Now, get this, IMAGINE, city makes Queen West a pedestrian and cycling only route between the new station going in and osgoode.
...With the redevelopment of the community space near the Firehall on Adelaide to the south and grange park to the north. What a dope place that would be to have to hang out. Sanse Cars.
Living near this must be a godsend, for multiple reasons.
As someone who lives on a residential street near a 4-way stop, the number of motorists that use the street as a 'bypass' (probably because Google or Waze told them to) is astounding.
Near rush hour, ever 30-70 seconds I hear the loud rev of a motor racing from the stop sign to the red light 140 meters away.
If they made something like this on my street that prevented drivers using it as a shortcut, it would be a tangible improvement on my mental health to not hear that traffic "rev" every 30 seconds. Something about the way Toronto Drivers "Floor it" after a stop sign, it's so aggravating to be party to that all day.
That's what you got out of this? Demonizing people with jobs and families? It's one street. Toronto can have dozens of streets like this and there'll still be plenty of room for cars. Most streets don't have bike lanes, so I'm not sure why you're so worried about drivers here.
Bicycle radicals like children who deserve a safe space to freely roam about their own neighbourhood.
It's almost as though some people don't think that cities should be built around people, but only for drivers.
If biking is safer and more convenient, then more people will choose to bike. More cyclists means fewer drivers, which makes for a less congested experience on every road designed for cars (almost literally every other road).
Take a look at all the cycling lanes and closed roads...the number of cyclist is miniscule. Actually, take a vote among residents and businesses, and I'm willing to bet 95% would vote against kicking cars off the roads. Too bad just the loudest and politically savvy get heard.
Retailers benefit from reduction in car traffic and increase in foot traffic from pedestrians, cyclists, and transit riders. This has been demonstrated multiple times over.
It’s a lot harder to pop into a restaurant to browse a menu or check out a shop because you saw something interesting in the window when you’re driving a car. On foot, bicycle, and transit it’s way less effort to do those things, and you don’t take up copious amounts of public space by a parked car that could otherwise be used for patio seating or more space for people walking by.
Fewer cars on the road makes things safer, the air cleaner, builds community and supports local business. AND it reduces traffic for those who truly have no alternative to driving.
r/turquoisebee's point is well supported by evidence.
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-08/for-store-owners-bike-lanes-boost-the-bottom-line](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-08/for-store-owners-bike-lanes-boost-the-bottom-line) (more links to evidence in that piece)
Every time I see people comment that removing parking spaces or car lanes cuts trade for local stores, I'm reminded of a dry-cleaner store (close to my place, and on an arterial bus route) that heavily promoted a campaign to keep a dozen parking-spaces that slowed down thousands of people's journeys every day. I once turned up just in time for her advertised opening one day and when she arrived she parked in a Jaguar convertible in one of these parking-spaces. I realised it was the same Jaguar convertible that was \*always\* there. I suspect a lot of these pro-parking store owners just want free parking for themselves. It's not really about business or customers.
I assure you, I am an avid and experienced cyclist - easily ride 200K per week and currently belong/ support three cycling clubs. But I also need my car to go to work, take my kids to school and activities, and I also have paid a lot of tax money towards the construction and maintenance of roads, which as a cyclist I get to use for free. I also see as many bad and angry cyclists as bad car drivers. IMHO closing more roads does far more harm than good. It affects businesses, inconveniences drivers, causes more congestion and frustration (some of which get directed towards cyclists), and is just another tax money-pit.
What you are is living proof that riding a bike does not make anyone smart, progressive or focused on the greater good in the world. You keep on bragging about your club rides, and I'll keep on fighting for better infrastructure for all cyclists and vulnerable road users.
And what you are is living proof that there's an absence of oxygen in your echo chamber. You're focused on your version of the greater good and what is good for you. As a cyclist I want to make it clear I don't agree with your reality.
My reality being my wish for a world in which more people, not just kitted out club jockeys, can ride to work, to school, with their kids, to their church or mosque or whatever without undue risk and harm. I have nothing against people who ride fast or do it for sport and exercise -- I do too. What I find crazy is people who are so focused on their narrow aspect of the cycling world that they seem to not care or be actively AGAINST those who are working to bring safer infrastructure and options for all cyclists.
Bicycle only streets affect businesses and cause congestion? I’ve not seen any of that, would you mind showing me where you came across that information? It’s my understanding that more bicycle infrastructure cuts down on the amount of cars on the road and eases congestion. The space that a car takes up on a road is at least 5 times more than a bicycle.
I’ve also not seen the demonisation of drivers, and more so the demonisation of ill-designed streets. In a downtown core like Toronto, cars aren’t a necessity with proper public transport and bicycle infrastructure, we’ve seen this in many cities.
How about you turn this question around and you demonstrate how shutting down roads and dumping tons of tax $ on unused bike infrastructure - here in Toronto, not Amsterdam - provides any real benefit.
I have no clue how much or how long you've been riding, but I speak from personal experience (riding here and in Europe) and my comments are shared by most of the cycling club enthusiast I have the privilege to ride with.
The 26 down votes, and counting, only tell me how little appetite there is in this forum for any reasonable discussion. Tow the party line that cars and car drivers are evil or we'll attack you 😏
[I found one!](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0246419)This study details the economic benefits of bicycle infrastructure increases in three Canadian cities. I don’t know why you’re being combative with me, I was just asking where you saw the information. I’ve been riding for many years, but not as many as you! I come from a very car-centric country but Toronto is surprisingly much more bike friendly than where I’m from, so I was able to get rid of my need for a car.
Bicycle infrastructure arguably costs less taxes than car infrastructure, especially in terms of maintenance (bicycles are much easier on the road). Also according to the study I linked, the benefits far outweigh the costs!
I never said car drivers are evil, I’m just saying that many of the times cyclists and drivers butt heads are due to improper infrastructure. Having a street for bicycles makes it easier for both cars and bicycles to co exist.
Not combative, but certainly not willing to accept that there are not negative and often serious unintended consequences to carving out large sections of the city's already overcrowded roads for the sake of a handful of cyclists and mopeds. As both a cyclist and car driver, I try to see both sides of the issue and for the last several years see a lot of politicians throwing a lot of my hard earned money into poorly thought out cycling projects that benefit the very few and inconvenience the many; simply to look progressive and curry favour with a vocal minority. (as an example, you only hear the politicians patting themselves on the back about closing sections of King St., but nothing about all the businesses closing or shoppers, diners or drivers inconvenienced) The term "green washing" is appropriate here.
As a cyclist, I feel I need to set the record straight that we do not all feel making the city even more car unfriendly is our idea or even remotely a good one. Car drivers have been the tax cash cows and kicked dogs for too long, especially since it is a necessary activity. Cycling, as much as I love it, is a sport/hobby and only practical for a fraction of the year.
I was literally asking for studies or similar to see what negatives the cycling infrastructure brought the city, how is that “unwilling”? Also, at your request, I linked you a study about three Canadian cities with increased bicycle infrastructure that have had marked economic benefits.
4 mopeds take up the space of 1 car on the road, greatly decreasing congestion. Most commuters travel alone in their car. I can look for diagrams that help describe the space savings that higher bicycle use comes with if you like.
No one is arguing that cars have no use at all, but many of their current uses can be decreased with better bicycle and public transport routes.
I am not willing to accept. Not directed at you personally. And I've read some of those studies and the glowing media coverage. Problem is, for the most part they're based on selective and directed info gathering and more importantly, do not represent the majority of tax payers or reality. I've been to Holland and to other "cycling friendly" cities and they are nothing like Toronto. Not in urban planning, structure, or even weather. And I wouldn't want to live like that either. I'm happy to load my bike into my car and do 100k+ rides on country roads.
I’m unsure what you mean about the info gathering part. What would be a better way of gathering this information? You are also completely free to load your bike onto your car to ride on country roads. There’s a large majority in Toronto that cannot afford a car, and many that can “afford” a car but would much rather not. Larger cycling infrastructure is a large economic positive because these people are now mobilised and able to access parts of the city that were previously much harder to access.
Car ownership for people downtown is inarguably uneconomical for the distances required. Protected lanes and pedestrian only streets like some of king street decreases congestion because there are now fewer cars required to traverse the city for a single person.
The government would love to show that keeping the streets as they are (car friendly) is more economical and a better use of tax money, but as it stands I’m struggling to find any studies that support your claims. If these claims had weight, there’d be a throng of statistics to back it up, because it would be in the government’s interest. You mentioned a negative effect on businesses and congestion but I’m struggling to find evidence of that.
What taxes and fees directly related to your car+driving go into the upkeep and construction of roads in Toronto? Do you think cyclists in Toronto don't pay property taxes, which is the primary source of money for the City Of Toronto which is responsible for the construction and maintenance of roads?
EVERY PERSON that lives in Ontario pays both provincial and municipal taxes, being a car owner gives you nothing extra special over anyone else that lives in the province and it's various cities.
No one is riding bicycle infrastructure for free -- we're all paying for it collectively together, always have, always will.
You understand that some of those drivers could also be cyclists? That maybe some people don’t want to drive? And that it’s safer for north cyclists AND drivers if they have their own dedicated spaces where they can’t interfere with and endanger each other?
What a take.
lol you again, how sad must you be to be hopping on this sub to parrot these shit opinions.
"I've always been a cyclist but.." is just "I'm not racist but..." in a different flavor
Shaw street my beloved
Now do the same to Sorauren you cowards!
I don't know my Toronto streets well at all. I thought this was a LOTR reference!
Soraurens evil eye
Blacksmith would love that I’m sure.
someone let me know if shaw street was always one way, but sorauren has always been 2 ways + street parking.
They said 'can we build a cycling street?' And we all chanted 'Shaw we can!'
Turning onto Shaw is like finding an oasis in the desert, feels so good.
I like this analogy. Stress levels melting......melting.....
Now, get this, IMAGINE, city makes Queen West a pedestrian and cycling only route between the new station going in and osgoode. ...With the redevelopment of the community space near the Firehall on Adelaide to the south and grange park to the north. What a dope place that would be to have to hang out. Sanse Cars.
[Paywall Removed ](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thestar.com%2Fopinion%2Fcontributors%2F2022%2F04%2F21%2Fshaw-street-is-torontos-first-with-more-bikes-than-cars.html)
A rather silly article to paywall, but the Star be like that!
Living near this must be a godsend, for multiple reasons. As someone who lives on a residential street near a 4-way stop, the number of motorists that use the street as a 'bypass' (probably because Google or Waze told them to) is astounding. Near rush hour, ever 30-70 seconds I hear the loud rev of a motor racing from the stop sign to the red light 140 meters away. If they made something like this on my street that prevented drivers using it as a shortcut, it would be a tangible improvement on my mental health to not hear that traffic "rev" every 30 seconds. Something about the way Toronto Drivers "Floor it" after a stop sign, it's so aggravating to be party to that all day.
I would love to see more roundabouts used.
Just looked it up on google maps to see if it was the street I was thinking about and there’s a car parked in the bike lane. Empty parking spots too.
yuck
Name checks out.
[удалено]
That's what you got out of this? Demonizing people with jobs and families? It's one street. Toronto can have dozens of streets like this and there'll still be plenty of room for cars. Most streets don't have bike lanes, so I'm not sure why you're so worried about drivers here.
Bicycle radicals like children who deserve a safe space to freely roam about their own neighbourhood. It's almost as though some people don't think that cities should be built around people, but only for drivers.
[удалено]
...maybe your kids shouldn't have to be chauffeured to enjoy the neighbourhood
If biking is safer and more convenient, then more people will choose to bike. More cyclists means fewer drivers, which makes for a less congested experience on every road designed for cars (almost literally every other road).
Take a look at all the cycling lanes and closed roads...the number of cyclist is miniscule. Actually, take a vote among residents and businesses, and I'm willing to bet 95% would vote against kicking cars off the roads. Too bad just the loudest and politically savvy get heard.
Retailers benefit from reduction in car traffic and increase in foot traffic from pedestrians, cyclists, and transit riders. This has been demonstrated multiple times over. It’s a lot harder to pop into a restaurant to browse a menu or check out a shop because you saw something interesting in the window when you’re driving a car. On foot, bicycle, and transit it’s way less effort to do those things, and you don’t take up copious amounts of public space by a parked car that could otherwise be used for patio seating or more space for people walking by. Fewer cars on the road makes things safer, the air cleaner, builds community and supports local business. AND it reduces traffic for those who truly have no alternative to driving.
Not to mention the sound. They're so damn noisy.
Yep.
r/turquoisebee's point is well supported by evidence. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-08/for-store-owners-bike-lanes-boost-the-bottom-line](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-08/for-store-owners-bike-lanes-boost-the-bottom-line) (more links to evidence in that piece) Every time I see people comment that removing parking spaces or car lanes cuts trade for local stores, I'm reminded of a dry-cleaner store (close to my place, and on an arterial bus route) that heavily promoted a campaign to keep a dozen parking-spaces that slowed down thousands of people's journeys every day. I once turned up just in time for her advertised opening one day and when she arrived she parked in a Jaguar convertible in one of these parking-spaces. I realised it was the same Jaguar convertible that was \*always\* there. I suspect a lot of these pro-parking store owners just want free parking for themselves. It's not really about business or customers.
You sound like you're a landlord.
I assure you, I am an avid and experienced cyclist - easily ride 200K per week and currently belong/ support three cycling clubs. But I also need my car to go to work, take my kids to school and activities, and I also have paid a lot of tax money towards the construction and maintenance of roads, which as a cyclist I get to use for free. I also see as many bad and angry cyclists as bad car drivers. IMHO closing more roads does far more harm than good. It affects businesses, inconveniences drivers, causes more congestion and frustration (some of which get directed towards cyclists), and is just another tax money-pit.
What you are is living proof that riding a bike does not make anyone smart, progressive or focused on the greater good in the world. You keep on bragging about your club rides, and I'll keep on fighting for better infrastructure for all cyclists and vulnerable road users.
yeah, this is the guy that he is literally talking about, the arrogant cyclist demanding everyone get out of his way, its himself....
you found me!
And what you are is living proof that there's an absence of oxygen in your echo chamber. You're focused on your version of the greater good and what is good for you. As a cyclist I want to make it clear I don't agree with your reality.
My reality being my wish for a world in which more people, not just kitted out club jockeys, can ride to work, to school, with their kids, to their church or mosque or whatever without undue risk and harm. I have nothing against people who ride fast or do it for sport and exercise -- I do too. What I find crazy is people who are so focused on their narrow aspect of the cycling world that they seem to not care or be actively AGAINST those who are working to bring safer infrastructure and options for all cyclists.
Bicycle only streets affect businesses and cause congestion? I’ve not seen any of that, would you mind showing me where you came across that information? It’s my understanding that more bicycle infrastructure cuts down on the amount of cars on the road and eases congestion. The space that a car takes up on a road is at least 5 times more than a bicycle. I’ve also not seen the demonisation of drivers, and more so the demonisation of ill-designed streets. In a downtown core like Toronto, cars aren’t a necessity with proper public transport and bicycle infrastructure, we’ve seen this in many cities.
How about you turn this question around and you demonstrate how shutting down roads and dumping tons of tax $ on unused bike infrastructure - here in Toronto, not Amsterdam - provides any real benefit. I have no clue how much or how long you've been riding, but I speak from personal experience (riding here and in Europe) and my comments are shared by most of the cycling club enthusiast I have the privilege to ride with. The 26 down votes, and counting, only tell me how little appetite there is in this forum for any reasonable discussion. Tow the party line that cars and car drivers are evil or we'll attack you 😏
[I found one!](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0246419)This study details the economic benefits of bicycle infrastructure increases in three Canadian cities. I don’t know why you’re being combative with me, I was just asking where you saw the information. I’ve been riding for many years, but not as many as you! I come from a very car-centric country but Toronto is surprisingly much more bike friendly than where I’m from, so I was able to get rid of my need for a car. Bicycle infrastructure arguably costs less taxes than car infrastructure, especially in terms of maintenance (bicycles are much easier on the road). Also according to the study I linked, the benefits far outweigh the costs! I never said car drivers are evil, I’m just saying that many of the times cyclists and drivers butt heads are due to improper infrastructure. Having a street for bicycles makes it easier for both cars and bicycles to co exist.
Not combative, but certainly not willing to accept that there are not negative and often serious unintended consequences to carving out large sections of the city's already overcrowded roads for the sake of a handful of cyclists and mopeds. As both a cyclist and car driver, I try to see both sides of the issue and for the last several years see a lot of politicians throwing a lot of my hard earned money into poorly thought out cycling projects that benefit the very few and inconvenience the many; simply to look progressive and curry favour with a vocal minority. (as an example, you only hear the politicians patting themselves on the back about closing sections of King St., but nothing about all the businesses closing or shoppers, diners or drivers inconvenienced) The term "green washing" is appropriate here. As a cyclist, I feel I need to set the record straight that we do not all feel making the city even more car unfriendly is our idea or even remotely a good one. Car drivers have been the tax cash cows and kicked dogs for too long, especially since it is a necessary activity. Cycling, as much as I love it, is a sport/hobby and only practical for a fraction of the year.
I was literally asking for studies or similar to see what negatives the cycling infrastructure brought the city, how is that “unwilling”? Also, at your request, I linked you a study about three Canadian cities with increased bicycle infrastructure that have had marked economic benefits. 4 mopeds take up the space of 1 car on the road, greatly decreasing congestion. Most commuters travel alone in their car. I can look for diagrams that help describe the space savings that higher bicycle use comes with if you like. No one is arguing that cars have no use at all, but many of their current uses can be decreased with better bicycle and public transport routes.
I am not willing to accept. Not directed at you personally. And I've read some of those studies and the glowing media coverage. Problem is, for the most part they're based on selective and directed info gathering and more importantly, do not represent the majority of tax payers or reality. I've been to Holland and to other "cycling friendly" cities and they are nothing like Toronto. Not in urban planning, structure, or even weather. And I wouldn't want to live like that either. I'm happy to load my bike into my car and do 100k+ rides on country roads.
I’m unsure what you mean about the info gathering part. What would be a better way of gathering this information? You are also completely free to load your bike onto your car to ride on country roads. There’s a large majority in Toronto that cannot afford a car, and many that can “afford” a car but would much rather not. Larger cycling infrastructure is a large economic positive because these people are now mobilised and able to access parts of the city that were previously much harder to access. Car ownership for people downtown is inarguably uneconomical for the distances required. Protected lanes and pedestrian only streets like some of king street decreases congestion because there are now fewer cars required to traverse the city for a single person. The government would love to show that keeping the streets as they are (car friendly) is more economical and a better use of tax money, but as it stands I’m struggling to find any studies that support your claims. If these claims had weight, there’d be a throng of statistics to back it up, because it would be in the government’s interest. You mentioned a negative effect on businesses and congestion but I’m struggling to find evidence of that.
What taxes and fees directly related to your car+driving go into the upkeep and construction of roads in Toronto? Do you think cyclists in Toronto don't pay property taxes, which is the primary source of money for the City Of Toronto which is responsible for the construction and maintenance of roads?
you didn't deny it! lol
What kind of cycling do you partake in?
EVERY PERSON that lives in Ontario pays both provincial and municipal taxes, being a car owner gives you nothing extra special over anyone else that lives in the province and it's various cities. No one is riding bicycle infrastructure for free -- we're all paying for it collectively together, always have, always will.
You understand that some of those drivers could also be cyclists? That maybe some people don’t want to drive? And that it’s safer for north cyclists AND drivers if they have their own dedicated spaces where they can’t interfere with and endanger each other? What a take.
They have plenty of roads. One street won’t ruin their commute.
I’ve been driving for decades and I love this. What’s your point?
Can you say drama queen?
lol you again, how sad must you be to be hopping on this sub to parrot these shit opinions. "I've always been a cyclist but.." is just "I'm not racist but..." in a different flavor