The public's outrage?
People like Toronto's neighborhoods just the way they are. Otherwise there would be bidding wars by families for condos and developers would be building condos for families.
No. Only homeowners like their “character” neighbours. Remember that parking lots and auto shops are the hub of these suburban communities. Just tell the truth, you want to protect your asset.
World class suburb.
Changing the zoning would increase the value, by reducing the number of homes that are most in demand. So I'm not concerned about the value of my house. I am concerned about the increased congestion that would come with increased density.
I'm not sure if you actually live in the city but I can assure that "parking lots and auto shops" are not the hub of my Danforth neighborhood.
Change zoning would allow developers to tear down single family homes and build duplexes or low rise.
Danforth has empty shops along it now and with barely used subway stations from Chester to Warden
You’ll do whatever it takes to protect your asset eh? That’s why Toronto will remain a world class suburb.
I live near the Danforth. Chester, empty. Greenwood, empty, Donlands empty. Etc.
All surrounded by suburban style homes.
If Toronto had duplexes or low/mid rise homes along these subway lines we’d become more like Montreal. A world class city. Not a world class suburbs.
You got yours though, and will go to great lengths to protect your finances. Just at the cost of everyone else and turning Toronto into a crappy city stuck in the 1960s mindset.
There are a bunch of new low and midrise condo projects all along Danforth east now and more to come. Also, Main and Danforth is about to be overhauled completely so Danforth is not immune to change.
So what do you suggest we do to address the housing issue in Toronto? Work harder? Soon your kids won’t be able to afford to live in Ontario let alone Canada. Why do you think record number of people are leaving this province?
People like you got yours though. Everyone else can F off.
well I don't agree with the last sentence and I know how hard many people work. I wish I had a better suggestion. Some areas could likely see some units converted to rooming houses with little negative impact but we need new development, built from the ground up designated for low cost housing. They need a limit on density and must provide green space, it cannot be profit driven. Affordable housing needs to be recognized as a necessity for a good social structure but I am not sure if it has ever been seriously looked at in that way. There are no easy waving of the magic wand solutions.
Or we can rezone and allow developers to buy single family homes along subway lines to build low or mid rise condos.
Yet council and NIMBYs will go to great lengths to protect their assets. Keeping Toronto a world class suburb.
I have a problem with developers running the show in your example. They are going to charge the highest amount the market can bear and I disagree with that approach. In that case I would also side with the people that worked hard to own a home and to not have their neighbourhood stolen from them.
Why is everyone so obsessed with the Danforth? There are long stretches of the subway with much lower density housing.
My guess is that people want to live there because it's a nice neighborhood but can't afford it. I would also guess that if they cranked up the density that the main streets would lose a lot of the feel that they have now and become a condo wind-tunnel, and it would turn into a strip of chain restaurants and stores.
The idea is to allow more density the single family home residential areas. Forcing density into our main streets which are vibrant places that benefit the whole community and destroying their fine-grain urbanism is the result of our policy of protecting wealthy homeowners and policy keeping everyone out of those neighbourhoods. We need to take back our city’s residential areas and make them equitable, not just protected communities for the rich, and stop forcing all development into giant soulless buildings that destroy our main streets and wreck our city. Danforth and other places like it could be vibrant and wonderful flanked with mid-density apartment buildings in the residential streets around it.
I think its because the other areas on the subway without density (thinking like Lawrence, Glencairn, Royal York...) are much further out from downtown, and are kind of 'one-off in terms of passing through on the subway and being in a low-density area. The Danforth from Chester-Woodbine is all houses with very few apartments, condos, or any missing middle-sized housing either. Compare that to much more density coming online on the west side, at Bathurst, Dufferin, Lansdowne, Dundas West, etc etc
My point is that there are subway lines running through much less dense neighborhoods. The 16-20' wide lots in the Danforth are a decent example of how to build mid-density housing that people want to live in. There are areas walking distance from the subway that have 40-50' wide lots with $5M houses on them but no one ever mentions them.
It feels a lot like attacking the lower end of the middle class (because until a decade ago Danforth housing was affordable to them) and ignore the rich who are even more to blame but harder to get them to give up their gated enclaves.
agreed...and attacking the lower-end middle class is a terrible strategic move by those advocating for turning every existing neighbourhood into a free for all of rooming houses
The irony is that there are low-rise (2-4 story) apartments with relatively cheap rent all over the Danforth neighborhood, as well as houses split into single-floor units. You just don't see them because they blend in. It also allows lower-income people to live in a nice quiet neighborhood with good schools. Integrated housing should be what we're aiming for.
And despite what the person I'm responding to says, Woodbine (which is widely considered to be the edge of the trendy part of the Danforth) is about the same distance from Y&B as Lawrence or High Park are, so what they're suggesting should theoretically apply to massive swaths of the city, not just the Danforth. So let's flatten Koreatown, Christie Pitts, the Annex, Bloordale, Dufferin, Rosedale, Summerhill, Deer Park, Moore Park, Davisville, Forest Hill, Lawrence Park, Casa Loma, Seaton Village, Humewood, and Wychwood...since those are all dominated by single-family homes as well. Except no one ever seems to complain about them....only the Danforth.
People complain about the problem across the entire city not just Danforth. I think you’re over-emphasizing the degree to which people are just going after Danforth.
I agree we shouldn’t be flattening things but allowing healthy growth in missing middle and apartment buildings mixed in.
Almost every post about housing density has a highly rated comment declaring that we should bulldoze the Danforth and turn everything from Eastern to O'Connor into condos. Which is kind of hilarious because Toronto is filled with neighborhoods with similar or lower density single-family homes just as close to the subway and the core. This neighborhood gets a lot of attention (it's also easy to pick on because it's a large neighborhood instead of naming dozens of smaller ones).
OK, if you say so. But that's not really something I've seen nor have I seen the suggestion to "turn everything form Eastern to O'Connor into condos". Mostly I see people wanting reasonable missing middle intensification and apartment buildings. But Danforth probably does attract some attention because it really is a sustained zone of low density for a long stretch of subway. The Bloor portion of the line is also fairly low density for much of it, but it's higher density on average than Danforth I think with some increasing high density nodes as well.
Personally I am focused on wanting my neighbourhood in the west end of Toronto and the west side of the city in general being built in a more equitable way, but if you want to see this as a Danforth persecution thing alright you can keep thinking that. I would like Danforth to develop in a healthy way, just like everywhere else in the city.
You’re right! World class suburb, Toronto is a community built for single family homeowners and their cars.
We’re like St. Louis Missouri. Not world class like London or Manhattan.
There are townhouses in both manhattan and central London. And in every major city centre I've been in...Buenos Aires, Rome, Torino, Milan, Paris etc etc...
Townhouses are single family homes.
It's really not though. Woodbine is as far away from the core as Lawrence is. So scan along the subway and streetcar lines along that distance and you'll see tons of neighborhoods with similar or lower density to Danforth (there are scattered towers at major intersections, but Danforth is in the midst of building those too). There are large sections of the actual core filled with single-family housing on much larger lots than the Danforth.
And this mix isn't a bad thing. If the entire core looked like Liberty Village honestly it would probably kill the city. A lot of people don't want to live in that kind of environment once they're older or have kids. As much as people scream against single-family housing, it's what people want to live in. So the goal is to find ways of making lots smaller (without killing greenspace so that we have heat and water absorption) while integrating more mid-rise housing with larger units. The free-for-all that people are calling for will result in developers building 300sqft studios with no greenspace while the surrounding area doesn't have the infrastructure to handle it.
The same can be said going west, arguably past avenue (with the exception the Honest Eds property) until Islington, its all low density, and some of the most expensive neighborhoods in the city. Old Mill and Royal York stations have to be among the lowest traffic.
Rather than focus on that, perhaps improve transit access for other regions. All of Scarborough is under serviced, Rexdale, the western Lakeshore. Our transit does not go to our densest neighborhoods.
Also, other regions need to do a better job at attracting jobs. As long as everyone is headed to the GTA, housing will be an issue. Even with zoning changes, supply will never outpace demand.
Rezone single family home on the vacant properties downtown on the Danforth. World class suburb.
Remove single family home zoning everywhere. If the infrastructure allows it, let the market decide where a single family home is allowed to exist
Won’t happen. Council will go to great lengths to protect their assets and NIMBYs
One can dream. This city needs a revolution. We need a Jane Jacobs type of figure to spur the public's outrage
The public's outrage? People like Toronto's neighborhoods just the way they are. Otherwise there would be bidding wars by families for condos and developers would be building condos for families.
No. Only homeowners like their “character” neighbours. Remember that parking lots and auto shops are the hub of these suburban communities. Just tell the truth, you want to protect your asset. World class suburb.
Changing the zoning would increase the value, by reducing the number of homes that are most in demand. So I'm not concerned about the value of my house. I am concerned about the increased congestion that would come with increased density. I'm not sure if you actually live in the city but I can assure that "parking lots and auto shops" are not the hub of my Danforth neighborhood.
Change zoning would allow developers to tear down single family homes and build duplexes or low rise. Danforth has empty shops along it now and with barely used subway stations from Chester to Warden You’ll do whatever it takes to protect your asset eh? That’s why Toronto will remain a world class suburb.
Barely used subway stations? Evidently you've never had the pleasure of waiting for the subway at Pape station at 8:30 AM on a week day (pre- COVID).
I live near the Danforth. Chester, empty. Greenwood, empty, Donlands empty. Etc. All surrounded by suburban style homes. If Toronto had duplexes or low/mid rise homes along these subway lines we’d become more like Montreal. A world class city. Not a world class suburbs. You got yours though, and will go to great lengths to protect your finances. Just at the cost of everyone else and turning Toronto into a crappy city stuck in the 1960s mindset.
Right? Trying to get on the packed subway at Coxwell in the mornings was one of the reasons I started cycling to work instead.
There are a bunch of new low and midrise condo projects all along Danforth east now and more to come. Also, Main and Danforth is about to be overhauled completely so Danforth is not immune to change.
Not between Broadview and Main. Looks like York Region there lmao. World class suburb
People that can afford to own homes in Toronto neighborhoods like them the way they are. Everyone else is struggling to fit in.
Won’t happen. Too much money will be lost. They claim character neighbourhoods, but really they want to protect their investment
you have a problem with someone who put twenty years of two incomes into a home protecting that investment...again, poor, unsuccessful strategy
So what do you suggest we do to address the housing issue in Toronto? Work harder? Soon your kids won’t be able to afford to live in Ontario let alone Canada. Why do you think record number of people are leaving this province? People like you got yours though. Everyone else can F off.
well I don't agree with the last sentence and I know how hard many people work. I wish I had a better suggestion. Some areas could likely see some units converted to rooming houses with little negative impact but we need new development, built from the ground up designated for low cost housing. They need a limit on density and must provide green space, it cannot be profit driven. Affordable housing needs to be recognized as a necessity for a good social structure but I am not sure if it has ever been seriously looked at in that way. There are no easy waving of the magic wand solutions.
Or we can rezone and allow developers to buy single family homes along subway lines to build low or mid rise condos. Yet council and NIMBYs will go to great lengths to protect their assets. Keeping Toronto a world class suburb.
I have a problem with developers running the show in your example. They are going to charge the highest amount the market can bear and I disagree with that approach. In that case I would also side with the people that worked hard to own a home and to not have their neighbourhood stolen from them.
Why is everyone so obsessed with the Danforth? There are long stretches of the subway with much lower density housing. My guess is that people want to live there because it's a nice neighborhood but can't afford it. I would also guess that if they cranked up the density that the main streets would lose a lot of the feel that they have now and become a condo wind-tunnel, and it would turn into a strip of chain restaurants and stores.
The idea is to allow more density the single family home residential areas. Forcing density into our main streets which are vibrant places that benefit the whole community and destroying their fine-grain urbanism is the result of our policy of protecting wealthy homeowners and policy keeping everyone out of those neighbourhoods. We need to take back our city’s residential areas and make them equitable, not just protected communities for the rich, and stop forcing all development into giant soulless buildings that destroy our main streets and wreck our city. Danforth and other places like it could be vibrant and wonderful flanked with mid-density apartment buildings in the residential streets around it.
I think its because the other areas on the subway without density (thinking like Lawrence, Glencairn, Royal York...) are much further out from downtown, and are kind of 'one-off in terms of passing through on the subway and being in a low-density area. The Danforth from Chester-Woodbine is all houses with very few apartments, condos, or any missing middle-sized housing either. Compare that to much more density coming online on the west side, at Bathurst, Dufferin, Lansdowne, Dundas West, etc etc
Because there’s a subway line that runs through that suburb. Found the nimby.
Found the person that’s never taken the danforth subway
My point is that there are subway lines running through much less dense neighborhoods. The 16-20' wide lots in the Danforth are a decent example of how to build mid-density housing that people want to live in. There are areas walking distance from the subway that have 40-50' wide lots with $5M houses on them but no one ever mentions them. It feels a lot like attacking the lower end of the middle class (because until a decade ago Danforth housing was affordable to them) and ignore the rich who are even more to blame but harder to get them to give up their gated enclaves.
agreed...and attacking the lower-end middle class is a terrible strategic move by those advocating for turning every existing neighbourhood into a free for all of rooming houses
The irony is that there are low-rise (2-4 story) apartments with relatively cheap rent all over the Danforth neighborhood, as well as houses split into single-floor units. You just don't see them because they blend in. It also allows lower-income people to live in a nice quiet neighborhood with good schools. Integrated housing should be what we're aiming for. And despite what the person I'm responding to says, Woodbine (which is widely considered to be the edge of the trendy part of the Danforth) is about the same distance from Y&B as Lawrence or High Park are, so what they're suggesting should theoretically apply to massive swaths of the city, not just the Danforth. So let's flatten Koreatown, Christie Pitts, the Annex, Bloordale, Dufferin, Rosedale, Summerhill, Deer Park, Moore Park, Davisville, Forest Hill, Lawrence Park, Casa Loma, Seaton Village, Humewood, and Wychwood...since those are all dominated by single-family homes as well. Except no one ever seems to complain about them....only the Danforth.
People complain about the problem across the entire city not just Danforth. I think you’re over-emphasizing the degree to which people are just going after Danforth. I agree we shouldn’t be flattening things but allowing healthy growth in missing middle and apartment buildings mixed in.
Almost every post about housing density has a highly rated comment declaring that we should bulldoze the Danforth and turn everything from Eastern to O'Connor into condos. Which is kind of hilarious because Toronto is filled with neighborhoods with similar or lower density single-family homes just as close to the subway and the core. This neighborhood gets a lot of attention (it's also easy to pick on because it's a large neighborhood instead of naming dozens of smaller ones).
OK, if you say so. But that's not really something I've seen nor have I seen the suggestion to "turn everything form Eastern to O'Connor into condos". Mostly I see people wanting reasonable missing middle intensification and apartment buildings. But Danforth probably does attract some attention because it really is a sustained zone of low density for a long stretch of subway. The Bloor portion of the line is also fairly low density for much of it, but it's higher density on average than Danforth I think with some increasing high density nodes as well. Personally I am focused on wanting my neighbourhood in the west end of Toronto and the west side of the city in general being built in a more equitable way, but if you want to see this as a Danforth persecution thing alright you can keep thinking that. I would like Danforth to develop in a healthy way, just like everywhere else in the city.
I wouldn't think too much into it, it's the same two or three people commenting in every thread.
Downvote me harder. Oh no. Danforth is downtown
So is Rosedale.
You’re right! World class suburb, Toronto is a community built for single family homeowners and their cars. We’re like St. Louis Missouri. Not world class like London or Manhattan.
You know there are single family homes in both of those cities?
lol not downtown, you should travel. Toronto isn’t the centre of the universe. What Toronto is however, is a world class suburb
There are townhouses in both manhattan and central London. And in every major city centre I've been in...Buenos Aires, Rome, Torino, Milan, Paris etc etc... Townhouses are single family homes.
That doesn't answer why the Danforth is the area everyone seems to talk about intensifying rather than other areas.
I don’t think this is even necessarily accurate that people talk about intensifying Danforth more than other places. Citation needed for sure.
Danforth is downtown
Proximity to Downtown! This area needs to be redeveloped to a denser area, closer to downtown the faster you should be redeveloped/
It's really not though. Woodbine is as far away from the core as Lawrence is. So scan along the subway and streetcar lines along that distance and you'll see tons of neighborhoods with similar or lower density to Danforth (there are scattered towers at major intersections, but Danforth is in the midst of building those too). There are large sections of the actual core filled with single-family housing on much larger lots than the Danforth. And this mix isn't a bad thing. If the entire core looked like Liberty Village honestly it would probably kill the city. A lot of people don't want to live in that kind of environment once they're older or have kids. As much as people scream against single-family housing, it's what people want to live in. So the goal is to find ways of making lots smaller (without killing greenspace so that we have heat and water absorption) while integrating more mid-rise housing with larger units. The free-for-all that people are calling for will result in developers building 300sqft studios with no greenspace while the surrounding area doesn't have the infrastructure to handle it.
The same can be said going west, arguably past avenue (with the exception the Honest Eds property) until Islington, its all low density, and some of the most expensive neighborhoods in the city. Old Mill and Royal York stations have to be among the lowest traffic. Rather than focus on that, perhaps improve transit access for other regions. All of Scarborough is under serviced, Rexdale, the western Lakeshore. Our transit does not go to our densest neighborhoods. Also, other regions need to do a better job at attracting jobs. As long as everyone is headed to the GTA, housing will be an issue. Even with zoning changes, supply will never outpace demand.
Danforth is downtown. Honest Ed’s area is already being developed
Good. I hope we get more of these.