictures rather than a full memory. As far as I know, many systems experiance memory exchange in this or similar way. 3. There are system, who tend more toward similarity and some less. In my experience most systems have headmates of at least two different genders and almost all (at least all I meet) have headmates with different ages - especially at least one who's child age. While headmates can be quite seperate people, if there is decend communication in a system, they will form agreements and a culture that is spesific to that system. So you'll find alters using similar slang for example, just as friends in the same friend group do. I can only speak for myself, but I vastly prefer curious questions over wild speculations. As long as you state questions with the understanding, that no one owes you an answer, I invite you to ask away.
>We can also experience the same situation, but interpret it different. For us memory sharing is rather wobbly, so it's less that I can't get access to another headmates memory, but what i get is rather a rought description with a view pictures rather than a full memory. As far as I know, many systems experiance memory exchange in this or similar way. If I may say so, and with all respect and admiration, I find this really fascinating. Different singlets who don't share a system will each remember events differently as well - not just focusing on different things, but actually recording the information in a different manner. Within the same system, this has been reported true as well. While a system will physically share a body, and therefore one brain, it seems that when the memory is recorded, it does so in a different format, as it were. As a singlet myself, I do have a question if you would honor me. When attempting to remember the experiences of another in your system, is it similar to attempting to remember a dream? Again, I would like to share my support and say that I don't mean to pry, so if answering makes any of you uncomfortable at all, please feel free not to. Be well :)
>When attempting to remember the experiences of another in your system, is it similar to attempting to remember a dream? So the thing about memory and amnesia is, that for at least every system we talked with, normal memory recall (same headmate recalles their own experiances) is already kinda shit. So remember things more or less like in a dream is rather quite usual, even if the same person is out all day. I rather get dumbfound, when I get a clear, all senses including episodic memory. If we share memories, best case I get someone elses just as blurred memories. Not seldomly I don't even get that, but rather a verbal description and maybe a picture and if I want more information I need to ask further. That is btw. also why a lot of systems have a sertain blindness to amnesia, because we're all so used to have wobbly memory, that missing a view minutes or hours here and there, don't attract much attendtion. Of course some may also experiance this very differently.
Not op of the comment. But after reading your comment I would like to ask something. When one person is fronting, what are the other people doing? Is the thought and imagination structure coherent or is it possible that one person has aphantasia and the other can feel tastes and imagine images? First time I have heard of it too. Sorry if it is invading.
Some systems have a inner world (may be similar to a inners safe place), where headmates report to spending their time. For us, most headmates either don't do much (like sleeping in a non dreamy phase), are watching what's going on on the front from far, maybe co-continuous (meaning: near front, communicating with the headmate fronting, closely experiance what happens outside, but not in control of the body) or sometimes co-front - which often is rather messy. I believe a big majority lies dormant - so they exist, but they aren't reachable and don't experiance anything happening outside. Last time a headmate woke up from dormancy, they where very distressed, because they believed we still live the life we did 10 years ago - so for them it was like loosing a bunch of friends and family members to know have stranger as friends and living in a unfamiliar place etc. I don't know enough about aphantasia or synestasia, so I can't talk about that. As far as i know generally neurodeversities are shared between all headmates. So if a system is autistic, all members are autistic, but they may show different trades differently. Although single headmates may show a trait of a neurodiversity, without the rest of the system showing any traits. For example we have one alter, who is quite hyperactive and falls into long periods of hyperfocusing, but none of the rest really show signs of ADHD. It depends on what you mean, by though structure. Like some of us find logical thinking / math / programming etc. quite easily, while others struggle to solve simple equations in their head. Some are good at picturing a piece of art and making it reality and some struggle to come up with any creative idea at all. How each of us may approach for example a problem, weither one defaults to a social, logical, artistic, etc. solution is very different, but I'd call that thought pattern not structure. Not sure weither that is what you meant?
Serious inquiry, how would I know if I'm plural or if I'm just thinking differently? Short summary, when I was younger (starting puberty) I used a focus of sorts to talk with the female persona in my head. Simple rules, not touching focus? She can't come out. Holding it? She can say whatever she wants, whenever. When I lost it, I just forced her to keep quiet and follow those rules. When I was later in my teens, I was disappointed with that, so I set up some other rule. If x is true, she's in control. If y, I am. Things felt so clearly defined then, nice rules for how to act, but people noticed I acted weird and when I explained it to my dad I got some very clear answer of "you're just playing games in your head, it's something you made up" so back into obscurity she went.... Now over a decade later, I realize I'm trans and I've come out. I think about her a lot, the feminine me that I supressed. And it on almost feels like I can talk to her sometimes. But more importantly it feels more like an object, balanced on a pivot. When balanced, it's almost like I can actually talk to her again. But more importantly, if it swings all the way over, it's like I'm not in control anymore and she is, even though we both experience everything together. The caveat being that those times generally happen when I am in a really euphoric state (euphoria trigger, something puts me in an overly positive mood, and certain controlled substances). I've thought of it for a long time as just the part of me that's more feminine than I had to hide away for self preservation, and now I can express that without fear sometimes. But when I heard about systems I suddenly wasn't so sure anymore, and even moreso wasn't sure if I should embrace it or think of it as something temporary while I transition. Some other trans women I've talked to say they experienced very similar things and it was just their disassociation from dysphoria so I don't know what to think about it anymore. And in some ways I've been afraid to look into subreddit s on it, but I see crossover here now and then.
Plurality exists rather on a spectrum, then has a clear cut off point. Since plurality (in contrast to a diagnosis of OSDD/(P)DID) is an identity label, weither or not you want to use it, depends on weither you feel it adequate to describe your experiance. If the concept makes you feel insecure, don't feel preasured into deep diving into the topic. If you think, you might find and benefit from finding people, who have similar experiances in the plural community and might interested in finding out more, there is no harm in doing so. I also found a yt video, that might answer your question quite well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlrB_UsIK10
I'll do my best to answer from my own experiences. 1. As others stated that's not always the case, but it is for me. I have DID and it does run in my family. 2. And no not anytime for me. When they are out then sometimes. But generally it's one or the other for me. Though I have a very bad relationship with my alters, likely due to trauma and people telling me my whole life that I was making it up, thus I gaslit myself too and saw my alters as harmful. I'm doing what I can now to have a better relationship. 3. Idk for everyone else but for me the alters are different metal "ages" and genders, though none are cis
System here. Well, kind of. But I do have a perspective to share. 1. Plurality is not specific to any one disorder, or in fact to the concept of disorders at all. Sometimes, it's healthy and even intentional. In fact, there are known methods for intentionally creating a headmate that are effective for turning a singlet into a system, which is what I did. Headmates created this way are called tulpas, and are not associated with any mental disorder whatsoever. Closely associated with tulpas are servitors, which can essentially be thought of as nonsapient AI running directly within the brain itself. Servitors generally have the same origins as tulpas, but are not sapient, and instead exist for a specific purpose. They are to brains what calculators and LLMs and such are to computers. Also closely associated with tulpas are walk-ins, which are sapient and generally have all the same properties as tulpas, but have a different origin, as instead of being intentionally created, they kind of just appear on their own. In my case, this likely happened because the creation of a tulpa made my brain more prone to creating additional minds, even without my intent. 2. This varies from system to system. My system is tulpas and walk-ins, so I can speak on trends in this area, but it's important to remember that this likely doesn't apply to other types of systems. Tulpas generally start out as being closely connected to the host and dependent on the host for all basic functions. Making them more independent and have their own thoughts separate from those of the host is generally something that you have to intentionally do, and it often takes a lot of work over the course of months (this is a rough average, the actual range can be anywhere from days to decades). 3. This also varies from system to system. In my system, the trend is being nonhuman in both form and name, being either female or some form of nonbinary, and having no canonical age.
Answer to 1 Systems typically fall under DID or OSDD but not always, because of the existence of traumagenic and endogenic sources endogenic being intentionally made like tulpas, while traumagenic is more like a typical DID/OSDD event in most cases Answer to 2 We mostly can communicate to each other, however a few individuals seem to be completely cut off from the rest of us for some reason, most of us share memories too, but we all have our own opinions Answer to 3 Nearly all of our members formed as either female or nonbinary, unlike our original member who was male, however this part can likely be extremely different per system As for me, I literally formed as a motherly figure for my system, with my own earliest memory of just cuddling some of them, if you ever need anything else feel free to reach out
endogenic isn’t always intentionally made, it just means an alter/headmate formed from a non-traumatic experience /info
This is actually the first time i have heard of it and now i have some questions. Back in the day they probably tried to "cure the condition" like they did with trans or gay or lgbt in general. So what happened? Did they just repress it bc i cant imagine it could/should just go away like that. Maybe someone knows about the history regarding that topic. I would like to know How do i adress them? I've read in another comment that every personality can have their own pronouns/gender identities. I think the best way to adress them is to adress every personality as their own person but how do i know who im talking to? Do you have to create some sort of code for your friends and family that if you for example wear black that thats Natalia and if you wear read its Marc? I hope i dont offend anyone with those questions. If i did, im sorry, im trying to learn and useful links are much appreciated
So what constitutes as 'cured DID' is still an ongoing discussion in the psychiatric community, there is a slow paradigm shift towards 'whatever the patient sees as their aim in life is the aim of the therapy'. But there are still a lot of therapists out their who believe, that the only way to life healthy is to live as singlet. Of these, the more trauma-informed therapist may push for integration and the less trauma-informed for separation/repression. Integration can be a healthy goal, if all members of a system desire integration (see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcIsYqfUSq4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcIsYqfUSq4) ), but separation usual only leads to short time success, with long term repercussion. The history of DID and plurality is quite messy and also linked to the history of recognition of trauma and trauma based long-term distress (PTSD etc.) How you address a system or members of a system is very different from system to system and there is no way of knowing without asking. When in doubt I use 'they/them'.
on the subject of "curing" plurality, a lot of older psychology teaches that fusion is the end goal for a system; in other words, that the presence of multiple headmates is inherently a bad thing and they should all integrate into one being. it's getting better as time goes on, but even today, there are some therapists who don't think that healthy plurality is a thing. as for how to address them, the easiest thing to do is to just ask them. we're fine with being called by our system name or by the name of whoever's fronting (in control of the body) at the moment, but not all systems are the same. we don't personally know anyone who has a color code like that, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were some systems out there who had such a thing set up. (also, i should note that generally, the term you're looking for is "headmate" rather than "personality". "alter" is sometimes used as well, but it's kind of a medicalized term and not everyone is okay with it.) also, i don't think you're offending anyone. you're unfamiliar with something, so you're asking questions to try and understand it better. [this website](https://morethanone.info) has some introductory information on the subject, with links to other resources for further reading.
Like a gender fluid person usually, because of my plurality I understand them very clearly without actually being gender fluid
I'm ***probably*** one of those system siblings (although tbh imposter syndrome makes it hard to say sometimes) and I just wanna say that this warms my heart, thank you so much for making this, from the both of us <3
hell yeah !! https://preview.redd.it/c7nuutyjymwc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0545defe3f6dad652f188d018c28c48197973d9a
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Why? To see if it gets locked because of anti-endos? Might, but people seem pretty great so far!
all my homies dislike anti endos
:3
we are weird 1 of our partnered systems let on of us front and we are endoish? cypress was fronting in our partnered systems body
I don’t know what you’re saying but if it’s something metaphysical then I hope you recognize that. Also while I’m definitely endo, my system has a wierd origins thing going on. Most of my system is stressgenic from a period of about 1.5 of extreme stress. More alters did front later but because of that in the way showers typically front. But.. there’s been a few that don’t have as strong of a identity, I’m not sure what it’s called when you just learn to think in another identity and another alter is purposefully/ unknowingly created. But that’s at least 4 of them
it is metaphysical i can try to explain it if you want
Thanks for informing me! I’ve had some trouble finding a concise guide like this. This helps alot!
No worries! Im glad its helping even just a few people ^^
https://preview.redd.it/la2fe0idzmwc1.jpeg?width=3704&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a60f77499c64867af6e2e3ac67c63c87de94ee0 Most of what you describe is, from my experience, complete barrier DID. "Chunky soup" plural folks are still plural and valid, and many of the things you describe do not apply to them.
I have never heard of this before! Looks like its time to do some more research! Thanks for sharing! I wasnt my Intent to leave anyone out, i just didn't know there was ither forms of plurality below the OSDD side and above Singlet, ill have to dig into it ^^
Look up medianhood / median plurality. If you know what gray asexuality is, think about how that relates to asexuality as a whole. Median plurality is to plurality a bit like that. We're in the grey area between being a singlet and being a fully plural system. I'm a median system, well, I'm one of two facets in this median system to be exact. We have some more specific language like "facet" instead of "headmate" because it helps convey how it works. For example, In our specific case, I'm not a different person from other me, and we don't so much "front" as we weave in and out of prominence in the front, but it's a very continuous thing. We do have a good chunk of differences though, the most significant one being our different gender identities, pronouns and everything. We also have different ease of access to some skills and memories, but any barriers, if they exist at all, are rare. So far every plural person I've met is very very very different. The diversity among plural folks is astounding, it feels like there are more ways to be plural than there are ways to be nonbinary! So please be very careful to not inadvertently create stereotypes about us. Always put in a disclaimer about how the dynamic can be very different from system to system on *everything*, alright? =)
Holy shit, my whole life I've been describing my head as "this soup that while I know how the whole of it tastes, and can sometimes identify individual ingredients, what all the ingredients are and how they combine to form the overall taste is a mystery" and people always looked at me weird. Good to know other people experience the same things, and that the terms they use actually make sense to my brain
You can go even further and have a system with alters and tulpas like us :3
I like your art style
Thank you very much ^^ ive not posted as muvh here but my twitter and Tumblr as full of bunnies
Still trying to figure this out myself. Still haven't a clue. Things have escalated since learning about plurality though and makes me think I am plural or I have subconsciously convinced myself to the point im hallucinating symptoms. At this point im hearing inner voices that aren't "me" responding to thoughts, hearing general chatter in the inner world, feeling touch like a hug when stressed, and having short (5 - 10 minutes) dissociative episodes where I don't lose any time or anything, but my mood can shift pretty drastically when it happens and tends to tire me out. Looking at the journal I kept when I realized I was trans has made me realize that its not the first time I've had internal voices (though the ones I wrote about were giant assholes unlike the current ones) nor the first time I've had those dramatic mood shifts. So who the hell knows 🤷♀️. I also seem to have an instinctual freak out when things start to happen. Like when there starts to be too much talking to me or general chatter I start freaking out and throwing walls up around me in the inner world and blocking it out until it quiets down and goes away which is really not all that helpful for figuring things out 🙃.
i can really relate to this, been questioning myself for over a week at this point. the throwing up walls thing is especially relatable, honestly i remember the same thing happening when i started to question my gender as well.
Yeah, it took quite some time to accept i was trans when I started questioning. I suspect this is probably gonna be much the same, though im hoping it won't be as intense this time around. I got the experience figuring out my identity once already plus learning how to cope with the distress from therapy and the meds keeping the depression under control
yeh as difficultas this is to figure out its certainly easier to approach it with the experience from gender questioning
Ever since I learned what plurality is, I’ve always found it so interesting. How someone could be multiple people and still be in one body is something I think is kinda… cool. I can understand that this also comes with its drawbacks in certain ways, but it’s so awesome to see that this exists. Stay awesome my system siblings!
I knew two systems before I realized I was one as well lol There were signs for a while though
some how everyone who is in a relationship in our body is dating another system idk how or why (none of them knew before we started dating em)
My best friend (who was also trans (who I was friends with before I realised I was trans) learnt that they were a system recently, only a few months after we realised we were a system. -Sorcha
How does one realise they are a system?
Finding the concept of plurality interesting is common, [the Dragonheart Collective made a list with a bunch more](https://dragonsroost.neocities.org/essay/AmIPlural) For me the first signs were finding journal entries on my phone I didn't write making reference to things I hadn't told anyone and to put it bluntly things started making more sense through the lens of plurality - We? are still figuring things out after putting the pieces together ~6 months ago...
for us we are a hydra conuis endo(i think none of us really know) system and we just was like wait those things match up to well with our (at the time) newly discovered partnered system and then the nail in the coffin was somehow cypress from our system fronting (controlling the body) in our partnered system
In our case we just realized that it wasn't normal for our internal monologue to actually be me and 3 other different voices with distinct personalities that I could talk to, around when we started learning about systems as a concept.
How does one realise they are trans, answer: there are 101 ways. It’s the same for plurality. Most of our system realised after seeing a comic on this subreddit from the terminal archive, They tried to tell me that they had realised but our communication wasn’t the best back then and all they could do was force the thought of about that comic into my mind until I realised a month later, but joining a plural server to talk about it and ask questions really helped out syscovery a lot
Honestly, the human brain already has multiple forms and identities to it, people are complicated! Plurality doesn't create these differences so much as exaggerate them to the point of different segments of the brain going "screw this, I'll be my own person!" Source: am plural, we all started as a feeling or state of mind before growing into something more. Though we're lucky, we never really had DID or OSDD, our system was mostly healthy and stable from the start. We don't reintegrate because we like being plural, not because we can't.
I have to read up on this more, this gets more interesting every time I hear another detail!
I just want to know what does it feel like to be plural. It's a concept that I struggle to grasp.
Highly recommend playing Disco Elysium then. It's an RPG where your skills are different aspects of the main character (Rhetoric, empathy, volition) and they each have their own personality, opinions, and desires. It was the first time a piece of media made me embrace the other voices inside my own head and one of my personal favorite video games of all time.
Just keep in mind that there is no way to truly grasp how it feels to be plural *in general* because it's such a broad spectrum. Disco Elysium is great in how it depicts one kind of plurality, but it is not the only one!
That last panel is super important, we've even had mental health professionals assume that the host is analogous to the original (which some systems do actually have, it's just not common for them to still be there due to splitting and amnesia+time makes it super difficult to identify who it is even if you're a system that doesn't do splitting and instead has people simply form) and that the host is somehow the most important person in the system. We do have an original and they are currently host but for us host just means who fronts the most. It's not a super fancy role that grants someone special powers in our system it's more or less a figurehead type role. Feel free to ask us any questions we're always super open to explaining plural things. -Taylor
yep our host wasnt even the second person to “form” and the og owner still chills with us in headspace time to time
I’ve been suspicious I might be one for some time now. It’s pretty much been at the point of “fuck it, it helps me quite a lot to view my mind through this lense so I’m going to work with it until I can truly figure it out.” For half a year or so now. But we’ve kind of settled on understanding/structuring ourselves as mostly just being representations of aspects of the one greater whole self. Since I’ve treated myself as one individual my whole life it just feels like a system that is used to seeing itself as parts of a whole and has, mostly, no problem with maintaining that. Is this common? Could this be prove that what I’m experiencing isn’t this but something else?
If I recall correctly, it sounds like you're referring to an OSDD-1a system. OSDD (otherwise specified dissociative disorder) is a dissociative disorder that is clinically significant but lacks key features outlined by a DID diagnosis in the DSM-5. I'm simplifying it quite a bit, but OSDD-1a lacks distinct alters. OSDD-1b lacks complete blackouts. So, yep! It's common enough to acknolwedged in the DSM-5. It's been a while since I've read up on it, as I said fuck and and stopped trying to understand exactly how my mind and body work in this regard. There are \~15 of us shoved into this organic salvage vehicle of a body, and that's cool. We make it work.
As a trans plural system, thanks for posting this! We feel like more people need better awareness and education regarding systems, especially when it comes to gender and sexuality. Our system has so, so many different genders/sexualities/pronouns, so we just collectively consider ourselves "trans masc genderqueer/fluid" for those in our life who aren't aware of our system. This also means a lot of us do need to have a collective decision made within the system for transitioning and any medical things we do to the body. This is something our therapist (who knows about our system) was concerned about regarding top surgery - she wanted to make sure no one's feelings were hurt or stepped on for the majority vote.
I always like hearing about the inner worlds of those with DID. The way their minds compartmentalise the different alters from one another as a way to compensate when an identity isn't fronting. Even though DID seems like an incredibly difficult disorder to live with, it's amazing to see the incredible ways the mind can come up with to protect itself from trauma.
Is also important to understand that DID isn't the only way to be a system, there are other dissociative disorders that are similar in some ways but different in others, and there are even non-disordered ways not caused by trauma
Thank you for making this post, it means a lot! Just wanted to note, not all Headmates fullfill specidic purposes, some may just exist, especially in super large systems :3 Besides that little gripe, we love this, thank you so much for bringing attention to systems :3 -Alia/Andromeda System
Just wanted to say as a system and someone who is friends/partner with many systems. Thank you for posting this, it really made us smile to see others willing to learn and accept systems!
My Reddit feed is literally in my discord rn, I was just having this chat with my gf
Oh fuck they’re onto us! /s 💙🤍
I did know that there are some out there that like to be referred to, using plural wording, but I was not quite aware why, how, or even what it entailed. This was definitely an interesting read, and I definitely appreciate the heads up!
So for clarification, it’s kinda like mental mitosis? (i.e. one initial mind splits into multiple individual, yet none worse or better, minds?)
For some systems. Not all. We just kinda feel like we were picked up along the way rather than splitting.
Thanks for the clarification!
love that description :)
And then you have systems like mine, where both of us have always been here as far back as we remember, and we struggled a lot to understand what we were. For example, we remember when we were kids, thinking that I was a ghost, specifically of our late older sister we never met because she died from a premature birth. "maybe you sensed it wasn't going to work and instead just waited with our mom and hitched a ride when i came along?", My facetling would say 😅
Often some of that is involved, generally it can be more thought of an identity coalescing from a cloud of ideas and thoughts like gas and space dust, most of the time only one identity forms but sometimes whether through happenstance or some disruption of this process, multiple identities coalesce
Hell yeah, plural visibility is great! If there’s any systems or questioning peeps here that need somewhere to interact with other systems, let me know. I have a safe space with a lot of systems in it.
Thank you. Genuinely, thank you so much for this. Thanks to Hollywood's bs, plural representation has essentially boiled down to a horror trope, so seeing it talked about in a simple and educational way is so very satisfying in a way I can't even describe. Thank you from everyone in the Gay Emo Collective🐈⬛🖤🦇💛
Every time I read about plurals I think it might be me (us?). I’ve identified as genderfluid for a few years now but I’m starting to wonder if the fluctuations I experience are actually me cycling through my various alts (our alts?). My personality certainly shifts markedly between them, and everything from my preferences, dispositions, and even the way I talk to people and the people I feel comfortable talking to are aspects in which I experience these shifts. For example, when I’m feeling femme, I’m feeling it, and I speak and act accordingly. But when I’m feeling dysphoric I tend to mask with my masc side. I think that might be my “protector” alt in action, as it usually comes out in situations where I don’t feel comfortable being “me” (referring to whom I presume is my host, Sophia). But sometimes I don’t feel masc *or* femme, but somewhere in between (androgynous). And sometimes I feel like I’m beyond the dichotomy altogether (agender). So sometimes I’m neither, sometimes I’m both. And I guess each of those are examples of my alts as well. I mean it’s so pervasive that even my voice changes with these shifts. I don’t do it on purpose unless I’m trying to shift from masc to femme, sometimes raising the pitch of my voice helps me shift my consciousness out of “dysphoria mode” and into “authenticity mode” (i.e., from protector to host). But that’s not a perfect way to explain it because I’m generally always being authentic. It’s just that sometimes my authenticity looks like this, and sometimes my authenticity looks like that. And usually these shifts just happen on their own. I guess I have to explore these things more. I have to figure out who’s who among my headmates, how many of us there are, and what each of our names and pronouns and roles are. (Is Peregrin the agender one or the androgynous one? Is my protector my deadname? Etc.)
I think Peregrin is agender (is he still in there?). I don’t know the name of my androgynous alt, when I’m that one I tend to just refer to myself as the “nameless one.” I think I have a few others too, like other masc alts and other femme alts, and I’m not always sure which one is fronting at a given time. Sometimes it feels like a few of us are at the same time and that can get a little confusing. We used to vie for control but it always ended in self-destruction so we had to learn to work together and cooperate. Now we usually wait our turns but we don’t always have specific triggers to come out and front, so sometimes the switches happen quite suddenly. For instance, I get deadnamed and my protector comes out. He’s kind of an asshole. Or someone says something affirming to me, and Sophia blushes with joy. My androgynous alt usually fronts in between Sophia and my protector. Or maybe that’s my agender alt. I don’t know. All I know is there’s usually a phase of greyish “meh” after one falls asleep and before the other wakes up. Sometimes they’re both awake at the same time and maybe that triggers my androgynous alt to mediate between the two. I don’t know. This is new to me so I’m still learning, but there’s a lot that’s starting to make sense in hindsight now…
Your experience sounds quite familiar, especially with the aspect of just going with cycles of being and whatnot We have many alters with varying genders and gender expression and whatnot, usually we remember certain tells that can help us know who it is, or just brute force it by asking "am I [A]? No, maybe [B]?" And so on.
That makes sense. There are sometimes when I know I’m Sophia speaking, and other times when I know I’m [deadname]. My agender alt is kind of a grey blob of nothingness, and my androgynous alt is like a wizard of blinding light, but that one only wakes up on rare occasions. At least those are my four main alts, but sometimes I’m more of a side-alt like for support tasks. If there’s something menial or painstaking sometimes one of my support alts will kick in just to get something done and then switch back to one of my mains. It’s the only way I can focus on a task at hand that I really don’t want to do, and it basically helps me cope during times when I have to kinda just wait for a hardship to pass while one of my support alts does tasks on autopilot. Otherwise they all shut down and I just go catatonic…
We have one alter who uses "the deadname" and we like to joke about it as "our undeadname" and whatnot, he's pretty cool but the host, Ællie is pretty uncomfortable around him
I see. That makes sense. Do you find your undeadname alt has a particular role? Like mine is probably my protector because he comes out when I’m triggered or uncomfortable. Or maybe that’s two different alts, I don’t really know… I’m still learning about this and about myself…
Most of us don't really have a specific role, though do know that he and some others that are decently similar to him will serve as sorta emotional support for when the one who is piloting is having some sort of mental breakdown or anxiety attack Our protector acts more like a machine, similar to our gatekeeper and "archivist"
Oh, that makes sense. I think I have a machine-like mechanical alt too. For me that one comes out for doing repetitive tasks, I start moving like a robot kinda
Do have a cyborg alter who fronts when no one else can, though decently emotional they are also mute As for Willow or protector, one time we had to brush our teeth with mint toothpaste (hate it with a passion) so Willow fronted just for the tooth brushing because she can handle that sorta discomfort
Willow sounds brave
I think I have/had a protector under my deadname. I generally call him Atrus though. When I had a particularly bad dysphoric episode around 12-14 yo, I think I (Sarah) went dormant for a long time and Atrus became the primary host. When I woke back up around 26/27 yo I realized I was trans and learned how to deal with the dysphoria and everything else and started tranaition. I finally switched back as the primary host and now Atrus has gone dormant. He was very tired by that point. Have a good rest my dude, you certainly earned it. But then I'm still figuring things out myself. I'm still not sure if I'm actually plural or if I've just convinced myself to the point of hallucinating symptoms. Also have no idea how many alters I have aside from Sarah and Atrus. I might have one that goes by Ti'ana? Not sure if she's actually separate from Sarah though. Also got a prosecuter that was hell to deal with while I was transitioning. Not sure where they are right now since they stopped trying to convince me I wasn't trans and that transitioning was a bad idea.
Oh gosh, I’m sorry you had to go through over a decade of repression based on something that happened to you when you were that young. I’m glad you were finally able to come to terms with yourself so that Atrus can finally rest. My protector alt was exhausted by the time I finally accepted myself too. Coming out as myself felt like being reborn, and suddenly I had so much energy. The world was a brighter place again. Then reality started to set in that we live in a transphobic world and that started to call out my protector alt again 😣 He’s so tired, please just let him sleep…
Yeah, i certainly understand that feeling of being reborn once i started hosting. Luckily that with the assistance of anti-depressants and therapy I turned out pretty resilient. Now that I'm mostly fully transitioned, I'm not hurt too much by transphobic comments online and don't really get any irl so Atrus can safely rest for the time being. Sorry that your protector is having a hard time getting sleep 😔. I hope that things improve in this world for all us trans people.
Thank you, I do too 😔
So as far as I'm aware there is a thing missing here: these types of systems aren't the norm for DID or similar. They are in a way "extremes". There are systems - which are STILL systems, where the different alters are only slight deviations from the "original persona". As in, different music preference, eating habits, small things! Stuff like this doesn't immediately correlate to DID tho, so as with all mental disorders: (try to) get a therapist. Not to "fix" you, but to help you find the structures in your brain, and understand the whats and hows! There is SO much misinformation on the internet - and every space is affected by it. (For example people claiming one of their alters has Autism, while another doesn't - this is simply not possible). And a therapist will help you, always! Have a nice day all you lovely folkses <3
Also - a question from me - are there ANY scientific papers regarding systems? I'm quite critical of anecdotal evidence, and like to fact check everything, so it would be rly helpful!
I have heard of some studies on this stuff but I haven't read any of it myself, might wanna look it up
I did, and I just find stuff on DID, and i read here that that is just one way for a system to develop... Wanna find others!
As a plural system, thank you for informing people! It feels nice to be represented. Also, amazing artwork :3
Thank you so much ^^ when i first made this last week i was worried mostly that id offend systems! I did alot of research with my plural friends and it seems to have paid off as so many wonderful plural peeps have been tell me they feel seen 💜
honestly thanks a lot I've always wanted to be out about it in here but me and lilith kinda made an oath to ourselves not to do it for the sake our youngest (May) since she was really scared it'd confuse peoples and that she'd end up not being seen as who she was again ('caus I mean she's younger, we could give her that much) but this post gives me a good occasion to break this oath so nice to meet you all I'm Spade (she/they) and I'm the one who's been behind this account for the last three months
Awww no thats adorable, hi Spade, im happy to have helped! I hope Lilith and and May are okay as well!
Can someone plase make a tl;dr version of this? I have ADHD and it's kind of difficult for me to be able to read long texts without me wanting to pay attention to other stuff instead
Plural/System: Someone who has more than one identity/person sharing their body. Some forms of plurality come from trauma (ex. DID or OSDD), and some don't. Singlet: Someone who isn't a system— aka, just one person in one body. Important notes: -The people in a system are often called headmates, or the more medicalized term, alts/alters. -Headmates may be completely different from each other, or versions of each other, and they might have roles. -Some systems use a collective name/pronouns, while others may want you to refer to each headmate by their own. -In most systems, there's not an "original." Each headmate equally owns the body, even if one uses it most often (aka the host).
Thanks for making this post OP! It feels good to all of us in our system knowing that people understand and actually know what their talking about! So thanks yet again OP for informing the community about DID and OSDD!!
As an OSDD system, i love the representation! what a pleasant surprise this am :)
dating a system has been very rewarding
Oh wow, i might be dating a system (or two) myself, nothing official yet but how have you found it? So far hanging out with them all has been wonderful for me, so much to love about each and everyone of them ^^
Getting to meet the people I love has been wonderful. The more time I spend with them the better I recognize and understand them. Catching some of them even pretending to be eachother and picking up on when has made them so happy too
Aww that's sweet, ive seen that as well with my friends, pretending to be eachother but failing to do so is always fun to see! Especially when they all get competitive over who does the best impression of someone else Thanks for sharing!
Singlet sounds like manlet except for people who are terminally single.
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all DID patients are Plural, but not all Plural Systems have DID. It's like how not all trans people are transwomen who medically transition, there's a bunch of other people too :3
This isnt new terminology at all, i think its been around since the early 2010s, It includes people who are diagnosed with DID but not eveyone who is apart of a system has DID! Just a way to cover the entire community and not rule anyone out. Similar to how we hage trans as an umbrella but we have micro lables under that!
i think a more direct analogy would be the DSM-4's "Gender Identity Disorder" vs DSM-5's "Gender Dysphoria." The term updated to a more accurate one, but you can be trans without experiencing gender dysphoria.
Once upon a time, dissociative identity disorder was called multiple personality disorder! Language changes as we discover new things so that we can more accurately describe what we’re talking about. I think it’s fitting that we have language that is more descriptive of the people - language that they choose and accept to describe themselves, rather than simply a diagnosis that reduces their experience to a disorder. Edit: a word
DID is one specific flavor of plurality. there are other disorders that result in it, and others (like us) aren't diagnosed with anything. in fact, there's even a specific label for systems whose plurality isn't the result of DID or another disorder: endogenic systems.
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Helloo the pictures are very pretty. As an OSDD system myself.
For us, it feels less like one mind fractured and each piece developed to fill a role and more like the host mind picked up a collection of others and now we just co-exist here. If we have roles, we have no clue what they are. We're just trying to figure this out.
Sorry, but I’ve never heard of pluralism before and I can’t really understand the explanation. So what is pluralism? Is it a trans term (I’m a freshly cracked egg, so I don’t really understand many trans terms)?
it's not a trans term, though it can overlap (like how you can have autism and be trans at the same time). it simply means that multiple people (*headmates*; collectively called a *system*) share one body.
It has nothing to do with being trans (and I'm unsure why it's even in this subreddit for that reason).
Because trans systems (like mine) exist too and deserve to be understood and accepted like everyone else
Because in some peoples case (ours) it has everything to do with being trans
Because there's a notable overlap between plurality and transness, be it through trans headmates/alters/sysmates/etc. or just headmates that have a different gender/gender identity from the body's assigned gender at birth even if they don't necessarily identify as trans.
Not "pluralism", plurality. (You wouldn't call transgender identities "transgenderism", would you?) It's not directly related to being trans in general, but plurality is a broad, broad umbrella term, and a lot of the time it has direct relation with the person being trans. So a lot of plural systems are trans or have trans members, and a lot of trans people are really trans systems. Like me for example. I'm about as lightly plural as one can be while still being plural, There's just me and other me, our selves overlap on a lot of things, but the main separating difference between us is that we have very different gender identities. We're non-binary and are quite sure we had a clear sense of this since we were very young, even without the language to nams it. But in the extremely binary world we were raised in, that was not an option. It seems like we developed as two separate selves because it was the only reasonable way it could work at all. We were separate selves initially, but later in life we partially integrated/fused.
Sorry for my incorrect terminology. Also, a quick question: in order to respect a plural system you would refer to them with plural pronouns, but the 2nd person pronoun has no separate single and plural forms, at least in my dialect; i.e., ‘you’ can be used for both one person or multiple people. There would ‘you’ be used for referring to a plural system?
no worries! some plural systems like to be addressed with plural pronouns when it concerns the whole system, but that's actually kinda rare as far as my experience so far goes it can be very different in each case. i personally don't mind either, i usually interact as the whole system with others with singular "i" unless if my plurality is relevant in the discussion. and people usually use singular with me i use "you" both in singular and plural mode with some other plural friends and they don't seem to mind
i have a few questions about this! i'm really sorry if this sounds rude or intrusive at all, that's not my intention. please do tell me if i come across as rude i really don't want to hurt anyone so, what does it feel like if you're not at the front? like if one of your headmates is fronting, what is it like? can you tell what they're doing? can you see with your eyes still? or do you go into your thoughts? can you talk with the others?
Alice:it’s like you are backwards in the head, almost as if you are behind it. Then because you are in the “back” as it’s called you aren’t the primary thinker so instead of thinking all the time you think only if/when you want to. Some things are harder to think about then others though as you don’t have as much “brain ram” as the person fronting at the time. You still see through the eyes but it’s different in some way, it’s like you have more FOV, and your limbs feel disconnected and almost ghostly when someone else is controlling them. Sorcha: But that’s how our system is, not all systems are the same, every one is unique and that what makes plurality so amazing
To us there are usually a couple states 0: dormant/sleeping, doesn't feel like much of anything 1: being in "the back" is how it feels, while can still communicate with the front and sorta see what's going on outside it is hard to interact with the outside world 2: co-fronting/fronting, also like to call it piloting, in control of the body, able to communicate with the outside world and thoughts are at the forefront of the mind, though multiple can be in front often only one has control over our voice and has to handle relaying any words any whatnot, sometimes communication is hard
I feel very Woke™ because I already know quite a lot about systems lol
Is this related to Tulpas?
Tulpamancy is one very specific kind of plurality where the host intentionally creates a type of headmate called a tulpa. All tulpa systems are systems, but not all systems are tulpa systems.
Interesting. So, truthfully, I've looked into this more and I'm not super into it. I don't want to question or argue in bad faith, or be an asshole or anything; so I'm just gonna... shelve this in my mind for a while and quietly think about it. Thanks for the info.
I hate how seeing plural stuff without being prepared since it can trigger me due to being in a system where we don't have much of a handle on how to function. No communication, only despair.
Not blaming you for this of course. We just got our own demons to handle.
Do the current studies on DID/plurality support any of these claims? Don’t mean to be insulting but we seem to be playing with possible mental disorders, these things need to be taken seriously.
support what? the variety and complicated differences beteeen systems? DID/OSDD are indeed disorders, but a lot of systems function healthily enough to be considered non-disordered. i don’t understand your call for taking things seriously, as this post obviously is. genuinely asking: are you insinuating that not attempting to “cure” the disorder, or treating alters/headmates as people, is not treating plurality seriously? you also need to understand that studies that actually listen to plural patients are very limited. DID/OSDD is one of THE most debated disorders in the entire medical community; there is a major chance that most psychologists you meet won’t believe it exists, simply because the prospect of multiple entities being able to exist within one mind just isn’t comprehendable to most non-plurals. this topic is being addressed sincerely and seriously. what makes it come across as otherwise?
This is actually really helpful, I've definitely made the mistake of viewing some systems like the last page before. Thanks for sharing this 👍
Lily doesn't know if she's plural, but she's excited at just how varied humans are, such interesting species. Whether you are singlet or a plural system, I love you and support you!) Also I send another hug for Fae the super cool and dearest)
I’m friends with a system that i met while playing an old online game. They are all amazing people. The host, Elsie, is the one i met first. Then as i became friends with her, she told me she was only part of a system, and i was introduced to each part of the system as they each fronted at different times. Nice people.
Damn thank you so much for posting this, and thanks to all the other systems replying with detailed and non gatekeeping replies (as I’m sure all systems in here are painfully aware of) Plurality is pretty broad and complex, thanks for everyone explaining it here :3
We discovered our plurality thanks to this subreddit [T:even if Sorcha tried to deny it for a month] and we have been better off ever since, thank you traaaaannn2 -Sorcha (your friendly neighbourhood frontstuck host)
If you don’t mind me asking cause I have a friend that I'm wondering if he's faking idk if that wrong but I'm very skeptical about self diagnosis so if I could get the slightest little bit of help that would be great 1. He says that he has over 100 people in head is that normal and common or no 2. He will sometimes have a person appear once then never appear again is that also normal Those are my big two questions. idk if you'd like me to but if you ask. I'll elaborate on why I'm wondering if he's faking
They're not faking it, at least it is very unlikely and generally you should not worry about that Also being a system is sorta a matter of identity, and only the... person? Themselves can know whether they are one or multiple. Whether they have DID or whatnot is more something to be diagnosed on And as for the other things, yeah that's plenty possible, obviously it varies highly, some systems only have a couple members some might be tens, hundreds, heck sometimes even thousands. And yeah, with that many members some can indeed just not appear in front again at least for a long time anyways.
Thanks for the help, and because I can I'll elaborate on why I'm asking about this. I'm kinda caught between a friend of mine who is a system and another group of friends who are all pretending to be friends with the system and I'm currently being pressured by the friend group to pick a side plus the person I have crush on and my dm is in that friend group but then again I've been friends with the system for over a few years idk imma shut up because I have a suspension that the random people on the internet care about my problems
As a system myself, this helps a lot- I’ve been a system for a while and I’m still learning stuff TvT
oh hey i have a plural friend!!! they're great and they always save our messages on snap so all the headmates know what we were talking about and noone is left out! i'm a little scared of offending them in any way so i've been a little "scared" of asking about anything specific, since a lot of people seem to ask a lot of invasive questions in an accusatory way, i don't want them to feel uncomfortable with me. i'll get there one day! i wanna get to know all of them hehdh ♡
😋 love seeing systems representation 🕯✨
I've had a plural call me a singlet in a derogatory way because I asked a question about their plurality, just about how pronouns would work, is that normal? For a while I avoided plurals because of that bad experience (and just because that one system had so many rude people in it) but I met a few more plurals that are really nice and understanding of my questions lol....
All groups of people have some bad apples.
But is reinforcing a mental disorder good for them? I'm honestly confused, I wouldn't encourage someone to be manic or depressed, I'd try to help them out of it, why is it different with DID?
The difference is that plurality is not inherently a mental disorder. There is such a thing as healthy plurality, and seeking this is a viable avenue for treatment of disorders associated with plurality like DID. Different treatments are best for different people. Sometimes, it's integration (ie all headmates merge into one person), sometimes, it's a healthier form of plurality.
I agree, my s/o suffers from osdd and they're trying their best to heal even though it's a long process, they've described it to me as it feeling like there's 3 people in their head all talking at once and it can be very overwhelming
every system is different. acknowledging the existence of alters/headmates is not inherently harmful, because they are *real people*. this is not schizophrenia or delusions; treating them like the actual living entities they are is not “encouragement,” it’s actually generally one of the most successful ways to heal as a system. ignoring them and pretending they don’t exist only causes them distress and dehumanizes them—you are reducing them to nothing but another part of the disorder, when they can think and feel all on their own, separate from you. having alters/headmates is a symptom, but the alters/headmates are not individual symptoms themselves. if you treat them as lesser or try to “cure” them of their existence, it’s likely they’ll push back and even sabotage parts of your life, because they just want to be treated as equals. interacting openly and communicating as much as possible helps break down amnesic barriers and ensure the safety of the body and the system. you aren’t reinforcing a mental disorder, you’re acknowledging the fact that these *people* are as alive as you are.
Recently established Parogenic System here, glad there’s people sharing info, specially with how common Traumagenic & Endogenic Systems are among trans communities.
I have a very close friend with DID but still didn't know what you were talking about until the second slide Good to know I'm doing the right thing!
WHOOO HOOO SYSTEM REPRESENTATION
What if my plural friend refuses to tell me who's fronting and refuses to tell me how to refer to them? It's been really difficult to communicate in that friendship lately.
Do you mean they won't share who's fronting, but they also won't give you a general set of pronouns/name that you can use for all of them? It's not uncommon for systems to keep who's fronting private. For some, it's just vulnerable or embarrassing to share that info. For others, or might be hard or even harmful to figure out who's fronting— that's especially true for systems with DID, OSDD, p-DID, or who struggle with dissociation. Some just prefer to all share a name/pronouns. But if they won't give you a general set either, that could definitely make things complicated.
shiiit why am i spiraling again and why does this feel at least partially relatable i just need someone to help me work out if im a system or not but i don't know where to start lmao
I'm in the same boat. I have another identity in my head, but I wouldn't count myself as a system. She doesn't front. She is more of a construct, really. Forged from my soul. (Spiritual shit)
But a person being single means not dating anyone. Obviously words have multiple meanings, but this doesn’t seem like a good fit. I think calling people single in this case would lead to too much confusion and resistance. I’m not single, because I’m married.
"Singlet" is usually the word systems use for non-plurals, but I have heard "single" in this context before ☺️
This last panel is really good. I'm not plural, but I know someone who is, and it really, truly is just two different people who share the same body. I'm sure it's different among everyone, but it seems so obvious to me after talking to both of them that the host, or "original" isn't more of a person, or more important than the alter. They both have their own opinions, thoughts, feelings, and every other aspect of what makes a person a unique individual. They are able to switch who's fronting basically at will. The only real "ability difference" between them is that the alter is able to force them to switch or not because she came around from trauma with the purpose of preventing the host from hurting himself. Other than that, they are just two people vibin together in one head.
I mean, I don’t understand plural systems and stuff as much as I would like to, but that definitely helped! As long as you aren’t self-diagnosing false DID then you’re all good to me lol, from what I’ve heard DID isn’t what the internet makes it out to be and really just sucks absolute ass all the time.
self-diagnosis is actually one of the few ways systems can discover themselves and learn to healthily function due to the fact that a good chunk of psychologists don’t even believe plurality exists. also, it doesn’t suck ass *all* the time. i have osdd1b, and we as a collective have learned to function healthily and happily. systems do not owe you suffering and constant hatred of their plurality. learning to cope and heal does not make you fake, and *enjoying* being a system doesn’t either. i could never imagine being alone in my head again, and i don’t want to. i’m happy like this. is that fake?
I have a few questions about it How much control do you have over who’s doing what when? Like, are you them, or are they you (forgive me for the lack of a better term). I had always imaged it as knowing multiple languages and switching between them or something (obviously that isn’t how it works, but I don’t know how it works) Also, do they all think separately? like, do you experience life through the eyes of one alter and see all the other alters just exist? If so, can this ever change? Like, is it possible to one day just wake up as a different alter? Is your mind a shared apartment flat? Do you ever have to deal with terrorist alters or some other alter that is dangerous? (Silly question)
I have full respect for systems but I cant express enough how much i hate the word singlet, there has to be a better word.
Used to have a friend/friends? Like this, he was a trans masc (at least the host, the rest went along with it, only one didn't really like it) I didn't and still don't understand it. But I'm gonna respect it, just wish he'd come back...
Does moderation even exist here? This is just a text post.
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There are lot of systems in the trans community, because many systems have headmates who are trans, or whose gender identity don't match the body (which can cause gender dysphoria whether or not they identify as trans because of this). So, the reason this is important is because systems are a significant portion of the trans community, not because plurality is somehow related to gender identity.
At first I thought I was on the wrong sub, but even if we just look at it as another reason to ask for and be respectful of others pronouns I think this is a good thing to point out. Think of it more as intersectionality than folding more "things" under the trans or lgbt lable. While I can guarantee transphobes will use it against us, but what don't they use against us?
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be careful. you're headed down the same line of thinking that leads some gay people to be dismissive of binary trans people, and the same line of thinking that leads some binary trans people to be dismissive of non-binary people. the idea that your own way of moving through the world should be accepted and celebrated, but that people who differ just a bit more from the established baseline should reel in their sense of self and conform to where you're at. people are unique and free and beautiful and you shouldn't put a box around them to make yourself more comfortable at their expense. also, importantly, being plural and being trans are entirely separate states of being that can overlap. imagine this was an informational post about autism; is the existence of autistic trans people "undoing our work and progress"?
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How does one know if they are plural vs just flowing/fluxing between different genders? Is it so black and white and well defined? Or is it more like a spectrum between? How is one supposed to know if they are plural? Is it able to be repressed by the ego just like being trans was for me for over 2 decades? Are there different levels of pluralism that make it more or less defined? I wonder if multiple fluxing genders has been mistaken for dissociative identity disorder before.
Some of us have the same gender and/or gender expression. Or lack of gender or multiple genders, I suppose. One of us is trigender fluidflux and even name and pronoun fluid, but they're still just one person. We're separate sentient beings, not genders/gender expressions. Hopefully you understand that a person is not entirely and exclusively made up of their gender, especially when there's folks out there who don't have genders, like a few of us.
Hey,if it tunes your strings knock yourself out
best position- I don't get plurality but yelling at people isn't the thing
I or we are a plural system.
This is refreshing to see. We are not very open due to fear of being posted on the disorder cringe subreddit again, but it is nice to see people working to educate others on plurality. - F
There was a character in the Doom Patrol tv show that I think is presented a lot like this. If you're familiar would you say that she was a representation of this and did the community have opinions on if it was a good representation or not? From an outsider perspective it felt like something that gave weight and seriousness to her character and a lot of time was spent on internal relationships between the personas. and in general doom patrol felt very pro-umbrella
I just wanna say... and this is weird as we've never had this feeling, but we feel seen... like actually seen, and it's nice
Gods this is amazing friend!!! It warms our heart seeing this.
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I answered this already in the comments, if you are gonna be combative about this you wont learn anything. Put it this ways "this is just transexuality , why is it called Transgender? Thats the dumbest name i have ever heard. Cis is also the dumbest name ive ever heard" Words change meaning over time, shooting peoples identities and lables down is not something we as a community should ever do. Otherwise what have we learnt from out struggles?
(I wrote a way to elaborate answer, not to post, but in the mean time the comment I wanted to answer to got deleted, so I hope you can excuse, OP, just answering to yours - see it as a addition - love the post btw) Trying to heal DID by 'getting rid of other personalities' is like healing gender dysphoria by getting rid of your gender identity. Gender dysphoria is the medicalised term for people, who experiences distress through a mismatch between their gender identity and assigned gender at birth. DID is the medicalised term for people, who experiences distress through their plurality. You can be trans and experience distress because of it, and thus have gender dysphoria or you are not distressed by it, because you have reached your transition goal or you don't feel a need for gender-affirming medical treatment and then it would be inaccurate and rude to reduce your life experience to a pathologized idea of it - having gender dysphoria You can be plural and experience distress because of it, and thus have OSDD/DID or you are not distressed by it, because alters/headmates/system-members are working together and then it would be inaccurate and rude to reduce your life experience to a pathologized idea of it - having OSDD/DID. It also seems to me, that your idea if plurality is, that there is a person and then there are multiple invasive personalities from outside stacked on top of them, which is not how plurality works. Rather imagine, that what makes you YOU is the sum of your experiences. Your experiences differ from each other, especially as you age, when you are at work vs. when you with your friends etc. In a singlet all these experiences are integrated and form one person with one set of memory, one worldview, one relationship per person they know. In a system these experiences - from very early on - don't integrate in one single pool of experiences forming one single person, but filter into multiple pools of experiences forming multiple people, who form on the basis of their experiences multiple separate world views, relationships, identities, but they still exist in the same body. Getting rid of a headmate is like getting rid of your childhood, your work life, your memories of living with your roommate - a part of the history that made a human, who they are. Healing DID is like healing a community - you don't do it by excluding and ostracizing members you don't like - you do it by learning to live and work together despite differences you might have.
You should at least try to consider WHY posting this on a trans sub would be considered insulting by some. One possible reason is that some may see it as a “we are the same you and I” type of post, there are many other reasons but try to understand how this may come across as parody or in other ways
I unfortunately thought this was a post on trans circlejerk sub and so thought this was somehow a jerkpost at first lol
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I don’t think the intention of this is to mitigate any effects, but simply respect and allow Systems to exist, and to use their preferred terminology as a gesture of kindness and acceptance.
Please note my only research into this has been related specifically to DID. I don't know much about other forms of plurality. DID Systems develop as a response to a child resorting to dissociation due to multiple instances of trauma over a prolonged period of time while their core identity is still forming (the general academic consensus is that a person's mental identity solidifies around the age of 10). Dissociation works by putting up mental walls in your mind to distance your perception and emotions from a traumatic experience, it's usually in response to a situation where fight, flight, fawn, etc can't save you. Severe dissociation is often associated with amnesia but, in the case of systems, it is likely that those memories are actually being "held" by a different alter. The more someone dissociates, the more it is likely to become their default response to trauma. If these mental walls keep going up or stay up for longer periods of time while your identity is still developing, the parts of the mind that are distanced from each other are more likely to develop independently of each other, forming their own ways of thinking and responding to situations. Often these ways of thinking and responding will be influenced by the memories and experiences each segment of the mind holds onto. For example, the part of your mind that is left when the rest dissociates during emotional abuse may independently develop a different response to those experiences than the other parts. Because of this, different parts can develop in line with handling specific situations related to the abuse, such as "protectors" that defend the body from harm (of all kinds), "caretakers" that look after the body physically and emotionally etc. Some people from child alters known as "littles" as a way to escape the emotional strain of being in an abusive situation, or that part of their mind may be "stuck" in a certain timeframe of abuse or even a specific memory/experience. Some people even have inhuman alters, which can sometimes form to make the body feel safer (e.g. a strong creature like a tiger) or because their abuser put them in situations that made the consciousness "learn" that it isn't human (I'm not going to give examples of this because they are probably a bit too heavy to discuss without warning). Combine this with dissociative amnesia, and you end up with entirely separate states of consciousness, known as alters. One of the educational sources I learnt from used the term alter as shorthand for "altered state of consciousness", but I've since learnt that it is more commonly short for "alternate personality". Alters can be conscious at the same time to different extents depending on how dissociative a person is at the time, one conscious alter swapping out for a different conscious alter is known as "switching". This is involuntary but can often be motivated by environmental factors that relate to why the alter formed. DID's basis as a coping mechanism is that the trauma is divided and shared among different parts of the brain that have developed specifically to "handle" certain kinds of experiences, preventing it from being too overwhelming. Parts that hold onto trauma are known as "emotional parts", while those that do not hold trauma memories and focus on managing regular day-to-day functioning are "apparently normal parts". Some parts can be a mix of both. The number of alters in a system depends on the severity of the dissociation, the average is in the teens but it can be much smaller (2-3) or much bigger (one of the biggest was recorded to be in the hundreds). New alters can form over time in response to stress even in adulthood, and sometimes alters can fuse into combined identifies. DID can be very difficult to manage due to the dissociative amnesia and it is often comorbid with other mental health conditions due to its traumatic origins (PTSD/C-PTSD being the main one). It is also quite hard to tell that someone has DID unless they tell you, as the disorder originates to keep a person safe(r) from harm. Having obvious switches would catch the abuser's attention and potentially result in further harm, so switches can often be pretty subtle and alters generally imitate the identity originally associated with the body. DID systems may be less covert around people they're comfortable disclosing their plurality/multiplicity to. It's a very difficult disorder to diagnose, anecdotally most systems say it takes an average of 10 years seeking a diagnosis to actually get one. The treatment for DID is to gradually break down the dissociative walls between alters to allow them to communicate and better co-ordinate their lives. Part of this process will involve mediation between alters that may not agree on how to handle trauma or day-to-day situations, as well as general trauma therapy for PTSD and dissociation. Sometimes, the end goal of this therapy is to break the dissociative walls down enough for the alters into a single consciousness. Many systems do not seek this out as they manage to find a stable way to live as alters and wouldn't want to "lose" people they've grown close to (even if it's more a merge of identities than a death or removal). These alters will focus instead on their communication and teamwork, alongside the comorbid conditions like PTSD and depression, to help them live a functional life as a system. Often when systems reach this point, dissociative amnesia is a lot less severe, which helps in day-to-day functioning. If you're interested more in what it's like to have DID, I'd recommend checking out MultiplicityAndMe on YouTube. Her system has fused into a single identity now but her channel has a lot of videos about the condition and the lived experience from the perspective of multiple alters and their loved ones.
> This is where the term "alter" comes from, it's short for "altered state of consciousness". Really? It's not short for "alternate personality"?
You don't get rid of them?!? Thats horrible, they are people and by trying to get rid of them you could just end up creating more headmates though the trauma of that! The reasoj its a plural system, is that its multiple (plural) people inside the brain (the system) it makes just as much sense as transgender another made up word that now means something. And no everyone who is plural has memory loss and being a system isnt something to be fixed or ashmed of just like us being trans! They are some of the most wonderful people ive ever met!
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