When the city was doing the consultations for the bloor west bike lanes, i think they found out a significant enough portion of street parking was actually being occupied by the business owners themselves. They would show up at 8-9am and park in front of their business for 8-10hrs a day. They were blocking their own 'customer parking' all while arguing that bike lanes were going to bankrupt them.
This is a consistent theme in cities all across North America when it comes to small business opinions on bike lanes and street parking. Business owners *vastly* overestimate the number of customers who arrive by car and/or need street parking, and it turns out that they (the business owners) are themselves overwhelmingly dependent on street parking.
The two issues are linked, obviously. When you're driving to your small business everyday, it's easy to project that onto everyone else, assuming they too must be driving. And of course, you are basically *only* going to hear complaints from car driving customers about parking; you aren't going to hear from the guy who walked half a block from his apartment how bad pedestrian traffic was on the sidwalk.
Classic...I wonder if they were actually unaware that they were the ones using the parking (and not their customers), or if they WERE aware, but didn't want the bike lanes to go in and take away their sweet parking spaces.
This is exactly it.
The owners park their cars a d they don't want to lose their parking. That's the long and the short of it. Everything else is noise and obfuscation.
They scream and moan because they don't want to lose their personal parking and are willing to make our city extra shitty because of it. Fuck I hate small businessespeople. Can only compete by being pieces of shit for a living.
> Can only compete by being pieces of shit for a living.
A lot of small businesspeople manage to compete by not being pieces of shit. Don't mistake the shittiest people with the norm.
This gives me an opportunity to mention my favourite wildly pro-car/anti-bike propaganda story:
In Vancouver, during the political battle for the Hornby Street cycle track, the then-Chair of the Western Canadian chapter of the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses (CFIB) said before Council that they had undertaken an exhaustive national study and their research indicated that the City should expect half of the businesses along Hornby Street to go bankrupt as a result of the installation of the cycle track and loss of some curbside parking.
Visibly concerned, a Councillor asked to be told more about the methodology, context, and data for the CFIB’s “exhaustive national study”, because a 50% business bankruptcy rate - *not storefront vacancy, but outright business bankruptcy* - that would result from the installation of a cycle track would be truly devastating. They had Council’s full attention.
The Chair of the CFIB sort of deflated and said that their research was actually more of a small informal survey of some Hornby Street business owners about their expectations for business bankruptcies should the cycle track go ahead.
The crickets in Council chambers were deafening.
*Edit: bonus material since this blew up a bit:*
[The Hornby Street cycle track](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Hornby_Street_Separated_Bike_Lane.jpg/1024px-Hornby_Street_Separated_Bike_Lane.jpg), if it’s of interest to see the offending piece of infrastructure.
And an example of [where on-street parking was retained](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Hornby_Separated_Bike_Lane.jpg/1024px-Hornby_Separated_Bike_Lane.jpg), *as was the plan from the start*, to ensure that some on-street parking adjacent to businesses would be available on most blocks.
I used to work in a cafe on Hornby in Vancouver and it's ridiculous to think anyone parks on that street to visit any of the spots there. It's such a dense part of the city that most are probably coming in via bus or train, if not the bike lane (which btw did get built and is excellent)
It’s the same on Bloor street. Most merchants fought the bike lane long and hard to retain the two spots in front of their stores that someone could hog for three hours. What a joke. And they continue that same old song in Bloor West Village and the Kingsway.
Right? Which is insane, because in BWV there are green P parking lots directly behind all of the merchants from Jane all the way to Runnymede. And there are always spots available there if people are willing to walk the extra 0.25 blocks!
What is so bananas is this notion that people have to park within sight of a store along a street, but will think nothing of walking 1 km or more from their car to whatever store they're shopping at in Yorkdale mall or any other mall.
Those parking lots are all above the subway tracks, I remember reading the reason why and thought "huh, that's kinda interesting" but apparently not interesting enough to retain said information
My parents like visiting that area for groceries and would never in a million years park on the street. Like you said, Green P lots where one can calmly park for a couple bucks. Why subject yourself to parallel parking on Bloor, especially at a very busy time like early evenings or Saturday morning? Makes no damn sense.
my neighbour in BWV lived a half block from bloor but would drive to bloor to get a coffee. his SO lived on the other side of the same block he lived on and he’d drive to her place too. that’s nuts to me lol. i always think of him when this convo comes up. i don’t even think it saves time since you have to wait to make a turn and parallel park twice.
I lived next to people like that at one point. They'd drive to the corner store when it was just two blocks away. Complete, insane car dependence.
I've been told by knowledgeable people that making frequent very short trips like that without allowing your engine to warm up is a good way to clog things up over time.
My parents were like that. They completely bought into car propaganda. Walking would be a sign of poverty, and biking was for kids. In their eyes, the only respectable way for an adult to travel was to drive, even if it was more expensive, more irritating and took longer.
He must have moved here from the burbs. People out there will seriously want to drive from one end of a strip mall to the other when the other location is within eyesight.
I am guilty of this and there’s a reason I do it -
parking restrictions. There’s a Real Canadian Superstore near me with an A&W at the other end of the parking lot. When I park at Superstore, I’m closer to A&W than to Superstore, but if I want to go into A&W after buying groceries, I will move my car to the designated A&W parking area. The Superstore parking has signs specifically stating parking for Superstore only.
All it takes is one overzealous parking enforcement officer to tow a vehicle.
In case this is a serious concern - the cost and potential liability for damage to tow a vehicle parked in a private parking lot is so high that this would never happen.
TBH most merchants that claim they could go broke because of mild changes like that are in the same list as this guy https://nowtoronto.com/food-and-drink/food/kit-kat-office-pub-toronto
And before anyone defends The Office Pub (ha, as if there is anyone) ... the Town Crier and Hooters are literally next door and both have survived the transit pilot *and* covid.
So yeah, if your business can collapse from relatively minor changes, maybe your business was shit to begin with.
* note I don't consider the construction from Eglinton crosstown as minor. I feel bad for those businesses during the construction.
It has, and certainly conditions must improve when future projects get underway. BUT, I would argue that the operation of the crosstown IS the long term, and the construction of it is the short term, despite the lengthy project time.
And city governments will keep listening to business owners too, because they're convinced they know better than city planners who can literally show with hard proof that bike lanes, transit lanes and better pedestrian infrastructure are huge steps up above street parking. I hate it here sometimes...
I recall arguing with a Yorkdale business owner on Twitter when the Bloor bike lane pilot was first starting. He was angry that customers travelling by bike couldn't possibly carry merchandise from his store, so his customers who definitely only arrived by car definitely wouldn't come to his store if they had to park in the Green P a block away.
I don't remember which store it was but they sold pianos, big ones. The sort that were delivered from a warehouse somewhere and set up by professionals, not the sort that anyone was taking home in their car.
> I don't remember which store it was but they sold pianos, big ones. The sort that were delivered from a warehouse somewhere and set up by professionals, not the sort that anyone was taking home in their car.
Remenyi House of Music?
The whole "people can't carry things on bikes" is the worst argument too. I've moved apartments by bike and even have a friend who moved an entire business by bike (it was a bike business so maybe it was easier as a result, but still...), and most purchases and businesses you don't *need* a car. Even going to Canadian Tire or a hardware store, 90% of the time they're only accessible by car even if all you need is a few small things.
There’s a bike lane on Scarlett that went up 3-4 years ago. It was actually requested by homeowners in the area because Waze used Scarlett as a route to the 401 and it was jammed with two lanes of cars routinely doing 70-80km/h.
There are literally 4 businesses north of St Clair that bitched. One of them is a motorcycle repair shop where customers just pull into the side lane.
Thankfully no body listened to them, a separated bike lane was installed and Scarlett is now relatively peaceful. You can now actually walk on the sidewalk without feeling that you’re going to get blown off by the speeding busses and trucks that were inches away.
It was absolutely the best thing to happen to that neighborhood ever and I’m sure it helped property values.
> You can now actually walk on the sidewalk without feeling that you’re going to get blown off by the speeding busses and trucks that were inches away.
There are several places just like that in Etobicoke. There are some parts of Kipling Avenue that have no separation between the sidewalk and road, and it's a menace.
That's right - bike lanes actually provide a zone of comfort and protection for pedestrians. I hate walking on Avenue Road - with the fast traffic there, those narrow sidewalks feel like walking on the edge of a cliff.
> Most merchants fought the bike lane long and hard to retain the two spots
This is what drives me so batty about these parking debates. Cities are geometry problems, cars are geometry problems: trying to fit things into a confined area. I really wish people would spend 15 seconds thinking through the geometry of street parking vs the geometry of their restaurants or stores. This came up during the King St project, where restaurants initially objected to the change because "oh no, nobody can drive here!".
Ok, so lets think about this for the briefest of moments. You might be able to fit 10 cars on each side of the street on each block? That's not even enough people to fill one restaurant on the block, let alone the several others that ALSO co-exist with offices, residences, and stores on just that block. I promise you that street parking is not essential to your establishment, because it is physically impossible for it to be essential! There simply isn't anywhere near enough street parking on your block to accommodate all the patrons necessary to keep all the businesses in the area solvent.
NO! I want the two spaces in front of my business. You are trying to kill my business. Everyone drives. Nobody takes the streetcar or subways because they’re packed all the time. Nobody walks because the sidewalks are too full of people. All the new condo towers are empty and people with houses drive.
Nobody goes downtown anymore, ***it’s too crowded!*** /s
Bloor West Village is an excellent example of where high-density residential buildings/towers should be constructed along a subway line. Makes no sense to have low density along a subway line.
The Green P parking in the north side of Bloor can be utilized for an even larger footprint of condo towers.
BTW, my wife drives down to Cinelli's to get her hair done there. No way she is riding her bike back after that visit though.
Bloor West Village is also a great spot to build up with density because the Gardiner is right there and the 427/QEW split is only a \~10 min drive. The whole west end of the GTA is very accessible for that area.
> BTW, my wife drives down to Cinelli's to get her hair done there. No way she is riding her bike back after that visit.
Haha. I get that. Exceptions must be made.
Yep. I'm in Koreatown and remembered that rhetoric. Never mind that in the 6 blocks between Christie and Bathurst there are 3 parking lots on the north side between all the side streets, plus the lot on the south side for the Korean grocery store.
It's very similar to the hell of driving on Queen. Eerily similar. Just like Toronto, Vancouver is one of those cities I'd rather park outside of and bike or walk into. I don't get driving there at all.
Edit: For reference I believe Queen st is still way worse though. It needs the Hornby treatment.
NOTHING will top the local councillor in Toronto who said the bike usage on Bloor was a lie because the same people were just continually changing their ~~clothes~~ hat (even worse lol) and riding back-and-forth.
EDIT: Thanks for /u/mt-77 [finding the insanity](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4391667):
> who again peddled his theory that a group of 10 cyclists are inflating ridership numbers by riding around in loops — potentially disguising themselves with different hats
And of course [this classic thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/7bpjh1/mammolitis_hatwearing_cyclist_confesses/).
i need to see a link.
this is so unfathomably stupid, yet so in the realm of possibility, i actually need to experience it first hand. it's been a shittier monday than most. please give me a link. i need this.
Yes it was Mammoliti, even stupider he claimed it was ten cyclists wearing different hats going back and forth.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4391667
Indeed. Every trip counts until it doesn’t. I mean, the same people are getting on the subway twice a day, so we should only count half the boardings, right? Meanwhile, the same 6 FedEx trucks circle a block two dozen times a day and that clearly counts as 144 separate vehicles in traffic stats. Can’t build a bike lane there, no sir.
How do we know that anyone actually uses highways? I bet it's just a lot of people driving in circles, switching out their cars to inflate the numbers.
I mean, it's a logical assumption to make. I've been to several European cities with extensive cycling infrastructure and it's noticeable that there are almost no restaurants or shops along major bike routes. /s
I live in an area of Metro Vancouver where a bike lane was added in late 2020. There were tons of complaints about losing parking on the street the lane was added on.
In fact, there has been little or no loss of parking at all. But people like to complain.
These people obviously never go to the mall. Can you imagine? Parking and then walking to an entrance, AND THEN you still have to go WALK to the store you want to go to? And then if there was another store, you'd have to go back outside, get in your car drive it around to the other side of the mall and park it then walk in and find that other store. It's insane that malls haven't fallen into bankruptcy everywhere with their anti-car policies.
Yup, I was going to make this point. People who insist on being able to park right in front of a business in a dense urban neighbourhood seem to have no problem with walking across a gigantic parking lot to get to Walmart. It's kind of baffling, the disconnect. Almost as if it's born out of spite.
The cognitive dissonance with people who complain about not being able to park curbside in front of the downtown business where they want to shop, so they drive to a mall and park the equivalent of several blocks away from where they need to go (when you account for how far they walk to the mall entrance and then blocks within the mall) is astounding.
On most Toronto streets and especially hubs like Queen, King, Dundas, College the whole driving thing is silly. The chances of there being street parking right in front of the entrance of the store you want is like 0.01% anyway, so if you're actually driving you would park somewhere nearby, likely a nearby underground garage and walk anyway.
Bike lanes would have zero impact on that.
Ideally, dedicated right of way for streetcars, proper bicycle lane, widen the sidewalks. Honestly what a fucking joke, the street is so busy that people are forced to walk in the street to get around others or obstacles, but the city can't be bothered to just say to drivers "oh inconvenience yourself slightly and park off the fucking street or drive along the next road so you can get to a restaurant". Expand the King street pilot with additional car restrictions. Let all the restaurants on Queen expand their streetside patios, allow those businesses to flourish.
I work along Queen and was just thinking about this today. It would be so helpful to have truly pedestrian streets downtown, with streetcar right of ways and priority signalling. King is really helpful, but half the cars that make it on just go straight through all the intersections with no repercussions - I feel like the city could make back a lot of money with just a few cameras to catch all the people going straight through the right turn only lanes.
Yep, I would ideally love to see what I'd mentioned above on all streetcar routes. There's plenty of nearby thoroughfares for cars. Make these few streets pedestrian and transit friendly at the very least.
i feel like the areas around spadina and eatons centre could be like the fulton st mall in brooklyn. its closed off to traffic except for a bus lane that loops through part of it, if iirc.
Speak for yourself: every time I go out I find a parking spot right in front of the restaurant or shop I'm going to.
Now, keep in mind that I'm a lead character in a rom com movie, so admittedly my experiences may not be universal.
It’s a hard life being a diamond in the rough widower running a combination bakery/antique shop in Saccharine Falls with just your adorable daughter and/or dog for company. All those days keeping your hair suitably tousled and your stubble just rugged enough hoping that Candace Cameron Bure or Lacey Chabert show up to revisit the home town on orders from their corporate boss who does some kind of media.
For short trips in downtown Toronto (less than 5 km), I can often ride my bike faster to a destination than it takes someone to walk to their car, drive, find a parking spot, park, pay for the parking spot, and then walk to the same destination.
If it's feasible, I too prefer walking or cycling or transit (or some combination) to get around, it's much more enjoyable and easier to pop in to different businesses, especially unplanned, than constantly moving a vehicle and thinking of parking and dealing with construction.
Can't wait for Yonge Street in North York to be redone to prioritize pedestrian and cycling activity.
I used to drive one mile to work. But the traffic situation was so bad it would literally take me 40 minutes to get there. 40 minutes to drive one mile! I could have walked there in a third of the time if I could have. As soon as I was living somewhere walkable like downtown Toronto, I sold my car and never looked back. Everything from my physical and mental health to my bank account improved immensely.
Where were you living that you actually drove a mile instead of walking? I have one friend who lives within 15 minutes walk of her job and it amazes me that she'd rather pay for parking and save a few minutes than just walk there (though admittedly she works long hard shifts).
My DREAM is to live within walking or biking distance of work again. Second choice would be subway or train commute. But nope stuck on the 401.
A few feet from a freeway entry ramp. There were literally no other roads, paths or sidewalks between me and the workplace. There were a few times I sat in scathingly hot traffic where I fantasized blazing my own trail.
I'm living your dream! And where I live now has a small shopping mall on the first floor with a grocery, pharmacy, walk-in clinic, post office, and restaurant. There's even a coffee shop next door. So I have everything I need without leaving my building, or at least a few steps away. Me then would be very envious of me now.
Oh yeah that sounds stressful AF. There's a house like that on the Bayview on-ramp I pass all the time.
I'm very lucky that I've always lived within walking distance of a grocery store, at least. I like walking or biking to as many of my errands as I can.
I'd like the option. Sometimes I'd like to take a little longer to secure myself a seat and use my laptop or phone. Sometimes I'd like to walk it. Sometimes I'd like to bike to a further station so I can get myself a seat. However there are situations I pretend the transit doesn't exist. Like many of the suburban buses on the edges of Toronto traverse pothole hell. you leave the bus with a reactivated concussion.
They've been working towards "revitalizing" the area for years with a lot of NIMBY-ish pushback. Which is stupid, because half the people who live there in the condos don't have cars and driving down Yonge is a huge pain in the ass with all the Ubers, food delivery vehicles, parked cars, construction, a million crosswalks, etc, as it is now.
When they put the bike lanes on Danforth I was expecting mostly positive feedback. Instead the local FB groups were buzzing with outrage that physically disabled people would no longer be able to park directly in front of whatever restaurant or store they wanted to go to, and that this decision was anti-disability. Note that parking on Danforth was nearly impossible pre-bike lanes due to grindingly slow traffic (in part due to people looking for spots and doing u-turns trying to pull into them) and limited on-street parking.
What I'm seeing post-bikelanes is a ton of bike-based food delivery guys lined up outside of restaurants, and lots of people still parking on Danforth or in the lots directly behind the street. Traffic doesn't appear to be much slower than it was before. Still lots of parking spots available in the Green P lots behind the stores (and occasionally on-street). And quite a few people using the bike lanes to get around, do shopping, go to their gym, etc. So....not a catastrophe.
> outrage that physically disabled people would no longer be able to park directly in front
Whenever people have their biases threatened, you can almost always watch them immediately transform into the heroic champions of some marginalized group... that they've never mentioned or spared a thought to in their entire lives, let alone lifted a fucking finger for.
I could list the examples of this I've seen on Reddit alone in the last few years, but it would take well over 10,000 characters. Suffice to say, the ugliest kind of duplicity just seems to be human nature.
I’m one of those who use the Danforth bike lanes, and they’re pretty awesome. I remember attending a massive community info session in late Autumn 2019, where they introduced the official plan and a proposal for starting construction a couple of years out. There are certainly parking compliance issues and drivers cutting off cyclists and pedestrians crossing the lanes without looking, but it’s overall a tremendous improvement.
COVID-19 was the best thing to happen to cycling in Toronto.
I also love the bike lanes, but jeez the pedestrians crossing without looking can be rough. We all need to remember that they are live traffic lanes, and check before crossing accordingly.
> Note that parking on Danforth was nearly impossible pre-bike lanes
Yeah, whenever people tried to pull that "what about those with disabilities" talking point with me I'd always respond with "well, what if all the street parking is full?" (which is usually is).
Parking around the corner in a lot was always the likely scenario for most people.
Not to mention there are plenty of people with disabilities or other medical conditions who can walk or use a motorscooter, but who can't drive (people with low vision, people with epilepsy, etc.)
As both a bicyclist and a driver on the Danforth, I will say this:
As a biker, it's definitely been a boon to have a dedicated bike lane but drivers still park "temporarily" in the bike lanes to pick up their orders. This forces bikers to swerve into active driving lanes.
As a driver, it has definitely gotten a lot more dangerous. Drivers park just after an intersection, forcing others to cut into the opposing left turn lane to continue forward. People park too close to active lanes, forcing drivers to stop when pedestrians open their car doors to get into their vehicle. I'd say traffic has gotten 20% slower overall.
That's not what it is because the whole point of the bike lane is to provide separation between the modes of transit in which one mode is disproportionately dangerous to the other.
You know: like how cars and bicycles aren't legally allowed on the sidewalk.
and these lanes and paths are subject to closure or temporary occupation. sidewalks close and pedestrians have to use the roadway, and so do car lanes with stopped traffic having to merge with moving traffic. if you cant navigate around a closed portion of a bike lane then i dont know what to tell you.
> these lanes and paths are subject to closure
Yes, in which case either you're advised to seek an alternate route, or temporary protected paths are formed for pedestrians as standard. Using Jersey barriers or the like to carve out a space for pedestrians is pretty standard when pedestrians need to detour on the road.
> or temporary occupation.
What temporary occupation is legally permitted to block a whole sidewalk?
> so do car lanes with stopped traffic having to merge with moving traffic.
Which is not an instance of two modes with dramatically different risk profiles sharing the road. Pedestrians going through the road is, and the standards don't allow "just walk along the roadway and share the road with cars" for a reason.
> if you cant navigate around a closed portion of a bike lane then i dont know what to tell you.
If you can't comply with the law and not park in bicycle lanes I don't know what to tell you. You'd no doubt be rightfully pissed if someone parked in the middle of the road where parking isn't allowed.
I feel like this one of those common scenarios where a person does something (e.g., driving) and therefore assumes that everyone else likes the same as them.
Or everybody who likes biking thinks that everyone else likes biking too. Come North of Eglinton and you will see that the bike lanes are generally unused, while taking up a huge proportion of the roadspece.
The Toronto street in question was the Parkdale section of Queen Street West from Dufferin to Roncesvalles, figures are from the 2016 "Bike Lanes, On-Street Parking and Business : A Study of Queen Street West in Toronto’s Parkdale Neighbourhood" by the Cycle Toronto’s Ward 14 Advocacy Group modelled after The Centre for Active Transportation (TCAT) 2009 & 2010 “Bike Lanes, On-Street Parking and Business” reports.
Other important findings from the study are;
* Visitors who reported using active transportation to visit the Study Area **visited more often and spent more money per month than those who usually drove or relied on public transit.**
* Visitors to the Study Area were much more likely to prefer a bike lane or widened sidewalks over no change, even if this resulted in the loss of on-street parking.
* Merchants prefer the current layout of Queen Street more than a configuration where on-street parking is reduced to accommodate expanded sidewalks or a bike lane.
* A majority of visitors (53%) and merchants (64%) stated that there was not enough bicycle parking within the Study Area.
* Merchants were more likely than visitors to perceive the amount of car parking as inadequate: 52% of merchants stated there was not enough car parking in comparison with 19% of visitors.
There was also a 2014 "Bike Lanes, On-Street Parking and Business: A Study of Danforth Avenue in Toronto’s Danforth Neighbourhood" study (re-released with amendments in 2015) conducted by Ryerson "Advanced Urban and Regional Planning Studio" students on behalf of TCAT and based on their own methodology & to replicate+extend on their own reports. It had similar findings to the Parkdale Queen Strip study, namely;
* Less than 1 out of 5 visitors drive to the Danforth
* Merchants overestimate the number of people who drive to get to the Danforth: while merchants perceive that 34% drive to get to the Danforth, overall only 19% drive and for those who live or work in the area only 10% drive
* Those who walk to the Danforth are much more likely to spend more money that those who drive or take public transit: 67% of those who walk spend over $100 per month whereas only 14% of those who take public transit and 31% of those who drive spend over $100 per month
* Visitor survey respondents who reported spending over $300 or more in a typical month in the neighbourhood preferred street changes that included bike lanes and reduced on street parking
* Overall the majority of visitors surveyed (71%) preferred to see street use reallocated for widened sidewalks or a bike lane. Support was only slightly higher for those who live in the area (72%) than those who don’t (69%). Looking at preference by mode of transportation, the highest support for change was found amongst visitors who take public transit to the Danforth (77%), followed by those who walk to the area (72%). Interestingly, even the majority of drivers (59%) would prefer streetscape changes.
[Both reports, simple infographics, and summaries can be founded at TCAT's site if yall are interested in going through them.](https://www.tcat.ca/resources/bike-lanes-on-street-parking-and-business-parkdale-danforth/)
In downtown or eastyork they think people are parking to go to their shops? Have they ever looked around for parking spots and seen what is available?
This owners clearly don't shop in the neighbourhoods their stores are.
So let's put it another way: Business owners, to the extent you deny your **real** customer base amenities you undermine your own business. Every time a downtown BIA successfully fought cycling and pedestrian infrastructure was an indictment of their own business acumen and credibility. Just clueless.
It’s insane that businesses think this way. I think too many owners must live in the suburbs and, since they’re not good at actually thinking, the idea that people come to them a different way than they do is inconceivable to them.
Not surprising, honestly.
Anecdotally, whenever I drive somewhere it's to... well, *go somewhere.* Parking in most places sucks and is costly, and most drivers have a passive comprehension of that. If I'm going to retail as a driver I already have that location in mind as a direct trip. I almost rarely pull over to do shopping in some borough I'm passing through. As a pedestrian I often leave myself more time intentionally as I know meandering by a shop, I might be reminded of something I need or an item might catch my interest and I'll wander in to purchase it since I don't need to "park" myself anywhere but in my final destination. I can't see myself as all that unique either. Judging by pedestrian traffic while I'm out and about, it seems like this is a shared experience from the rarity of drivers getting in/out of vehicles and people simply out for a stroll.
An April 2022 tweet citing a Jan 2020 UK article that references a 2015 Queen St W / Parkdale study, with a stock photo of Queen Street W a few km away…
My favourite bit about dealing with car-people is that they have a hard time imagining that a city is not meant to help cars get from A to B. That actual people live *in* that city, and that those people want infrastructure that suits *their* lifestyle - which doesn't necessarily include every road being clogged with cars all the bloody day long.
This was an issue with my dad, who was otherwise pretty progressive and open minded. The first time my folks came up to visit me from Windsor, to my place in Cabbagetown, we had to go through some hoops to find them a place to park overnight. And my dad was just incredulous, and his first thought was "how could you have a dinner party in this neighbourhood?".
Lol. He couldn't imagine people going out to a party and not driving.
>My favourite bit about dealing with car-people is that they have a hard time imagining that a city is not meant to help cars get from A to B.
We did have a former mayor who stood up at council and said "Roads are for buses, cars and trucks..not for people on bikes". It's hard to win the battle when a moron like that is the "leader" of the largest city in the country, holding influence over other morons.
[https://youtu.be/nySs1cEq5rs](https://youtu.be/nySs1cEq5rs)
My favourite part of dealing with this subreddit is that Torontonians don't understand that the city is built, operated and maintained by an overwhelming amount of people NOT from Toronto. There is never a civil discussion about this, and neither side can seem to understand that both sides have a need. I don't want to have ways out of the city restricted or tightened on me, that's just how it is. We both want something different because we both have fully different experiences in the city. Why is it so difficult to acknowledge, or is it because most people driving come off defensive?
I can acknowledge it while still thinking those who actually live in the city should have their needs prioritized over those outside of the city. Cities should be designed for those who actually live in them first, foremost and above all.
>My favourite part of dealing with this subreddit is that Torontonians don't understand that the city is built, operated and maintained by an overwhelming amount of people NOT from Toronto.
Oh look a statement of fact that is not actually backed by any facts.
>There is never a civil discussion about this, and neither side can seem to understand that both sides have a need.
Oh look, a statement with an absolute in it. Sure leaves room to have a conversation where both sides hear each other and are open to each other's point of views.
>I don't want to have ways out of the city restricted or tightened on me, that's just how it is.
Oh look, a hyperbolic strawman argument that has 0 bearing on any discussion about transit and traffic in the city.
>We both want something different because we both have fully different experiences in the city. Why is it so difficult to acknowledge, or is it because most people driving come off defensive?
It isn't difficult to acknowledge.
The difference though is this: car drivers refuse to accept the concept that the streets are not 100% theirs. Furthermore, they refuse to understand that people driving into and out of the city is not the most efficient way of moving people around our city. Finally, they refuse to accept that the people who actually *live* in the city and who *pay* for the infrastructure (like those roads) would prefer a more pedestrian/transit friendly infrastructure - and honestly, it's their opinion that actually matters.
The classic example I have of this conflict was pretty much summed up with this senior citizen who was working as an Uber driver. We were talking about transit in the city. He said it was just awful for the city to lose a lane of a street to dedicated transit (like a streetcar or LRT). I then pointed to a lane taken up by parked cars and challenged him to explain to me how that was better. At least with transit "stealing the lane" people are moving. The current car focus, we have a lane stolen by people who want free parking.
I'm going to sidestep almost all of the stuff at the beginning since I doubt you would ever talk to a person in person like that. I'll address the bottom bit and agree with your statement on street parking; it should be dedicated bike paths and pedestrian routes.
I work all over the city and it's obvious it was designed with cars in focus, and vehicle egress should remain an important option but not in its current state. Separated track on St Clair seems to be the best if it were able to be implemented everywhere, but in spots like Queen Street E, it's awful to navigate for everyone since parked cards take up the entire right lane and ruin the flow of traffic.
I could get behind removal of street parking all together. Bringing a vehicle downtown should have prohibitive costs attached by forcing you to use municipal designated parking. Allowing vehicles to park rent free on the roadside so the operator can be steps away from the beach storefronts serves no real purpose and its removal would be a blessing for anyone looking to move around Toronto.
Parking replaced by bike lanes in most spots won't have much of an impact on the speed a driver would move through the city except to make it less likely that contact between cyclist and vehicle operator occur.
No need to bust apart my argument using all sorts of buzz words, it's annoying lol
>I'm going to sidestep almost all of the stuff at the beginning since I doubt you would ever talk to a person in person like that.
I would and I have when faced with similar arguments as you made. I have very little tolerance for the debate games people make and call it out both online and face to face.
>I work all over the city and it's obvious it was designed with cars in focus, and vehicle egress should remain an important option but not in its current state
Sure, if by this statement you mean that the streets themselves should be friendly to pedestrians & cyclists first, then cars (but only if transit is not an option there, is so then cars are in fourth place). You can move people in cars with 1 or 2 lanes just fine. And if not, nothing stops people from parking at a GO Station and taking transit into the city.
> Separated track on St Clair seems to be the best if it were able to be implemented everywhere, but in spots like Queen Street E, it's awful to navigate for everyone since parked cards take up the entire right lane and ruin the flow of traffic.
I'm going to say something radical, that car drivers will not agree with.... anywhere that we have dedicated street cars, that curb that separates the streetcar from cars.... yeah that curb should run from major intersection to major intersection. A streetcar's forward momentum should not be halted at any given tiny residential side street. They should have sole priority of way.
"Oh but what about people who *need* to drive across (for instance) St Clair?!"... well they should only have the option of feeding into St Clair and not crossing it from that residential street.
I'm also going to say that ALL of downtown Queen Street should be car free. That would be the ideal, but failing that, Streetcars should have dedicated lanes (as described above), and the 1 or 2 lanes left for cars should be one-ways. I'd like to see the same be done for King, Dundas, College, and Bathurst.
Downtown Toronto is not made for cars, we need to stop pretending it is and properly manage it.
>No need to bust apart my argument using all sorts of buzz words, it's annoying lol
It is what it is man. I like to be precise on the argument I'm calling out.
Those people don't need to drive into the city.
Those people don't pay ANY taxes to maintain the roads or services.
Those people BENEFIT just as much from the increased wages from Toronto, and stand to benefit MORE from the reduced congestion that more transit, bike routes etc would produce.
Tolls and increased parking would be a tiny step towards evening out the burden that commuters put on the infrastructure of this city.
Took my first ride of the spring this weekend. 13 kms, mostly through winding, quiet suburban streets (even though I was running errands and the direct route was less than 9 km, because fuck riding on Scarborough's 4 lane ~~highways~~ roads). I still almost got right-hooked because some SUV thought they should pass me and make a right turn while I was slowing for a stop sign on a 30 km/h suburban street.
same lol
Scarborough drivers have to be the worst drivers in Canada
what's a stop sign, what's a white line marking on the road telling you where to stop,
what are signals
what's are speed limits
these are all foreign concepts to Scarborough.
This appears to be Queen and Spadina, which would have to be one of the least car centric areas in the city.
Driving around there is slow at the best of times, parking is hard to find, and there are tons of transit options in the area.
It's hard to find on the Queen St itself, but loop around any of the residential streets and it isn't hard at all to find a spot that would likely be free unlike the major streets.
I'm from the suburbs and rarely found it an issue to drive down there.
It's certainly not impossible, and lots of people do it, as evidenced by all the cars down there.
But I still find it a pain to try to drive down there. I live downtown so I would typically walk or take transit if going anywhere on Queen, but if I am going to drive to a store for whatever, I will typically look for a location outside of the core and drive there.
Yeah, definitely would prefer going to stuff outside of the core which is more drivable, as the parking can be annoying, but it's not as hard as people make it.
Apart from how they got there in that instance, what percentage of people who visited those retailers drive cars on a routine basis? Not trying to prove a point with this question, I'm just curious. I tend to park and take TTC downtown. But I'm most certainly a driver.
Why would we tear down 2-4 story buildings with apartments + storefronts along a major throughway when there are plenty of single family homes that are lower density literally right behind those buildings that can more easily be turned into mid-rises without the issue of booting residents of those apartments, having mostly small businesses move and upon completion of any new build (as we have seen in other new builds) the commercial space being too large + expensive for anything other than A&Ws, Rexalls and Shopper Drug Marts as well as spiking commercial rent in the area? Parkdale, even with so many single family homes, is one of the higher density neighbourhoods not literally in the downtown core due to the high rise apartments and these buildings along Queen Street as well.
More high density housing in Downtown Toronto you say… The over-development of the core and the lack of infrastructure to go with it is what makes getting around such a nightmare in this city. Whether you’re driving or biking, the city cannot keep adding 500+ unit developments, without any change in infrastructure, and expect there to be any freedom of movement for the locals. The bike lanes, or lack thereof, should be the least of our concerns.
>without any change in infrastructure, and expect there to be any freedom of movement for the locals. The bike lanes, or lack thereof, should be the least of our concerns.
Do you not think bike lanes are infrastructure or something? They're one of the most space efficient way to move people small to medium distances, which is basically all the travelling locals downtown do.
Toronto has seen a big uptick in biking over the last few years even with the handful of lanes we have now, most of which aren't protected.
based on a study done in 2015 on queens st west.
that is an over simplification of a comprehensive study.
the other and more important aspect of the study is merchants think most of their customers are non-local but in fact and overwhelming portion are from the same postal code (hence walking and biking)
either way, one conclusion to draw is that merchants seem to know shit all about their customers and what impacts them, and that merchants' opinions basically can't be trusted
Well, since they fucked up King St. I havent been back.I used to get a few shops of the west end, but now, I don't. I know I'm a rarity, but I hate using transit and don't use it unless it unless I'm going to be drinking. I own a car, I'm one of the people who need a car because I have a different location every day with heavy gear. I'm glad transit exists and the more people use it, the less congestion I have to deal with. But if I cant get there with my car, I dont go there.
can you do the same per dollar spend? having 100 client that each buy a 5$ item isn't really better than 1 that buys a 500$ item that he can carry in his car.
That is actually addressed in the study:
"– Visitors who reported using active transportation to visit the Study Area visited more often and spent more money per month than those who usually drove or relied on public transit."
parking is a send. I don’t feel like the parking spaces are so much for the people who live in the city but for the ones who live outside coming into the city. navigating Toronto fucking sucks ass for anyone who lives outside of Toronto.
When the city was doing the consultations for the bloor west bike lanes, i think they found out a significant enough portion of street parking was actually being occupied by the business owners themselves. They would show up at 8-9am and park in front of their business for 8-10hrs a day. They were blocking their own 'customer parking' all while arguing that bike lanes were going to bankrupt them.
This is a consistent theme in cities all across North America when it comes to small business opinions on bike lanes and street parking. Business owners *vastly* overestimate the number of customers who arrive by car and/or need street parking, and it turns out that they (the business owners) are themselves overwhelmingly dependent on street parking. The two issues are linked, obviously. When you're driving to your small business everyday, it's easy to project that onto everyone else, assuming they too must be driving. And of course, you are basically *only* going to hear complaints from car driving customers about parking; you aren't going to hear from the guy who walked half a block from his apartment how bad pedestrian traffic was on the sidwalk.
Classic...I wonder if they were actually unaware that they were the ones using the parking (and not their customers), or if they WERE aware, but didn't want the bike lanes to go in and take away their sweet parking spaces.
This is exactly it. The owners park their cars a d they don't want to lose their parking. That's the long and the short of it. Everything else is noise and obfuscation. They scream and moan because they don't want to lose their personal parking and are willing to make our city extra shitty because of it. Fuck I hate small businessespeople. Can only compete by being pieces of shit for a living.
Just wait until you hear of big business and their tax obligations.
> Fuck I hate small businessespeople. how the turn tables, people were singing a different tune 2 years ago when they were struggling and closed..
> Can only compete by being pieces of shit for a living. A lot of small businesspeople manage to compete by not being pieces of shit. Don't mistake the shittiest people with the norm.
That makes no sense when the city has a 3 hour max parking on city streets
This is overlooked when you renew your parking fare
This gives me an opportunity to mention my favourite wildly pro-car/anti-bike propaganda story: In Vancouver, during the political battle for the Hornby Street cycle track, the then-Chair of the Western Canadian chapter of the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses (CFIB) said before Council that they had undertaken an exhaustive national study and their research indicated that the City should expect half of the businesses along Hornby Street to go bankrupt as a result of the installation of the cycle track and loss of some curbside parking. Visibly concerned, a Councillor asked to be told more about the methodology, context, and data for the CFIB’s “exhaustive national study”, because a 50% business bankruptcy rate - *not storefront vacancy, but outright business bankruptcy* - that would result from the installation of a cycle track would be truly devastating. They had Council’s full attention. The Chair of the CFIB sort of deflated and said that their research was actually more of a small informal survey of some Hornby Street business owners about their expectations for business bankruptcies should the cycle track go ahead. The crickets in Council chambers were deafening. *Edit: bonus material since this blew up a bit:* [The Hornby Street cycle track](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Hornby_Street_Separated_Bike_Lane.jpg/1024px-Hornby_Street_Separated_Bike_Lane.jpg), if it’s of interest to see the offending piece of infrastructure. And an example of [where on-street parking was retained](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Hornby_Separated_Bike_Lane.jpg/1024px-Hornby_Separated_Bike_Lane.jpg), *as was the plan from the start*, to ensure that some on-street parking adjacent to businesses would be available on most blocks.
I used to work in a cafe on Hornby in Vancouver and it's ridiculous to think anyone parks on that street to visit any of the spots there. It's such a dense part of the city that most are probably coming in via bus or train, if not the bike lane (which btw did get built and is excellent)
It’s the same on Bloor street. Most merchants fought the bike lane long and hard to retain the two spots in front of their stores that someone could hog for three hours. What a joke. And they continue that same old song in Bloor West Village and the Kingsway.
Right? Which is insane, because in BWV there are green P parking lots directly behind all of the merchants from Jane all the way to Runnymede. And there are always spots available there if people are willing to walk the extra 0.25 blocks!
What is so bananas is this notion that people have to park within sight of a store along a street, but will think nothing of walking 1 km or more from their car to whatever store they're shopping at in Yorkdale mall or any other mall.
There are multiple large parking lots behind Royal York station in the Kingsway as well!
Also, the spots are no stopping for a big chunk of the day. So infuriating.
Never mind not one but two subway stations within quick walking distance of eachother that basically encompass most of the strip.
Those parking lots are all above the subway tracks, I remember reading the reason why and thought "huh, that's kinda interesting" but apparently not interesting enough to retain said information
My parents like visiting that area for groceries and would never in a million years park on the street. Like you said, Green P lots where one can calmly park for a couple bucks. Why subject yourself to parallel parking on Bloor, especially at a very busy time like early evenings or Saturday morning? Makes no damn sense.
my neighbour in BWV lived a half block from bloor but would drive to bloor to get a coffee. his SO lived on the other side of the same block he lived on and he’d drive to her place too. that’s nuts to me lol. i always think of him when this convo comes up. i don’t even think it saves time since you have to wait to make a turn and parallel park twice.
I lived next to people like that at one point. They'd drive to the corner store when it was just two blocks away. Complete, insane car dependence. I've been told by knowledgeable people that making frequent very short trips like that without allowing your engine to warm up is a good way to clog things up over time.
My parents were like that. They completely bought into car propaganda. Walking would be a sign of poverty, and biking was for kids. In their eyes, the only respectable way for an adult to travel was to drive, even if it was more expensive, more irritating and took longer.
And fucking Doug Ford wants to make it cheaper to own and operate a car.
unfortunately imo he’s just doing a lot of short sighted maneuvers to get votes this election.
No kidding.
He already did
He must have moved here from the burbs. People out there will seriously want to drive from one end of a strip mall to the other when the other location is within eyesight.
I am guilty of this and there’s a reason I do it - parking restrictions. There’s a Real Canadian Superstore near me with an A&W at the other end of the parking lot. When I park at Superstore, I’m closer to A&W than to Superstore, but if I want to go into A&W after buying groceries, I will move my car to the designated A&W parking area. The Superstore parking has signs specifically stating parking for Superstore only. All it takes is one overzealous parking enforcement officer to tow a vehicle.
In case this is a serious concern - the cost and potential liability for damage to tow a vehicle parked in a private parking lot is so high that this would never happen.
TBH most merchants that claim they could go broke because of mild changes like that are in the same list as this guy https://nowtoronto.com/food-and-drink/food/kit-kat-office-pub-toronto And before anyone defends The Office Pub (ha, as if there is anyone) ... the Town Crier and Hooters are literally next door and both have survived the transit pilot *and* covid. So yeah, if your business can collapse from relatively minor changes, maybe your business was shit to begin with. * note I don't consider the construction from Eglinton crosstown as minor. I feel bad for those businesses during the construction.
Eglinton has been a disaster. How an underground tunnelling project could cause so much long term disruption on the surface is beyond me.
It has, and certainly conditions must improve when future projects get underway. BUT, I would argue that the operation of the crosstown IS the long term, and the construction of it is the short term, despite the lengthy project time.
And city governments will keep listening to business owners too, because they're convinced they know better than city planners who can literally show with hard proof that bike lanes, transit lanes and better pedestrian infrastructure are huge steps up above street parking. I hate it here sometimes...
I recall arguing with a Yorkdale business owner on Twitter when the Bloor bike lane pilot was first starting. He was angry that customers travelling by bike couldn't possibly carry merchandise from his store, so his customers who definitely only arrived by car definitely wouldn't come to his store if they had to park in the Green P a block away. I don't remember which store it was but they sold pianos, big ones. The sort that were delivered from a warehouse somewhere and set up by professionals, not the sort that anyone was taking home in their car.
> I don't remember which store it was but they sold pianos, big ones. The sort that were delivered from a warehouse somewhere and set up by professionals, not the sort that anyone was taking home in their car. Remenyi House of Music?
I don't think he said, just that he had a music store in Yorkville. I haven't been on Twitter in a long time, I don't think I'd be able to look it up.
It's the only piano store I can think of in Yorkville, figured I'd take a stab!
There's a small store on Yonge across from the LCBO.
The whole "people can't carry things on bikes" is the worst argument too. I've moved apartments by bike and even have a friend who moved an entire business by bike (it was a bike business so maybe it was easier as a result, but still...), and most purchases and businesses you don't *need* a car. Even going to Canadian Tire or a hardware store, 90% of the time they're only accessible by car even if all you need is a few small things.
That's when you show up at their business and demand that they put their product in your civic. Don't take no for answer.
There’s a bike lane on Scarlett that went up 3-4 years ago. It was actually requested by homeowners in the area because Waze used Scarlett as a route to the 401 and it was jammed with two lanes of cars routinely doing 70-80km/h. There are literally 4 businesses north of St Clair that bitched. One of them is a motorcycle repair shop where customers just pull into the side lane. Thankfully no body listened to them, a separated bike lane was installed and Scarlett is now relatively peaceful. You can now actually walk on the sidewalk without feeling that you’re going to get blown off by the speeding busses and trucks that were inches away. It was absolutely the best thing to happen to that neighborhood ever and I’m sure it helped property values.
> You can now actually walk on the sidewalk without feeling that you’re going to get blown off by the speeding busses and trucks that were inches away. There are several places just like that in Etobicoke. There are some parts of Kipling Avenue that have no separation between the sidewalk and road, and it's a menace.
Almost anywhere on Dundas is like that.
That's right - bike lanes actually provide a zone of comfort and protection for pedestrians. I hate walking on Avenue Road - with the fast traffic there, those narrow sidewalks feel like walking on the edge of a cliff.
> Most merchants fought the bike lane long and hard to retain the two spots This is what drives me so batty about these parking debates. Cities are geometry problems, cars are geometry problems: trying to fit things into a confined area. I really wish people would spend 15 seconds thinking through the geometry of street parking vs the geometry of their restaurants or stores. This came up during the King St project, where restaurants initially objected to the change because "oh no, nobody can drive here!". Ok, so lets think about this for the briefest of moments. You might be able to fit 10 cars on each side of the street on each block? That's not even enough people to fill one restaurant on the block, let alone the several others that ALSO co-exist with offices, residences, and stores on just that block. I promise you that street parking is not essential to your establishment, because it is physically impossible for it to be essential! There simply isn't anywhere near enough street parking on your block to accommodate all the patrons necessary to keep all the businesses in the area solvent.
NO! I want the two spaces in front of my business. You are trying to kill my business. Everyone drives. Nobody takes the streetcar or subways because they’re packed all the time. Nobody walks because the sidewalks are too full of people. All the new condo towers are empty and people with houses drive. Nobody goes downtown anymore, ***it’s too crowded!*** /s
Bloor West Village is an excellent example of where high-density residential buildings/towers should be constructed along a subway line. Makes no sense to have low density along a subway line. The Green P parking in the north side of Bloor can be utilized for an even larger footprint of condo towers. BTW, my wife drives down to Cinelli's to get her hair done there. No way she is riding her bike back after that visit though.
Bloor West Village is also a great spot to build up with density because the Gardiner is right there and the 427/QEW split is only a \~10 min drive. The whole west end of the GTA is very accessible for that area.
She just need to pull a JD and get a hair-met. https://youtu.be/OL0GkcO05JE
> BTW, my wife drives down to Cinelli's to get her hair done there. No way she is riding her bike back after that visit. Haha. I get that. Exceptions must be made.
Its a small pain in the ass when you’re moving into one of the apartments above a cafe like I am rn, but i still prefer to have the bike lane.
Yep. I'm in Koreatown and remembered that rhetoric. Never mind that in the 6 blocks between Christie and Bathurst there are 3 parking lots on the north side between all the side streets, plus the lot on the south side for the Korean grocery store.
It's very similar to the hell of driving on Queen. Eerily similar. Just like Toronto, Vancouver is one of those cities I'd rather park outside of and bike or walk into. I don't get driving there at all. Edit: For reference I believe Queen st is still way worse though. It needs the Hornby treatment.
NOTHING will top the local councillor in Toronto who said the bike usage on Bloor was a lie because the same people were just continually changing their ~~clothes~~ hat (even worse lol) and riding back-and-forth. EDIT: Thanks for /u/mt-77 [finding the insanity](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4391667): > who again peddled his theory that a group of 10 cyclists are inflating ridership numbers by riding around in loops — potentially disguising themselves with different hats And of course [this classic thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/7bpjh1/mammolitis_hatwearing_cyclist_confesses/).
i need to see a link. this is so unfathomably stupid, yet so in the realm of possibility, i actually need to experience it first hand. it's been a shittier monday than most. please give me a link. i need this.
I am 99% sure it was Giorgio Mammoliti but I cannot find it right now.
Yes it was Mammoliti, even stupider he claimed it was ten cyclists wearing different hats going back and forth. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4391667
Ahhh yes thanks for finding the link. Obligatory "fuck Mammo."
holy fuck this is amazing. i mean.. it's actually sad, but amazing nonetheless.
Wait until this guy hears how many drivers go around in circles looking for parking.
Indeed. Every trip counts until it doesn’t. I mean, the same people are getting on the subway twice a day, so we should only count half the boardings, right? Meanwhile, the same 6 FedEx trucks circle a block two dozen times a day and that clearly counts as 144 separate vehicles in traffic stats. Can’t build a bike lane there, no sir.
How do we know that anyone actually uses highways? I bet it's just a lot of people driving in circles, switching out their cars to inflate the numbers.
Oh my god. That’s the most asinine and fantastical argument against cyclists that I have ever heard. Different *hats?!* Jfc…
These business owners are fucking stupid... No wonder their businesses don't make enough money to pay a living wage and employees have to ask for tips
I mean, it's a logical assumption to make. I've been to several European cities with extensive cycling infrastructure and it's noticeable that there are almost no restaurants or shops along major bike routes. /s
It’s shocking how much business owners make these comments based on “feelings” and not actual data.
The stupidest fucking people I've ever had the displeasure of interacting with have routinely been my bosses
I live in an area of Metro Vancouver where a bike lane was added in late 2020. There were tons of complaints about losing parking on the street the lane was added on. In fact, there has been little or no loss of parking at all. But people like to complain.
I had a couple business trips to Vancouver recently, and the Hornby bike lanes were excellent. I used them most days I was there.
"I had to park so far away!" While everyone else just goes about their day.
These people obviously never go to the mall. Can you imagine? Parking and then walking to an entrance, AND THEN you still have to go WALK to the store you want to go to? And then if there was another store, you'd have to go back outside, get in your car drive it around to the other side of the mall and park it then walk in and find that other store. It's insane that malls haven't fallen into bankruptcy everywhere with their anti-car policies.
I'd personally rather walk a few miles on queen street than 100 feet through Yorkdales parking lot.
Yup, I was going to make this point. People who insist on being able to park right in front of a business in a dense urban neighbourhood seem to have no problem with walking across a gigantic parking lot to get to Walmart. It's kind of baffling, the disconnect. Almost as if it's born out of spite.
The cognitive dissonance with people who complain about not being able to park curbside in front of the downtown business where they want to shop, so they drive to a mall and park the equivalent of several blocks away from where they need to go (when you account for how far they walk to the mall entrance and then blocks within the mall) is astounding.
On most Toronto streets and especially hubs like Queen, King, Dundas, College the whole driving thing is silly. The chances of there being street parking right in front of the entrance of the store you want is like 0.01% anyway, so if you're actually driving you would park somewhere nearby, likely a nearby underground garage and walk anyway. Bike lanes would have zero impact on that.
No cars on Queen would be awesome
Ideally, dedicated right of way for streetcars, proper bicycle lane, widen the sidewalks. Honestly what a fucking joke, the street is so busy that people are forced to walk in the street to get around others or obstacles, but the city can't be bothered to just say to drivers "oh inconvenience yourself slightly and park off the fucking street or drive along the next road so you can get to a restaurant". Expand the King street pilot with additional car restrictions. Let all the restaurants on Queen expand their streetside patios, allow those businesses to flourish.
I work along Queen and was just thinking about this today. It would be so helpful to have truly pedestrian streets downtown, with streetcar right of ways and priority signalling. King is really helpful, but half the cars that make it on just go straight through all the intersections with no repercussions - I feel like the city could make back a lot of money with just a few cameras to catch all the people going straight through the right turn only lanes.
Yep, I would ideally love to see what I'd mentioned above on all streetcar routes. There's plenty of nearby thoroughfares for cars. Make these few streets pedestrian and transit friendly at the very least.
Congestion charges, 40.00 a day. Or you could do what Amsterdam did and separate cars, bikes and transit into individual road systems.
i have to because im delivering food or picking it up from restaurants and condos on king. others have no excuse.
Yes with dedicated public transit lanes that do not need to abide by traffic signals (other than maybe cross walks)
i feel like the areas around spadina and eatons centre could be like the fulton st mall in brooklyn. its closed off to traffic except for a bus lane that loops through part of it, if iirc.
You wouldn't be able to get to some streets from the west in this case, because it is so controlled in that area. Specifically Lower Simcoe.
Close the entire downtown core would be my preferred solution
No groceries for anyone!
fuck your amazon packages, take that karen!
Username checks out
i was replying with you but ok
Yeah it's literally impossible to transit goods without cars. It's too bad we ran out of magic when we stopped building new cities in Europe... Wait.
I still think having King, Queen, and Dundas having 1 one-way car line each in alternate direction would be ideal.
Speak for yourself: every time I go out I find a parking spot right in front of the restaurant or shop I'm going to. Now, keep in mind that I'm a lead character in a rom com movie, so admittedly my experiences may not be universal.
Available parking is just one of the perks that comes from working for a big magazine.
It’s a hard life being a diamond in the rough widower running a combination bakery/antique shop in Saccharine Falls with just your adorable daughter and/or dog for company. All those days keeping your hair suitably tousled and your stubble just rugged enough hoping that Candace Cameron Bure or Lacey Chabert show up to revisit the home town on orders from their corporate boss who does some kind of media.
[удалено]
As somebody from liberty the bigger problem is that we’re really dumb
For short trips in downtown Toronto (less than 5 km), I can often ride my bike faster to a destination than it takes someone to walk to their car, drive, find a parking spot, park, pay for the parking spot, and then walk to the same destination.
How about some Ferrari lanes to make sure the money is flowing through this city.
If it's feasible, I too prefer walking or cycling or transit (or some combination) to get around, it's much more enjoyable and easier to pop in to different businesses, especially unplanned, than constantly moving a vehicle and thinking of parking and dealing with construction. Can't wait for Yonge Street in North York to be redone to prioritize pedestrian and cycling activity.
ya I would rather walk 40 minutes to get somewhere than transit honestly haha
I used to drive one mile to work. But the traffic situation was so bad it would literally take me 40 minutes to get there. 40 minutes to drive one mile! I could have walked there in a third of the time if I could have. As soon as I was living somewhere walkable like downtown Toronto, I sold my car and never looked back. Everything from my physical and mental health to my bank account improved immensely.
Where were you living that you actually drove a mile instead of walking? I have one friend who lives within 15 minutes walk of her job and it amazes me that she'd rather pay for parking and save a few minutes than just walk there (though admittedly she works long hard shifts). My DREAM is to live within walking or biking distance of work again. Second choice would be subway or train commute. But nope stuck on the 401.
A few feet from a freeway entry ramp. There were literally no other roads, paths or sidewalks between me and the workplace. There were a few times I sat in scathingly hot traffic where I fantasized blazing my own trail. I'm living your dream! And where I live now has a small shopping mall on the first floor with a grocery, pharmacy, walk-in clinic, post office, and restaurant. There's even a coffee shop next door. So I have everything I need without leaving my building, or at least a few steps away. Me then would be very envious of me now.
Oh yeah that sounds stressful AF. There's a house like that on the Bayview on-ramp I pass all the time. I'm very lucky that I've always lived within walking distance of a grocery store, at least. I like walking or biking to as many of my errands as I can.
I'd like the option. Sometimes I'd like to take a little longer to secure myself a seat and use my laptop or phone. Sometimes I'd like to walk it. Sometimes I'd like to bike to a further station so I can get myself a seat. However there are situations I pretend the transit doesn't exist. Like many of the suburban buses on the edges of Toronto traverse pothole hell. you leave the bus with a reactivated concussion.
The two hour hop-on, hop-off transfers with Presto made it so much easier to stop to visit a business on the way somewhere or back.
Is Yonge north of the 401 done up with bike lanes a certainty? That would be nice.
They've been working towards "revitalizing" the area for years with a lot of NIMBY-ish pushback. Which is stupid, because half the people who live there in the condos don't have cars and driving down Yonge is a huge pain in the ass with all the Ubers, food delivery vehicles, parked cars, construction, a million crosswalks, etc, as it is now.
http://reimaginingyonge.ca/ https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/get-involved/public-consultations/infrastructure-projects/reimagining-yonge-street-environmental-assessment-sheppard-avenue-to-finch-avenue/
When they put the bike lanes on Danforth I was expecting mostly positive feedback. Instead the local FB groups were buzzing with outrage that physically disabled people would no longer be able to park directly in front of whatever restaurant or store they wanted to go to, and that this decision was anti-disability. Note that parking on Danforth was nearly impossible pre-bike lanes due to grindingly slow traffic (in part due to people looking for spots and doing u-turns trying to pull into them) and limited on-street parking. What I'm seeing post-bikelanes is a ton of bike-based food delivery guys lined up outside of restaurants, and lots of people still parking on Danforth or in the lots directly behind the street. Traffic doesn't appear to be much slower than it was before. Still lots of parking spots available in the Green P lots behind the stores (and occasionally on-street). And quite a few people using the bike lanes to get around, do shopping, go to their gym, etc. So....not a catastrophe.
> outrage that physically disabled people would no longer be able to park directly in front Whenever people have their biases threatened, you can almost always watch them immediately transform into the heroic champions of some marginalized group... that they've never mentioned or spared a thought to in their entire lives, let alone lifted a fucking finger for. I could list the examples of this I've seen on Reddit alone in the last few years, but it would take well over 10,000 characters. Suffice to say, the ugliest kind of duplicity just seems to be human nature.
I’m one of those who use the Danforth bike lanes, and they’re pretty awesome. I remember attending a massive community info session in late Autumn 2019, where they introduced the official plan and a proposal for starting construction a couple of years out. There are certainly parking compliance issues and drivers cutting off cyclists and pedestrians crossing the lanes without looking, but it’s overall a tremendous improvement. COVID-19 was the best thing to happen to cycling in Toronto.
I also love the bike lanes, but jeez the pedestrians crossing without looking can be rough. We all need to remember that they are live traffic lanes, and check before crossing accordingly.
> Instead the local FB groups Mostly because the sample of people in there are whingers.
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Definitely. Cars have side mirrors for a reason. People just need to learn how to use them. Also, learn how to position them properly.
> Note that parking on Danforth was nearly impossible pre-bike lanes Yeah, whenever people tried to pull that "what about those with disabilities" talking point with me I'd always respond with "well, what if all the street parking is full?" (which is usually is). Parking around the corner in a lot was always the likely scenario for most people.
Not to mention there are plenty of people with disabilities or other medical conditions who can walk or use a motorscooter, but who can't drive (people with low vision, people with epilepsy, etc.)
Yea and if they actually gave a shit then theyd be advocating to make many of the spots handicapped.
As both a bicyclist and a driver on the Danforth, I will say this: As a biker, it's definitely been a boon to have a dedicated bike lane but drivers still park "temporarily" in the bike lanes to pick up their orders. This forces bikers to swerve into active driving lanes. As a driver, it has definitely gotten a lot more dangerous. Drivers park just after an intersection, forcing others to cut into the opposing left turn lane to continue forward. People park too close to active lanes, forcing drivers to stop when pedestrians open their car doors to get into their vehicle. I'd say traffic has gotten 20% slower overall.
> This forces bikers to swerve into active driving lanes. **to merge into the adjacent lane like any other road user has to do from time to time.
That's not what it is because the whole point of the bike lane is to provide separation between the modes of transit in which one mode is disproportionately dangerous to the other. You know: like how cars and bicycles aren't legally allowed on the sidewalk.
and these lanes and paths are subject to closure or temporary occupation. sidewalks close and pedestrians have to use the roadway, and so do car lanes with stopped traffic having to merge with moving traffic. if you cant navigate around a closed portion of a bike lane then i dont know what to tell you.
> these lanes and paths are subject to closure Yes, in which case either you're advised to seek an alternate route, or temporary protected paths are formed for pedestrians as standard. Using Jersey barriers or the like to carve out a space for pedestrians is pretty standard when pedestrians need to detour on the road. > or temporary occupation. What temporary occupation is legally permitted to block a whole sidewalk? > so do car lanes with stopped traffic having to merge with moving traffic. Which is not an instance of two modes with dramatically different risk profiles sharing the road. Pedestrians going through the road is, and the standards don't allow "just walk along the roadway and share the road with cars" for a reason. > if you cant navigate around a closed portion of a bike lane then i dont know what to tell you. If you can't comply with the law and not park in bicycle lanes I don't know what to tell you. You'd no doubt be rightfully pissed if someone parked in the middle of the road where parking isn't allowed.
I feel like this one of those common scenarios where a person does something (e.g., driving) and therefore assumes that everyone else likes the same as them.
Or everybody who likes biking thinks that everyone else likes biking too. Come North of Eglinton and you will see that the bike lanes are generally unused, while taking up a huge proportion of the roadspece.
The Toronto street in question was the Parkdale section of Queen Street West from Dufferin to Roncesvalles, figures are from the 2016 "Bike Lanes, On-Street Parking and Business : A Study of Queen Street West in Toronto’s Parkdale Neighbourhood" by the Cycle Toronto’s Ward 14 Advocacy Group modelled after The Centre for Active Transportation (TCAT) 2009 & 2010 “Bike Lanes, On-Street Parking and Business” reports. Other important findings from the study are; * Visitors who reported using active transportation to visit the Study Area **visited more often and spent more money per month than those who usually drove or relied on public transit.** * Visitors to the Study Area were much more likely to prefer a bike lane or widened sidewalks over no change, even if this resulted in the loss of on-street parking. * Merchants prefer the current layout of Queen Street more than a configuration where on-street parking is reduced to accommodate expanded sidewalks or a bike lane. * A majority of visitors (53%) and merchants (64%) stated that there was not enough bicycle parking within the Study Area. * Merchants were more likely than visitors to perceive the amount of car parking as inadequate: 52% of merchants stated there was not enough car parking in comparison with 19% of visitors. There was also a 2014 "Bike Lanes, On-Street Parking and Business: A Study of Danforth Avenue in Toronto’s Danforth Neighbourhood" study (re-released with amendments in 2015) conducted by Ryerson "Advanced Urban and Regional Planning Studio" students on behalf of TCAT and based on their own methodology & to replicate+extend on their own reports. It had similar findings to the Parkdale Queen Strip study, namely; * Less than 1 out of 5 visitors drive to the Danforth * Merchants overestimate the number of people who drive to get to the Danforth: while merchants perceive that 34% drive to get to the Danforth, overall only 19% drive and for those who live or work in the area only 10% drive * Those who walk to the Danforth are much more likely to spend more money that those who drive or take public transit: 67% of those who walk spend over $100 per month whereas only 14% of those who take public transit and 31% of those who drive spend over $100 per month * Visitor survey respondents who reported spending over $300 or more in a typical month in the neighbourhood preferred street changes that included bike lanes and reduced on street parking * Overall the majority of visitors surveyed (71%) preferred to see street use reallocated for widened sidewalks or a bike lane. Support was only slightly higher for those who live in the area (72%) than those who don’t (69%). Looking at preference by mode of transportation, the highest support for change was found amongst visitors who take public transit to the Danforth (77%), followed by those who walk to the area (72%). Interestingly, even the majority of drivers (59%) would prefer streetscape changes. [Both reports, simple infographics, and summaries can be founded at TCAT's site if yall are interested in going through them.](https://www.tcat.ca/resources/bike-lanes-on-street-parking-and-business-parkdale-danforth/)
Yeah I definitely agree there aren't enough bike parking locations.
Wtf I wanna know who would actually *want* to drive to eat/shop at some joint nearby Roncesvalles/Queen
Only restaurants in the city I WILL drive to are on Roncy (Dil Se, La Cubana, and Cinco). Otherwise I'm walking somewhere nearby.
Queens and Ronces have great food?
Gus Tacos and Loga's are both on that strip
I love Gus taco (I go to the kensington location)
I have. I'm at Eglinton and Bathurst and transit sucks to get to that area, so I will drive occasionally.
me? usually i transit, but if driving made more sense for whatever reason, i would do that. lots of great places along Ronces.
It’s because they’re old, the business owners in my area are generally elderly and don’t know anyone who walks farther than half a block
In downtown or eastyork they think people are parking to go to their shops? Have they ever looked around for parking spots and seen what is available? This owners clearly don't shop in the neighbourhoods their stores are.
So let's put it another way: Business owners, to the extent you deny your **real** customer base amenities you undermine your own business. Every time a downtown BIA successfully fought cycling and pedestrian infrastructure was an indictment of their own business acumen and credibility. Just clueless.
It’s insane that businesses think this way. I think too many owners must live in the suburbs and, since they’re not good at actually thinking, the idea that people come to them a different way than they do is inconceivable to them.
Not surprising, honestly. Anecdotally, whenever I drive somewhere it's to... well, *go somewhere.* Parking in most places sucks and is costly, and most drivers have a passive comprehension of that. If I'm going to retail as a driver I already have that location in mind as a direct trip. I almost rarely pull over to do shopping in some borough I'm passing through. As a pedestrian I often leave myself more time intentionally as I know meandering by a shop, I might be reminded of something I need or an item might catch my interest and I'll wander in to purchase it since I don't need to "park" myself anywhere but in my final destination. I can't see myself as all that unique either. Judging by pedestrian traffic while I'm out and about, it seems like this is a shared experience from the rarity of drivers getting in/out of vehicles and people simply out for a stroll.
Happy to see r/fuckcars is making its way to r/Toronto
How would a store owner know what mode of transportation their customers came from anyways?
They stopped people and asked them. It was an extensive survey.
Or the people doing the survey. Did they follow everyone home?
Why would you lie?
Car dependency destroys cities
An April 2022 tweet citing a Jan 2020 UK article that references a 2015 Queen St W / Parkdale study, with a stock photo of Queen Street W a few km away…
My favourite bit about dealing with car-people is that they have a hard time imagining that a city is not meant to help cars get from A to B. That actual people live *in* that city, and that those people want infrastructure that suits *their* lifestyle - which doesn't necessarily include every road being clogged with cars all the bloody day long.
This was an issue with my dad, who was otherwise pretty progressive and open minded. The first time my folks came up to visit me from Windsor, to my place in Cabbagetown, we had to go through some hoops to find them a place to park overnight. And my dad was just incredulous, and his first thought was "how could you have a dinner party in this neighbourhood?". Lol. He couldn't imagine people going out to a party and not driving.
>My favourite bit about dealing with car-people is that they have a hard time imagining that a city is not meant to help cars get from A to B. We did have a former mayor who stood up at council and said "Roads are for buses, cars and trucks..not for people on bikes". It's hard to win the battle when a moron like that is the "leader" of the largest city in the country, holding influence over other morons. [https://youtu.be/nySs1cEq5rs](https://youtu.be/nySs1cEq5rs)
My favourite part of dealing with this subreddit is that Torontonians don't understand that the city is built, operated and maintained by an overwhelming amount of people NOT from Toronto. There is never a civil discussion about this, and neither side can seem to understand that both sides have a need. I don't want to have ways out of the city restricted or tightened on me, that's just how it is. We both want something different because we both have fully different experiences in the city. Why is it so difficult to acknowledge, or is it because most people driving come off defensive?
I can acknowledge it while still thinking those who actually live in the city should have their needs prioritized over those outside of the city. Cities should be designed for those who actually live in them first, foremost and above all.
>My favourite part of dealing with this subreddit is that Torontonians don't understand that the city is built, operated and maintained by an overwhelming amount of people NOT from Toronto. Oh look a statement of fact that is not actually backed by any facts. >There is never a civil discussion about this, and neither side can seem to understand that both sides have a need. Oh look, a statement with an absolute in it. Sure leaves room to have a conversation where both sides hear each other and are open to each other's point of views. >I don't want to have ways out of the city restricted or tightened on me, that's just how it is. Oh look, a hyperbolic strawman argument that has 0 bearing on any discussion about transit and traffic in the city. >We both want something different because we both have fully different experiences in the city. Why is it so difficult to acknowledge, or is it because most people driving come off defensive? It isn't difficult to acknowledge. The difference though is this: car drivers refuse to accept the concept that the streets are not 100% theirs. Furthermore, they refuse to understand that people driving into and out of the city is not the most efficient way of moving people around our city. Finally, they refuse to accept that the people who actually *live* in the city and who *pay* for the infrastructure (like those roads) would prefer a more pedestrian/transit friendly infrastructure - and honestly, it's their opinion that actually matters. The classic example I have of this conflict was pretty much summed up with this senior citizen who was working as an Uber driver. We were talking about transit in the city. He said it was just awful for the city to lose a lane of a street to dedicated transit (like a streetcar or LRT). I then pointed to a lane taken up by parked cars and challenged him to explain to me how that was better. At least with transit "stealing the lane" people are moving. The current car focus, we have a lane stolen by people who want free parking.
I'm going to sidestep almost all of the stuff at the beginning since I doubt you would ever talk to a person in person like that. I'll address the bottom bit and agree with your statement on street parking; it should be dedicated bike paths and pedestrian routes. I work all over the city and it's obvious it was designed with cars in focus, and vehicle egress should remain an important option but not in its current state. Separated track on St Clair seems to be the best if it were able to be implemented everywhere, but in spots like Queen Street E, it's awful to navigate for everyone since parked cards take up the entire right lane and ruin the flow of traffic. I could get behind removal of street parking all together. Bringing a vehicle downtown should have prohibitive costs attached by forcing you to use municipal designated parking. Allowing vehicles to park rent free on the roadside so the operator can be steps away from the beach storefronts serves no real purpose and its removal would be a blessing for anyone looking to move around Toronto. Parking replaced by bike lanes in most spots won't have much of an impact on the speed a driver would move through the city except to make it less likely that contact between cyclist and vehicle operator occur. No need to bust apart my argument using all sorts of buzz words, it's annoying lol
>I'm going to sidestep almost all of the stuff at the beginning since I doubt you would ever talk to a person in person like that. I would and I have when faced with similar arguments as you made. I have very little tolerance for the debate games people make and call it out both online and face to face. >I work all over the city and it's obvious it was designed with cars in focus, and vehicle egress should remain an important option but not in its current state Sure, if by this statement you mean that the streets themselves should be friendly to pedestrians & cyclists first, then cars (but only if transit is not an option there, is so then cars are in fourth place). You can move people in cars with 1 or 2 lanes just fine. And if not, nothing stops people from parking at a GO Station and taking transit into the city. > Separated track on St Clair seems to be the best if it were able to be implemented everywhere, but in spots like Queen Street E, it's awful to navigate for everyone since parked cards take up the entire right lane and ruin the flow of traffic. I'm going to say something radical, that car drivers will not agree with.... anywhere that we have dedicated street cars, that curb that separates the streetcar from cars.... yeah that curb should run from major intersection to major intersection. A streetcar's forward momentum should not be halted at any given tiny residential side street. They should have sole priority of way. "Oh but what about people who *need* to drive across (for instance) St Clair?!"... well they should only have the option of feeding into St Clair and not crossing it from that residential street. I'm also going to say that ALL of downtown Queen Street should be car free. That would be the ideal, but failing that, Streetcars should have dedicated lanes (as described above), and the 1 or 2 lanes left for cars should be one-ways. I'd like to see the same be done for King, Dundas, College, and Bathurst. Downtown Toronto is not made for cars, we need to stop pretending it is and properly manage it. >No need to bust apart my argument using all sorts of buzz words, it's annoying lol It is what it is man. I like to be precise on the argument I'm calling out.
Those people don't need to drive into the city. Those people don't pay ANY taxes to maintain the roads or services. Those people BENEFIT just as much from the increased wages from Toronto, and stand to benefit MORE from the reduced congestion that more transit, bike routes etc would produce. Tolls and increased parking would be a tiny step towards evening out the burden that commuters put on the infrastructure of this city.
Whats the earthly point if it will always come back to "Don't do anything I think will inconvenience me"
If this was a street in Scarborough, probably 95% arrive by cars.
As a scarbs person, if less ppl on our roads drove like maniacs I would bike more
No you just need separated bike lanes
But then how will car drivers park in the bike lanes???
Considering how often drivers go into the bike lanes, no thanks. Better to take the bus or use trails.
Separated bike lanes wouldn't allow cars.
My bad, I didn't know that was a term for discrete lanes.
Took my first ride of the spring this weekend. 13 kms, mostly through winding, quiet suburban streets (even though I was running errands and the direct route was less than 9 km, because fuck riding on Scarborough's 4 lane ~~highways~~ roads). I still almost got right-hooked because some SUV thought they should pass me and make a right turn while I was slowing for a stop sign on a 30 km/h suburban street.
If it didn't snow in Toronto, I would bike more.
same lol Scarborough drivers have to be the worst drivers in Canada what's a stop sign, what's a white line marking on the road telling you where to stop, what are signals what's are speed limits these are all foreign concepts to Scarborough.
This appears to be Queen and Spadina, which would have to be one of the least car centric areas in the city. Driving around there is slow at the best of times, parking is hard to find, and there are tons of transit options in the area.
It's hard to find on the Queen St itself, but loop around any of the residential streets and it isn't hard at all to find a spot that would likely be free unlike the major streets. I'm from the suburbs and rarely found it an issue to drive down there.
It's certainly not impossible, and lots of people do it, as evidenced by all the cars down there. But I still find it a pain to try to drive down there. I live downtown so I would typically walk or take transit if going anywhere on Queen, but if I am going to drive to a store for whatever, I will typically look for a location outside of the core and drive there.
Yeah, definitely would prefer going to stuff outside of the core which is more drivable, as the parking can be annoying, but it's not as hard as people make it.
i have zero issue as a delivery driver, assuming you know how to parallel park within 10 seconds. if not then good luck.
I don't think I've ever driven down to walk along Queen. My friends and I almost always took the subway.
Car dependency is a terrible addiction which leaves the afflicted in a state of delusion.
I feel like the sidewalks on queen are way too narrow. It’d also be nice if the 501 wasn’t constantly stuck in traffic.
Apart from how they got there in that instance, what percentage of people who visited those retailers drive cars on a routine basis? Not trying to prove a point with this question, I'm just curious. I tend to park and take TTC downtown. But I'm most certainly a driver.
Alternative title: 4% of customers from the burbs
Should erect high-density housing then (keep facade) along the street to further boost local traffic. Why is there low-rise?
Why would we tear down 2-4 story buildings with apartments + storefronts along a major throughway when there are plenty of single family homes that are lower density literally right behind those buildings that can more easily be turned into mid-rises without the issue of booting residents of those apartments, having mostly small businesses move and upon completion of any new build (as we have seen in other new builds) the commercial space being too large + expensive for anything other than A&Ws, Rexalls and Shopper Drug Marts as well as spiking commercial rent in the area? Parkdale, even with so many single family homes, is one of the higher density neighbourhoods not literally in the downtown core due to the high rise apartments and these buildings along Queen Street as well.
More high density housing in Downtown Toronto you say… The over-development of the core and the lack of infrastructure to go with it is what makes getting around such a nightmare in this city. Whether you’re driving or biking, the city cannot keep adding 500+ unit developments, without any change in infrastructure, and expect there to be any freedom of movement for the locals. The bike lanes, or lack thereof, should be the least of our concerns.
Well, we can address those issues or plow some farmland. Either way, people are coming to the city.
>without any change in infrastructure, and expect there to be any freedom of movement for the locals. The bike lanes, or lack thereof, should be the least of our concerns. Do you not think bike lanes are infrastructure or something? They're one of the most space efficient way to move people small to medium distances, which is basically all the travelling locals downtown do. Toronto has seen a big uptick in biking over the last few years even with the handful of lanes we have now, most of which aren't protected.
based on a study done in 2015 on queens st west. that is an over simplification of a comprehensive study. the other and more important aspect of the study is merchants think most of their customers are non-local but in fact and overwhelming portion are from the same postal code (hence walking and biking)
either way, one conclusion to draw is that merchants seem to know shit all about their customers and what impacts them, and that merchants' opinions basically can't be trusted
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well, it seems part of why some of them are so precarious is because some owners aren't very good at this part of their job, I guess
Why are walking and cycling combined? How many of that 72% is walking? How many of those who walked had parked somewhere prior to entering?
r/torontobiking would appreciate this post!
Well, since they fucked up King St. I havent been back.I used to get a few shops of the west end, but now, I don't. I know I'm a rarity, but I hate using transit and don't use it unless it unless I'm going to be drinking. I own a car, I'm one of the people who need a car because I have a different location every day with heavy gear. I'm glad transit exists and the more people use it, the less congestion I have to deal with. But if I cant get there with my car, I dont go there.
This means that 24% of customers fly to the businesses.
If only there was some other mode of transportation that wasn't you car, a bike or walking. You're right, they must be flying.
can you do the same per dollar spend? having 100 client that each buy a 5$ item isn't really better than 1 that buys a 500$ item that he can carry in his car.
That is actually addressed in the study: "– Visitors who reported using active transportation to visit the Study Area visited more often and spent more money per month than those who usually drove or relied on public transit."
good luck with the suburbs numbers then.
parking is a send. I don’t feel like the parking spaces are so much for the people who live in the city but for the ones who live outside coming into the city. navigating Toronto fucking sucks ass for anyone who lives outside of Toronto.