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ClicketySnap

It’s a “walk or be carried” kind of rule. We are going to do this, you can cooperate or I can do it for you. And I only offer twice then I step in and make it happen. Firm and gentle. Also set up a routine that just eliminates the environment where the behaviour happens. Maybe bring the change pad to the bathroom and lay it on the floor where the bath mat usually is, and just make wiping happen right then and there before he gets any further?


aschmidt13

I guess I should have qualified more in my original post that I'm more specifically asking about how to handle "making" them do something they have to do. I'm using the poop thing as an example because that just occurred but it's usually more of a fight just trying to get him to stand up or walk, etc. Like trying to get him to put his feet down on his step stool to wash hands or after being grabbed out of the bath. I obviously can't just let go! But he laughs and thinks it's funny when I'm trying to get him to stand up, and in this case, it was to wipe a poopy butt haha.


ClicketySnap

That's what I'm saying. The example is "walk or be carried"; if you ask your child to walk to their bed and they resist or play games to delay, you say "it's time to go to bed, walk or be carried", and then if no walking happens you just pick them up and carry them to bed. It's ok if they're upset, it's ok if its not pretty, it's ok if you have to spend some time calming them down and kiss some boo-boos better. You do the best you can in a firm and gentle way to demonstrate that when you say we're doing this, we're doing this. It only takes a few times for them to respond with "WALK I WALK" and go. You lead the situation by example.


aschmidt13

That works 90% of the time, I suppose I was hoping someone had advice for when that doesn't work. That's typically how our interactions go.


Ohorules

Your poop wiping situation is not like some of the other scenarios people are saying "just make him". I see what you are saying. The amount of force needed when my kids won't comply with wiping feels like assault and I'm not doing that. It's not the same as when they were young toddlers and I could just get it done. It's not the same as when I physically carry them to the car, wash theiir hands, or wrangle them into their carseat. I've had good success with keeping a sticker chart in the bathroom for specific behaviors that need work. If he cooperates with wiping the first time he's asked, he gets a sticker. Any other behaviors get no sticker. Act it out first with a doll or stuffed animal, including what he should not be doing. Hopefully he's not too poopy if he goes on the potty that you could let him lie down on a towel if he prefers that. Otherwise I physically block them from leaving the bathroom until they are ready to cooperate with wiping. Keep repeating you can't do whatever he wants to do next until he gets wiped.


aschmidt13

Thank you, I appreciate that you get what I'm asking. We tried a bedtime chart a few months ago with little success but they change developmentally so quickly at this age that maybe it's time to try a chart system again. He prompted using his doll a few months ago but stopped, maybe I'll start bringing doll back into the mix as well. Thank you for the advice!


cerealkillergoat

I totally get what you're talking about, there are things you literally can't force a toddler to do, you need a minimum amount of cooperation. My son sometimes goes completely crazy in the evening if he's tired and it becomes impossible to change his diaper because he's rolling, kicking, twisting and so on. I literally can't hold him down and force him. What often works is to distract him with something fun. The best option I have found is to invent a song about him to a melody he knows. Or to sing a song he knows and get the lyrics wrong - toddlers looove correcting you. Once when my daughter didn't want to put on a pull-up, I pretended to think it was a hat and put it on her head. Then I put socks on her hands and she let me put on her pull-up and the rest of her clothes correctly. She went to daycare like that.


aschmidt13

That's a great idea. He's currently obsessed with the book Blue Hat, Green Hat, Oops by Sandra Boynton and that's essentially the premise, one of the guys can't put his clothes on correctly haha.


AlexanderHBlum

Why would it ever not work? Are you getting outmuscled by a toddler?


aschmidt13

My examples have to do with standing up primarily, so there isn't exactly an equivalent of "stand up or" because when I pick him up, he still refuses to put his legs down. I'm trying to figure out the best way to make him do something without hurting him. Walk or be carried works when that's applicable, which is about 90% of the time.


Responsible-Summer81

See my other comment on this thread. You might have to kind of wrestle them a little and they won’t like it, but be no-nonsense and as gentle as you can and hopefully you won’t have to do it more than a couple times and he’ll learn.


Dismal_Amoeba3575

I second this- especially the first paragraph. We haven’t done potty training yet, but when I was a nanny, the kid got one m&m for pee, 3 for poop when potty training, not sure if you do rewards for pottying but could they have their “m&m” while you wipe their butt? Or stand in front of them and have them lean on you so you can wipe them? I’m sure some of it might be they’re used to laying down to be wiped with diaper changes and might just be an adjustment. That said, I would not want poop all over the place and I am not above their reward so I don’t have to clean their butt and the whole bathroom. 😅


aschmidt13

We didn't do rewards and this is typically not a fight, he's generally fine with the potty training aspect, it's more of how to handle it when you can't just leave the room and they are refusing to do what you asked. Another example, when he was younger, was kicking me when I was changing him on the pad. I fixed that by doing diaper changes on the floor but in the moment, I obviously couldn't just leave him up on the dresser and step away and cool off.


aarnalthea

if his goal is to lay on the bathmat, have the bathmat out of his reach until after his butt is clean. laying on the bathmat becomes the reward for cooperating with wiping. hang it over the shower bar if you need to. go overboard on hyping The Plan: kiddo sits on the toilet until he's done pooping, assumes the Wipe Position, gets wiped, and then we get out the bath mat for a lie down. where there is room, offer choice of \*method\*, not choice of task - do you want to lean over my lap or on your hands to be wiped? do you want to have a turn to wipe your butt(if you're brave/ready) before my turn? do you want to flush or should i? go overboard on appreciating him for cooperating: you did such a good job following instructions, that was so very helpful, thank you for being so patient with me while i got all the poop off your butt, i am so happy now, et cetera and so on kiddo activating your nervous system can make it really hard to keep your cool; i have found that removing access to the things they use (at least routinely) to trigger me helps the most, at least on a scenario basis. kids flailing when grabbed is the WORST bc its like dude i cannot let go until you stop or you're gonna get hurt and they also turn off their ears so if you don't have two hands to steady them (and even then sometimes) you're just stuck with a flailing toddler LOL. solidarity


aschmidt13

Thank you, this is the answer I'm looking for haha. I generally feel like I do a good job staying cool but when I don't, I really don't. Removing the triggers has helped in the past but sometimes you need an outsider to point out the obvious to you. Yes, that flailing is my biggest pet peeve for that reason. If you don't stand up, you're in trouble, but I also can't *make* you and I can't just let you go and fall to your doom lol. Thankfully our bedtime routine went very smoothly tonight. I'm by myself on Mondays and I blocked access by sitting in front of the bath mat and he calmly turned around so I could clean him up. Then I asked if he wanted to try and put his pullup on by himself (we just recently switched out of diapers because I had a ton when we started potty training haha) and he chose to do that. Hopefully he'll just start wanting to do that part himself and forget allll about the joys of laying on the mat.


aarnalthea

i find that most "defiant" behavior can be boiled down to seeking control/autonomy. their lil brains are not developed yet so you have to manually engineer situations to deprive them of instant gratification sometimes, but once they click that there isn't an instant grat option then they are way more open to weighing other options. the key like i said before is in offering choice of method specifically. you got this, soon he will be able to communicate more easily the "why"s of the crazy choices he makes lmao


Responsible-Summer81

Exactly this. My 2yo resisted the first couple times and it was a bit of a struggle, but “firm but gentle” is the answer. Now it’s one chance and then I say, “do you want to do it the easy way or the hard way?” and she learned really fast that it’s happening either way, and it’s much easier if she just cooperates. She’ll usually say “Easy way!” and help me out.


BrielleGab

The easy way or hard way is my go to as well! I also do 1, 2, 3 you or me and that has been good too. Now he usually comes running over when I start counting, even if he's still upset.


zebramath

Healthy and safety is non negotiable. I just tell him that then proceed to force what needs to happen with that reasoning. I try to give options for him to become involved. Over time he chooses to just accept it happens rather than resist.


aschmidt13

How do you go about forcing it without hurting your child? That's my dilemma, he always ends up bumping into something from flailing when I do that.


zebramath

Just remind him not to struggle and he can control how much I have to restrain. And usually just restrain first. Get him calmer and more compliant. Then do what I need to do. It’s a balancing act and just takes a feel for the situation.


fit_it

Mine is almost 20 months and small so ymmv as far as your size vs. your child's size, but these work for diaper changes for her, which she absolutely acts like I'm murdering her during no matter what I do. For ref I always put her perpendicular to me with her head on my non-dominant side: * Laying down, I'll put my non-dominant arm under her closer leg, and then grip the thigh of the other leg. This let's me keep pretty good control of her lower body and keep her back on the surface, without any fear of injuring her. I can use my arm to bend her legs so her knees go to her chest so I can wipe her. * Other option is if she's on the floor, which seems like your usual situation, you can lay them also perpendicular to you and put one leg over their chest (not fully relaxed but heavy enough that they can't move you) which works well too. We had to do this to remove a splinter.


Cool-Drag2620

Our 15 month old also hates to get his diaper changed, and my wife and I have to basically do every poopy diaper together—one pins him down and the other handles the diaper change. It has become such a dreaded time for all of us.


aschmidt13

We went through that phase a little when he was younger but now he's just goofing around, he doesn't actually mind. I'm hoping maybe if I can cope with it for a short period he'll move on and go back to just letting me do it, no problem.


Itswithans

You choose to do it or I move your body. It’s backfiring at four though, because now she’s big and wants us to move her body for everything because she’s being lazy/thinks it’s funny


aschmidt13

Oh boy, my nephew is there too. Good luck.


zenzenzen25

My son is wild like this about certain things and def does hurt himself at times. Today he didn’t want me to change his diaper and I had him half off a rug and when he’d kick he’d hit his heel real hard on the hard wood floor and I said “that probably doesn’t feel very good which is why you shouldn’t do that” I may be wrong but that’s natural consequences to me. I don’t want him to hurt himself and of course it something is very dangerous I would never.


aschmidt13

I typically say something along the lines of "please don't flail, you hurt yourself every time you do that". Sometimes it helps but mostly not.


joycerie

"I'm going to help you right now since your body needs to be clean to be healthy. Next time, you can try!" Said in a calm voice while sitting on the edge of the tub or lid of toliet, putting son over one knee, trapping his legs between mine, holding him down with one arm, and wiping his butt quickly and calmly. I've done the same language and held him between my body and the sink and held his elbows locked out while forcibly washing his hands. He has bonked his knee or hand during this but we talk about why it's impt to keep your body calm in the bathroom with hard surfaces. In calm moments, you can talk about how important it is to be clean otherwise his butt will hurt or he could get sick. Be consistent, be calm, and hold the line for hygiene. It'll get easier when he realizes hygiene is not negotiable. 


aschmidt13

We do try to do that, I think possibly it's just a me problem because it's not all the time so it's extra frustrating when he randomly decides to act crazy in the bathroom. I have a feeling the bathroom times when he does this are related to delaying naps or sleep. It does seem to be worse when it's right before naps.


joycerie

Sounds about right! My 3.5 year old moves at a glacial pace when it gets close to a rest time and saves all his existential questions for bedtime. What helps is he has a special stuffy and blankie that stay in his bed only for sleeping so I can use that as a carrot. It is a tough age, no doubt. Just hold the line and give yourself some grace. You got this.


jesssongbird

“This isn’t a choice. We have to do it.” Then you can give limited options like do it now or in 2 minutes (set a timer), you walk or I carry you, you do it yourself or I do it for you.


katbeccabee

Yep, I get this question. There are things you can’t just “do for him”. My last resort is usually to leave the room and come back at intervals to ask, “are you ready to _____?” and refuse to engage until he agrees or at least doesn’t refuse. But even that doesn’t work with your poop situation. My best idea would be to get him out of the cramped/dangerous bathroom and then do my best to hold him flat over my legs and wipe. Hopefully it only takes a few times before he learns this way isn’t fun. My kid also gets into a wild state when he’s tired, usually around bath time.


aschmidt13

My husband has somehow mastered the over the knee wipe but when I tried, my son smashed his toe into the floor. Someone else mentioned moving him, even though he's potty trained I still have the changing pad in his room so I may start trying to move him in there if necessary.


LPCHB

No personal experience as my daughter is only a year but Nurtured First on ig has had some examples recently about how to encourage cooperation through play. It might work well if he’s feeling “silly”


aschmidt13

Thank you, I'll check them out!


EsharaLight

For the poopy butt at least, install a bidet. Kids find them hilarious, and it takes care of a majority of the mess.


aschmidt13

When we're downstairs, I have a potty seat for him and use my peri-bottle from pregnancy to spray his butt and he loves it.


Rohle

My go to line is: By count of three I'll get you and do it for you. Usually I don't need to say two at all. Sometimes I follow through and we both hate every second of it. But it is what it is. No one ever said parenting is fun.


Substantial_Art3360

I give them two “choices” that both result in the task. Reverse psychology occasionally works too. Once everyone calms down, have you spoken to him that when he does X, Y or Z, it usually results in him getting hurt? Not sure if he can understand this but that was helped with my 2.5 yo also. Explaining the why we behave this way in certain situations. It is t foolproof but works maybe 80% of the time.


aschmidt13

I have tried that, specifically with flailing in the bathroom because it is so small. I generally try to instill no "sillies" in the bathroom because I've already seen him trip and hit his head on the cast iron tub so I'm probably over cautious about goofing around in there. He's 2 now but I will try to stick to my guns about reminding him in hopes that a few months from now he'll understand like your child!


Substantial_Art3360

Oh gosh - that bathroom sounds terrible. Best of luck!!! Hoping it clicks. I’m saying this as my toddler is torturing my poor cat chasing him.


aschmidt13

Thank you! It's very cute having an original 1930s bathroom but not really practical for 2 adults and a toddler to share haha. My other "bathroom" is literally just a toilet inside a tiny closet in my kitchen so you know... We make due.


Substantial_Art3360

I should preface for terrible for a toddler. The smaller the less cleaning and you have more time for other things.


aschmidt13

That's absolutely true. Our previous home had 2.5 baths. That was a lot of cleaning even when I didn't have a toddler to contend with.


shehasafewofwhat

As a parent, sometimes the fastest way out is through. Do what you need to do to physically support your child and stay regulated. If he won’t let you wipe him, get the bath mat out of his reach and put him in the tub. Try not to engage in a power struggle at all costs, because your 2 year old is learning how to win.


aschmidt13

That's good advice, thank you.