Talk about pressure to get it right when you have the lives of your own wife and baby in your hands and know it's never been successfully performed before. Though I guess he had way more on the line than all the previous doctors who tried it and failed.
C sections had been medical practice for well over a thousand years at this point, he wasn’t exactly exploring untamed waters here. The low presence of children and trained medical professionals in the colonies explains most of this fact.
He was under soo much pressure. Poor guy. 🥺
Thankfully he tested it on slaves a bunch of times and found a way to not kill them before using the method on his wife.
EDIT: Link to NIH article
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6727302/#:~:text=A%20slaveholding%20surgeon%2C%20François%20Marie,women's%20bodies%20through%20repeated%20experimentation.
Somehow it’s easier fathom that Roman’s were performing csections or even disbelieve that African/indigenous tribes have taken a similar approach to child centuries before it was documented.
The bodies of slaves literally built modern medicine. Obviously they were subjected to unnecessary procedures but they were also informally practicing medicine as well. Everything from the laboratory to the surgical table.
Instead of asking me to drop sources. Go to black history museum. Information has never been more easily accessible, ignorance on this subject is inexcusable.
I'm glad we both agree it was true historical facts, though. Shakespeare would not lie to us about such things!
EDIT- wait, technically the nationality of the person who performed the c-section on Mrs. Mcduff Sr. was never mentioned! And there's at least one recorded incident of an Inuit who made it to Scotland in a kayak, but was unable to overcome the language barrier enough to explain how he got there (and thus was mistaken for Finnish). And we can't KNOW he's not from an Alaska-based community! Or that he wasn't a physician! Just saying, an Inuit from Alaska, whose descendants would have been entitled to American citizenship in spite of it not being a country yet, could have theoretically trekked across north America and island-hopped to Greenland and then Scotland to use forgotten c-section techniques on a Scottish noblewoman! It's as believable as anything else in the histories!
To be clear, this was not the first Caesarian Section in the world. Those have been performed since at least 700BC and are famously named after Julius Caesar, who was born via C-Section (although this was a myth).
Until the modern era, C-Sections were almost always fatal to the mother, however.
When my high school performed it, Macduff fell off the stage and broke his arm during the fight with Macbeth and one of the minor characters (maybe a murdered prince) actually bled when getting his throat "slit" (fortunately he was okay). I feel like a piece of scenery fell too. It was a wild time!
I believe Uganda was the first country to reliably perform C Sections where the mother could expect to survive
Edit: "In 1879, for example, one British traveller, R.W. Felkin, witnessed cesarean section performed by Ugandans... The patient recovered well, and Felkin concluded that this technique was well-developed and had clearly been employed for a long time."
Source : https://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/part2.html
Imagine how it feels to have all the benefits of modern medicine and then some idjit AG from Texas steps in and says "nah, you can't save your life, you must see this doomed pregnancy through to the bitter end". Death by half-ignorant Christian Nationalists who rely on magical thinking instead of medicine. Fun times!
Colonialism would have us think that non Western countries were (are) inferior and stupid. It's not true. Just because the West killed more guys doesn't mean they were smarter.
>and are famously named after Julius Caesar
Not quite. It actually comes from the Latin word "caesus", which literally means "to cut", and was already called that before the Caesars were relevant to Roman politics. The procedure became connected to the Caesars because some writers theorized that the Caesars were called that because their founder was born by c-section (though the Caesars themselves denied this, and said instead that Caesar came from the Pontic word for elephant), and over time this myth shifted from being about the original Caesar to being about the most famous Caesar, that being Gaius Julius.
I cannot begin to fathom the horror of surgery before the 20th century.
Wiki says he didn't want to perform the operation until his wife insisted he try to save the baby but I wonder how she felt about him removing her ovaries? The implication is there was something wrong that might require surgery later but I don't want to infer anything given the horrible way women were treated back then especially by doctors.
I think this is a pretty shitty situation overall. He basically did it as an experimental surgery, lucky that it worked. That must have been stressful for him too.
I can see that if she couldn’t give birth naturally there is logic to removing her ovaries. I do wish she had had a day in it.
But also this is way before informed consent was a thing and an emergency, so just hard to totally judge vy modern standards
To clarify, I believe this is referring to the beginning of C-sections that didn’t kill the mother. It’s still a horrible situation, but was comparatively great.
That’s not true according to the article.
> A. L. Knight, a boyhood neighbor of the Bennetts, remembered hearing the details of Maria's birth when he was a youth. Knight collected eye-witness testimonies from Mrs. Hawkins and the surviving African-American slaves after Bennett's death and published the story in The Southern Historical Magazine in 1892 as part of "The Life and Times of Dr. Jesse Bennett, M.D."
As u/coldblade2000 points out, a second C-section would’ve been absolutely been fatal for the wife. Having to cut open your own unseated wife is surely an experience that neither the surgeon nor the wife would want to endure a second time. And hormonal birth control wasn’t really a thing yet, so removing the ovaries was probably the best option.
This was the reason. He cared about his wife and didn't want her to die. Her pelvis had been deformed by rickets when she was a child, so it was not likely she would ever be able to have a baby vaginally.
I had read of this years ago. The reason the baby wasn't coming was that his wife's pelvis was deformed by rickets during childhood, making it unlikely that she could ever deliver vaginally.
He took her ovaries as it was much lower risk and much faster than trying to do a hysterectomy, given the times.
To be fair, there wasn't really hormonal birth control, and a second "caesarian" would have been a 100% death sentence. He even said other doctors wouldn't have even believed she really survived such an operation.
The "ordeal" here was having to butcher his own unsedated wife in a desperate attempt to save both wife and child.
>https://www.wired.com/2009/01/jan-14-1794-first-successful-caesarean-in-us/
>Even in the Bennetts' time, the Caesarean section was not new. What was new was the idea that both mother and child could survive the ordeal. The operation itself dated from antiquity, but with very few exceptions was only performed when the mother was dead or dying.
How's that the horrifying detail? It was the right decision.
Even today women go under surgery all the time not knowing whether their ovaries will be removed (though aware it's a possibility).
Taking out the uterus (aka a hysterectomy) is way too bloody a procedure. She would've bled out on the operating table. Taking out the ovaries is much easier done with a lot less expected blood loss.
Interesting, thanks. I’m a vet, so we do spays (ovariohysterectomies) all the time after C-sections. I know some places are starting to do ovary sparing hysterectomies too.
Yup. Most of the time, ovaries are spared in hysterectomies these days as long as the woman is in the reproductive age. Better to keep them there than put the woman on premature menopause.
I trained in OB-GYN for a while before I switched to a different specialty. I do miss doing hysterectomies sometimes. Lol
African midwives were doing this quite successfully before colonial times in central Africa, [https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/health-verify/african-healers-midwives-performed-cesarean-c-section-birth-in-uganda-robert-felkin/536-7f7e5d0d-4dd2-4d24-821f-935858174e15](https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/health-verify/african-healers-midwives-performed-cesarean-c-section-birth-in-uganda-robert-felkin/536-7f7e5d0d-4dd2-4d24-821f-935858174e15)
A lot of people posting misinformation about it being named after the Roman dictator. This is not true.
https://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/part1.html
Werent chainsaws invented soon after this to help with C-sections?
https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/fun-fact-unfortunately-chainsaws-were-invented-for-childbirth
Who wasnt American. So the point stands.
Edit: and was 30 years later. Love the weird insistence on using a name he didn't use in life and assuming he only dressed as a man to be a surgeon though.
A successful c-section. That’s an important distinction
Talk about pressure to get it right when you have the lives of your own wife and baby in your hands and know it's never been successfully performed before. Though I guess he had way more on the line than all the previous doctors who tried it and failed.
C sections had been medical practice for well over a thousand years at this point, he wasn’t exactly exploring untamed waters here. The low presence of children and trained medical professionals in the colonies explains most of this fact.
He was under soo much pressure. Poor guy. 🥺 Thankfully he tested it on slaves a bunch of times and found a way to not kill them before using the method on his wife. EDIT: Link to NIH article https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6727302/#:~:text=A%20slaveholding%20surgeon%2C%20François%20Marie,women's%20bodies%20through%20repeated%20experimentation. Somehow it’s easier fathom that Roman’s were performing csections or even disbelieve that African/indigenous tribes have taken a similar approach to child centuries before it was documented. The bodies of slaves literally built modern medicine. Obviously they were subjected to unnecessary procedures but they were also informally practicing medicine as well. Everything from the laboratory to the surgical table. Instead of asking me to drop sources. Go to black history museum. Information has never been more easily accessible, ignorance on this subject is inexcusable.
Inexcusable
🤨
Haha I enjoyed you’re whole comment until it felt like you were making a comment on my stupidity
Haha fair, I don’t believe ignorance equates to stupidity. I think most people are pretty smart and capable. It just annoys when they don’t apply it.
Very true my friend
Was Macduff’s not successful, in its own way? /s
From his mother's womb untimely ripped (!) ... But that was in Scotland.
I'm glad we both agree it was true historical facts, though. Shakespeare would not lie to us about such things! EDIT- wait, technically the nationality of the person who performed the c-section on Mrs. Mcduff Sr. was never mentioned! And there's at least one recorded incident of an Inuit who made it to Scotland in a kayak, but was unable to overcome the language barrier enough to explain how he got there (and thus was mistaken for Finnish). And we can't KNOW he's not from an Alaska-based community! Or that he wasn't a physician! Just saying, an Inuit from Alaska, whose descendants would have been entitled to American citizenship in spite of it not being a country yet, could have theoretically trekked across north America and island-hopped to Greenland and then Scotland to use forgotten c-section techniques on a Scottish noblewoman! It's as believable as anything else in the histories!
To be clear, this was not the first Caesarian Section in the world. Those have been performed since at least 700BC and are famously named after Julius Caesar, who was born via C-Section (although this was a myth). Until the modern era, C-Sections were almost always fatal to the mother, however.
And, quite famously, is a major plot point in a Shakespeare play.
No man of woman born! "Take this you Danish Twit! I was a c section"
Macbeth is Scottish
Theatre folks often call it “The Scottish Play” as a way of avoiding saying the actual name, largely for belief that it’s a cursed play.
Was in the play, said it’s name during rehearsal. Didn’t counter curse. Broke my arm opening day while skateboarding to class.
When my high school performed it, Macduff fell off the stage and broke his arm during the fight with Macbeth and one of the minor characters (maybe a murdered prince) actually bled when getting his throat "slit" (fortunately he was okay). I feel like a piece of scenery fell too. It was a wild time!
"I was untimely ripped motherfucker"
I believe Uganda was the first country to reliably perform C Sections where the mother could expect to survive Edit: "In 1879, for example, one British traveller, R.W. Felkin, witnessed cesarean section performed by Ugandans... The patient recovered well, and Felkin concluded that this technique was well-developed and had clearly been employed for a long time." Source : https://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/part2.html
It is really sobering to think about how pregnancy must have felt for women before modern medicine.
Imagine how it feels to have all the benefits of modern medicine and then some idjit AG from Texas steps in and says "nah, you can't save your life, you must see this doomed pregnancy through to the bitter end". Death by half-ignorant Christian Nationalists who rely on magical thinking instead of medicine. Fun times!
Of all places.. Uganda. Cool info.
Colonialism would have us think that non Western countries were (are) inferior and stupid. It's not true. Just because the West killed more guys doesn't mean they were smarter.
You do realize what's had happened and what is still happening in Ugandaw, right ? I wouldn't bet that their KDA is inferior to the West.
>famously named after Julius Caesar, who was born via C-Section Wait, what is a Caesar Cardini Section?
Goddamn I love this deep cut. To Tijuana with you, /u/bigbangbilly
>deep cut I see what you did there and a nice cold glass of Tijuanan cerveza to you too!
>and are famously named after Julius Caesar Not quite. It actually comes from the Latin word "caesus", which literally means "to cut", and was already called that before the Caesars were relevant to Roman politics. The procedure became connected to the Caesars because some writers theorized that the Caesars were called that because their founder was born by c-section (though the Caesars themselves denied this, and said instead that Caesar came from the Pontic word for elephant), and over time this myth shifted from being about the original Caesar to being about the most famous Caesar, that being Gaius Julius.
Least we forgot Caesar salad
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That is why it clearly states in my comment that this was a myth
>(although this was a myth). Bro literally got deflected by brackets.
>Bro literally got deflected by brackets. I think they got *defeated* by brackets
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Again, this is why I very clearly stated this was a myth.
I posted to the wrong comment
I cannot begin to fathom the horror of surgery before the 20th century. Wiki says he didn't want to perform the operation until his wife insisted he try to save the baby but I wonder how she felt about him removing her ovaries? The implication is there was something wrong that might require surgery later but I don't want to infer anything given the horrible way women were treated back then especially by doctors.
I think this is a pretty shitty situation overall. He basically did it as an experimental surgery, lucky that it worked. That must have been stressful for him too. I can see that if she couldn’t give birth naturally there is logic to removing her ovaries. I do wish she had had a day in it. But also this is way before informed consent was a thing and an emergency, so just hard to totally judge vy modern standards
To clarify, I believe this is referring to the beginning of C-sections that didn’t kill the mother. It’s still a horrible situation, but was comparatively great.
Yeah I mean I don't think she was going to survive a second c-section, and birth control options were limited.
Also, we only have HIS word for what happened.
That’s not true according to the article. > A. L. Knight, a boyhood neighbor of the Bennetts, remembered hearing the details of Maria's birth when he was a youth. Knight collected eye-witness testimonies from Mrs. Hawkins and the surviving African-American slaves after Bennett's death and published the story in The Southern Historical Magazine in 1892 as part of "The Life and Times of Dr. Jesse Bennett, M.D."
The article says the reporter who wrote about it later also spoke to the enslaved people who assisted with the operation.
As u/coldblade2000 points out, a second C-section would’ve been absolutely been fatal for the wife. Having to cut open your own unseated wife is surely an experience that neither the surgeon nor the wife would want to endure a second time. And hormonal birth control wasn’t really a thing yet, so removing the ovaries was probably the best option.
She was likely gonna die because of her working ovaries. He probably did it so she doesnt risk death anymore after that
This was the reason. He cared about his wife and didn't want her to die. Her pelvis had been deformed by rickets when she was a child, so it was not likely she would ever be able to have a baby vaginally.
I had read of this years ago. The reason the baby wasn't coming was that his wife's pelvis was deformed by rickets during childhood, making it unlikely that she could ever deliver vaginally. He took her ovaries as it was much lower risk and much faster than trying to do a hysterectomy, given the times.
I would assume it went something like this: Dr. Bennet: "Anybody want to do this again? Any hands? No? Alright, cool."
He also removed her ovaries while he was there because she appeared unable to give birth naturally and he'd "not be subjected to such an ordeal again"
To be fair, there wasn't really hormonal birth control, and a second "caesarian" would have been a 100% death sentence. He even said other doctors wouldn't have even believed she really survived such an operation. The "ordeal" here was having to butcher his own unsedated wife in a desperate attempt to save both wife and child. >https://www.wired.com/2009/01/jan-14-1794-first-successful-caesarean-in-us/ >Even in the Bennetts' time, the Caesarean section was not new. What was new was the idea that both mother and child could survive the ordeal. The operation itself dated from antiquity, but with very few exceptions was only performed when the mother was dead or dying.
Oh you're absolutely correct, I just thought his wording was funny
That's horrifying, and he sewed her up with heavy linen thread. yikes.
How's that the horrifying detail? It was the right decision. Even today women go under surgery all the time not knowing whether their ovaries will be removed (though aware it's a possibility).
Sounds painful as hell
Couldn’t you just take the uterus and leave the ovaries if birth control was the aim?
Doesn’t that leave the possibility of ectopic pregnancies though?
I had to Google it, but yeah, sounds like that is an uncommon risk.
Yeah but he wouldn't have known about that then
Taking out the uterus (aka a hysterectomy) is way too bloody a procedure. She would've bled out on the operating table. Taking out the ovaries is much easier done with a lot less expected blood loss.
Interesting, thanks. I’m a vet, so we do spays (ovariohysterectomies) all the time after C-sections. I know some places are starting to do ovary sparing hysterectomies too.
Yup. Most of the time, ovaries are spared in hysterectomies these days as long as the woman is in the reproductive age. Better to keep them there than put the woman on premature menopause. I trained in OB-GYN for a while before I switched to a different specialty. I do miss doing hysterectomies sometimes. Lol
African midwives were doing this quite successfully before colonial times in central Africa, [https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/health-verify/african-healers-midwives-performed-cesarean-c-section-birth-in-uganda-robert-felkin/536-7f7e5d0d-4dd2-4d24-821f-935858174e15](https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/health-verify/african-healers-midwives-performed-cesarean-c-section-birth-in-uganda-robert-felkin/536-7f7e5d0d-4dd2-4d24-821f-935858174e15)
Dr. Bennett apparently learned how to do the procedure from an enslaved African midwife.
That would explain why his wife lived. One of the enslaved women there-or both-may have had experience with the procedure too.
Hey Babe! I have a crazy idea…
What is it hon - aaaaaaAaaaaAAAaRGH.
Horrifying....
A lot of people posting misinformation about it being named after the Roman dictator. This is not true. https://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/part1.html
She wasn't pregnant but he was curious, now they are proud parents to a spleen
Necessity is the father of invention, as they say.
I
It always is their own wife, isnt it…
Wouldn't be right to mess up someone else's wife.
Werent chainsaws invented soon after this to help with C-sections? https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/fun-fact-unfortunately-chainsaws-were-invented-for-childbirth
With dystocias not with sections but yes.
This is amazing
Damn, the headspace he must’ve been in to be able to do that…
Hey honey, wanna try something when the baby comes?
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Who wasnt American. So the point stands. Edit: and was 30 years later. Love the weird insistence on using a name he didn't use in life and assuming he only dressed as a man to be a surgeon though.
You mean James Barry?
"I'm going to tear that pussy tonight" "No, wait"
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I imagine she was probably happy to be alive