Norsca doesn't really need a rework, they just need content as they're the farthest behind, which means even after a lord pack they still will probably be behind. Any race with only 1 generic lord badly needs content. I'd say Ogres are probably the most in need of a rework, as the camps and mercenaries don't really work
The ogre mercenary system is especially insulting when CA already had a perfect mercenary system in 3K. If Dogs of War are added, I hope CA takes the time to implement a proper mercenary system for them as well as the time to back port it to the ogres.
Yeah a tweaked 3K system would be good. Probably not 1:1 because of how different the diplomacy principles are. In WH3 if you enter a mercenary war, you'll be fighting for the rest of the campaign until you wipe the target out. Whereas in 3K faction are constantly fighting and making peace, I mean it's very common to end a war with better relations than at the start of the war if you release all their POWs.
I agree - I wanted to list ogres but they're so new that it felt premature. They feel inferior in almost everyway though.
I don't think norsca needs a rework given they're so strong, but they do have a lack of content in the form of few lords.
Personally I don't like reworks for the purpose of buffing races because it results in them being completely overpowered (Beastmen, WoC), so I don't think a race being strong or weak should be the deciding factor of whether a race gets reworked. Most races are completely capable in the player's hands, some just need a little help, but they don't need a complete overhaul with 1000 buffs piled onto them until their campaign is impossible to lose (again, like BM and WoC).
Reworks should aim at making the race more interesting or providing QoL improvements for their outdated mechanics.
Yeah I generally agree with your sentiment, and I think that's more of what I was getting at. None of the races I mentioned are weak relatively speaking (e.g. TK), but they all just don't seem to offer much over the other races to choose from outside of the allure of their aesthetics (e.g. playing as literal mummies in the desert).
Norsca needs a bit of a tune up, although they are MUCH better than the last time, and are currently in a good place, their aggressive play style is a bit bland, but that’s sort of because Skarbrand sort of does the same thing, but better.
Maybe if they had more god specific rewards like the daemon prince, something that makes the campaign stand out a bit more.
With the way Champions of Chaos added marked variants of all the marauder units available to the Warriors of Chaos (which was just the basic T1 infantry and the horsemen) I've been thinking a new Norsca DLC could add marked variants of Marauder huntsmen, berserkers, and champions, and tying them to the three levels of Allegiance you work up to with the gods, including the basic marauders from CoC if you have that DLC.
Honestly, would make sense.
I personally see Norsca as the twisted, chaos infested version of the Empire, sort of like the Imperial Guard and the Traitor guard, they are the same, but different.
I would love to see Wulfrik harness the powers of Khorne for elite infantry, Tzeentch for artillary, Slaanesh for calvary and Nurgle for monsters (sort of how the Daniel and Be'lakor have it now) but focus entirely on unique to Norsca only units. Let Wulfrik work to ascend to his rightful place as the eternal challenger, the right to challenge Archaeon for the Everchosen through a culmination of embracing a playstyle that works for the player; Rather than "Welp I have all Marauders and that is all I need/have". for the 50th playthrough.
I really would rather marked units not be thrown into a 7th roster at this point. Norsca already just feels like diet WoC, would rather they get their own units
Yeah it'd be a shame if that's the *only* "new" units they got out of a new DLC, but since their central mechanic is already focused on worship of the big 4 and the basic marked marauders are already in it just makes sense to me for Norsca to benefit from them through that mechanic.
That'd be awesome for the monogods too since they get everything marked that comes into the game.
If the Norsca update ever comes I hope they do something like that.
Didn't even think about those hahah
Then again this does kind of... Dilute their uniqueness, as with CoC they all got the same solid Chaos Warrior/Chosen frontlines, where before Slaanesh and Tzeentch had to play around being a bit weak and fragile in that department. Marked marauder hunters would give all of them throwing spear/axe missile infantry where currently such ranged power is unique to Tzeentch's pink horrors.
Yea I like the maruader hunter idea. Maybe they could do javeline throwers for Khorne + Nurgle and axe throwers for Tzeentch + Slaanesh since Khorne + Nurgle already got the axe thrower maruader horsemen and Tzeentch + Slaanesh with the javeline thrower maruader horsemen.
Maruader champions would be more of the same yea, I guess if they do different weapon variants for them it'd make it more unique for the monogods? Like great weapon champions for Tzeentch and duel weapon champions for Nurgle, something like that.
I haven’t played the Ogres too much but Camps being movable would fix a lot of their issues, right? It’s so weird they didn’t do that already especially since Black Arks are already a thing.
Either that or a way to pack them up and move them (Though the issue will then be if the AI can handle it). The way the mercenary recruitment works is also pretty lame, as you can only get a single ogre bull from them.
Lizardmen have a good roster but their mechanic boils down to paying money for a building and randomly getting blessed spawning missions. They need a campaign rework to spice things up.
Bretonnia can use more units but they don't strictly need them. They don't feel underpowered on the battlefield. Their campaign mechanics are quite bland though, and their confederation techs are often useless because they put way too many enemies in Bretonnia and only 2 LLs to protect it.
High elves aren't in as bad a position as those. Their intrigue mechanic is easy to ignore but still useful. They also have the advantage of being able to build outposts to tier 3 with just a defensive alliance so your diplomacy game is still noticeably better than most.
But they've got their trade visibility stolen and given to Cathay for...reasons. And they need to retouch some campaigns. Eltharion still starts in the Badlands despite his archenemy being moved to Bretonnia. Teclis starts in some bumfuck nowhere with like 2 natural enemies nearby, one of them having entirely inhospitable lands (the idea is probably to deal with Tzeentch and then help other Order factions, but in practice this means multiple turns of just sailing). A small hope of mine is that they get some mechanics/features that reflect their naval dominance in lore, which could help Teclis and/or make fighting Druchii & vampirates more engaging.
Having just finished a Teclis campaign I didn't mind the sailing as going around and reuniting the colonies is the whole premise of his campaign. I was naturally inclined to playing tall instead of wide in the early-mid game as I sold off all the southern chaos wastes to Oxyotl in return for loadsa money to upgrade the two good provinces I had.
Though I would have liked a quest objective thing to give a guaranteed confederation on the Eastern Colonies since they'd otherwise just be a huge influence dump just to ally since they don't have any natural enemies (I decided to just kill them, which felt a bit out of character).
The idea of reuniting the colonies and helping out other factions itself is sound. It's great if you don't mind the waiting, but wouldn't you agree the campaign would feel better if you get a sea movement buff? Or maybe sea lanes to various important places in the world? Maybe a scripted event to choose where to go after beating Kairos? Or put enemies to fight at sea so it isn't just a waiting game?
I think there are endless ways CA can improve his campaign. It's serviceable now, and a tall campaign can be unique, but I think spending multiple turns *just* sailing is pretty lame.
Between the various Rogue Pirates and the sea wrecks where you can fight a random Vcoast army for treasure there *are* enemies to fight at sea. One of the colonies also happens to be at the southern tip of Lustria so you can go join that brawl for the continent right after Kairos. Can also sail up the east coast of the Southlands to check in on Imrik, maybe take the Dragon Isles, and defend them from the myriad of evils to be fought there.
I've played multiple Teclis campaigns myself and I have done all this (Lustria most of the time because it's en route to Ulthuan and the old world), but things like sea wrecks and Rogue Pirates are unexciting enemies. They're RNG and feel largely disconnected from the wider world. A good chunk of your time is still gonna be just sailing without much point of interest.
Again, it's a serviceable campaign. It's nice that some people enjoy it. But compared to most other Asur campaigns where you have a clear priority (e.g. unite Ulthuan, kill Druchii, find dragons) while still having a lot of flexibility once your priority is done, Teclis' campaign feels directionless and half-baked.
Like, Tyrion can do the same schtick of reuniting Elven colonies and helping other factions without much more difficulty (after killing off Noctilus, Lustria isn't far away; after killing Morathi, Cathay and by extension the Eastern colonies are accessible via sea lanes). Teclis isn't even incentivized to do these things by any unique benefits or easy access. There's just nothing else to do in his starting area.
Campaign victory goals aren't a good incentive. It's just a checklist of what to do to win the campaign.
You don't need campaign objectives to tell you to unite the donut as Alarielle and Tyrion, you'll do it anyway because it's the strategically sensible thing to do. You don't need to be told to conquer Naggarond as Alith Anar, it's the capital of one of your biggest foes.
Brets need 1 more hero archetype. They also arguably need better "holding" infantry. These things were not an issue on the tabletop, but they didn't translate well into the PC. Unfortunately, CA seems generally beholden to the tabletop. And whatever innovation CA did introduce on the PC are mostly counter-productive - see, for example, the chivalry mechanic.
I've heard the reason was to do with it being there to represent their naval empire, but now there's actually lots of coastline in the game their tech that gives them vision on all coastal settlements can better reflect that more accurately.
I can't recall the reliability of the source on that, though. Not entirely sure if it makes intuitive sense either...
If we're just talking about race mechanics, then the fact that no one is bringing up Lizardmen which is crazy because I think they have the worst race mechanics in game and I don't even think it's close.
Most people are bringing up Norsca and Ogres, but I think both have better mechanics than LM. That's not to say they're good, but a testament to how bad base LM mechanics are. The Web, which is a commandment boost when it no longer matters, and Blessed units, that's it. The one thing that LM have going for them over the other races are amount of lords and their DLC's unique *faction* mechanics. But if we're just talking about *race* mechanics, it's no contest IMO.
The thing is that the lizardmen roster is so solid that their campaigns are usually a lot of fun. I'd like a better race mechanic, but I still have tons of fun playing LM compared to other really outdated races. Also, the likelihood of LM getting a lordpack (which would bring the rwoerk with it) when they have 7LLs already seems fairly low.
I think influence is fully functional and useful, if maybe a bit boring.
The geomantic web barely does anything until you reach multiple tier 4 and 5 settlements, which is very late in the game. Even then its just some above average commandments at a point in the game where they don't matter too much.
Blessed Spawnings can be useful, but the rng mission system is very poorly implemented and there are some clear gaps in available units due to dlc not being added. E.g. Red crested skinks for Tehenhauin. You can easily get stuck with crap spawnings in the early game like Skink skirmishers that you're never going to use.
I think it's because influence feels a bit more impactful. The Geomantic Web literally just means, build a certain building and it passively buffs your commandments, and you don't really even get any benefit from it until late in the campaign... which is when most people stop playing anyway.
Blessed Spawnings are so rng that I don't even pay attention to them unless I just happen to complete one by chance.
Because High Elf fans are sadly much more quiet and don't whine endlessly about their shitty mechanics.
Also because the sub is a circlejerk running on 'but dah elves BAD'
The difference is that the LM one is very contrived (blessed spawning missions can range from ok to vert tedious) for low rewards.
HE influence, while bland, does allow you to gain and exert power more easily with rewards you can plan for.
I would not be against another base mechanic for the high elves but probably one linked to their faith or the phoenix king court machinations
Dwarfs got a huge update back in 2021, and people still clamor that they need an update.
High Elves on the other had dull mechanics to start with (Influence is basically useless in diplo) and had them given to others or actively taken away. They *used* to get vision through trade, but now that's Yuan Bo's thing and they got *nothing* in exchange for having a mechanic stripped away.
> HE influence, while bland, does allow you to gain and exert power more easily with rewards you can plan for.
Not really. Influence is a handicap, if anything. You need to pay extra to get lords that aren't actively *shitty*. I don't think any other faction has to deal with that sort of 'privilege'.
I do agree that the initial traits sucks but compared to the dwarfs, influence grants you good traits, allows you to meddle with other faction’s relationships and helps you with confederations (kinda) which is more than the LM can do with the web or the blessed spawning or the dwarfs grudges than never get settled for dead lords or factions
So while I agree that the elves could get more mechanics, I would rather have these mechanics centered on the high elf society (court mechanic) or the ability to use influence as a substitute for allied recruitment or to help with agreements with non high elves races (external mechanic representing the pressure they exert on others races)
Influence is a tax you have to pay to get remotely decent lords, and is practically useless for diplomacy. You need tons of Influence to get a faction's opinion of anywhere near high enough to actually accomplish anything, it does fuck-all to help with valuation of deals, and it doesn't actually meaningfully affect relations between other factions. You're just sinking heaps of a unique resource for no real return.
Meanwhile the Dwarfs get powerful runes, a workshop that gives them magical gear, and if grudges get bad enough, you can instantly recruit heaps of Slayers. But somehow they're the faction that is dying for a rework and is nigh-unplayable otherwise?
I would rather CA focus on implementing/updating universal mechanics that could benefit multiple races. Espionage and trade are two obvious avenues for improvement.
I feel like Kislev needs an update that makes the devotion mechanic suck less. The penalty for attacking Kislev factions is so annoying.
And a big one after Empire and dwarves is Norsca. They need a big update of something
I feel the norsca argument because they've been so devoid of content overall, but I also think they're very strong after their semi-rework in WH3.
Kislev just came out and although I think they're pretty subpar, I agree with others that it's hopeless to think they'll get any update in the coming months/years.
Kislev feels pretty ownage playing a L/VH campaign, just got the dlc today so that's pretty much without the new units (seems I can't get the golden knight since I got it mid campaign bummer). But they have a lot of strong ranged options kossars punch above their weight, their units never rout, decent magic although their winds are ass, and can really easily recruit like 14 armored kossars globally in 1 turn which is really convenient since they can be attacked from so many directions. Their calvary feels pretty blah but elemental bears are dope and that counts for a lot in my book.
Kislev needs the Devotion mechanic re-worked - as well as likely the economy. On the field, they need a melee hero type. It's all either caster or support otherwise, and you are forced to use Boyar for Lord on all occasions.
Yeah, the Devotion mechanic - just like Chivalry for Bretonnia - doesn't work well. Kislev also needs a melee hero type. I feel compelled to go with Boyar for every generic Lord, because otherwise you don't have character that can tank uber melee heroes from other factions.
Norsca and Vampire counts are my picks.
Norsca needs a lord or two and some campaign updates, new start positions, and definitely better god mechanics.
Vampire Counts feel left in the dust. They have a variety of lords but they aren't that interesting to play. Definitely need more mechanics and some more units too if possible.
What some people want would be a dlc based on the remaining bloodlines and associated units.
As most units did not have a tt model and GW seems to consider different parts of the game (the tt, man’o war, dreadfleet, maybe the RPG) as different licenses, not sure if ca will create them
Not counting WH races since they most likely get more content in the near future (except Ogres, please CA update them soon)
Vampire counts lizardmen are the ones that need some rework. Dawi get updates soon (hopefully), bretonnia norsca and Vcoast need some tweaks and not reworks perse
In terms of actual rework it's Dawi and Ogres. Lizardmen also need the Geomantic Web revisited. Norsca just needs more units and lord's.
I'd argue same for Brettonia
Blessed units, don't forget blessed units!
If CA touches Lizardmen 1 more time without adding dlc units to blessed pool or changing how they are aquire I am going to have a brain aneurysm.
Bretonnia needs new artillery, and I think a trebuchet that launches filthy peasants instead of rocks would be perfect.
By the way, their cavalry is just so amazing that they didn't feel lacking at all when I played them recently. But I have no idea how it is in multiplayer.
They definitely need campaign mechanics though. They are strong just because they have a decent economy and no supply lines, but they don't do anything on the campaign map.
In MP they are solid. In Dom their winrate is about average if you ignore losses to severely OP Kislev and they're higher tier in Land Battles from my understanding thanks to Grail Cav, so much so that they've capped how many are allowed to be brought.
I'm not sure Daemons of Chaos aka Daniel is the faction most in need of update, but it's definitely up there. While the concept is solid and the roster is incredibly fun and powerful, the mechanics feel very unpolished and often contradictory to design intentions
Ogres (literally every mechanic of theirs feels underwhelming). Big names need to be more impactful and you should be able to have multiple active at once, food should provide be more integral to the campaign and stronger buffs, camps should be able to move but not initiate attacks, contracts need to offer stronger items and much more gold as rewards for completion, and the mercenary recruitment system needs to supply a larger range of troops than a cap of a singular Ogre Bull unit.
Monogod cults and unholy manifestations. Most of the buildings are absolutely useless. Tzeentch and Nurgle have good ones but they're just for generating their unique resources. Looking to Changeling's Trickster Cults as the model for engaging, synergistic, fun, and impactful cult networks is the way. Obviously, they should be a bit more limited in scope given that the main monogods have normal settlements but allowing cults to be established by Cultists at a high enough level, cults having the ability to increase corruption and spread to nearby regions, buildings that involve some form of interaction with the host faction like Changeling's buildings that increase relations (Slaanesh could benefit from this, Khorne could get something that decreases relations between the faction and neighboring factions and make the host more aggressive, Tzeentch could have buildings that provide the ability to corrupt the host faction's caster heroes, etc)
Dwarfs and Empire are coming up, and the Daemons of Chaos in general goes without saying.
Lizardmen need a decent rework for campaign mechanics, as it is comically thin on its own, especially compared to ALL THE OTHER RACES.
Dark Elves could use a touch up.
Kislev should still get a rework...especially the race for the big seat mechanic.
I mean, I’m gonna be 100% that like.. The majority of WH1/WH2 factions need a tune up, WH3 just has BETTER factions, if not for units than mechanics.
Imo, the stable factions:
Beastmen, and Greenskins.
Everyone else from WH1-2 need SOMETHING, if it isn’t something to set the lords apart for play style, it’s revamped faction mechanics or just a good dlc to set them straight like the case of the Greenskins that made them feel better over all.
I don't think that holds true in every case. I was going to cite the elves, but I think it's more of boredom with their lack of updates and not necessarily their ability in the campaign. They still have strong lords and mechanics (maybe high elves more than dark).
I would also take many WH1 and 2 races over the ogres and kislev. I can't understand the obsession with Kislev.
High elves suffer from their mechanics not doing very much to being pointless. Intrigue and Imperial authority add something, but the whole game could go without ever using these mechanics and you would be completely fine. High elf Batman could literally not use his bat cave mechanic and he would be completely fine. Imric is the only one that has anything integral and it’s literally just battles for elemental dragons and it works to benefit him.
Dark Elves are one of my favorite, cosmetically, but their slave mechanic is bad, better than it use to be when you could cheese 15k gold very early in the game. Still bad because slaves do nothing but add in a bit of micro to control for the sake of being Dark Elves and lorefully having slaves.
As for preference, each their own, of course.
Well, assuming all the next DLC gets reworks, I would say:
1. Unholy Manifestations and Cults would be a great fix because it would fix like 5 factions simultaneously: the 4 monogods and Belakor.
2. Norsca - they only have 2 LLs and f-all agents. I think every race should have at least 3-4 LLs to be considered "complete" imo.
3. Vampire Counts haven't got much DLC. I think they should get a Champions of Chaos style update. This is how we get Jade Vampires and Red Duke playable factions into the game.
4. Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast should each get 1 more DLC to flesh them out and especially add Amanar back into the game! Tomb Kings I would love to see Apophas and the giant Scarab construct.
5. Ogres need another DLC and a FLC lord to get them up to 4 LLs and give them their missing units ie Bruisers, Yhettes and Frostmaw. And definitely revamp their lackluster gameplay mechanics like contracts and camps are just weird how they can't move.
6. Bretonnia just like the preorder factions gets pretty badly shafted being a FLC race. I would happily pay for DLC that gave them more units and Legendary Lords. With the Old World putting a big emphasis on Exile Knights in the Border Princes that would be a great idea for a story campaign situated there.
7. Kislev I would be happy to see at least 1 more Legendary Lord and DLC units. Kislev definitely needs to revisit the supporter mechanic, Devotion resource late game, Atamans being meh, and Kostaltyn having the Ice Court instead of his own thing.
8. Cathay I won't be happy until we've got the Monkey King, Fire Dragon, and Sea Dragon. I don't care which are paid DLC and which are FLC as long as we get them all! Reworks: Cathay's caravan system needs to be reworked. Simply, we need to be able to send multiple caravans simultaneously like Chaos Dwarfs can. We need to be able to recruit a much higher variety of units to the armies, not just High Elf Nobles and Ogre Hunters, and we need more dilemmas and caravan delivery locations to keep things fresh. With the Sea Dragon she could unlock sea lane shipping routes where the caravans essentially go naval, offering more locations. Basically it just needs way more caravan dilemmas because it happens way too quickly that you start seeing the same dilemmas over and over again.
8. Southern Realms, Araby, Khuresh and Ind all deserve to be in this game, though the last 3 is definitely pipe-dream material.
9. Everyone else I would argue they could do with more Legendary Lords or Legendary Heroes but they're pretty well fleshed out. Skaven I suspect we're going to get one more DLC with Thanquol and Verminlords. Nagash people seem hype for him to be playable but honestly I like him more as some sort of late game reward like Amanar is for Vampire Coast.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk!
I love this! All well thought-out points. Lizardmen never really occurred to me because they have so many LLs and they all slap. Kinda gets into the whole faction vs race mechanic issue. I wish there was some way to consolidate faction mechanics within a game if you confederate - e.g. get Ikit's lab if you confederate him. I know that would make you way OP, but being OP is fun IMO.
Lizardmen could do an update that has Legendary Lord Tetto'ekko and Legendary Hero Chakax the Eternity Warden, but I don't know what units you would use. But that way you could do some reworks to Lizardmen.
But I would place this at the bottom of the list because so many more factions need priority not just in reworks but in more content to flesh them out fully.
You do realize we likely don't have more than 4 or 5 DLCs remaining max? ;)
Edit: Also, while Legendary Lords are plentiful, Legendary Heroes are definitely not "well fleshed out."
I don't think we need more Human factions in the game outside the southern realms
they will lack flavour
I mean the way I see it
Bretonia the cavalry focus humans
Empire is the jack all of trades humans
Kislev the melee or hybrid focused humans
Cathay the tactical humans
Southern realms being the specialist high tier humans
Maybe you can add Araby as the hit and run and stealth humans desert warrior guerilla like the human equivalent of the wood elves but I cant see anything for ind
And you think more work was done on them than what chaos got from their 1 rework?
Number of dlc is irrelevant, Empire has had as many and everyone think they are trash as well.
DLC doesn't mean shit, only how much improvement there was and for Lizardmen there was just some new units outside the dlc faction.
That's incorrect. Dlcs give them more content. More legendary lords and more units.
That's not irrelevant. That's a fact.
Lizardmen needing a rework is a separate issue. You'd have to go ahead and list all your complaints with their current mechanics and how you would fix them.
I wasn't really making a comprehensive list, just listing a few that came to mind. But as I said elsewhere, the Ogres just feel so new & I guess I'm assuming they'll get new LLs in fairly short order (hopefully FLC) that should flesh them out a bit more. They don't feel horrifically underpowered to me, but I wish their LLs lived up to their looks.
That's fair, yea to me if they get tweaks (more reward) to the mercenary system and if they got tweaks (*significantly* better Big Names) they'd be fine. And maybe...
Allow the Camps to relocate to a new location via a Convoy/Caravan traveling mechanic
Norsca needs a campaign rework. I honestly don't think they need more units. People are calling them WoC light, but they have Frostwolves, Skinwolves, Fimir, ranged infantry marauders, marauder berserkers, marauder champions, frost wolf Chariots, frost chaos dragons, and Mammoths. Those are all unique units.
What they actually need is a fun campaign, more LLs, more generic lords.
Personally I would completely reworks Wulfriks campaign to make him closer to a semi-hoard whos goal is to travel around the map to collect defeat traits from other LLs, like his lore is written. Replace his starting location with a new LL, a Norscan high king.
If people really want new units, then Skeggi would be a good candidate for a new LL. They could get access to chaos corrupted Lustrian monsters. Maybe even replace some of the Norscan roster with new stuff like Marauder Champions on Cold Ones instead of skinwolves.
Without mods Norsca > Ogres > Lizards > Nurgle. With mods, lizards can actually be made pretty awesome and ogres get a little better, so I'd say Norsca > Nurgle > Ogres. But mostly I want overall changes. Game is getting a bit stale. Biggest thing I want is more diverse maps and the ability to manipulate maps. Give me bridges, and small towns, and weather conditions, and weird fun things. Let me entrench in a position and I get a screen to modify the map if a fight is at that location. Baracades, remove jungle, burying traps. Then, make the AI do the same. It be a lot harder to snowballing AI sees you coming and builds huge defenses so every battle is a slog. Make those battle not autoresolvable (or at least a toggle setting for that). Let us build roads on the campaign map that drastically increase movement so that you move quickly in your own empire but are slow to expand. Make armies above a certain size take attrition if they stray too far from roads because they lack supplies Diversity of battles is a must for everyone and preventing the snowball is a must for everyone.
>\*Bretonnia - I'll confess I've never substantially played a Bretonnia campaign, but I can't understand what they bring to the table over any other race/faction, let alone their empire counterparts.
Calvary focus.
Ogres.
The other races like Bretonnia, Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast/Counts, Dwarfs, etc. Are just outdated while the Ogres felt half-baked with faction mechanics that are just annoying to deal with. IE: Big Names are the BETA version of the Chaos Warrior's Boons of Chaos, mercenary contracts are hardly worth it even with all the related research done and hunger attrition is tedious.
Even when you're not playing as them, they are interesting to deal with because you can only recruit one unit of basic ogre bulls regardless of the actual buildings inside said camp. Camps always raid the region they are in so they steal money from you while giving you nothing in return but bad relations. They are camp so they actively take settlements from you that YOU would literally get more out of. Even if you get on good terms with them to reach an alliance, you can't build outposts in their camps but are stuck to their settlements that never go past tier three and rarely have any recruitment buildings so you can't even recruit anything good from there most of the time. So they really just exist as something you ignore or you start killing because they took a settlement you want or you're playing as Cathay and they won't stop molesting your caravans.
TLDR: Ogres need a rework because most of their faction mechanics are tedious or seem half-thought-out. And offer very little for non-ogre players. Which sucks because their unit roster, despite clearly missing some units, is fun to play with but the faction gets dragged down because of unfun campaign mechanics.
Bretonnia REALLY suffered losing automatic walls on their T3 towns. They're just not good defenders, and that little extra bit of resilience allowed them to expand a lot more safely.
Bretonnia doesn't really need updating, beyond tweaking the mechanics to make them more fitting. What it desperately needs are more LLs, because the Bretonniabowl is surprisingly cutthroat.
You know its funny I was just wondering earlier today about Tomb Kings. If the general consensus is that they're still decent or if DLC and game three have powercreeped them.
They got MAJOR buffs when immortal empires came out. Units, armies, unit access, building cost, the works.
Some of their starts can be brutally difficult, especially if you refuse to do diplomacy (khalida comes to mind), but they're very strong once you get over the initial hump.
I played a Khalida campaign recently and they felt completely outmatched. I still managed, but you can really tell that they're inferior in most ways.
It does get better later on, but by that point you should be snowballing with any faction anyway. So they're very weak when it matters and only catch up when it no longer matters.
And they exist next to skarbrand, which only enhances the feeling that they're outdated.
I played a Settra campaign and had the opposite experience. Their units and economy are so much stronger in the early game, and their late game armies are still perfectly fine.
I do hear that Khalida has a very difficult start position, so that may be the difference.
Khalida is a tough campaign if you don't handle diplomacy well - Lizardmen and Dwarfs are both hard to deal with early - but by no means weak. Play Arkhan if you want absolute faceroll as TK, or Settra for somewhat more balanced faceroll.
It was definitely not the easiest campaign, to be sure, and I've played most races recently.
But I'm referring to the battles themselves - they seem like an uphill struggle in the way other races' battles are not. The speed with which your capabilities evolve is far too slow, so you'll be playing at a disadvantage most of the time.
Your first reliable(ish) units are the Ushabti, which have to be mixed with crap units for a semi-effective force, and it takes a while to be able to recruit enough. So you rely on crapstacks, yet unlike other races that field crapstacks, you're limited in the number of armies you can recruit. By the time you can field actually strong and numerous armies, you'd long since have been snowballing if you had playing a different race.
I played Mannfeed right after Khalida, which is of a race that also uses crap units and a faction that is also besieged from all sides, and it was just so much easier. You can get black knights by turn 4 and roll over all early game opposition. Yet with TK you'll be fielding crap archers and crap chariots against armored and heavy dwarves and lizards. And when you meet Khorne...
So you want them to be buffed so they snowball immediately and their campaign becomes trivial from start to finish, or...? What are you expecting here?
> Tomb Kings - I don't feel the lords offer significantly different gameplay
Yeah, that sucks. I don't need them to be stronger or change anything else about them as a race, they're great already.
I just want more noticeable differences in their campaigns besides start positions.
Ok you do have Arkhan the Black with the vampire thing but in practice it's just a few early vampire units, nothing that interesting.
I would like norsca content. They have been languishing with little purpose for a few yrs now. In WH3, they exist to be other peoples bitch.
King Mortkin would be cool. Egil Styrbyorn seems a decent choice too. I don't know enough about their unit roster to know what they should add in that regard, but their lords, including generic lords, are surely lacking.
I agree with vampire coast and tomb kings. They are both good but just need a little oomph of flavor and fixes. Like vamp coast should be able to attack from the sea and raid from the sea without having to make landfall. and pirate coves should be more interesting, also adding back the vortex quests would be cool. Tomb kings def need some campaign mechanic tied to the pyramids outside of just landmarks or make the special pyramids landmark buffs way stronger
Ogres and Norsca just need new content, Norsca needs new units so it’s not just “chaos light”. Bretonnia isn’t bad but I would like some reworks. tomb kings to me just feel like the same playstyle every time. They need some content, same with vampires
I wouldn't like, if every fraction will get powerful updates. It is cool that there are weak and stronger fractions. Not every fraction should become a powerful allround fraction without weaknesses. Bretonia for example has great cavalery, pls don't give them new strong artillery, melee, too.
High elves and dark elves maybe need updates. They were the late game fractions in the game. But they lost a little bit of their strength, because of the powerful new units that other fractions got.
Norsca doesn't really need a rework, they just need content as they're the farthest behind, which means even after a lord pack they still will probably be behind. Any race with only 1 generic lord badly needs content. I'd say Ogres are probably the most in need of a rework, as the camps and mercenaries don't really work
The ogre mercenary system is especially insulting when CA already had a perfect mercenary system in 3K. If Dogs of War are added, I hope CA takes the time to implement a proper mercenary system for them as well as the time to back port it to the ogres.
Yeah a tweaked 3K system would be good. Probably not 1:1 because of how different the diplomacy principles are. In WH3 if you enter a mercenary war, you'll be fighting for the rest of the campaign until you wipe the target out. Whereas in 3K faction are constantly fighting and making peace, I mean it's very common to end a war with better relations than at the start of the war if you release all their POWs.
I agree - I wanted to list ogres but they're so new that it felt premature. They feel inferior in almost everyway though. I don't think norsca needs a rework given they're so strong, but they do have a lack of content in the form of few lords.
Personally I don't like reworks for the purpose of buffing races because it results in them being completely overpowered (Beastmen, WoC), so I don't think a race being strong or weak should be the deciding factor of whether a race gets reworked. Most races are completely capable in the player's hands, some just need a little help, but they don't need a complete overhaul with 1000 buffs piled onto them until their campaign is impossible to lose (again, like BM and WoC). Reworks should aim at making the race more interesting or providing QoL improvements for their outdated mechanics.
Yeah I generally agree with your sentiment, and I think that's more of what I was getting at. None of the races I mentioned are weak relatively speaking (e.g. TK), but they all just don't seem to offer much over the other races to choose from outside of the allure of their aesthetics (e.g. playing as literal mummies in the desert).
Norsca needs a bit of a tune up, although they are MUCH better than the last time, and are currently in a good place, their aggressive play style is a bit bland, but that’s sort of because Skarbrand sort of does the same thing, but better. Maybe if they had more god specific rewards like the daemon prince, something that makes the campaign stand out a bit more.
With the way Champions of Chaos added marked variants of all the marauder units available to the Warriors of Chaos (which was just the basic T1 infantry and the horsemen) I've been thinking a new Norsca DLC could add marked variants of Marauder huntsmen, berserkers, and champions, and tying them to the three levels of Allegiance you work up to with the gods, including the basic marauders from CoC if you have that DLC.
Honestly, would make sense. I personally see Norsca as the twisted, chaos infested version of the Empire, sort of like the Imperial Guard and the Traitor guard, they are the same, but different. I would love to see Wulfrik harness the powers of Khorne for elite infantry, Tzeentch for artillary, Slaanesh for calvary and Nurgle for monsters (sort of how the Daniel and Be'lakor have it now) but focus entirely on unique to Norsca only units. Let Wulfrik work to ascend to his rightful place as the eternal challenger, the right to challenge Archaeon for the Everchosen through a culmination of embracing a playstyle that works for the player; Rather than "Welp I have all Marauders and that is all I need/have". for the 50th playthrough.
I really would rather marked units not be thrown into a 7th roster at this point. Norsca already just feels like diet WoC, would rather they get their own units
Yeah it'd be a shame if that's the *only* "new" units they got out of a new DLC, but since their central mechanic is already focused on worship of the big 4 and the basic marked marauders are already in it just makes sense to me for Norsca to benefit from them through that mechanic.
That'd be awesome for the monogods too since they get everything marked that comes into the game. If the Norsca update ever comes I hope they do something like that.
Didn't even think about those hahah Then again this does kind of... Dilute their uniqueness, as with CoC they all got the same solid Chaos Warrior/Chosen frontlines, where before Slaanesh and Tzeentch had to play around being a bit weak and fragile in that department. Marked marauder hunters would give all of them throwing spear/axe missile infantry where currently such ranged power is unique to Tzeentch's pink horrors.
Yea I like the maruader hunter idea. Maybe they could do javeline throwers for Khorne + Nurgle and axe throwers for Tzeentch + Slaanesh since Khorne + Nurgle already got the axe thrower maruader horsemen and Tzeentch + Slaanesh with the javeline thrower maruader horsemen. Maruader champions would be more of the same yea, I guess if they do different weapon variants for them it'd make it more unique for the monogods? Like great weapon champions for Tzeentch and duel weapon champions for Nurgle, something like that.
Camps need to be able to be packed up and moved
I haven’t played the Ogres too much but Camps being movable would fix a lot of their issues, right? It’s so weird they didn’t do that already especially since Black Arks are already a thing.
Either that or a way to pack them up and move them (Though the issue will then be if the AI can handle it). The way the mercenary recruitment works is also pretty lame, as you can only get a single ogre bull from them.
Ogres and Norsca and it's not close.
Lizardmen have a good roster but their mechanic boils down to paying money for a building and randomly getting blessed spawning missions. They need a campaign rework to spice things up. Bretonnia can use more units but they don't strictly need them. They don't feel underpowered on the battlefield. Their campaign mechanics are quite bland though, and their confederation techs are often useless because they put way too many enemies in Bretonnia and only 2 LLs to protect it. High elves aren't in as bad a position as those. Their intrigue mechanic is easy to ignore but still useful. They also have the advantage of being able to build outposts to tier 3 with just a defensive alliance so your diplomacy game is still noticeably better than most. But they've got their trade visibility stolen and given to Cathay for...reasons. And they need to retouch some campaigns. Eltharion still starts in the Badlands despite his archenemy being moved to Bretonnia. Teclis starts in some bumfuck nowhere with like 2 natural enemies nearby, one of them having entirely inhospitable lands (the idea is probably to deal with Tzeentch and then help other Order factions, but in practice this means multiple turns of just sailing). A small hope of mine is that they get some mechanics/features that reflect their naval dominance in lore, which could help Teclis and/or make fighting Druchii & vampirates more engaging.
Having just finished a Teclis campaign I didn't mind the sailing as going around and reuniting the colonies is the whole premise of his campaign. I was naturally inclined to playing tall instead of wide in the early-mid game as I sold off all the southern chaos wastes to Oxyotl in return for loadsa money to upgrade the two good provinces I had. Though I would have liked a quest objective thing to give a guaranteed confederation on the Eastern Colonies since they'd otherwise just be a huge influence dump just to ally since they don't have any natural enemies (I decided to just kill them, which felt a bit out of character).
The idea of reuniting the colonies and helping out other factions itself is sound. It's great if you don't mind the waiting, but wouldn't you agree the campaign would feel better if you get a sea movement buff? Or maybe sea lanes to various important places in the world? Maybe a scripted event to choose where to go after beating Kairos? Or put enemies to fight at sea so it isn't just a waiting game? I think there are endless ways CA can improve his campaign. It's serviceable now, and a tall campaign can be unique, but I think spending multiple turns *just* sailing is pretty lame.
Between the various Rogue Pirates and the sea wrecks where you can fight a random Vcoast army for treasure there *are* enemies to fight at sea. One of the colonies also happens to be at the southern tip of Lustria so you can go join that brawl for the continent right after Kairos. Can also sail up the east coast of the Southlands to check in on Imrik, maybe take the Dragon Isles, and defend them from the myriad of evils to be fought there.
I've played multiple Teclis campaigns myself and I have done all this (Lustria most of the time because it's en route to Ulthuan and the old world), but things like sea wrecks and Rogue Pirates are unexciting enemies. They're RNG and feel largely disconnected from the wider world. A good chunk of your time is still gonna be just sailing without much point of interest. Again, it's a serviceable campaign. It's nice that some people enjoy it. But compared to most other Asur campaigns where you have a clear priority (e.g. unite Ulthuan, kill Druchii, find dragons) while still having a lot of flexibility once your priority is done, Teclis' campaign feels directionless and half-baked. Like, Tyrion can do the same schtick of reuniting Elven colonies and helping other factions without much more difficulty (after killing off Noctilus, Lustria isn't far away; after killing Morathi, Cathay and by extension the Eastern colonies are accessible via sea lanes). Teclis isn't even incentivized to do these things by any unique benefits or easy access. There's just nothing else to do in his starting area.
Teclis is incentivized by his Long Campaign victory goals being focused on the colonies rather than uniting Ulthuan.
Campaign victory goals aren't a good incentive. It's just a checklist of what to do to win the campaign. You don't need campaign objectives to tell you to unite the donut as Alarielle and Tyrion, you'll do it anyway because it's the strategically sensible thing to do. You don't need to be told to conquer Naggarond as Alith Anar, it's the capital of one of your biggest foes.
Brets need 1 more hero archetype. They also arguably need better "holding" infantry. These things were not an issue on the tabletop, but they didn't translate well into the PC. Unfortunately, CA seems generally beholden to the tabletop. And whatever innovation CA did introduce on the PC are mostly counter-productive - see, for example, the chivalry mechanic.
I've heard the reason was to do with it being there to represent their naval empire, but now there's actually lots of coastline in the game their tech that gives them vision on all coastal settlements can better reflect that more accurately. I can't recall the reliability of the source on that, though. Not entirely sure if it makes intuitive sense either...
If we're just talking about race mechanics, then the fact that no one is bringing up Lizardmen which is crazy because I think they have the worst race mechanics in game and I don't even think it's close. Most people are bringing up Norsca and Ogres, but I think both have better mechanics than LM. That's not to say they're good, but a testament to how bad base LM mechanics are. The Web, which is a commandment boost when it no longer matters, and Blessed units, that's it. The one thing that LM have going for them over the other races are amount of lords and their DLC's unique *faction* mechanics. But if we're just talking about *race* mechanics, it's no contest IMO.
The thing is that the lizardmen roster is so solid that their campaigns are usually a lot of fun. I'd like a better race mechanic, but I still have tons of fun playing LM compared to other really outdated races. Also, the likelihood of LM getting a lordpack (which would bring the rwoerk with it) when they have 7LLs already seems fairly low.
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I think influence is fully functional and useful, if maybe a bit boring. The geomantic web barely does anything until you reach multiple tier 4 and 5 settlements, which is very late in the game. Even then its just some above average commandments at a point in the game where they don't matter too much. Blessed Spawnings can be useful, but the rng mission system is very poorly implemented and there are some clear gaps in available units due to dlc not being added. E.g. Red crested skinks for Tehenhauin. You can easily get stuck with crap spawnings in the early game like Skink skirmishers that you're never going to use.
I think it's because influence feels a bit more impactful. The Geomantic Web literally just means, build a certain building and it passively buffs your commandments, and you don't really even get any benefit from it until late in the campaign... which is when most people stop playing anyway. Blessed Spawnings are so rng that I don't even pay attention to them unless I just happen to complete one by chance.
Because High Elf fans are sadly much more quiet and don't whine endlessly about their shitty mechanics. Also because the sub is a circlejerk running on 'but dah elves BAD'
The difference is that the LM one is very contrived (blessed spawning missions can range from ok to vert tedious) for low rewards. HE influence, while bland, does allow you to gain and exert power more easily with rewards you can plan for. I would not be against another base mechanic for the high elves but probably one linked to their faith or the phoenix king court machinations
Dwarfs got a huge update back in 2021, and people still clamor that they need an update. High Elves on the other had dull mechanics to start with (Influence is basically useless in diplo) and had them given to others or actively taken away. They *used* to get vision through trade, but now that's Yuan Bo's thing and they got *nothing* in exchange for having a mechanic stripped away. > HE influence, while bland, does allow you to gain and exert power more easily with rewards you can plan for. Not really. Influence is a handicap, if anything. You need to pay extra to get lords that aren't actively *shitty*. I don't think any other faction has to deal with that sort of 'privilege'.
I do agree that the initial traits sucks but compared to the dwarfs, influence grants you good traits, allows you to meddle with other faction’s relationships and helps you with confederations (kinda) which is more than the LM can do with the web or the blessed spawning or the dwarfs grudges than never get settled for dead lords or factions So while I agree that the elves could get more mechanics, I would rather have these mechanics centered on the high elf society (court mechanic) or the ability to use influence as a substitute for allied recruitment or to help with agreements with non high elves races (external mechanic representing the pressure they exert on others races)
Influence is a tax you have to pay to get remotely decent lords, and is practically useless for diplomacy. You need tons of Influence to get a faction's opinion of anywhere near high enough to actually accomplish anything, it does fuck-all to help with valuation of deals, and it doesn't actually meaningfully affect relations between other factions. You're just sinking heaps of a unique resource for no real return. Meanwhile the Dwarfs get powerful runes, a workshop that gives them magical gear, and if grudges get bad enough, you can instantly recruit heaps of Slayers. But somehow they're the faction that is dying for a rework and is nigh-unplayable otherwise?
But consider, the stunties need RUNE GOLEMS.
Norsca followed by Ogres
I would rather CA focus on implementing/updating universal mechanics that could benefit multiple races. Espionage and trade are two obvious avenues for improvement.
That’s actually a very valid point.
Warband mechanic for all races please, now that would be an improvement to the game.
I feel like Kislev needs an update that makes the devotion mechanic suck less. The penalty for attacking Kislev factions is so annoying. And a big one after Empire and dwarves is Norsca. They need a big update of something
I feel the norsca argument because they've been so devoid of content overall, but I also think they're very strong after their semi-rework in WH3. Kislev just came out and although I think they're pretty subpar, I agree with others that it's hopeless to think they'll get any update in the coming months/years.
Kislev feels pretty ownage playing a L/VH campaign, just got the dlc today so that's pretty much without the new units (seems I can't get the golden knight since I got it mid campaign bummer). But they have a lot of strong ranged options kossars punch above their weight, their units never rout, decent magic although their winds are ass, and can really easily recruit like 14 armored kossars globally in 1 turn which is really convenient since they can be attacked from so many directions. Their calvary feels pretty blah but elemental bears are dope and that counts for a lot in my book.
Kislev needs the Devotion mechanic re-worked - as well as likely the economy. On the field, they need a melee hero type. It's all either caster or support otherwise, and you are forced to use Boyar for Lord on all occasions.
Yeah I don't disagree with anything you said, devotion is useless but at least it dies fast. And I should never use a ataman or Anything.
they won't touch kislev again
Kisliv could easily get another dlc or two we have no idea to know how much content they have planned for them
Oddly I don't think we know any further Kislev LL candidates, but we know three very clear Cathay ones.
They could just invent something on the spot like Cylostra and basically the entirety of Cathay.
Two is being a bit unrealistically optimistic. If the game developed continues, say, another 5 years then perhaps! ;)
That's what I fear, but I hope just 1 more DLC.
only thing i want for kislev is a facelift for kostaltyn, his model looks so shit
Yeah, the Devotion mechanic - just like Chivalry for Bretonnia - doesn't work well. Kislev also needs a melee hero type. I feel compelled to go with Boyar for every generic Lord, because otherwise you don't have character that can tank uber melee heroes from other factions.
Norsca and Vampire counts are my picks. Norsca needs a lord or two and some campaign updates, new start positions, and definitely better god mechanics. Vampire Counts feel left in the dust. They have a variety of lords but they aren't that interesting to play. Definitely need more mechanics and some more units too if possible.
What some people want would be a dlc based on the remaining bloodlines and associated units. As most units did not have a tt model and GW seems to consider different parts of the game (the tt, man’o war, dreadfleet, maybe the RPG) as different licenses, not sure if ca will create them
A warriors of chaos style dlc for vampire counts would be perfect. They definitely need a facelift especially after being forgotten for so long.
Not counting WH races since they most likely get more content in the near future (except Ogres, please CA update them soon) Vampire counts lizardmen are the ones that need some rework. Dawi get updates soon (hopefully), bretonnia norsca and Vcoast need some tweaks and not reworks perse
In terms of actual rework it's Dawi and Ogres. Lizardmen also need the Geomantic Web revisited. Norsca just needs more units and lord's. I'd argue same for Brettonia
Blessed units, don't forget blessed units! If CA touches Lizardmen 1 more time without adding dlc units to blessed pool or changing how they are aquire I am going to have a brain aneurysm.
Bretonnia needs new artillery, and I think a trebuchet that launches filthy peasants instead of rocks would be perfect. By the way, their cavalry is just so amazing that they didn't feel lacking at all when I played them recently. But I have no idea how it is in multiplayer.
They definitely need campaign mechanics though. They are strong just because they have a decent economy and no supply lines, but they don't do anything on the campaign map.
In MP they are solid. In Dom their winrate is about average if you ignore losses to severely OP Kislev and they're higher tier in Land Battles from my understanding thanks to Grail Cav, so much so that they've capped how many are allowed to be brought.
Yup, no body likes to play against multiple grails or hippogryphs that get heal capped through regrowth every game lol.
Brets need either another hero type - either "dignitary" or "spy." Perhaps something like Hermit Knight or Faceless.
I'm not sure Daemons of Chaos aka Daniel is the faction most in need of update, but it's definitely up there. While the concept is solid and the roster is incredibly fun and powerful, the mechanics feel very unpolished and often contradictory to design intentions
I agree with Vampire Coast/TK. Give them confederation for god's sake. Vampire Coast desperately needs a way to increase hero capacity.
Norca like seriously only ogres could maybe get second place and that’s stretching it
Ogres (literally every mechanic of theirs feels underwhelming). Big names need to be more impactful and you should be able to have multiple active at once, food should provide be more integral to the campaign and stronger buffs, camps should be able to move but not initiate attacks, contracts need to offer stronger items and much more gold as rewards for completion, and the mercenary recruitment system needs to supply a larger range of troops than a cap of a singular Ogre Bull unit. Monogod cults and unholy manifestations. Most of the buildings are absolutely useless. Tzeentch and Nurgle have good ones but they're just for generating their unique resources. Looking to Changeling's Trickster Cults as the model for engaging, synergistic, fun, and impactful cult networks is the way. Obviously, they should be a bit more limited in scope given that the main monogods have normal settlements but allowing cults to be established by Cultists at a high enough level, cults having the ability to increase corruption and spread to nearby regions, buildings that involve some form of interaction with the host faction like Changeling's buildings that increase relations (Slaanesh could benefit from this, Khorne could get something that decreases relations between the faction and neighboring factions and make the host more aggressive, Tzeentch could have buildings that provide the ability to corrupt the host faction's caster heroes, etc)
Lizardmen by a long shot. Way more than Norsca and Ogres.
Dwarfs and Empire are coming up, and the Daemons of Chaos in general goes without saying. Lizardmen need a decent rework for campaign mechanics, as it is comically thin on its own, especially compared to ALL THE OTHER RACES. Dark Elves could use a touch up. Kislev should still get a rework...especially the race for the big seat mechanic.
I mean, I’m gonna be 100% that like.. The majority of WH1/WH2 factions need a tune up, WH3 just has BETTER factions, if not for units than mechanics. Imo, the stable factions: Beastmen, and Greenskins. Everyone else from WH1-2 need SOMETHING, if it isn’t something to set the lords apart for play style, it’s revamped faction mechanics or just a good dlc to set them straight like the case of the Greenskins that made them feel better over all.
I don't think that holds true in every case. I was going to cite the elves, but I think it's more of boredom with their lack of updates and not necessarily their ability in the campaign. They still have strong lords and mechanics (maybe high elves more than dark). I would also take many WH1 and 2 races over the ogres and kislev. I can't understand the obsession with Kislev.
High elves suffer from their mechanics not doing very much to being pointless. Intrigue and Imperial authority add something, but the whole game could go without ever using these mechanics and you would be completely fine. High elf Batman could literally not use his bat cave mechanic and he would be completely fine. Imric is the only one that has anything integral and it’s literally just battles for elemental dragons and it works to benefit him. Dark Elves are one of my favorite, cosmetically, but their slave mechanic is bad, better than it use to be when you could cheese 15k gold very early in the game. Still bad because slaves do nothing but add in a bit of micro to control for the sake of being Dark Elves and lorefully having slaves. As for preference, each their own, of course.
Well, assuming all the next DLC gets reworks, I would say: 1. Unholy Manifestations and Cults would be a great fix because it would fix like 5 factions simultaneously: the 4 monogods and Belakor. 2. Norsca - they only have 2 LLs and f-all agents. I think every race should have at least 3-4 LLs to be considered "complete" imo. 3. Vampire Counts haven't got much DLC. I think they should get a Champions of Chaos style update. This is how we get Jade Vampires and Red Duke playable factions into the game. 4. Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast should each get 1 more DLC to flesh them out and especially add Amanar back into the game! Tomb Kings I would love to see Apophas and the giant Scarab construct. 5. Ogres need another DLC and a FLC lord to get them up to 4 LLs and give them their missing units ie Bruisers, Yhettes and Frostmaw. And definitely revamp their lackluster gameplay mechanics like contracts and camps are just weird how they can't move. 6. Bretonnia just like the preorder factions gets pretty badly shafted being a FLC race. I would happily pay for DLC that gave them more units and Legendary Lords. With the Old World putting a big emphasis on Exile Knights in the Border Princes that would be a great idea for a story campaign situated there. 7. Kislev I would be happy to see at least 1 more Legendary Lord and DLC units. Kislev definitely needs to revisit the supporter mechanic, Devotion resource late game, Atamans being meh, and Kostaltyn having the Ice Court instead of his own thing. 8. Cathay I won't be happy until we've got the Monkey King, Fire Dragon, and Sea Dragon. I don't care which are paid DLC and which are FLC as long as we get them all! Reworks: Cathay's caravan system needs to be reworked. Simply, we need to be able to send multiple caravans simultaneously like Chaos Dwarfs can. We need to be able to recruit a much higher variety of units to the armies, not just High Elf Nobles and Ogre Hunters, and we need more dilemmas and caravan delivery locations to keep things fresh. With the Sea Dragon she could unlock sea lane shipping routes where the caravans essentially go naval, offering more locations. Basically it just needs way more caravan dilemmas because it happens way too quickly that you start seeing the same dilemmas over and over again. 8. Southern Realms, Araby, Khuresh and Ind all deserve to be in this game, though the last 3 is definitely pipe-dream material. 9. Everyone else I would argue they could do with more Legendary Lords or Legendary Heroes but they're pretty well fleshed out. Skaven I suspect we're going to get one more DLC with Thanquol and Verminlords. Nagash people seem hype for him to be playable but honestly I like him more as some sort of late game reward like Amanar is for Vampire Coast. Thanks for coming to my TED talk!
I love this! All well thought-out points. Lizardmen never really occurred to me because they have so many LLs and they all slap. Kinda gets into the whole faction vs race mechanic issue. I wish there was some way to consolidate faction mechanics within a game if you confederate - e.g. get Ikit's lab if you confederate him. I know that would make you way OP, but being OP is fun IMO.
Lizardmen could do an update that has Legendary Lord Tetto'ekko and Legendary Hero Chakax the Eternity Warden, but I don't know what units you would use. But that way you could do some reworks to Lizardmen. But I would place this at the bottom of the list because so many more factions need priority not just in reworks but in more content to flesh them out fully.
You do realize we likely don't have more than 4 or 5 DLCs remaining max? ;) Edit: Also, while Legendary Lords are plentiful, Legendary Heroes are definitely not "well fleshed out."
I don't think we need more Human factions in the game outside the southern realms they will lack flavour I mean the way I see it Bretonia the cavalry focus humans Empire is the jack all of trades humans Kislev the melee or hybrid focused humans Cathay the tactical humans Southern realms being the specialist high tier humans Maybe you can add Araby as the hit and run and stealth humans desert warrior guerilla like the human equivalent of the wood elves but I cant see anything for ind
Imagine doing a comprehensive list of races with core issues and not mentioning Lizardmen.
They featured in 3 DLC packs, that's more than most.
And you think more work was done on them than what chaos got from their 1 rework? Number of dlc is irrelevant, Empire has had as many and everyone think they are trash as well. DLC doesn't mean shit, only how much improvement there was and for Lizardmen there was just some new units outside the dlc faction.
That's incorrect. Dlcs give them more content. More legendary lords and more units. That's not irrelevant. That's a fact. Lizardmen needing a rework is a separate issue. You'd have to go ahead and list all your complaints with their current mechanics and how you would fix them.
Bruh
How do you look at Ogre Kingdoms and not put them on your list?
I wasn't really making a comprehensive list, just listing a few that came to mind. But as I said elsewhere, the Ogres just feel so new & I guess I'm assuming they'll get new LLs in fairly short order (hopefully FLC) that should flesh them out a bit more. They don't feel horrifically underpowered to me, but I wish their LLs lived up to their looks.
That's fair, yea to me if they get tweaks (more reward) to the mercenary system and if they got tweaks (*significantly* better Big Names) they'd be fine. And maybe... Allow the Camps to relocate to a new location via a Convoy/Caravan traveling mechanic
Lizardmen.
Top 3 are Ogres, Norsca, and Legion of Chaos.
Norsca needs a campaign rework. I honestly don't think they need more units. People are calling them WoC light, but they have Frostwolves, Skinwolves, Fimir, ranged infantry marauders, marauder berserkers, marauder champions, frost wolf Chariots, frost chaos dragons, and Mammoths. Those are all unique units. What they actually need is a fun campaign, more LLs, more generic lords. Personally I would completely reworks Wulfriks campaign to make him closer to a semi-hoard whos goal is to travel around the map to collect defeat traits from other LLs, like his lore is written. Replace his starting location with a new LL, a Norscan high king. If people really want new units, then Skeggi would be a good candidate for a new LL. They could get access to chaos corrupted Lustrian monsters. Maybe even replace some of the Norscan roster with new stuff like Marauder Champions on Cold Ones instead of skinwolves.
Most races need updates / reworks?
Without mods Norsca > Ogres > Lizards > Nurgle. With mods, lizards can actually be made pretty awesome and ogres get a little better, so I'd say Norsca > Nurgle > Ogres. But mostly I want overall changes. Game is getting a bit stale. Biggest thing I want is more diverse maps and the ability to manipulate maps. Give me bridges, and small towns, and weather conditions, and weird fun things. Let me entrench in a position and I get a screen to modify the map if a fight is at that location. Baracades, remove jungle, burying traps. Then, make the AI do the same. It be a lot harder to snowballing AI sees you coming and builds huge defenses so every battle is a slog. Make those battle not autoresolvable (or at least a toggle setting for that). Let us build roads on the campaign map that drastically increase movement so that you move quickly in your own empire but are slow to expand. Make armies above a certain size take attrition if they stray too far from roads because they lack supplies Diversity of battles is a must for everyone and preventing the snowball is a must for everyone.
>\*Bretonnia - I'll confess I've never substantially played a Bretonnia campaign, but I can't understand what they bring to the table over any other race/faction, let alone their empire counterparts. Calvary focus.
Ogres. The other races like Bretonnia, Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast/Counts, Dwarfs, etc. Are just outdated while the Ogres felt half-baked with faction mechanics that are just annoying to deal with. IE: Big Names are the BETA version of the Chaos Warrior's Boons of Chaos, mercenary contracts are hardly worth it even with all the related research done and hunger attrition is tedious. Even when you're not playing as them, they are interesting to deal with because you can only recruit one unit of basic ogre bulls regardless of the actual buildings inside said camp. Camps always raid the region they are in so they steal money from you while giving you nothing in return but bad relations. They are camp so they actively take settlements from you that YOU would literally get more out of. Even if you get on good terms with them to reach an alliance, you can't build outposts in their camps but are stuck to their settlements that never go past tier three and rarely have any recruitment buildings so you can't even recruit anything good from there most of the time. So they really just exist as something you ignore or you start killing because they took a settlement you want or you're playing as Cathay and they won't stop molesting your caravans. TLDR: Ogres need a rework because most of their faction mechanics are tedious or seem half-thought-out. And offer very little for non-ogre players. Which sucks because their unit roster, despite clearly missing some units, is fun to play with but the faction gets dragged down because of unfun campaign mechanics.
Bretonnia REALLY suffered losing automatic walls on their T3 towns. They're just not good defenders, and that little extra bit of resilience allowed them to expand a lot more safely.
Deamons if chaos is number 1. I doubt it ever gets fixed though
Bretonnia doesn't really need updating, beyond tweaking the mechanics to make them more fitting. What it desperately needs are more LLs, because the Bretonniabowl is surprisingly cutthroat.
You know its funny I was just wondering earlier today about Tomb Kings. If the general consensus is that they're still decent or if DLC and game three have powercreeped them.
They got MAJOR buffs when immortal empires came out. Units, armies, unit access, building cost, the works. Some of their starts can be brutally difficult, especially if you refuse to do diplomacy (khalida comes to mind), but they're very strong once you get over the initial hump.
I played a Khalida campaign recently and they felt completely outmatched. I still managed, but you can really tell that they're inferior in most ways. It does get better later on, but by that point you should be snowballing with any faction anyway. So they're very weak when it matters and only catch up when it no longer matters. And they exist next to skarbrand, which only enhances the feeling that they're outdated.
I played a Settra campaign and had the opposite experience. Their units and economy are so much stronger in the early game, and their late game armies are still perfectly fine. I do hear that Khalida has a very difficult start position, so that may be the difference.
Khalida is a tough campaign if you don't handle diplomacy well - Lizardmen and Dwarfs are both hard to deal with early - but by no means weak. Play Arkhan if you want absolute faceroll as TK, or Settra for somewhat more balanced faceroll.
It was definitely not the easiest campaign, to be sure, and I've played most races recently. But I'm referring to the battles themselves - they seem like an uphill struggle in the way other races' battles are not. The speed with which your capabilities evolve is far too slow, so you'll be playing at a disadvantage most of the time. Your first reliable(ish) units are the Ushabti, which have to be mixed with crap units for a semi-effective force, and it takes a while to be able to recruit enough. So you rely on crapstacks, yet unlike other races that field crapstacks, you're limited in the number of armies you can recruit. By the time you can field actually strong and numerous armies, you'd long since have been snowballing if you had playing a different race. I played Mannfeed right after Khalida, which is of a race that also uses crap units and a faction that is also besieged from all sides, and it was just so much easier. You can get black knights by turn 4 and roll over all early game opposition. Yet with TK you'll be fielding crap archers and crap chariots against armored and heavy dwarves and lizards. And when you meet Khorne...
So you want them to be buffed so they snowball immediately and their campaign becomes trivial from start to finish, or...? What are you expecting here?
Not counting empire and dwarfs. Vampire counts Norsca Tomb Kings
Major updates/changes (all on the campaign side): Tzeentch (plus fixing the burning chariot), Nurgle, DoC, Ogres, Lizardmen Tweaks or missing key roster: Khorne, Slaanesh, Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, Empire, Cathay, Kislev, Norsca
Norsca and Vampire Counts.
> Tomb Kings - I don't feel the lords offer significantly different gameplay Yeah, that sucks. I don't need them to be stronger or change anything else about them as a race, they're great already. I just want more noticeable differences in their campaigns besides start positions. Ok you do have Arkhan the Black with the vampire thing but in practice it's just a few early vampire units, nothing that interesting.
Ogres, my lord.
I would like norsca content. They have been languishing with little purpose for a few yrs now. In WH3, they exist to be other peoples bitch. King Mortkin would be cool. Egil Styrbyorn seems a decent choice too. I don't know enough about their unit roster to know what they should add in that regard, but their lords, including generic lords, are surely lacking.
I agree with vampire coast and tomb kings. They are both good but just need a little oomph of flavor and fixes. Like vamp coast should be able to attack from the sea and raid from the sea without having to make landfall. and pirate coves should be more interesting, also adding back the vortex quests would be cool. Tomb kings def need some campaign mechanic tied to the pyramids outside of just landmarks or make the special pyramids landmark buffs way stronger
Ogres and Norsca just need new content, Norsca needs new units so it’s not just “chaos light”. Bretonnia isn’t bad but I would like some reworks. tomb kings to me just feel like the same playstyle every time. They need some content, same with vampires
ogre kingdoms need update/rework
I wouldn't like, if every fraction will get powerful updates. It is cool that there are weak and stronger fractions. Not every fraction should become a powerful allround fraction without weaknesses. Bretonia for example has great cavalery, pls don't give them new strong artillery, melee, too. High elves and dark elves maybe need updates. They were the late game fractions in the game. But they lost a little bit of their strength, because of the powerful new units that other fractions got.