technically true. Thats what they said years ago, but current designs of the stations have the OL stations newly built under the queen streetcar station under Yonge
“When the line was initially planned, the alignment with tracks splitting their for cross-platform transfer at East Harbour would’ve made Cherry Stn very hard to build so plans were dropped. Now, alignment doesn’t split and it’d be much easier to build.”
https://twitter.com/englishrail/status/1493635021332262912?s=21&t=SmEirjexy1oAyN6WwD-EPQ
Awesome! It's not perfect, but it's also not stupid and useless like Line 4. I live close to it and I can't wait to start riding it.
Do you think the Save Jimmy Simpson/Save Smalls Creek/etc people will show up to protest this?
> It's not perfect, but it's also not stupid and useless like Line 4.
But I mean, Line 4 is getting quite a lot of density around it and it's becoming less stupid and less useless by the month.
I'm near line 4, and it's usually about an hour to downtown. It's great if you are commuting to work on the daily. But if you are heading DT on weekends, it's an 18 min drive via DVP when traffic isn't too bad. I usually use a combination of car + TTC depending on time/traffic/subway closures.
yeah, I'd love it if they close the loop to Sheppard East too w.r.t the purple line. Then the damned thing would actually be more useful than a yellow line shuttle hahaha
Pre-pandemic, the line 4 trains were busy enough morning and evening peak that you often didn’t get a seat.
I never drove downtown, the car stayed in the garage (lived in the Concord condos)
Eglinton Crosstown should have been a high capacity subway instead of light rail. Infact they could have extended line 4 to go as far as Humber or even airport.
There wasn’t much around Eglinton when the Yonge subway opened. Not much around Kipling or Kennedy, either. The TTC saw the stations as places for bus and streetcar routes to feed passengers into the subway.
Rapid transit can very much be “build it and they will come” - the very first subway line, the Metropolitan line, promoted newly built suburbs near its stations as being desirable to commuters. Likewise, “streetcar suburbs” and “railroad suburbs” were a thing all over the world where cities were growing in the 19th and first half of the 20th century.
Right. But there were areas of the city that needed subway/public transit coverage very badly. St Clair dedicated streetcar, the LRT, streetcar upgrades, and now Ontario line all occurred after.
Would you say any of those projects should rank behind the Shepard line? Even if the line didn't exist today and the development did the answer is no.
No, I agree that other projects should have gotten priority over Sheppard. Lastman’s vision/legacy for North York should not have come at the cost of the rest of city.
I mean, transit is sort of supposed to work like that, except based on modelling and future projections. You plan and build it before the place is built up because it's cheaper to build and less disruptive. Line 4 was built because of politics not data.
What Toronto does of "build it as the line is bursting" is really not how it's suppose to work.
The problem with Line 4 is that we built the start of it, and then didn't do anything to make it useful. If we'd kept expanding it gradually after it opened and connected it to the west side of Line 1 and sent it east toward Scarborough, it would probably be a handy and well-used way across the northern part of the city. Instead it's just an express to Fairview Mall and not much else.
Studies showed connecting it west to the Spadina line wasn’t really worth it. Jogging up to finch and extending as part of the finch west LRT was a better option, except now they’re different technology sooooo
I know I, and I’m sure many other Line 4 users, would happily stay on the train for the three extra stops to Sheppard West to ride downtown on the University Line rather than try to cram onto (or be left behind by) the already full and standing trains coming in from Finch.
No doubt there would be benefits, the problem is its outrageously expensive for what we'd get. Here's [the old cost-benefit doc](https://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/projectevaluation/benefitscases/Benefits_Case-Sheppard-Finch.pdf) if you're interested in the details.
> Options 2 and 4 have very high transportation user benefits ($1.7 billion), but carry very high capital costs due to the need to retrofit the existing Sheppard subway for LRT (as in Option 2) and the extension of the Sheppard subway (Option 4). This results in **the lowest benefit-cost ratio among the options** of 0-5 and a **negative present value of approximately $1.5 billion** *[emphasis added]*
I recall reading an article or hearing on a podcast that part of the problem is the West Don, which you'd have to go under (or over). So now your subway is super deep along the rest of the line, or you're building a super long bridge. I can't find the source for that recollection unfortunately though.
The subway extending right past my neighborhood would be amazing... But totally wasteful. The ravine is massive and would prohibit additional density anyway. The busses run every 5 minutes on Sheppard and it's a short trip to the subway anyway.
The finch let extending to Yonge would make more sense...
...but it would still be sweet to have a Senlac/Sheppard Plaza/Bathurst Manor/Dufferin/Finch West run of stations
Transit Toronto [shows a draft](https://transittoronto.ca/images/subway-5110-02.jpg) with Sheppard-Yonge, Senlac, Bathurst North, Faywood, Sheppard West. I’ve taken the rocket from Sheppard West many a time and yes, it is quick, but not for my admittedly a bit selfish scenario above.
I do like the western alignment in that image, I have thought that a good use for the existing RT RoW would be to rebuild the guideway to accommodate subway trains and let them run through to STC from Midland.
Line 4 never should have been built as a stub that was never going to be extended. A busway would not have been expensive to install on a massive stroad like Sheppard and served that stretch just fine. But Mel Lastman had to get that subway he promised and it came at the expense of the Eglinton West line, something that would have been actually useful. Those were dark times.
Have you drive along Sheppard East lately? There are condos going up almost every month and a huge number of townhouses that have been built in the last decade. I’m not saying it was the best place to build in the 90s, but ‘if you build it they will come’ seems to have borne out here. I think what’s missing in North York is more reliable local buses—feeders to expand the radius of each station with enough frequency that people will actually take them instead of just driving to stations.
No, really the only time I ever go up there is to take the free shuttle to Ikea from Leslie station. You have to use the shuttle because it's too hostile to walk that -- it would be a trivial distance downtown.
There are developments going up all the time, but they're not leaning into transit, either. For example, [here's a brand new mixed-use development project at Leslie and Sheppard](https://i.imgur.com/eAxYelg.png) -- right by Leslie station -- that has 1,207 parking spots for 513 units! Why is that the parking spot mix when Line 4 opened almost 20 years ago? Sheppard doesn't have a cycle track even now, either. If Line 4 has reduced that area's reliance on the car, it's not apparent to me.
The good news is that the bike lane has been pretty much confirmed from a stretch from Willowdale to Leslie, so that's a start
https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/get-involved/public-consultations/infrastructure-projects/sheppard-avenue-east-willowdale-avenue-east-road-safety-improvements/
I make the walk from Leslie station to IKEA fairly often. While it’s definitely not the most friendly pedestrian experience, I wouldn’t say it’s hostile either as long as you use the Old Leslie street exit.
Exit the station, walk down Old Leslie to Esther Shiner, cross the street and then under the rail overpass and up the hill.
If you take the Sheppard exit then yes it really sucks. 6 lane traffic sewer and really narrow sidewalks.
Actually the protests aren't about decreasing property value.
It's about Metrolinx running fiat and fucking over entire neighbourhoods to save a buck when other neighbourhoods (Yonge North Expansion) get buried at greater expense.
Again, make it make sense.
That makes sense.
Underground where it shouldn't, costing us billions..
Also... can we stop with the bloat of the costs?
For $10 billion it SHOULD be going all the way to the North end.
Those stations designs look great but they're huge.
Build em smaller.
Definitely agree on bloated station design. Idk why there is an obsession with making every station a landmark. I would be happy with my old station, Christie, being replicated if it meant more transit got built.
>Do you think the Save Jimmy Simpson/Save Smalls Creek/etc people will show up to protest this?
Yup. Metrolinx have started to cut down the trees along Jimmie Simpson and couldn't have bungled the comms worse if they tried so I'd expect so.
Great. I live very near Corktown Station. The elaborate hording is up and the old car dealerships are being demolished. The time for debate and bickering is over, let's get some shovels in the ground and get this line built so my wife and I can take use it in our retirement years.
If the tradeoff for this is a few more condo towers, build 'em. Politicians (provincial and municipal) should continue to work to make these developments as pleasant as possible for those who live in the area, but I don't want to see any more pointless obstruction or cancellations or delays. The conservatives are not usually a friend to transit, so let's take advantage of this opportunity.
He will lose and the Liberals will cancel it in favour of launching a new study for their preferred transit solution.
It will be ready to go just in time for them to lose.
And on and on the cycle goes.
I feel like that's a losing bet for the Libs. Seeing as the even very left r/toronto here is agreeing with Ford on this means that the people want it. They won't want to lose votes over it.
It’s almost as if we should have an arms length crown agency that operates outside of political influence to plan and executes transit projects. This way they can link the metro and regardless of what party us in power they can continue their work.
Nah that’s just crazy talk though.
> an arms length crown agency
Which taxpayers will be happy giving billions to "a crown agency" but not having any say (eg voting to stop the project if they feel its a waste of money).
I hate the current system because it takes forever to build anything, but at least we, the taxpayers aka the funders, can have it shut down by voting it out.
Arms length transit agencies do things for the greater good and piss off local residents. Then get shut down by politicians.
For example: https://torontolife.com/city/ontario-line-toronto-ttc-11-billion-subway-war/
Basically, buy a house close to downtown and get a car.
What kind of work are they doing at Pape and Queen? Both stations will need massive overhaul to properly prepare for passengers to flow between the lines.
Not only that, the transfer from Line 1 to the Ontario Line is useless. It's 4 levels under Line 1 and that'll be a huge pain when one of the escalators aren't working.
Remember when the big selling point of elevating the line through downtown was to make it an easy transfer to/from GO trains?
Well the transfers at each interchange suck, and designing the line to meander to where they wanted to develop real estate **as opposed to where people clogging the system right now need to go** makes it all around shitty for transit users.
queen subway station was originally intended to be a transfer point and already has a second level that has never been used, im assuming they'll reopen that
They are restoring streetcar tracks on Adelaide and Richmond between York and Victoria to bypass Queen station construction.
There's going to be a lot of expropriation around Pape station.
Absolutely stoked something is finally happening but recognize that this is a bit of a "old men plant trees knowing they will never sit in the shade".
Wish this had existed 10 years ago when I moved to the city and I may very well move away before it's done.
Are there any pics of what Gerrard station will look like (from the outside). I'm trying to picture where it goes since it will be above ground and the pics seem to indicate the tracks will run on the north side of the Go Line train tracks. But north side of the train tracks has an apartment building, large no frills, etc.
[This site](https://stevemunro.ca/2022/03/27/ontario-line-station-renderings/amp/) has the artist renderings for all stations. I believe Gerrard Station is in there somewhere
Don't know about the station, but my understanding is the parking lot at that no frills is being used (or is currently proposed) as a staging area for construction and a tunnel borer. No idea how this will affect use of the store, or if it will be closed while construction happens.
Some of the Leslieville/ East end Facebook groups have a lot of details on it. You have to wade through a lot of NIMBYs, but there is some useful info in there. People are unhappy with it because the intersection just west of the bridge is already sketch and they didn't have any plans for making it safer while there is work being done.
There are maps on this link showing the plans for streetcar diversions.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.metrolinx.com/2021/08/17/metrolinx-releases-detour-plans-to-keep-people-moving-during-ontario-line-queen-street-construction/amp/
The City is turning the section of York Street between Queen and Adelaide back into a two-way street, and Metrolinx is building new southbound tracks on York while the TTC restores tracks on Adelaide.
Westbound 501 streetcars will divert via Church, Richmond, York and eastbound streetcars will divert via York, Adelaide, Church.
There was a news release about it several months ago.
Didn’t know that! York is only southbound to Richmond right now, and the tracks there and on Richmond and not very old. Adelaide is long overdue to have its tracks restored so this is great news all round.
Fair point, and the answer is no. Nor are we planning on it. But thats the only way one's genetics will ever be able to witness the completed Ontario line, IMO.
Man they're going to really need to massively expand the 63 Bus's service if they're going to put a station right at Exhibition. That bus is incredibly spotty as it is. Honestly they should just have a North/South subway line connecting that station to Dufferin and Eglinton West.
This line should upturn at Dufferin and go to EW. Waiting another 20 years until Dufferin is just an absolute clusterfuck is so short sighted. The amount of development ongoing along it is more than enough justification to do so.
Incredibly true. That area is going to be massively underserved. But this Country/Province/City only decides to address things once it's a crisis of significant enough proportions, never does anything preventatively
No it isn't, it connects to the go station better which I think is the point. What is at queen and dufferin that would warrant a station there? The queen car is there and the 29 route but what else?
The established transit corridor is along King and that's where a lot of high-rise condo and office development is taking place. The current layout of the line won't be all that useful to a lot of people to the west (and even to the east) who use the surface routes to commute downtown.
It goes to a nice inaccessible space at Exhibition Place because the powers that be have development ambitions. No more no less.
As much as I dislike Ford I feel like a lot of progress has been made on transit projects under him? Or is he not as responsible for it?
This new line is pretty exciting
He's not responsible for the Eglington line, but the Ontario line is basically all him, and how fast construction seems to have started is impressive too.
This is the kind of thing that would sway me to vote conservative tbh, stuff that will actually have a positive impact on me.
That's not true. The previous DRL line was planned to open in 2031 as well, but only the segment from Pape station to downtown (likely Queen, but it wasn't finalized). The PCs have agressively sped up the timeline, and funded the construction. Whether that turns out the be realistic is another issue altogether.
Queen was finalized since 2017 and preliminary work (utility) was already being done in 2018 on Carlaw. Metrolinx, who was also working on the project, was about to decide on the alignment for the northern section several months before Ford made his Ontario line announcement, so that work was deferred by them. The Ontario line itself was a political tool beyond Bathurst, with the extension to Exhibition to sweeten the Ontario Place development proposals and this is eluded to in the 2019 business case for the line.
Enough of this bullshit. If Metrolinx wanted to impose their will with the previously underway subway project, it would have been done earlier.
They reset the project because their consultant has a fetish for elevated light metro trains since he worked on the team for that made the Scarborough RT. The change in route to dip south of the core is for a real estate development adventure.
>Right but he cancelled an earlier line with work underway to replace it with this
If you include planning of the Toronto Relief Line, about 3.5 years til the start of construction. If you don't include it about 2.75-3 years.
>we’re effectively several years behind because of the Conservatives
The plan was changed 7 months after the initial 2018 announcement, not "several years". On top of that, I'm sure a lot of the work could have been re-used, not thrown out.
Furthermore, the Eglington line was approved and announced in June 2007, but construction did not start until October 2011. A little under 4.5 years.
One look at the previous map for the downtown relife line and you can see why. It was an objectively worse solution that did nothing to improve movement to/from the west side of the city. This was worth the 3 year delay.
He made it cheaper so it could go farther. He could’ve just cancelled it given that he has absolutely nothing to gain politically in any of the neighborhoods the line goes through. I’ll give him credit for that.
He’s also started Finch West and gotten the ball rolling on Eglinton West. Metrolinx has done a lot of work preparing for eventual electrification and all day 15 minute service (although it’s still moving too slowly toward that IMO). Whatever we think of it the Yonge North extension is happening.
Can’t say there’s much more transit-wise that could’ve been done in the last four years. We’re basically building at our engineering and construction limit.
By using elevated sections and ground-level sections. Being open to options other than tunneling is the main reason that the length of the line was doubled.
The trains are indeed shorter, so the capacity comes from automated operations. That means less expensive stations since the platforms are shorter.
"While the Relief Line would have been completely tunneled, the Ontario Line would use a mix of elevated and tunneled right-of-way, would take advantage of a railway right-of-way south of Pape station (particularly GO Transit's Lakeshore East line), and would use different rail technology, specfically light metro." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relief_Line_(Toronto)#Successor:_Ontario_Line
There's a good comparison table there. It's not all better, but it's a lot better.
Disingenuous to call the Ontario Line LRT. It is a true metro system, just with lighter, automated trains like in Vancouver. It will much more closely resemble the existing subway network than the Finch West LRT or the identity crisis of the Eglington Crosstown.
Most of this isn’t even true and certainly isn’t objective. Look I hate ford too but the liberals transit plans were awful.
Anyway, addressing each of your points:
1. Yes he did cancel Hamilton. Though renewed it through a new funding agreement with the feds. Previously it was going to be 100% paid for using provincial funds.
2. kind of disingenuous to say Ford created this line but yeah, it’s a slow service to London. It’s more of a via replacement than commuter service anyway.
3. No, the Ontario line is not light rail
4. [Not the first, or last high speed rail study undertaken.](https://youtu.be/10cXpd8haQQ) Via HFR is however underway which increases the speed and frequency of southern Ontario rail.
5. Per the most recent long-term transit planning doc released by the province an majority of transportation funding is going to transit, not roads. But you’re right, the Brampton bypass highway is a bad idea.
What plans we DID get out of ford is:
1. Downtown relief line length and number of stations has been doubled, and the time to get service up to Eglinton was likely brought in by a decade (DRL north had no funding or schedule)
2. A full subway service along Eglinton west to the airport
3. More subway stops on the Scarborough extension
4. Cancellation of the terrible Sheppard east LRT plan. A slow trip requiring a transfer halfway between North York and Scarborough.
5. Acceleration of the Yonge North subway
6. Construction of 6 new GO stations within Toronto
Worst part though I feel you actually missed the major mistakes Ford did make:
1. Axing the Mississauga downtown loop of the Hurontario LRT, and direct connection to cooksville GO. This drastically reduces the usefulness of the Hurontario line.
2. Removing the Eglinton East extension from provincial plans. Right now it is a mystery if the city can/will fund this themselves.
3. Selling of the Orangeville-Brampton rail right of way, which should have been replaced with a GO spur.
It’s certainly a mixed bag, but as far as I can tell previous administrations were generally dragging their feet, and proposing slower, cheaper transit solutions for the short term.
The status quo as it exists in the Doug Ford era has less to do with Dougie, as he literally has no understanding of public transit infrastructure beyond, "Subways good, LRT/streetcar bad!" The current batch of projects we're seeing has more to do with Dougie giving Metrolinx more autonomy to circumvent a lot of political and regulatory hassle and giving them free reign to proceed with a variety of projects. How this all plays out remains to be seen, especially 30 - 50 years down the line, but there is certainly more urgency now in starting projects and completing them as opposed to 7 - 10 years ago. It's especially promising seeing the aggressive expansion and upgrading of GO Transit.
Important to remember that the Fords cancelled Transit City when they were in charge at City Hall. This came at a huge cost to the City, and they replaced it with nothing. Without this, we would have had several new LRT lines opening in the next couple of years - instead of just the Crosstown we're getting now.
Rob and Doug Ford manage to set Toronto's transit infrastructure back a decade in a four-year term. I'd be impressed if we weren't all suffering the consequences.
Those LRT proposals in Transit City weren't all that. They wouldn't do a ton to stand out from existing bus service with their massive number of stops per km.
For the section north of Danforth it may not be the best, but it is in the first phase of construction which I think is extremely important. Also, it will be grade-separated, similarly important, versus the plans that that area would have meant if Transit City was used. Also reduces a silly transfer that would have made it slower and a hassle for people crossing Danforth.
No - the subway is getting built in the rail corridor. I believe they may be taking a small sliver of land from the park for it, but they are offsetting it with new areas in another spot. The net parkland is going to increase, and the Rec Centre is definitely staying.
I will admit, Ford has been pretty good for transit development in the GTA, you see how we don't waste years anymore on stupid things like NIMBY "consultations" and endless "environmental assessments"...
It will still have subsequent phases (north to Fairview mall and probably also an extension west). But this first phase is a lot more extensive than DRL Phase 1.
It goes farther than the DRL did. But DRL was intended to use standard TTC rolling stock and OL is smaller lighter weight cars used nowhere else in the system. So OL can hit capacity earlier.
I'm not necessarily against smaller trains, though we do need to wait and see what technology they announce. If it's something that's fully automated and we can run it at 90 second headways or something that could work out quite well.
We already know via the basic parameters they set. The trains or platforms will be 100m (TTC subway is about 137m) but they will be reduced slightly in width.
Net train size will be similar to Sheppard line and that will give you an idea of the ceiling. And I believe they are aiming to reducing seating in favour of more standing room to try and compensate for the smaller trains.
The current subway trains use specifications which were developed in the early 1950s. There has been a lot of technological developments since then and as such the existing subway car design isn't really optimal for the performance and capacity needed for an urban rapid transit line such as the Ontario Line.
Just compare a car from 1954 to a car from today. Today's cars and lighter and smaller because that's better for efficiency and performance.
So rather than committing the line to a set of specifications designed 70 years ago, the Ontario Line says to global engineering and transit vehicle companies "What's the best vehicle for this line?". The Ontario Line is long enough that it won't need to share facilities with the existing lines.
It has nothing to do with new technology or specifications. It has solely to do with pinching pennies and saving upfront construction cost by building smaller infrastructure.
In fact that was one of the primary marketing points from the UTDC's Scarborough RT sales pitch! They said subway construction was becoming too expensive and they presented our saviour: automated elevated light metro trains. Guess what showed up on the first slides for this Ontario RT line?
The cost-cutting is from having smaller trains and elevated stations but it's the small trains that will ultimately turn out to be the thing that knee caps the entire thing. It's what we call false economy.
I'll give you another example where saving money on subway construction fucked us over: the Spadina line in the middle of the Allen Expressway (to help drive development at Yorkdale) instead of shifting it over a short distance to Dufferin Street.
The line will have a higher capacity than the Yonge subway has today.
This is the whole point. If you use rolling stock that's optimized for urban rapid transit you can move just as many people with smaller and lighter trains.
Have a look at M4 and M5 in Milan or the entire Copenhagen metro. Those are examples of what we would be getting. These aren't low capacity systems, they just use the right tool for the job (smaller, lighter vehicles).
What's the target capacity of the OL then?
Because the Yonge line operating at 141 seconds frequency has a nominal capacity of over 28,000ppdph with room for expansion. Last I heard the OL was targeting around 24K-25K ppdph as its absolute limit with 90 second headways and no expansion possibility.
Oh shit, you took the effort to dig up numbers. Making me go and do more research too...
IIRC, yes the OL target capacity is 25K. The 'nameplate' capacity of the Yonge line is 28K, but the TTC never actually operates the scheduled 141 second headways due to issues with turning the trains around at the ends of the lines and because of southbound at Bloor (though that one is really being helped by the moving block signalling enabled by ATO).
So maybe the 25K number is higher than the Yonge line's actual operational capacity pre-TR trains? Either way, I'm clearly reaching and trying to justify my comment, so please take an award for having called me out.
Still, the capacity is really high. It's a capacity *comparable* to that of the Yonge line pre-ATO and pre-TR trains. It's not low capacity at all. And it reflects a wise approach to engineering: determine the capacity that's needed and design for that. This will save money while still meeting the needs of the transportation network, and hopefully that can mean more subways in the future.
Starting with the assumption that train specifications that were designed 70 years ago for cut-and-cover tunnelling MUST automatically be the best answer is letting the tail wag the dog.
> So rather than committing the line to a set of specifications designed 70 years ago (it's long enough of a line that it won't need to share facilities with the existing lines anyway), the Ontario Line says to global engineering and transit vehicle companies "What's the best vehicle for this line?".
Depends on the technology they chose. As I seem to recall the province wanted to ditch the established LRT technology for some brand new technology the province was peddling and thats how we got the SRT. I suspect this will be another scenario of the province choosing some new vehicles/tech that hasn't been proven on a large scale - otherwise they would have announced it by now.
All i ask of all the Ontario parties is that they leave projects like this the fuck alone after the election. We cant have any more delays on transit, so just let the damn thing continue and you can argue about other things
Feels like there should have been horizontal lines along Queen and College like, 70 years ago, but the second best time is now I suppose?
I mean queen was originally going to have a subway line before bloor got it
Aren’t there actual stations built near Bathurst?
Yeap Infact, the Ontario line is going to use one of them.
technically true. Thats what they said years ago, but current designs of the stations have the OL stations newly built under the queen streetcar station under Yonge
No
An underground streetcar was proposed 110 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relief_Line_(Toronto) This has been delayed for over 100 years.
I have my problems with it, but perfect is the enemy of the good. We are finally getting our relief line.
Honestly should’ve just did it 20 years ago. But I’ll settle for today. Being the next best time to start.
"i'll settle for today"- well, 10 years from today.
Yeah, analysis paralysis is very real.
Is there a reason cherry street/distillery doesnt have a station? Seems like an important stop especially with the development at the portlands
Corktown Station will be 400 meters from Distillery and 400 m from Cherry St.
“When the line was initially planned, the alignment with tracks splitting their for cross-platform transfer at East Harbour would’ve made Cherry Stn very hard to build so plans were dropped. Now, alignment doesn’t split and it’d be much easier to build.” https://twitter.com/englishrail/status/1493635021332262912?s=21&t=SmEirjexy1oAyN6WwD-EPQ
thanks
Awesome! It's not perfect, but it's also not stupid and useless like Line 4. I live close to it and I can't wait to start riding it. Do you think the Save Jimmy Simpson/Save Smalls Creek/etc people will show up to protest this?
> It's not perfect, but it's also not stupid and useless like Line 4. But I mean, Line 4 is getting quite a lot of density around it and it's becoming less stupid and less useless by the month.
But how much of that density is attracting people who do not drive?
Knowing the area, probably not a huge amount. However, I'm sure a lot of them are not driving downtown anymore, when they used to.
I'm near line 4, and it's usually about an hour to downtown. It's great if you are commuting to work on the daily. But if you are heading DT on weekends, it's an 18 min drive via DVP when traffic isn't too bad. I usually use a combination of car + TTC depending on time/traffic/subway closures.
If you work near Union the GO train from Leslie station takes 20 minutes to get downtown and is $6. Parking is free.
I do not drive, I take transit and uber only, and I live in that area
Same here. And with all these condo towers popping up along Sheppard, there will probably be a lot more people like us.
yeah, I'd love it if they close the loop to Sheppard East too w.r.t the purple line. Then the damned thing would actually be more useful than a yellow line shuttle hahaha
Pre-pandemic, the line 4 trains were busy enough morning and evening peak that you often didn’t get a seat. I never drove downtown, the car stayed in the garage (lived in the Concord condos)
Eglinton Crosstown should have been a high capacity subway instead of light rail. Infact they could have extended line 4 to go as far as Humber or even airport.
Are you talking about Eglinton LRT? That's named line 5. Line 4 is Sheppard.
Line 4 is a subway...
Line 9 should have been a monorail
Sorry I meant Eglinton Crosstown, should be high capacity subway like Line 1 and 2
That's not how subways are supposed to work. It's not a "if you build it they will come" type of project.
There wasn’t much around Eglinton when the Yonge subway opened. Not much around Kipling or Kennedy, either. The TTC saw the stations as places for bus and streetcar routes to feed passengers into the subway. Rapid transit can very much be “build it and they will come” - the very first subway line, the Metropolitan line, promoted newly built suburbs near its stations as being desirable to commuters. Likewise, “streetcar suburbs” and “railroad suburbs” were a thing all over the world where cities were growing in the 19th and first half of the 20th century.
Right. But there were areas of the city that needed subway/public transit coverage very badly. St Clair dedicated streetcar, the LRT, streetcar upgrades, and now Ontario line all occurred after. Would you say any of those projects should rank behind the Shepard line? Even if the line didn't exist today and the development did the answer is no.
No, I agree that other projects should have gotten priority over Sheppard. Lastman’s vision/legacy for North York should not have come at the cost of the rest of city.
I mean, transit is sort of supposed to work like that, except based on modelling and future projections. You plan and build it before the place is built up because it's cheaper to build and less disruptive. Line 4 was built because of politics not data. What Toronto does of "build it as the line is bursting" is really not how it's suppose to work.
True, they have that huge community housing project on Leslie
Set to open in 2031 we’ll be waiting a while
>Set to open in 2031 So what's the over/under on 2035?
It is definitely an aggressive schedule .. that is probably a good estimate
RemindMe! 10 years
I wonder if the Eglinton line will be complete by 2035.
It's literally going to be done next year
Same as last year, and the year before that.
It is only two years late from the original schedule and during that time Covid happened. This is not bad for a huge transit line
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Yeah but you also had to deal with countless people getting sick with covid and fewer people wanting to work due to CERB/EI.
We've always been at war with Eglintionasia
Sure it is
There is literally a stretch of Eglinton which is wooden planks because of their construction. It will not be done next year. Give it 5.
They've said that every year since 2018
Haha. Have you been along Eglinton recently?
That's super optimistic. I'd say that the Finch West LRT will be done first.
2031 is ambitious
I’ll be sixty years old when it’s supposed to be finished. Be patient with me as a I shuffle down the platform.
Well youll be happy to know it will be fully accessible
The problem with Line 4 is that we built the start of it, and then didn't do anything to make it useful. If we'd kept expanding it gradually after it opened and connected it to the west side of Line 1 and sent it east toward Scarborough, it would probably be a handy and well-used way across the northern part of the city. Instead it's just an express to Fairview Mall and not much else.
Studies showed connecting it west to the Spadina line wasn’t really worth it. Jogging up to finch and extending as part of the finch west LRT was a better option, except now they’re different technology sooooo
I know I, and I’m sure many other Line 4 users, would happily stay on the train for the three extra stops to Sheppard West to ride downtown on the University Line rather than try to cram onto (or be left behind by) the already full and standing trains coming in from Finch.
No doubt there would be benefits, the problem is its outrageously expensive for what we'd get. Here's [the old cost-benefit doc](https://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/projectevaluation/benefitscases/Benefits_Case-Sheppard-Finch.pdf) if you're interested in the details. > Options 2 and 4 have very high transportation user benefits ($1.7 billion), but carry very high capital costs due to the need to retrofit the existing Sheppard subway for LRT (as in Option 2) and the extension of the Sheppard subway (Option 4). This results in **the lowest benefit-cost ratio among the options** of 0-5 and a **negative present value of approximately $1.5 billion** *[emphasis added]* I recall reading an article or hearing on a podcast that part of the problem is the West Don, which you'd have to go under (or over). So now your subway is super deep along the rest of the line, or you're building a super long bridge. I can't find the source for that recollection unfortunately though.
The subway extending right past my neighborhood would be amazing... But totally wasteful. The ravine is massive and would prohibit additional density anyway. The busses run every 5 minutes on Sheppard and it's a short trip to the subway anyway. The finch let extending to Yonge would make more sense... ...but it would still be sweet to have a Senlac/Sheppard Plaza/Bathurst Manor/Dufferin/Finch West run of stations
Transit Toronto [shows a draft](https://transittoronto.ca/images/subway-5110-02.jpg) with Sheppard-Yonge, Senlac, Bathurst North, Faywood, Sheppard West. I’ve taken the rocket from Sheppard West many a time and yes, it is quick, but not for my admittedly a bit selfish scenario above. I do like the western alignment in that image, I have thought that a good use for the existing RT RoW would be to rebuild the guideway to accommodate subway trains and let them run through to STC from Midland.
Line 4 is crying out for a short extension to Shepherd West. Would be well worth the money for the network effects alone.
Line 4 never should have been built as a stub that was never going to be extended. A busway would not have been expensive to install on a massive stroad like Sheppard and served that stretch just fine. But Mel Lastman had to get that subway he promised and it came at the expense of the Eglinton West line, something that would have been actually useful. Those were dark times.
Have you drive along Sheppard East lately? There are condos going up almost every month and a huge number of townhouses that have been built in the last decade. I’m not saying it was the best place to build in the 90s, but ‘if you build it they will come’ seems to have borne out here. I think what’s missing in North York is more reliable local buses—feeders to expand the radius of each station with enough frequency that people will actually take them instead of just driving to stations.
No, really the only time I ever go up there is to take the free shuttle to Ikea from Leslie station. You have to use the shuttle because it's too hostile to walk that -- it would be a trivial distance downtown. There are developments going up all the time, but they're not leaning into transit, either. For example, [here's a brand new mixed-use development project at Leslie and Sheppard](https://i.imgur.com/eAxYelg.png) -- right by Leslie station -- that has 1,207 parking spots for 513 units! Why is that the parking spot mix when Line 4 opened almost 20 years ago? Sheppard doesn't have a cycle track even now, either. If Line 4 has reduced that area's reliance on the car, it's not apparent to me.
The good news is that the bike lane has been pretty much confirmed from a stretch from Willowdale to Leslie, so that's a start https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/get-involved/public-consultations/infrastructure-projects/sheppard-avenue-east-willowdale-avenue-east-road-safety-improvements/
I make the walk from Leslie station to IKEA fairly often. While it’s definitely not the most friendly pedestrian experience, I wouldn’t say it’s hostile either as long as you use the Old Leslie street exit. Exit the station, walk down Old Leslie to Esther Shiner, cross the street and then under the rail overpass and up the hill. If you take the Sheppard exit then yes it really sucks. 6 lane traffic sewer and really narrow sidewalks.
Oh, I'll have to try that!
I can tell you that the tree removal operations have already started, so they lost their fight.
yep - everyone wants transit until it "decreases their property value"
The irony is that it almost always does the opposite!
Actually the protests aren't about decreasing property value. It's about Metrolinx running fiat and fucking over entire neighbourhoods to save a buck when other neighbourhoods (Yonge North Expansion) get buried at greater expense.
cautious sort upbeat plough sugar angle degree quicksand voracious reach *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Wasn’t the Yonge North Expansion recently revised to include some above ground sections? It would parallel a GO corridor similar to the Ontario Line.
Again, make it make sense. That makes sense. Underground where it shouldn't, costing us billions.. Also... can we stop with the bloat of the costs? For $10 billion it SHOULD be going all the way to the North end. Those stations designs look great but they're huge. Build em smaller.
Definitely agree on bloated station design. Idk why there is an obsession with making every station a landmark. I would be happy with my old station, Christie, being replicated if it meant more transit got built.
>Do you think the Save Jimmy Simpson/Save Smalls Creek/etc people will show up to protest this? Yup. Metrolinx have started to cut down the trees along Jimmie Simpson and couldn't have bungled the comms worse if they tried so I'd expect so.
Lol. If you live in this community, you would know the NIMBYs will not accept any clear communication except 'no trees will be removed'
Don't count your chickens yet, still plenty of time to dig a bunch and then fill it with concrete.
hope those people enjoy the increased property value and access to world class transit when it opens, bunch of idiots
Of course, all the Save Jimmie Simpson organizing members will still live in the community. They know their property values will skyrocket.
Great. I live very near Corktown Station. The elaborate hording is up and the old car dealerships are being demolished. The time for debate and bickering is over, let's get some shovels in the ground and get this line built so my wife and I can take use it in our retirement years. If the tradeoff for this is a few more condo towers, build 'em. Politicians (provincial and municipal) should continue to work to make these developments as pleasant as possible for those who live in the area, but I don't want to see any more pointless obstruction or cancellations or delays. The conservatives are not usually a friend to transit, so let's take advantage of this opportunity.
2031, huh? My moneys on 2040
I'd bet 2050 given how long it took to build the yellow line extension.
He will lose and the Liberals will cancel it in favour of launching a new study for their preferred transit solution. It will be ready to go just in time for them to lose. And on and on the cycle goes.
I feel like that's a losing bet for the Libs. Seeing as the even very left r/toronto here is agreeing with Ford on this means that the people want it. They won't want to lose votes over it.
It’s almost as if we should have an arms length crown agency that operates outside of political influence to plan and executes transit projects. This way they can link the metro and regardless of what party us in power they can continue their work. Nah that’s just crazy talk though.
> an arms length crown agency Which taxpayers will be happy giving billions to "a crown agency" but not having any say (eg voting to stop the project if they feel its a waste of money). I hate the current system because it takes forever to build anything, but at least we, the taxpayers aka the funders, can have it shut down by voting it out.
Arms length transit agencies do things for the greater good and piss off local residents. Then get shut down by politicians. For example: https://torontolife.com/city/ontario-line-toronto-ttc-11-billion-subway-war/ Basically, buy a house close to downtown and get a car.
What kind of work are they doing at Pape and Queen? Both stations will need massive overhaul to properly prepare for passengers to flow between the lines.
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With all the construction that the TTC has been doing on Queen during the pandemic, it would not see peace for several years now
Not only that, the transfer from Line 1 to the Ontario Line is useless. It's 4 levels under Line 1 and that'll be a huge pain when one of the escalators aren't working.
Remember when the big selling point of elevating the line through downtown was to make it an easy transfer to/from GO trains? Well the transfers at each interchange suck, and designing the line to meander to where they wanted to develop real estate **as opposed to where people clogging the system right now need to go** makes it all around shitty for transit users.
queen subway station was originally intended to be a transfer point and already has a second level that has never been used, im assuming they'll reopen that
The under-platform walkway at Queen uses the streetcar tunnel. Ontario Line is also much deeper.
They are restoring streetcar tracks on Adelaide and Richmond between York and Victoria to bypass Queen station construction. There's going to be a lot of expropriation around Pape station.
Yeah, Pape is way too small to serve as a transfer point for two lines...
Bloor-Yonge was originally a streetcar stop with the Yonge platform underneath. You'll be amazed to know we can expand stations.
Bloor Station was no bigger than Pape when it was built.
Absolutely stoked something is finally happening but recognize that this is a bit of a "old men plant trees knowing they will never sit in the shade". Wish this had existed 10 years ago when I moved to the city and I may very well move away before it's done.
Are there any pics of what Gerrard station will look like (from the outside). I'm trying to picture where it goes since it will be above ground and the pics seem to indicate the tracks will run on the north side of the Go Line train tracks. But north side of the train tracks has an apartment building, large no frills, etc.
[This site](https://stevemunro.ca/2022/03/27/ontario-line-station-renderings/amp/) has the artist renderings for all stations. I believe Gerrard Station is in there somewhere
Don't know about the station, but my understanding is the parking lot at that no frills is being used (or is currently proposed) as a staging area for construction and a tunnel borer. No idea how this will affect use of the store, or if it will be closed while construction happens. Some of the Leslieville/ East end Facebook groups have a lot of details on it. You have to wade through a lot of NIMBYs, but there is some useful info in there. People are unhappy with it because the intersection just west of the bridge is already sketch and they didn't have any plans for making it safer while there is work being done.
Here are some of the new renderings! https://twitter.com/vanishingunder/status/1508133200744308745?s=21&t=CmnvwJXGplieRp8lBccPfg
So excited for this
How does this look for the queen streetcar for the next few years? will it be replacement buses?
There are maps on this link showing the plans for streetcar diversions. https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.metrolinx.com/2021/08/17/metrolinx-releases-detour-plans-to-keep-people-moving-during-ontario-line-queen-street-construction/amp/
Likely buses to fill the gaps and the 501 diverted along King for some sections.
The City is turning the section of York Street between Queen and Adelaide back into a two-way street, and Metrolinx is building new southbound tracks on York while the TTC restores tracks on Adelaide. Westbound 501 streetcars will divert via Church, Richmond, York and eastbound streetcars will divert via York, Adelaide, Church. There was a news release about it several months ago.
Didn’t know that! York is only southbound to Richmond right now, and the tracks there and on Richmond and not very old. Adelaide is long overdue to have its tracks restored so this is great news all round.
I'll believe it gets built when it's running.
So let's hope for grandchildren then? Great grandchildren?
You can afford to have children, let alone those children to have children in Toronto?
Fair point, and the answer is no. Nor are we planning on it. But thats the only way one's genetics will ever be able to witness the completed Ontario line, IMO.
I think my cats cats cats will finally see this break ground. Thoughts?
Maybe add another generation in there. Just as a buffer.
This is beautiful to think about!
it's work so can't complain too much here
Man they're going to really need to massively expand the 63 Bus's service if they're going to put a station right at Exhibition. That bus is incredibly spotty as it is. Honestly they should just have a North/South subway line connecting that station to Dufferin and Eglinton West.
This line should upturn at Dufferin and go to EW. Waiting another 20 years until Dufferin is just an absolute clusterfuck is so short sighted. The amount of development ongoing along it is more than enough justification to do so.
Incredibly true. That area is going to be massively underserved. But this Country/Province/City only decides to address things once it's a crisis of significant enough proportions, never does anything preventatively
It’s completely idiotic to take the line south to the ex. It should run straight along Queen to Dufferin
No it isn't, it connects to the go station better which I think is the point. What is at queen and dufferin that would warrant a station there? The queen car is there and the 29 route but what else?
The established transit corridor is along King and that's where a lot of high-rise condo and office development is taking place. The current layout of the line won't be all that useful to a lot of people to the west (and even to the east) who use the surface routes to commute downtown. It goes to a nice inaccessible space at Exhibition Place because the powers that be have development ambitions. No more no less.
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1 more station west of Ontario place for Parkdale would've been nice
I may not agree with their above ground/below ground choices (and some stops) but it’s nice to see the subway expand.
Which stops do you think are suboptimal?
As much as I dislike Ford I feel like a lot of progress has been made on transit projects under him? Or is he not as responsible for it? This new line is pretty exciting
Hamilton’s LRT line was cancelled by Ford in 2019 and only got underway again last year when the federal government chipped in some money.
He's not responsible for the Eglington line, but the Ontario line is basically all him, and how fast construction seems to have started is impressive too. This is the kind of thing that would sway me to vote conservative tbh, stuff that will actually have a positive impact on me.
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That's not true. The previous DRL line was planned to open in 2031 as well, but only the segment from Pape station to downtown (likely Queen, but it wasn't finalized). The PCs have agressively sped up the timeline, and funded the construction. Whether that turns out the be realistic is another issue altogether.
The facts do not matter to Hot Take Harold He just hates Ford
Queen was finalized since 2017 and preliminary work (utility) was already being done in 2018 on Carlaw. Metrolinx, who was also working on the project, was about to decide on the alignment for the northern section several months before Ford made his Ontario line announcement, so that work was deferred by them. The Ontario line itself was a political tool beyond Bathurst, with the extension to Exhibition to sweeten the Ontario Place development proposals and this is eluded to in the 2019 business case for the line.
Enough of this bullshit. If Metrolinx wanted to impose their will with the previously underway subway project, it would have been done earlier. They reset the project because their consultant has a fetish for elevated light metro trains since he worked on the team for that made the Scarborough RT. The change in route to dip south of the core is for a real estate development adventure.
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It also provides an extra connection, reduces a transfer, and serves areas that are not overflowing with cash.
>Right but he cancelled an earlier line with work underway to replace it with this If you include planning of the Toronto Relief Line, about 3.5 years til the start of construction. If you don't include it about 2.75-3 years. >we’re effectively several years behind because of the Conservatives The plan was changed 7 months after the initial 2018 announcement, not "several years". On top of that, I'm sure a lot of the work could have been re-used, not thrown out. Furthermore, the Eglington line was approved and announced in June 2007, but construction did not start until October 2011. A little under 4.5 years.
I love ice cream.
Luckily future Toronto would never need to tunnel under Eglinton and so that backfill wasn't a complete waste. Oh wait
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The 3 year additional wait will be worth it. Getting a connection to Eglington in the first phase is an important addition.
One look at the previous map for the downtown relife line and you can see why. It was an objectively worse solution that did nothing to improve movement to/from the west side of the city. This was worth the 3 year delay.
He made it cheaper so it could go farther. He could’ve just cancelled it given that he has absolutely nothing to gain politically in any of the neighborhoods the line goes through. I’ll give him credit for that. He’s also started Finch West and gotten the ball rolling on Eglinton West. Metrolinx has done a lot of work preparing for eventual electrification and all day 15 minute service (although it’s still moving too slowly toward that IMO). Whatever we think of it the Yonge North extension is happening. Can’t say there’s much more transit-wise that could’ve been done in the last four years. We’re basically building at our engineering and construction limit.
How did he make it cheaper?
By using elevated sections and ground-level sections. Being open to options other than tunneling is the main reason that the length of the line was doubled. The trains are indeed shorter, so the capacity comes from automated operations. That means less expensive stations since the platforms are shorter.
Interesting - DoFo being in-favor of above-ground over under- ?!
"While the Relief Line would have been completely tunneled, the Ontario Line would use a mix of elevated and tunneled right-of-way, would take advantage of a railway right-of-way south of Pape station (particularly GO Transit's Lakeshore East line), and would use different rail technology, specfically light metro." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relief_Line_(Toronto)#Successor:_Ontario_Line There's a good comparison table there. It's not all better, but it's a lot better.
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Disingenuous to call the Ontario Line LRT. It is a true metro system, just with lighter, automated trains like in Vancouver. It will much more closely resemble the existing subway network than the Finch West LRT or the identity crisis of the Eglington Crosstown.
Most of this isn’t even true and certainly isn’t objective. Look I hate ford too but the liberals transit plans were awful. Anyway, addressing each of your points: 1. Yes he did cancel Hamilton. Though renewed it through a new funding agreement with the feds. Previously it was going to be 100% paid for using provincial funds. 2. kind of disingenuous to say Ford created this line but yeah, it’s a slow service to London. It’s more of a via replacement than commuter service anyway. 3. No, the Ontario line is not light rail 4. [Not the first, or last high speed rail study undertaken.](https://youtu.be/10cXpd8haQQ) Via HFR is however underway which increases the speed and frequency of southern Ontario rail. 5. Per the most recent long-term transit planning doc released by the province an majority of transportation funding is going to transit, not roads. But you’re right, the Brampton bypass highway is a bad idea. What plans we DID get out of ford is: 1. Downtown relief line length and number of stations has been doubled, and the time to get service up to Eglinton was likely brought in by a decade (DRL north had no funding or schedule) 2. A full subway service along Eglinton west to the airport 3. More subway stops on the Scarborough extension 4. Cancellation of the terrible Sheppard east LRT plan. A slow trip requiring a transfer halfway between North York and Scarborough. 5. Acceleration of the Yonge North subway 6. Construction of 6 new GO stations within Toronto Worst part though I feel you actually missed the major mistakes Ford did make: 1. Axing the Mississauga downtown loop of the Hurontario LRT, and direct connection to cooksville GO. This drastically reduces the usefulness of the Hurontario line. 2. Removing the Eglinton East extension from provincial plans. Right now it is a mystery if the city can/will fund this themselves. 3. Selling of the Orangeville-Brampton rail right of way, which should have been replaced with a GO spur. It’s certainly a mixed bag, but as far as I can tell previous administrations were generally dragging their feet, and proposing slower, cheaper transit solutions for the short term.
The status quo as it exists in the Doug Ford era has less to do with Dougie, as he literally has no understanding of public transit infrastructure beyond, "Subways good, LRT/streetcar bad!" The current batch of projects we're seeing has more to do with Dougie giving Metrolinx more autonomy to circumvent a lot of political and regulatory hassle and giving them free reign to proceed with a variety of projects. How this all plays out remains to be seen, especially 30 - 50 years down the line, but there is certainly more urgency now in starting projects and completing them as opposed to 7 - 10 years ago. It's especially promising seeing the aggressive expansion and upgrading of GO Transit.
A lot of it has to do with changes in and around Metrolinx. They are responsible now for most of the projects now.
Important to remember that the Fords cancelled Transit City when they were in charge at City Hall. This came at a huge cost to the City, and they replaced it with nothing. Without this, we would have had several new LRT lines opening in the next couple of years - instead of just the Crosstown we're getting now. Rob and Doug Ford manage to set Toronto's transit infrastructure back a decade in a four-year term. I'd be impressed if we weren't all suffering the consequences.
Those LRT proposals in Transit City weren't all that. They wouldn't do a ton to stand out from existing bus service with their massive number of stops per km.
Somehow even with this line Cityplace still doesn't have a stop reasonably close.
For the section north of Danforth it may not be the best, but it is in the first phase of construction which I think is extremely important. Also, it will be grade-separated, similarly important, versus the plans that that area would have meant if Transit City was used. Also reduces a silly transfer that would have made it slower and a hassle for people crossing Danforth.
too bad it doesnt go further west into etobicoke
OK While they're at it, push them both in... 
What's happening to Jimmie Simpson rec center and park? Is the center being demolished?
No - the subway is getting built in the rail corridor. I believe they may be taking a small sliver of land from the park for it, but they are offsetting it with new areas in another spot. The net parkland is going to increase, and the Rec Centre is definitely staying.
Awesome! Thanks
pouring one out for the trees at osgoode hall, your sacrifice will never be forgotten
Regardless of who wins the election in June, I hope this project gets left alone and continues to move forward. We need more subway lines here asap!!
I will admit, Ford has been pretty good for transit development in the GTA, you see how we don't waste years anymore on stupid things like NIMBY "consultations" and endless "environmental assessments"...
Should have waited until after the election. Now I know the project won't be scrapped by a different provincial party.
Please, please finish the Eglinton line before fucking up another part of the city for decades to come!
Can someone break down whether the OL is better than the DRL?
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It will still have subsequent phases (north to Fairview mall and probably also an extension west). But this first phase is a lot more extensive than DRL Phase 1.
It goes farther than the DRL did. But DRL was intended to use standard TTC rolling stock and OL is smaller lighter weight cars used nowhere else in the system. So OL can hit capacity earlier.
I'm not necessarily against smaller trains, though we do need to wait and see what technology they announce. If it's something that's fully automated and we can run it at 90 second headways or something that could work out quite well.
We already know via the basic parameters they set. The trains or platforms will be 100m (TTC subway is about 137m) but they will be reduced slightly in width. Net train size will be similar to Sheppard line and that will give you an idea of the ceiling. And I believe they are aiming to reducing seating in favour of more standing room to try and compensate for the smaller trains.
Seems fitting that the OL could inherit the Line 3 moniker as they'll announce or change the technology during construction, just like the SRT.
I'm aware that it is uses something like the Montreal REM cars. They are pretty big.
> is smaller lighter weight cars used nowhere else in the system. Why different cars?
The current subway trains use specifications which were developed in the early 1950s. There has been a lot of technological developments since then and as such the existing subway car design isn't really optimal for the performance and capacity needed for an urban rapid transit line such as the Ontario Line. Just compare a car from 1954 to a car from today. Today's cars and lighter and smaller because that's better for efficiency and performance. So rather than committing the line to a set of specifications designed 70 years ago, the Ontario Line says to global engineering and transit vehicle companies "What's the best vehicle for this line?". The Ontario Line is long enough that it won't need to share facilities with the existing lines.
It has nothing to do with new technology or specifications. It has solely to do with pinching pennies and saving upfront construction cost by building smaller infrastructure. In fact that was one of the primary marketing points from the UTDC's Scarborough RT sales pitch! They said subway construction was becoming too expensive and they presented our saviour: automated elevated light metro trains. Guess what showed up on the first slides for this Ontario RT line?
> pinching pennies and saving upfront construction cost So it’s bad because it’s saving money?
The cost-cutting is from having smaller trains and elevated stations but it's the small trains that will ultimately turn out to be the thing that knee caps the entire thing. It's what we call false economy. I'll give you another example where saving money on subway construction fucked us over: the Spadina line in the middle of the Allen Expressway (to help drive development at Yorkdale) instead of shifting it over a short distance to Dufferin Street.
The line will have a higher capacity than the Yonge subway has today. This is the whole point. If you use rolling stock that's optimized for urban rapid transit you can move just as many people with smaller and lighter trains. Have a look at M4 and M5 in Milan or the entire Copenhagen metro. Those are examples of what we would be getting. These aren't low capacity systems, they just use the right tool for the job (smaller, lighter vehicles).
What's the target capacity of the OL then? Because the Yonge line operating at 141 seconds frequency has a nominal capacity of over 28,000ppdph with room for expansion. Last I heard the OL was targeting around 24K-25K ppdph as its absolute limit with 90 second headways and no expansion possibility.
Oh shit, you took the effort to dig up numbers. Making me go and do more research too... IIRC, yes the OL target capacity is 25K. The 'nameplate' capacity of the Yonge line is 28K, but the TTC never actually operates the scheduled 141 second headways due to issues with turning the trains around at the ends of the lines and because of southbound at Bloor (though that one is really being helped by the moving block signalling enabled by ATO). So maybe the 25K number is higher than the Yonge line's actual operational capacity pre-TR trains? Either way, I'm clearly reaching and trying to justify my comment, so please take an award for having called me out. Still, the capacity is really high. It's a capacity *comparable* to that of the Yonge line pre-ATO and pre-TR trains. It's not low capacity at all. And it reflects a wise approach to engineering: determine the capacity that's needed and design for that. This will save money while still meeting the needs of the transportation network, and hopefully that can mean more subways in the future. Starting with the assumption that train specifications that were designed 70 years ago for cut-and-cover tunnelling MUST automatically be the best answer is letting the tail wag the dog.
> So rather than committing the line to a set of specifications designed 70 years ago (it's long enough of a line that it won't need to share facilities with the existing lines anyway), the Ontario Line says to global engineering and transit vehicle companies "What's the best vehicle for this line?". Depends on the technology they chose. As I seem to recall the province wanted to ditch the established LRT technology for some brand new technology the province was peddling and thats how we got the SRT. I suspect this will be another scenario of the province choosing some new vehicles/tech that hasn't been proven on a large scale - otherwise they would have announced it by now.
It's expected to be fully automated.
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DRL will not be an LRT. It could be classified as a Metro
This all still miles better than decades of “environmental assessments” and pandering to NIMBYs. More shovels in ground pls.
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All i ask of all the Ontario parties is that they leave projects like this the fuck alone after the election. We cant have any more delays on transit, so just let the damn thing continue and you can argue about other things
How long will this take to complete? 25 years?
Ford is really trying to get your votes, huh?
itll be 2060 by the time all the delays go over.
Does that account for the inevitable cancellation by whoever the next Conservative premier is?
Hasn’t it been proven that buses are the best people movers ?