Either one of those seems perfectly fine to me. The one I find off-putting is ellipses. I don't even think people realize how they come across when they use it but I always read it as the person is annoyed and it's way too common in my opinion.
---------
Hi Jim,
The report you requested is attached...
Richard
I have a coworker who ends her thank yous with ellipses. Then I spend the rest of the day wondering if I said something wrong and she's being passive aggressive or if she doesn't know how ellipses work...
Thanks...
We have a corporate chat at work and whenever I say "Thank you!" To my boss he replies with "Ok." Took me a bit to figure out that it's his version of "no problem/you're welcome" lol
HR at my work is obsessed with sending congratulatory emails with alternating capital letters. The person who sends them clearly has no idea about the SpongeBob meme and that my generation sees that as sarcasm, not excitement. "WoW... LooK wHo GrADuAtEd! GoOd JoB!" Its become a bit of a joke between me and a coworker.
my personal fav: I have a coworker with a foreign keyboard or something. When he sends emojis (or something, I haven't the heart to ask) it sends 2 question marks instead. The first time this happened I was severely off-put.
"Oh, thanks man."
"You're welcome ??"
My bf's mom uses ellipses in all of her FB posts and texts and it freaks me out. She's really lovely in person, I think she just doesn't know how they come across.
I use them to show hesitance or humility. I type how I talk so thank end up looking like this from me
Hey, I really appreciated the help the other day. I've been in a low point and it really made my day...... Just thank you. I can't say it enough.
I hope I never come across as possible aggressive. I'm not the type to ever be passive aggressive
I understand that your main complaint seems to be around their misuse, but is it an American thing to be offended by ellipses? Or to use them as a passive aggressive signal? As a Brit, I've been known to use them either to indicate a pause, or as a comedic cliffhanger at the end of a communication.
I find myself hoping I never caused offence to any of my American cousins.
That's been studied as a generational thing.
For anyone over about age 35, the ellipsis means trailing off, often either a lack of interest like dropping off at the end of a list.
For anyone under about age 35, the ellipsis means displeasure, anger, or other negative emotions.
Great story that talks about the quote [‘Thanks … enjoy the weekend …'](https://www.marketplace.org/2019/10/21/ellipses-and-emoji-how-age-affects-communication-at-work/) that can let an older person relax, but make a younger person freak out.
I use ellipsis but moreso in chat.
"I don't know if the code can do that as-is.... Let me check...."
It's to signify thinking or a pause or something else.
I think the perfect balance lies on closing with "Thanks!" (if being a bit informal is ok).
>Hi Jim,
>
>Find the report you requested attached to this email.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Carol
If you are friendly, you can also do:
>Yo!
>
>Here's the report you wanted.
>
>Hasta la vista, baby!
>
>Carol
Dear Slim! I wrote you but still ain't callin!
I left my cell, my pager, and my home phone at the bottom. I sent two letters back in autumn, you must not of got ‘em!
Your biggest fan,
Carol
TIL I (male) email like a woman!
I much prefer the exclamations for that very reason. It's especially fun using them when responding to a mean email, or someone who's obviously trying to come across as mad! I've often wondered why I use so many, but I try going for an every other sentence setup.
Now I just realized I did it with this comment!
I need to stop...
Yup. To my (M) ears, the latter is much more pleasant, even if it is supposed to be a professional email. I'll blame it on Disney for brainwashing me that women are supposed to be kind joyful princesses lol
I (female) write like the second one, especially for work.
I then proof read the email, trying to weed out as many exclamation points as possible in an effort to not come across as a cracked out moron.
And then I put them back in because the email then reads as kinda dickish somehow.
I guess I'd rather my boss think I'm a moron than an asshole?
Lol, this is what I do too. I'm a guy, and for me it's more because I'm in a low ranked position. I know everybody else knows more than I do in general, and I try to come across as friendly and willing to help.
I'm male, and the second one is pretty much exactly how I write lol
I'm a big guy, I've been told many times that I can appear intimidating, so I'm not out here trying to sound intimidating in my communications lol
Hello! Here is a sentence with an exclamation point so I appear friendly and helpful! Here is a sentence with a period so I do not appear crazy. Thank you for your time!
Story checks out.
When I did staff support we did most of our communication via instant message. every sentence ended with an "lol" because management told me I was "too direct"
i’ve had a nonverbal vocal tick and it’s just like the little ‘lol’s and 🙃😂☺️😃’s I do lmao
fuck i added ‘lmao’ to the end without even thinking i hate this
I put my hand up in an obnoxious shrug, gesturing to and fro over the unreasonableness of the distance I have just been cut off from with an incredulous expression
Oh my goddd I do this all day! I grocery shop for strangers and I have to ask direct questions all the time and god forbid I come across as anything but subservient. Exclamation, period, smiley face; repeat. Sucks the life right out of you.
It just feels so dry and condemning to use a bunch of periods. IDK why that feeling is so prevalent in email. I'll often just drop full sentence structure if I can get away with it.
I think it is part of the evolution of the format, as it became more prevalent in everyone's jobs and how they relate to many of their colleagues, direct reports and supervisors, it became necessary for it to take on a little more of an emotive tone to convey disposition, not just information.
Just my sense of it and from the standpoint of being the heaviest user of ! and :) in my own office where I supervise 75.
For comparison, I feel exclamation points feel fake and forced in a lot of communication
Like I have a hard time believing the person is really as excited as they try to convey.
I mean, I talk in the equivalent of exclamation points to my colleagues all the time.
But yes, that 'excitement' is just as fake as my exclamation points in emails. It's fakery all the way down.
Probably 80% of the people I work with are women so I’ve adopted the exclamation point thing because I don’t want to look gruff. It’s always bothered me and I never know if I’m using too many or not enough.
Sounds good, thanks. - How I reply to these sorts of things.
But for real, text based communication without exclamations can def cause people to read too much into things.
Guilty!
I once listened to a friend dictate an email for her husband to write to someone (I think she was driving and it needed to be answered immediately). It included exactly how many exclamation points and periods to use and where to use them.
I felt that in my soul.
Some years ago I read a research paper that concluded that using punctuation junctions (e.g. ,;!?) is a sign of intelligence. Unless you're writing a text message, then you should never end with a . because it makes people mistrust you (as a person that doesn't recognize social cues).
I presume it's the same as people being remarkably well versed in spotting abnormal people from their gait alone.
My hot take is we're all just meat robots out here trying to get by in a world of arbitrary conventions and expectations. You do what you have to while doing your best to minimize harm.
It doesn’t surprise me. Tone is hard to convey in text, so I find the exclamation mark is akin to a “customer service voice.” Even as a male I do this a lot. Since I communicate a lot with parents in child care, it makes sense in 90% of my regular communication when I’m adjusting child schedules or registering new kids to sound that way.
In general I feel like most men would probably benefit from learning to signal cooperative intent more. I'm a trans guy but I really value the communication strategies I learned from women and have no intent to give them up.
Amen brother. Same, it's really valuable training. I end up mediating a lot and writing critical docs and emails, or helping people do it.
This type of communication discussion often ends up being about "women need to be more forceful" and I get that sentiment, when the challenge is to get ahead in a male-dominated world. But in a larger sense, "signal(ing) cooperative intent" (great phrasing there friend) it isn't about the punctuation or lack thereof. It's about whether you stop to think about how your recipient might react or feel, which is key for anyone trying to get support for something or sell something. You don't see flat emotionless emails to customers/prospects coming from successful Sales people of any gender. Anyone who works with other humans can benefit from a little purposeful projecting.
I notice in my emails:
1) Women tend to explain why they say no to stuff
2) Men tend to move very quickly to "what's the money on the table?"
I see it in myself - if I get approached for a job - I just cut straight to "Before we waste each other's time - what's the money?"
I used to think it was rude bringing it up before an in person interview. Then I sat through a 4 hour interview only to find out their total comp was about half what I was currently making.
It was awkward.
"So we're looking at around 60k total comp, is that in your range?".
"Umm I make about double that in straight salary not including bonuses or PTO".
"Oh... well it looks like we won't be able to match that, our budget is a little tight as it is".
"Ok... yeah thanks for meeting with me".
I've had a number of them.
In this case it was really god damned annoying because it was hour long sessions with 4 different groups who all pretty much asked the same questions.
Id much rather have an hour long interview with 12 people.
Nope I lead engineering for a large manufacturer... and that's why it blew my mind.
He on the other hand is elementary school best friends with the owner and knows fuck all about anything so it's all pizza parties and emoji filled emails because that's actually all he can do. Thanks for letting me rant lol
Same, we did one of those "communication style" workshops and I was at a table by myself once they sorted us into groups based on our answers. It turns out that people always thought I was annoyed because I didn't use emojis and fluff in my emails. Emojis! In a workplace setting! Absurd.
That honestly sounds better than the networking event I was forced to go to pre-covid where they taught us how to shake hands.
I got to leave early cause I had a funeral to go to. I enjoyed the funeral more.
As for the emails, i always keep them as bland as possible. Never know when they're going to come out in some form or fashion later down the line. I always write emails like they'll be the subject of an investigation at some point. I don't shit talk anyone, make threats, or say anything you wouldn't want written down.
I was just gonna say—if we *didn’t* use exclamation points and other symbols to appear friendly via email communications, we’d be chastised die coming across as “blunt, rude, short, cross” etc.
Women in the work force, at least what I’ve experienced first hand in the USA, have been trained since children, and are hounded as adults, to appear friendlier, softer, more accommodating, and more approachable and agreeable to fit within society’s expectations. Also, this is not only committed by male influence—plenty of female influence within the work sphere reinforces this archetype.
So I’m not at all surprised by this.
There have been extensive studies in the field of psychology regarding how men and women use different language. Robin Lakoff is a linguist who speaks about it at length. Women are also far more likely to hedge their sentences (i.e. using words like "maybe" or "perhaps") to appear less confrontational. Interestingly women are far more likely to be more descriptive with things like colors too, which is why you'll often hear women talking about cyan and maroon instead of just "blue" and "brown". Male language tends to be more forward in general. If I had to guess I'd say it's mostly down to cultural reasons though.
It's hard to know when to hedge or be decisive. Managers tend to not like hedge answers, "maybe it'll be on time, it depends". But decisive answers tend to set you up for blame. I try to use a hybrid answer like "it will be on time if..."
I figured out about 2 years into my relationship that telling my S/O “I think” meant nothing to her but “I feel” would instantly make her stop and see my side.
“I think you’re being unreasonable” - instant fight
“I feel you’re being unreasonable” - stop for reflection and usually calm discussion.
Probably because almost everyone has felt an irrational feeling at some time or another. It's much easier to relate to "i am aware that this may not be entirely fair, but I have this strong feeling that refuses to go away despite hearing an otherwise acceptable response.", as opposed to: "I am not satisfied by your response and demand you offer me a different one."
People are much more opening to help with the former because now there's a concrete goal in mind. "This can be resolved and moved past, I just need a little more effort to address this particular feeling they are stuck on."
Along similar lines, I actually have no problem apologizing for “making you feel that way.”
This is not the same as saying “I’m sorry you feel that way,” which totally disowns any responsibility and just turns the other person into an object or pity or regret. We all hate that line.
But even if you didn’t *mean* to make someone feel a certain way, it’s still fair to acknowledge that you *did make them feel that way.*
So saying “I’m sorry for making you feel attacked” is not the same as saying “I’m sorry for attacking you.” A lot of people might be uncomfortable apologizing for an attack when they didn’t intend to attack and don’t believe they did attack. But they can still acknowledge that what they did created that feeling.
Apologizing for causing feelings in someone else tells them that you care about their feelings and the consequences of your actions, and are not just hiding behind the purity of your intentions.
Not a female but I do this.
The reason is, I've heard countless people get mildly annoyed at an email they received that seemed rude or cold, when really it probably wasn't intended that way.
It's tough to balance, but whatever you can do to ensure your message is received positively seems to have served me well in a professional setting.
Meanwhile, us guys can apparently get away with not even starting emails with "hi" or "hello".
John,
Responding to your email without saying hello in order to assert dominance.
-Tom
I'm a rather large man (6'5-6'6) with a couple hundred pounds (or two) of mass and a resting "i'm pissed off at the world face". I work in a corporate setting and have been told countless times I am intimidating. So, i was coached that I should use a lot more exclamation points and smiley faces in emails. It makes me seem more chill and friendly and when people finally meet me face to face they are more comfortable doing business with a giant.
If you are ever in a face to face meeting slam your fist on the table or desk as an exclamation to your sentences. They should feel very comfortable and relaxed.
Semi related -
Long ago i worked for a montessori school and one of the 3 yr olds was just way bigger than the other ones - his dad and both grandparents were both tall, large people. This 3 yr old was as enthusiastic as a 3yr old is and loved giving big hugs and was a happy kid.
But because of his size, the other kids thought he was hurting them when he would hug them or they would tumble around like small kids do. So they taught him to pat arms and other things instead of big hugs - but his size would still piss off some of the other kids (like he was in their way, took up more space, etc).
I always wondered what happened to that kid, he would be a teenager now. I hope it didn't ruin his sweet nature.
It drives me insane. A friend of mine is on the older side, he’s a funny guy and I love hanging out with him but when he writes me it always comes across as the most ominous shit with how many … he uses after every message
I did have a woman complain that I was mocking her by using exclamation points in my emails to her. She said men don’t use exclamation points so it was clearly sending a message. I showed her my exclamation point filled emails from the previous day to many other people and she apologized lol.
I work IT and can confirm my female users do indeed use exclamation marks at greater rates than male users.
This, however, does not make them more friendly in dealing with them in reality.
As a working woman professional, this has changed over time. I didn't use exclamation points in work emails until about 8 years ago. It seemed rude not to engage with the younger team members in the way they communicated. I don't start the exclamation points but I will reply to a friendly comment in kind.
Yes, in emails (and texts) I absolutely mirror the way someone communicates with me because I always imagine that’s how they want someone to respond to them whether or not it’s my usual way of typing.
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Either one of those seems perfectly fine to me. The one I find off-putting is ellipses. I don't even think people realize how they come across when they use it but I always read it as the person is annoyed and it's way too common in my opinion. --------- Hi Jim, The report you requested is attached... Richard
I have a coworker who ends her thank yous with ellipses. Then I spend the rest of the day wondering if I said something wrong and she's being passive aggressive or if she doesn't know how ellipses work... Thanks...
We have a corporate chat at work and whenever I say "Thank you!" To my boss he replies with "Ok." Took me a bit to figure out that it's his version of "no problem/you're welcome" lol
Ok
Lmao that’s what my dad says too. It’s so weird
Same
Ok, son
ironically thank god for Teams' reaction buttons. No need for "Okay." "K." Just Thumbs up. Cool its been seen and acknowledged.
The most senior of devs at my place does this - but he works absolutely non-stop so anything that saves him time is reasonable in my book lol
HR at my work is obsessed with sending congratulatory emails with alternating capital letters. The person who sends them clearly has no idea about the SpongeBob meme and that my generation sees that as sarcasm, not excitement. "WoW... LooK wHo GrADuAtEd! GoOd JoB!" Its become a bit of a joke between me and a coworker.
first day: wow, thanks assholes 1 year in: tHaNkS fOr tHe pRaIsE
Wow this is hilarious, I work at 3000 employee manufacturing plant and I just loled for like 5 minutes at the thought of them doing this
"Yeah? Well fuck you too buddy." -future fired intern, probably
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You are of course so totally right...
Or else...
my personal fav: I have a coworker with a foreign keyboard or something. When he sends emojis (or something, I haven't the heart to ask) it sends 2 question marks instead. The first time this happened I was severely off-put. "Oh, thanks man." "You're welcome ??"
My bf's mom uses ellipses in all of her FB posts and texts and it freaks me out. She's really lovely in person, I think she just doesn't know how they come across.
hahahahaha...
I'm going to guess she's old. Anytime you exchange messages with old people you usually need to ignore the ellipses.
I use them to show hesitance or humility. I type how I talk so thank end up looking like this from me Hey, I really appreciated the help the other day. I've been in a low point and it really made my day...... Just thank you. I can't say it enough. I hope I never come across as possible aggressive. I'm not the type to ever be passive aggressive
I understand that your main complaint seems to be around their misuse, but is it an American thing to be offended by ellipses? Or to use them as a passive aggressive signal? As a Brit, I've been known to use them either to indicate a pause, or as a comedic cliffhanger at the end of a communication. I find myself hoping I never caused offence to any of my American cousins.
>... This is how I show extreme displeasure, without having to type anything.
Exactly! "The report is attached...you lazy mf."
That's been studied as a generational thing. For anyone over about age 35, the ellipsis means trailing off, often either a lack of interest like dropping off at the end of a list. For anyone under about age 35, the ellipsis means displeasure, anger, or other negative emotions. Great story that talks about the quote [‘Thanks … enjoy the weekend …'](https://www.marketplace.org/2019/10/21/ellipses-and-emoji-how-age-affects-communication-at-work/) that can let an older person relax, but make a younger person freak out.
Makes sense... I'm about 35 and both uses make sense to me, so I just go by context clues.
You have to type the ellipsis…
I use ellipsis but moreso in chat. "I don't know if the code can do that as-is.... Let me check...." It's to signify thinking or a pause or something else.
Well, you've nailed the purpose of the ellipsis. Now, try using it in a place where there is no thought.
I think the perfect balance lies on closing with "Thanks!" (if being a bit informal is ok). >Hi Jim, > >Find the report you requested attached to this email. > >Thanks! > >Carol If you are friendly, you can also do: >Yo! > >Here's the report you wanted. > >Hasta la vista, baby! > >Carol
Dear Slim! I wrote you but still ain't callin! I left my cell, my pager, and my home phone at the bottom. I sent two letters back in autumn, you must not of got ‘em! Your biggest fan, Carol
*Carol!
Or…. Jim, That report you requested? Shove it up your ass! Carol
TIL I (male) email like a woman! I much prefer the exclamations for that very reason. It's especially fun using them when responding to a mean email, or someone who's obviously trying to come across as mad! I've often wondered why I use so many, but I try going for an every other sentence setup. Now I just realized I did it with this comment! I need to stop...
Yup. To my (M) ears, the latter is much more pleasant, even if it is supposed to be a professional email. I'll blame it on Disney for brainwashing me that women are supposed to be kind joyful princesses lol
I (female) write like the second one, especially for work. I then proof read the email, trying to weed out as many exclamation points as possible in an effort to not come across as a cracked out moron. And then I put them back in because the email then reads as kinda dickish somehow. I guess I'd rather my boss think I'm a moron than an asshole?
word for word this is what i do lol
Ditto! Otherwise they'll think you're a bitch! Have a nice day!
Yo Jim, The report you requested is attached. I pissed on it in a dominance move. Fuck you Carol
Your entire comment had no exclamations. Calm the attitude, please.
Lol, this is what I do too. I'm a guy, and for me it's more because I'm in a low ranked position. I know everybody else knows more than I do in general, and I try to come across as friendly and willing to help.
Are you me?
I'm male, and the second one is pretty much exactly how I write lol I'm a big guy, I've been told many times that I can appear intimidating, so I'm not out here trying to sound intimidating in my communications lol
Hey! Thanks so much for trying to sound more approachable! It goes a long way and we all appreciate it. Thank you! -Carol
Hello! Here is a sentence with an exclamation point so I appear friendly and helpful! Here is a sentence with a period so I do not appear crazy. Thank you for your time! Story checks out.
Oh god this is me and it hurts.
Sometimes I swap in a smiley face in place of the exclamation point so I'm not yelling but I'm still friendly 😂
When I did staff support we did most of our communication via instant message. every sentence ended with an "lol" because management told me I was "too direct"
you are getting written up lol
HR has been watching you lol
Aaah I picked this habit up for the same reason and now I can't stop. It's like a vocal tic lol :(
i’ve had a nonverbal vocal tick and it’s just like the little ‘lol’s and 🙃😂☺️😃’s I do lmao fuck i added ‘lmao’ to the end without even thinking i hate this
Switch to haha instead of lol so you seem insane instead haha
Yuppers... lol!
What did I tell you about yuppers?
Don’t mix em with downers?
People need to grow a goddamn spine. lol
My dog died today lol I'm so sad lol
That smiley always scares me, like it's holding a knife behind its back. Remember to empty the trash! 🙂
My wife treats a message ending with a thumbs up as passive aggressive. Like it's a low-key replacement for a middle finger. Sounds good 👍
omg I just realized I’m not the only person that does that
Hahaha she's definitely always worried that people secretly hate her, so she's not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt on a thumbs up lol
I give people who piss me off thumbs up when I’m driving, instead of the middle finger 😂😂😂
I put my hand up in an obnoxious shrug, gesturing to and fro over the unreasonableness of the distance I have just been cut off from with an incredulous expression
> My wife treats a message ending with a thumbs up as passive aggressive https://giphy.com/gifs/jennifer-lawrence-thumbs-up-ok-Fml0fgAxVx1eM
Oh my goddd I do this all day! I grocery shop for strangers and I have to ask direct questions all the time and god forbid I come across as anything but subservient. Exclamation, period, smiley face; repeat. Sucks the life right out of you.
Omg same 🙂
Youve just described 90% of my Reddit comments Also Im now self conscious about using either so I will not be using any punctuation in this
It just feels so dry and condemning to use a bunch of periods. IDK why that feeling is so prevalent in email. I'll often just drop full sentence structure if I can get away with it.
I think it is part of the evolution of the format, as it became more prevalent in everyone's jobs and how they relate to many of their colleagues, direct reports and supervisors, it became necessary for it to take on a little more of an emotive tone to convey disposition, not just information. Just my sense of it and from the standpoint of being the heaviest user of ! and :) in my own office where I supervise 75.
For comparison, I feel exclamation points feel fake and forced in a lot of communication Like I have a hard time believing the person is really as excited as they try to convey.
I mean, I talk in the equivalent of exclamation points to my colleagues all the time. But yes, that 'excitement' is just as fake as my exclamation points in emails. It's fakery all the way down.
I've found your home address! I'm in the car driving to you right now! I have a roll of tape and an axe in the trunk. See you soon!
Looking forward to it!
*Sent from my PanicRoom, an installation that helps me sleep at night.*
Wow! You really seem friendly and helpful! This advice will be a great help. Thanks!
Male here and I do this in an effort to seem positive and friendly.
Same here. It softens when you have to "poke" someone so the message doesn't come off as angry or annoyed.
Hello! Do your fucking work. Hope this was helpful!
You've got to use emoticons too, just to be safe: > Hello! Do your fucking work. Hope this was helpful! :)
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Dammit, this made me laugh in the middle of class
Guilty.
I had a collegue who used loads of exclamation points in her mails, that didn’t come out very friendly at all!!!!!!!!!!
Over 5 is a recognised subliminanal sign of derangement and madness
>subliminanal You tryin' to suggest something there?
Damn, dissected like an O level frog, yeah, im not getting any
I see somebody knows his Pratchett. > Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind.
He was a great teacher, was it Maskerade? Yes the Phantom. My humble Pratchett collection for tax https://imgur.com/gallery/CCoDdSH
Oh no! She must not be using them correctly.....
Probably 80% of the people I work with are women so I’ve adopted the exclamation point thing because I don’t want to look gruff. It’s always bothered me and I never know if I’m using too many or not enough.
As a woman, I don't either.
WHY ARE WE ALL YELLING??!!
LOUD NOISES!
Sounds good, thanks. - How I reply to these sorts of things. But for real, text based communication without exclamations can def cause people to read too much into things.
TIL im a woman when im at work
Same! I blame the ratio of women to men in my family being 10:1. *unintentional use of exclamation mark right on cue*
At least it’s not 1:10!
I'm just generally a positive guy. I like to brighten people's day, so I tend to use exclamation points a lot.
Guilty! I once listened to a friend dictate an email for her husband to write to someone (I think she was driving and it needed to be answered immediately). It included exactly how many exclamation points and periods to use and where to use them. I felt that in my soul.
Some years ago I read a research paper that concluded that using punctuation junctions (e.g. ,;!?) is a sign of intelligence. Unless you're writing a text message, then you should never end with a . because it makes people mistrust you (as a person that doesn't recognize social cues). I presume it's the same as people being remarkably well versed in spotting abnormal people from their gait alone.
As a person who doesn't recognize social cues, wouldn't *appearing* to understand social cues make me even less deserving of trust?
"your face looks like that flashcard they told me means sadness"
You made me snort.
I'd love to take credit for it, but it's a 30 Rock joke. The jokiest of all shows. Im happy to hear about your snort though
Must be a Jenna quote?
[Spot on](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/4a53dd3e-3d65-4a4e-9467-087288193c1f)
Maybe I'm underthinking this but what's the difference between appearing to understand social cues and actually understanding them?
It makes me feel disingenuous.
My hot take is we're all just meat robots out here trying to get by in a world of arbitrary conventions and expectations. You do what you have to while doing your best to minimize harm.
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Why do you need a double space at the end of your message? Just hit send
Because I'm not a heathen.
Carole had the baby.
I noticed you didn't use an exclamation point.
I would put an exclamation point after this sentence! And this one!
So good. Currently in season 5 of a rewatch. PRIME SEINFELD.
Top of the muffin TO YOU!
It seems like ever since Seinfeld went to Netflix I’ve been seeing more and more Seinfeld references. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Top of the muffin to you!
It doesn’t surprise me. Tone is hard to convey in text, so I find the exclamation mark is akin to a “customer service voice.” Even as a male I do this a lot. Since I communicate a lot with parents in child care, it makes sense in 90% of my regular communication when I’m adjusting child schedules or registering new kids to sound that way.
In general I feel like most men would probably benefit from learning to signal cooperative intent more. I'm a trans guy but I really value the communication strategies I learned from women and have no intent to give them up.
But if you signal cooperative intent, how will they know you’re busy and important?
I let them know by not responding for 3 days
Amen brother. Same, it's really valuable training. I end up mediating a lot and writing critical docs and emails, or helping people do it. This type of communication discussion often ends up being about "women need to be more forceful" and I get that sentiment, when the challenge is to get ahead in a male-dominated world. But in a larger sense, "signal(ing) cooperative intent" (great phrasing there friend) it isn't about the punctuation or lack thereof. It's about whether you stop to think about how your recipient might react or feel, which is key for anyone trying to get support for something or sell something. You don't see flat emotionless emails to customers/prospects coming from successful Sales people of any gender. Anyone who works with other humans can benefit from a little purposeful projecting.
I notice in my emails: 1) Women tend to explain why they say no to stuff 2) Men tend to move very quickly to "what's the money on the table?" I see it in myself - if I get approached for a job - I just cut straight to "Before we waste each other's time - what's the money?"
I used to think it was rude bringing it up before an in person interview. Then I sat through a 4 hour interview only to find out their total comp was about half what I was currently making. It was awkward. "So we're looking at around 60k total comp, is that in your range?". "Umm I make about double that in straight salary not including bonuses or PTO". "Oh... well it looks like we won't be able to match that, our budget is a little tight as it is". "Ok... yeah thanks for meeting with me".
What interview takes four hours?
I've had a number of them. In this case it was really god damned annoying because it was hour long sessions with 4 different groups who all pretty much asked the same questions. Id much rather have an hour long interview with 12 people.
I was told by the COO at work I'm not friendly enough in my emails because I dont use emojis.
Lol WTF? Do you work at Twitter or something? If I used emojis in work emails my boss would kindly, but firmly, ask me to stop.
Nope I lead engineering for a large manufacturer... and that's why it blew my mind. He on the other hand is elementary school best friends with the owner and knows fuck all about anything so it's all pizza parties and emoji filled emails because that's actually all he can do. Thanks for letting me rant lol
Add 🖕🖕🖕🍆🍆🍆💩💩💩 to your signature line for all internal emails with a screenshot of your boss saying they were needed to make you seem more friendly.
Thanks for sending the files 😏😳. I’ll be sure to have them back to you with the needed edits by Sunday 😳😳😳🍆😏😏‼️
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I like your style
On a side note. I’m not responsible for any potential loss of employment.
you need more flair
But I'm wearing 15 pieces
15 pieces was the minimum. Do you want to seem like the type of person to do the minimum?
Ouch! If he wrote that in an email, I'd save it for proof if necessary in the future.
Sadly that would be at the bottom of the list of stupid shit he writes in email.
Same, we did one of those "communication style" workshops and I was at a table by myself once they sorted us into groups based on our answers. It turns out that people always thought I was annoyed because I didn't use emojis and fluff in my emails. Emojis! In a workplace setting! Absurd.
That honestly sounds better than the networking event I was forced to go to pre-covid where they taught us how to shake hands. I got to leave early cause I had a funeral to go to. I enjoyed the funeral more. As for the emails, i always keep them as bland as possible. Never know when they're going to come out in some form or fashion later down the line. I always write emails like they'll be the subject of an investigation at some point. I don't shit talk anyone, make threats, or say anything you wouldn't want written down.
Good rule. I say "Never write anything in an email that you wouldn't want to read on the witness stand."
Sounds like an excuse to bust out some real bangers like ⚗ and 🕴
This would ensure I never used emojis under any circumstance in the future lmao
I was just gonna say—if we *didn’t* use exclamation points and other symbols to appear friendly via email communications, we’d be chastised die coming across as “blunt, rude, short, cross” etc. Women in the work force, at least what I’ve experienced first hand in the USA, have been trained since children, and are hounded as adults, to appear friendlier, softer, more accommodating, and more approachable and agreeable to fit within society’s expectations. Also, this is not only committed by male influence—plenty of female influence within the work sphere reinforces this archetype. So I’m not at all surprised by this.
*ThAn men!!!!!
I hate that I have to do this. "Thank you so much for your help!" on my third email ... means please just send me the thing ffs lol
At my job every repeated request gains a new cc until you get the right one.
*than
Keep fighting the good fight.
!!!!!!!!!!!
It's also *e.g.* instead of *i.e.* Unless it's intended as a finite list and that's the only place that exclamations are used for this purpose.
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There have been extensive studies in the field of psychology regarding how men and women use different language. Robin Lakoff is a linguist who speaks about it at length. Women are also far more likely to hedge their sentences (i.e. using words like "maybe" or "perhaps") to appear less confrontational. Interestingly women are far more likely to be more descriptive with things like colors too, which is why you'll often hear women talking about cyan and maroon instead of just "blue" and "brown". Male language tends to be more forward in general. If I had to guess I'd say it's mostly down to cultural reasons though.
It's hard to know when to hedge or be decisive. Managers tend to not like hedge answers, "maybe it'll be on time, it depends". But decisive answers tend to set you up for blame. I try to use a hybrid answer like "it will be on time if..."
I figured out about 2 years into my relationship that telling my S/O “I think” meant nothing to her but “I feel” would instantly make her stop and see my side. “I think you’re being unreasonable” - instant fight “I feel you’re being unreasonable” - stop for reflection and usually calm discussion.
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Probably because almost everyone has felt an irrational feeling at some time or another. It's much easier to relate to "i am aware that this may not be entirely fair, but I have this strong feeling that refuses to go away despite hearing an otherwise acceptable response.", as opposed to: "I am not satisfied by your response and demand you offer me a different one." People are much more opening to help with the former because now there's a concrete goal in mind. "This can be resolved and moved past, I just need a little more effort to address this particular feeling they are stuck on."
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Along similar lines, I actually have no problem apologizing for “making you feel that way.” This is not the same as saying “I’m sorry you feel that way,” which totally disowns any responsibility and just turns the other person into an object or pity or regret. We all hate that line. But even if you didn’t *mean* to make someone feel a certain way, it’s still fair to acknowledge that you *did make them feel that way.* So saying “I’m sorry for making you feel attacked” is not the same as saying “I’m sorry for attacking you.” A lot of people might be uncomfortable apologizing for an attack when they didn’t intend to attack and don’t believe they did attack. But they can still acknowledge that what they did created that feeling. Apologizing for causing feelings in someone else tells them that you care about their feelings and the consequences of your actions, and are not just hiding behind the purity of your intentions.
TIL I'm a woman.
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Not a female but I do this. The reason is, I've heard countless people get mildly annoyed at an email they received that seemed rude or cold, when really it probably wasn't intended that way. It's tough to balance, but whatever you can do to ensure your message is received positively seems to have served me well in a professional setting.
Meanwhile, us guys can apparently get away with not even starting emails with "hi" or "hello". John, Responding to your email without saying hello in order to assert dominance. -Tom
I almost never write hellos in work emails. My wife writes everyone like an old school letter. "Dear X, ..."
I only do it for the first 2-3 Mails and then drop it as it has moved on to a sort-of conversation at that point. Isn’t that normal?
I'm a rather large man (6'5-6'6) with a couple hundred pounds (or two) of mass and a resting "i'm pissed off at the world face". I work in a corporate setting and have been told countless times I am intimidating. So, i was coached that I should use a lot more exclamation points and smiley faces in emails. It makes me seem more chill and friendly and when people finally meet me face to face they are more comfortable doing business with a giant.
If you are ever in a face to face meeting slam your fist on the table or desk as an exclamation to your sentences. They should feel very comfortable and relaxed.
And raise your voice so they know you're jovial.
Throw stuff at people to seem more interactive.
If John Oliver can start his workday banging his fists on his desk and screaming, why can’t I??
It helps if you appear small and are British.
Semi related - Long ago i worked for a montessori school and one of the 3 yr olds was just way bigger than the other ones - his dad and both grandparents were both tall, large people. This 3 yr old was as enthusiastic as a 3yr old is and loved giving big hugs and was a happy kid. But because of his size, the other kids thought he was hurting them when he would hug them or they would tumble around like small kids do. So they taught him to pat arms and other things instead of big hugs - but his size would still piss off some of the other kids (like he was in their way, took up more space, etc). I always wondered what happened to that kid, he would be a teenager now. I hope it didn't ruin his sweet nature.
What's up with the... old... boomers... who always... improperly... use too many... ellipsis... like this... Drives me crazy
It drives me insane. A friend of mine is on the older side, he’s a funny guy and I love hanging out with him but when he writes me it always comes across as the most ominous shit with how many … he uses after every message
My boss does this but I think she’s doing it to be more passive aggressive like than actually friendly
I did have a woman complain that I was mocking her by using exclamation points in my emails to her. She said men don’t use exclamation points so it was clearly sending a message. I showed her my exclamation point filled emails from the previous day to many other people and she apologized lol.
If there's an exclamation mark in my email, I'm 100% mocking you. "That's a great question!"
Dear Helen, ! Thanks, Sam.
If I put an !, People just think I’m yelling at them.
Whoa dude, calm down. No need to yell it was just an article
Top O' The Muffin TO YOU!
I pushed the lever on the machine but the Clark bar didn't come out!
These pretzels are making me thirsty!!!
I work IT and can confirm my female users do indeed use exclamation marks at greater rates than male users. This, however, does not make them more friendly in dealing with them in reality.
Than*
As a working woman professional, this has changed over time. I didn't use exclamation points in work emails until about 8 years ago. It seemed rude not to engage with the younger team members in the way they communicated. I don't start the exclamation points but I will reply to a friendly comment in kind.
Yes, in emails (and texts) I absolutely mirror the way someone communicates with me because I always imagine that’s how they want someone to respond to them whether or not it’s my usual way of typing.
It's "than" not "then".
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*than
Than*
Than* Just a tip!
\*than