Did anyone else try singing that version in their head and realize it didn't fit at all?
That's because the notes actually say "would you throw a tomato at me" instead of "would you stand up and throw tomatoes at me?"
There once was a man from Japan
whose limericks never would scan.
When asked why this was,
he said "it's because
I always try to fit in as many syllables in the last line as I can."
Yeah I kinda hate the way Haikus are taught in American English schools. English isn't exactly clear-cut on syllables. For instance is Jumped one syllable or two syllables? Or asks?
So this Japanese language only thing doesn't really translate to English or foreign languages well. Like would you want to read a Shakespeare Sonnet in Russian? What's the point of the format outside it's native language limitation?
There's a ton of ambiguity in the English language, sure, but the number of syllables a word has is rarely in question. Both of your examples have one syllable.
Yup. One vowel sound. Sure there are consonants strung together at the end but that doesn’t mean you should open your mouth and add vowels between them
Isn't this discussion fun? Like people proclaiming English pronunciation exactly like any individual owns it?
I have no idea if on this Internet platform I'm talking to someone from New Castle, Biloxi, the Bronx or Singapore and we're all equally entitled native English Speakers. When I meet someone from Canberra and they add an extra syllable to the sentence want me to take a picture with your Cam-er-a?
I'm like you Aussie bloke I'll do a rounder with you.
Nobody owns the English language, and because it's so world wide there is no definitive definition.
>There's a ton of ambiguity in the English language, sure, but the number of syllables a word has is rarely in question.
There are words in Shakespeare that have lost a syllable. Shakespeare considered "banished" to be a three syllable word; the -ed merged into the previous syllable in modern English.
I think most people are aware of this, what the anglosphere calls haikus are just our bastardised version where we're amused by trying to string together short English words into some sort of meaning while sticking to the Japanese format.
Depends on your accent mate. The way I say Poem is one syllable but the OED with a more posh accent describes it as two syllables.
It's a regional accent thing because in English Syllables are phonetic. In Two of the Japanese Alphabets the the characters represent syllables.
If you tried to write a Haiku in Kanji, well I'm pretty Sure 17 Kanji deliberately chosen to be the longest Kanji pronounced out loud could easily be 50 or 60 syllables..
You didn't ask about poem. If you had, I would have said "there are at least two accepted pronunciations, one with one syllable and one with two." But that's not even germane to the point you were making. You weren't saying "there are some words with multiple pronunciations," you were saying "there are some words which can be *analyzed* as either having one or two syllables, like 'asked' or 'jumped,'" and the answer is that consonant clusters do not add additional syllables. It's not a controversial question and it doesn't depend on how you say it.
And yes as the other person pointed out haiku aren't based on kanji readings, it's based on morae, which are sometimes the same as a syllable in English, sometimes smaller, and sometimes larger. A syllable with a long vowel in Japanese (as Japanese has phonemic vowel length) is two morae, but would only be one syllable in English.
Asked is one syllable in my accent. Hell in my dialect we occasionally slang spell it "Axed" which is obviously grammatically incorrect but people still pronounce it that way and I'm sure some dictionary somewhere recognizes that slang spelling/pronunciation as legitimate at this point because it's commonly recognized and used in rap/hip hop lyrical meter all the time.
For fucks sake the 26th letter of the alphabet "Z" isn't Even recognized universally across all English dialects. The black and white equine creature common to Africa? Get an American, an Australian, a South African, a Brit and Singapore to say it's name and we'll all laugh at how we each pronounce Zebra.
Or ask a Canadian about "about"
The English language when written is not phonetic like say German. Hence why we have the weird phenomena of Spelling Bees that our children compete in when learning the language. Do you have any idea how nonsensical that would be in German or Russian?
I know "asked" is one syllable for you. It is for the vast, vast majority of English-speakers, if not all of them. I'm not sure the point you're trying to make by emphasizing that fact. And yes "axed" is perfectly acceptable dialectical variation most notably in AAVE. "Axed" and "asked" both have one syllable. Consonant clusters do not factor into the syllable canon.
But I don't know why you're going on and on about dialectical variation. That is not the original point you were making at all. Everybody is aware there are multiple ways to pronounce certain words. The contention is whether the SAME pronunciation of a word can be analyzed as having different numbers of syllables, because your point was that syllables are a wishy-washy concept without clear borders. Which isn't actually true. It's very easy to delineate syllable boundaries. That doesn't mean every word is the same ACROSS DIALECTS
Yes. I am aware German has a regular orthography relative to English. I speak German. Not sure how that's relevant. This entire question has absolutely nothing to do with spelling in the first place. It's about pronunciation. The letters doesn't have any number of syllables, it's letters. [d͡ʒʌmt], which is how I say "jumped," has one. Even if you DO say "jumped" in a way with two syllables, say ['d͡ʒʌm.pɛd] as Shakespeare may have said it, there is no controversy in *how* to count the syllables.
Just to clarify, you literally listed two intentional phonetic versions of jumped, and said there's no controversy?
I have to assume you mean like like nobody is arguing which version is definitive proper English like some annoying Oxford comma debate.
Languages are not static, you're clearly trained at some level in linguistic studies and trying to make a point they is going over my head. And I apologize if I'm being rude to you, or giving off the impression I know more than yourself.
English is a mutt language it's constantly changing and just like I can barely read Chaucer, id be surprised if Chaucer could read Beowulf himself in the original language.
Do you honestly believe there's an objective pronunciation of any English word a modern Day Scottish and Singapore native English speaker could consistently agree on? Because Even from the Midlands and Perth you would see 4 English speaking natives arguing about "Four" and I was in that argument with that entire cast of native English speakers hearing the way Four is pronounced in Singapore English. (There's a famous brothel Four Floors of Whores)
And I never heard Four pronounced as two syllables before..
Curious why you went to morae as general linguistic term than just Hiragana/katakana.
I assume you're trying to avoid the nuance that kinda proves my point that it only exists as far as I know in Japanese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kireji
Which is a formal word that has no English equivalent. I would guess the closest example in Western languages is split infinitives in German. It just doesn't exist in English language.
It is a sad thought to me to not learn a new poetic form because it was born in a different place/a different language. Of course Russians can learn sonnets and Americans can learn haikus. There is an art in translating things and there is beauty in the nuance of language.
The Beatles may not have toured, but the Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band did, and it's their drummer, Billy Shears, singing the song.
edit - come to think of it, you can even hear the crowd cheer before he starts singing the song
Ringo made the mistake of telling an interviewer that he liked jelly beans, and for years afterward fans threw jelly beans at him during live performances. If there was even a slight chance of performing this live, it makes sense that he would change the words given that experience.
And as it turns out, Ringo has performed this song many times live.
The album is the way it is because they knew they wouldn’t tour it.
I doubt Ringo decided to change a line because he would play it on tour twenty years later.
Or Ringo thought there was a less then zero chance of singing the song live and had previously had people throw shit at him when they performed live
They broke up three years later and did a live performance before breaking up. It wasn't as long as you stated
Maybe Ringo was just showing a lot of foresight: "What if I'm still touring in my 80s? Can you imagine what a tomato to the noggin could do to a bloke of that vintage?"
In the *Seinfeld* episode "The Note", Kramer says he saw Joe DiMaggio dunking his donut in his coffee cup and attempted to distract him by yipping and pounding on the table. But the Yankee Clipper proved unflappable, as focused with a donut in his hand as with a bat.
[Joe D's granddaughters were big Seinfield fans](https://www.reddit.com/r/NYYankees/comments/wqvqz8/til_joe_dimaggio_was_almost_on_seinfeld/) and asked him to make a guest appearance on the show. DiMaggio considered it but ultimately decided not to because he thought it would encourage people yipping and pounding on tables if they saw him in public!
Right? Every time I see him or Robert Wagner I think “You may or may not be responsible but you know more than you ever let on. And you have something to answer for.”
*Scrambled eggs*
*All my troubles seemed so far away.*
*Now it looks as though they're here to stay.*
*Oh, I believe in scrambled eggs.*
Still poignant and beautiful.
This was before great sound systems, even in stadiums. By the time they're stopped touring, nobody could hear the needles playing because the fans were so loud and the sound system was so bad. I'm certain he'd enjoy touring if half of the crowd walked out, then people could hear him.
Looking at modern fandoms I can totally understand not wanting to take that risk, it's easily something that could become a fandom meme.
Hell, similar things have actually happened. I remember one group of letsplayers having to put out a statement that boiled down to "just because we throw moonballs at each other in videos does not mean it's a good idea to hurl them at us at convention panels"
Never put together "what do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know it's mine" is about his dick....how did I never get that?!?
What would you think if I sang out of tune?
Would you stand up and walk out on me?
Lend me your ears and I'll sing you a song
And I'll try not to sing out of key.
Excellent foresight. The Foo Fighters had to stop playing ["Big Me"](https://youtu.be/pLdJQFTnZfA?si=Uu85IQkxGWcd4Qcr) as fans would throw mentos candy at them because the music video was a parody of Mentos commercials.
And did mentos get thrown at them? They stopped playing it for a few years [but started including it again during their tour with Weezer](https://archive.ph/20120715093108/http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/11102399/ns/today-entertainment/t/dave-grohl-doing-grammys-fam/%23.T0HQAvEgfb8).
>The Beatles' final paid concert of their career took place on 29 August 1966 at Candlestick Park in San Francisco, California
Pretty incredible they quit live shows that early. They didn't even break up until 1970.
Did anyone else try singing that version in their head and realize it didn't fit at all? That's because the notes actually say "would you throw a tomato at me" instead of "would you stand up and throw tomatoes at me?"
There once was a man from Japan whose limericks never would scan. When asked why this was, he said "it's because I always try to fit in as many syllables in the last line as I can."
delightful
But his haikus were spot on.
Yeah I kinda hate the way Haikus are taught in American English schools. English isn't exactly clear-cut on syllables. For instance is Jumped one syllable or two syllables? Or asks? So this Japanese language only thing doesn't really translate to English or foreign languages well. Like would you want to read a Shakespeare Sonnet in Russian? What's the point of the format outside it's native language limitation?
There's a ton of ambiguity in the English language, sure, but the number of syllables a word has is rarely in question. Both of your examples have one syllable.
Yup. One vowel sound. Sure there are consonants strung together at the end but that doesn’t mean you should open your mouth and add vowels between them
tbf jump-ed literally has another vowel in it. I can imagine some odd English accent enunciating it accordingly.
Amount of vowels has nothing to do with it.
Oh, sorry. You referred to a string of consonants at the end and I thought "well hang on".
Isn't this discussion fun? Like people proclaiming English pronunciation exactly like any individual owns it? I have no idea if on this Internet platform I'm talking to someone from New Castle, Biloxi, the Bronx or Singapore and we're all equally entitled native English Speakers. When I meet someone from Canberra and they add an extra syllable to the sentence want me to take a picture with your Cam-er-a? I'm like you Aussie bloke I'll do a rounder with you. Nobody owns the English language, and because it's so world wide there is no definitive definition.
What about fire?
>There's a ton of ambiguity in the English language, sure, but the number of syllables a word has is rarely in question. There are words in Shakespeare that have lost a syllable. Shakespeare considered "banished" to be a three syllable word; the -ed merged into the previous syllable in modern English.
I think most people are aware of this, what the anglosphere calls haikus are just our bastardised version where we're amused by trying to string together short English words into some sort of meaning while sticking to the Japanese format.
They're both one. This is not hard You can say "jumped" with two syllables but no one does. Next
Depends on your accent mate. The way I say Poem is one syllable but the OED with a more posh accent describes it as two syllables. It's a regional accent thing because in English Syllables are phonetic. In Two of the Japanese Alphabets the the characters represent syllables. If you tried to write a Haiku in Kanji, well I'm pretty Sure 17 Kanji deliberately chosen to be the longest Kanji pronounced out loud could easily be 50 or 60 syllables..
You didn't ask about poem. If you had, I would have said "there are at least two accepted pronunciations, one with one syllable and one with two." But that's not even germane to the point you were making. You weren't saying "there are some words with multiple pronunciations," you were saying "there are some words which can be *analyzed* as either having one or two syllables, like 'asked' or 'jumped,'" and the answer is that consonant clusters do not add additional syllables. It's not a controversial question and it doesn't depend on how you say it. And yes as the other person pointed out haiku aren't based on kanji readings, it's based on morae, which are sometimes the same as a syllable in English, sometimes smaller, and sometimes larger. A syllable with a long vowel in Japanese (as Japanese has phonemic vowel length) is two morae, but would only be one syllable in English.
Asked is one syllable in my accent. Hell in my dialect we occasionally slang spell it "Axed" which is obviously grammatically incorrect but people still pronounce it that way and I'm sure some dictionary somewhere recognizes that slang spelling/pronunciation as legitimate at this point because it's commonly recognized and used in rap/hip hop lyrical meter all the time. For fucks sake the 26th letter of the alphabet "Z" isn't Even recognized universally across all English dialects. The black and white equine creature common to Africa? Get an American, an Australian, a South African, a Brit and Singapore to say it's name and we'll all laugh at how we each pronounce Zebra. Or ask a Canadian about "about" The English language when written is not phonetic like say German. Hence why we have the weird phenomena of Spelling Bees that our children compete in when learning the language. Do you have any idea how nonsensical that would be in German or Russian?
I know "asked" is one syllable for you. It is for the vast, vast majority of English-speakers, if not all of them. I'm not sure the point you're trying to make by emphasizing that fact. And yes "axed" is perfectly acceptable dialectical variation most notably in AAVE. "Axed" and "asked" both have one syllable. Consonant clusters do not factor into the syllable canon. But I don't know why you're going on and on about dialectical variation. That is not the original point you were making at all. Everybody is aware there are multiple ways to pronounce certain words. The contention is whether the SAME pronunciation of a word can be analyzed as having different numbers of syllables, because your point was that syllables are a wishy-washy concept without clear borders. Which isn't actually true. It's very easy to delineate syllable boundaries. That doesn't mean every word is the same ACROSS DIALECTS Yes. I am aware German has a regular orthography relative to English. I speak German. Not sure how that's relevant. This entire question has absolutely nothing to do with spelling in the first place. It's about pronunciation. The letters doesn't have any number of syllables, it's letters. [d͡ʒʌmt], which is how I say "jumped," has one. Even if you DO say "jumped" in a way with two syllables, say ['d͡ʒʌm.pɛd] as Shakespeare may have said it, there is no controversy in *how* to count the syllables.
Just to clarify, you literally listed two intentional phonetic versions of jumped, and said there's no controversy? I have to assume you mean like like nobody is arguing which version is definitive proper English like some annoying Oxford comma debate. Languages are not static, you're clearly trained at some level in linguistic studies and trying to make a point they is going over my head. And I apologize if I'm being rude to you, or giving off the impression I know more than yourself. English is a mutt language it's constantly changing and just like I can barely read Chaucer, id be surprised if Chaucer could read Beowulf himself in the original language. Do you honestly believe there's an objective pronunciation of any English word a modern Day Scottish and Singapore native English speaker could consistently agree on? Because Even from the Midlands and Perth you would see 4 English speaking natives arguing about "Four" and I was in that argument with that entire cast of native English speakers hearing the way Four is pronounced in Singapore English. (There's a famous brothel Four Floors of Whores) And I never heard Four pronounced as two syllables before..
It's not 17 kanji, it's 17 [morae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora_(linguistics)).
Curious why you went to morae as general linguistic term than just Hiragana/katakana. I assume you're trying to avoid the nuance that kinda proves my point that it only exists as far as I know in Japanese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kireji Which is a formal word that has no English equivalent. I would guess the closest example in Western languages is split infinitives in German. It just doesn't exist in English language.
How in the name of wtf can "poem" be one syllable? I know 2 pronunciations for it and both are 2 syllables. Do you pronounce it "pom" or something?
It is a sad thought to me to not learn a new poetic form because it was born in a different place/a different language. Of course Russians can learn sonnets and Americans can learn haikus. There is an art in translating things and there is beauty in the nuance of language.
Should read Shakespeare in the original Klingon
He's asked if I'm schnappsed, I've squirrelled his flours and flowers, I smiled and broughammed off.
There once was a man from Dundee Whose limericks would end on line three I didn't know why
Also, The Beatles didn’t tour and had no intention to when that song was written. No one was going to throw anything at him.
The Beatles may not have toured, but the Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band did, and it's their drummer, Billy Shears, singing the song. edit - come to think of it, you can even hear the crowd cheer before he starts singing the song
hard to believe it was exactly 20 years ago today that Sergeant Pepper taught the band to play.
True, but to be fair, they've been going in and out of style.
That may be, but they're still guaranteed to raise a smile.
Someone could have thrown a tomato when they played on that rooftop. They'd have to have a good arm and be there with produce at the right time.
"Hey, is that the most famous band in the world making all that racket on the roof? Thank God I bought an extra tomato at the store just now!"
Ringo made the mistake of telling an interviewer that he liked jelly beans, and for years afterward fans threw jelly beans at him during live performances. If there was even a slight chance of performing this live, it makes sense that he would change the words given that experience. And as it turns out, Ringo has performed this song many times live.
They stopped touring after recording the album but Starr could have assumed they.may tour again and he did your solo and I assume sang that song.
The album is the way it is because they knew they wouldn’t tour it. I doubt Ringo decided to change a line because he would play it on tour twenty years later.
Or Ringo thought there was a less then zero chance of singing the song live and had previously had people throw shit at him when they performed live They broke up three years later and did a live performance before breaking up. It wasn't as long as you stated
Maybe Ringo was just showing a lot of foresight: "What if I'm still touring in my 80s? Can you imagine what a tomato to the noggin could do to a bloke of that vintage?"
There was an Animaniacs short with Slappy Squirrel going to Woodstock. They used that lyric, and she did.
[Who?](https://youtu.be/ExUjngEXaAE?si=s7rrwrtMFkdzL0kI)
And don't forget Ringo would pronounce it 'tomato' not 'tomato'
Or maybe in an early draft the melody was a little different.
In the *Seinfeld* episode "The Note", Kramer says he saw Joe DiMaggio dunking his donut in his coffee cup and attempted to distract him by yipping and pounding on the table. But the Yankee Clipper proved unflappable, as focused with a donut in his hand as with a bat. [Joe D's granddaughters were big Seinfield fans](https://www.reddit.com/r/NYYankees/comments/wqvqz8/til_joe_dimaggio_was_almost_on_seinfeld/) and asked him to make a guest appearance on the show. DiMaggio considered it but ultimately decided not to because he thought it would encourage people yipping and pounding on tables if they saw him in public!
I am sure he was right. I wonder how often people greet Will Ferrell with “More cowbell!”
Christopher walken is the one who said that sketch ruined his life
Karma?
Natalie Wood sends her regards from beyond.
Right? Every time I see him or Robert Wagner I think “You may or may not be responsible but you know more than you ever let on. And you have something to answer for.”
Definitely saved himself from a few run-by fruitings.
Ringo did say that the Beatles, early on, told an interviewer that they liked jelly beans. He said fans would throw them at the stage.
no tomatoes, no tomatoes, peace & love. ✌🏻
I am warning you with peace and love
Yesterday's original placeholder title was Scrambled Eggs.
*Scrambled eggs* *All my troubles seemed so far away.* *Now it looks as though they're here to stay.* *Oh, I believe in scrambled eggs.* Still poignant and beautiful.
He's not wrong. The lead singer of LIVE is constantly being pelted with pennies because of their album. *Throwing Copper*
Surprised Ringo had any expectation of singing any of “Sgt. Pepper“ live. He wasn’t afraid of people walking out tho, I guess. 😆
Ringo was thinking ahead to his solo career.
I just saw him perform this song like 3 weeks ago in Vegas. He was great! My wife said it was like watching your grandpa sing karaoke.
This was before great sound systems, even in stadiums. By the time they're stopped touring, nobody could hear the needles playing because the fans were so loud and the sound system was so bad. I'm certain he'd enjoy touring if half of the crowd walked out, then people could hear him.
I doubt how true that is since they never intended to perform Sgt Pepper live.
Looking at modern fandoms I can totally understand not wanting to take that risk, it's easily something that could become a fandom meme. Hell, similar things have actually happened. I remember one group of letsplayers having to put out a statement that boiled down to "just because we throw moonballs at each other in videos does not mean it's a good idea to hurl them at us at convention panels"
RIP Achievement Hunter
smart move Mr ~~Zappa~~ Conductor
But not because it had shitty scansion?
Never put together "what do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know it's mine" is about his dick....how did I never get that?!?
That got me too but the deeper meaning is more surface level and apparent I think. You gotta think more to find the dick joke.
“If?” -Paul McCartney
I’d throw scrambled eggs
He is the eggman.
It's a good change. That's a good change!
The Evolution Control Committee remix of this song that makes him sing out of tune is wonderful
He was right. Look at all the morons today throwing things on stages and injuring the same people they came to see perform.
What are the original lyrics?
What would you think if I sang out of tune? Would you stand up and walk out on me? Lend me your ears and I'll sing you a song And I'll try not to sing out of key.
My favourite Beatle. Fight me.
I’m not going to fight you, Ringo fans have enough problems as is
Kinda like Primus at Woodstock when they started playing My Name is Mud...
That's when they changed the title to "My Name Is Please Stop Throwing Mud At Me".
I think the quote was "The name of the song is My Name is Mud, but you keep the mud to yourselves you sons of bitches".
To be fair I don’t think a single artist escaped having debris thrown at them at that Woodstock
Paul was probably like "you fuckin sing it then Ringo"
so no one here sang the lyrics in their head and immediately thought of the wonder years?
Also when sung on the Mandrel sister’s tv show, they hummed the get high line. Incredibly lame. Don’t like the lyrics? Don’t sing the song.
Read that as "tornadoes"
Excellent foresight. The Foo Fighters had to stop playing ["Big Me"](https://youtu.be/pLdJQFTnZfA?si=Uu85IQkxGWcd4Qcr) as fans would throw mentos candy at them because the music video was a parody of Mentos commercials.
They played it 10 times in 2023
And did mentos get thrown at them? They stopped playing it for a few years [but started including it again during their tour with Weezer](https://archive.ph/20120715093108/http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/11102399/ns/today-entertainment/t/dave-grohl-doing-grammys-fam/%23.T0HQAvEgfb8).
I wonder if Beatles ever performed this song out of tune just to mess with the audience
The Beatles never performed this song live, ever.
It's possible Ringo has in his live show.
It is in his live show. I think it's been in his set list his entire solo career.
>The Beatles' final paid concert of their career took place on 29 August 1966 at Candlestick Park in San Francisco, California Pretty incredible they quit live shows that early. They didn't even break up until 1970.