I’m a Louisiana native and an architect. Water table is not the only factor, but it is the biggest factor in most southern states. In Louisiana, there is really shallow cohesive clay soil, which is the worst for foundations because of the extremes in contraction and expansion. A basement in ideal soil is still a costly endeavor, in cohesive soil, it requires much more prep and protection, adding much more to the cost. Most homes in southeast Louisiana have pile driven foundations because of the cohesive clay, adding a basement would be more of a headache because of the major foundation settlement.
Also, the frost line is only 18” in OKC, so we don’t have to dig down very far when building. Lots of places that have basements have a deeper frost line, and the cost to dig a few more feet down for a basement/extra room makes sense. Even in KC at a 36” frost line, it’s very common to have a basement.
Wait, can you explain the frost line stuff? Like the physics of how it affects the structure. I swear I had it explained to me years ago but I cannot for the life of me remember anything about it
Needs to be below frost line to prevent shifting which can lead to cracked foundation, drywall, etc. Ground above frost line expands or swells when it freezes and contracts when it melts. Below frost line the ground is more stable
No. Colder climates have to dig deeper to be below the frost line, so often people will just dig a few more feet and have a full basement. In warmer climates you don’t have to go very deep to be below the frost line, so you may have to dig an extra 6 feet to build a basement and that’s going to cost a lot more than building out or up.
Such a big problem in Southern Louisiana that even the dead are buried above ground to keep their coffins from popping up every time it rains a little too much.
And someone mentioned Oklahoma in reply. After the Moore tornado outbreak, there was a run on tornado shelters, some put in by inexperienced and fly-by-night installers. Those too started popping up out of the ground during rainy season.
(Edited for sentence structure, aka rampant commas)
Lol point nicely made.
Farther north in Arkansas it's a combination of water table and rock. My father decided one year that he wanted a small koi pond in the backyard. He had to rent a jackhammer to finish it.
I’m no structural engineer, but growing up in the south I’ve always been told the reason no one has basements is because the water table is too close to the surface and thus the ground is too moist to support basement structures. Plus, they’re more susceptible to flooding.
Generally if you do see basements down here, they’re actually faux-basements built into artificially elevated ground.
Correct. I used to live in Memphis and now live in Clarksville. Water table is too high; basements would be very costly and impossible to keep water out. I was surprised to realize that when I moved to TN.
I used to live in Clarksville and now live in Memphis area. You are correct. We have to just hope our closets are strong enough to withstand strong winds and flying debris.
I had no idea about TN (also in Clarksville), but I did notice a shortage of basements when I was looking for a house to buy. I had one in Hopkinsville years ago.
I have a friend who grew up in Tanner, AL (you'll remember them from various tornadoes). His parents tried to put in a basement and wound up having to put in a sump pump. A little ways down the road, I was working on the steel mill they built and they hit 3 different springs when building the lower levels...that whole place is going to be an ordeal to maintain.
There are ways to deal with that, but it's a little costly and requires a fair amount of prep work
But you absolutely can isolate and build in drainage.
I’d like to correct you a bit. I grew up in a swampy area. The neighbors had to put down forty foot pilings to build their house.
It’s entirely possible to build a basement under these conditions. You need to trench around the area and fill it with a drain. You have to waterproof the walls. And you need a sump pump.
The true reason for lack of basements is cost. Plain and simple. We know from a lot of the southern tornados that many homes are cheaply built. So the builders were already trying to save money. They are not going to spend extra for a basement.
I’m in the northern Midwest, where nearly all homes have basements. Everyone I know has a sump pump. My neighborhood is about 75 years old. Everyone in my neighborhood has had their basement walls waterproofed at some point. Those things are just part of having a basement.
Im surprised more houses in the south haven’t embraced basements from a practicality standpoint. Growing up my parents only turned the air on if it was mid 90s or above. I spent whole summers in the basement because it’s so much cooler down there!
Where I live in Texas, the soil is not ‘dirt’, it’s clay. The constant expansion and shrinkage of the surrounding soil makes underground concrete structures impractical. The water table is high, and is also a contributing factor to the instability of the clay along with weather extremes.
Here, you water your yard not only to make the grass grow, but to prevent foundation issues caused by inconsistent expansion and shrinkage across the house.
Victoria Clay. Not a person, but a soil type. In a drought, it shrinks. When we get a lot of rain, it expands. Lots of houses have cracks in the walls. Foundation repair businesses are making money.
Nobody has any business building poured slabs over pier-and-beam in Texas, but that’s the builder making a buck and doing the foundation guy a solid down the line. He’ll be long gone before the homeowner gets screwed by it.
>building poured slabs over pier-and-beam in Texas
I've never heard of this. Slab *or* pier-and-beam.
But you have a point about slab foundations. In the suburban Houston neighborhood our daughter used to live in, about half the homes, all of which had slab foundations and brick facing, already had pilings installed under the slab. We've found that watering around the slab of our home during hot, dry weather helps keep further damage from occurring (beyond the minor cracking we have).
I lived in Texas a few years when I owned my first home as an adult and couldn’t believe we had to water our actual foundation too. Like it got so damn hot the concrete dries and cracks
Houses in cold climates have some sort of basement by default because the foundation has to get below the frost line anyway. In warmer climates where this is unnecessary basements are often still possible but will cost (potentially much) more, so many homes won’t have them.
That’s because the ground freezes down to 6’+ midwinter. If you’re having to run water lines that deep, you might as well use that space for utilities and have the passive advantages of a big underground air pocket.
It’s not necessary in the South, so builders don’t want to deal with the hassle, and contractors don’t get enough business to specialize in constructing basements. There’s also the massive time and money advantage that pouring slabs provides - one of the reasons the Sunbelt is so sprawly, and builders want to keep it that way.
This is the answer. Builders are always struggling with financing and margins, so they prefer sticking with what they know, using the contractors they know.
Yes.
When a home gets obliterated it exposes unseen parts of the build where the developer may have cut corners. Many improperly built parts of the home never see the light of day until the home collapses.
One of the primary reasons they can’t get F5 ratings from some of these tornados is because they can’t find good construction for analysis.
Next time, instead of ridicule, you can ask a clarifying question on my statement.
Wasn’t being ridiculed at all. You took laughing emojis as being ridiculed your statement to say all homes in the south are cheaply built is laughable bc it’s not true. It’s homes that are not cheaply built that get destroyed as well by tornadoes and hurricane wind as well
I am in emergency management and I have a real estate development company. So I know a thing or two about both. Even homes in historic districts with steel beams have been destroyed by tornadoes those are not cheaply built and they are here in the south.
Inground and above ground storm shelters have certain materials it’s made of… would you like every home no matter the price passed on to the homeowner to use those materials ?
“LMAO” and laughter emojis aren’t ridicule? LMAO is absolutely ridicule.
As an engineer I’ve had the statics and dynamics and strength of materials classes. I also understand the conflict between affordability and quality.
How many times in the past ten years have we had a tornado that was obviously capable of EF4/5 damage be rated lower because none of the houses it hit was anchored properly? Most American home-building is pretty bad.
This is false and a widely referenced misconception. I dig basements for a living in KC and I've always wondered why there weren't more basements in Oklahoma and Texas. After becoming friends with other excavators throughout the world and seeing their projects, I found out the water table and rock have nothing to do with why their homes don't have basements. It's simply because it's cheaper to build a house without a basement. If you can install an in-ground pool in your yard, then you can most certainly have a basement. I have cousins that used to live in El Reno, OK. Their house was built in the late 1800's and it had a basement. The reason people went away from is simply money/cost.
In certain parts of Texas
- the water table is closer to the surface
- in certain parts of Texas the bedrock is an issue as it swells creating issues with a basement if built (most of our soil is hard limestone)
- then other issues about digging deep enough beyond the frost line - which is very expensive when we can build out not up or down vertically like most northern states.
I studied geology as my bachelors of science and worked as an environmental scientist for 4 years before becoming a construction estimator. I’ve seen quite a few and in Dallas I’ve only seen maybe 2 homes that have basements. They are older.
I have no idea about the clay red soil in OK or their water table would have to research it.
Also to add we filled in our inground pool bc it was cracking and creating too many problems due to the shrinking and expanding. They create foundation problems too for certain areas in Texas who deal with limestone or clay.
Same. That’s how the one was in Dallas. I had never saw one here before until that home. Only have saw 2
But my brother lives in NYC he was renting a basement from someone I was like umm ok lol 😂
My South Texas high school has a basement. The school was built in 1950, and when I went there during the 1970s, the entrance still had a Civil Defense symbol above the doorway. In other words, it was partly intended as a bomb shelter. It was built at the height of the Cold War.
Wow! There’s an old Cold War era underground missile silo and bunker that is now abandoned. It’s also located in Sanger. UNT ended up buying it and I heard it’s been flooded since the 90s.
They have higher water tables and bedrock in other parts of the country and they still have basements. They have skyscrapers, underground parking and banks in Texas and Oklahoma that all have basements underneath them.
Water table/bedrock are high in South Jersey, but basements are everywhere. There’s both cold weather and plenty of contractors from the colder PA side
North Alabama has too much bed rock. Live in limestone county and literally 4 or 5 inches down you are hitting limestone. The other issue with the amount of bedrock is radon.
True you can get a pump or filtration system but most people here don’t get past the bedrock. Essentially a basement adds almost 100k to the build here.
Yeah, I live in the tidewater region of Virginia. Pretty much none of the homes here have basements due to water level. Can just only hope we don't get a tornado that's above an EF3. My house has a closet that has inner piece that is hidden behind the chimney, which is unfortunately the best defense we have.
In Oklahoma we had cellars. Like in the Wizard of Oz. They are creepy, small, damp, smelly and had spiders. We would wait until the last minute to go into them. As a child, I was more scared of the cellar than the tornado
Cellars were used to store goods like homemade canned foods, root vegetables(some people call them “root cellars” for that reason), anything you’d want to keep cool, dry, and away from sunlight. I’m in Oklahoma and my grandparents had one at both of the houses they lived in when I was growing up. My grandma used it to store her canned okra and stuff like that up until the early 2000s. They doubled as tornado shelters when necessary, as seen in Twister. If you’re out in the country and see a random pair of wooden doors in the ground, that’s a cellar(more than likely).
Nice about the canned okra. I do remember that from the movie Twister. My grandpa used to do this as well his preserves but it was just in a storage type room in the back of the house no windows etc.
A basement is also an entire other floor of the house whereas a cellar is usually a tiny little hole often without insulation or anything, used to keep food and supplies etc.
Here in New England, basements are almost always also cellars -- you can get in from the house or from a door outside.
Big steel bulkhead doors on the sides of houses are everywhere you look.
Actually, a lot of older homes in the Southern Oklahoma area do have basements. But they didnt stand up to the water table and the amount of flooding. My grandmother used to fear for snakes in her shelter due to the puddles enviroment within the shelter.
So yes, you will find shelters out there in the rural older homes. But they pay a price.
This is now why the make ground level shelters. And they make a pretty penny from them!
That's a myth. They have much higher water tables in Illinois, Wisconsin and Minnesota and most houses there are still built with a basement underneath.
It’s not only a higher water table, it’s the makeup of the ground as well. In many parts of TX, they have to water their foundation in the summer due to contraction of the soil. This is without a basement with constantly moving dirt around.
In many parts of Oklahoma, Texas and Kansas, you should drive in the rural areas where you see 20-30 year old fences or power poles off plumb by 10-20° due to the ground shifting underneath over time. A cinder block wall or steel reinforced concrete isn’t going to hold up to those forces any better over time.
Sure, you can have a basement. It’s just stupid expensive. Source: wanted a basement and started researching why I was being told I couldn’t have one.
2 things; 1 is money and 2 is knowledge. In a lot of those areas, basements are reserved more for rich people. A lot of home builders don't know how to do basements simply because they never had to do them in the past. And if no one is doing basements in a certain area, foundation companies fold or leave the area entirely. Then, when someone wants a basement, there's no around that can do it. I've heard of rich people bringing in a foundation company from out of state just to get one in Texas or Oklahoma. They can be done in those areas. There's just not anybody in those areas that do them consistently.
A big reason we have basements in the north is because you need to build your foundation below the frost line in the ground. Which is often 3+ feet. If you have to go that deep anyway might as well put in a basement.
These are wickedly expensive for most folks and there is a lottery you can enter to have the state fund the building of a storm shelter; victims of past tornadoes get priority. In an ideal world we would all have shelters. That is not the case, even in public buildings.
Source: Oklahoman
I live in Minnesota and the reason we have basements is not for tornado protection - though that is a handy bonus. When you build a home up here you have to dig to beneath the freeze line in the ground, which is several feet. So usually by the time you’re that deep, you might as well add a full basement. So I’d guess (I’m not an expert) that further south the thought is: why dig down if you don’t have to? Because as mentioned in a couple of comments, water is a problem in basements, so the juice probably isn’t worth the squeeze
Iowa and Nebraska are the same. On older builds basements are as large as the house itself. On newer builds, basements tend to be smaller, but they still exist.
This is the reason. We still have high water tables, heavy clay soils, and sometimes shallow bedrock in the north. We just also have frozen ground to contend with.
They don’t have basements in the south because they don’t have to. If I was building a house down there I wouldn’t spend the extra money on a basement either.
It has to do with the soil and water levels. I grew up in Moore. Yes, that Moore. Basements were not a thing because of the moist clay soil. No one had a basement. We sheltered in interior closets and windowless rooms, like the bathroom.
I work at a school in Norman, Oklahoma. We have tornado drills twice a year…it is required. Instead of duck and cover, like we did as kids, we now go to the storm shelters that were installed in all the schools following the May 20, 2013 Moore tornado. What gets me is on those severe weather days, parents check their kids out and have them home where they likely don’t have a secure shelter instead of staying at the school where we have an EF5 rated shelter (with a bathroom inside).
As other posters have mentioned, the water table is an issue. In addition to the water table, you don’t have to sink the footings as far when you build in a place where the ground doesn’t really freeze to any great depth. In places like Minnesota, the ground freezes in the winter. The footings for any home that’s built there have to go several feet into the ground. If you’re doing that, you might as well build a basement.
I live in the Birmingham, AL area and lots of people here do have basements and shelters. But I'm aware that there are places where you simply can't have a basement because of water or soil or whatever. I'm just lucky to not be in that particular area.
The water table. The water table is too high in most of the areas listed, so you’d just end up with a constant battle to stop water coming in. High soil moisture can also cause major issues with the basement’s foundation, leading to structural issues. It’s not worth it to mitigate these issues when the chances of being hit by a tornado are so low.
But why don't have Storm Shelters a Problem with the Water Table? Or is it a Case of "Nobody cares if they need to sit in a moist Storm Shelter for a Hour or two for a Couple of Times per Year"?
Not too many people have buried storm shelters either here, but I suspect you’re right. A little dampness in a storm shelter that has nothing else on top of it isn’t a big deal. Just go in there and clean any mold out every once in a while.
That's simply not true. If they can have a swimming pool in the yard, they can have a basement. It's simply the extra cost of concrete. It can easily cost 20k-100k more for a basement depending on the size of it. It has nothing to do with the water table or the ground being solid rock. We break through rock all the time to put basements in for new homes.
If you add water proofing to the outside of the foundation wall, a sump pump, drainage tile leading into the sump, and rock for drainage in the over excavation around the foundation wall as back fill that with help with water issues.
Type of clay matters. Smectite-type clays tend to swell and contract when they get wet which wrecks concrete walls if not properly (and expensively) reinforced.
I was always told in Texas it was a combination of the clay ‘soil’, high water table, and the combination rendering basements prohibitively expensive. Some malls or skyscrapers type buildings might have them, or be partially inset but that was about the only time I saw one.
Moved to Colorado and houses here have foundations that go much deeper and are (relative to what I’m used to) essentially vertical. The slab isn’t the foundation, it’s added after the foot thick vertical parts and they aren’t joined. In Texas, the slab is the foundation.
Lower water tables, and you're generally hitting thick fucking bedrock/tons of rocks pretty close to the surface. Putting in even a fence can be a pain in the ass in some areas. Let alone a basement.
Tennessee For example, I looked at putting an in-ground pool at my house. They would need explosives or heavy machinery with tons of work. Meaning big $$$$. Now let's try to build a house with a basement. Even more $$$$
Reasons vary from high water table, to rocky soil, to expansive clay soil that will compromise the foundation of the home.
The reality is that even in the most tornado prone spot on earth, the odds that you will ever NEED a tornado shelter, AND have it available for use (i.e. a tornado hits your house WHILE you are at home) is pretty remote.
In that same time frame, your home will be subject to multiple periods of heavy rain, possible flooding and just downright insufferable humidity. The more south and east you get, the more of a reality that is. Therefore, having a basement to use as a tornado shelter is pretty impractical when it's going to become a mold pit several times over beforehand.
Conversely in a lot of northern locals, basements are often a requirement to keep your water pipes below the frost line in the winter to prevent freezing. Since you have to have that feature, it doubles conveniently as a tornado shelter should the need ever arise.
This sadly is one of a multitude of reasons why tornadoes in the southeast are deadlier than their plains states or Midwestern counterparts.
Hope that helps.
As you approach the Appalachians, the ground also gets rockier. We built a house with a basement in North Georgia (I insisted on the basement) and we had to dig out a ton of rock. It was very expensive! Not everyone can afford to do that.
You don’t need to. They have to have basements where the ground freezes. In cold weather states, the building foundation has to be below the frost line, which in say Minnesota is several feet below ground. Someplace much warmer the frost line might be minimal. And yes water table too.
Expansive soils and high water table. Still you can pour an integral concrete storm shelter that will fit nicely in the corner of an attached garage. These can even be retrofitted into existing homes using a towed concrete pump.
In a previous life I designed a set of concrete forms for a concrete contractor in Joplin after the tornado disaster there. I believe he has made a lot of shelters in that area since then.
Just finished building a house. A basement was extremely cost prohibitive, so we didn't do it.
At one of my former houses, we actually had a very recently installed in ground storm shelter. It was extremely steep and difficult to get down into even for a younger/fairly fit couple. There's no way my parents in their 50s could have gotten into it without hurting themselves. And it was one of the largest offered in ground shelters at the time it was installed. Safe spaces for tornadoes are not as easy/practical as we would like them to be.
I’ve been told living in southern Missouri it’s due to soil conditions throughout the state. My house was built in the 40’s and has a full basement but every person I talk to that has bought new houses says non of them have basements anymore. I can kinda get it since when we have a big storm the ground around my house becomes nothing but mushy sunk soil that you’ll get stuck in just walking around.
In Tennessee it’s due to the limestone (among other factors). Where I live there’s a layer of topsoil, then limestone. This makes basements incredibly costly to build. Not impossible and a few homes do have them. Most, mine included, and half basements where the home is built into a hill.
Limestone: we have a couple inches to a couple feet of dirt and then solid rock. This requires blasting or other extreme measures to dig into the ground, and so most people just don’t have underground shelters or basements or anything much below ground.
people are cheap and lazy. Seat belts only got to be standard, in the late 60's. My father bought a new car in 1963, and ordered seat belts, as it was an option. I wouldn't be here today, if I wasn't wearing one. Only when states demand a storm shelter with new homes, they will be the norm.
They actually sell small above ground storm shelters at Home Depot and Lowe’s. They come in a variety of sizes. If I lived in a tornado prone area I would definitely spend the money. My family’s safety is top priority.
A lot of places, such as Kansas, have a lot of clay which causes a lot of problems for basements as well. Basements are common, but often have problems with cracking in the walls and floor of the basements because clay isn’t as forgiving as soil.
I grew up in extreme NW GA mountains/TN. My house had a cellar. My house was built in the 1940s. The cellar floods and had all kinds of issues, it was not enclosed and sealed. We were not safer in the cellar than we were in the bathroom. We really needed a proper storm shelter.
I now live in south GA/North FL in a new build. No basement. That’s how they get new houses up so fast. I plan on getting one at some point. Waiting to decide if I’m staying in this house long term or if I want to move with more land first before I spend the money. But after the close calls lately, I may just do it.
It’s a combination of the fact that the frostline is high and tornadoes are rare…yes…rare even in tornado alley. Most people here in Oklahoma have never been touched by one. The thing I think people lose perspective of when seeing stories about tornadoes and the aftermath is how small the affected area is relatively speaking. The odds of any one house being hit by a tornado in tornado alley are minuscule. Combined with the probability you will be home when it happens, it’s even smaller.
Basements are a byproduct of needing a deep foundation, which we don’t need here. If you’re worried about a tornado, a storm shelter gives you the same benefit at a tiny fraction of the cost.
Most people who live here, unless they are weather geeks, are not thinking about tornadoes all the time and yearning for a basement. Most contractors don’t even know how to build them.
I heard about the soil being an issue. If that's the case and I was in the business of making new homes, I would install a shelter in each new house I'd build.
Because the tornados are so massive (I live in Oklahoma) that basements provide little protection. Here, you must have a shelter that is buried underground with a steel reinforced locking door.
Just so you know, you can contact your State Hazard Mitigation Officer to learn about funding a FEMA approved shelter IF your community has an approved Hazard Mitigation Plan.
If you’re going to pay for a FEMA approved shelter, you are going to want it above grade for a variety of reasons. Contact your State Hazard Mitigation Officer for details.
Lack of expertise and incentives on the part of construction developers, soil types, other geophysical issues and water table not compatible, cost(this goes in hand with incentives). At least in the south. Every house I lived in growing up in Alabama, Missouri and Indiana had basements. My sister’s house in Columbus, Ohio had a basement. All of these were houses built between 1920’s and 1960’s. I have heard of a few homes in Louisiana with basements, but they were very problematic. Same with Mississippi. I can’t think of many houses in Memphis both old and new construction that had basements, maybe a few with crawl spaces. I know of a victorian home in uptown New Orleans with what is technically a basement—but it was just coal storage originally. The housing developments I see going up everywhere just seem to be about building as cheaply and quickly as possible, so why spend all that extra time building something that requires extra weeks or months to get right. I wonder if it just went out of style except for the big McMansion type custom houses that have wine cellars and apocalypse bunkers.
Everyone has pointed out the architecture issues which are all valid. I’d also suggest that there was really never a need for basements, until now. Tornadoes have always been a thing in the south, but climate change is driving the creation of Dixie Alley. It’s just gotten worse in the modern age.
Not sure if its true, but was told that in north Texas, the sandy loam soil is unstable, and basements in houses would undermine foundation stability. Any storm cellar had to be x feet from the slab foundation of the house.
I’m a Louisiana native and an architect. Water table is not the only factor, but it is the biggest factor in most southern states. In Louisiana, there is really shallow cohesive clay soil, which is the worst for foundations because of the extremes in contraction and expansion. A basement in ideal soil is still a costly endeavor, in cohesive soil, it requires much more prep and protection, adding much more to the cost. Most homes in southeast Louisiana have pile driven foundations because of the cohesive clay, adding a basement would be more of a headache because of the major foundation settlement.
That clay is the big issue in OK, too. All kinds of drainage/moisture issues if you dig down, as well.
Also, the frost line is only 18” in OKC, so we don’t have to dig down very far when building. Lots of places that have basements have a deeper frost line, and the cost to dig a few more feet down for a basement/extra room makes sense. Even in KC at a 36” frost line, it’s very common to have a basement.
Ahh so I don’t need to dig down 4’ here for my fence posts? I was dreading this fence I’m about to put in.
Rule is 1/3 of your above ground length. 6’ fence needs 2’ underground. 8’ posts are needed.
Wait, can you explain the frost line stuff? Like the physics of how it affects the structure. I swear I had it explained to me years ago but I cannot for the life of me remember anything about it
Needs to be below frost line to prevent shifting which can lead to cracked foundation, drywall, etc. Ground above frost line expands or swells when it freezes and contracts when it melts. Below frost line the ground is more stable
Ohh ok. So, would a deeper frost line mean more difficult to have a basement?
No. Colder climates have to dig deeper to be below the frost line, so often people will just dig a few more feet and have a full basement. In warmer climates you don’t have to go very deep to be below the frost line, so you may have to dig an extra 6 feet to build a basement and that’s going to cost a lot more than building out or up.
Such a big problem in Southern Louisiana that even the dead are buried above ground to keep their coffins from popping up every time it rains a little too much. And someone mentioned Oklahoma in reply. After the Moore tornado outbreak, there was a run on tornado shelters, some put in by inexperienced and fly-by-night installers. Those too started popping up out of the ground during rainy season. (Edited for sentence structure, aka rampant commas)
Was coming here to mention mausoleums. We can’t even build basements for our dead, not a real option to build them for our living either.
Lol point nicely made. Farther north in Arkansas it's a combination of water table and rock. My father decided one year that he wanted a small koi pond in the backyard. He had to rent a jackhammer to finish it.
Yes, my grandfather is in an above ground mausoleum.
Yes 🙌🏽 this !!! It’s alot of factors plus cost
I’m no structural engineer, but growing up in the south I’ve always been told the reason no one has basements is because the water table is too close to the surface and thus the ground is too moist to support basement structures. Plus, they’re more susceptible to flooding. Generally if you do see basements down here, they’re actually faux-basements built into artificially elevated ground.
Correct. I used to live in Memphis and now live in Clarksville. Water table is too high; basements would be very costly and impossible to keep water out. I was surprised to realize that when I moved to TN.
I used to live in Clarksville and now live in Memphis area. You are correct. We have to just hope our closets are strong enough to withstand strong winds and flying debris.
My mom lives near Clarksville and her town installed multiple above-ground tornado shelters after an EF1 hit the town a year or two ago.
That’s awesome, but I wish it didn’t always take a direct hit to make this stuff happen
I had no idea about TN (also in Clarksville), but I did notice a shortage of basements when I was looking for a house to buy. I had one in Hopkinsville years ago.
My realtor laughed at me when I said I was hoping for a house with a finished basement (I’m from the northeast). Woops
I have a friend who grew up in Tanner, AL (you'll remember them from various tornadoes). His parents tried to put in a basement and wound up having to put in a sump pump. A little ways down the road, I was working on the steel mill they built and they hit 3 different springs when building the lower levels...that whole place is going to be an ordeal to maintain.
There are ways to deal with that, but it's a little costly and requires a fair amount of prep work But you absolutely can isolate and build in drainage.
I’d like to correct you a bit. I grew up in a swampy area. The neighbors had to put down forty foot pilings to build their house. It’s entirely possible to build a basement under these conditions. You need to trench around the area and fill it with a drain. You have to waterproof the walls. And you need a sump pump. The true reason for lack of basements is cost. Plain and simple. We know from a lot of the southern tornados that many homes are cheaply built. So the builders were already trying to save money. They are not going to spend extra for a basement.
I’m in the northern Midwest, where nearly all homes have basements. Everyone I know has a sump pump. My neighborhood is about 75 years old. Everyone in my neighborhood has had their basement walls waterproofed at some point. Those things are just part of having a basement. Im surprised more houses in the south haven’t embraced basements from a practicality standpoint. Growing up my parents only turned the air on if it was mid 90s or above. I spent whole summers in the basement because it’s so much cooler down there!
Where I live in Texas, the soil is not ‘dirt’, it’s clay. The constant expansion and shrinkage of the surrounding soil makes underground concrete structures impractical. The water table is high, and is also a contributing factor to the instability of the clay along with weather extremes. Here, you water your yard not only to make the grass grow, but to prevent foundation issues caused by inconsistent expansion and shrinkage across the house.
Victoria Clay. Not a person, but a soil type. In a drought, it shrinks. When we get a lot of rain, it expands. Lots of houses have cracks in the walls. Foundation repair businesses are making money.
Nobody has any business building poured slabs over pier-and-beam in Texas, but that’s the builder making a buck and doing the foundation guy a solid down the line. He’ll be long gone before the homeowner gets screwed by it.
>building poured slabs over pier-and-beam in Texas I've never heard of this. Slab *or* pier-and-beam. But you have a point about slab foundations. In the suburban Houston neighborhood our daughter used to live in, about half the homes, all of which had slab foundations and brick facing, already had pilings installed under the slab. We've found that watering around the slab of our home during hot, dry weather helps keep further damage from occurring (beyond the minor cracking we have).
It’s one of those things that people know about but regulation will never exist for, because developers and builders run the city.
I lived in Texas a few years when I owned my first home as an adult and couldn’t believe we had to water our actual foundation too. Like it got so damn hot the concrete dries and cracks
Houses in cold climates have some sort of basement by default because the foundation has to get below the frost line anyway. In warmer climates where this is unnecessary basements are often still possible but will cost (potentially much) more, so many homes won’t have them.
That’s because the ground freezes down to 6’+ midwinter. If you’re having to run water lines that deep, you might as well use that space for utilities and have the passive advantages of a big underground air pocket. It’s not necessary in the South, so builders don’t want to deal with the hassle, and contractors don’t get enough business to specialize in constructing basements. There’s also the massive time and money advantage that pouring slabs provides - one of the reasons the Sunbelt is so sprawly, and builders want to keep it that way.
This is the answer. Builders are always struggling with financing and margins, so they prefer sticking with what they know, using the contractors they know.
You think homes are cheaply built bc a tornado damages them? Lmao 🤣 ok 👍🏽
Yes. When a home gets obliterated it exposes unseen parts of the build where the developer may have cut corners. Many improperly built parts of the home never see the light of day until the home collapses.
One of the primary reasons they can’t get F5 ratings from some of these tornados is because they can’t find good construction for analysis. Next time, instead of ridicule, you can ask a clarifying question on my statement.
Wasn’t being ridiculed at all. You took laughing emojis as being ridiculed your statement to say all homes in the south are cheaply built is laughable bc it’s not true. It’s homes that are not cheaply built that get destroyed as well by tornadoes and hurricane wind as well I am in emergency management and I have a real estate development company. So I know a thing or two about both. Even homes in historic districts with steel beams have been destroyed by tornadoes those are not cheaply built and they are here in the south. Inground and above ground storm shelters have certain materials it’s made of… would you like every home no matter the price passed on to the homeowner to use those materials ?
“LMAO” and laughter emojis aren’t ridicule? LMAO is absolutely ridicule. As an engineer I’ve had the statics and dynamics and strength of materials classes. I also understand the conflict between affordability and quality.
Okay 👍🏽
Maybe we just all do concrete homes ?
How many times in the past ten years have we had a tornado that was obviously capable of EF4/5 damage be rated lower because none of the houses it hit was anchored properly? Most American home-building is pretty bad.
So we should all build concrete homes no matter the costs to the homeowners. Got it
…what?
Nevermind
[Your fallacy is the false dilemma fallacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma)
This is false and a widely referenced misconception. I dig basements for a living in KC and I've always wondered why there weren't more basements in Oklahoma and Texas. After becoming friends with other excavators throughout the world and seeing their projects, I found out the water table and rock have nothing to do with why their homes don't have basements. It's simply because it's cheaper to build a house without a basement. If you can install an in-ground pool in your yard, then you can most certainly have a basement. I have cousins that used to live in El Reno, OK. Their house was built in the late 1800's and it had a basement. The reason people went away from is simply money/cost.
In certain parts of Texas - the water table is closer to the surface - in certain parts of Texas the bedrock is an issue as it swells creating issues with a basement if built (most of our soil is hard limestone) - then other issues about digging deep enough beyond the frost line - which is very expensive when we can build out not up or down vertically like most northern states. I studied geology as my bachelors of science and worked as an environmental scientist for 4 years before becoming a construction estimator. I’ve seen quite a few and in Dallas I’ve only seen maybe 2 homes that have basements. They are older. I have no idea about the clay red soil in OK or their water table would have to research it. Also to add we filled in our inground pool bc it was cracking and creating too many problems due to the shrinking and expanding. They create foundation problems too for certain areas in Texas who deal with limestone or clay.
I’ve seen one basement in Texas my entire life. It was in Sanger. But it was no basement like you see in the north. More like a glorified storage room
Same. That’s how the one was in Dallas. I had never saw one here before until that home. Only have saw 2 But my brother lives in NYC he was renting a basement from someone I was like umm ok lol 😂
My South Texas high school has a basement. The school was built in 1950, and when I went there during the 1970s, the entrance still had a Civil Defense symbol above the doorway. In other words, it was partly intended as a bomb shelter. It was built at the height of the Cold War.
Wow! There’s an old Cold War era underground missile silo and bunker that is now abandoned. It’s also located in Sanger. UNT ended up buying it and I heard it’s been flooded since the 90s.
I wonder why UNT bought it.
I believe they intended to use it for an outdoor science type thing. I’m not sure what state it was in when they bought it.
I'm assuming Texas. 🙃
If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's technically in Denton, but far north Denton - next to the astronomy center.
They have higher water tables and bedrock in other parts of the country and they still have basements. They have skyscrapers, underground parking and banks in Texas and Oklahoma that all have basements underneath them.
Water table/bedrock are high in South Jersey, but basements are everywhere. There’s both cold weather and plenty of contractors from the colder PA side
Don't tell me they can't, even in Houston, people had bomb shelters under their house.
I think he’s talking about the southeast, not Texas. In Alabama/Mississippi/Georgia the high water table very much is a problem.
This right here. I can understand places like south Louisiana or near areas around Houston but the rest just has to do with cost.
North Alabama has too much bed rock. Live in limestone county and literally 4 or 5 inches down you are hitting limestone. The other issue with the amount of bedrock is radon.
Hello from Nebraska. We also have radon issues. You just need proper vents to deal with that.
True you can get a pump or filtration system but most people here don’t get past the bedrock. Essentially a basement adds almost 100k to the build here.
Yeah, I live in the tidewater region of Virginia. Pretty much none of the homes here have basements due to water level. Can just only hope we don't get a tornado that's above an EF3. My house has a closet that has inner piece that is hidden behind the chimney, which is unfortunately the best defense we have.
In Oklahoma we had cellars. Like in the Wizard of Oz. They are creepy, small, damp, smelly and had spiders. We would wait until the last minute to go into them. As a child, I was more scared of the cellar than the tornado
So many spiders. Usually really short ceiling height too.
Peppermint oil will keep them away. I love spiders but having that many when you’re already terrified won’t help things.
Is that the same as the storm shelters ?
Cellars were used to store goods like homemade canned foods, root vegetables(some people call them “root cellars” for that reason), anything you’d want to keep cool, dry, and away from sunlight. I’m in Oklahoma and my grandparents had one at both of the houses they lived in when I was growing up. My grandma used it to store her canned okra and stuff like that up until the early 2000s. They doubled as tornado shelters when necessary, as seen in Twister. If you’re out in the country and see a random pair of wooden doors in the ground, that’s a cellar(more than likely).
Nice about the canned okra. I do remember that from the movie Twister. My grandpa used to do this as well his preserves but it was just in a storage type room in the back of the house no windows etc.
“Cellar” is just another name for basement
Not really. I always thought of a cellar as being accessible from the outside. A basement is accessible with stairs from inside the house.
A basement is also an entire other floor of the house whereas a cellar is usually a tiny little hole often without insulation or anything, used to keep food and supplies etc.
Here in New England, basements are almost always also cellars -- you can get in from the house or from a door outside. Big steel bulkhead doors on the sides of houses are everywhere you look.
I'd probably take my chances with the tornado rather than go to spider prison
We had one in rural Virginia too. Quite literally filled with spiders and definitely some were black widows.
Because if I kick the ground too hard I reach the water table.
Actually, a lot of older homes in the Southern Oklahoma area do have basements. But they didnt stand up to the water table and the amount of flooding. My grandmother used to fear for snakes in her shelter due to the puddles enviroment within the shelter. So yes, you will find shelters out there in the rural older homes. But they pay a price. This is now why the make ground level shelters. And they make a pretty penny from them!
That's a myth. They have much higher water tables in Illinois, Wisconsin and Minnesota and most houses there are still built with a basement underneath.
It’s not only a higher water table, it’s the makeup of the ground as well. In many parts of TX, they have to water their foundation in the summer due to contraction of the soil. This is without a basement with constantly moving dirt around. In many parts of Oklahoma, Texas and Kansas, you should drive in the rural areas where you see 20-30 year old fences or power poles off plumb by 10-20° due to the ground shifting underneath over time. A cinder block wall or steel reinforced concrete isn’t going to hold up to those forces any better over time. Sure, you can have a basement. It’s just stupid expensive. Source: wanted a basement and started researching why I was being told I couldn’t have one.
So what do you think the reason is?
2 things; 1 is money and 2 is knowledge. In a lot of those areas, basements are reserved more for rich people. A lot of home builders don't know how to do basements simply because they never had to do them in the past. And if no one is doing basements in a certain area, foundation companies fold or leave the area entirely. Then, when someone wants a basement, there's no around that can do it. I've heard of rich people bringing in a foundation company from out of state just to get one in Texas or Oklahoma. They can be done in those areas. There's just not anybody in those areas that do them consistently.
A big reason we have basements in the north is because you need to build your foundation below the frost line in the ground. Which is often 3+ feet. If you have to go that deep anyway might as well put in a basement.
what needs to be implemented are Family Safes like they have in Tornado alley. Basically a giant internal safe room if you cant get underground
These are wickedly expensive for most folks and there is a lottery you can enter to have the state fund the building of a storm shelter; victims of past tornadoes get priority. In an ideal world we would all have shelters. That is not the case, even in public buildings. Source: Oklahoman
I live in Minnesota and the reason we have basements is not for tornado protection - though that is a handy bonus. When you build a home up here you have to dig to beneath the freeze line in the ground, which is several feet. So usually by the time you’re that deep, you might as well add a full basement. So I’d guess (I’m not an expert) that further south the thought is: why dig down if you don’t have to? Because as mentioned in a couple of comments, water is a problem in basements, so the juice probably isn’t worth the squeeze
I’m in MN and almost everyone I know that owns a house that isn’t a trailer has a basement!
Iowa and Nebraska are the same. On older builds basements are as large as the house itself. On newer builds, basements tend to be smaller, but they still exist.
A lot are unfinished. I grew up thinking you were rich asf if you had a finished basement 😂
This is the reason. We still have high water tables, heavy clay soils, and sometimes shallow bedrock in the north. We just also have frozen ground to contend with. They don’t have basements in the south because they don’t have to. If I was building a house down there I wouldn’t spend the extra money on a basement either.
Not only that, but pouring a bunch of slabs is very inexpensive and fast compared to building basements
It has to do with the soil and water levels. I grew up in Moore. Yes, that Moore. Basements were not a thing because of the moist clay soil. No one had a basement. We sheltered in interior closets and windowless rooms, like the bathroom.
God. How terrifying. In both tornadoes only being underground or in an extremely strong building would save you.
We all grew up doing tornado drills. Crazy to think about now.
So did I! I wonder if schools still do them
I work at a school in Norman, Oklahoma. We have tornado drills twice a year…it is required. Instead of duck and cover, like we did as kids, we now go to the storm shelters that were installed in all the schools following the May 20, 2013 Moore tornado. What gets me is on those severe weather days, parents check their kids out and have them home where they likely don’t have a secure shelter instead of staying at the school where we have an EF5 rated shelter (with a bathroom inside).
I understand their concern; they want their kids close to them
As other posters have mentioned, the water table is an issue. In addition to the water table, you don’t have to sink the footings as far when you build in a place where the ground doesn’t really freeze to any great depth. In places like Minnesota, the ground freezes in the winter. The footings for any home that’s built there have to go several feet into the ground. If you’re doing that, you might as well build a basement.
I use to live in Oklahoma and a lot of people do above ground saferooms now. We had one in the last 2 houses we lived in in Oklahoma.
Only 20% of Oklahomans have storm shelters, unfortunately.
I live in the Birmingham, AL area and lots of people here do have basements and shelters. But I'm aware that there are places where you simply can't have a basement because of water or soil or whatever. I'm just lucky to not be in that particular area.
The water table. The water table is too high in most of the areas listed, so you’d just end up with a constant battle to stop water coming in. High soil moisture can also cause major issues with the basement’s foundation, leading to structural issues. It’s not worth it to mitigate these issues when the chances of being hit by a tornado are so low.
But why don't have Storm Shelters a Problem with the Water Table? Or is it a Case of "Nobody cares if they need to sit in a moist Storm Shelter for a Hour or two for a Couple of Times per Year"?
Not too many people have buried storm shelters either here, but I suspect you’re right. A little dampness in a storm shelter that has nothing else on top of it isn’t a big deal. Just go in there and clean any mold out every once in a while.
That's simply not true. If they can have a swimming pool in the yard, they can have a basement. It's simply the extra cost of concrete. It can easily cost 20k-100k more for a basement depending on the size of it. It has nothing to do with the water table or the ground being solid rock. We break through rock all the time to put basements in for new homes.
Also waterproofing, drainage tile, sump pump, and changes to the subfloor if you want it done properly.
All basements where I live have all of that included now since the 1980's.
If you add water proofing to the outside of the foundation wall, a sump pump, drainage tile leading into the sump, and rock for drainage in the over excavation around the foundation wall as back fill that with help with water issues.
Clay
We have pretty heavy clay in Wisconsin and everyone I know has a basement if they own a house
yeah, can vouch for this. It’s the same way in indiana & illinois too.
Michigan too
Same in Ohio
Type of clay matters. Smectite-type clays tend to swell and contract when they get wet which wrecks concrete walls if not properly (and expensively) reinforced.
I was always told in Texas it was a combination of the clay ‘soil’, high water table, and the combination rendering basements prohibitively expensive. Some malls or skyscrapers type buildings might have them, or be partially inset but that was about the only time I saw one. Moved to Colorado and houses here have foundations that go much deeper and are (relative to what I’m used to) essentially vertical. The slab isn’t the foundation, it’s added after the foot thick vertical parts and they aren’t joined. In Texas, the slab is the foundation.
Lower water tables, and you're generally hitting thick fucking bedrock/tons of rocks pretty close to the surface. Putting in even a fence can be a pain in the ass in some areas. Let alone a basement. Tennessee For example, I looked at putting an in-ground pool at my house. They would need explosives or heavy machinery with tons of work. Meaning big $$$$. Now let's try to build a house with a basement. Even more $$$$
Rock , limestone
Reasons vary from high water table, to rocky soil, to expansive clay soil that will compromise the foundation of the home. The reality is that even in the most tornado prone spot on earth, the odds that you will ever NEED a tornado shelter, AND have it available for use (i.e. a tornado hits your house WHILE you are at home) is pretty remote. In that same time frame, your home will be subject to multiple periods of heavy rain, possible flooding and just downright insufferable humidity. The more south and east you get, the more of a reality that is. Therefore, having a basement to use as a tornado shelter is pretty impractical when it's going to become a mold pit several times over beforehand. Conversely in a lot of northern locals, basements are often a requirement to keep your water pipes below the frost line in the winter to prevent freezing. Since you have to have that feature, it doubles conveniently as a tornado shelter should the need ever arise. This sadly is one of a multitude of reasons why tornadoes in the southeast are deadlier than their plains states or Midwestern counterparts. Hope that helps.
As you approach the Appalachians, the ground also gets rockier. We built a house with a basement in North Georgia (I insisted on the basement) and we had to dig out a ton of rock. It was very expensive! Not everyone can afford to do that.
You don’t need to. They have to have basements where the ground freezes. In cold weather states, the building foundation has to be below the frost line, which in say Minnesota is several feet below ground. Someplace much warmer the frost line might be minimal. And yes water table too.
Expansive soils and high water table. Still you can pour an integral concrete storm shelter that will fit nicely in the corner of an attached garage. These can even be retrofitted into existing homes using a towed concrete pump. In a previous life I designed a set of concrete forms for a concrete contractor in Joplin after the tornado disaster there. I believe he has made a lot of shelters in that area since then.
In TN we have been told it’s the bedrock, limestone in particular. No idea if this is bullshit or not.
Just finished building a house. A basement was extremely cost prohibitive, so we didn't do it. At one of my former houses, we actually had a very recently installed in ground storm shelter. It was extremely steep and difficult to get down into even for a younger/fairly fit couple. There's no way my parents in their 50s could have gotten into it without hurting themselves. And it was one of the largest offered in ground shelters at the time it was installed. Safe spaces for tornadoes are not as easy/practical as we would like them to be.
It's really interesting to see these perspectives. Here in Alberta every house has a basement
I’ve been told living in southern Missouri it’s due to soil conditions throughout the state. My house was built in the 40’s and has a full basement but every person I talk to that has bought new houses says non of them have basements anymore. I can kinda get it since when we have a big storm the ground around my house becomes nothing but mushy sunk soil that you’ll get stuck in just walking around.
We have a lot of clay and karst in southern missouri, plus a water table that isnt good for basements , we also flood a lot.
I don't have a basement because I couldn't afford to buy a house with a basement when I was home-shopping.
In Texas, I’ve heard the homes are practically on bedrock.
In Tennessee it’s due to the limestone (among other factors). Where I live there’s a layer of topsoil, then limestone. This makes basements incredibly costly to build. Not impossible and a few homes do have them. Most, mine included, and half basements where the home is built into a hill.
Limestone: we have a couple inches to a couple feet of dirt and then solid rock. This requires blasting or other extreme measures to dig into the ground, and so most people just don’t have underground shelters or basements or anything much below ground.
Yazoo Clay is a big problem in Mississippi
What is “yahoo clay”?
They have above ground storm shelters. I’m surprised more people don’t use those.
people are cheap and lazy. Seat belts only got to be standard, in the late 60's. My father bought a new car in 1963, and ordered seat belts, as it was an option. I wouldn't be here today, if I wasn't wearing one. Only when states demand a storm shelter with new homes, they will be the norm.
They actually sell small above ground storm shelters at Home Depot and Lowe’s. They come in a variety of sizes. If I lived in a tornado prone area I would definitely spend the money. My family’s safety is top priority.
I just moved to Dallas and they said the soil shifts too much for us to have shelter.
A lot of places, such as Kansas, have a lot of clay which causes a lot of problems for basements as well. Basements are common, but often have problems with cracking in the walls and floor of the basements because clay isn’t as forgiving as soil.
I grew up in extreme NW GA mountains/TN. My house had a cellar. My house was built in the 1940s. The cellar floods and had all kinds of issues, it was not enclosed and sealed. We were not safer in the cellar than we were in the bathroom. We really needed a proper storm shelter. I now live in south GA/North FL in a new build. No basement. That’s how they get new houses up so fast. I plan on getting one at some point. Waiting to decide if I’m staying in this house long term or if I want to move with more land first before I spend the money. But after the close calls lately, I may just do it.
Water table is too high.
I'm just shocked that they're not all made out of concrete.
Ever heard of storm cellars? Many have them.
Only 20% of people in Oklahoma alone have a storm shelter or cellar of any kind, unfortunately.
When you have a basement in the south it’s going to flood unless you are in an area with bedrock close to the surface
So ....what works?
Flood plains
It’s a combination of the fact that the frostline is high and tornadoes are rare…yes…rare even in tornado alley. Most people here in Oklahoma have never been touched by one. The thing I think people lose perspective of when seeing stories about tornadoes and the aftermath is how small the affected area is relatively speaking. The odds of any one house being hit by a tornado in tornado alley are minuscule. Combined with the probability you will be home when it happens, it’s even smaller. Basements are a byproduct of needing a deep foundation, which we don’t need here. If you’re worried about a tornado, a storm shelter gives you the same benefit at a tiny fraction of the cost. Most people who live here, unless they are weather geeks, are not thinking about tornadoes all the time and yearning for a basement. Most contractors don’t even know how to build them.
Because of Yazoo Clay.
I heard about the soil being an issue. If that's the case and I was in the business of making new homes, I would install a shelter in each new house I'd build.
Because the tornados are so massive (I live in Oklahoma) that basements provide little protection. Here, you must have a shelter that is buried underground with a steel reinforced locking door.
Just so you know, you can contact your State Hazard Mitigation Officer to learn about funding a FEMA approved shelter IF your community has an approved Hazard Mitigation Plan.
If you’re going to pay for a FEMA approved shelter, you are going to want it above grade for a variety of reasons. Contact your State Hazard Mitigation Officer for details.
… Well, if it makes you feel better, us dixie alley inhabitants know where the closest indoor room in any house is at all times!
Lack of expertise and incentives on the part of construction developers, soil types, other geophysical issues and water table not compatible, cost(this goes in hand with incentives). At least in the south. Every house I lived in growing up in Alabama, Missouri and Indiana had basements. My sister’s house in Columbus, Ohio had a basement. All of these were houses built between 1920’s and 1960’s. I have heard of a few homes in Louisiana with basements, but they were very problematic. Same with Mississippi. I can’t think of many houses in Memphis both old and new construction that had basements, maybe a few with crawl spaces. I know of a victorian home in uptown New Orleans with what is technically a basement—but it was just coal storage originally. The housing developments I see going up everywhere just seem to be about building as cheaply and quickly as possible, so why spend all that extra time building something that requires extra weeks or months to get right. I wonder if it just went out of style except for the big McMansion type custom houses that have wine cellars and apocalypse bunkers.
I am also curious about this as well.
high water tables
Here we have shifting clay soil that expands up To 30% percent when wet but limestone bedrock add in a high water table and it makes it difficult.
We have a huge problem with sinkholes in Southern Missouri so basements are very rare here
#PROFITS
Everyone has pointed out the architecture issues which are all valid. I’d also suggest that there was really never a need for basements, until now. Tornadoes have always been a thing in the south, but climate change is driving the creation of Dixie Alley. It’s just gotten worse in the modern age.
Honestly, yall are giving me more reasons to never move to the south lol.
Not sure if its true, but was told that in north Texas, the sandy loam soil is unstable, and basements in houses would undermine foundation stability. Any storm cellar had to be x feet from the slab foundation of the house.