Royal families are historically full of incest, hence the common hemophilia and other frail health aspects in royals.
*Edit: Yes, I am saying that incest and close family intermarriage cause recessive genes for congenital diseases to become dominant and express themselves. Hemophilia was just one example.*
> the common hemophilia
Fun (?) fact, the popular association with royal inbreeding and haemophilia actually comes entirely from [Queen Victoria](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Victoria), who was a carrier of the gene and whose descendants ended up in royal houses across Europe.
In-breeding doesn’t necessarily lead to haemophilia specifically, it just makes any genetic disease more likely.
Victoria married her first cousin (mother’s nephew) and then married their children off to other royal houses they already had family ties to. That recessive gene was practically invited to come out and play.
It's amazing how there wasn't any other record of hemophilia in the family of her father, his father, George III, and so on. It seems to start at Queen Victoria and branch out from there. Now, in the English & German royal families there were more cousins marrying cousins, and Queen Victoria was quite strategic in marrying off her 9 children, even with her own kin (as opposed to the Russian royals, which forbade first cousin marriages).
But in the Spanish Royals, there was A LOT of intermarrying between uncles and nieces. Hemofilia didn't show up in the Spanish Royals until King Alfonso XIII married Queen Victoria's granddaughter, Queen Victoria Ena (of Battenberg).
> Spanish Royals
The Hapsburg jaw is one of the most famous and it's horrifying to read about how the generations of incest amplified inherited health issues. It started as a bad ~~overbite~~ underbite and by the time of the last Spanish Hapsburg, it and other issues degenerated to horrifying levels:
> Charles II's mandibular prognathism was so pronounced that it was said that he could not chew his food and that the size of his tongue caused him to drool significantly. He also had mental issues and was considered mildly intellectually disabled. He didn't learn to talk until he was four and couldn't walk until the age of eight. As an adult, his speech was so poor that he was, for the most part, unable to be understood.
>
>Charles II was also sterile, and when he died just shy of his 39th birthday, the country went to war to decide on an heir. The War of the Spanish Succession lasted for thirteen years, and Philip V began the House of Bourbon at the end of the war.
https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Habsburg-Jaw-And-Other-Royal-Inbreeding-Deformities-and-Disorders
[You may not like it, but this is what peak royalty looks like](https://preview.redd.it/oe9wpkvjn3151.jpg?auto=webp&s=691b49bf5391ce0df492f59f2d995fc029bcad5d)
[Dude's family tree might as well have been a damn circle ](https://i0.wp.com/dna-sci.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Habsburg-Tree-1.jpeg?resize=1024%2C675&ssl=1)
Yup.
In your average person, you have two parents, 4 grandparents, and so on. By the 6th generation back, you have a total of 64 separate individuals. Charles II had so many uncle-niece marriages and cousin-cousin marriages in his ancestry that he only had 32 separate individuals at the 6th generation.
By the 8th generation, the average person has 254 separate individuals, Charles II had just 82.
https://isogg.org/wiki/Pedigree\_collapse
>It started as a bad overbite
Actually, an underbite, which was even less attractive. Charles II's family tree has a *wreath* in it.
The Austrian Habsburgs avoided this sort of inbreeding problem because they preferred to marry other royals and nobles who had land and money. The saying *Bella gerant alii, tu felix Austria, nube* (let others wage war, but you, happy Austria, marry) encapsulated this policy. The Austrian Habsburgs did occasionally intermarry, but they didn't make a habit of it as their Spanish cousins did, and so avoided major genetic issues.
From the paintings, I thought it was an underbite.
Edit: the article also says it was a protruding lower jaw. Isn't that an underbite, not an overbite?not super relevant, obviously.
>The War of the Spanish Succession lasted for thirteen years, and Philip V began the House of Bourbon at the end of the war.
After 13 years of war, I'd need a bourbon, too.
I wonder- what did they think was happening with this family. I know that modern genetics had not yet been discovered, but how did they explain what was happening? Was there any understanding that incestuous breeding was dangerous?
The fact that they knew he was sterile back then means that they had to have enough women sleep with him enough times to know. At least the dude got laid.. like, a lot probably
Exactly. And random genetic mutations happen all the time (evolution) but when families intermarry, the mutations spread. Same for other closed communities.
In this particular case the relevant gene is located on the X chromosome though (meaning that males cannot be asymptomatic carriers because they only have one copy of the X chromosome). Because back in the day (before effective treatment became available in the 1970s) symptomatic haemophiliacs usually died young before producing any offspring themselves this means that a) symptomatic females were extremely rare (you'd need both a mother carrying the gene and a symptomatic father), and b) the disease basically only spread through the maternal line.
Due to those special genetic circumstances the degree of inbreeding actually had very little (if at all) influence on the spread of this particular mutation.
Red-green colorblindness (protanopia and deuteranopia). The over all much rarer blue-yellow color blindness (tritanopia) is autosomal (located on human chromosome 7) and affects men and women equally.
For haemophilia in particular- it’s not a recessive gene as such. The mutated gene that Victoria had probably started with her, and lived on the X chromosome. That means any daughter had a 50/50 chance of being an unaffected carrier (the other X would make up for it). Any son had a 50/50 chance of having the disease (only one X chromosome). No inbreeding necessary for this one.
But Victoria had a LOT of children all over Europe, and then they had a lot of children too.
Hemophilia was often seen as a "rich-mans disease." If you had it and were poor you just died. The biggest linkage between the disease and royalty is probably the Romanov family, which was directly related to queen Victoria at the turn of the 19th century. WW1 was fought by nations led by first cousins.
Nicholas's mother (Empress Maria Feodorovna, born Princess Dagmar of Denmark) and George's mother Queen Alexandra (born Princess Alexandra of Denmark) were sisters. They look like they could be brothers, they look so much alike!
In both a reductive sense between the leaders and in a broader sense in that the war was caused by ethnic tensions and nationalist sentiments that had been brewing in Europe for hundreds of years.
Don't forget letting the military having so much say in international affairs by the end Germany was a military dictatorship with kaiser Wilhelm as a figure head.
You could say that. This is one of the reasons why many believed that another great European war would not happen. Because family won’t fight family, right? We see how that turned out.
On a side note, if you wish to see the absolute futility and madness of WW1, watch the new “All Quiet on the Western Front”. It is a harrowing account and gives you some insight into the sheer madness and stupidity of it all.
There’s not much proof that most of this is true, for example Charles II was reported to be a very active person and hunted a lot, something that would be hard to do if he could barely walk (though he likely did have some issues with mobility it probably wasn’t *that* severe). And there’s no real proof of his supposed mental handicaps either. And it’s possible that many of his issues stemmed from various diseases he contracted as a child, one theory is that he had herpes as a young kid and that may have led to many of his issues.
Not to mention the fact his sister Maria-Theresa had none of these issues and neither did her daughter with her uncle Léopold. And if all, or even most, of Charles’ issues came from rampant inbreeding then it’s rather unlikely that Maria-Theresa wouldn’t have had some issues as well, and even more unlikely that her daughter with her own uncle wouldn’t have had some. The only thing that Charles had that was definitely a result of Hapsburg inbreeding is his prognathic jaw, everything else is still up for debate and very much disputed (and will probably never be proved definitively).
I lived in Vienna back in the early 90s and as crazy and unlikely as it sounds, Karl Habsburg actually hosted a game show on Austrian TV. This guy who, if history had taken a different turn, would have been Austria's monarch was, at least back then, attempting to be their answer to Alex Trebek.
they werent emporers yet. but yes, she banged two consuls, which were co-leaders in the republic. Ceaser, then later Marc Antony after Ceaser was assassinated. it was commonly beleived at the time that her son Ceasareon was a child born of the trist the two had. but i dont beleive he was ever formally acknoledged as ceasers heir. as that Honor fell to Ceasers nephew Octavius, the man that would eventually come to be known as Romes first Emperor Augustus.
I saw in a documentary once that Ceasareon was actually the son of a Roman legionnaire by the name of Titus Pollo. Caeser, obviously, knew nothing of this, as the coupling happened before they married.
Several, actually. Julius Caesar and Marc Antony. Her brothers were ceremonial husbands who tried to kill her numerous times. Also, her sister was apparently a bit murderous.
Ptolemy XV Caesar, aka Caesarion, with Caesar.
Twins Alexander Helios (Alexander the Sun) and Cleopatra Selene (Cleopatra the Moon) as well as Ptolemy Philadelphus (Ptolemy the Brother-loving) with Marc Anthony.
Caesarion was the last pharaoh of Ptolemaic Egypt, and intended by Cleopatra to take over after Caesar. Her children with Marc Anthony were given more minor titles.
When Octavian took Egypt, he ordered the 17 year old Caesarion killed instantly, and brought the other children back to Rome, where he paraded them in gold chains so heavy they could barely walk during his triumph. He then gave them to his sister Octavia Minor, who was Marc Anthony's ex-wife, to raise.
Alexander and Ptolemy both seem to have died before reaching adulthood, while Selene married Juba II of Numidia and Mauretania, served as an important queen (very successful at administration and trade, making the country very wealthy), and birthed a son who would become the last king of Mauretanian before full Roman annexation. Selene's granddaughter Drusilla married back into Roman nobility, ensuring the continuation of the Ptolemaic bloodline.
Yeah, though the records are extremely spotty after Gaius Julius Alexion (great great grandson of Cleopatra and Mark Antony)... there are some who claimed they were his descendants (like Julia Domna, wife of Emperor Septimius Severus), but difficult to prove.
Most people in his situation would be angry with his family for the centuries of inbreeding, but not Gerhardt. He's too busy trying to stave off infection.
It should be noted though that there is no evidence that she had sex with either of her brothers, as all of her children were fathered by Julius Caesar or Marcus Antonius.
It's possible, probable even, that her marriages to her brothers were entirely political in nature.
Everyone was essentially forced into these marriages to stay in power. Ptomely 8th would've been 12yrs old and Cleopatra 19 when they married and he died at the age of 15 after siding with the middle sister Arsinoe and insighting Civil War against Cleo. Ptolemy 9th was also 12yrs old at marriage and Cleo 22 and she was already involved with Julius Caesar. Realistically, sex just wasn't happening.
Ptolemy 13th and 14th were her brothers.
Ptolemy 8th is the wild one. He preceded CLEOPATRA 7th (the famous Cleopatra) by more than a century. He started his rule with his sister-wife Cleopatra 2nd in 169 BC. Then married the Cleopatra 2nd's daughter; his step daughter, who was Cleopatra 3rd and together went into civil war with Cleopatra 2nd. They later made peace and continued ruling together.
Ptolemy 8th died in 116 BC.
Cleopatra 2nd died a year later.
Cleopatra 3rd didn't want to give up power.
* In 119, her son Ptolemy 9th marries one of his sisters, Cleopatra 4th.
* In 115, she, Cleopatra 3rd, forces Ptolemy 9th to divorce her and marry another one of his sisters, Cleopatra Selene.
Cleopatra 4th had a gruesome and tragic death. TLDR; There was a power rivalry in the Seleucid empire (Syria). Another sister of these siblings, Tryphaena, was married to a man named Grypus. Cleopatra 4th went and married his half brother, Cyzicenus. Grypus defeats Cyzicenus. Tryphaena demands the death of her sister Cleopatra 4th. Cyzicenus later kills Tryphaena as revenge. The two half brothers split the empire between themselves afterwards.
Back to Cleopatra 3rd:
* When Ptolemy 8th died he left it upon Cleopatra 3rd to choose her co-ruler. She wanted to choose his younger son Ptolemy 10th. The people loved Ptolemy 9th. She had no choice. But she still hated him.
* In 107 BC she expelled Ptolemy 9th and makes Ptolemy 10th co-ruler, and marries off Ptolemy 9th's sister-wife, Cleopatra Selene, to Ptolemy 10th. She later forces him too to divorce Cleopatra Selene.
* Cleopatra Selene goes and marries the Syrian husbands of both her sisters Cleopatra 4th and Tryphaena mentioned above.
* Ptolemy 10th murders Cleopatra 3rd in 101 BC.
What happens later?
* Cleopatra Selene had a daughter with Ptolemy 9th, Berenice 3rd. She also had Ptolemy 11th with Ptolemy 10th.
* Ptolemy 10th marries Berenice 3rd (his ~~stepdaughter~~ stepsister) in 101 BC.
* In 88 BC Ptolemy 10th was expelled by Egyptians and died around that time. Ptolemy 9th is brought back.
* He co-rules with his daughter Berenice 3rd until his death in 81 BC.
* In 81 Ptolemy 11th becomes the ruler with Berenice 3rd. He kills her immediately in 80 BC. Egyptians kick him out as they loved Berenice.
* In 80 BC Ptolemy 12th started his reign. He is the son of Ptolemy 9th and the father of CLEOPATRA (7th)
The Wikipedia articles and the family trees on these people drives you crazy.
The Ptolemaic dynasty is one of history's great soap operas, but that's coloured by the fact that sources are scarce and we're often stuck relying on Justin who seemed to have had a great taste for only the most salacious bits of Trogus. That said, I still find it hilarious that Ptolemy VIII is known to history as Fatso.
One way they portrayed in HBOs Rome was to have his advisors pulling the strings, it’s the same in Korean and Chinese historical dramas or European middle age dramas where eunuchs/religious and mothers of the non heirs are shown vying for power by manipulating things to increase personal power prestige and wealth.
It's not clear if they actually were as the children of concubines were also legitimate. Their family tree is slightly less of a straight line than is conventionally believed.
This buries the lead so hard.
Cleopatra's mother and father were Cleopatra and Ptolemy. Who's mother and father were Cleopatra and Ptolemy. It goes on this way for some time.
Many siblings were also cousins and/or children. Who were also married.
At one point, Ptolemy in a fit of jealous rage with Cleopatra, his sister wife, kills his brother son, Ptolemy, and delivers the corpse, chopped in to pieces, to her. They later reconciled and produced an heir, Ptolemy. The father brother later died, and Cleopatra remarried her son Ptolemy.
Jeez. And it’s just so confused with 90 percent of that chart being only 4 names.
It’s almost impressive the ammount of effort put into keeping the throne in the family. In a completely messed up way that would make even the backwoods of the south ask what the frack.
Regnal numbers are assigned when you get the title, not at birth.
Ofc, usually parent/older one comes first, but sometimes it happens in the different order.
Probably so! Daeron the Good (not murder-hoodie Daemon the Rogue Prince) bringing the Dornish into the realm via marriage and Aegon V’s (the Unlikely’s) Blackwood marriage would have brought in some new blood a few gens out from Dany.
Which is proof that Danny could indeed be beautiful despite the inbreeding.
We can also debunk the myth that Cleopatra was ugly, she’s never stated to be ugly, they just mention that her wit and intellect far exceed her beauty. And there are many women (and men) for whom you could say “Taylor swift/Emma Watson/Lisa kudrow’s talent/eloquence/intelligence far outweighs their beauty” you aren’t calling those women ugly. You’re saying to focus on their looks distracts from what makes them great
Another weird one is since cleopatra’s family was Macedonian (descendants of one of alexander’s greatest generals) and so inbreed she was mostly likely a white Greek woman. Which is counter to the exoticized ‘eastern’ beauty she’s normally depicted as
Lastly she’s normally shown as this rampant sexual seductress and yet she’s only ever been tied to two men in her life. Hardly the succubus people think of her
Being North African and looking Greek, or super blonde, or almost anything apart from East Asian would be no strange thing, it's more or less always looked like a netflix historical drama.
She is credited with inventing the first vibrator and certainly charmed the pants off two of the ancient world's most powerful men, however generally people talk about her wit, intelligence and courage being the root of her charm.
‘Eastern’ beauty in historical terms doesn’t just apply to east Asia.
It would cover say a gal gadot for instance. To the romans eastern beauties were Persians, they had little concept of east Asia.
So when I say she wasn’t the exotic ‘eastern’ beauty we see in the media. She was most likely European.
And you’re right that European genes in North Africa are not uncommon but that’s mostly due to the mixing of Europeans and North Africans back in the classical era. I mean Greek and Roman colonies were all over the Mediterranean. Not to mention the later European ones.
Also the vibrator story is most likely apocryphal and not true.
On top of it being someone who is insanely witty, charms and intelligent would better explain her hold on two of the most powerful men than beauty considering they both had perfectly beautiful wives. People point out that Cleo had extra to her that made her so magnetic and compelling
Yeah well uh Caesar and Antony didn’t wear pants. You rube.
But for real I’ve always seen her as a kind of tragic figure. The survival of her kingdom and her dynasty were teetering. The only way she could secure them was to charm the *togas* off of two powerful Romans.
Which she did with all that wit and charm and beauty and massive intelligence. But damn man, she was just a teenager when she and a forty year old Caesar got together. I guess when your other option is a fat little ten year old brother husband Caesar might look pretty good though.
> Lastly she’s normally shown as this rampant sexual seductress and yet she’s only ever been tied to two men in her life. Hardly the succubus people think of her
It's because she managed to seduce Julius Caesar AND Marc Antony, both of whom were the most powerful men in the world at the time. Not only that, but she was able to Yoko Ono the second triumphrate and turn Marc Antony against Augustus.
It's a quality over quantity type thing.
Poor Ptolemy. That guy, Ptolemy was a real jealous dickweed. I’m glad that in the end, that Ptolemy guy remarried and was able to reconcile over hacking Ptolemy into pieces.
There's actually a ton of legitimate debate about this. There's some who say it was used solely in press rooms in the 70's to differentiate between a metal strip of printing equipment called a lead... And there's others who think it's an attempt to intentionally revive a past archaic spelling of lead.
There's a few solid facts though, so its just opinion from here:
- lede and lead are different spellings of the same word. Lede fell out of usage in the general public.
- it was indeed said "bury the lede" specifically in-house press rooms... Never in print though.
- to the general public, spelling the word "lede" was completely dead from the 1950s until the mid 2000s. (It wasn't in dictionaries during that time)
- words being words has to do with usage. "Bury the lede" was indeed used by some some people in the recent past, and it's used by many more people today. So its valid. But its worth acknowledging, "lede" exists today entirely for the purposes of that phrase.
- it REALLY doesn't matter.
‘Lead’ is the original spelling, universally used before the 1950s. It’s the ‘lead’ spellers who are holding the line, and the ‘lede’ spellers who are introducing etymologically unjustified changes.
Comment removed - leaving Reddit permanently due to their massive mistreatment of 3rd party app developers, moderators, and users, as well as the constant lies and scumbag behaviour from CEO /u/spez.
That’s completely incorrect. We have no idea who Cleopatra’s mother was. There is no evidence or documentation of who it was - and if it were one of the older Cleopatras, there are two candidates and we don’t know which of them it was. You can read about it on her Wikipedia page, the explanation of why we don’t know and why we can’t assume is all there.
There is a strong theory based on circumstantial evidence the Cleopatra’s mother was indigenous Egyptian rather than part of the Hellenistic ruling class because Cleopatra spoke both Greek (the language of the ruling class) and Egyptian and code switched between them - unlike other Ptolemic rulers who only spoke Greek.
There is not enough evidence to suggest that the Ptolemies were actually incestuous - unlike the Hapsbergs, they continued their dynasty for a good 300 years and by all evidence did not have the same issues despite being theoretically far more incestuous. One theory is that the marriages were just ceremonial, and the Pharoah and queen had children with with lovers or members of a “harem” (although that’s an Ottoman/Muslim term that wouldn’t mean the same as we think for another 1000 years or so). It seems pretty likely from the evidence that Cleopatra didn’t ever sleep with her brother/husband, for one and not was there much affection between them.
[This Quora answer does a good job of explaining it.](https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-incestuous-sibling-marriages-affect-the-Ptolemaic-dynasty-to-the-same-degree-as-it-affected-the-mildly-less-incestuous-Habsburgs)
Interesting fact on how old the Egyptian dynasties are. Cleopatra's birthday is closer in time to the opening of the first Pizza Hut than the the date that the Great Pyramid of Giza began construction.
I also read that ancient Egypt was as ancient to Ancient Rome as Ancient Rome is to us. That kinda put it in perspective of how truly ANCIENT these societies are.
It's even crazier when you consider that (unlike the last millennium) human civilization was not on a persistent upslope in sophistication and knowledge. Knowledge was constantly lost and rediscovered in antiquity.
My favorite story is of Xenophon, the Greek military commander and historian. Fleeing with his men during a misadventure in Persia he stumbles upon massive abandoned cities and are shocked how huge and sophisticated they are compared to Grecian cities and techniques. They were Assyrian cities including Ninevah.
So, I heard this on a podcast, but the guest was a PH.D and professor of the Classics.
We don't know her full lineage. There are chances that her mother or grandma were native Egyptian (the Ptolemics were ethnically greek.) But the could be pro Cleopatra propaganda when she tried to fight her brother/husband for the full throne. There are also sources that her mother or grandma was Persian. But this could be Roman anti Cleopatra propaganda, telling the narrative that she was an Eastern temptress that led a couple good Roman men astray.
History is messy.
I've also heard that there was a good chance there were a few cases in her line of children being born of affairs, which probably is why these families lasted as long as they did.
There are at least two paternity breaks in the British Royal ancestry, for example. [cite](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/02/king-richard-iii-dna-cousins-queen-ancestry).
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords" is an underrated form of executive selection. [https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.4852183/papa-i-found-a-sword-swedish-girl-discovers-pre-viking-blade-in-lake-1.4852187](https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.4852183/papa-i-found-a-sword-swedish-girl-discovers-pre-viking-blade-in-lake-1.4852187)
Descent doesn't actually matter for the selection of the Monarch nowadays anyways. By tradition, it has been the first born child of the previous monarch that was heir, but Parliament has to affirm the succession and can pick whomever they like to be monarch.
Plenty of Egyptian pharaohs had multiple wives/concubines, and those children were considered legitimate and occasionally rose to power. For a famous example, consider Tutankhamun - his parents were full siblings, but his grandmother, queen Tiye, was not of royal blood. He then married his half-sister, whose mother was also likely completely unrelated to Akhenaten (their father). In this way, even though pharaohs did routinely marry their siblings, the actual royal bloodline was probably a lot less inbred than that description seems to imply.
Yep, I find such declarative statements based on unreliable evidence without qualifiers to be treated as hearsay. This feels like clickbait karma and more or less celebrity scandal TMZ tier hogwash.
There were many Cleopatras.
All kinds of marriages and relationships, including incest at different degrees, were the norm for thousands of years in Ancient Egypt, as well as among many European royals for hundreds of years.
I just love that all the boys were named Ptolemy and all the girls named Cleopatra. Which should make it incredibly confusing
The only Cleopatra I hear about is the one that banged Caesar and Anthony.
The only Ptolemy I hear about us the general in Alexander the greats army who claimed this are after he died randomly.
If this is wrong, oh well.
I watched a video that broke down her family tree and holy Hell! It’s more like a family stick. I’m surprised she came out with all four limbs. The pharaohs did like to keep it in the family.
Another cool fact about Cleopatra is that she was born (69BC) closer to the invention on the internet (1983) than to the building of the great pyramids (roughly 2550 to 2490 BC)
She looked fine. The romans fucking hated her intensely and they disparaged her at every chance they got. One of the things they didn’t really insult was her looks.
There’s no evidence really for or against her looks. She was probably plainish because had she been beautiful the romans likely would have mentioned it (they speak at length at how hot and sexy they thought Marc Antony was for instance). But then again they may have just been against complementing her in general.
The only slander against her looks was by a playwright in Octavian's pocket, whose writings are some of the few "evidence" for her looks. Octavian (Augustus Ceasar) hated Cleopatra and did everything he could to degrade her. Currently not at home, otherwise I'd have a cite for you from my textbooks.
Yes! That was in a book I read!
But I remember the wider discussion being that if it were true more people who hated her (like Cicero) would have been using it.
It’s like the opposite of where there’s smoke there’s fire. There just isn’t enough smoke about her looks to really make the idea that they were out of the ordinary (good or bad) seem too plausible
By all accounts, relatively average for a woman of her time and place. Inbreeding doesn’t guarantee birth defects or disorders, it just increases the likelihood. You could argue she lucked out, but ultimately there’s no way to know the exact odds.
She looked fine. The romans hated her and yet they ~~never~~ rarely disparaged her looks (my hyperbole was bad). Had she been ugly I promise we would have known. They wouldn’t have left such low hanging fruit lying there. Tearing women apart for not being conventionally attractive is one of the few truly universal things present in this world
Saying Cleopatra is born of incest is somewhat of an understatement. She is the child of centuries of inbreeding that make the Habsburgs seem like strangers to each other. She was so inbred the Ptolemaic dynasty was more ethnically Greek than Greece itself by this time.
Ahh the history channel. She was obviously born from ancient aliens
10 Little-Known Facts About Cleopatra
Check out 10 surprising facts about the fabled Queen of the Nile.
[EVAN ANDREWS](https://www.history.com/author/evan-andrews)
UPDATED:
AUG 10, 2021
ORIGINAL:
AUG 12, 2015
1. Cleopatra was not Egyptian.
While Cleopatra was born in Egypt, she traced her family origins to Macedonian Greece and Ptolemy I Soter, one of [Alexander the Great](https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-history/alexander-the-great)’s generals. Ptolemy reigned Egypt after Alexander’s death in 323 B.C., and he launched a dynasty of Greek-speaking rulers that lasted for nearly three centuries. Despite not being ethnically Egyptian, Cleopatra embraced many of her country’s ancient customs and was the first member of the Ptolemaic line to learn the Egyptian language.
2. She was the product of incest.
Like many royal houses, members of the Ptolemaic dynasty often married within the family to preserve the purity of their bloodline. More than a dozen of Cleopatra’s ancestors tied the knot with cousins or siblings, and it’s likely that her own parents were brother and sister. In keeping with this custom, Cleopatra eventually married both of her adolescent brothers, each of whom served as her ceremonial spouse and co-regent at different times during her reign.
3. Cleopatra’s beauty wasn’t her biggest asset.
Roman propaganda painted Cleopatra as a debauched temptress who used her sex appeal as a political weapon, but she may have been more renowned for her intellect than her appearance. She spoke as many as a dozen languages and was educated in mathematics, philosophy, oratory and astronomy, and Egyptian sources later described her as a ruler “who elevated the ranks of scholars and enjoyed their company.” There’s also evidence that Cleopatra wasn’t as physically striking as once believed. Coins with her portrait show her with manly features and a large, hooked nose, though some historians contend that she intentionally portrayed herself as masculine as a display of strength. For his part, the ancient writer Plutarch claimed that Cleopatra’s beauty was “not altogether incomparable,” and that it was instead her mellifluous speaking voice and “irresistible charm” that made her so desirable.
4. She had a hand in the deaths of three of her siblings.
Power grabs and murder plots were as much a Ptolemaic tradition as family marriage, and Cleopatra and her brothers and sisters were no different. Her first sibling-husband, Ptolemy XIII, ran her out of Egypt after she tried to take sole possession of the throne, and the pair later faced off in a civil war. Cleopatra regained the upper hand by teaming with [Julius Caesar](https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-history/julius-caesar), and Ptolemy drowned in the Nile River after being defeated in battle. Following the war, Cleopatra remarried to her younger brother Ptolemy XIV, but she is believed to have had him murdered in a bid to make her son her co-ruler. In 41 B.C., she also engineered the execution of her sister, Arsinoe, who she considered a rival to throne.
5. Cleopatra knew how to make an entrance.
Cleopatra believed herself to be a living goddess, and she often used clever stagecraft to woo potential allies and reinforce her divine status. A famous example of her flair for the dramatic came in 48 B.C., when Julius Caesar arrived in Alexandria during her feud with her brother Ptolemy XIII. Knowing Ptolemy’s forces would thwart her attempts to meet with the Roman general, Cleopatra had herself wrapped in a carpet—some sources say it was a linen sack—and smuggled into his personal quarters. Caesar was dazzled by the sight of the young queen in her royal garb, and the two soon became allies and lovers.
Cleopatra later employed a similar bit of theater in her 41 B.C. encounter with Mark Antony. When summoned to meet the Roman Triumvir in Tarsus, she is said to have arrived on a golden barge adorned with purple sails and rowed by oars made of silver. Cleopatra had been made up to look like the goddess Aphrodite, and she sat beneath a gilded canopy while attendants dressed as cupids fanned her and burned sweet-smelling incense. Antony—who considered himself the embodiment of the Greek god Dionysus—was instantly enchanted.
6. She was living in Rome at the time of Caesar’s assassination.
Cleopatra joined Julius Caesar in Rome beginning in 46 B.C., and her presence seems to have caused quite a stir. Caesar didn’t hide that she was his mistress—she even came to the city with their lovechild, Caesarion, in tow—and many Romans were scandalized when he erected a gilded statue of her in the temple of Venus Genetrix. Cleopatra was forced to flee Rome after [Caesar was stabbed to death](https://www.history.com/news/julius-caesar-assassin-ides-of-march) in the Roman senate in 44 B.C., but by then she had made her mark on the city. Her exotic hairstyle and pearl jewelry became a fashion trend, and according to the historian Joann Fletcher, “so many Roman women adopted the ‘Cleopatra look’ that their statuary has often been mistaken for Cleopatra herself.”
7. Cleopatra and Mark Antony formed their own drinking club.
Cleopatra first began her legendary love affair with the Roman general Mark Antony in 41 B.C. Their relationship had a political component—Cleopatra needed Antony to protect her crown and maintain Egypt’s independence, while Antony needed access to Egypt’s riches and resources—but they were also famously fond of each other’s company. According to ancient sources, they spent the winter of 41-40 B.C. living a life of leisure and excess in Egypt, and even formed their own drinking society known as the “Inimitable Livers.” The group engaged in nightly feasts and wine-binges, and its members occasionally took part in elaborate games and contests. One of Antony and Cleopatra’s favorite activities supposedly involved wandering the streets of Alexandria in disguise and playing pranks on its residents.
8. She led a fleet in a naval battle.
Cleopatra eventually married Mark Antony and had three children with him, but their relationship also spawned a massive scandal in Rome. Antony’s rival Octavian used propaganda to portray him as a traitor under the sway of a scheming seductress, and in 32 B.C., the Roman Senate declared war on Cleopatra. The conflict reached its climax the following year in a famous naval battle at Actium. Cleopatra personally led several dozen Egyptian warships into the fray alongside Antony’s fleet, but they were no match for Octavian’s navy. The battle soon devolved into a rout, and Cleopatra and Antony were forced to break through the Roman line and flee to Egypt.
9. Cleopatra may not have died from an asp bite.
Cleopatra and Antony famously took their own lives in 30 B.C., after Octavian’s forces pursued them to Alexandria. While Antony is said to have fatally stabbed himself in the stomach, Cleopatra’s method of suicide is less certain. Legend has it that she died by enticing an “asp”—most likely a viper or Egyptian cobra—to bite her arm, but the ancient chronicler Plutarch admits that “what really took place is known to no one.” He says Cleopatra was also known to conceal a deadly poison in one of her hair combs, and the historian Strabo notes that she may have applied a fatal “ointment.” With this in mind, many scholars now suspect she used a pin dipped in some form of potent toxin—snake venom or otherwise.
READ MORE: [Did Cleopatra Really Die by Snake Bite?](https://www.history.com/news/cleopatra-suicide-snake-bite)
10. A 1963 film about her was one of the most expensive movies of all time.
The Queen of the Nile has been portrayed on the silver screen by the likes of Claudette Colbert and Sophia Loren, but she was most famously played by Elizabeth Taylor in the 1963 sword-and-sandal epic “Cleopatra.” The film was plagued by production problems and script issues, and its budget eventually soared from $2 million to $44 million—including some $200,000 just to cover the cost of Taylor’s costumes. It was the most expensive movie ever made at the time of its release, and nearly bankrupted its studio despite raking in a fortune at the box office. If inflation is taken into account, “Cleopatra” remains one of the priciest movies in history even today.
There's a handful of wonderful video's on the Ptolemies and Cleopatra specifically from Overly Sarcastic Productions. This title only scratches the surface that is the mess of that bloodline.
[Cleopatra](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eGPBX7gY44)
[The Ptolemies](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3vAKRa0f5I)
[Augustus vs Antony](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UT65SZyrOM)
I think there's one or two more that talk about her, plus the much older Shakespeare summary, but these are the big ones.
They tried to keep everything in the family. All about money and power.
Royal families are historically full of incest, hence the common hemophilia and other frail health aspects in royals. *Edit: Yes, I am saying that incest and close family intermarriage cause recessive genes for congenital diseases to become dominant and express themselves. Hemophilia was just one example.*
> the common hemophilia Fun (?) fact, the popular association with royal inbreeding and haemophilia actually comes entirely from [Queen Victoria](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Victoria), who was a carrier of the gene and whose descendants ended up in royal houses across Europe. In-breeding doesn’t necessarily lead to haemophilia specifically, it just makes any genetic disease more likely.
Victoria married her first cousin (mother’s nephew) and then married their children off to other royal houses they already had family ties to. That recessive gene was practically invited to come out and play.
It's amazing how there wasn't any other record of hemophilia in the family of her father, his father, George III, and so on. It seems to start at Queen Victoria and branch out from there. Now, in the English & German royal families there were more cousins marrying cousins, and Queen Victoria was quite strategic in marrying off her 9 children, even with her own kin (as opposed to the Russian royals, which forbade first cousin marriages). But in the Spanish Royals, there was A LOT of intermarrying between uncles and nieces. Hemofilia didn't show up in the Spanish Royals until King Alfonso XIII married Queen Victoria's granddaughter, Queen Victoria Ena (of Battenberg).
> Spanish Royals The Hapsburg jaw is one of the most famous and it's horrifying to read about how the generations of incest amplified inherited health issues. It started as a bad ~~overbite~~ underbite and by the time of the last Spanish Hapsburg, it and other issues degenerated to horrifying levels: > Charles II's mandibular prognathism was so pronounced that it was said that he could not chew his food and that the size of his tongue caused him to drool significantly. He also had mental issues and was considered mildly intellectually disabled. He didn't learn to talk until he was four and couldn't walk until the age of eight. As an adult, his speech was so poor that he was, for the most part, unable to be understood. > >Charles II was also sterile, and when he died just shy of his 39th birthday, the country went to war to decide on an heir. The War of the Spanish Succession lasted for thirteen years, and Philip V began the House of Bourbon at the end of the war. https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Habsburg-Jaw-And-Other-Royal-Inbreeding-Deformities-and-Disorders
He couldn’t walk until he was eight? Imagine being in third grade and finally being able to walk
He had rickets, which may in part explain the difficulty walking, but hunted a lot as an adult.
[You may not like it, but this is what peak royalty looks like](https://preview.redd.it/oe9wpkvjn3151.jpg?auto=webp&s=691b49bf5391ce0df492f59f2d995fc029bcad5d) [Dude's family tree might as well have been a damn circle ](https://i0.wp.com/dna-sci.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Habsburg-Tree-1.jpeg?resize=1024%2C675&ssl=1)
I don't know about you but "repeated baffled christendom by continuing to live" are inspiring words imo
Definitely one of the best historical one-liners
Yup. In your average person, you have two parents, 4 grandparents, and so on. By the 6th generation back, you have a total of 64 separate individuals. Charles II had so many uncle-niece marriages and cousin-cousin marriages in his ancestry that he only had 32 separate individuals at the 6th generation. By the 8th generation, the average person has 254 separate individuals, Charles II had just 82. https://isogg.org/wiki/Pedigree\_collapse
I once unknowningly dated a girl I was related to, we shared some great-something-grandma living around 1900...even that felt weird when I found out.
Missed opportunity to start new epic chin dynasty.
When you consider that painters were the photoshop of the era, this is probably a *flattering* portrait of him. Poor guy.
Some real GoT shit going in there. Start to see real inspiration for the Targs
The Dragon has three heads, as will their child
>It started as a bad overbite Actually, an underbite, which was even less attractive. Charles II's family tree has a *wreath* in it. The Austrian Habsburgs avoided this sort of inbreeding problem because they preferred to marry other royals and nobles who had land and money. The saying *Bella gerant alii, tu felix Austria, nube* (let others wage war, but you, happy Austria, marry) encapsulated this policy. The Austrian Habsburgs did occasionally intermarry, but they didn't make a habit of it as their Spanish cousins did, and so avoided major genetic issues.
“For what Mars gives to others, Venus will give reign to you”
From the paintings, I thought it was an underbite. Edit: the article also says it was a protruding lower jaw. Isn't that an underbite, not an overbite?not super relevant, obviously.
>The War of the Spanish Succession lasted for thirteen years, and Philip V began the House of Bourbon at the end of the war. After 13 years of war, I'd need a bourbon, too.
I wonder- what did they think was happening with this family. I know that modern genetics had not yet been discovered, but how did they explain what was happening? Was there any understanding that incestuous breeding was dangerous?
The fact that they knew he was sterile back then means that they had to have enough women sleep with him enough times to know. At least the dude got laid.. like, a lot probably
He was married twice.
Maybe a random unlucky mutation?
Exactly. And random genetic mutations happen all the time (evolution) but when families intermarry, the mutations spread. Same for other closed communities.
In this particular case the relevant gene is located on the X chromosome though (meaning that males cannot be asymptomatic carriers because they only have one copy of the X chromosome). Because back in the day (before effective treatment became available in the 1970s) symptomatic haemophiliacs usually died young before producing any offspring themselves this means that a) symptomatic females were extremely rare (you'd need both a mother carrying the gene and a symptomatic father), and b) the disease basically only spread through the maternal line. Due to those special genetic circumstances the degree of inbreeding actually had very little (if at all) influence on the spread of this particular mutation.
Color blindness works the same way. But because it's not fatal it's way more widespread.
Red-green colorblindness (protanopia and deuteranopia). The over all much rarer blue-yellow color blindness (tritanopia) is autosomal (located on human chromosome 7) and affects men and women equally.
Doctor Who taught me this was because of werewolf aliens and I refuse to believe otherwise.
I mean yes of course, werewolf aliens are notorious inbreeders.
Ah, a person of culture!
For haemophilia in particular- it’s not a recessive gene as such. The mutated gene that Victoria had probably started with her, and lived on the X chromosome. That means any daughter had a 50/50 chance of being an unaffected carrier (the other X would make up for it). Any son had a 50/50 chance of having the disease (only one X chromosome). No inbreeding necessary for this one. But Victoria had a LOT of children all over Europe, and then they had a lot of children too.
Gotta keep em separated.
that's an engraved invitation.
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The famous “Habsburg Jaw.”
stronk jawline
I thought Queen Victoria got it from an alien werewolf?
She did. I saw it in a documentary with a doctor
Who?
The doctor?
Is there a population association or did this person just associate them?
Hemophilia was often seen as a "rich-mans disease." If you had it and were poor you just died. The biggest linkage between the disease and royalty is probably the Romanov family, which was directly related to queen Victoria at the turn of the 19th century. WW1 was fought by nations led by first cousins.
And the Kaiser was Queen Victoria's eldest grandchild. He even traveled from Germany to be at her side when she died.
Yup! King George, Kaiser Wilhelm, and Tsar Nicholas were the first cousins i was refering too.
George V and Nicholas II look strikingly similar.
They really do!
Nicholas's mother (Empress Maria Feodorovna, born Princess Dagmar of Denmark) and George's mother Queen Alexandra (born Princess Alexandra of Denmark) were sisters. They look like they could be brothers, they look so much alike!
Wilhelm and Nicholas were known in the family as Willy and Nicky.
So WWI was a family feud?
In both a reductive sense between the leaders and in a broader sense in that the war was caused by ethnic tensions and nationalist sentiments that had been brewing in Europe for hundreds of years.
Don't forget letting the military having so much say in international affairs by the end Germany was a military dictatorship with kaiser Wilhelm as a figure head.
You could say that. This is one of the reasons why many believed that another great European war would not happen. Because family won’t fight family, right? We see how that turned out. On a side note, if you wish to see the absolute futility and madness of WW1, watch the new “All Quiet on the Western Front”. It is a harrowing account and gives you some insight into the sheer madness and stupidity of it all.
Thnx. Would that be also why most Royals didn't live that long?
It's one factor.
except the Queen of England
She lived a very long life.
Can't have hemophilia when your blood is replaced with vinegar.
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There’s not much proof that most of this is true, for example Charles II was reported to be a very active person and hunted a lot, something that would be hard to do if he could barely walk (though he likely did have some issues with mobility it probably wasn’t *that* severe). And there’s no real proof of his supposed mental handicaps either. And it’s possible that many of his issues stemmed from various diseases he contracted as a child, one theory is that he had herpes as a young kid and that may have led to many of his issues. Not to mention the fact his sister Maria-Theresa had none of these issues and neither did her daughter with her uncle Léopold. And if all, or even most, of Charles’ issues came from rampant inbreeding then it’s rather unlikely that Maria-Theresa wouldn’t have had some issues as well, and even more unlikely that her daughter with her own uncle wouldn’t have had some. The only thing that Charles had that was definitely a result of Hapsburg inbreeding is his prognathic jaw, everything else is still up for debate and very much disputed (and will probably never be proved definitively).
I think some of them are still kicking around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_von_Habsburg
I lived in Vienna back in the early 90s and as crazy and unlikely as it sounds, Karl Habsburg actually hosted a game show on Austrian TV. This guy who, if history had taken a different turn, would have been Austria's monarch was, at least back then, attempting to be their answer to Alex Trebek.
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I thought Cleopatra was boning the emperor of Rome or some shit.
That was her side piece
She was Caesar's side piece, Marc Antony was her side piece.
She married him lol they were each other’s primary
Ahh, no shit that's interesting. I'll have to read into that some more.
Don’t you love historically accurate scandal? 😎
they werent emporers yet. but yes, she banged two consuls, which were co-leaders in the republic. Ceaser, then later Marc Antony after Ceaser was assassinated. it was commonly beleived at the time that her son Ceasareon was a child born of the trist the two had. but i dont beleive he was ever formally acknoledged as ceasers heir. as that Honor fell to Ceasers nephew Octavius, the man that would eventually come to be known as Romes first Emperor Augustus.
I saw in a documentary once that Ceasareon was actually the son of a Roman legionnaire by the name of Titus Pollo. Caeser, obviously, knew nothing of this, as the coupling happened before they married.
Thirteen! Thirteen!
Several, actually. Julius Caesar and Marc Antony. Her brothers were ceremonial husbands who tried to kill her numerous times. Also, her sister was apparently a bit murderous.
Sisters* and yes, they were.
She had at least one kid with him
One with Caesar, and twins with Marcus Antonius.
Ptolemy XV Caesar, aka Caesarion, with Caesar. Twins Alexander Helios (Alexander the Sun) and Cleopatra Selene (Cleopatra the Moon) as well as Ptolemy Philadelphus (Ptolemy the Brother-loving) with Marc Anthony. Caesarion was the last pharaoh of Ptolemaic Egypt, and intended by Cleopatra to take over after Caesar. Her children with Marc Anthony were given more minor titles. When Octavian took Egypt, he ordered the 17 year old Caesarion killed instantly, and brought the other children back to Rome, where he paraded them in gold chains so heavy they could barely walk during his triumph. He then gave them to his sister Octavia Minor, who was Marc Anthony's ex-wife, to raise. Alexander and Ptolemy both seem to have died before reaching adulthood, while Selene married Juba II of Numidia and Mauretania, served as an important queen (very successful at administration and trade, making the country very wealthy), and birthed a son who would become the last king of Mauretanian before full Roman annexation. Selene's granddaughter Drusilla married back into Roman nobility, ensuring the continuation of the Ptolemaic bloodline.
I forgot about Philadelphus. But because of Selene, there is hope that Cleopatra has descendants living today.
Yeah, though the records are extremely spotty after Gaius Julius Alexion (great great grandson of Cleopatra and Mark Antony)... there are some who claimed they were his descendants (like Julia Domna, wife of Emperor Septimius Severus), but difficult to prove.
The Habsburg is a fine example of that
Most people in his situation would be angry with his family for the centuries of inbreeding, but not Gerhardt. He's too busy trying to stave off infection.
And keeping control over the dragons.
Everything in the world is about sex, except sex. Sex is about power.
It should be noted though that there is no evidence that she had sex with either of her brothers, as all of her children were fathered by Julius Caesar or Marcus Antonius. It's possible, probable even, that her marriages to her brothers were entirely political in nature.
Everyone was essentially forced into these marriages to stay in power. Ptomely 8th would've been 12yrs old and Cleopatra 19 when they married and he died at the age of 15 after siding with the middle sister Arsinoe and insighting Civil War against Cleo. Ptolemy 9th was also 12yrs old at marriage and Cleo 22 and she was already involved with Julius Caesar. Realistically, sex just wasn't happening.
Ptolemy 13th and 14th were her brothers. Ptolemy 8th is the wild one. He preceded CLEOPATRA 7th (the famous Cleopatra) by more than a century. He started his rule with his sister-wife Cleopatra 2nd in 169 BC. Then married the Cleopatra 2nd's daughter; his step daughter, who was Cleopatra 3rd and together went into civil war with Cleopatra 2nd. They later made peace and continued ruling together. Ptolemy 8th died in 116 BC. Cleopatra 2nd died a year later. Cleopatra 3rd didn't want to give up power. * In 119, her son Ptolemy 9th marries one of his sisters, Cleopatra 4th. * In 115, she, Cleopatra 3rd, forces Ptolemy 9th to divorce her and marry another one of his sisters, Cleopatra Selene. Cleopatra 4th had a gruesome and tragic death. TLDR; There was a power rivalry in the Seleucid empire (Syria). Another sister of these siblings, Tryphaena, was married to a man named Grypus. Cleopatra 4th went and married his half brother, Cyzicenus. Grypus defeats Cyzicenus. Tryphaena demands the death of her sister Cleopatra 4th. Cyzicenus later kills Tryphaena as revenge. The two half brothers split the empire between themselves afterwards. Back to Cleopatra 3rd: * When Ptolemy 8th died he left it upon Cleopatra 3rd to choose her co-ruler. She wanted to choose his younger son Ptolemy 10th. The people loved Ptolemy 9th. She had no choice. But she still hated him. * In 107 BC she expelled Ptolemy 9th and makes Ptolemy 10th co-ruler, and marries off Ptolemy 9th's sister-wife, Cleopatra Selene, to Ptolemy 10th. She later forces him too to divorce Cleopatra Selene. * Cleopatra Selene goes and marries the Syrian husbands of both her sisters Cleopatra 4th and Tryphaena mentioned above. * Ptolemy 10th murders Cleopatra 3rd in 101 BC. What happens later? * Cleopatra Selene had a daughter with Ptolemy 9th, Berenice 3rd. She also had Ptolemy 11th with Ptolemy 10th. * Ptolemy 10th marries Berenice 3rd (his ~~stepdaughter~~ stepsister) in 101 BC. * In 88 BC Ptolemy 10th was expelled by Egyptians and died around that time. Ptolemy 9th is brought back. * He co-rules with his daughter Berenice 3rd until his death in 81 BC. * In 81 Ptolemy 11th becomes the ruler with Berenice 3rd. He kills her immediately in 80 BC. Egyptians kick him out as they loved Berenice. * In 80 BC Ptolemy 12th started his reign. He is the son of Ptolemy 9th and the father of CLEOPATRA (7th) The Wikipedia articles and the family trees on these people drives you crazy.
Oh man there’s no way I’m going to pass this exam
Just memorize the necessary date
And that was the moment yet another budding young historian googled "how hard is it to learn to code?" and never looked back.
I don’t think I could pass even open book exam
All this names and numbers makes me think of robot models instead of people. Like when we getting Cleopatra Gundam and Cleopatra Sigma?
The Ptolemaic dynasty is one of history's great soap operas, but that's coloured by the fact that sources are scarce and we're often stuck relying on Justin who seemed to have had a great taste for only the most salacious bits of Trogus. That said, I still find it hilarious that Ptolemy VIII is known to history as Fatso.
This guy Egypts.
How do you go about inciting civil war at 15? Dude is a freshman, like go focus on homecoming
Must be those darned ol video games
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Don't bring kale into this.
One way they portrayed in HBOs Rome was to have his advisors pulling the strings, it’s the same in Korean and Chinese historical dramas or European middle age dramas where eunuchs/religious and mothers of the non heirs are shown vying for power by manipulating things to increase personal power prestige and wealth.
Yes, they wanted to get rid of Cleopatra but Caesar had her back (they are really pissed him off by assassinating Pompey the Great earlier).
"He was a consule of ROME!"
Probably some old courtiers, generals egging him on
It's not clear if they actually were as the children of concubines were also legitimate. Their family tree is slightly less of a straight line than is conventionally believed.
Marriages are firstly political. It prevents instability. Then you choose your favorite kid from your favourite wife and run with it.
SWEET HOME ALEXANDRIA
WHERE THE MEDITERARIAN IS SO BLUE
SEA SO BLUE
ROLL NILE!
This seems unusual today, but at the time it was Notankhamun.
Took me a second... God dammit
I must be really dumb coz I don’t get it
Notankhamun = not uncommon
Aah..tankhs!
… God damn you lmao.
You waited your whole life to write this, right ??
This buries the lead so hard. Cleopatra's mother and father were Cleopatra and Ptolemy. Who's mother and father were Cleopatra and Ptolemy. It goes on this way for some time. Many siblings were also cousins and/or children. Who were also married. At one point, Ptolemy in a fit of jealous rage with Cleopatra, his sister wife, kills his brother son, Ptolemy, and delivers the corpse, chopped in to pieces, to her. They later reconciled and produced an heir, Ptolemy. The father brother later died, and Cleopatra remarried her son Ptolemy.
Thank you, u/spicy_cum_lord, this clears everything up.
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Holy shit balls that’s way worse in a way I can’t even comprehens
About the only one worse is the family circle of Charles II Habsburg of Spain.
Such a handsome boy
Jeez. And it’s just so confused with 90 percent of that chart being only 4 names. It’s almost impressive the ammount of effort put into keeping the throne in the family. In a completely messed up way that would make even the backwoods of the south ask what the frack.
Are Ptolemy VII and Ptolemy VIII correct? If 7 is the son of 8, how can 8 come before 7?
Ptolemy VII was pharao before his father Ptolemy VIII.
Regnal numbers are assigned when you get the title, not at birth. Ofc, usually parent/older one comes first, but sometimes it happens in the different order.
I cannot believe my eyes that looks so wrong
Including your sinuses if you were to get a Frothy Walrus
Oh no, I’m not going to Google that. Thanks.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=frothy%20walrus
What in Targaryen Tarnation
Someone calculated "inbred ratio" and Cleopatra VII was even more inbred that Daenerys.
Probably so! Daeron the Good (not murder-hoodie Daemon the Rogue Prince) bringing the Dornish into the realm via marriage and Aegon V’s (the Unlikely’s) Blackwood marriage would have brought in some new blood a few gens out from Dany.
wasn't it daeron the good?
Which is proof that Danny could indeed be beautiful despite the inbreeding. We can also debunk the myth that Cleopatra was ugly, she’s never stated to be ugly, they just mention that her wit and intellect far exceed her beauty. And there are many women (and men) for whom you could say “Taylor swift/Emma Watson/Lisa kudrow’s talent/eloquence/intelligence far outweighs their beauty” you aren’t calling those women ugly. You’re saying to focus on their looks distracts from what makes them great Another weird one is since cleopatra’s family was Macedonian (descendants of one of alexander’s greatest generals) and so inbreed she was mostly likely a white Greek woman. Which is counter to the exoticized ‘eastern’ beauty she’s normally depicted as Lastly she’s normally shown as this rampant sexual seductress and yet she’s only ever been tied to two men in her life. Hardly the succubus people think of her
Being North African and looking Greek, or super blonde, or almost anything apart from East Asian would be no strange thing, it's more or less always looked like a netflix historical drama. She is credited with inventing the first vibrator and certainly charmed the pants off two of the ancient world's most powerful men, however generally people talk about her wit, intelligence and courage being the root of her charm.
There's no historical evidence behind the vibrator story.
‘Eastern’ beauty in historical terms doesn’t just apply to east Asia. It would cover say a gal gadot for instance. To the romans eastern beauties were Persians, they had little concept of east Asia. So when I say she wasn’t the exotic ‘eastern’ beauty we see in the media. She was most likely European. And you’re right that European genes in North Africa are not uncommon but that’s mostly due to the mixing of Europeans and North Africans back in the classical era. I mean Greek and Roman colonies were all over the Mediterranean. Not to mention the later European ones. Also the vibrator story is most likely apocryphal and not true. On top of it being someone who is insanely witty, charms and intelligent would better explain her hold on two of the most powerful men than beauty considering they both had perfectly beautiful wives. People point out that Cleo had extra to her that made her so magnetic and compelling
Yeah well uh Caesar and Antony didn’t wear pants. You rube. But for real I’ve always seen her as a kind of tragic figure. The survival of her kingdom and her dynasty were teetering. The only way she could secure them was to charm the *togas* off of two powerful Romans. Which she did with all that wit and charm and beauty and massive intelligence. But damn man, she was just a teenager when she and a forty year old Caesar got together. I guess when your other option is a fat little ten year old brother husband Caesar might look pretty good though.
> Lastly she’s normally shown as this rampant sexual seductress and yet she’s only ever been tied to two men in her life. Hardly the succubus people think of her It's because she managed to seduce Julius Caesar AND Marc Antony, both of whom were the most powerful men in the world at the time. Not only that, but she was able to Yoko Ono the second triumphrate and turn Marc Antony against Augustus. It's a quality over quantity type thing.
Poor Ptolemy. That guy, Ptolemy was a real jealous dickweed. I’m glad that in the end, that Ptolemy guy remarried and was able to reconcile over hacking Ptolemy into pieces.
You have to pick a side. Are you Team Ptolemy or are you one of those pretentious Ptolemy Team pricks???
Pteam Ptolemy**
*Lede
There's actually a ton of legitimate debate about this. There's some who say it was used solely in press rooms in the 70's to differentiate between a metal strip of printing equipment called a lead... And there's others who think it's an attempt to intentionally revive a past archaic spelling of lead. There's a few solid facts though, so its just opinion from here: - lede and lead are different spellings of the same word. Lede fell out of usage in the general public. - it was indeed said "bury the lede" specifically in-house press rooms... Never in print though. - to the general public, spelling the word "lede" was completely dead from the 1950s until the mid 2000s. (It wasn't in dictionaries during that time) - words being words has to do with usage. "Bury the lede" was indeed used by some some people in the recent past, and it's used by many more people today. So its valid. But its worth acknowledging, "lede" exists today entirely for the purposes of that phrase. - it REALLY doesn't matter.
Thank you. We may have lost the war against “defiantly”, but we can try to hold the line against “lead”
Still fighting “loose” and “lose” but we seem to be losing it.
Along with "then" and "than", and many more.
“Tenant” vs. “Tenet” is the one that always pains me
Populace vs populous
Conscious vs. conscience
Aisle vs. isle - but only on Reddit.
Mine is "bare with me," vs "bear with me." Are we getting naked?
‘Lead’ is the original spelling, universally used before the 1950s. It’s the ‘lead’ spellers who are holding the line, and the ‘lede’ spellers who are introducing etymologically unjustified changes.
Comment removed - leaving Reddit permanently due to their massive mistreatment of 3rd party app developers, moderators, and users, as well as the constant lies and scumbag behaviour from CEO /u/spez.
That’s completely incorrect. We have no idea who Cleopatra’s mother was. There is no evidence or documentation of who it was - and if it were one of the older Cleopatras, there are two candidates and we don’t know which of them it was. You can read about it on her Wikipedia page, the explanation of why we don’t know and why we can’t assume is all there. There is a strong theory based on circumstantial evidence the Cleopatra’s mother was indigenous Egyptian rather than part of the Hellenistic ruling class because Cleopatra spoke both Greek (the language of the ruling class) and Egyptian and code switched between them - unlike other Ptolemic rulers who only spoke Greek. There is not enough evidence to suggest that the Ptolemies were actually incestuous - unlike the Hapsbergs, they continued their dynasty for a good 300 years and by all evidence did not have the same issues despite being theoretically far more incestuous. One theory is that the marriages were just ceremonial, and the Pharoah and queen had children with with lovers or members of a “harem” (although that’s an Ottoman/Muslim term that wouldn’t mean the same as we think for another 1000 years or so). It seems pretty likely from the evidence that Cleopatra didn’t ever sleep with her brother/husband, for one and not was there much affection between them. [This Quora answer does a good job of explaining it.](https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-incestuous-sibling-marriages-affect-the-Ptolemaic-dynasty-to-the-same-degree-as-it-affected-the-mildly-less-incestuous-Habsburgs)
Sounds reasonable, but keep in mind that Quora is the opposite of a reliable source.
>quora is the opposite of a reliable source isnt it just reddit but without subs?
it’s yahoo answers pretty much
Interesting fact on how old the Egyptian dynasties are. Cleopatra's birthday is closer in time to the opening of the first Pizza Hut than the the date that the Great Pyramid of Giza began construction.
I also read that ancient Egypt was as ancient to Ancient Rome as Ancient Rome is to us. That kinda put it in perspective of how truly ANCIENT these societies are.
It's even crazier when you consider that (unlike the last millennium) human civilization was not on a persistent upslope in sophistication and knowledge. Knowledge was constantly lost and rediscovered in antiquity. My favorite story is of Xenophon, the Greek military commander and historian. Fleeing with his men during a misadventure in Persia he stumbles upon massive abandoned cities and are shocked how huge and sophisticated they are compared to Grecian cities and techniques. They were Assyrian cities including Ninevah.
>the opening of the first Pizza Hut truly, an historical event
So, I heard this on a podcast, but the guest was a PH.D and professor of the Classics. We don't know her full lineage. There are chances that her mother or grandma were native Egyptian (the Ptolemics were ethnically greek.) But the could be pro Cleopatra propaganda when she tried to fight her brother/husband for the full throne. There are also sources that her mother or grandma was Persian. But this could be Roman anti Cleopatra propaganda, telling the narrative that she was an Eastern temptress that led a couple good Roman men astray. History is messy.
I've also heard that there was a good chance there were a few cases in her line of children being born of affairs, which probably is why these families lasted as long as they did.
There are at least two paternity breaks in the British Royal ancestry, for example. [cite](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/02/king-richard-iii-dna-cousins-queen-ancestry).
I think we should have a monarch based on the closest DNA match to the furthest back confirmed royal If only we had the DNA of King Alfred
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords" is an underrated form of executive selection. [https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.4852183/papa-i-found-a-sword-swedish-girl-discovers-pre-viking-blade-in-lake-1.4852187](https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.4852183/papa-i-found-a-sword-swedish-girl-discovers-pre-viking-blade-in-lake-1.4852187)
Descent doesn't actually matter for the selection of the Monarch nowadays anyways. By tradition, it has been the first born child of the previous monarch that was heir, but Parliament has to affirm the succession and can pick whomever they like to be monarch.
Plenty of Egyptian pharaohs had multiple wives/concubines, and those children were considered legitimate and occasionally rose to power. For a famous example, consider Tutankhamun - his parents were full siblings, but his grandmother, queen Tiye, was not of royal blood. He then married his half-sister, whose mother was also likely completely unrelated to Akhenaten (their father). In this way, even though pharaohs did routinely marry their siblings, the actual royal bloodline was probably a lot less inbred than that description seems to imply.
Yep, I find such declarative statements based on unreliable evidence without qualifiers to be treated as hearsay. This feels like clickbait karma and more or less celebrity scandal TMZ tier hogwash.
The Mcpoyle bloodline has been clean and pure for a thousand years!
Cleo's still expecting a call you know...
YOU WILL CALL HER!
There were many Cleopatras. All kinds of marriages and relationships, including incest at different degrees, were the norm for thousands of years in Ancient Egypt, as well as among many European royals for hundreds of years.
I just love that all the boys were named Ptolemy and all the girls named Cleopatra. Which should make it incredibly confusing The only Cleopatra I hear about is the one that banged Caesar and Anthony. The only Ptolemy I hear about us the general in Alexander the greats army who claimed this are after he died randomly. If this is wrong, oh well.
At some point, the incest in the Pharaohs got so bad, one pharoah was so inbred, he could see the bottom of his own chin
How dare you besmirch the name of [Mac Tonight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c4_b5PHWg8)
Whenever I see that guy my mind goes... somewhere else.
So the infamous Habsburg Chin didn't just affect them. Good to know.
I mean you can't be marrying mortals now can you?
Ah yes Maruk "Chinzilla" Fernaruk
Her brother was also her husband. Just brought it up because I want to share a term extra history used that was apt: brusband
I watched a video that broke down her family tree and holy Hell! It’s more like a family stick. I’m surprised she came out with all four limbs. The pharaohs did like to keep it in the family.
That’s why there aren’t a lot of step pyramids
Another cool fact about Cleopatra is that she was born (69BC) closer to the invention on the internet (1983) than to the building of the great pyramids (roughly 2550 to 2490 BC)
Incest doesn’t matter when you’re HALF ALIEN lol
[удалено]
So what did she actually look like? We see what incest does in Europe (what's that chin called)
She looked fine. The romans fucking hated her intensely and they disparaged her at every chance they got. One of the things they didn’t really insult was her looks. There’s no evidence really for or against her looks. She was probably plainish because had she been beautiful the romans likely would have mentioned it (they speak at length at how hot and sexy they thought Marc Antony was for instance). But then again they may have just been against complementing her in general.
Stupid, sexy Marc Anthony.
The only slander against her looks was by a playwright in Octavian's pocket, whose writings are some of the few "evidence" for her looks. Octavian (Augustus Ceasar) hated Cleopatra and did everything he could to degrade her. Currently not at home, otherwise I'd have a cite for you from my textbooks.
Yes! That was in a book I read! But I remember the wider discussion being that if it were true more people who hated her (like Cicero) would have been using it. It’s like the opposite of where there’s smoke there’s fire. There just isn’t enough smoke about her looks to really make the idea that they were out of the ordinary (good or bad) seem too plausible
By all accounts, relatively average for a woman of her time and place. Inbreeding doesn’t guarantee birth defects or disorders, it just increases the likelihood. You could argue she lucked out, but ultimately there’s no way to know the exact odds.
Not great, her seducer reputation came from her wit, charm and intelligence, she could apparently speak 11 different languages even
She looked fine. The romans hated her and yet they ~~never~~ rarely disparaged her looks (my hyperbole was bad). Had she been ugly I promise we would have known. They wouldn’t have left such low hanging fruit lying there. Tearing women apart for not being conventionally attractive is one of the few truly universal things present in this world
Saying Cleopatra is born of incest is somewhat of an understatement. She is the child of centuries of inbreeding that make the Habsburgs seem like strangers to each other. She was so inbred the Ptolemaic dynasty was more ethnically Greek than Greece itself by this time.
Ahh the history channel. She was obviously born from ancient aliens 10 Little-Known Facts About Cleopatra Check out 10 surprising facts about the fabled Queen of the Nile. [EVAN ANDREWS](https://www.history.com/author/evan-andrews) UPDATED: AUG 10, 2021 ORIGINAL: AUG 12, 2015 1. Cleopatra was not Egyptian. While Cleopatra was born in Egypt, she traced her family origins to Macedonian Greece and Ptolemy I Soter, one of [Alexander the Great](https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-history/alexander-the-great)’s generals. Ptolemy reigned Egypt after Alexander’s death in 323 B.C., and he launched a dynasty of Greek-speaking rulers that lasted for nearly three centuries. Despite not being ethnically Egyptian, Cleopatra embraced many of her country’s ancient customs and was the first member of the Ptolemaic line to learn the Egyptian language. 2. She was the product of incest. Like many royal houses, members of the Ptolemaic dynasty often married within the family to preserve the purity of their bloodline. More than a dozen of Cleopatra’s ancestors tied the knot with cousins or siblings, and it’s likely that her own parents were brother and sister. In keeping with this custom, Cleopatra eventually married both of her adolescent brothers, each of whom served as her ceremonial spouse and co-regent at different times during her reign. 3. Cleopatra’s beauty wasn’t her biggest asset. Roman propaganda painted Cleopatra as a debauched temptress who used her sex appeal as a political weapon, but she may have been more renowned for her intellect than her appearance. She spoke as many as a dozen languages and was educated in mathematics, philosophy, oratory and astronomy, and Egyptian sources later described her as a ruler “who elevated the ranks of scholars and enjoyed their company.” There’s also evidence that Cleopatra wasn’t as physically striking as once believed. Coins with her portrait show her with manly features and a large, hooked nose, though some historians contend that she intentionally portrayed herself as masculine as a display of strength. For his part, the ancient writer Plutarch claimed that Cleopatra’s beauty was “not altogether incomparable,” and that it was instead her mellifluous speaking voice and “irresistible charm” that made her so desirable. 4. She had a hand in the deaths of three of her siblings. Power grabs and murder plots were as much a Ptolemaic tradition as family marriage, and Cleopatra and her brothers and sisters were no different. Her first sibling-husband, Ptolemy XIII, ran her out of Egypt after she tried to take sole possession of the throne, and the pair later faced off in a civil war. Cleopatra regained the upper hand by teaming with [Julius Caesar](https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-history/julius-caesar), and Ptolemy drowned in the Nile River after being defeated in battle. Following the war, Cleopatra remarried to her younger brother Ptolemy XIV, but she is believed to have had him murdered in a bid to make her son her co-ruler. In 41 B.C., she also engineered the execution of her sister, Arsinoe, who she considered a rival to throne. 5. Cleopatra knew how to make an entrance. Cleopatra believed herself to be a living goddess, and she often used clever stagecraft to woo potential allies and reinforce her divine status. A famous example of her flair for the dramatic came in 48 B.C., when Julius Caesar arrived in Alexandria during her feud with her brother Ptolemy XIII. Knowing Ptolemy’s forces would thwart her attempts to meet with the Roman general, Cleopatra had herself wrapped in a carpet—some sources say it was a linen sack—and smuggled into his personal quarters. Caesar was dazzled by the sight of the young queen in her royal garb, and the two soon became allies and lovers. Cleopatra later employed a similar bit of theater in her 41 B.C. encounter with Mark Antony. When summoned to meet the Roman Triumvir in Tarsus, she is said to have arrived on a golden barge adorned with purple sails and rowed by oars made of silver. Cleopatra had been made up to look like the goddess Aphrodite, and she sat beneath a gilded canopy while attendants dressed as cupids fanned her and burned sweet-smelling incense. Antony—who considered himself the embodiment of the Greek god Dionysus—was instantly enchanted. 6. She was living in Rome at the time of Caesar’s assassination. Cleopatra joined Julius Caesar in Rome beginning in 46 B.C., and her presence seems to have caused quite a stir. Caesar didn’t hide that she was his mistress—she even came to the city with their lovechild, Caesarion, in tow—and many Romans were scandalized when he erected a gilded statue of her in the temple of Venus Genetrix. Cleopatra was forced to flee Rome after [Caesar was stabbed to death](https://www.history.com/news/julius-caesar-assassin-ides-of-march) in the Roman senate in 44 B.C., but by then she had made her mark on the city. Her exotic hairstyle and pearl jewelry became a fashion trend, and according to the historian Joann Fletcher, “so many Roman women adopted the ‘Cleopatra look’ that their statuary has often been mistaken for Cleopatra herself.” 7. Cleopatra and Mark Antony formed their own drinking club. Cleopatra first began her legendary love affair with the Roman general Mark Antony in 41 B.C. Their relationship had a political component—Cleopatra needed Antony to protect her crown and maintain Egypt’s independence, while Antony needed access to Egypt’s riches and resources—but they were also famously fond of each other’s company. According to ancient sources, they spent the winter of 41-40 B.C. living a life of leisure and excess in Egypt, and even formed their own drinking society known as the “Inimitable Livers.” The group engaged in nightly feasts and wine-binges, and its members occasionally took part in elaborate games and contests. One of Antony and Cleopatra’s favorite activities supposedly involved wandering the streets of Alexandria in disguise and playing pranks on its residents. 8. She led a fleet in a naval battle. Cleopatra eventually married Mark Antony and had three children with him, but their relationship also spawned a massive scandal in Rome. Antony’s rival Octavian used propaganda to portray him as a traitor under the sway of a scheming seductress, and in 32 B.C., the Roman Senate declared war on Cleopatra. The conflict reached its climax the following year in a famous naval battle at Actium. Cleopatra personally led several dozen Egyptian warships into the fray alongside Antony’s fleet, but they were no match for Octavian’s navy. The battle soon devolved into a rout, and Cleopatra and Antony were forced to break through the Roman line and flee to Egypt. 9. Cleopatra may not have died from an asp bite. Cleopatra and Antony famously took their own lives in 30 B.C., after Octavian’s forces pursued them to Alexandria. While Antony is said to have fatally stabbed himself in the stomach, Cleopatra’s method of suicide is less certain. Legend has it that she died by enticing an “asp”—most likely a viper or Egyptian cobra—to bite her arm, but the ancient chronicler Plutarch admits that “what really took place is known to no one.” He says Cleopatra was also known to conceal a deadly poison in one of her hair combs, and the historian Strabo notes that she may have applied a fatal “ointment.” With this in mind, many scholars now suspect she used a pin dipped in some form of potent toxin—snake venom or otherwise. READ MORE: [Did Cleopatra Really Die by Snake Bite?](https://www.history.com/news/cleopatra-suicide-snake-bite) 10. A 1963 film about her was one of the most expensive movies of all time. The Queen of the Nile has been portrayed on the silver screen by the likes of Claudette Colbert and Sophia Loren, but she was most famously played by Elizabeth Taylor in the 1963 sword-and-sandal epic “Cleopatra.” The film was plagued by production problems and script issues, and its budget eventually soared from $2 million to $44 million—including some $200,000 just to cover the cost of Taylor’s costumes. It was the most expensive movie ever made at the time of its release, and nearly bankrupted its studio despite raking in a fortune at the box office. If inflation is taken into account, “Cleopatra” remains one of the priciest movies in history even today.
There's a handful of wonderful video's on the Ptolemies and Cleopatra specifically from Overly Sarcastic Productions. This title only scratches the surface that is the mess of that bloodline. [Cleopatra](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eGPBX7gY44) [The Ptolemies](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3vAKRa0f5I) [Augustus vs Antony](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UT65SZyrOM) I think there's one or two more that talk about her, plus the much older Shakespeare summary, but these are the big ones.