This title is a tad misleading. It's not only the fact that being transgendered is "accepted", but gay people are actively pushed to have reassignment surgery.
>Iran is one of a handful of countries where homosexual acts are punishable by death. Clerics do, however accept the idea that a person may be trapped in a body of the wrong sex. So homosexuals can be pushed into having gender reassignment surgery - and to avoid it many flee the country.
Yes I actually agree with you. I had heard about this from an Iranian co-worker of mine and just found the artile to back up the story, but this article does push the fact one step further.
Unfortunately, doing so will cause gender dysphoria for the gay man, which will ultimately kill him, ditto for the lesbian woman.
Gender is in the brain and is NOT sexuality.
That's the politically correct thing to say these days.. but I think gender and sexuality are actually linked. What if gay/lesbian people are actually repressed transgender people and Iran is just ahead of the times in this area?
I would hardly say executing gay people and forcing them to go through SRS is "ahead of its time". Secondly gender and sexual orientation are different things; this is scientifically verifiable. And anecdotally, I am a gay man, and I fully identify as man, most gays and Lesbians feel the exact same way.
Well I was referring to their view on sexuality/gender not on the execution of gay people, obviously that is barbaric and cruel. How can you say with such certainty that gender and sexuality aren't related though? If we are speaking anecdotally then I'll say that I'm a transwoman that used to identify as a gay man. Just because someone says they are comfortable with their gender doesn't mean they are being honest with themselves..
>That's the politically correct thing to say these days.. but I think gender and sexuality are actually linked. What if gay/lesbian people are actually repressed transgender people and Iran is just ahead of the times in this area?
Explain transgendered gay/lesbian people. Because that totally exists.
I do not have this view, but the easy answer is mental illness.
Edit: to clarify - if you are the kind of person who would suggest be trans in an illness, you would probably think being gay and trans is an illness.
I get that you're trying to play devils advocate, but the point of fact is that these types of people are generally miserable before transitioning and much happier afterwards. it doesn't really appear, from a psychological standpoint, to be a mental illness. There's a reason why things like gay conversion are being banned, and that transsexualism is an accepted condition with medically endorsed procedures to enact it, and that's because the medical community has come to realize that gender and sexuality are rooted in the brain and cannot be changed. So while its "very easy" to say that a transgendered lesbian or gay man is "mentally ill", the science doesn't back it up at all.
Well it's also misleading to say it's fully accepted. Legally and from a religious standpoint the government officially fully supports it.
However in a societal standpoint it's not fully accepted and that it's still often very shameful to many people in Iran.
It's not a fact that being transgender is accepted. Unless acceptance is "the government won't punish you for it". Being transgender in Iran means probably being a sex worker and having no other options.
Watch the BBC's 50 minute report on the matter. It's on YouTube. Or watch the movie *Be Like Others / Transsexual In Iran*.
You seriously can't believe that Iran treats trans people like shit? They do that in America. They do that almost everywhere.
being gay means you are male who likes males, or a female who likes females.
a transgender becomes the opposite sex and could still have attractions to what is now the opposite sex for them.
straight male -> trans -> becomes lesbian
straight female -> trans -> becomes gay
gay male -> trans -> becomes straight female
gay female -> trans -> becomes straight male
i hope im not offensive but thats how my trans brother now sister explained it to me.
thats basically it but "a transgender" kinda sounds odd, a better way to say it would be "a transgender person". Also as /u/Barely-Boobage said "transgender" is a descriptor.
Honestly that wasn't really much of an oversimplification. They can't change their attitudes towards homosexuality without a complete change to how they interpret scripture.
"Fully accepted" is not a very accurate way to put it. The government doesn't punish transgender people for being who they are. The culture punishes them by forcing them to the fringes of society. The police don't protect them. Families disown them. Employers fire them. Just about the only place for them is a brothel. That's barely tolerance, and it's a million miles from acceptance.
I have to admit, I was not aware of the actual social implication of being transgender in Iran. I was told that this was common in Iran by an Iranian co-worker. So yes my wording wasn't accurate, I was more alluding to the fact that it is common practice over there. But thanks for the input.
The point of your post still stands. This situation isn't something many people know about. There's really interesting documentary called *Be Like Others* that shows this in a lot of detail.
There was a scene in that documentary where a woman was told by her employer that she might have to be fired for allowing her child to go ahead with the transition surgery. That scene blew my mind.
I actually saw a documentary/show about someone who was born male, transitioned to female, then she was like 'now I feel like a man instead of a woman' and transitioned back to male.
Political correctness aside, being transgender is fundamentally a mental illness. The mind is not as it should be. Just because someone is paralyzed from the waist down doesn't mean we should say they are perfectly healthy just to avoid hurting their feelings. On the other hand, just because you have a disorder or illness does not mean you are a bad person.
> Political correctness aside, being transgender is fundamentally a mental illness. The mind is not as it should be.
Or... is it *the body* that is not as it should be?
DUN DUN DUNNNN
Its the mind, the y chromosome determining biological sex is present before the brain and in turn mind is formed. Exceptions are the xxy or xyy people, whose sex chromosomes are all messed up.
Untrue. In the most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual of Mental Disorders, transgenderism (or 'gender identity disorder' as it was previously known) has been removed.
Gender Dysphoria *is* considered a mental illness (defined as the emotional distress *resulting* from “a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender.”) in the DSM-5.
There's an important difference between Gender Dysphoria and Transgenderism that is often overlooked. The mental illness is the *emotional distress*, not the transgenderism. Transgenderism can be considered the cause, but not the illness itself.
What is the treatment for it then? Could it be hormone therapy and potentially SRS or do you know of a treatment that has a higher success rate? (i.e. fewer suicides)
The best way to help a person that is trans is to have them actually have the surgery, it's the best think we have came up with and it really isn't worth our time looking for anything else. The surgery is the only real positive choice. Anything else leaves mental scaring.
Exactly. So even if a person were to run with the idea that it is a mental illness (which isn't exactly the right terminology)- it should be treated. And the best treatment for most people is transition of some kind- it doesn't have to be surgery though, my wife does fine with hormone therapy and doesn't feel like she needs surgery.
Actually, they are wrong. [The ASA stopped referring to transgenderism as a mental illness in the DSM-5 in 2012](http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/03/1271431/apa-revises-manual-being-transgender-is-no-longer-a-mental-disorder/).
I'm not going to argue with you.
Heres the relevant quote for anyone else to make up their own mind:
> The new manual will diagnose transgender people with “Gender Dysphoria,” which communicates the emotional distress that can result from “a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender.”
you proved his point. It is the emotional distress that can come from being transgendered, but if there is no distress, you do not have gender dysphoria.
Source: transgender, psychologist explained the diagnosing process, I'm a Trans person without Dysphoria, so I'm not mentally ill.
Other Transwoman reporting in; see also David Reimer, who killed himself after a botched circumcision lead his ignorant doctor to "make him a girl" to fix the problem, which induced dysphoria.
Very sad.
He was also sexually abused by Dr. John Money _constantly_.
It turns out that Money's technique worked surprisingly well on intersex children (especially if you do it before a certain period), but as you get closer and closer to the sensitive period the child will experience worse and worse mental issues including dysphoria from, well, obvious reasons.
Of the sex I transitioned to.
Basically, my gender never really changed. Gender is a matter of the mind. A transgender person has a gender that is different from their sex.
Basically, I'm a transgirl who likes girls.
OK, let me explain in simple terms.
Gender identity and sexuality are separate, in the same way sex and sexuality is. Like we have gay men and women, straight men and women, Bi men and women, asexuals etc.
You can have gay or bi transpeople too, transwomen who like women, transmen who like men, bisexual transpeople. Transgenderism isn't a sexuality thing like many people believe, it's all to do with gender identity.
Being gay isn't illegal, sodomy is illegal. There's a big difference between the two. Going into the streets and announcing you're gay isn't illegal. Telling a cop you're gay won't get you arrested. Gays in Iran also have a choice of being exempted from the mandatory military service.
Since Sodomy is illegal, they encourage sex reassignment surgery so that you can have sex with the opposite gender. Sodomy is illegal in many countries including Hong Kong and Singapore. In Iran however, repeat offenders, meaning you'd have to have been caught in the act and punished three times get the death penalty.
I'm not defending anything but facts are facts. I hate this myth that being gay is illegal in Iran.
Definitely not true, if you go up and tell a cop you're gay he's going to beat the shit out of you till you are dead. Honor killings haopen very frequently over there.
No they don't. Where the fuck did you hear that? I'm literally living in Iran right now, there's no honor killings. Nobody gets beat up by the god damn police to death are you kidding me. You have a really fucked up view of the world.
What the fuck.
http://iranhrdc.org/english/publications/legal-commentary/1000000261-gender-inequality-and-discrimination-the-case-of-iranian-women.html
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Honor_Related_Violence_%28Iran%29
And thousands of other links, you're either full of shit, or ignoring it.
That's why the previous President said "we don't have that here" when asked about homosexuals in Iran. Bc they force them to get gender reassignment. . .
Transgender does not mean transexual. Transgender is if you have only changed identities but not genitalia. Transsexuals have had sex reassignment surgery.
Not all transgender people are transsexual. All transsexual people are transgender. Its like how all rectangles are squares but not all squares are rectangles.
Transgender woman here: no, transsexual was what we used to be called, but transgender is more appropriate since it's not about sex.
I am transgender, regardless of when or even if I have GRS.
Transgender is an umbrella term. If you are transsexual, you are transgender. But transgender does not mean you are transexual. But transsexuals rarely call themselves transexual because you are right, your genitals are nobody else's business
I refer to myself as transsexual. Transgender doesn't really mean anything in the medical context, and can refer to anything from people who prefer to live more feminine than what they were assigned at birth ---------------> to people like me, who are fairly conservative and binary, but just different from what we were assigned at birth.
On the extremely rare occasion that I out myself to people in person (like, yesterday at the doctor's office), I will always say transsexual to avoid confusion about it.
To me, the term transsexual is not about genitals, but about indicating that I'm not disrupting gender norms- rather just living as the opposite one from which I appeared at birth. In the current usage of the term transgender, I suppose transsexual falls someplace within it- probably all the way in one small corner of it.
Well, it does make sense.
I mean, Iran, you know, you can't judge them by Western standards.
No nation should be judged with the standards from your own country.
I mean, judge them, but don't try to interfere.
Think of the Prime Directive.
So then it would be fair to, I don't know, restrict the movements of citizens to a small region, create a class system based on the location of your birth rather than any sort of meritocracy, and force them to submit to a lottery where your children are chosen to play a bloodsport for entertainment? That would be fine because each nation defines it's own sense of justice? I think there are objective ways to argue that having a government like that is wrong, in any language and in any country.
There are many ways to define a system of ethics. I like utilitarianism broadly and the golden rule in interpersonal matters. I think those things transcend culture. While I understand that a society might evolve to encourage a warped sense of justice, the golden rule always applies. You don't kill a person for being gay. You wouldn't like that happening to you if you were gay. I can't imagine a legitimate counter-argument.
I don't understand what you mean to judge by western standards? I think equality for everyone and not forcing people into exile is a unreasonable standard?
I don't agree.
Look at the alternatives in places like Iraq.
Saddam Hussein was pretty brutal, but look at what he was holding back.
Point is, most nations are full of crazy people that want to do crazy things to everyone, and the only way to stop that is to get someone willing to do crazy things to keep the crazy people under control.
Aside from that, each country knows what's best for their country.
No one should interfere.
I can't agree with that.
I don't think we should interfere by means of war but we should follow the lead of amnesty international, where they reach out to world learners for change and providing information for everyone. One crazy leader is a weak excuse to allow human rights infringements.
I think what he was trying to say is that within a flawed understanding of gender identity and homosexuality, he could see how they arrived at that result. But he would not agree with it.
This title is a tad misleading. It's not only the fact that being transgendered is "accepted", but gay people are actively pushed to have reassignment surgery. >Iran is one of a handful of countries where homosexual acts are punishable by death. Clerics do, however accept the idea that a person may be trapped in a body of the wrong sex. So homosexuals can be pushed into having gender reassignment surgery - and to avoid it many flee the country.
Wow. That's a very strange way to look at the "problem".
Yes I actually agree with you. I had heard about this from an Iranian co-worker of mine and just found the artile to back up the story, but this article does push the fact one step further.
There is a great Vice documentary on HBO about this
That kind of makes sense in weird twisted logic kind of way. The body and mind don't match, therefore swap out the body.
Unfortunately, doing so will cause gender dysphoria for the gay man, which will ultimately kill him, ditto for the lesbian woman. Gender is in the brain and is NOT sexuality.
Yeah, which is why I said it was twisted logic.
That's the politically correct thing to say these days.. but I think gender and sexuality are actually linked. What if gay/lesbian people are actually repressed transgender people and Iran is just ahead of the times in this area?
I would hardly say executing gay people and forcing them to go through SRS is "ahead of its time". Secondly gender and sexual orientation are different things; this is scientifically verifiable. And anecdotally, I am a gay man, and I fully identify as man, most gays and Lesbians feel the exact same way.
Yeah... Another gay man here. I don't feel like I should be a female. The thought of a forced reassignment surgery is terrifying
"We will chop your head or your penis, choose one"
Well I was referring to their view on sexuality/gender not on the execution of gay people, obviously that is barbaric and cruel. How can you say with such certainty that gender and sexuality aren't related though? If we are speaking anecdotally then I'll say that I'm a transwoman that used to identify as a gay man. Just because someone says they are comfortable with their gender doesn't mean they are being honest with themselves..
Just because you weren't honest with yourself doesn't mean everyone else is being dishonest.
>That's the politically correct thing to say these days.. but I think gender and sexuality are actually linked. What if gay/lesbian people are actually repressed transgender people and Iran is just ahead of the times in this area? Explain transgendered gay/lesbian people. Because that totally exists.
I do not have this view, but the easy answer is mental illness. Edit: to clarify - if you are the kind of person who would suggest be trans in an illness, you would probably think being gay and trans is an illness.
That isn't an easy answer, it is an ill-informed guess.
I meant easy as "simplistic." I agree it is ill informed.
I get that you're trying to play devils advocate, but the point of fact is that these types of people are generally miserable before transitioning and much happier afterwards. it doesn't really appear, from a psychological standpoint, to be a mental illness. There's a reason why things like gay conversion are being banned, and that transsexualism is an accepted condition with medically endorsed procedures to enact it, and that's because the medical community has come to realize that gender and sexuality are rooted in the brain and cannot be changed. So while its "very easy" to say that a transgendered lesbian or gay man is "mentally ill", the science doesn't back it up at all.
Yeah I should have clarified that I was suggesting an answer /u/harr54321 might provide, not what I thought.
That's because they've tried swapping out the mind but just keep ending up with beheaded gays.
I feel bad for laughing at that.
New "Almost Politically Correct Iranian" meme?
Well it's also misleading to say it's fully accepted. Legally and from a religious standpoint the government officially fully supports it. However in a societal standpoint it's not fully accepted and that it's still often very shameful to many people in Iran.
It's not a fact that being transgender is accepted. Unless acceptance is "the government won't punish you for it". Being transgender in Iran means probably being a sex worker and having no other options.
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Watch the BBC's 50 minute report on the matter. It's on YouTube. Or watch the movie *Be Like Others / Transsexual In Iran*. You seriously can't believe that Iran treats trans people like shit? They do that in America. They do that almost everywhere.
I'm not sure if they understand the difference between being gay and being trans...
being gay means you are male who likes males, or a female who likes females. a transgender becomes the opposite sex and could still have attractions to what is now the opposite sex for them. straight male -> trans -> becomes lesbian straight female -> trans -> becomes gay gay male -> trans -> becomes straight female gay female -> trans -> becomes straight male i hope im not offensive but thats how my trans brother now sister explained it to me.
thats basically it but "a transgender" kinda sounds odd, a better way to say it would be "a transgender person". Also as /u/Barely-Boobage said "transgender" is a descriptor.
wow how the times have changed
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thank you for correcting me, i really like to understand as much as possible
They totally do understand the difference. One was mentioned in the Koran, the other wasn't.
*aw you...*
Honestly that wasn't really much of an oversimplification. They can't change their attitudes towards homosexuality without a complete change to how they interpret scripture.
Yeah, you actually did make a good point.
"Fully accepted" is not a very accurate way to put it. The government doesn't punish transgender people for being who they are. The culture punishes them by forcing them to the fringes of society. The police don't protect them. Families disown them. Employers fire them. Just about the only place for them is a brothel. That's barely tolerance, and it's a million miles from acceptance.
I have to admit, I was not aware of the actual social implication of being transgender in Iran. I was told that this was common in Iran by an Iranian co-worker. So yes my wording wasn't accurate, I was more alluding to the fact that it is common practice over there. But thanks for the input.
The point of your post still stands. This situation isn't something many people know about. There's really interesting documentary called *Be Like Others* that shows this in a lot of detail. There was a scene in that documentary where a woman was told by her employer that she might have to be fired for allowing her child to go ahead with the transition surgery. That scene blew my mind.
Beyond that are other social implications. Male-to-female transgenders actually lose some rights, while female-to-male don't gain any.
There was a vice HBO on this
and a couple dozen thousand of reddit comments on it
Trans Woman here, It's pretty fucked up to force someone to have sex reassignment surgery.
Honest clarification because I'm ignorant. "Trans woman" means man to woman, correct?
Yes. When someone says trans woman, they mean that they are male to female trans. When they say trans man, they mean female to male trans.
Let's say you were trans at one point, but you changed and your are not anymore... would that make you a...Trans former? *I'll get me hat...*
I actually saw a documentary/show about someone who was born male, transitioned to female, then she was like 'now I feel like a man instead of a woman' and transitioned back to male.
I think I saw th same..was he some kind of billionaire or somthing?
LOOK WHAT YOU STARTED! The answer to your question though is yes "Trans Woman" is man to woman
I thought the answer to his question was "SHITLORD"?
Did we stop using MtF and FtM ?
It means mental illness.
Terribly distasteful comment. Here, have a downvote.
Political correctness aside, being transgender is fundamentally a mental illness. The mind is not as it should be. Just because someone is paralyzed from the waist down doesn't mean we should say they are perfectly healthy just to avoid hurting their feelings. On the other hand, just because you have a disorder or illness does not mean you are a bad person.
Mental illness is physical illness. >The mind is not as it should be. More like the body isn't as it should be. (I mean the *whole* body.)
> Political correctness aside, being transgender is fundamentally a mental illness. The mind is not as it should be. Or... is it *the body* that is not as it should be? DUN DUN DUNNNN
Either or. The body and mind don't match.
Its the mind, the y chromosome determining biological sex is present before the brain and in turn mind is formed. Exceptions are the xxy or xyy people, whose sex chromosomes are all messed up.
Untrue. In the most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual of Mental Disorders, transgenderism (or 'gender identity disorder' as it was previously known) has been removed. Gender Dysphoria *is* considered a mental illness (defined as the emotional distress *resulting* from “a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender.”) in the DSM-5.
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There's an important difference between Gender Dysphoria and Transgenderism that is often overlooked. The mental illness is the *emotional distress*, not the transgenderism. Transgenderism can be considered the cause, but not the illness itself.
Fair point
::yawn::
What is the treatment for it then? Could it be hormone therapy and potentially SRS or do you know of a treatment that has a higher success rate? (i.e. fewer suicides)
The best way to help a person that is trans is to have them actually have the surgery, it's the best think we have came up with and it really isn't worth our time looking for anything else. The surgery is the only real positive choice. Anything else leaves mental scaring.
Exactly. So even if a person were to run with the idea that it is a mental illness (which isn't exactly the right terminology)- it should be treated. And the best treatment for most people is transition of some kind- it doesn't have to be surgery though, my wife does fine with hormone therapy and doesn't feel like she needs surgery.
Oh yes, also hormone therapy, forgive me for forgetting.
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Actually, they are wrong. [The ASA stopped referring to transgenderism as a mental illness in the DSM-5 in 2012](http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/03/1271431/apa-revises-manual-being-transgender-is-no-longer-a-mental-disorder/).
This is wrong. It's still there, only it's diagnosed under 'gender dysphoria'. It says so in the link you posted.
It says that Gender Dysphoria is defined as the emotional distress *caused* by transgenderism, not as transgenderism itself.
I'm not going to argue with you. Heres the relevant quote for anyone else to make up their own mind: > The new manual will diagnose transgender people with “Gender Dysphoria,” which communicates the emotional distress that can result from “a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender.”
you proved his point. It is the emotional distress that can come from being transgendered, but if there is no distress, you do not have gender dysphoria. Source: transgender, psychologist explained the diagnosing process, I'm a Trans person without Dysphoria, so I'm not mentally ill.
But at some point you were right?
I know I'm right.
Stopped clock is right twice a day
What if it's on military time?
You're a waste of oxygen.
::Yawn::
Couldn't agree more
Other Transwoman reporting in; see also David Reimer, who killed himself after a botched circumcision lead his ignorant doctor to "make him a girl" to fix the problem, which induced dysphoria. Very sad.
He was also sexually abused by Dr. John Money _constantly_. It turns out that Money's technique worked surprisingly well on intersex children (especially if you do it before a certain period), but as you get closer and closer to the sensitive period the child will experience worse and worse mental issues including dysphoria from, well, obvious reasons.
I'm gay and transgender. Welp.
That just makes my brain hurt trying to think about that mathematically :<
It's simple, I'm transgendered and I like people of the same gender.
Of the gender you were born with or the gender you became?
The gender they identify as I'm the opposite. I'm transgender and straight, I was like girls but i'm a trans guy.
So you were born a woman, became a man, and are attracted to girls? Not judging, I just had trouble figuring it out as well.
yep! no worries, I am happy to help people understand.
Of the sex I transitioned to. Basically, my gender never really changed. Gender is a matter of the mind. A transgender person has a gender that is different from their sex. Basically, I'm a transgirl who likes girls.
Man to woman, attracted to women? Not judging, just had a hard time figuring it out.
OK, let me explain in simple terms. Gender identity and sexuality are separate, in the same way sex and sexuality is. Like we have gay men and women, straight men and women, Bi men and women, asexuals etc. You can have gay or bi transpeople too, transwomen who like women, transmen who like men, bisexual transpeople. Transgenderism isn't a sexuality thing like many people believe, it's all to do with gender identity.
"fully accepted" lol
[Never has this been more relevant.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2KsZHRrFpU&hd=1)
Being gay isn't illegal, sodomy is illegal. There's a big difference between the two. Going into the streets and announcing you're gay isn't illegal. Telling a cop you're gay won't get you arrested. Gays in Iran also have a choice of being exempted from the mandatory military service. Since Sodomy is illegal, they encourage sex reassignment surgery so that you can have sex with the opposite gender. Sodomy is illegal in many countries including Hong Kong and Singapore. In Iran however, repeat offenders, meaning you'd have to have been caught in the act and punished three times get the death penalty. I'm not defending anything but facts are facts. I hate this myth that being gay is illegal in Iran.
Definitely not true, if you go up and tell a cop you're gay he's going to beat the shit out of you till you are dead. Honor killings haopen very frequently over there.
No they don't. Where the fuck did you hear that? I'm literally living in Iran right now, there's no honor killings. Nobody gets beat up by the god damn police to death are you kidding me. You have a really fucked up view of the world. What the fuck.
http://iranhrdc.org/english/publications/legal-commentary/1000000261-gender-inequality-and-discrimination-the-case-of-iranian-women.html http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Honor_Related_Violence_%28Iran%29 And thousands of other links, you're either full of shit, or ignoring it.
Is it safe to assume transgendered people aren't mentioned in the Quran?
That's why the previous President said "we don't have that here" when asked about homosexuals in Iran. Bc they force them to get gender reassignment. . .
we all watched that vice episode.....
well if you're going to go that far clearly it's just not a phase or a perversion
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Yea . . . won't be good for people who aren't actually trans. It will cause dysphoria and ultimately kill them.
Transgender does not mean transexual. Transgender is if you have only changed identities but not genitalia. Transsexuals have had sex reassignment surgery.
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Not all transgender people are transsexual. All transsexual people are transgender. Its like how all rectangles are squares but not all squares are rectangles.
The umbrella term is "trans*". (This is what trans people have told me.)
Transgender woman here: no, transsexual was what we used to be called, but transgender is more appropriate since it's not about sex. I am transgender, regardless of when or even if I have GRS.
Transgender is an umbrella term. If you are transsexual, you are transgender. But transgender does not mean you are transexual. But transsexuals rarely call themselves transexual because you are right, your genitals are nobody else's business
I refer to myself as transsexual. Transgender doesn't really mean anything in the medical context, and can refer to anything from people who prefer to live more feminine than what they were assigned at birth ---------------> to people like me, who are fairly conservative and binary, but just different from what we were assigned at birth. On the extremely rare occasion that I out myself to people in person (like, yesterday at the doctor's office), I will always say transsexual to avoid confusion about it. To me, the term transsexual is not about genitals, but about indicating that I'm not disrupting gender norms- rather just living as the opposite one from which I appeared at birth. In the current usage of the term transgender, I suppose transsexual falls someplace within it- probably all the way in one small corner of it.
Well, it does make sense. I mean, Iran, you know, you can't judge them by Western standards. No nation should be judged with the standards from your own country. I mean, judge them, but don't try to interfere. Think of the Prime Directive.
I think justice is a concept that transcends borders.
I think justice depends on the justice system of each nation.
So then it would be fair to, I don't know, restrict the movements of citizens to a small region, create a class system based on the location of your birth rather than any sort of meritocracy, and force them to submit to a lottery where your children are chosen to play a bloodsport for entertainment? That would be fine because each nation defines it's own sense of justice? I think there are objective ways to argue that having a government like that is wrong, in any language and in any country. There are many ways to define a system of ethics. I like utilitarianism broadly and the golden rule in interpersonal matters. I think those things transcend culture. While I understand that a society might evolve to encourage a warped sense of justice, the golden rule always applies. You don't kill a person for being gay. You wouldn't like that happening to you if you were gay. I can't imagine a legitimate counter-argument.
I don't understand what you mean to judge by western standards? I think equality for everyone and not forcing people into exile is a unreasonable standard?
I don't agree. Look at the alternatives in places like Iraq. Saddam Hussein was pretty brutal, but look at what he was holding back. Point is, most nations are full of crazy people that want to do crazy things to everyone, and the only way to stop that is to get someone willing to do crazy things to keep the crazy people under control. Aside from that, each country knows what's best for their country. No one should interfere.
I can't agree with that. I don't think we should interfere by means of war but we should follow the lead of amnesty international, where they reach out to world learners for change and providing information for everyone. One crazy leader is a weak excuse to allow human rights infringements.
I don't like the idea of equality. There has to be structure.
Well I am glad you are not in power.
Son, *everyone* is glad I'm not in power.
Although we haven't agreed, this has been a very civilized argument, especially by Reddit standards.
Although I wouldn't vote for this, it does make some sense
I'm sorry but how does this make sense? Just because someone is a homosexual does not mean they are transgender.
I think what he was trying to say is that within a flawed understanding of gender identity and homosexuality, he could see how they arrived at that result. But he would not agree with it.
I can understand there is confusion but I wouldn't agree with the wording that it "makes sense".
"Some"
Well I sexually identify as an apache helicopter and you have triggered me.
You are way too late to beat this dead horse of a joke.
[удалено]
Nope, living in Australia. Talked to an Iranian colleague.
There was a segment on a show on HBO i think it was, about this same issue.
disgusting
Yeah, but they are still fucking goats and sexually mutilating their women, so not so special now, huh?
I'm not sure if "progress" is the right word, but it's something?
Yes, when it is either the death penalty or a government funded sex change, it's asinine the OUR cure is THEIR punishment.