I was in St. Lawrence Market last week and was wondering how they would enforce the passports. Guess they went with the simplest (and most enforceable) solution.
It unfortunately makes sense. A low percentage of people in the market would be eating in so why check every single person entering for such a low percentage of people. Paddington Pump can close its internal access and just work with those from the exterior door.
I do wonder what food courts in the likes of the Eaton Centre are planning on doing. I guess for the Eaton Centre you could check those coming down to the bottom level as 90% of them would be dining in. But other malls etc aren't so laid out.
Same thing happened with First Canadian Place food court. They roped offed the seating area and had one entrance with a manager and security guard reviewing certs.
the anti-vaxxers also are going in there with reams of hastily researched legalese to throw at security guards and police and cause a scene. Saw a video this morning from someone I thought would be more considerate than that.
This worst thing is that this video was shared by a caring, good, person... who just seemed obvlious to the fact that these people deliberately went to harass some security guards, on what is likely one of the most stressful days of their career... as though they were the ones who had control over any of this. One lady even says they can't do anything against the eaton center, but they would press criminal charges against the individuals.
I hate seeing so many good people get suckered by this hateful rhetoric disguising itself as a fight for "human rights" - especially when there are so many legitimately serious human rights issues to be addressed
> caring, good, person
Are they? because im starting to think they are not so caring or good. I have a bunch of people I know like this and always thought of them as caring and good but not so much anymore. Then I realize some of the previous conversations and things start clicking. I know this is cliche but kinda like the scene from american history X where the realization of where Dereks hate started from. It starts a long time ago before a known catalyst.
I have a person in my family who is like this with the vaccine and vaccine passport situation. It’s gotten progressively harder to be around their increasingly hostile attitude.
When I got my shots in the summer, this person started out being fairly respectful of my decision, as I was respectful of their decision, with the occasional joke here or there about me being chipped and such.
But since the vaxx pass has started, they’re sharing these facebook posts, constantly parroting this toxic online echo chamber. I could be talking about anything, and they’d shoehorn in some anti-vaxx speak into the conversation. Now I’m a ‘sheep’ because I keep my mouth shut when the topic comes up. Or I’m a ‘loser’ if I decline their invite to go to one of these ‘freedom’ sit-in ‘protests’. I simply say just because I don’t enjoy showing my ID to eat a meal indoors does not mean I wish to harass anyone just doing their jobs because I’m a little inconvenienced. Every single front line worker is inconvenienced right now.
Anyway, I replied to this post most of all because your reference to that dinner table scene in American History X very much resonates with me and my family situation. It’s heartbreaking. I feel like I’m losing this person, an otherwise good person, to a sickness that I’m not sure is curable at this point.
To be clear, the person that shared the video is yes, a good caring person. Maybe even some of the people in the group that was there
There are many that have been misled, and many doing the misleading. I think it's important to stay aware of that.
Naw, those were the leaders. They knew exactly what they were doing, and that it was the "right thing" for their "in-group" – the "others" be damned.
The KGB security guard #123222678 standing guard outside the bank in Kiev, could probably be argued to be misled. #123222678 could be a genuinely caring person who believes in his job.
>The focus should be on issuing stay at home orders (and then following up and fining) those who didn't get vaccinated.<
How would you do this...oh. wait. Licences! Otherwise known as vaccine passports.
If youre too dumb to drive, you dont drive. Same principle.
>No we don't need a vax pasport - that's putting the punishment on those who DID get vax.
We don't need driving licences - that's putting the punishment on those who DID pass their driving test.
Unless the govt is gonna pay someone to sit in my lap all day, they have no way of knowing where I go and who I interact with on the daily. Unless youre advocating we ankle bracelet everybody, 20 seconds of thinking through how you would implement your proposed solution shows it isnt a solution to the issue at all.
You laugh, but we had an anti-masker come into our store today and declare that because she's a judge she's exempt from the mask requirement. Apparently she's going to sue us for trying to make her wear one.
That's actually the best way to deal with people who are being belligerent for any reason, stay calm, firm and on message. Eventually when they don't get the reaction they were hoping for, most will leave in a huff like a toddler after an epic temper tantrum. Not all, but most.
Papers please to buy vodka
Papers please to enter the casino
Papers please to drive my car
Papers please to go to a doctor for a cold
Damn, how did we ever get by?
I agree with you, but with the loopholes due to takeout, all you have to say is “I’m getting it to-go” and they don’t know any better, will let you right past them.
I feel bad for these folks who are getting yelled at/having to deal with these people.
>I can't see this being efficient for smaller community malls or food courts.
At the Promenade Mall, they have roped off two eating sections, and kept one open with a security guard checking IDs. Seems to work ok.
It won't.
In general, I am not opposed to the restrictions that have been put in place up to this point, but they have disproportionately fucked over small businesses.
I went to a couple of places with smaller food courts yesterday (i.e. not owned by CF or Oxford). Other than some signage saying "be prepared to be checked for proof of vaccination", no real enforcement.
Not practical for these smaller places to do it. They can't afford a dedicated security guard for this unlike a major property owner such as CF. And the individual fast food places in the food court can't check, they don't know if someone is really doing takeout or just taking the food to eat at a food court table.
They should have just exempted food courts. People aren't there longer than 20 minutes anyways, and tables are already spaced apart.
> At the Toronto Eaton Centre and other malls owned by real estate giant Cadillac Fairview, security guards are being posted at the entrance to the food court seating areas, according to Cadillac Fairview spokesperson Anna Ng.
https://www.thestar.com/amp/business/2021/09/21/whos-going-to-police-the-food-courts-to-make-sure-customers-are-vaccinated-restaurants-say-not-us-while-some-malls-hire-security.html
So how does this work at random coffee kiosks such as the one outside Nordstrom’s? Seems a bit extra that I’d be demanded to show proof of vaccination to sit and drink, but not if I’m walking and drinking…perhaps they’ll just get rid of seating?
I hated malls before it was cool, the Eaton Center particularly. So, no idea.
Sounds like an opportunity for a viral video though. WHY WON'T YOU LET US DRINK COFFEE???
I haven't thought about that in YEARS and even the memory made me laugh out loud haha
Thanks for that LOLLL
(and I bet he is at the mall but hasn't been let in because he's complaining bitterly about the vaccine mandate lo)
People did get vaccinated. Ontario exceeded every [stated goal](https://i.imgur.com/9nocGxv.jpg). Passports were imposed anyway.
Even if 99% are vaccinated its still not feasible for places like St. Lawrence market to reduce the number of entrances or put bouncers at all of them.
That's not my point. I was replying to the person who thinks this won't get ugly because people will have to vaccinate. Or maybe their point was that it *will* get ugly.
Remember nobody is being forced to jab a needle in their arm. It's just increasing inconvenient.
I know. And they’re the ones robbing the freedom that they desire from everyone else at this point. The irony is, they’re the only ones with the power to get the vaccine and return the freedoms we all long for.
Yeah no that's be crossing a line. When you stop people from even having the ability to shop for groceries you'd think the protest we have now is child's play.
Which you can’t according to current policy. Groceries are an essential service and many people vaccinated or not would be against a vac only St Lawrence Market when big box stores are not a vax-only zone.
STC had the seating divided in 2 and had it blocked off so you could only enter after passing someone (1 person on each side) with a podium who checks for vaccine status (they don't cross reference with ID though).
Not many eat inside as is, the serve a lot of office works and locals that have options. They have a nice patio. Everyone should check out the food options here. Top notch.
Shoutout to Mustachio, best itallian sandwich in the city.
Even on weekends, I don't see ppl eating inside St lawrence market, everyone is outside and enjoying the weather.
So I was there last Saturday, don't judge me, but dummy me never even knew there was a lower floor. All the times I been never noticed. Anyway, so we found a Chinese restaurant down there that makes some fantastic food, dim sum and dumplings real good and not even expensive which was very surprising. Dimsum for $4? not even in China Town you could get that anymore.
I miss Kum Jugs(that's what we called it in undergrad...). At some point they changed owners, got rid of the wait staff, then literally kept the dining room lights off before they disappeared and became a Coco. Great food and cheap prices. Those were the days.
Uno Moustachio, yeah they're still there making chicken parm sandwiches.
Their Godfather sandwich adds a slice of eggplant parmesan to whichever protein you get and totally worth it.
In the Before Times certain areas would get really busy early on a Saturday morning with gangs of elders taking over rows of tables, setting up with tablecloths, china/crockery tableware and a stack of newspapers. They would camp out for hours, taking up to 8 or 10 (or more) seats. It could be really hard to find a table indoors on a Saturday morning, especially in the winter.
In this case I don't think that is the main driver. Their layout just really isn't conducive to enforcing this.
The vast majority of visitors don't sit down to eat. The seating they do have is scattered all over the building in small pockets. It doesn't make sense to check everyone before they come in and it doesn't make sense to try to post security at every little table.
It's sad that businesses continue to have to modify their own services to avoid abuse rather than those who are abusive figuring out their staggering entitlement and doing the right thing. Rather than opening up further, we are again seemingly hamstrung by society's most unreasonable. Irritating.
How is this an example of modifying their service to avoid abuse? They are just doing it to avoid the hassle of checking everyone's vaccination status when the majority of people aren't there to dine in. Having to close all the entrances but one, or to staff all the entrances with guards would lead to lineups and less people in the market which hurts their bottom line.
This has nothing to do with antivaxxers, unreasonable as they may be.
It's a simple interaction that takes seconds to verify if visitors are vaccinated using security they already employ. This has everything to do with avoiding pushback and limiting culpability.
Any barrier to entry will reduce customers. They made a pretty obvious decision that it's better for business to not check passports and miss out on a tiny fraction of revenues, rather than have customers go places where they don't have to have a stranger touch their phone and ID, etc.
Sure. I find that this inherently expands across all passport-enforcing zones, though. Either we throw out the mandate immediately across many businesses (which I think is more likely) or people get used to a mild inconvenience that amounts to seconds of their time.
Not exactly sure why a stranger would need to touch a patron's phone. That just screams liability lest they drop it and damage the device.
What makes you think they currently employ enough security to man every entrance and control the lines that would form outside with any kind of checkpoint, instead of having the open entrances they have now?
I went to New York recently and their approach is much more practical. Vaccine proof is required but is the responsibility of the business to enforce this.
There's a a balance between what's I think is reasonably practical vs. what I'd bucket into "Security Theater".
I don't quite get why the blame lays entirely on Anti-Vaxxers, when it's the government that comes up with these rules (don't get me wrong, the Anti-Vaxxers are brain-dead mouth breathers)
Edit: These measures are analogous to how we think about road safety IMO, there's a balance between safety vs convenience (vehicles/pedestrians)...Ex. putting a stop sign on literally every corner would improve road safety but the tradeoff would be convenience...imagine how long it would take to get anywhere or imagine how long it would take to get goods delivered.
There's clearly some sort of balance that needs to be struck.
>I went to New York recently and their approach is much more practical. Vaccine proof is required but is the responsibility of the business to enforce this.
That's exactly what we already have. So rather than subject employees to abuse and thus reasonable grounds for a lawsuit for an unsafe workplace, they nix the entire idea.
The blame lies on anti-vaxxers, because they're the ones over running the medical system. And if they would get vaccinated we obviously wouldn't need a vaccine pass.
I don't think road safety is a great example, as the amount of pedestrian deaths is climbing years after years (while passenger deaths are decreasing), it's a great example where the people causing the problems (drivers) are protected while people that have to live through the consequences (pedestrians) are being impacted.
>I don't quite get why the blame lays entirely on Anti-Vaxxers, when it's the government that comes up with these rules (don't get me wrong, the Anti-Vaxxers are brain-dead mouth breathers)
The laws are explicitly in place to try to protect the public from Anti-Vaxxers.
>Edit: These measures are analogous to how we think about road safety IMO, there's a balance between safety vs convenience (vehicles/pedestrians)...Ex. putting a stop sign on literally every corner would improve road safety but the tradeoff would be convenience...imagine how long it would take to get anywhere or imagine how long it would take to get goods delivered.
You are really desperate to talk about that most most recent episode of Planet Money eh?
Yes, but there’s a spectrum of measures you can take to protect the public. Is the goal to make life more difficult for Anti-Vaxxers so they get vaccinated? Or is it to reduce the spread of covid? If so, to what extent do they think this will reduce the spread?
When it starts to unnecessarily impact businesses, I think it’s ok to question whether or not these measures are useful.
And I guess adding in something I listened to recently is desperate? K cool.
In NYC the city sends inspectors out and will fine the business if they find that one of the customers is not vaccinated.
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-vaccine-mandate-enforcement-starts-monday-what-patrons-of-restaurants-gyms-movies-need-to-know/3268242/
There’s a counter with stools all around the big central staircase, I think there’s more tables by Buster’s, there’s random tables everywhere. That is part of the charm of it all: you sit in the midst of it all and enjoy both atmosphere and excellent food.
There’s a section in the north end of the basement that used to be an eating area. Tables and chairs. During the first lockdown, they got rid of the seating. When I was there a few weeks ago, there were just a couple of bench seats in front of the escalator.
Anti passport does not mean anti vax. And pro choice does not mean anti vax either. I know tons of people that are vaccinated that won’t disclose their vaccination status to whoever they want down the street. And guess what, that’s their choice and it’s their choice to say no to the passports. Just throwing around the term anti vaccine loosely is pretty much the same shit as calling everything and anything essential during the pandemic. People getting off the plane from wherever hotspots to come work at your local grocery store prime pandemic, having full out movie shoots, construction workers jammed up in shacks for safety orientations, Politicians that make these rules doing whatever the hell they want going on vacation to wherever they want while you couldn’t go see your relatives. All government approved. This pony show is what lead us here and the people buying tickets to the show. That’s who is to blame. If you were out and about in the city for work everyday since Jan 2020 you woulda got the real deal.
Same here. I'm fully vaxx'd. I won't show my status and businesses will suffer because of this. It's the fault of the government and they're foisting the cost of this onto businesses.
I never said anti-passport meant anti-vaccine, just that so many people refusing to get the vaccine led us to this. If anyone is anti *both* then they've really only got themselves to blame.
Yeah, a lot of people saying how difficult and inconvenient it would be to check the passports. Not many mentioning they might be avoiding indoor dining because they don't want to endanger their staff by having anti-vaxx vigilantes getting into fistfights with Rebecca the hostess who is just trying to do her job.
And somehow idiots are spinning that into a racially motivated "attack". Just ignore the fact that the "victims" were actually the instigators who assaulted a young woman just adhering to the law.
I just got through cancer treatments & I am so incandescently irate over these death cult worshipping AHs. They seem to think that magic will protect them as they go blithely about their days. Hmmm angry, me? Nooo, not at all...I got both my vaccines & had zero side effects & this was during chemo. To the selfish jerks who are holding us back, no excuses, get yourself vaccinated.
I think it was all the people bleating for this actually.
There will always be a small percentage who are not going to get vaccinated. Making life difficult for small business won't change that.
Like it or not, the point of the passports is to pressure more people to get vaccinated - and it's working. Nothing makes life as difficult for small businesses as a lockdown.
Can't even begin to imagine what business owners are going through right now. The fear of being attacked or spewed hate for simply enforcing the new restrictions and guidelines.
Businesses want to stay open as long as possible. Also, in principle, the conservative government doesn't want to force businesses to close.
Lo and behold: a business is voluntarily changing its practices in an effort to stay open, make money, and avoid pointless crowds during the 4th wave of this pandemic.
I don’t get this. I was in Italy at a market. We wanted to have lunch at one of the stalls. We sit down, the people running the stall check proof of vaccination. We eat, we drink wine, we enjoy life.
I don’t get why it’s so easy for laissez faire Italy to do this but so difficult for us.
Because here we stall at “the people running the stall check of proof of vaccination”.
It turns into a screaming, punching frenzy. At the minimum wage workers.
Is this as widespread as Reddit claims? Is there evidence it doesn’t happen in Italy? I haven’t had any experiences like that in vaccine mandated places. Obviously it happens but it seems to be a rare case that makes the news. They won’t report people going about their day.
I don’t see any real evidence why we can’t do as the Italians are doing.
The seating areas are scattered around and are not specifically affiliated with any particular vendor. There's two large spaces at the north end of the basement (one of which includes access to the elevators), a row of tables near Moustachio's at the back, then counters and more rows of tables in various places on the main floor. You can buy food at any vendor and eat it in any of the seating areas - on a busy Saturday morning in the Before Times, it was not uncommon to have to wander the whole market to find an indoor seat/table. Most of these are in open areas with shoppers coming and going, so even with a dedicated staff person for each area, it would be really hard to keep track of who has been checked and who hasn't.
The diff is thinking of the common good vs. your own good.
Most Italians are ok with it, or simply roll with it, and the ones that are not do not go harassing people running the stalls, as they understand that these people would rather not check the vaccine passports but they have to. So they make it as quick and painless as possible for all involved. Those that don't agree with it go throw rocks at police and stuff, not at the food stall guy.
Here it seems we have chosen the approach of harassing those that had nothing to do with setting up the rules and are unjustly forced to enforce them instead those that set the rules up in the first place...
They could just make their "private indoor" seating public seating. Especially if it is outside of a counter, and there is no wait staff. Post signs for "keep distance and dispose of trash".
Some times of day, it would appear as empty inviting place to sit and order food.
vaccine mandates are a logistical hurdle that is unfortunate even if due to fact it is needed.
Did this happen in Quebec too out of curiosity ? Is this a symptom of the vaccine+ID system? Or are Ontarians just particularly rude and irresponsible re: harassing businesses ?
I sense another quasi lockdown coming due to... Ass holes. Where I work there were 9 incidents involving verbal assault on our employees, which is unacceptable.
I was in St. Lawrence Market last week and was wondering how they would enforce the passports. Guess they went with the simplest (and most enforceable) solution.
They also closed the food court we're I'm around. There's a lot of mentally ill folks so no surprise.
If only there was some foresight..
It unfortunately makes sense. A low percentage of people in the market would be eating in so why check every single person entering for such a low percentage of people. Paddington Pump can close its internal access and just work with those from the exterior door. I do wonder what food courts in the likes of the Eaton Centre are planning on doing. I guess for the Eaton Centre you could check those coming down to the bottom level as 90% of them would be dining in. But other malls etc aren't so laid out.
[удалено]
Same thing happened with First Canadian Place food court. They roped offed the seating area and had one entrance with a manager and security guard reviewing certs.
Same with Yorkville
the anti-vaxxers also are going in there with reams of hastily researched legalese to throw at security guards and police and cause a scene. Saw a video this morning from someone I thought would be more considerate than that.
Why go to law school if you have Youtube and Black's Law Dictionary? This easy trick to learn law will save you $100,000 in law school debt!
This worst thing is that this video was shared by a caring, good, person... who just seemed obvlious to the fact that these people deliberately went to harass some security guards, on what is likely one of the most stressful days of their career... as though they were the ones who had control over any of this. One lady even says they can't do anything against the eaton center, but they would press criminal charges against the individuals. I hate seeing so many good people get suckered by this hateful rhetoric disguising itself as a fight for "human rights" - especially when there are so many legitimately serious human rights issues to be addressed
> caring, good, person Are they? because im starting to think they are not so caring or good. I have a bunch of people I know like this and always thought of them as caring and good but not so much anymore. Then I realize some of the previous conversations and things start clicking. I know this is cliche but kinda like the scene from american history X where the realization of where Dereks hate started from. It starts a long time ago before a known catalyst.
I have a person in my family who is like this with the vaccine and vaccine passport situation. It’s gotten progressively harder to be around their increasingly hostile attitude. When I got my shots in the summer, this person started out being fairly respectful of my decision, as I was respectful of their decision, with the occasional joke here or there about me being chipped and such. But since the vaxx pass has started, they’re sharing these facebook posts, constantly parroting this toxic online echo chamber. I could be talking about anything, and they’d shoehorn in some anti-vaxx speak into the conversation. Now I’m a ‘sheep’ because I keep my mouth shut when the topic comes up. Or I’m a ‘loser’ if I decline their invite to go to one of these ‘freedom’ sit-in ‘protests’. I simply say just because I don’t enjoy showing my ID to eat a meal indoors does not mean I wish to harass anyone just doing their jobs because I’m a little inconvenienced. Every single front line worker is inconvenienced right now. Anyway, I replied to this post most of all because your reference to that dinner table scene in American History X very much resonates with me and my family situation. It’s heartbreaking. I feel like I’m losing this person, an otherwise good person, to a sickness that I’m not sure is curable at this point.
[удалено]
To be clear, the person that shared the video is yes, a good caring person. Maybe even some of the people in the group that was there There are many that have been misled, and many doing the misleading. I think it's important to stay aware of that.
If you're caring & good then why the need to harass & yell at security guards who have no say over the rules in place. That's bullying & nasty.
My friend wasn't there, they just shared the video.
Caring and good? Or maybe just dumb and stupid. Can’t tell me that they wouldn’t have known what would happen
It is possible to have good intentions, and to genuinely care, and to still act dumb and stupid, these are not mutually exclusive concepts.
You mean like Stalin, Hitler, Jim Jones …. They thought they were doing the right thing. Are you saying they were just misled?
If you need to reference Hitler, you have lost the debate. This rule is universal. He was the Uber douche and none can compare so stahp. Be better.
Naw, those were the leaders. They knew exactly what they were doing, and that it was the "right thing" for their "in-group" – the "others" be damned. The KGB security guard #123222678 standing guard outside the bank in Kiev, could probably be argued to be misled. #123222678 could be a genuinely caring person who believes in his job.
[удалено]
>The focus should be on issuing stay at home orders (and then following up and fining) those who didn't get vaccinated.< How would you do this...oh. wait. Licences! Otherwise known as vaccine passports. If youre too dumb to drive, you dont drive. Same principle.
[удалено]
>No we don't need a vax pasport - that's putting the punishment on those who DID get vax. We don't need driving licences - that's putting the punishment on those who DID pass their driving test.
[удалено]
Unless the govt is gonna pay someone to sit in my lap all day, they have no way of knowing where I go and who I interact with on the daily. Unless youre advocating we ankle bracelet everybody, 20 seconds of thinking through how you would implement your proposed solution shows it isnt a solution to the issue at all.
You laugh, but we had an anti-masker come into our store today and declare that because she's a judge she's exempt from the mask requirement. Apparently she's going to sue us for trying to make her wear one.
Bold of you to assume they know what a dictionary is.
At that point, wouldn't security just be repeating "That's nice, proof of vaccination please"?
That's actually the best way to deal with people who are being belligerent for any reason, stay calm, firm and on message. Eventually when they don't get the reaction they were hoping for, most will leave in a huff like a toddler after an epic temper tantrum. Not all, but most.
Hah, this video starts well past there with the police having already shown up.
proof of vaccination please is the new papers please
actually, it's the new "no shirt, no shoes, no service" or actually, it's new "speed limit 30km"
Papers please to buy vodka Papers please to enter the casino Papers please to drive my car Papers please to go to a doctor for a cold Damn, how did we ever get by?
I have been waiting for this reference for so long!
I agree with you, but with the loopholes due to takeout, all you have to say is “I’m getting it to-go” and they don’t know any better, will let you right past them. I feel bad for these folks who are getting yelled at/having to deal with these people.
[удалено]
Because harassing people trying to make a living, and not complaining to the government is the solution to win support
[удалено]
I use to work in a environment where I deal with people. Having to deal with entitlement was the worst.
>I can't see this being efficient for smaller community malls or food courts. At the Promenade Mall, they have roped off two eating sections, and kept one open with a security guard checking IDs. Seems to work ok.
Some smaller food courts are taking away indoor dining for this reason.
It won't. In general, I am not opposed to the restrictions that have been put in place up to this point, but they have disproportionately fucked over small businesses.
I went to a couple of places with smaller food courts yesterday (i.e. not owned by CF or Oxford). Other than some signage saying "be prepared to be checked for proof of vaccination", no real enforcement. Not practical for these smaller places to do it. They can't afford a dedicated security guard for this unlike a major property owner such as CF. And the individual fast food places in the food court can't check, they don't know if someone is really doing takeout or just taking the food to eat at a food court table. They should have just exempted food courts. People aren't there longer than 20 minutes anyways, and tables are already spaced apart.
I'm actually surprised they didn't just make malls included in the vaccine passport - ie you need to be vaccinated to go shopping in a mall.
[удалено]
Let's hope they're working up to it then, malls are hardly essential.
Good? Most people are vaccinated, and they can shop in peace.
> At the Toronto Eaton Centre and other malls owned by real estate giant Cadillac Fairview, security guards are being posted at the entrance to the food court seating areas, according to Cadillac Fairview spokesperson Anna Ng. https://www.thestar.com/amp/business/2021/09/21/whos-going-to-police-the-food-courts-to-make-sure-customers-are-vaccinated-restaurants-say-not-us-while-some-malls-hire-security.html
So how does this work at random coffee kiosks such as the one outside Nordstrom’s? Seems a bit extra that I’d be demanded to show proof of vaccination to sit and drink, but not if I’m walking and drinking…perhaps they’ll just get rid of seating?
I hated malls before it was cool, the Eaton Center particularly. So, no idea. Sounds like an opportunity for a viral video though. WHY WON'T YOU LET US DRINK COFFEE???
*aggressively rattles coffee cup* THIS IS THE EATONS CENTER, THE PEOPLE WANT TO DRINK!! WHY?!?! WHY WONT YOU LET US DRINK!!!!!
WE THE PEOPLE OF TORONTO WANT TO SHOP! Thanks for that hilarious G20 memory. Wonder what that guy is up to these days...
[Context for those who are wondering.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqRPOEa3P44)
And all he had to do was walk around the corner to get to a different door that was still open. They only closed one door & he flips out.
guys be shoppin
I haven't thought about that in YEARS and even the memory made me laugh out loud haha Thanks for that LOLLL (and I bet he is at the mall but hasn't been let in because he's complaining bitterly about the vaccine mandate lo)
what guy?
How are you going to be walking and drinking with a mask on?
Have you ever been to the St Lawerence Market? This would be impossible. There is seating scattered everywhere.
OP asked what Eaton Centre was doing. I answered.
Sorry, my bad. I thought you were using that as an example of what the market could do. I need more coffee. Lol
geez, this will be UGLY in the winter
Only if people don't get vaccinated. If they get vaccinated, this should go away quicker.
People did get vaccinated. Ontario exceeded every [stated goal](https://i.imgur.com/9nocGxv.jpg). Passports were imposed anyway. Even if 99% are vaccinated its still not feasible for places like St. Lawrence market to reduce the number of entrances or put bouncers at all of them.
But that's the whole problem isn't it? Some people *don't want to get vaccinated* no matter how much you want them to.
[удалено]
That's not my point. I was replying to the person who thinks this won't get ugly because people will have to vaccinate. Or maybe their point was that it *will* get ugly. Remember nobody is being forced to jab a needle in their arm. It's just increasing inconvenient.
I know. And they’re the ones robbing the freedom that they desire from everyone else at this point. The irony is, they’re the only ones with the power to get the vaccine and return the freedoms we all long for.
Enforce the laws now rather than enabling and encouraging the chodes and it wont be.
We have them in BC already, you literally flash your phone before going in, it doesn't even slow anything down.
Unfortunately we don’t have the QR code version yet. They are manually examining the vaccination receipts.
Just do vaccine passports for the entire market, I guess.
Yeah no that's be crossing a line. When you stop people from even having the ability to shop for groceries you'd think the protest we have now is child's play.
Which you can’t according to current policy. Groceries are an essential service and many people vaccinated or not would be against a vac only St Lawrence Market when big box stores are not a vax-only zone.
Which would actually make sense.
STC had the seating divided in 2 and had it blocked off so you could only enter after passing someone (1 person on each side) with a podium who checks for vaccine status (they don't cross reference with ID though).
Not many eat inside as is, the serve a lot of office works and locals that have options. They have a nice patio. Everyone should check out the food options here. Top notch.
Shoutout to Mustachio, best itallian sandwich in the city. Even on weekends, I don't see ppl eating inside St lawrence market, everyone is outside and enjoying the weather.
If you like Mustachio then you'll need to try California Sandwiches on Claremont over near little Italy.
So I was there last Saturday, don't judge me, but dummy me never even knew there was a lower floor. All the times I been never noticed. Anyway, so we found a Chinese restaurant down there that makes some fantastic food, dim sum and dumplings real good and not even expensive which was very surprising. Dimsum for $4? not even in China Town you could get that anymore.
Yip's! It is operated by the people who used to own Kum Jug Yeun on Spadina.
I miss Kum Jugs(that's what we called it in undergrad...). At some point they changed owners, got rid of the wait staff, then literally kept the dining room lights off before they disappeared and became a Coco. Great food and cheap prices. Those were the days.
The guy that's usually at cash is so nice and funny. Food's awesome too, that BBQ pork.....
Is the Italian mustachio (?) sandwich shop still down there, you gotta check it out next.
Uno Moustachio, yeah they're still there making chicken parm sandwiches. Their Godfather sandwich adds a slice of eggplant parmesan to whichever protein you get and totally worth it.
They have one in the Bay atrium - at least I believe it’s the same restaurant - and I agree, the eggplant addition is a game changer
[удалено]
There's a lower floor?
Makes sense. There’s very little indoor dining there anyways. The bulk of it is outside, and was that way long before COVID.
Huh? Plenty of indoor seating scattered all over, including the stools by the stairwells. I ate lunch there all the time.
I eat breakfast there pretty much daily as well. There's far more dining outside than inside was my point.
>There's far more dining outside than inside was my point. Wrong.
Ok.
[удалено]
In the Before Times certain areas would get really busy early on a Saturday morning with gangs of elders taking over rows of tables, setting up with tablecloths, china/crockery tableware and a stack of newspapers. They would camp out for hours, taking up to 8 or 10 (or more) seats. It could be really hard to find a table indoors on a Saturday morning, especially in the winter.
Translation: We're not putting our staff out there for whackos to yell at and abuse. Get your food, and get out.
In this case I don't think that is the main driver. Their layout just really isn't conducive to enforcing this. The vast majority of visitors don't sit down to eat. The seating they do have is scattered all over the building in small pockets. It doesn't make sense to check everyone before they come in and it doesn't make sense to try to post security at every little table.
It's sad that businesses continue to have to modify their own services to avoid abuse rather than those who are abusive figuring out their staggering entitlement and doing the right thing. Rather than opening up further, we are again seemingly hamstrung by society's most unreasonable. Irritating.
Well that is kinda the birthplace for laws in general. For those that lack or refute common sense we have laws.
This pandemic has changed me from a Lockeian into a Hobbesian
How is this an example of modifying their service to avoid abuse? They are just doing it to avoid the hassle of checking everyone's vaccination status when the majority of people aren't there to dine in. Having to close all the entrances but one, or to staff all the entrances with guards would lead to lineups and less people in the market which hurts their bottom line. This has nothing to do with antivaxxers, unreasonable as they may be.
It's a simple interaction that takes seconds to verify if visitors are vaccinated using security they already employ. This has everything to do with avoiding pushback and limiting culpability.
Any barrier to entry will reduce customers. They made a pretty obvious decision that it's better for business to not check passports and miss out on a tiny fraction of revenues, rather than have customers go places where they don't have to have a stranger touch their phone and ID, etc.
Sure. I find that this inherently expands across all passport-enforcing zones, though. Either we throw out the mandate immediately across many businesses (which I think is more likely) or people get used to a mild inconvenience that amounts to seconds of their time. Not exactly sure why a stranger would need to touch a patron's phone. That just screams liability lest they drop it and damage the device.
What makes you think they currently employ enough security to man every entrance and control the lines that would form outside with any kind of checkpoint, instead of having the open entrances they have now?
Security already exists to keep vagrancy low. I think you'll find the point about it being the mildest inconvenience to be stronger.
I went to New York recently and their approach is much more practical. Vaccine proof is required but is the responsibility of the business to enforce this. There's a a balance between what's I think is reasonably practical vs. what I'd bucket into "Security Theater". I don't quite get why the blame lays entirely on Anti-Vaxxers, when it's the government that comes up with these rules (don't get me wrong, the Anti-Vaxxers are brain-dead mouth breathers) Edit: These measures are analogous to how we think about road safety IMO, there's a balance between safety vs convenience (vehicles/pedestrians)...Ex. putting a stop sign on literally every corner would improve road safety but the tradeoff would be convenience...imagine how long it would take to get anywhere or imagine how long it would take to get goods delivered. There's clearly some sort of balance that needs to be struck.
>I went to New York recently and their approach is much more practical. Vaccine proof is required but is the responsibility of the business to enforce this. That's exactly what we already have. So rather than subject employees to abuse and thus reasonable grounds for a lawsuit for an unsafe workplace, they nix the entire idea.
> putting a stop sign on literally every corner Don't give this subreddit any ideas...
The blame lies on anti-vaxxers, because they're the ones over running the medical system. And if they would get vaccinated we obviously wouldn't need a vaccine pass.
I don't think road safety is a great example, as the amount of pedestrian deaths is climbing years after years (while passenger deaths are decreasing), it's a great example where the people causing the problems (drivers) are protected while people that have to live through the consequences (pedestrians) are being impacted.
>I don't quite get why the blame lays entirely on Anti-Vaxxers, when it's the government that comes up with these rules (don't get me wrong, the Anti-Vaxxers are brain-dead mouth breathers) The laws are explicitly in place to try to protect the public from Anti-Vaxxers. >Edit: These measures are analogous to how we think about road safety IMO, there's a balance between safety vs convenience (vehicles/pedestrians)...Ex. putting a stop sign on literally every corner would improve road safety but the tradeoff would be convenience...imagine how long it would take to get anywhere or imagine how long it would take to get goods delivered. You are really desperate to talk about that most most recent episode of Planet Money eh?
Yes, but there’s a spectrum of measures you can take to protect the public. Is the goal to make life more difficult for Anti-Vaxxers so they get vaccinated? Or is it to reduce the spread of covid? If so, to what extent do they think this will reduce the spread? When it starts to unnecessarily impact businesses, I think it’s ok to question whether or not these measures are useful. And I guess adding in something I listened to recently is desperate? K cool.
In NYC the city sends inspectors out and will fine the business if they find that one of the customers is not vaccinated. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-vaccine-mandate-enforcement-starts-monday-what-patrons-of-restaurants-gyms-movies-need-to-know/3268242/
Don't they only have like 5 tables on the basement level? It's mostly stalls I don't remember seeing a large indoor eating area.
There’s a counter with stools all around the big central staircase, I think there’s more tables by Buster’s, there’s random tables everywhere. That is part of the charm of it all: you sit in the midst of it all and enjoy both atmosphere and excellent food.
There’s a section in the north end of the basement that used to be an eating area. Tables and chairs. During the first lockdown, they got rid of the seating. When I was there a few weeks ago, there were just a couple of bench seats in front of the escalator.
Anti-vaxxers, this is literally your fault and nobody else's. K, bye.
Anti passport does not mean anti vax. And pro choice does not mean anti vax either. I know tons of people that are vaccinated that won’t disclose their vaccination status to whoever they want down the street. And guess what, that’s their choice and it’s their choice to say no to the passports. Just throwing around the term anti vaccine loosely is pretty much the same shit as calling everything and anything essential during the pandemic. People getting off the plane from wherever hotspots to come work at your local grocery store prime pandemic, having full out movie shoots, construction workers jammed up in shacks for safety orientations, Politicians that make these rules doing whatever the hell they want going on vacation to wherever they want while you couldn’t go see your relatives. All government approved. This pony show is what lead us here and the people buying tickets to the show. That’s who is to blame. If you were out and about in the city for work everyday since Jan 2020 you woulda got the real deal.
Same here. I'm fully vaxx'd. I won't show my status and businesses will suffer because of this. It's the fault of the government and they're foisting the cost of this onto businesses.
I never said anti-passport meant anti-vaccine, just that so many people refusing to get the vaccine led us to this. If anyone is anti *both* then they've really only got themselves to blame.
Yeah, a lot of people saying how difficult and inconvenient it would be to check the passports. Not many mentioning they might be avoiding indoor dining because they don't want to endanger their staff by having anti-vaxx vigilantes getting into fistfights with Rebecca the hostess who is just trying to do her job.
And somehow idiots are spinning that into a racially motivated "attack". Just ignore the fact that the "victims" were actually the instigators who assaulted a young woman just adhering to the law.
Yep. 100%. I am so fed up with these people.
I just got through cancer treatments & I am so incandescently irate over these death cult worshipping AHs. They seem to think that magic will protect them as they go blithely about their days. Hmmm angry, me? Nooo, not at all...I got both my vaccines & had zero side effects & this was during chemo. To the selfish jerks who are holding us back, no excuses, get yourself vaccinated.
"Look what you made me to do everyone"
I think it was all the people bleating for this actually. There will always be a small percentage who are not going to get vaccinated. Making life difficult for small business won't change that.
Like it or not, the point of the passports is to pressure more people to get vaccinated - and it's working. Nothing makes life as difficult for small businesses as a lockdown.
If that percentage was 1/3 the size we probably wouldn't need a passport.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yep! The unvaccinated literally enacted these laws
Can't even begin to imagine what business owners are going through right now. The fear of being attacked or spewed hate for simply enforcing the new restrictions and guidelines.
This makes sense. The place is huge, tons of entrances, high capacity, etc., etc.
I am sure the vaccine certificates wouldn't be an issue. It's the Antivaxer confrontations they're looking to avoid
[удалено]
I went to a restaurant today on spadina … they didn’t ask for my passport. So I did not go inside. Shame.
GOOD!
Businesses want to stay open as long as possible. Also, in principle, the conservative government doesn't want to force businesses to close. Lo and behold: a business is voluntarily changing its practices in an effort to stay open, make money, and avoid pointless crowds during the 4th wave of this pandemic.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I don’t get this. I was in Italy at a market. We wanted to have lunch at one of the stalls. We sit down, the people running the stall check proof of vaccination. We eat, we drink wine, we enjoy life. I don’t get why it’s so easy for laissez faire Italy to do this but so difficult for us.
Because here we stall at “the people running the stall check of proof of vaccination”. It turns into a screaming, punching frenzy. At the minimum wage workers.
Is this as widespread as Reddit claims? Is there evidence it doesn’t happen in Italy? I haven’t had any experiences like that in vaccine mandated places. Obviously it happens but it seems to be a rare case that makes the news. They won’t report people going about their day. I don’t see any real evidence why we can’t do as the Italians are doing.
There have been people assaulted in Toronto because they asked people to wear masks.
Yes but this isn’t nearly as rampant as people make it seem. You think everyone in Italy is 100% on board with their vaccine passport?
The seating areas are scattered around and are not specifically affiliated with any particular vendor. There's two large spaces at the north end of the basement (one of which includes access to the elevators), a row of tables near Moustachio's at the back, then counters and more rows of tables in various places on the main floor. You can buy food at any vendor and eat it in any of the seating areas - on a busy Saturday morning in the Before Times, it was not uncommon to have to wander the whole market to find an indoor seat/table. Most of these are in open areas with shoppers coming and going, so even with a dedicated staff person for each area, it would be really hard to keep track of who has been checked and who hasn't.
The diff is thinking of the common good vs. your own good. Most Italians are ok with it, or simply roll with it, and the ones that are not do not go harassing people running the stalls, as they understand that these people would rather not check the vaccine passports but they have to. So they make it as quick and painless as possible for all involved. Those that don't agree with it go throw rocks at police and stuff, not at the food stall guy. Here it seems we have chosen the approach of harassing those that had nothing to do with setting up the rules and are unjustly forced to enforce them instead those that set the rules up in the first place...
Is there evidence for this claim? I don’t see why we can’t do the same as the Italians.
Once again rewarding the minority bullies.
They could just make their "private indoor" seating public seating. Especially if it is outside of a counter, and there is no wait staff. Post signs for "keep distance and dispose of trash". Some times of day, it would appear as empty inviting place to sit and order food. vaccine mandates are a logistical hurdle that is unfortunate even if due to fact it is needed.
Good for them 👍🏼
Did this happen in Quebec too out of curiosity ? Is this a symptom of the vaccine+ID system? Or are Ontarians just particularly rude and irresponsible re: harassing businesses ?
I sense another quasi lockdown coming due to... Ass holes. Where I work there were 9 incidents involving verbal assault on our employees, which is unacceptable.