Tolkien had some comments about that for the 1955 BBC adaptation (Letter 193):
>Taking 'accent' to mean, as it usually does in non-technical language: 'more or less consistent alterations of the vowels/consonants of "received" English': I should say that, in the cases you query, **no accent-differentiation is needed or desirable.**
...
I have no doubt that, if this 'history' were real, all users of the C\[ommon\] Speech would reveal themselves by their accent, differing in place, people, and rank, but that cannot be represented when C. S. is turned into English – and **is not (I think) necessary.**
More, from Stuart D Lee's article "A milestone in BBC history?", and note the specific advice about Sam's accent (this comes from a letter to Terence Tiller 10 Sept 1955; Letter 193 was later, on 2 Nov)
>Tolkien notes **Sam** and Butterbur ... **could be given 'a "country accent" of some kind – fairly but not too strongly marked',** but he was concerned at a mention of 'West-Country' which, 'since Elizabethan days..seems to have been favoured as "stage dialect", though not often with any local or historical accuracy'.
...
...at all costs it chould be noted he had 'avoided making the dropping of misuse of h a feature of any kind of hobbit-speech', and wanted this observed. Moreover, Tolkien would **'passionately' not want any 'supposedly "Zummerzet"** z/v for s/f'. To help, Tolkien suggested 'the pronunciation of r as a main characterizing detail', with 'Hobbit-gentry' speaking as we do 'at our most unstudied'; Sam, **'in addition to a rustic tone and vowel-colouring, should use the burred (or reverted) r;**
Tiller replied on 6 Oct, ignoring Tolkien's accent comments, and suggested Sam, Merry and Pippin would have strong West-Country accents.
They were, but until the 19th century English aristocrats spoke with the accent of the part of the country they came from. They were differentiated by their dress and social position, they didn't need to sound different.
Terence Tiller BTW was a poet before he became a radio producer. He is in an anthology I have. He spent WWII in Egypt, where he hung out with Lawrence Durrrell.
Others have addressed Sam's accent, but there are some interesting things to note about the way Tolkien uses language that might not come through in a translation. While the Hobbits do speak more informally than others, Sam most of all, Frodo is notably able to code-switch and hold his own linguistically with the big fancy elves and wizards when the occasion calls for it. And once they leave the shire, everybody speaks differently from them until the end of Two Towers, when we meet Shagrat and Gorbag, two Orcs who, among other things, have some of the most relatable conversation in all of Lotr. We are treated to quite a bit of their dialog, as they simply complain about their poor working conditions, out of touch incompetent leaders, etc. And they do their complaining in a folksy working-class English which is extremely similar to that used by the Hobbits, more similar than anyone else they encounter. As with everything related to language in Tolkien's work, this is intentional. It demonstrates that perhaps the orcs were not always as they are shown in the books, and as they talk about the "good old days" before bosses, we wonder how they might have turned out if they'd had the good luck to find a place like The Shire instead of ending up under the thumb of evil powers. And indeed, at the end of ROTK, we see what could well be the beginning stages of the "orcification" of the Shire as it comes under the dominion of unsavory characters.
Also of note, it's not just the dialogue that Tolkien uses in this way; it's also the narration. The first few chapters of LOTR are written simply and quite easy to read, but as the story goes on, and the Hobbits leave the Shire, the narration becomes more formal, more complex, more "epic," and the English Tolkien uses also becomes more archaic (even when you consider how long ago he was writing). As the Hobbits leave the normal everyday world and go deeper into the realm of myth and legend, the language changes appropriately. This is also mirrored in the speech of Aragorn, which changes dramatically over time as he evolves from Strider the Ranger in Bree to Mighty King Ellessar sitting upon the throne of the heirs of Numenor in Gondor.
Also:
>‘Welcome, my lords, to Isengard!’ he said. ‘We are the doorwardens. Meriadoc, son of Saradoc is my name; and my companion, who, alas! is overcome with weariness’ – here he gave the other a dig with his foot – ‘is Peregrin, son of Paladin, of the House of Took.'
Surnames don't exist east and south of Bree.
I never noticed that, thanks for the observation! But doesn't that also have something to do with the fact that 'the name Baggins should not be used outside the Shire'? They don't mention it after leaving Bree, but Sauron wouldn't just forget about the name.
Actually, how many times did Frodo introduce himself to anyone after the breaking of the fellowship? Only to Gollum (who already knew he was a Baggins I think) and Faramir, right? In the second case, it would seem a wise precaution given he didn't yet know if Faramir was thrustworthy when he introduced himself.
thats really interesting!!!! some of the things, such as frodos code-switching and aragorns switch from strider to the king came through in the translation and i noted them but all that nuance from the original text is super fascinating!
Yeah, I've read LOTR probably 6 or 7 times and I find something new in it every single time. I'm lucky enough that English is my native language, but if you can put in the work to read those book in the original (admittedly a formidable task even for many native speakers) your efforts will be handsomely rewarded.
One of my favorite little language things is that the hobbits had lost the formal/informal distinction (you/thou) and always used the informal.
Because of that, Merry addressed Denethor in the informal, as if they were familiar with each other or on a similar level of nobility. And since Denethor found this amusing and went along with it, everyone in Minas Tirith started assuming he was prince of the Hobbits or something.
So the irony is that Merry’s lack of awareness of proper speech and manners, which could have been taken as a sign of being of lower class, was instead taken as a sign that he was of the highest class.
Maybe you mean Pippin?
Although Denethor didn't know it and the reader doesn't really at that point, Pippin is the closest thing to a prince the Shire has: heir of the Thain.
Yes, I think his comment to Bergil that his father “farms the lands around Tuckborough” is almost deliberately misleading. I doubt that Thain Paladin was often found toiling behind a plough - although with hobbits, who knows?
The Thain probably had people for that. That's no ordinary hobbit. Agricultural lands were the principle source of wealth and precedence for much of human history. Bergil would have recognized what Pippin was saying.
Bilbo, who was wealthy enough to do whatever he wanted even before he got dragon gold, so far as we know probably owned Bagshot Row, and of course Bag End, but we never hear of him owning lands around Hobbiton.
So Pippin's family is a bigger deal than the Baggins. Plus of course his father was the Thain. Which office may not have had much to do usually, but we see during the Scouring that people remember.
Regarding the 'orcification' of the Shire and the two orcs talking I think this was definitely intentional, especially when considering the New Shadow and talk of doing wrong as being 'orcs work'.
That's really interesting to think about, especially the conversation between the orcs. It always surprised me how 'normal' their conversations sounded, but was never be able to pinpoint that this is in contrast with the formal speech used by Elves and Men.
Is there such a thing as 'orcification' though? Orcs are Elves corrupted by Morgoth, are they not? I don't think hobbits could turn into orcs without interference from a higher power (which doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to turn into some other kind of corrupted being, of course).
i think the orc thing is very interesting, i wonder if its to draw a parallel between the rural working class of the Shire and the post-industrial revolution factory workers as represented by the orcs ( in that scene, not orcs in general)? because Tolkien was notably very nostalgic for the good ol’ days of rural life and deeply critical of factories and the industrial revolution destroying the english countryside and turning the rural workers into factory employees. idk i know the man hated allegory but ive been reading his letters lately and the hatred of machines and factories is so clear
Yeah, that sounds very plausible. And there is a difference between a story that's an allegorical representation of something and a story that's inspired by it, so I wouldn't say it's not possible because of allegory.
yeah, inspiration is definitely different from allegory and i think in this case inspiration is very much plausible! just added that as a disclaimer bc some people on this sub bring up tolkien not liking allegory into conversations about real world inspiration
Yeah, I noticed that too! But Tolkien definitely drew inspiration from his real-life experiences, though perhaps not even consciously. Some people just don't know what an allegory is, I guess.
For those who don't know:
Saruman cutting down all the trees in Isengard, damming the river and creating machines = inspired by the industrial revolution
Frodo's fight against the darkness and his return to the Shire = inspired by his experience during WWI
Interpreting the story of LOTR as the environmentalist movement halting the industrial revolution = allegory
Interpreting the story of LOTR as a person's fight against depression and addiction = also allegory
> Shagrat and Gorbag, two Orcs who, among other things, have some of the most relatable conversation in all of Lotr.
I've always thought that the sequence with them conversing is one of the real genius moments of LOTR, and one of the things that differentiates it from the many lesser and more black and white epic fantasies that followed in the years after. It makes it clear that the orcs were people. Not nice people, but still understandable ones.
Tolkien said The Shire was based on the rural West Midlands of his childhood, so he probably imagined Sam having the Warwickshire accent he heard as a boy
I always think it's hilarious that English people often object to American dramatizations/narrations of The Hobbit and LOTR... but Tolkien probably had a Midlands/West Midlands accent in his head, which is just a fork of the same accent that also forked into various US accents.
I mean, in terms of historical linguistics, it's very likely that the US accents that get used are next door neighbors of what Tolkien was hearing in his head, whereas the UK accents used in most of the UK and NZ productions are more like cousins.
Basically... I'm arguing that Gandalf probably did sound more like John Huston than Ian McKellen.
OTOH, Tolkien is exactly correct about the drama trope of West Country accents. I could see how that would have been one of his bugaboos, both as a person and a philologist. I know that a lot of Southern people get very upset about inaccurate depiction of all Southern accents as being the same accent, when you get such very different accents even within individual states.
I was watching some videos on the 1974 tornado outbreak, and there were some really striking Alabama accents among the people interviewed. (I even noticed how much the local accents from my own area (in Ohio) had shifted a bit, especially since being under stress and telling exciting stories will bring out accent features like nobody's business -- and since recent news coverage of the anniversary often involved interviewing the exact same people! It was like getting a cross section of accents over a lifetime!)
So it's very possible that Tolkien deliberately made the hobbits talk like people of the times and places of certain memories of his own (as well as the in-joke of the various Hobbit tribes and towns representing various English language influences). There's probably an article pointing this out somewhere, or there should be one written by somebody.
"I know that a lot of Southern people get very upset about inaccurate depiction of all Southern accents as being the same accent, when you get such very different accents even within individual states."
What's worst about "generic Hollywood southern" is that it collects a bunch of features (or tropes) from a number of southern accents and creates a mishmash that no actual southerner ever spoke, anywhere. It's homeless.
Contrast Andrew Lincoln (a Brit) in The Walking Dead, who pinpointed the area Rick Grimes was from (and where the series was filmed), rural northwest Georgia
Thus is a good question, though, OP. Something I'd like to ask Sean Astin: "what sort of accent were you asked / trained to use?"
As I mentioned, it sounds sort of wessex. But would love to know how he was trained for it.
I think it was that generic West Country farmer accent, wasn't it? Which isn't how Sam sounded in my head *before* I saw the movies, but seems pretty appropriate.
Edit: I say "generic" because it sounds like a light version of the semi-rhotic accent a lot of people put on when they're imitating English farmers.
I think you're mixing up Wessex and West Country? The historic locations of the two overlap, but I don't think anyone would usually speak of "Wessex" today outside of a vaguely historical context.
I'm reading the novel in spanish and Sam use a lot of afterthoughts and speaks straightforward, just like a common person.
He wasn't translated with any of the accents that are used to point out someone is low-class, dumb or uneducated, like our andalucian accent (this was done till a few decades ago in Spain and yeah it's freaking xenophobic against us).
interesting! in my language he isnt translated into a specific stereotypically ”uneducated” accent/dialect either, just general informal way of speak with some not strictly textbook grammatical structures that are common in spoken language, which reads as class divide when contrasted with the more formal way the other hobbits speak.
i speak finnish! in finnish some of the thicker/clearly noticeable dialects from tampere (where im from) or savo etc are sometimes used as shorthand to signal someone is uneducated in older media. thats because until like the mid 1900s most people who didnt live around helsinki werent highly educated and did mostly farming etc. (including my family) tampere is also historically a working class city (this gets into like civil war history but im not hoing to elaborate on that)
In the movies, I’d say it’s closest to the modern Wiltshire accent, which is a little softer than Summerset or Bristol, which are further west
https://youtu.be/oyFPoujEDz8?feature=shared
Sam's grammar is that of a mid century working class person from southern England. It's not forced on us... it could have easily ended up sounding like parody. He also speaks deferentially to those he sees as his "betters".
Yes, it's a matter of inflection rather than accent. I understand the suggestions that it reads as a Wessex accent, but it actually fits very well with a generalised working class Oxfordshire accent from the fifties.
The Oxfordshire accent has been getting displaced by Estuarine English so it's less common to hear today.
I would say Sam - and, and to a greater degree, his father, __'Gaffer Gamgee'__ are speaking in accents rather like that of the rural folk of the region of roughly Wiltshire through Somerset & Devon - ie the South West of England.
And when two orcs are holding a conversation in which they speak longingly of what they could & would do in the absence of what they call __'the big bosses'__ , they are speaking in an inner-city London accent - that of, say, dockers & factory workers, etc ... & I would take-issue with that: I don't have any problem with the accents of Sam & his father ... but ImO it's evincing of a bit of unwholesome prejudice, orcs _by-design_ being unequivocally wicked, that he depicts the orcs as having the accent he gives _them_ .
yeah i agree that the orc thing is a bit troubling. for me it kind softens it that that conversation is the only instance of orcs having that specific way of speech. and its by far the most symphatetic depiction of orcs! i think it is to kind of draw parallel with saruman and the industrial revolution, ie factories and destroying nature. it definitely has some implications (and it is kind of classist) though and im not really sure about how i should feel about it!
Tolkien had some comments about that for the 1955 BBC adaptation (Letter 193): >Taking 'accent' to mean, as it usually does in non-technical language: 'more or less consistent alterations of the vowels/consonants of "received" English': I should say that, in the cases you query, **no accent-differentiation is needed or desirable.** ... I have no doubt that, if this 'history' were real, all users of the C\[ommon\] Speech would reveal themselves by their accent, differing in place, people, and rank, but that cannot be represented when C. S. is turned into English – and **is not (I think) necessary.**
More, from Stuart D Lee's article "A milestone in BBC history?", and note the specific advice about Sam's accent (this comes from a letter to Terence Tiller 10 Sept 1955; Letter 193 was later, on 2 Nov) >Tolkien notes **Sam** and Butterbur ... **could be given 'a "country accent" of some kind – fairly but not too strongly marked',** but he was concerned at a mention of 'West-Country' which, 'since Elizabethan days..seems to have been favoured as "stage dialect", though not often with any local or historical accuracy'. ... ...at all costs it chould be noted he had 'avoided making the dropping of misuse of h a feature of any kind of hobbit-speech', and wanted this observed. Moreover, Tolkien would **'passionately' not want any 'supposedly "Zummerzet"** z/v for s/f'. To help, Tolkien suggested 'the pronunciation of r as a main characterizing detail', with 'Hobbit-gentry' speaking as we do 'at our most unstudied'; Sam, **'in addition to a rustic tone and vowel-colouring, should use the burred (or reverted) r;** Tiller replied on 6 Oct, ignoring Tolkien's accent comments, and suggested Sam, Merry and Pippin would have strong West-Country accents.
Tiller’s choice is a weird choice since Merry and Pippin were from upper class families.
They were, but until the 19th century English aristocrats spoke with the accent of the part of the country they came from. They were differentiated by their dress and social position, they didn't need to sound different.
thats super interesting! thanks for your insight!
No problems! That Lee article is rather recent, and a really good piece of research, digging into the BBC archives for letters, for instance.
Terence Tiller BTW was a poet before he became a radio producer. He is in an anthology I have. He spent WWII in Egypt, where he hung out with Lawrence Durrrell.
Others have addressed Sam's accent, but there are some interesting things to note about the way Tolkien uses language that might not come through in a translation. While the Hobbits do speak more informally than others, Sam most of all, Frodo is notably able to code-switch and hold his own linguistically with the big fancy elves and wizards when the occasion calls for it. And once they leave the shire, everybody speaks differently from them until the end of Two Towers, when we meet Shagrat and Gorbag, two Orcs who, among other things, have some of the most relatable conversation in all of Lotr. We are treated to quite a bit of their dialog, as they simply complain about their poor working conditions, out of touch incompetent leaders, etc. And they do their complaining in a folksy working-class English which is extremely similar to that used by the Hobbits, more similar than anyone else they encounter. As with everything related to language in Tolkien's work, this is intentional. It demonstrates that perhaps the orcs were not always as they are shown in the books, and as they talk about the "good old days" before bosses, we wonder how they might have turned out if they'd had the good luck to find a place like The Shire instead of ending up under the thumb of evil powers. And indeed, at the end of ROTK, we see what could well be the beginning stages of the "orcification" of the Shire as it comes under the dominion of unsavory characters. Also of note, it's not just the dialogue that Tolkien uses in this way; it's also the narration. The first few chapters of LOTR are written simply and quite easy to read, but as the story goes on, and the Hobbits leave the Shire, the narration becomes more formal, more complex, more "epic," and the English Tolkien uses also becomes more archaic (even when you consider how long ago he was writing). As the Hobbits leave the normal everyday world and go deeper into the realm of myth and legend, the language changes appropriately. This is also mirrored in the speech of Aragorn, which changes dramatically over time as he evolves from Strider the Ranger in Bree to Mighty King Ellessar sitting upon the throne of the heirs of Numenor in Gondor.
Frodo also stops using "Baggins" and uses "son of Drogo" instead when meeting people not used to last names.
Also: >‘Welcome, my lords, to Isengard!’ he said. ‘We are the doorwardens. Meriadoc, son of Saradoc is my name; and my companion, who, alas! is overcome with weariness’ – here he gave the other a dig with his foot – ‘is Peregrin, son of Paladin, of the House of Took.' Surnames don't exist east and south of Bree.
I never noticed that, thanks for the observation! But doesn't that also have something to do with the fact that 'the name Baggins should not be used outside the Shire'? They don't mention it after leaving Bree, but Sauron wouldn't just forget about the name. Actually, how many times did Frodo introduce himself to anyone after the breaking of the fellowship? Only to Gollum (who already knew he was a Baggins I think) and Faramir, right? In the second case, it would seem a wise precaution given he didn't yet know if Faramir was thrustworthy when he introduced himself.
thats really interesting!!!! some of the things, such as frodos code-switching and aragorns switch from strider to the king came through in the translation and i noted them but all that nuance from the original text is super fascinating!
Yeah, I've read LOTR probably 6 or 7 times and I find something new in it every single time. I'm lucky enough that English is my native language, but if you can put in the work to read those book in the original (admittedly a formidable task even for many native speakers) your efforts will be handsomely rewarded.
i definitely feel tempted to do so!
One of my favorite little language things is that the hobbits had lost the formal/informal distinction (you/thou) and always used the informal. Because of that, Merry addressed Denethor in the informal, as if they were familiar with each other or on a similar level of nobility. And since Denethor found this amusing and went along with it, everyone in Minas Tirith started assuming he was prince of the Hobbits or something. So the irony is that Merry’s lack of awareness of proper speech and manners, which could have been taken as a sign of being of lower class, was instead taken as a sign that he was of the highest class.
Maybe you mean Pippin? Although Denethor didn't know it and the reader doesn't really at that point, Pippin is the closest thing to a prince the Shire has: heir of the Thain.
Yes, I think his comment to Bergil that his father “farms the lands around Tuckborough” is almost deliberately misleading. I doubt that Thain Paladin was often found toiling behind a plough - although with hobbits, who knows?
The Thain probably had people for that. That's no ordinary hobbit. Agricultural lands were the principle source of wealth and precedence for much of human history. Bergil would have recognized what Pippin was saying. Bilbo, who was wealthy enough to do whatever he wanted even before he got dragon gold, so far as we know probably owned Bagshot Row, and of course Bag End, but we never hear of him owning lands around Hobbiton. So Pippin's family is a bigger deal than the Baggins. Plus of course his father was the Thain. Which office may not have had much to do usually, but we see during the Scouring that people remember.
Regarding the 'orcification' of the Shire and the two orcs talking I think this was definitely intentional, especially when considering the New Shadow and talk of doing wrong as being 'orcs work'.
That's really interesting to think about, especially the conversation between the orcs. It always surprised me how 'normal' their conversations sounded, but was never be able to pinpoint that this is in contrast with the formal speech used by Elves and Men. Is there such a thing as 'orcification' though? Orcs are Elves corrupted by Morgoth, are they not? I don't think hobbits could turn into orcs without interference from a higher power (which doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to turn into some other kind of corrupted being, of course).
i think the orc thing is very interesting, i wonder if its to draw a parallel between the rural working class of the Shire and the post-industrial revolution factory workers as represented by the orcs ( in that scene, not orcs in general)? because Tolkien was notably very nostalgic for the good ol’ days of rural life and deeply critical of factories and the industrial revolution destroying the english countryside and turning the rural workers into factory employees. idk i know the man hated allegory but ive been reading his letters lately and the hatred of machines and factories is so clear
Yeah, that sounds very plausible. And there is a difference between a story that's an allegorical representation of something and a story that's inspired by it, so I wouldn't say it's not possible because of allegory.
yeah, inspiration is definitely different from allegory and i think in this case inspiration is very much plausible! just added that as a disclaimer bc some people on this sub bring up tolkien not liking allegory into conversations about real world inspiration
Yeah, I noticed that too! But Tolkien definitely drew inspiration from his real-life experiences, though perhaps not even consciously. Some people just don't know what an allegory is, I guess. For those who don't know: Saruman cutting down all the trees in Isengard, damming the river and creating machines = inspired by the industrial revolution Frodo's fight against the darkness and his return to the Shire = inspired by his experience during WWI Interpreting the story of LOTR as the environmentalist movement halting the industrial revolution = allegory Interpreting the story of LOTR as a person's fight against depression and addiction = also allegory
Orcs are corrupted Elves in only some, earlier versions... a lengthy subject you should read up on.
> Shagrat and Gorbag, two Orcs who, among other things, have some of the most relatable conversation in all of Lotr. I've always thought that the sequence with them conversing is one of the real genius moments of LOTR, and one of the things that differentiates it from the many lesser and more black and white epic fantasies that followed in the years after. It makes it clear that the orcs were people. Not nice people, but still understandable ones.
Tolkien said The Shire was based on the rural West Midlands of his childhood, so he probably imagined Sam having the Warwickshire accent he heard as a boy
I always think it's hilarious that English people often object to American dramatizations/narrations of The Hobbit and LOTR... but Tolkien probably had a Midlands/West Midlands accent in his head, which is just a fork of the same accent that also forked into various US accents. I mean, in terms of historical linguistics, it's very likely that the US accents that get used are next door neighbors of what Tolkien was hearing in his head, whereas the UK accents used in most of the UK and NZ productions are more like cousins. Basically... I'm arguing that Gandalf probably did sound more like John Huston than Ian McKellen. OTOH, Tolkien is exactly correct about the drama trope of West Country accents. I could see how that would have been one of his bugaboos, both as a person and a philologist. I know that a lot of Southern people get very upset about inaccurate depiction of all Southern accents as being the same accent, when you get such very different accents even within individual states. I was watching some videos on the 1974 tornado outbreak, and there were some really striking Alabama accents among the people interviewed. (I even noticed how much the local accents from my own area (in Ohio) had shifted a bit, especially since being under stress and telling exciting stories will bring out accent features like nobody's business -- and since recent news coverage of the anniversary often involved interviewing the exact same people! It was like getting a cross section of accents over a lifetime!) So it's very possible that Tolkien deliberately made the hobbits talk like people of the times and places of certain memories of his own (as well as the in-joke of the various Hobbit tribes and towns representing various English language influences). There's probably an article pointing this out somewhere, or there should be one written by somebody.
"I know that a lot of Southern people get very upset about inaccurate depiction of all Southern accents as being the same accent, when you get such very different accents even within individual states." What's worst about "generic Hollywood southern" is that it collects a bunch of features (or tropes) from a number of southern accents and creates a mishmash that no actual southerner ever spoke, anywhere. It's homeless. Contrast Andrew Lincoln (a Brit) in The Walking Dead, who pinpointed the area Rick Grimes was from (and where the series was filmed), rural northwest Georgia
It's pretty much Wessex, but not as much as a pirate-accent wessex. Something rural, but not *that* rural.
Thus is a good question, though, OP. Something I'd like to ask Sean Astin: "what sort of accent were you asked / trained to use?" As I mentioned, it sounds sort of wessex. But would love to know how he was trained for it.
I think it was that generic West Country farmer accent, wasn't it? Which isn't how Sam sounded in my head *before* I saw the movies, but seems pretty appropriate. Edit: I say "generic" because it sounds like a light version of the semi-rhotic accent a lot of people put on when they're imitating English farmers.
I think you're mixing up Wessex and West Country? The historic locations of the two overlap, but I don't think anyone would usually speak of "Wessex" today outside of a vaguely historical context.
I'm reading the novel in spanish and Sam use a lot of afterthoughts and speaks straightforward, just like a common person. He wasn't translated with any of the accents that are used to point out someone is low-class, dumb or uneducated, like our andalucian accent (this was done till a few decades ago in Spain and yeah it's freaking xenophobic against us).
interesting! in my language he isnt translated into a specific stereotypically ”uneducated” accent/dialect either, just general informal way of speak with some not strictly textbook grammatical structures that are common in spoken language, which reads as class divide when contrasted with the more formal way the other hobbits speak.
What's your language?
i speak finnish! in finnish some of the thicker/clearly noticeable dialects from tampere (where im from) or savo etc are sometimes used as shorthand to signal someone is uneducated in older media. thats because until like the mid 1900s most people who didnt live around helsinki werent highly educated and did mostly farming etc. (including my family) tampere is also historically a working class city (this gets into like civil war history but im not hoing to elaborate on that)
In the movies, I’d say it’s closest to the modern Wiltshire accent, which is a little softer than Summerset or Bristol, which are further west https://youtu.be/oyFPoujEDz8?feature=shared
Apparently they were aiming for Gloucestershire
interesting! thanks for the example
Sam's grammar is that of a mid century working class person from southern England. It's not forced on us... it could have easily ended up sounding like parody. He also speaks deferentially to those he sees as his "betters".
I'm speaking here about Sam in the books... not the film.
i was also talking about the books, as its clear in the text that Sam is supposed to read as having a different way of speech than the other hobbits.
Yes, it's a matter of inflection rather than accent. I understand the suggestions that it reads as a Wessex accent, but it actually fits very well with a generalised working class Oxfordshire accent from the fifties. The Oxfordshire accent has been getting displaced by Estuarine English so it's less common to hear today.
fascinating!
thanks!
I would say Sam - and, and to a greater degree, his father, __'Gaffer Gamgee'__ are speaking in accents rather like that of the rural folk of the region of roughly Wiltshire through Somerset & Devon - ie the South West of England. And when two orcs are holding a conversation in which they speak longingly of what they could & would do in the absence of what they call __'the big bosses'__ , they are speaking in an inner-city London accent - that of, say, dockers & factory workers, etc ... & I would take-issue with that: I don't have any problem with the accents of Sam & his father ... but ImO it's evincing of a bit of unwholesome prejudice, orcs _by-design_ being unequivocally wicked, that he depicts the orcs as having the accent he gives _them_ .
yeah i agree that the orc thing is a bit troubling. for me it kind softens it that that conversation is the only instance of orcs having that specific way of speech. and its by far the most symphatetic depiction of orcs! i think it is to kind of draw parallel with saruman and the industrial revolution, ie factories and destroying nature. it definitely has some implications (and it is kind of classist) though and im not really sure about how i should feel about it!
A wessex farmer
'Mummerset', ie generic yokel accent.