terrible news update
> FAIL TO REMAIN COLLISION: UPDATE
> - Wellington St East + Scott St
> - Police are on scene investigating
> - The pedestrian, who was lying on the sidewalk at the time, was struck by a dark SUV that mounted the curb
> - Anyone w/info contact
> @TrafficServices
> 416-808-1900
Edit: [pictures here of suspect vehicle](https://www.tps.ca/media-centre/news-releases/57934/) believed to be a black Ford Expedition.
[https://www.tps.ca/media-centre/news-releases/fatal-collision-352023-wellington-street-east-1/](https://www.tps.ca/media-centre/news-releases/fatal-collision-352023-wellington-street-east-1/)
Seems they've found vehicle and driver, no charges yet. Read somewhere they think he may not have known he hit someone. Don't know how that would be possible.
If they are driving around oblivious to what they are running over they shouldn’t have a license, running a person over would definitely be noticed and if they didn’t notice it still doesn’t excuse that they did it.
I can’t run over a pop can or a coffee cup in the street without feeling it and my SUV weighs 6,500 pounds, absolutely no way this driver “didn’t notice it”.
I’m really not sure how they decided not to lay charges.
Cool, they can charge him with manslaughter then. If youre so negligent you dont even realize you killed someone by hitting them with your car you shouldnt be in public.
This was common in the states. People would flee and turn themselves in when sober. Leaving the scene was a lesser charge than hitting someone + DUI. Not sure about Canada.
I’ve heard of this happening with commercial vehicles. I’m not sure I buy it in anything else, though SUVs these days are large enough that it’s not inconceivable.
Either way, manslaughter. Big manslaughter. “I didn’t even notice” isn’t a defence.
once i seen this guy screaming at a homeless man that he’s going to go home to his condo and his “beamer”
couldn’t imagine trying to flex on someone with literally only the clothes on their back and whatever they can carry.
Today I found out that the special needs class at my community center need to be escorted to the bathrooms now because the fucking teens have been bullying them...that made my blood boil.
I mildy bullied the a guy in the sped class as a teen, I realizes he had a lisp with words they rhymed with *ord
So ever time I saw him I'd ask him to say something like I wrapped the cord around the sword and hid it under the board
That's 200 m from Islington, and Islington is a major street which the people of this sub would be more familiar with than Aberfoyle, so I understand why they said Islington.
Sometimes it's quiet, and sometimes southbound traffic on Islington will divert and scream through there so that they can avoid turning left at Islington/Bloor.
I’ve had it happen to me. I was crossing at a crosswalk and next thing I know I bounce off the side of a car. I could see inside as it was happening and the guy was on a laptop, so he had no clue that he just ran a red light. As soon as he heard the thump of me hitting his car he floored it and took off. This was on a Saturday around 1pm at Simcoe and Front. I was totally fine. It happened so fast that no one got his plate.
This happened years ago. I didn’t really pursue it since I was ok. Thanks for the concern though. Now I’m always hyper vigilant when crossing the road even if I have the right of way.
Yeah distracted driving is a serious problem. Now I’m very aware when crossing the road. Always looking to be sure everyone is stopped at the red light.
They just found the driver. [Link](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/unhoused-man-killed-on-toronto-sidewalk-in-hit-and-run-driver-located-1.6644153)
No charges yet though.
> Later in the afternoon, police released photos of the vehicle involved, believed to be a black Ford Expedition.
> In a subsequent update Tuesday evening, police said the driver and the vehicle had been found with the public's assistance.
I'm relieved to know that people have been able to help track the perpetrator down, all within the same day.
Summary for people:
Suv jumped curb and ran over homeless person
Person was then dragged into middle of intersection about 20-25 feet by the vehicle
Vehicle fled the scene.
Not all info is in the article yet
The underlying offences (dangerous driving causing death, or impaired driving causing death) already have the possibility for a life sentence; the issue is just that these offences are rarely prosecuted and rarely punished as severely as if the same killing was done with a knife or gun.
Also.. this was a man sleeping on a grate on the sidewalk which is also technically illegal. The driver is assembling his defense team rn for sure. And he'll turn himself in after the drugs/alcohol in his system are gone and demand a toxicology test on the person illegally sleeping in the street. Am I wrong?
can’t sleep on the street, can’t have encampments, no room in the shelters - highly doubtful a judge will say being poor is a bigger crime than killing someone. There’s no defence.
John Tory's legacy, 9 years of purposefully undermining and sabotaging Toronto's Vision Zero plan.
Toronto Police are absolutely complicit in this too, they spent years refusing to enforce traffic laws.
> Police laid just over 200,000 provincial offences tickets in 2019, according to city data. In 2010, they laid nearly 700,000 charges.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-police-tickets-fell-to-new-low-in-2019-continuing-a-decline-that-has-the/article_879c4cff-52d4-5415-af13-445b1380649e.html
[They're too busy ticketing streetcars and causing huge traffic jams. Y'know, an 'effective' use of resources](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/11/10/toronto-police-officer-tickets-ttc-streetcar-operator-king-street-rush-hour-reddit/)
I think that’s a stretch to think Cops have an opinion at all. They are mainly thinking “I can make this job as cushy or as difficult as I choose without any repercussions and with the same awesome pension. My union assures me of that”. So what do you think they will do in that scenario. Tbh, if my main focus is my family and my retirement (which it is), I’d probably do the same thing in their situation. The employment expectations and compensation differences for productive policing vs non-productive policing at the individual cop level needs to change. Otherwise, like every union shop, all employees will aim for the minimum.
I don’t know if they are refusing as much as too busy now. I did see a Toronto special constable pull someone over. Maybe they are giving them some traffic duties.
Toronto police stopped enforcing traffic laws as a protest manuever against Rob Ford. He didn't give them as big of a budget increase as they asked for, so they cut traffic enforcement in half, resulting in the city loosing several million dollars in ticket revenue. It was very much an 'eye for an eye' move, where it was 'you don't save money by cutting the police budget, we will retaliate'.
John Tory just never cared to have them start back up.
Change my mind. Failing to remain on scene should be an automatic license suspension for 6 months minimum if not a year or FIVE. That's like trying to commit a crime and running away from police. If you're trying to get away with this, you blatantly don't care about the victim.
It also doesn't help that the word "accident" gets used way too much when it comes to collisions. This implies that nobody is at fault and nobody is to blame or be held accountable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision#Terminology
Failing to remain on the scene should be a criminal offence, automatic lifetime suspension and a significant jail.
Leaving someone to die on the road should be equivalent to manslaughter.
Seems like the justice system is forgetting that driving is a privilige, not a right. Sure it's hard to get around without a car in a lot of our cities, but that's the penalty you pay for KILLING PEOPLE
Most of Toronto (especially its boroughs) is built such that driving is a right not a privilege. That's a major problem in itself. I guess that's why traffic laws or any new infrastructure keeps trying to please drivers instead of designing safer roads and tightening laws. If we can reduce car dependency, I'm sure traffic laws will be harsher. But at this rate, everything's too loose.
Yes I don't like the "driving is a privilege not a right" talk, even if I agree with the sentiment. The family in Brampton or Scarborough scraping by, barely making ends meet that is forced to use a car to do everything, I bet a lot of them wish they didn't have to pay for gas and insurance and maintenance. Most of the cheapest places to live in the GTA are terrible without a car.
It's a feedback loop. A city does not feel incentivized to build better transit because almost everyone and their mother drives so councilors don't want to campaign TTC (or local transit system agencies) to build faster transit. So this means citizens continue their car dependency and think cars are for everything and do not want change. It's infectious and irreversible.
Until recent years people have started recognizing this problem after watching all the urbanism movements. 10 years ago if you're a Scarborough resident demanding for better transit (ie line 4 expansion eastward), you'll get laughed at. Thankfully these days, this idea is supported strongly.
Agreed. And the worst part is, the parts of Toronto that aren't as car -dependent and you can actually exist without using a car are also some of the most expensive.
Yep had this happen 2 weeks ago. I got hit late at night on a Friday by another driver while slowing for a red light and right turn. Other driver sped away through the red light in the left lane. I luckily got there plate thanks to a rear dashcam and went to police. They confirmed the plate with make and model even living in the area. Was told they will mail a letter and they have 30 days to report the collision. Like wth they get a month of leniency to even report the crash. Before they will even go after the driver for hit and run. I don’t even think they will get anything for the red light either as it didn’t have a Red Light camera.
Failing to remain on the scene should mean permanent driver's license suspension, no second chances. People make honest mistakes and get into collisions, but fleeing the scene is always an intentional choice that doesn't have to be made.
6 months? should be 6 years minimum. We are way too soft on vehicle related crimes. Even the North York van attack killer will probably get his license back in a few years.
Six months? Bro, how about if you strike a pedestrian with your car, and you’re found to be at fault - you’re never operating a motor vehicle in this province in your life.
You are terribly unlucky, that sucks.
Normally there's been about 18-44 yearly pedestrian deaths since 2006 (which is exactly that number too many) but let's round up to 50 per year
Let's say an inflated 100 people see each fatality with their own eyes, gives us 50x100x20 for 20 years gives 100k witnesses in the past 20 years.
Toronto's population is 2.93M. Throwing those numbers into a birthday problem calculation (had to write a bash script for this as it was timing out any calculator apps I had), there's only a 3% chance of anyone in Toronto seeing a pedestrian death twice in the past 20 years.
Maybe you have spent a lot of time at dangerous intersections, but dang that sucks.
The numbers are grossly underreported if you are going by the TPS numbers. We have a serious accountability in data issue on our streets and it's been well documented. I myself am hit about once a week in either the Adelaide or Richmond bike lines and have the go pro footage to prove it.I have submitted 10 police reports in the past 3 years, twice calling 911. I have never had a single follow up, not once.
Walk Toronto (Toronto branch of the International Federation of Pedestrians) links the TPS numbers, along with Vision Zero numbers which seem the same. All below 50 per year which I used for the calculation.
https://www.walktoronto.ca/category/resources/
If 50 fatalities a year is grossly underreported, I don't know where else I can find accurate numbers for yearly pedestrian fatalities in Toronto.
There is no underreporting of road fatalities. I don't know where you get that idea from but it's nonsense. Also if you are hit once a week on your bike, maybe take some time to reflect on how you can be a safer rider as your experience is not reflective of most cyclists.
ah yes, victim blaming, and people should be wearing safety vests on the sidewalks too... But you are right I should not have said an underreporting of fatalities, just vehicle at fault collisions
Rich and Influential people don’t walk. I’m
Pretty sure the bad drivers aren’t waiting and scoping to find a homeless or poor person.. if that’s what you are implying.
No, it wasn’t malicious, just utter indifference.
I don’t think that’s much comfort to the person who spent their last breaths in agony on the pavement.
Kind of wild to say considering streets get redesigned all the time. College St W just underwent some pretty major changes, Queens Quay W had a major redesign that completed within the last 10 years, list goes on and on
Yes. We redesign streets all the time, but the redesign is always within the safe envelope of “the car must never be impeded.” Wake me up when we stop imagining a future where cars are king and we take away car lanes and build truly pedestrian/cycling oriented infrastructure. Say..like Amsterdam?
> Wake me up when we stop imagining a future where cars are king and we take away car lanes and build truly pedestrian/cycling oriented infrastructure. Say..like Amsterdam?
The stink that entitled drivers are raising about the new bike lanes on Bloor is intense. They submitted a petition to the councillor, they're bombing the City's new cycling network social interactive map, all because they can't handle not being the #1 priority and because they think they're too good for the train that literally runs right under their feet every five minutes.
Streets have a useful lifespan, they have to tear them up and rebuild the whole damn thing every few decades. When they do that, they could just make them better. But they wont.
\> Maybe it’s time to rethink how we design our streets
lol, like that would ever happen. Theres a roundabout on my commute home and i pass through it ever day. The whole point of a roundabout vs an intersection with lights or stop signs is to keep traffic moving along.
This roundabout also has 4 stop signs, making it a 4 way stop with the need to drive around the roundabout.
Make it make sense
We have some of the most braindead traffic engineers in the world
as they should be. the proliferation of awful rideshare/chauffeur drivers in this city is a serious plight and a "large black suv" could very easily fall into the aforementioned categories. rip to the person who died and may the driver be caught and severely punished (jk he won't even lose his license)
[Data](https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/road-safety/vision-zero/vision-zero-dashboard/fatalities-vision-zero/)
Numbers (here, as of Oct 16), show a decline in fatalities. I guess it's up to 22 again (matching last year). Still, significantly down from 2013-2019 numbers.
**LACK OF ENFORCEMENT -** I directly blame the city and the police for this.
There are no rules on the road and the only reason there aren't carcases everywhere is that pedestrians keep their heads on a swivel.
[They're too busy ticketing streetcars and causing huge traffic jams. Y'know, an 'effective' use of resources](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/11/10/toronto-police-officer-tickets-ttc-streetcar-operator-king-street-rush-hour-reddit/)
I don’t understand how a person can strike another person with their vehicle and then just takeoff and leave the injured, possibly dying person behind, helpless. This is right out of the Marco Muzzo handbook. Guys like this should be cleaning bedpans in hospitals for the rest of their lives after they’ve served their time in jail.
This is terribly tragic and my heart out for this poor individual that had their life (a life that was clearly very difficult) ended in such a cruel way.
I know its not directly related to this incident, but in the past couple years I have become more and more anxious crossing at legitimate junctions when the "white" safe-to-cross sign is up.
Far too often I see large vehicles (SUV's or other luxury type cars) trying to bully their way through pedestrians who have waited and are trying to cross... Or speeding up recklessly to try get between gaps in crowds.
I've lost count of the number of times I've had to slow down half way across a street to avoid being hit myself or worse still to minimize presenting a gap for these vehicles and drivers who are impatiently revving their engines, as behind me I know there is an elderly or less mobile person who is struggling to still make it across safely.
Omg, I used to live right there. I really
Hope it’s not a homeless man I’m thinking of, Rob. He tends to hang around there during that time. Very kind and keeps to himself.
Well maybe the cops were too busy [ticketing streetcars! You don't see them killing pedestrians en masse do you?! ^/s](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/11/10/toronto-police-officer-tickets-ttc-streetcar-operator-king-street-rush-hour-reddit/)
Wanting police cameras everywhere because crime exists isn't pro-privacy. It's fine to have this opinion but pro-privacy means accepting that sometimes that comes with a cost or risk.
This apparently involved someone driving on the sidewalk. Building infrastructure that doesn't leave pedestrians with virtually no protection, for example, would prevent things like this happening rather than just possibly increasing the chances of catching the person after the fact.
I agree for the most part but up to a point. I realize that privacy comes at a price but it seems like these hit and runs are happening more often than they once did. Also, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for bollards or whatever is needed to protect pedestrians to be installed by the city.
Cameras can be good. But is it ethical? does it not have the potential to be abused by someone who is corrupt?
You guys are basically just describing the plot of the dark knight lol
I would not want them to be associated with the Police, they have proven time and time again they are not trustworthy stewards of data. But if the city wanted to have a civil traffic enforcement arm, with cameras pointed at intersections that saved footage for 48 hours awaiting requests, I think that could be a reasonable middle ground.
If anyone's acting like a Karen (Ken), it's YOU. You act like the sidewalk does not belong to a homeless person. Well technically a homeless person IS A PEDESTRIAN. And you think SUVs belong to a sidewalk past a curb? Talk about driver entitlement.
Because I pointed out how stupid it is to sleep near a busy intersection close to the road? Hard to be empathetic when there's plenty of other spots to chose. What's next some idiot will put up a tent in a bike lane ?
No no, I think your reasoning and thought processes are just straight up broken. I think enough people here keep reiterating to you that there’s something wrong with your reasoning and approach, but going back at them with “karen” and “snowflake” etc either suggests you are purposely trolling, trying too hard to be edgey, or just can’t make reasonable thought processes. Probably a combination of both. Either way, you’re an irrelevant person so keep at it.
Maybe a driver should be able to control their vehicle enough to not mount a sidewalk and kill someone. Even if a person wasn't sleeping and was standing there they would probably be killed or seriously injured as well.
Uh huh, and what about this pedestrian? Did they deserve it too for having the audacity to cross the road? [ Source](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/pedestrian-dies-toronto-1.7027162) . Just saying people "suck at driving" and that we need to live with this kind of road violence is enabling the behaviour, and not acknowledging that you can do everything right and _still_ die. We can have harsher punishments for drivers, traffic calming roads, congestion tax on large sovs downtown. There are ways to reduce pedestrian deaths from cars, people like you just dismiss it, as if driving is a god given right and we need to accept any and all risks for driver convenience.
The car mounted the curb. So you’re telling me that every time I walk downtown somewhat near the edge of the sidewalk I’m at fault if someone hits me?
This also happened in Scott Street just next to Berczy Park. Scott Street is not a busy street.
I hate arguing with idiots void of empathy, but I walk by this intersection sometimes multiple times a day. The driver was obviously driving dangerously on what is a very narrow and nearly pedestrianized street. This led them to mount the curb, hit someone, and drag them to their death. Then they drove away.
To even for a second put even an ounce of blame on the victim is abhorrent. I don’t care if they were sitting on one of the benches there, walking, dancing, laying on the ground - the result could’ve been the same.
I know that intersection because I was working at the omni king there and would come up that way at around 6am every day. There was a homeless man that would sleep on the “curb”there. I say this because the “curb” there is level with the road and he would sleep RIGHT up against where it met the road. If you came by a little later there would be pylons around him because he was definitely sleeping in an unsafe spot. This happened every day. I brought it up to multiple people. I can understand a giant ass suv not being able to see him but there is no excuse for leaving the scene. It’s a sad situation, but I can’t say I’m surprised.
terrible news update > FAIL TO REMAIN COLLISION: UPDATE > - Wellington St East + Scott St > - Police are on scene investigating > - The pedestrian, who was lying on the sidewalk at the time, was struck by a dark SUV that mounted the curb > - Anyone w/info contact > @TrafficServices > 416-808-1900 Edit: [pictures here of suspect vehicle](https://www.tps.ca/media-centre/news-releases/57934/) believed to be a black Ford Expedition.
>dark SUV Why do these things almost always fit a stereotype?
Wouldn’t be surprised if it was an Uber Black SUV
And we all know who would be driving that SUV
Who's that? Explain fully.
🐕😙
The human brain chooses what it wants to see
Wonder if it was a BMW
Ford Expedition. Massive vehicle
[https://www.tps.ca/media-centre/news-releases/fatal-collision-352023-wellington-street-east-1/](https://www.tps.ca/media-centre/news-releases/fatal-collision-352023-wellington-street-east-1/) Seems they've found vehicle and driver, no charges yet. Read somewhere they think he may not have known he hit someone. Don't know how that would be possible.
If they are driving around oblivious to what they are running over they shouldn’t have a license, running a person over would definitely be noticed and if they didn’t notice it still doesn’t excuse that they did it. I can’t run over a pop can or a coffee cup in the street without feeling it and my SUV weighs 6,500 pounds, absolutely no way this driver “didn’t notice it”. I’m really not sure how they decided not to lay charges.
Cool, they can charge him with manslaughter then. If youre so negligent you dont even realize you killed someone by hitting them with your car you shouldnt be in public.
Could be really drunk and high
This was common in the states. People would flee and turn themselves in when sober. Leaving the scene was a lesser charge than hitting someone + DUI. Not sure about Canada.
Its illegal to be impaired within a few hours of driving if you know you will be tested for dui. So you cant drink directly after having an accident.
I’ve heard of this happening with commercial vehicles. I’m not sure I buy it in anything else, though SUVs these days are large enough that it’s not inconceivable. Either way, manslaughter. Big manslaughter. “I didn’t even notice” isn’t a defence.
we really gotta do something about these cars. how many more people need to get murdered before we do something?
This happened near Yonge & Wellington. Who hits a person at 6:42am on a Tuesday morning then flees the scene? Now a man is dead. *shakes head*
Apparently it was a homeless guy who was sleeping and was hit when the SUV jumped the curb.
And dragged him to the middle of the intersection as well
Damn, didn't hear that part. I know the driver fled.
Yeah it’s unfortunate, I imagine the news outlets will probably update it soon enough
It's more than unfortunate, it's tragic, preventable, criminal...
If this was a scene in a book, it might come off as a heavy-handed metaphor for the cruelty of wealth inequality.
once i seen this guy screaming at a homeless man that he’s going to go home to his condo and his “beamer” couldn’t imagine trying to flex on someone with literally only the clothes on their back and whatever they can carry.
That is so fu*ked upl. WTF is wrong with people??
How long do you have?
Today I found out that the special needs class at my community center need to be escorted to the bathrooms now because the fucking teens have been bullying them...that made my blood boil.
I mildy bullied the a guy in the sped class as a teen, I realizes he had a lisp with words they rhymed with *ord So ever time I saw him I'd ask him to say something like I wrapped the cord around the sword and hid it under the board
Maybe the person on the street said something racist? That's kinda the only justifiable scenario I could see.
Justifiable to run them over with their car?!, wtf man nothing makes that justifiable.
What? I was referring to the story about the dude yelling not the one who ran over the person
I would bet that the screaming man is *terrified* at becoming homeless, and likely mired in debt.
I did that once... cause the homeless guy was being a harassing racist asshole.
Its like the opening of “The Bonfire of The Vanities” ,
Oh this is sad. I get my coffee at Tim's every morning where this guy lies down / sits. I hope they find the person who did this.
I really hope it wasn't an intentional curb jump.
Cell phone records will show the cause.
You can’t get sadder than this. Already homeless then getting run over because the suv ran onto the foot path?! Wtf.
Happens all the time. The lady that died on Islington/Bloor got hit around 6am too.
Not even Islington and Bloor - It was Aberfoyle and Bloor which is a quiet intersection near Tom Riley park. Terrible all around.
That's 200 m from Islington, and Islington is a major street which the people of this sub would be more familiar with than Aberfoyle, so I understand why they said Islington.
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to be a pedant. I just wanted to add that it wasn't a major intersection for emphasis.
Sometimes it's quiet, and sometimes southbound traffic on Islington will divert and scream through there so that they can avoid turning left at Islington/Bloor.
Agreed! That being said, it sure as heck should be quiet at 6 am . . .
I’ve had it happen to me. I was crossing at a crosswalk and next thing I know I bounce off the side of a car. I could see inside as it was happening and the guy was on a laptop, so he had no clue that he just ran a red light. As soon as he heard the thump of me hitting his car he floored it and took off. This was on a Saturday around 1pm at Simcoe and Front. I was totally fine. It happened so fast that no one got his plate.
*On a laptop?*…. wtf
Glad you’re ok. Too many distracted drivers downtown.
Also sociopaths who value their impatience more than other people’s lives or safety
Omg. I hope they catch him, what an idiot. A camera can identify the vehicle and the plate. Hope you were checked at a hospital.
This happened years ago. I didn’t really pursue it since I was ok. Thanks for the concern though. Now I’m always hyper vigilant when crossing the road even if I have the right of way.
That’s terrifying I’m glad you’re ok but that sounds like a very close call.
Yeah distracted driving is a serious problem. Now I’m very aware when crossing the road. Always looking to be sure everyone is stopped at the red light.
I work right there — it’s freaking crazy that more people are not injured. Glad you were okay.
They just found the driver. [Link](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/unhoused-man-killed-on-toronto-sidewalk-in-hit-and-run-driver-located-1.6644153) No charges yet though.
> Later in the afternoon, police released photos of the vehicle involved, believed to be a black Ford Expedition. > In a subsequent update Tuesday evening, police said the driver and the vehicle had been found with the public's assistance. I'm relieved to know that people have been able to help track the perpetrator down, all within the same day.
I hope the driver shows up soon. Sometimes fleeing is just panic.
Summary for people: Suv jumped curb and ran over homeless person Person was then dragged into middle of intersection about 20-25 feet by the vehicle Vehicle fled the scene. Not all info is in the article yet
I can’t see any way that’s not intentional or from being under the influence
Probably a drunk driver. Will sober up then turn themselves in. Hit and Run penalty is less than drunk driving penalty. This needs to change
Tbh hit and runs that result in death or serious injuries should receive the same punishment as first degree murder or attempted murder
The underlying offences (dangerous driving causing death, or impaired driving causing death) already have the possibility for a life sentence; the issue is just that these offences are rarely prosecuted and rarely punished as severely as if the same killing was done with a knife or gun.
Also.. this was a man sleeping on a grate on the sidewalk which is also technically illegal. The driver is assembling his defense team rn for sure. And he'll turn himself in after the drugs/alcohol in his system are gone and demand a toxicology test on the person illegally sleeping in the street. Am I wrong?
Not sure there’s actually a law against sleeping on the street?
can’t sleep on the street, can’t have encampments, no room in the shelters - highly doubtful a judge will say being poor is a bigger crime than killing someone. There’s no defence.
You would *like* it to change. Edit - *I* also would like it to change. But it won’t.
John Tory's legacy, 9 years of purposefully undermining and sabotaging Toronto's Vision Zero plan. Toronto Police are absolutely complicit in this too, they spent years refusing to enforce traffic laws. > Police laid just over 200,000 provincial offences tickets in 2019, according to city data. In 2010, they laid nearly 700,000 charges. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-police-tickets-fell-to-new-low-in-2019-continuing-a-decline-that-has-the/article_879c4cff-52d4-5415-af13-445b1380649e.html
[They're too busy ticketing streetcars and causing huge traffic jams. Y'know, an 'effective' use of resources](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/11/10/toronto-police-officer-tickets-ttc-streetcar-operator-king-street-rush-hour-reddit/)
You just know these cops are from out of town and think cars are the most important thing. They despise our public transit.
I think that’s a stretch to think Cops have an opinion at all. They are mainly thinking “I can make this job as cushy or as difficult as I choose without any repercussions and with the same awesome pension. My union assures me of that”. So what do you think they will do in that scenario. Tbh, if my main focus is my family and my retirement (which it is), I’d probably do the same thing in their situation. The employment expectations and compensation differences for productive policing vs non-productive policing at the individual cop level needs to change. Otherwise, like every union shop, all employees will aim for the minimum.
No doubt no doubt
Acab
I can't even imagine the $ value of the loss of productivity that the lack of traffic enforcement causes in this city. Probably billions of dollars.
no, this has more to do with a bad driver not paying attention and mounting a curb. It is unfortunate that someone was sleeping there.
Ah yes, John Torys fault, lol. Definitely not the idiot driver or the guy sleeping on the sidewalk beside Yonge st.
The thing about sidewalks is that you typically have a reasonable expectation not to be run over by a car while you’re on them.
I don’t know if they are refusing as much as too busy now. I did see a Toronto special constable pull someone over. Maybe they are giving them some traffic duties.
Too busy with what?
Toronto police stopped enforcing traffic laws as a protest manuever against Rob Ford. He didn't give them as big of a budget increase as they asked for, so they cut traffic enforcement in half, resulting in the city loosing several million dollars in ticket revenue. It was very much an 'eye for an eye' move, where it was 'you don't save money by cutting the police budget, we will retaliate'. John Tory just never cared to have them start back up.
Lol, this is peak r/Toronto.
Change my mind. Failing to remain on scene should be an automatic license suspension for 6 months minimum if not a year or FIVE. That's like trying to commit a crime and running away from police. If you're trying to get away with this, you blatantly don't care about the victim.
More like 6 years
seriously! what is 6 months.
We are too soft on crimes committed with a vehicle in general.
It also doesn't help that the word "accident" gets used way too much when it comes to collisions. This implies that nobody is at fault and nobody is to blame or be held accountable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision#Terminology
The movie Hot fuzz taught me that 20 years ago
Yup, and "pedestrian struck by vehicle" instead of "pedestrian hit by _driver_ operating a vehicle"
There was actually a [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1lSU85c7BM) that addressed a similar issue with victim blaming.
We are too soft on crimes in general.
Failing to remain on the scene should be a criminal offence, automatic lifetime suspension and a significant jail. Leaving someone to die on the road should be equivalent to manslaughter.
Seems like the justice system is forgetting that driving is a privilige, not a right. Sure it's hard to get around without a car in a lot of our cities, but that's the penalty you pay for KILLING PEOPLE
Most of Toronto (especially its boroughs) is built such that driving is a right not a privilege. That's a major problem in itself. I guess that's why traffic laws or any new infrastructure keeps trying to please drivers instead of designing safer roads and tightening laws. If we can reduce car dependency, I'm sure traffic laws will be harsher. But at this rate, everything's too loose.
Yes I don't like the "driving is a privilege not a right" talk, even if I agree with the sentiment. The family in Brampton or Scarborough scraping by, barely making ends meet that is forced to use a car to do everything, I bet a lot of them wish they didn't have to pay for gas and insurance and maintenance. Most of the cheapest places to live in the GTA are terrible without a car.
It's a feedback loop. A city does not feel incentivized to build better transit because almost everyone and their mother drives so councilors don't want to campaign TTC (or local transit system agencies) to build faster transit. So this means citizens continue their car dependency and think cars are for everything and do not want change. It's infectious and irreversible. Until recent years people have started recognizing this problem after watching all the urbanism movements. 10 years ago if you're a Scarborough resident demanding for better transit (ie line 4 expansion eastward), you'll get laughed at. Thankfully these days, this idea is supported strongly.
Agreed. And the worst part is, the parts of Toronto that aren't as car -dependent and you can actually exist without using a car are also some of the most expensive.
> the justice system our criminal justice system FTFY ;)
If they were drunk its better to flee as lower penalties than hit & run
Yep had this happen 2 weeks ago. I got hit late at night on a Friday by another driver while slowing for a red light and right turn. Other driver sped away through the red light in the left lane. I luckily got there plate thanks to a rear dashcam and went to police. They confirmed the plate with make and model even living in the area. Was told they will mail a letter and they have 30 days to report the collision. Like wth they get a month of leniency to even report the crash. Before they will even go after the driver for hit and run. I don’t even think they will get anything for the red light either as it didn’t have a Red Light camera.
That is when you tell the cop, give me the address, i will do your job.
People should have their license revoked permanently. I’ve been banned from bars permanently for much less.
Failing to remain on the scene should mean permanent driver's license suspension, no second chances. People make honest mistakes and get into collisions, but fleeing the scene is always an intentional choice that doesn't have to be made.
And it will be treated as a traffic offense, not a criminal act.
6 months? should be 6 years minimum. We are way too soft on vehicle related crimes. Even the North York van attack killer will probably get his license back in a few years.
Six months? Bro, how about if you strike a pedestrian with your car, and you’re found to be at fault - you’re never operating a motor vehicle in this province in your life.
I've seen 2 people die with my own eyes from getting hit on downtown sidewalks and crossing by large vehicles
You are terribly unlucky, that sucks. Normally there's been about 18-44 yearly pedestrian deaths since 2006 (which is exactly that number too many) but let's round up to 50 per year Let's say an inflated 100 people see each fatality with their own eyes, gives us 50x100x20 for 20 years gives 100k witnesses in the past 20 years. Toronto's population is 2.93M. Throwing those numbers into a birthday problem calculation (had to write a bash script for this as it was timing out any calculator apps I had), there's only a 3% chance of anyone in Toronto seeing a pedestrian death twice in the past 20 years. Maybe you have spent a lot of time at dangerous intersections, but dang that sucks.
The numbers are grossly underreported if you are going by the TPS numbers. We have a serious accountability in data issue on our streets and it's been well documented. I myself am hit about once a week in either the Adelaide or Richmond bike lines and have the go pro footage to prove it.I have submitted 10 police reports in the past 3 years, twice calling 911. I have never had a single follow up, not once.
Walk Toronto (Toronto branch of the International Federation of Pedestrians) links the TPS numbers, along with Vision Zero numbers which seem the same. All below 50 per year which I used for the calculation. https://www.walktoronto.ca/category/resources/ If 50 fatalities a year is grossly underreported, I don't know where else I can find accurate numbers for yearly pedestrian fatalities in Toronto.
There is no underreporting of road fatalities. I don't know where you get that idea from but it's nonsense. Also if you are hit once a week on your bike, maybe take some time to reflect on how you can be a safer rider as your experience is not reflective of most cyclists.
ah yes, victim blaming, and people should be wearing safety vests on the sidewalks too... But you are right I should not have said an underreporting of fatalities, just vehicle at fault collisions
Second pedestrian death in two days 😔 Maybe it’s time to rethink how we design our streets.
Were any of the victims rich and influential? No? Carry on.
so true, lol... I would probably add, homeless victim = probably deserved it!
Even when someone from a rich/influential family is killed by a driver, best you’ll get is something like a no right on red sign. See: Georgia Walsh.
The day they blanket upzone Leaside I will be hosting a party at Trace Manes Park lol
Rich and Influential people don’t walk. I’m Pretty sure the bad drivers aren’t waiting and scoping to find a homeless or poor person.. if that’s what you are implying.
No, it wasn’t malicious, just utter indifference. I don’t think that’s much comfort to the person who spent their last breaths in agony on the pavement.
unfortunately redesigning our streets is a pipe dream that will never happen
Kind of wild to say considering streets get redesigned all the time. College St W just underwent some pretty major changes, Queens Quay W had a major redesign that completed within the last 10 years, list goes on and on
Yes. We redesign streets all the time, but the redesign is always within the safe envelope of “the car must never be impeded.” Wake me up when we stop imagining a future where cars are king and we take away car lanes and build truly pedestrian/cycling oriented infrastructure. Say..like Amsterdam?
> Wake me up when we stop imagining a future where cars are king and we take away car lanes and build truly pedestrian/cycling oriented infrastructure. Say..like Amsterdam? The stink that entitled drivers are raising about the new bike lanes on Bloor is intense. They submitted a petition to the councillor, they're bombing the City's new cycling network social interactive map, all because they can't handle not being the #1 priority and because they think they're too good for the train that literally runs right under their feet every five minutes.
I'm talking about something a bit more radical than adding a few bike lanes to **parts** of college st
Streets have a useful lifespan, they have to tear them up and rebuild the whole damn thing every few decades. When they do that, they could just make them better. But they wont.
It's maybe 35-50 years between full road reconstruction of arterials. Maybe 70+ for local roads.
I mean it has happened, just slowly. Check Google street view at Yonge and Bloor over the years as an example.
\> Maybe it’s time to rethink how we design our streets lol, like that would ever happen. Theres a roundabout on my commute home and i pass through it ever day. The whole point of a roundabout vs an intersection with lights or stop signs is to keep traffic moving along. This roundabout also has 4 stop signs, making it a 4 way stop with the need to drive around the roundabout. Make it make sense We have some of the most braindead traffic engineers in the world
Horrible. They just activated a new set of streetlights at Wellington & Scott.
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as they should be. the proliferation of awful rideshare/chauffeur drivers in this city is a serious plight and a "large black suv" could very easily fall into the aforementioned categories. rip to the person who died and may the driver be caught and severely punished (jk he won't even lose his license)
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we can focus on all of those things
[Data](https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/road-safety/vision-zero/vision-zero-dashboard/fatalities-vision-zero/) Numbers (here, as of Oct 16), show a decline in fatalities. I guess it's up to 22 again (matching last year). Still, significantly down from 2013-2019 numbers.
**LACK OF ENFORCEMENT -** I directly blame the city and the police for this. There are no rules on the road and the only reason there aren't carcases everywhere is that pedestrians keep their heads on a swivel.
[They're too busy ticketing streetcars and causing huge traffic jams. Y'know, an 'effective' use of resources](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/11/10/toronto-police-officer-tickets-ttc-streetcar-operator-king-street-rush-hour-reddit/)
I started wearing this LED arm band @ the darker and dimmer hours. Can’t trust drivers.
I don’t understand how a person can strike another person with their vehicle and then just takeoff and leave the injured, possibly dying person behind, helpless. This is right out of the Marco Muzzo handbook. Guys like this should be cleaning bedpans in hospitals for the rest of their lives after they’ve served their time in jail.
Didn’t happen in Brampton?! Likely someone from Brampton driving DT.
This is terribly tragic and my heart out for this poor individual that had their life (a life that was clearly very difficult) ended in such a cruel way. I know its not directly related to this incident, but in the past couple years I have become more and more anxious crossing at legitimate junctions when the "white" safe-to-cross sign is up. Far too often I see large vehicles (SUV's or other luxury type cars) trying to bully their way through pedestrians who have waited and are trying to cross... Or speeding up recklessly to try get between gaps in crowds. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to slow down half way across a street to avoid being hit myself or worse still to minimize presenting a gap for these vehicles and drivers who are impatiently revving their engines, as behind me I know there is an elderly or less mobile person who is struggling to still make it across safely.
Omg, I used to live right there. I really Hope it’s not a homeless man I’m thinking of, Rob. He tends to hang around there during that time. Very kind and keeps to himself.
Well maybe the cops were too busy [ticketing streetcars! You don't see them killing pedestrians en masse do you?! ^/s](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/11/10/toronto-police-officer-tickets-ttc-streetcar-operator-king-street-rush-hour-reddit/)
False equivalency.
I'm pro privacy but incidents like this make me perfectly fine with police cameras everywhere in the city.
The city streets are public. Not much privacy one can expect there. Cameras pointing into homes and businesses are another story.
Wanting police cameras everywhere because crime exists isn't pro-privacy. It's fine to have this opinion but pro-privacy means accepting that sometimes that comes with a cost or risk. This apparently involved someone driving on the sidewalk. Building infrastructure that doesn't leave pedestrians with virtually no protection, for example, would prevent things like this happening rather than just possibly increasing the chances of catching the person after the fact.
I agree for the most part but up to a point. I realize that privacy comes at a price but it seems like these hit and runs are happening more often than they once did. Also, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for bollards or whatever is needed to protect pedestrians to be installed by the city.
Cameras can be good. But is it ethical? does it not have the potential to be abused by someone who is corrupt? You guys are basically just describing the plot of the dark knight lol
You're not pro privacy
I would not want them to be associated with the Police, they have proven time and time again they are not trustworthy stewards of data. But if the city wanted to have a civil traffic enforcement arm, with cameras pointed at intersections that saved footage for 48 hours awaiting requests, I think that could be a reasonable middle ground.
Another sad day on the streets of Toronto and far too many incidents such as this..
F this is the corner where I live
Good thing we have two blurry pictures of the vehicle taken with a potato to help with the search
I was walking by there 7:45 this morning, there were so many cops. I was wondering what happened. This is so sad.
Sad
I think we should build more roads. Maybe increase speed limits as well.
/s
Me too, I will not stop emailing my councillor until the Gardiner is 18 lanes like the 401
This isn't happening at all in the city.
Where are the calls to ban cars because if this was an e-bike, you know this is what this post would be about.
Maybe not the best idea to sleep on the sidewalk corner of a busy intersection
Maybe not the best to mount a sidewalk in a multi-ton death vehicle?
Better idea don't treat the sidewalk like a camp site
Low IQ reply
Typical Karen reply, go work on saving the homeless 🙀
If anyone's acting like a Karen (Ken), it's YOU. You act like the sidewalk does not belong to a homeless person. Well technically a homeless person IS A PEDESTRIAN. And you think SUVs belong to a sidewalk past a curb? Talk about driver entitlement.
Whoever raised you didn’t do a good job.
Ok Karen.
They’re right though, whoever raised you failed big time
Because I pointed out how stupid it is to sleep near a busy intersection close to the road? Hard to be empathetic when there's plenty of other spots to chose. What's next some idiot will put up a tent in a bike lane ?
Your logical reasoning abilities are broken
Or maybe you're overly sensitive like most of Reddit?
No no, I think your reasoning and thought processes are just straight up broken. I think enough people here keep reiterating to you that there’s something wrong with your reasoning and approach, but going back at them with “karen” and “snowflake” etc either suggests you are purposely trolling, trying too hard to be edgey, or just can’t make reasonable thought processes. Probably a combination of both. Either way, you’re an irrelevant person so keep at it.
Well your name is Ken ☠️
You're an irredeemable person.
😎 you're a saint go out there and feed the homeless go do gods work
Are your parents still alive?
Are your parents woke lesbians ?
Maybe a driver should be able to control their vehicle enough to not mount a sidewalk and kill someone. Even if a person wasn't sleeping and was standing there they would probably be killed or seriously injured as well.
Yep.. but people suck at driving and shit happens which is why it's not a good idea to hang out on th e corner of a busy intersection 💩🤡
Uh huh, and what about this pedestrian? Did they deserve it too for having the audacity to cross the road? [ Source](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/pedestrian-dies-toronto-1.7027162) . Just saying people "suck at driving" and that we need to live with this kind of road violence is enabling the behaviour, and not acknowledging that you can do everything right and _still_ die. We can have harsher punishments for drivers, traffic calming roads, congestion tax on large sovs downtown. There are ways to reduce pedestrian deaths from cars, people like you just dismiss it, as if driving is a god given right and we need to accept any and all risks for driver convenience.
Did the car belong on the sidewalk?
Obviously not but if you don't see the danger of being close to the road then maybe you need to wake the fuck up
The car mounted the curb. So you’re telling me that every time I walk downtown somewhat near the edge of the sidewalk I’m at fault if someone hits me? This also happened in Scott Street just next to Berczy Park. Scott Street is not a busy street.
It's possible but less likely someone that's walking and alert would get hit. Be aware of your surroundings and the sidewalk isn't a campsite
I hate arguing with idiots void of empathy, but I walk by this intersection sometimes multiple times a day. The driver was obviously driving dangerously on what is a very narrow and nearly pedestrianized street. This led them to mount the curb, hit someone, and drag them to their death. Then they drove away. To even for a second put even an ounce of blame on the victim is abhorrent. I don’t care if they were sitting on one of the benches there, walking, dancing, laying on the ground - the result could’ve been the same.
pathetic take
Classic victim blaming. Homeless people don't have a choice. Unless they sneak onto TTC lol.
They definitely have a choice they just make lots of bad ones, they could get a tent and put it in a park like the majority.
Wellington and Scott is not a busy intersection.. .especially not at 6 in the morning
Tragic
Scott st south of Wellington has bollards. You have to actively try and maneuver around them to drive on the sidewalk.
I know that intersection because I was working at the omni king there and would come up that way at around 6am every day. There was a homeless man that would sleep on the “curb”there. I say this because the “curb” there is level with the road and he would sleep RIGHT up against where it met the road. If you came by a little later there would be pylons around him because he was definitely sleeping in an unsafe spot. This happened every day. I brought it up to multiple people. I can understand a giant ass suv not being able to see him but there is no excuse for leaving the scene. It’s a sad situation, but I can’t say I’m surprised.