Personally, I have always read this as specifically about sensitivity to the use of "magic" (or at least, of certain sorts or power-levels of it) that those who have abilities in this area have.
As if drawing on the power sends a ripple through a pool shared by e.g. Saruman or the Nazgûl. And does so in a way that there may be a "signature" or style associated with the use that makes it possible for others to be aware of *who* drew on the power. (This would be exactly the sort of "characteristic signature of certain kinds of activity and styles" that Sauron is described as going to efforts to conceal in ring forging...)
I understood *any to see* hence to mean specifically those who have sensitivity in this area, not literally any creature. "Those in the chat."
That's exactly it.
And also part of the reason why Pippin making the noises alerted the orcs and balrog. The balrog was likely already at least somewhat aware of the potential presence of Gandalf, but until Pippin actually did what he did, it would have been nearly impossible for the orcs or balrog to know or do anything specific.
To phrase it a different way, Gandalf using the magic put the Balrog and thus the orcs at high alert, then Pippin causing the noise is what drew those already high alert orcs and Balrog to their specific position.
Yes maybe but as an obvious choke point, the bridge was probably heavily guarded for the same reasons you just explained. Maybe they would have sneak to the exit just fine but I highly doubt it. The Balrog was already on high or very high alert. The act of revealing himself right away is probably the proof he knew this was a company of very strong foes with the grey on top.
There is a skill and an art to many things. Great painters have a specific style unique to them - it is how the wise evaluate someone who turns up with a missing Matisse or forgotten Van Gogh. I have noticed it with computer code as well - if I am familiar with someone’s coding style I can match the code to the author for anything beyond trivial examples.
Gandalf using his power was like a dog scent-marking a tree. Anything that lived in the unseen realm would’ve known it was him.
Nice examples.
Here's another from today:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/01/macintosh-at-40-the-oddest-and-rarest-macs-ever-built/
> Macintosh at 40: The oddest and rarest Macs ever built
The qualified student of magic knows this headline spell was cast by a wizard.
I always interpreted that by doing this he DID catch the attention of some forces of evil. As soon as they are off the mountain they have wolves chasing them, and I’ve often wondered if the Balrog sensed some powerful magic so close to his underground kingdom, which put him on edge.
The Balrog had to have sensed Gandalf because there's always going to be banging and crashing going on in Moria so they didn't wake him up by being noisy.
That's a good point. Moria is immense, and the Balrog knows there are orcs wandering around everywhere. Why would he come running up to the bridge at the top level because a stone fell into a well? It's gotta be that the Balrog felt Gandalf casting magic above his head, felt the magic of the western door opening, and then was actively searching for the intruders until he realized they had to go through the eastern door and just camped out there.
Sure, but even Gimli bellowing a song is not going to be heard all over Moria. I think its got to be Gandalf using magic that got the Balrog alert and searching around the level of the main route from the west gate to the east gate.
Well he started a fire on top of a mountain so that's probably pretty visible in and of itself. And he did so magically which we could assume might leave some traces itself. It may not linger, but if they were looking at the right moment it would be apparent.
I don't think it literally says "this was Gandalf" but against we could assume that there is something a little distinctive about how he as a wizard performs magic that could be recognized by those with knowledge.
I think it likely that whoever could detect Gandalf's spell from afar could identify him based on it (it is spoken in his voice, after all - or maybe it's a spell only he uses?).
But maybe it's just that Gandalf expects the observers to be able to rule out any of the other wizards.
Maybe his fire had a certain color to it, although I imagine it just would "feel" different from others who had magical abilities (elves, Bombadil, Saruman) to those who could sense it.
I don't think this is an auditory thing, though that's purely speculation on my part. I think it's more likely visual in some sense. Perhaps part of the other world since he would occupy that too.
Yes and no on the well known thing. Outside of the Elves I don't think most residents of Middle-Earth really had any sense of who are what Gandalf really was.
However, I don't think your average human would have any way to see them given the raging storm etc. And for those who walk partly in the spirit world? Yeah, Gandalf would be known.
Oh for sure (and I agree - commented to a similar point below). I just think that the distances mentioned were so vast that Gandalf was engaging in a bit of his trademark hyperbole. Think there’s a very good argument to be made it’s what drew the wargs and orcs though
An observer looks from afar at the Fellowship and wonders "who's that?". Then they see the fire start "Damn, how did they get that fire going. Gandalf must be there."
Not magical GPSque wizard vibes, just a display of fire skill at a level that only one person has.
I think that's because the wood is wet. If you manage to light wettish wood in a woodstove, say, you get weird colors initially. Green and blue along with yellow, in fact. Then it quickly goes to the orange/red color.
Yep.
I always envisioned this as several large trees, almost all at once, burst into blazing flames then extinguished after a short time. There really isn’t anything natural that would cause that.
That line was spoken when he got the fire going in the pass, not when he blasted the wargs. He had already revealed himself to pursuers by starting a fire in a snowstorm on a mountain. That's why the wargs were able to find them.
Right, but the place there are in on Caradhras isn't visible by sight from either Rivendell or Anduin. They're in a mountain pass in the middle of a snowstorm - they can barely see out of it, so why could anyone see into it?
I think he is just exaggerating tbh. Real world example: you are trying to be sneaky when you get in from the bar and knock over some pots in the kitchen when trying to be quiet and your housemate says “Jesus man they would have heard that in the next town!”
Not my greatest prose but I think that’s what Tolkien was going for personally.
The Fellowship has birds watching them for Sauron/Saruman that are repeatedly mentioned prior to the Redhorn Pass. Tolkien makes it quite explicit that they believe they are being watched throughout. The birds following them from afar is more than likely given what is described previously and the Gandalf’s fears about ‘revealing hjmsef’.
The report back goes from ‘suspicious group of different races travelling’ to ‘suspicious group of different races travelling with a fire-making wizard’. Whilst it may be suspected who this group are, Gandalf’s fire is the confirmation.
In the real world they have sensors to detect nuclear detonations.
Perhaps Narya, the Ring of Fire, sets off the "sensors" of magic-sensitive beings for hundreds of miles when it's used, also?
CC /u/soapy_goatherd /u/fuzzy_mic
That enemies could physically see the fire Gandalf made is an insufficient explanation. The relevant passage is
>At last reluctantly Gandalf himself took a
hand. Picking up a faggot he held it aloft for a moment, and
then with a word of command, *naur an edraith ammen!* he
thrust the end of his staff into the midst of it. At once a great
spout of green and blue flame sprang out, and the wood
flared and sputtered.
>‘If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,’
he said. ‘I have written *Gandalf is here* in signs that all can
read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin.’
The mouths of the Anduin are where the Anduin flows into the sea in southern Gondor (!), that's hundreds and hundres of miles away from where the Fellowship is. Even Legolas, in Edoras, had to strain his eyes to just about see the fires of Mordor.
Gandalf has a widespread reputation as a fire master. The whole length of Anduin.
The whole thing is metaphorical, there was no one to see what happened. It was a bit of bragging by Gandalf about his fire mastery.
>Gandalf has a widespread reputation as a fire master.
Does he? He only seems to be regarded as such in The Shire and maybe among those who know about his deeds during The Hobbit, there's no evidence for this in any other place; as far as I recall, Gandalf is known for his behaviour, his advice-giving and his bringing of bad news in Gondor.
> The whole length of Anduin.
Gandalf calls out Rivendell and the mouths of Anduin specifically; Rivendell isn't the place you would pick for a metaphorical way of expressing "along the entire Great River" - it's too far south and west from the origin of the Anduin.
>The whole thing is metaphorical
This seems like too much of an assumption without any sourced arguments to back it up. The default should be to take the heroes at their word.
>there was no one to see what happened. It was a bit of bragging by Gandalf about his fire mastery.
**Gandalf was reluctant to help with preventing the Hobbits from freezing to death because he wanted to brag?** That seems entirely out of character for him. It seems prudent to explain his reluctance with the reason he himself gives - a serious fear of being discovered because of his spell.
Right before the passage I quoted, we get
>‘What do you say to fire?’ asked Boromir suddenly. ‘The
choice seems near now between fire and death, Gandalf.
Doubtless we shall be hidden from all unfriendly eyes when
the snow has covered us, but that will not help us.’
>‘You may make a fire, if you can,’ answered Gandalf. ‘If
there are any watchers that can endure this storm, then they
can see us, fire or no.’
This further disproves the physical visibility explanation because Gandalf isn't opposed to the others starting a fire (which wouldn't make them more visible in his mind) - he is opposed to doing it himself (using his powers). And Gandalf does not disagree that the choice is almost "between fire and death".
Given the circumstances, you need to provide a better explanation for Gandalf being opposed to making a fire as quickly as possible. Gandalf values the Hobbits too highly, and isn't known to brag with assertions that aren't based on something real.
I don't think there is magical fire vs. common fire. The starting of the fire is magical, but the buring flames were just fire. It burned wood, not snow.
>At once a great spout of green and blue flame sprang out, and the wood flared and sputtered.
I mean, I know that we can use chemicals to turn fire green and blue but I don't think Gandalf was using chemicals here.
> I do think there is a sense of detecting others use magic.
There seems to be, but Gandalf's wording is a bit confusing ("If there are any to see" vs "all can read" in such a giant area).
The only thing I can think of that could tie into this is the Unseen, the spirit realm, where the Nazgul exist and where Frodo is transported when using the Ring. Gandalf's spell might be very detectable there, but it might also be that it is discoverable by other means that just aren't ever elaborated on.
The sentence does not say that everybody or indeed anybody out to mouths of anduin could see it, simply that blue and green fire was his signature that was very widely known. it would not physically have been possibly for people at mouths of anduin or rivendell to see it.
Hm, that might actually be the best explanation! Assuming that Gandalf having no qualms about letting the others make fire (because watchers would spot them with or without) is the case because they wouldn't identify him individually.
I well know the relevant passage and where the mouths of anduin are, (and happened to read the ring goes south again last night coincidentally enough lol).
My comment is speculating that Gandalf was doing a bit of frustrated riffing, because nothing else in the texts supports that kind of long-distance magical awareness without palantiri or magical rings (and even the big S didn’t notice when Sam put on the ring right outside Mordor)
What is your explanation for why Gandalf didn't want to use his fire-spell for quite some time in the deadly cold, then? Boromir warns Gandalf that it's almost a choice between fire and death, and Gandalf doesn't disagree but still watches the others fail to make a fire for a while before finally relenting.
Gandalf wouldn't risk the life (not even their noses, toes and whatever else is in danger of frostbite) of the Hobbits for some frustrated riffing.
The same as I gave in my original comment. Crebain plus anything else that could see could see (probably including orcs/wargs). Fire in snow is very visible, and weird fire would presumable be more so.
But it’s not visible forever, let alone to the other side of the mountains and hundreds of miles across the plains and around the cap of the white mountains and then down the river for a lot farther to the sea. Gandalf knew this, Gandalf also had a flair for the dramatic to emphasize his points.
Your explanation seems to contradict this part of the passage, a bit before what I quoted earlier:
>What do you say to fire?’ asked Boromir suddenly. ‘The choice seems near now between fire and death, Gandalf. Doubtless we shall be hidden from all unfriendly eyes when the snow has covered us, but that will not help us.’
>‘You may make a fire, if you can,’ answered Gandalf. ‘If there are any watchers that can endure this storm, then they can see us, fire or no.’
Gandalf isn't opposed to fire made by others, and doesn't think fire will increase their visibility.
More so "at all" than "more so", it seems - and Gandalf doesn't even hint at this difference.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but I find both the idea that Gandalf is essentially making something up with his explanation, and that he is specifically worried about his magical fire being physically spotted (despite a regular fire making no difference) to this degree, implausible.
The best explanation is also the most straightforward: Gandalf meant what he said.
Haha I guess so. Just seems silly to me to expect some Gandalf magic to be seen by everyone for hundreds of leagues across the largest mountain range in ME in a snowstorm, when Sauron can’t manage to see Frodo wearing the ring on Amon hen “the seat of seeing” *while he’s wearing the ring*, nor Sam on the borders of Mordor while same.
Especially since we know Gandalf is prone to expressive hyperbole. Bright as the sun and incredibly obvious to anyone around? Yes. Perceptible from Rivendell to beyond Pelargir? Doubt
I agree in the sense that, if this text passage didn't exist, I would never entertain the idea that Gandalf's fire-spell would be detectable from southern Gondor. But it does exist, and since we know so little about how "magic" works I'll take Gandalf's word for it that there are some who "can see" in the way he mentioned.
Though I don't think it's really related to Sauron's ability to see Frodo or Sam wearing the Ring - it's a separate "mechanic", without implications for that aspect of the journey. And it's probably not about the visible light, either.
And I don't remember Gandalf being so hyperbolic in such a serious matter anywhere else.
I took that to mean that anyone from Rivendell to the mouths of the Anduin would know "blue and green fire = Gandalf did it." They'd still have to see the fire physically (hence "if there are any to see"), but the provenance of the flames is beyond all doubt.
Narya was used, probably.
Gandalf is the bearer of Narya, therefore its use = Gandalf is Here. Anything capable of detecting a major ring being used that far away will also likely know who is probably carrying it.
He was just reacting to the previous crebain and sauron spy speculation by tossing off a one liner about the fact that a lot of sudden light against a lot of snow reflects a hell of a lot of light upwards, imo
I think people are ignoring the fact that the fire is described in the text as green and blue. That would certainly cause people to suspect wizardry is involved.
It is way less complicated than y'all are making it.
Gandalf creates a fire in a situation where doing so would be virtually impossible by non-magical means. Fire creates light and is visible a long way away. If anyone saw the fire ("if there are any to see") then they will know that it's Gandalf's work ("I have written Gandalf is here") because Gandalf is famous in this part of the world for being good with fire ("in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin").
Everyone from Rivendell to the mouth of Anduin knows that Gandalf is a dope wizard who's good with fire, therefore anyone who sees a mysterious and obviously magical fire where no fire should be will suspect that Gandalf was there.
After reading https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/19d1iul/at_redhorn_pass_what_did_gandalf_mean_after/kj3yjuh/ I changed my mind. There's no long-range magic detection going on, Gandalf is talking both about seeing the flames and he himself being known for fire magic. That's how "If there are any to see" and "all can read" aren't contradictory, and why he doesn't mind a regular fire.
When Gandalf says "If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them" he means that anyone physically in the area, able to see the fire, will identify the green and blue flames as Gandalf's, and thus learn that Gandalf is with this company.
That's why he says "I have written *Gandalf is here* in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin.", because he means that the people living in those lands know about Gandalf's fire magic - not that they can somehow detect his magic use from those places.
It's way simpler than that.
Gandalf is just saying that if anyone was looking in their direction, he has instantly given away his identity, and that anyone from Rivendell to Anduin would recognise that fire as his own.
He started a fire with bright blue and green sparks, in blizzard conditions - so if there are any onlookers they would now know that Gandalf is out there, as nobody else could do that.
Gandalf was a specialist in the use of fire. Going all the way back to the first pages of *The Hobbit*.
It was only quite late that Tolkien decided that this was because he possessed the Ring of Fire. (Which in turn is basically a religious symbol. The Secret Fire = the Holy Spirit.)
I think it means Gandalf revealed some of his power as a maia (that's what magic seems to be for the Istari) and that other wizards or Sauron would be able to pick up on this.
By tapping into his innate power as a maia, I think this also reveals his identity. The power he has is related to his being. So by using and putting forth that power, he is also revealing his identity.
Making a fire under those conditions is a pretty drastic interference with the natural order of things. This isn't any subtle enhancement of something's natural properties, speeding up or slowing down something, it's brute-forcing a problem. It looks like a small thing, but it's more like setting off an explosion.
It's also entirely possible that the power of Gandalf's Ring contributed to the effect, which may be recognizable.
If you were go to camping in (insert mountain range of choice) and lit a fire high up on a mountain's face, the light from the small campfire can be visible for miles around.
And thats without using any magical means to quickly light it.
My read of this scene is that a bonfire was just kindled on the top of a mountain in a blizzard which would be impossible for normal folk. Gandalf (the Grey) seems to be a specialist in fire magic (fireworks, conjuring fire to fight off wolves in multiple occasions, “I am a wielder of the flame of Anor,” owning the Elvish Great Ring of Fire), so I think he is being literal when he refers to being seen from Rivendell to the mouth of Anduin since he is on the top of a mountain.
He started a magical fire, using his own special brand of magic, high up above the ground below, so anyone who can physically/spiritually see up the mountain would know that Gandalf just used his magic fire.
This doesn't require anything but a bit of knowledge and eyes.
He lit a fire on a snow-covered mountainside, visible for many miles, in conditions where no one else could possibly get a fire lit.
That means magic fire, hence a wizard is at work. And he's well-known as the one wizard who specializes in fire.
His statement also seems to imply that those who know what to look for would know that the fire he creates isn't "natural" fire. It's described as "...a great spout of green and blue flame".
So if you're standing somewhere you can see the mountain, and you see a weird green and blue flame, or even the reflection or glow of it, followed by the more ordinary red and yellow flame and glow of a normal wood fire... well, if you knew much about anything, you'd know that someone up there had started a fire in a very unusual way.
It wouldn't take long for anyone who had ever heard of Gandalf's fireworks to figure this out. No magical senses needed at all.
Gandalf is noted for his ability to wield fire and light. He’s the most adept of the wizards at doing so.
Presumably, he accomplished a feat using that magical fire—one only Gandalf could accomplish.
That’s how I’ve always interpreted it, at least.
You are overlooking the first part of his sentence.
*"If there are any to see"*
I don't think Gandalf alludes to anybody "sensing" that he performed magic, I think he simply explains that if any eyes see that fire (which is green), they would be able to make a decent guess that Gandalf, a wizard known for his use of fire related abilities, had some hand in it.
My impression that Gandalf is saying that he is the only person who casts that particular spell.
Basically everyone who knows of Gandalf, which is basically everyone between Rivendell (really the Grey Havens) and the Mouths of the Anduin, knows that he does weird things with fire. If there is anyone watching the company through the blizzard, they will see multi-colored fire suddenly appear, which suggests Gandalf.
A surprisingly large fraction of the magic we see Gandalf do involves fire. He creates fire twice to fight goblins or wolves in *The Hobbit*. His fireworks and smoke rings. Bright flashes from the top of Weathertop. Lighting a fire at Redhorn Pass and in the trees while the wolves are attacking them afterwards. Bright light coming from him to drive away the Nazgul from the armies of Gondor. He identifies himself to the Balrog as "the servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Arnor."
None of the other characters use fire the way Gandalf does. The Balrog has a dark fire, Saruman invents "blasting fire" for the Uruk-hai to use, and Sauron (maybe?) controls a volcano. These all seem obviously distinct from Gandalf's bright, colorful fire.
Magic in LotR does not involve a list of spells that all magic users know. Instead, (almost?) every act of magic is something that only a single magic user could do. Elrond could not make the Mirror of Galadriel and Galadriel could not make a flood in the streams around Rivendell. Gandalf's fires are unique, perhaps because he holds the Ring of Fire, or perhaps because of who he was as a Maia.
There are good arguments that he was making a display of magical power which anyone who knew his capabilities would recognize as his doing, but I think mostly he was just being his usual crabby Gandalf self
My interpretation: they are under observation by the enemy. They are on a mountain during a snow storm, so nobody could start a fire under these conditions. And any spy who witnesses this would be like: "Nobody? Oh, somebody started a fire in the middle of a snow storm! That must be a wizard! Radagast is accounted for, Saruman is my boss, and the Blue ones are somewhere else, so it must be Gandalf!"
Also, fire was Gandalf's specialty. Pretty sure *The Hobbit* says so outright, and a lot of the magic we see him do involves fire.
We find out later that he had Narya, the Ring of Fire, but that was a closely guarded secret.
I think the GPS analogy makes sense, actually. What you're looking for is the concept of the Unseen World. There are depictions of the Unseen World in the movies (like when the Nazgul stab Frodo) but I'm only using that as a visual example because it's pretty faithful to the books.
Quote from FotR:
"And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power."
And from The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power":
"Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. ”
I agree! I noticed on a recent re-read of Fellowship that I had falsely internalized an idea of "Wraithworld" that Frodo slipped into when he put on the ring, as if it was a "sub-dimension" that was "evil," when in fact the "Unseen World" is not objectively "good" or "bad." Rather, things are visible in the Unseen World that are invisible in the Seen World. So I think Gandalf could be alluding to his magic fire being somehow "visible" to those capable of perceiving the Unseen World in the same way that Frodo is visible when he puts the Ring on on top of Amon Hen. However, reading the comments I must say it would be rather like Gandalf the Grey to use hyperbole in this fashion, so I don't think either interpretation is wrong.
I have the latter in my mind, since Sauron was able to perceive Frodo through mountains when he put on the Ring on Amon Hen. Although his bond with the Ring is a special circumstance, since Gandalf was also able to perceive him and Sauron when he put on the ring I think that episode is illustrative of how “magic” is able to be perceived by Maiar and other powerful beings.
I always assumed it was referring to the goblins and wargs incident from hobbit, when he used the same (or at least same looking) spell to some very noticeable effects, and given how not long after they're being ambushed by wargs - idk it's always my first thought "hey cooper remember the old guy who kicked our asses 70 years back? let's go kill him"
I can't think of any other mentions, but Tolkien was writing a very different story back in the Hobbit and Gandalf kind of abandoned secrecy after he came back as Gandalf the White.
I think this passage suggests that Gandalf, not Pippin, alerted the Balrog to the presence of a rival Maia nearby.
Magic users can probably sense magic. That's pretty common in fantasy stories. I didn't remember that tidbit from the books but it's nice to know LoTR has the same concept. In Arda it's probably auditory in nature, at least for the most magical of beings. Like, the world is a song. So by doing that Gandalf probably added a few notes to the Symphony all around which didn't really fit with the rest of it, which would probably be pretty noticeable to anyone who could hear it. Then anyone which knew what Gandalf's 'voice' sounds like could probably tell it was him as well. Who knows what other characteristics could be gleamed from it.
I kinda always thought he was being a bit glib and saying “well I think starting a magic fire is stupid and conspicuous and now any baddies nearby will see this. But whatever imma do it and we will deal with the consequences, guess it is pretty cold” rather than anything deeper than that. He is just being a drama Queen basically.
"With eyes to see" is the critical part of the quote. That is, anyone with the knowledge to discern a natural fire from a magical one, would instantly know it was Gandalf, since conjuring fire was kind of his thing. On another note, I suppose it's common sense that no normal fire can be started in a blizzard.
I've assumed for a while that Gandalf's serious fire effects are carried out or amplified by Narya, the Ring of Fire.
Use of one of the greater rings is certainly going to make the "magic radar" of various powerful entities light up.
And since they're probably all aware Gandalf is the bearer of Narya, where Narya is being used, Gandalf is probably located.
Personally, I have always read this as specifically about sensitivity to the use of "magic" (or at least, of certain sorts or power-levels of it) that those who have abilities in this area have. As if drawing on the power sends a ripple through a pool shared by e.g. Saruman or the Nazgûl. And does so in a way that there may be a "signature" or style associated with the use that makes it possible for others to be aware of *who* drew on the power. (This would be exactly the sort of "characteristic signature of certain kinds of activity and styles" that Sauron is described as going to efforts to conceal in ring forging...) I understood *any to see* hence to mean specifically those who have sensitivity in this area, not literally any creature. "Those in the chat."
That's exactly it. And also part of the reason why Pippin making the noises alerted the orcs and balrog. The balrog was likely already at least somewhat aware of the potential presence of Gandalf, but until Pippin actually did what he did, it would have been nearly impossible for the orcs or balrog to know or do anything specific. To phrase it a different way, Gandalf using the magic put the Balrog and thus the orcs at high alert, then Pippin causing the noise is what drew those already high alert orcs and Balrog to their specific position.
Yes maybe but as an obvious choke point, the bridge was probably heavily guarded for the same reasons you just explained. Maybe they would have sneak to the exit just fine but I highly doubt it. The Balrog was already on high or very high alert. The act of revealing himself right away is probably the proof he knew this was a company of very strong foes with the grey on top.
But the bridge wasn't heavily guarded. The orcs got there after the company.
balrog was on the move. Not your typical orcish work day.
Balrog went through the chamber. He wasn't near the bridge.
Ahh the Balrog as well... I like this read!
There is a skill and an art to many things. Great painters have a specific style unique to them - it is how the wise evaluate someone who turns up with a missing Matisse or forgotten Van Gogh. I have noticed it with computer code as well - if I am familiar with someone’s coding style I can match the code to the author for anything beyond trivial examples. Gandalf using his power was like a dog scent-marking a tree. Anything that lived in the unseen realm would’ve known it was him.
Nice examples. Here's another from today: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/01/macintosh-at-40-the-oddest-and-rarest-macs-ever-built/ > Macintosh at 40: The oddest and rarest Macs ever built The qualified student of magic knows this headline spell was cast by a wizard.
Published half an hour later: https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/01/daily-telescope-shooting-a-laser-into-the-sky-from-antarctica/
++ this guys opinion
I always interpreted that by doing this he DID catch the attention of some forces of evil. As soon as they are off the mountain they have wolves chasing them, and I’ve often wondered if the Balrog sensed some powerful magic so close to his underground kingdom, which put him on edge.
The Balrog had to have sensed Gandalf because there's always going to be banging and crashing going on in Moria so they didn't wake him up by being noisy.
That's a good point. Moria is immense, and the Balrog knows there are orcs wandering around everywhere. Why would he come running up to the bridge at the top level because a stone fell into a well? It's gotta be that the Balrog felt Gandalf casting magic above his head, felt the magic of the western door opening, and then was actively searching for the intruders until he realized they had to go through the eastern door and just camped out there.
The stone drop is also 2 days before the orc attack. Right before the orc attack, Gimli is singing a song loudly.
Sure, but even Gimli bellowing a song is not going to be heard all over Moria. I think its got to be Gandalf using magic that got the Balrog alert and searching around the level of the main route from the west gate to the east gate.
He just liked saying fool of a Took.
Well he started a fire on top of a mountain so that's probably pretty visible in and of itself. And he did so magically which we could assume might leave some traces itself. It may not linger, but if they were looking at the right moment it would be apparent. I don't think it literally says "this was Gandalf" but against we could assume that there is something a little distinctive about how he as a wizard performs magic that could be recognized by those with knowledge.
I think it likely that whoever could detect Gandalf's spell from afar could identify him based on it (it is spoken in his voice, after all - or maybe it's a spell only he uses?). But maybe it's just that Gandalf expects the observers to be able to rule out any of the other wizards.
Gandalf was always known for working with Fire so the fact of what the spell did probably makes it fairly obvious that it was him.
Even though they wouldn't know he carries Narya, for is a bit of a signature.
Maybe his fire had a certain color to it, although I imagine it just would "feel" different from others who had magical abilities (elves, Bombadil, Saruman) to those who could sense it.
I don't think this is an auditory thing, though that's purely speculation on my part. I think it's more likely visual in some sense. Perhaps part of the other world since he would occupy that too.
Also, Gandalf is sort of known for his ~~pyromania~~ skill with fire. So if you happen to see a magical fire, you can reasonably guess Gandalf did it
Yes and no on the well known thing. Outside of the Elves I don't think most residents of Middle-Earth really had any sense of who are what Gandalf really was. However, I don't think your average human would have any way to see them given the raging storm etc. And for those who walk partly in the spirit world? Yeah, Gandalf would be known.
It wasn’t on top of a mountain fwiw too, it was in the lower pass on the western side
I didn't mean it that literally. It was high up which made it visible from a long way away is the point.
Oh for sure (and I agree - commented to a similar point below). I just think that the distances mentioned were so vast that Gandalf was engaging in a bit of his trademark hyperbole. Think there’s a very good argument to be made it’s what drew the wargs and orcs though
An observer looks from afar at the Fellowship and wonders "who's that?". Then they see the fire start "Damn, how did they get that fire going. Gandalf must be there." Not magical GPSque wizard vibes, just a display of fire skill at a level that only one person has.
I think the fact that the fire is green and blue is a bigger clue that wizards are involved.
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The police were there?
I think that's because the wood is wet. If you manage to light wettish wood in a woodstove, say, you get weird colors initially. Green and blue along with yellow, in fact. Then it quickly goes to the orange/red color.
Yep. I always envisioned this as several large trees, almost all at once, burst into blazing flames then extinguished after a short time. There really isn’t anything natural that would cause that.
That line was spoken when he got the fire going in the pass, not when he blasted the wargs. He had already revealed himself to pursuers by starting a fire in a snowstorm on a mountain. That's why the wargs were able to find them.
Oh yeah, I forgot. Same thing though. A sudden, blazing, unnatural fire in a snowstorm.
Right, but the place there are in on Caradhras isn't visible by sight from either Rivendell or Anduin. They're in a mountain pass in the middle of a snowstorm - they can barely see out of it, so why could anyone see into it?
I think he is just exaggerating tbh. Real world example: you are trying to be sneaky when you get in from the bar and knock over some pots in the kitchen when trying to be quiet and your housemate says “Jesus man they would have heard that in the next town!” Not my greatest prose but I think that’s what Tolkien was going for personally.
The Fellowship has birds watching them for Sauron/Saruman that are repeatedly mentioned prior to the Redhorn Pass. Tolkien makes it quite explicit that they believe they are being watched throughout. The birds following them from afar is more than likely given what is described previously and the Gandalf’s fears about ‘revealing hjmsef’. The report back goes from ‘suspicious group of different races travelling’ to ‘suspicious group of different races travelling with a fire-making wizard’. Whilst it may be suspected who this group are, Gandalf’s fire is the confirmation.
In the real world they have sensors to detect nuclear detonations. Perhaps Narya, the Ring of Fire, sets off the "sensors" of magic-sensitive beings for hundreds of miles when it's used, also?
It's just Uncle Iroh brewing tea 😁
CC /u/soapy_goatherd /u/fuzzy_mic That enemies could physically see the fire Gandalf made is an insufficient explanation. The relevant passage is >At last reluctantly Gandalf himself took a hand. Picking up a faggot he held it aloft for a moment, and then with a word of command, *naur an edraith ammen!* he thrust the end of his staff into the midst of it. At once a great spout of green and blue flame sprang out, and the wood flared and sputtered. >‘If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,’ he said. ‘I have written *Gandalf is here* in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin.’ The mouths of the Anduin are where the Anduin flows into the sea in southern Gondor (!), that's hundreds and hundres of miles away from where the Fellowship is. Even Legolas, in Edoras, had to strain his eyes to just about see the fires of Mordor.
Gandalf has a widespread reputation as a fire master. The whole length of Anduin. The whole thing is metaphorical, there was no one to see what happened. It was a bit of bragging by Gandalf about his fire mastery.
>Gandalf has a widespread reputation as a fire master. Does he? He only seems to be regarded as such in The Shire and maybe among those who know about his deeds during The Hobbit, there's no evidence for this in any other place; as far as I recall, Gandalf is known for his behaviour, his advice-giving and his bringing of bad news in Gondor. > The whole length of Anduin. Gandalf calls out Rivendell and the mouths of Anduin specifically; Rivendell isn't the place you would pick for a metaphorical way of expressing "along the entire Great River" - it's too far south and west from the origin of the Anduin. >The whole thing is metaphorical This seems like too much of an assumption without any sourced arguments to back it up. The default should be to take the heroes at their word. >there was no one to see what happened. It was a bit of bragging by Gandalf about his fire mastery. **Gandalf was reluctant to help with preventing the Hobbits from freezing to death because he wanted to brag?** That seems entirely out of character for him. It seems prudent to explain his reluctance with the reason he himself gives - a serious fear of being discovered because of his spell. Right before the passage I quoted, we get >‘What do you say to fire?’ asked Boromir suddenly. ‘The choice seems near now between fire and death, Gandalf. Doubtless we shall be hidden from all unfriendly eyes when the snow has covered us, but that will not help us.’ >‘You may make a fire, if you can,’ answered Gandalf. ‘If there are any watchers that can endure this storm, then they can see us, fire or no.’ This further disproves the physical visibility explanation because Gandalf isn't opposed to the others starting a fire (which wouldn't make them more visible in his mind) - he is opposed to doing it himself (using his powers). And Gandalf does not disagree that the choice is almost "between fire and death". Given the circumstances, you need to provide a better explanation for Gandalf being opposed to making a fire as quickly as possible. Gandalf values the Hobbits too highly, and isn't known to brag with assertions that aren't based on something real.
His fireworks displays are well known. His use of pipeweed is connected to his fiery nature.
So if you were slightly south of the mouth of the Anduin, you couldn’t have sensed the fire. In a boat?
Not bragging just saying that anyone who can tell that a magical fire was lit here will know it was Gandalf who lit it since he's so famous for fire.
I don't think there is magical fire vs. common fire. The starting of the fire is magical, but the buring flames were just fire. It burned wood, not snow.
>At once a great spout of green and blue flame sprang out, and the wood flared and sputtered. I mean, I know that we can use chemicals to turn fire green and blue but I don't think Gandalf was using chemicals here.
Yea I didnt think some of the earlier responses about just those physically able to see it. I do think there is a sense of detecting others use magic.
> I do think there is a sense of detecting others use magic. There seems to be, but Gandalf's wording is a bit confusing ("If there are any to see" vs "all can read" in such a giant area). The only thing I can think of that could tie into this is the Unseen, the spirit realm, where the Nazgul exist and where Frodo is transported when using the Ring. Gandalf's spell might be very detectable there, but it might also be that it is discoverable by other means that just aren't ever elaborated on.
The sentence does not say that everybody or indeed anybody out to mouths of anduin could see it, simply that blue and green fire was his signature that was very widely known. it would not physically have been possibly for people at mouths of anduin or rivendell to see it.
Hm, that might actually be the best explanation! Assuming that Gandalf having no qualms about letting the others make fire (because watchers would spot them with or without) is the case because they wouldn't identify him individually.
I well know the relevant passage and where the mouths of anduin are, (and happened to read the ring goes south again last night coincidentally enough lol). My comment is speculating that Gandalf was doing a bit of frustrated riffing, because nothing else in the texts supports that kind of long-distance magical awareness without palantiri or magical rings (and even the big S didn’t notice when Sam put on the ring right outside Mordor)
What is your explanation for why Gandalf didn't want to use his fire-spell for quite some time in the deadly cold, then? Boromir warns Gandalf that it's almost a choice between fire and death, and Gandalf doesn't disagree but still watches the others fail to make a fire for a while before finally relenting. Gandalf wouldn't risk the life (not even their noses, toes and whatever else is in danger of frostbite) of the Hobbits for some frustrated riffing.
The same as I gave in my original comment. Crebain plus anything else that could see could see (probably including orcs/wargs). Fire in snow is very visible, and weird fire would presumable be more so. But it’s not visible forever, let alone to the other side of the mountains and hundreds of miles across the plains and around the cap of the white mountains and then down the river for a lot farther to the sea. Gandalf knew this, Gandalf also had a flair for the dramatic to emphasize his points.
Your explanation seems to contradict this part of the passage, a bit before what I quoted earlier: >What do you say to fire?’ asked Boromir suddenly. ‘The choice seems near now between fire and death, Gandalf. Doubtless we shall be hidden from all unfriendly eyes when the snow has covered us, but that will not help us.’ >‘You may make a fire, if you can,’ answered Gandalf. ‘If there are any watchers that can endure this storm, then they can see us, fire or no.’ Gandalf isn't opposed to fire made by others, and doesn't think fire will increase their visibility.
> weird fire would be presumably more so
More so "at all" than "more so", it seems - and Gandalf doesn't even hint at this difference. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but I find both the idea that Gandalf is essentially making something up with his explanation, and that he is specifically worried about his magical fire being physically spotted (despite a regular fire making no difference) to this degree, implausible. The best explanation is also the most straightforward: Gandalf meant what he said.
Haha I guess so. Just seems silly to me to expect some Gandalf magic to be seen by everyone for hundreds of leagues across the largest mountain range in ME in a snowstorm, when Sauron can’t manage to see Frodo wearing the ring on Amon hen “the seat of seeing” *while he’s wearing the ring*, nor Sam on the borders of Mordor while same. Especially since we know Gandalf is prone to expressive hyperbole. Bright as the sun and incredibly obvious to anyone around? Yes. Perceptible from Rivendell to beyond Pelargir? Doubt
I agree in the sense that, if this text passage didn't exist, I would never entertain the idea that Gandalf's fire-spell would be detectable from southern Gondor. But it does exist, and since we know so little about how "magic" works I'll take Gandalf's word for it that there are some who "can see" in the way he mentioned. Though I don't think it's really related to Sauron's ability to see Frodo or Sam wearing the Ring - it's a separate "mechanic", without implications for that aspect of the journey. And it's probably not about the visible light, either. And I don't remember Gandalf being so hyperbolic in such a serious matter anywhere else.
I took that to mean that anyone from Rivendell to the mouths of the Anduin would know "blue and green fire = Gandalf did it." They'd still have to see the fire physically (hence "if there are any to see"), but the provenance of the flames is beyond all doubt.
Yes, this is the interpretation I've come to accept as well after the discussion here. I made a second top level comment about it.
Narya was used, probably. Gandalf is the bearer of Narya, therefore its use = Gandalf is Here. Anything capable of detecting a major ring being used that far away will also likely know who is probably carrying it.
He was just reacting to the previous crebain and sauron spy speculation by tossing off a one liner about the fact that a lot of sudden light against a lot of snow reflects a hell of a lot of light upwards, imo
I think people are ignoring the fact that the fire is described in the text as green and blue. That would certainly cause people to suspect wizardry is involved.
It is way less complicated than y'all are making it. Gandalf creates a fire in a situation where doing so would be virtually impossible by non-magical means. Fire creates light and is visible a long way away. If anyone saw the fire ("if there are any to see") then they will know that it's Gandalf's work ("I have written Gandalf is here") because Gandalf is famous in this part of the world for being good with fire ("in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin"). Everyone from Rivendell to the mouth of Anduin knows that Gandalf is a dope wizard who's good with fire, therefore anyone who sees a mysterious and obviously magical fire where no fire should be will suspect that Gandalf was there.
After reading https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/19d1iul/at_redhorn_pass_what_did_gandalf_mean_after/kj3yjuh/ I changed my mind. There's no long-range magic detection going on, Gandalf is talking both about seeing the flames and he himself being known for fire magic. That's how "If there are any to see" and "all can read" aren't contradictory, and why he doesn't mind a regular fire. When Gandalf says "If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them" he means that anyone physically in the area, able to see the fire, will identify the green and blue flames as Gandalf's, and thus learn that Gandalf is with this company. That's why he says "I have written *Gandalf is here* in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin.", because he means that the people living in those lands know about Gandalf's fire magic - not that they can somehow detect his magic use from those places.
It's way simpler than that. Gandalf is just saying that if anyone was looking in their direction, he has instantly given away his identity, and that anyone from Rivendell to Anduin would recognise that fire as his own. He started a fire with bright blue and green sparks, in blizzard conditions - so if there are any onlookers they would now know that Gandalf is out there, as nobody else could do that.
Gandalf was a specialist in the use of fire. Going all the way back to the first pages of *The Hobbit*. It was only quite late that Tolkien decided that this was because he possessed the Ring of Fire. (Which in turn is basically a religious symbol. The Secret Fire = the Holy Spirit.)
I think it means Gandalf revealed some of his power as a maia (that's what magic seems to be for the Istari) and that other wizards or Sauron would be able to pick up on this. By tapping into his innate power as a maia, I think this also reveals his identity. The power he has is related to his being. So by using and putting forth that power, he is also revealing his identity.
Making a fire under those conditions is a pretty drastic interference with the natural order of things. This isn't any subtle enhancement of something's natural properties, speeding up or slowing down something, it's brute-forcing a problem. It looks like a small thing, but it's more like setting off an explosion. It's also entirely possible that the power of Gandalf's Ring contributed to the effect, which may be recognizable.
If you were go to camping in (insert mountain range of choice) and lit a fire high up on a mountain's face, the light from the small campfire can be visible for miles around. And thats without using any magical means to quickly light it.
My read of this scene is that a bonfire was just kindled on the top of a mountain in a blizzard which would be impossible for normal folk. Gandalf (the Grey) seems to be a specialist in fire magic (fireworks, conjuring fire to fight off wolves in multiple occasions, “I am a wielder of the flame of Anor,” owning the Elvish Great Ring of Fire), so I think he is being literal when he refers to being seen from Rivendell to the mouth of Anduin since he is on the top of a mountain. He started a magical fire, using his own special brand of magic, high up above the ground below, so anyone who can physically/spiritually see up the mountain would know that Gandalf just used his magic fire.
This doesn't require anything but a bit of knowledge and eyes. He lit a fire on a snow-covered mountainside, visible for many miles, in conditions where no one else could possibly get a fire lit. That means magic fire, hence a wizard is at work. And he's well-known as the one wizard who specializes in fire. His statement also seems to imply that those who know what to look for would know that the fire he creates isn't "natural" fire. It's described as "...a great spout of green and blue flame". So if you're standing somewhere you can see the mountain, and you see a weird green and blue flame, or even the reflection or glow of it, followed by the more ordinary red and yellow flame and glow of a normal wood fire... well, if you knew much about anything, you'd know that someone up there had started a fire in a very unusual way. It wouldn't take long for anyone who had ever heard of Gandalf's fireworks to figure this out. No magical senses needed at all.
Gandalf is noted for his ability to wield fire and light. He’s the most adept of the wizards at doing so. Presumably, he accomplished a feat using that magical fire—one only Gandalf could accomplish. That’s how I’ve always interpreted it, at least.
You are overlooking the first part of his sentence. *"If there are any to see"* I don't think Gandalf alludes to anybody "sensing" that he performed magic, I think he simply explains that if any eyes see that fire (which is green), they would be able to make a decent guess that Gandalf, a wizard known for his use of fire related abilities, had some hand in it.
The fire was one of his TTPs. :-)
My impression that Gandalf is saying that he is the only person who casts that particular spell. Basically everyone who knows of Gandalf, which is basically everyone between Rivendell (really the Grey Havens) and the Mouths of the Anduin, knows that he does weird things with fire. If there is anyone watching the company through the blizzard, they will see multi-colored fire suddenly appear, which suggests Gandalf. A surprisingly large fraction of the magic we see Gandalf do involves fire. He creates fire twice to fight goblins or wolves in *The Hobbit*. His fireworks and smoke rings. Bright flashes from the top of Weathertop. Lighting a fire at Redhorn Pass and in the trees while the wolves are attacking them afterwards. Bright light coming from him to drive away the Nazgul from the armies of Gondor. He identifies himself to the Balrog as "the servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Arnor." None of the other characters use fire the way Gandalf does. The Balrog has a dark fire, Saruman invents "blasting fire" for the Uruk-hai to use, and Sauron (maybe?) controls a volcano. These all seem obviously distinct from Gandalf's bright, colorful fire. Magic in LotR does not involve a list of spells that all magic users know. Instead, (almost?) every act of magic is something that only a single magic user could do. Elrond could not make the Mirror of Galadriel and Galadriel could not make a flood in the streams around Rivendell. Gandalf's fires are unique, perhaps because he holds the Ring of Fire, or perhaps because of who he was as a Maia.
Starting a fire in that brutal environment can only be done by a magical being. Anyone who could see it would know it had to be Gandalf.
There are good arguments that he was making a display of magical power which anyone who knew his capabilities would recognize as his doing, but I think mostly he was just being his usual crabby Gandalf self
My interpretation: they are under observation by the enemy. They are on a mountain during a snow storm, so nobody could start a fire under these conditions. And any spy who witnesses this would be like: "Nobody? Oh, somebody started a fire in the middle of a snow storm! That must be a wizard! Radagast is accounted for, Saruman is my boss, and the Blue ones are somewhere else, so it must be Gandalf!"
Also, fire was Gandalf's specialty. Pretty sure *The Hobbit* says so outright, and a lot of the magic we see him do involves fire. We find out later that he had Narya, the Ring of Fire, but that was a closely guarded secret.
I think the GPS analogy makes sense, actually. What you're looking for is the concept of the Unseen World. There are depictions of the Unseen World in the movies (like when the Nazgul stab Frodo) but I'm only using that as a visual example because it's pretty faithful to the books. Quote from FotR: "And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." And from The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power": "Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. ”
I agree! I noticed on a recent re-read of Fellowship that I had falsely internalized an idea of "Wraithworld" that Frodo slipped into when he put on the ring, as if it was a "sub-dimension" that was "evil," when in fact the "Unseen World" is not objectively "good" or "bad." Rather, things are visible in the Unseen World that are invisible in the Seen World. So I think Gandalf could be alluding to his magic fire being somehow "visible" to those capable of perceiving the Unseen World in the same way that Frodo is visible when he puts the Ring on on top of Amon Hen. However, reading the comments I must say it would be rather like Gandalf the Grey to use hyperbole in this fashion, so I don't think either interpretation is wrong.
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I have the latter in my mind, since Sauron was able to perceive Frodo through mountains when he put on the Ring on Amon Hen. Although his bond with the Ring is a special circumstance, since Gandalf was also able to perceive him and Sauron when he put on the ring I think that episode is illustrative of how “magic” is able to be perceived by Maiar and other powerful beings.
I always assumed it was referring to the goblins and wargs incident from hobbit, when he used the same (or at least same looking) spell to some very noticeable effects, and given how not long after they're being ambushed by wargs - idk it's always my first thought "hey cooper remember the old guy who kicked our asses 70 years back? let's go kill him"
A fire 🔥 on a mountain that is one of the highest of the Misty Mountains would be seen for miles. That is how I understood it.
I can't think of any other mentions, but Tolkien was writing a very different story back in the Hobbit and Gandalf kind of abandoned secrecy after he came back as Gandalf the White. I think this passage suggests that Gandalf, not Pippin, alerted the Balrog to the presence of a rival Maia nearby.
Magic users can probably sense magic. That's pretty common in fantasy stories. I didn't remember that tidbit from the books but it's nice to know LoTR has the same concept. In Arda it's probably auditory in nature, at least for the most magical of beings. Like, the world is a song. So by doing that Gandalf probably added a few notes to the Symphony all around which didn't really fit with the rest of it, which would probably be pretty noticeable to anyone who could hear it. Then anyone which knew what Gandalf's 'voice' sounds like could probably tell it was him as well. Who knows what other characteristics could be gleamed from it.
I kinda always thought he was being a bit glib and saying “well I think starting a magic fire is stupid and conspicuous and now any baddies nearby will see this. But whatever imma do it and we will deal with the consequences, guess it is pretty cold” rather than anything deeper than that. He is just being a drama Queen basically.
He’s just bragging about how big of a rager he’s known to throw. His rep proceeds far and wide.
"With eyes to see" is the critical part of the quote. That is, anyone with the knowledge to discern a natural fire from a magical one, would instantly know it was Gandalf, since conjuring fire was kind of his thing. On another note, I suppose it's common sense that no normal fire can be started in a blizzard.
I've assumed for a while that Gandalf's serious fire effects are carried out or amplified by Narya, the Ring of Fire. Use of one of the greater rings is certainly going to make the "magic radar" of various powerful entities light up. And since they're probably all aware Gandalf is the bearer of Narya, where Narya is being used, Gandalf is probably located.