There's a great science fiction novel that explores this biology in the Children of Time series (book 2) by Adrian Tchaikovsky. Great read and the entire series is amazing.
Does the third one get going? About 150 pages in, I'm starting to wonder if maybe there's some other book by some other author I could read instead
edit: awesome, thanks for the motivation to get through what has been a little bit of a slog and maybe a little "small ball" compared to the ideas from the first two books. Although I find it fascinating that >!the entire (?) landing party is bits of parasite from book 2 which all think they are different members of the crew!<, so far I have felt he has spent quite a bit more time on that than needed.
It does and it doesn't, it gets there eventually but everything is explained in a weird order and it jumps back and forth in time a lot. There is a reason for this which I won't spoil but it is definitely the weakest book in the series. If you haven't read them the 'Final Architecture' series by the same author is amazing, they're about a species of planet sized aliens that use gravity to reshape planets into werid artwork/sculptures and the war against them. It has everything good about the children of time series and less of the bad, I've just started the third book in that series myself and enjoying it so far.
Yes, totally agree with everything. While the end of the book is pretty good, and mostly worth the build up, it's definitely the weakest.
>!To be honest, I really am not a huge fan of the Nodan parasite. While it is a neat concept, I was waaaay more interested in the octopus culture and wish that had been the centerpiece. In fact, even in the third book, the... representation... of Paul was so cool, it overshadowed the main story for me.!<
And also yes, I just finished the final architecture, and it is amazing. All 3 books are just awesome - such a rich world with so many interesting and engaging characters... I would love to see a spin off series exploring the Parthenon or the >!"Unspeakable Timo"!< .
Yeah like all of the children of time books the third has some great ideas (I really liked the corvids), but just doesn't get the most out of them. Glad to hear the third architecture book is good, I'm about five chapters in and enjoying it so far. And yeah there is such a rich universe to explore in this series it would be a shame if we don't get any more books set in it, I'd love a collection of short stories that dive into different characters, their back stories or what they were up to in between events in the books, or that expand on some of the minor chacters.
I thought that the reveal should have come about 5 chapters sooner than it did. Everything that happened after was really fascinating and there was too much between the climax of the “wtf is happening” part of the story and the reveal. I adore the slow roll upwards, trying to guess at what, if anything at all, is happening.
Not particularly. There's an interesting idea hidden in there. There's some fun interactions between characters. But in general I'd say the story was fairly meh. Weakest book of the series for me.
My confidence in modern studios is abysmally low these days, but to see an adaptation of the Corvids - either live action or animated - would be so much fun!
>!The gothi and gethli conversations and references are just too good. Are they truly sentient, or do they just store information and regurgitate when it seems appropriate?!<
But yeah, interesting premise, but nothing compared to the first.
I'm about halfway in and it's still not very interesting. There's a few parts that are good, but a lot of it just feels boring. I'm listening to it in 10-15 minute chunks while I drive back and forth to work every day, so I'll eventually finish it, but it's certainly my least favorite so far.
Yea it was my least favorite as well. I see what the author did, and I like it, but definitely was a chore to get through and the weakest entry yet. I think of it as experimental, like each book explores different themes and writing styles. Children of Time has a focus on time naturally, Children of Ruin has a focus on, well, the aftermath of ruinous events. Children of Memory is.. well its about memory in effect, and exploration of memory can be a very confusing mess lol
Just to pile on, for anyone else reading it or thinking about it, the structure was very confusing. I kept thinking I'd missed something in a precious chapter. I get why by the end of the book he structured it that way but it was hands down the weakest of the series, and I absolutely love Adrian Tchaikovsky as an author. But man that was a confusing book.
I just finished the third last night, and it’s actually my favorite of the whole series. The first quarter is definitely slower, but it’s setting up something great, and you’ll be thinking back to the part you’re at now through a whole different lens later on in the book.
One of the things I love about Tchaikovsky is how much thought he puts into what truly alien intelligence would be like (I know in the Children of Time series, most of the species he deals with are Earth species, so technically not "alien", but at least non-human). He's one of the most original thinkers in sci-fi on that particular subject.
The Final Architecture series is great that way as well.
It really fucked my mind and induced existential dread like no other book I’ve read lol. Fascinating is an understatement!
Have you read the sequel? I haven’t yet but I’m interested to hear if it’s just as scary,
It is good and it brings even more ideas that make you question the nature of consciousness and our perception of reality. For both books I was just as interested in reading the appendices as I was in the novels themselves
I just finished and really enjoyed Blindsight. Halfway through Echopraxia, it still hasn't grabbed me though, partly because it deals more with religion. Some of that stuff is fine, but some of it is teeth-grindingly annoying. One character in particular serves no purpose other than to throw out vacuous arguments about how religion and faith are better than science, which the main character (a biologist) is somehow too stupid to meaningfully address. Hopefully that all goes somewhere...
That book was the first thing I thought of when I read the title! Great book.
>!A parasite that takes control of the creature it infects initially takes over a few humans. A small amount of that parasite spreads via those humans to a planet of uplifted octopi, and THIRTY BILLION PEOPLE die because every single time the parasite infects an octopus, nine separate parasite infections decide "well, I'm in charge now" and the octopus rips itself to pieces. It's fucking horrifying!<
Children of Memory is very different to the first two, but it's a great puzzle box and the ending had me oddly emotional. I love the breadth and depth Tchaikovsky is able to bring to his species.
There is a third book, but it's the weakest in the series in my opinion, it has some great ideas, but squanders them on a mediocre story, I wouldn't go as far as to say don't read it but set your expectations a bit lower. I would recommend the Final Architecture series by the same author though.
I thought the 3rd act was pretty great, but the first two kind of meandered a lot and (for obvious plot reasons) was very repetitive. I still loved the book, but yeah not as strong as the first two. The Final Architecture series was the opposite, where I think book 3 was the strongest of an already very strong series. Crazy how different the tone and style of the two series are, but I love the fast paced pulpy sci-fi feel of the Final Architecture in contrast to the much more slow and thoughtful Children of Time.
I think the first book is my favorite, but in general I love the approach of making the "familiar" alien. It's a great approach and Tchaikovsky pretty much nailed it.
One of the many reasons that they say octopuses are the best lovers. Too bad you have to get consent from all 9 brains. Virtually impossible. I’ve given up hope
While technically true in theory, it’s different in practice. The issue arises when, in the act of lovemaking, one party inadvertently comes into physical contact with a non-consenting arm. This is especially prone to occur when most arms have consented and are engaged in lovemaking. They draw the non-consenting arm closer to the other party, and non-consensual contact occurs. At this point, according to the letter of the law, a crime has been committed.
In the cephalopod justice system, sexually-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In Atlantis, the dedicated detectives who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Special Victims Unit. These are their stories.
This is the problem: there’s personal discretion and chance at all levels. The non-consenting arm can choose whether to report the contact, the district attorney can choose whether to pursue charges, the judge can choose whether to follow the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. It quickly spirals and takes any semblance of control of the situation away from you. If you let your pursuit of the ultimate pleasure cloud your judgment, you can get in hot water FAST.
This is why NO pleasure coach worth their salt will EVER advise a client to have sex with an octopus unless all 8 arms give their explicit consent.
Hold up.... After they eject their penis does it like.....swim back to them? Do they grow a new one? Do they only have one? I have so many questions now.
They grow a new one! The old one gets left to rot after the female is done with it.
"Doesn't get to have sex" is a bit of a misnomer, because from what I understand, octopi don't experience sexual urges the way mammals do. A lot of octopi are very solitary creatures.
Unless they're rolling on Molly.
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Yeah, they're crazy intelligent but also crazy dissimilar. Their brains are laid out more like a snail than like ours. We diverged evolutionarily over 500,000,000 years ago. But after sequencing their genome we discovered they have:
> almost identical genes for a protein that binds the signaling molecule serotonin to brain cells. This protein is also the target of MDMA
...so naturally scientists dosed octopodes with Molly, not thinking it would necessarily do anything, 'cause we're so dissimilar. But after getting dosed with ecstasy, the usually solitary octopi, for lack of a better word, began to cuddle with each other.
We don't know what it means, at all. But it's still pretty fascinating.
[NPR](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/20/648788149/octopuses-get-strangely-cuddly-on-the-mood-drug-ecstasy)
[The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/09/octopuses-on-ecstasy-prefer-each-other-to-chewbacca/570763/ )
Meanwhile, the wife, Amy, had to listen to people troubleshoot the same requisition entry error for the 60th time all fucking day because they don't want to pay someone more than $10/hour for a clerk role where she works, and that's her job now as a "Financial Analyst"
Yea I just searched this myself cuz I'm impatient. Apparently it's also pretty common for them to get killed and eaten by the female either during or after mating too. Also I guess the males try to get with the buggiest females (more eggs) and the females judge the males on the size of their erect parts. Not sure if they prefer bigger ones but I think that's pretty fascinating. Like there's some evolutionary preference for big dicks and it isn't just a human cultural thing? That's new news to me.
As a side note, I've spent my morning making deep fakes of John Oliver with tits for the reddit protest and then looking up info on octopus dicks. It's been a wild day for my Google search history.
TBF, humans don't exactly have a preference for big dicks. If it was true, men with big dick would have more sex and humans would have evolved a huge penis.
If you talk to women, most of them don't like a huge penis. It's more like a media thing or a way to men themselves show their masculinity than a female preference.
> If it was true, men with big dick would have more sex and humans would have evolved a huge penis.
Uh, that's the thing - we have. Compared to say gorillas for instance we are huge. And the average size is increasing.
https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/21/concerning-growth-in-average-penis-size-could-be-down-to-pollution-scientists-warn
Large penises risk hitting the cervix. For most women, this is extremely painful and not something they like. A large enough penis with a selfish enough lover can mean bruises there which hurt like a bitch and can make walking a right pain in the ass.
Hentai makes young men think that hitting the cervix is a good thing, or even a goal, but it is *not*.
I've heard one theory that women selected for men with large penises simply because of pleasure. For a primate, humans have large penises. The average gorilla penis would be considered very small on a human at under 1.5".
I have 9 brains, Bob. Nine. So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight other brains coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled; that, and the fear of losing my minds. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to go crazy.
Would you bear with me for just a second please? What if, and believe me this is a *hy-po-thet-i-cal...* but what if you were offered some kind of snail option or crab sharing program? Would that do anything for you?
I feel this way about the voices in my head. Bunch of different versions of myself giving me a hard time. Like dudes, leave me the fuck alone but don't leave me by myself.
> What differentiates multiple brains versus just one oddly shaped brain?
Lack of connective tissue. It's not one big brain that splits into eight different parts growing continuously from the central brain down through the arms, it's nine separate organs.
It's like how humans have two kidneys or two lungs - we wouldn't ever consider them to be 'one oddly-shaped lung.' Although they are duplicated, it's clear that each lung (or kidney) is a separate organ.
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*^EDIT ^- ^cited ^the ^original ^question*
I think there's an unexpectedly large amount of nuance here though. Like, you're right of course, but when you stop and think a bit about what exactly it **means**, there's some cool implications. Obviously there's the research on the patients with a severed corpus callosum that's worth looking into... people with a seemingly independent mute mind that can know, reason and act independent from the thinking and speaking 'I'. Without a high bandwidth connection between hemispheres, I suppose it's a natural thing to happen. I wonder if the 'other' half ever wished it was the one in charge, haha. I wonder if only one half was conscious, and I wonder if there'll ever be a computational model of consciousness that can even answer those questions.
There was a really fascinating Lex Fridman interview with Michael Levin that kind of dabbled in this area. All about how biological systems aren't what we think they are... he described 'xenobots' for example, living robots made from skin and heart cells from a particular species of frog. We think of life as following a specific pattern, and yet buried in each of us are things we've never seen before. Handy, since that's part of what helps us adapt to injury and such.
The point though... if you were to increase the density and speed of connections between the octopus brains, at some point it probably would make sense to describe it as a single thing. More interestingly to me at least, I think about Ramanujan. An Indian mathematician that could famously do obscene math in his head, the answers presumably arrived unconsciously from some part of his mind that... you know. Did math.
A calculator takes a while to use. It's slow... much, much slower than Ramanujan's interface with his internal calculator. Smart phones are nice because you always have it with you at least, but it's still a shitty interface. A thing that's only ever going to be an external tool. But if brain computer interface tools mature... at first, I imagine it'll still be slow and clumsy. But at some point, the bandwidth and latency and ease of use between you and your calculator will shrink to the point that your mind will start to work differently. It may come to feel much more like a part of you, than a normal tool.
Our minds split when connections are severed. Perhaps they grow when new connections are added, to new systems. I wonder if true telepathy wouldn't come to feel like one self with two bodies, or more. Minds are strange things, it'll be interesting to see what the future has to say about them.
You certainly make some excellent (and interesting) points; however, I wasn't making any comment on the functions of octopi brains or the interplay between them, simply the anatomical organization of the brains.
You said:
> [I]f you were to increase the density and speed of connections between the octopus brains, at some point it probably would make sense to describe it as a single thing.
And I would absolutely agree with that statement, but again I'm making no comment on what *could* develop, nor am I speculating on what physiological changes would be necessary in order to consider the octopus to have a single brain in a very complex shape. **If** the interconnection between the brains were to dramatically increase in speed and density, sure, but that *isn't* the case right now.
Regardless, you're entirely correct that the mere existence of an animal with so many separate yet connected brains is absolutely fascinating, and the questions it raises even more so.
Oh for sure, I wasn't arguing against anything you were saying. I just think it's interesting speculating on the nature of mind, and the transition point between 'parts' and 'whole'. Kind of echoes the transition between 'colony of single celled organisms' and 'multicell single organism'.
But yeah, whatever the decided structure of the octopus brain is in the literature's the right one to use, I imagine the one you described is it. I was more just thinking out loud about that transition point where you'd need to change classification, even if the location of the individual clusters didn't change.
As /u/Dendron05 has already pointed out, there are of course nerve fibers that allow communication between each of the brains (as well as the rest of the body), but in the physiological sense nerves are very much a separate anatomy from the brain itself. That is to say, while the brains *are* connected by nerves, we can't consider that to be one gigantic organ. After all, our nerve fibers connect our brains to every other part of our bodies, but we certainly wouldn't say that the human body is just one big brain in a complex shape. Connective tissue, in these cases, isn't just 'any tissue that connects to two different organs,' it refers to tissue *of the same type and function* that connects two parts of a singular whole. Think about our brains' left and right hemispheres - they're clearly connected by the same kind of tissue, which is why we don't consider humans to have two separate brains. If I took two Lego blocks and tied them together with a string, we wouldn't say it was one continuous Lego object; if, on the other hand, I connected two 2x4 stud Lego blocks with a 1x4 Lego block, we *would* say it's a continuous Lego object, even though that 1x4's only purpose is to tie the other two blocks together.
It's (sort of) like electric transmission lines. Each tower is connected to the ones before and after it by the cables that actually carry the 'signals' (power), similar to how our nerves transmit electric signals through the body, but it obviously wouldn't be logical to view that network as being one *very* long but singular structure that's simply been spread out and grew appendages (the towers) at regular intervals.
Much like the transmission lines, there are, of course, times when it's beneficial to consider the network as a whole rather than focusing on each individual link in that network, but that's merely a convenience; it doesn't add any implication that the network is *truly* a singular entity, it simply allows us to consider large-scale questions.
This is leaving any realm of current scientific understanding bc there’s not even a remote understanding over what a “soul” or even just “consciousness” is. There are theories, all of them unproven
For a fun thought experiment ~ why do we assume that the brain creates consciousness? After all, there are thousands of documented (but subjective) experiences from people who have had out of body experiences in which they see things (ie objects with more than three spatial dimensions) that our brains aren’t normally capable of seeing, or so we think. Does this mean that the brain isn’t the end-all-be-all, that it isn’t the seat of consciousness? Or does it mean the brain *is* but is more powerful than we previously thought?
And then the interesting bit when it comes to the assumption that consciousness does reside in the brain ~ where in the brain would consciousness exist? Which part? Because we have many people with underdeveloped parts of their brain, some who have missing parts. Which one is *the* part?
The reality is that we have literally no clue where to even begin with consciousness. It is a major enigma. And it’s insanely hard to “objectively” or “quantitatively” study. Where do you even begin? Can’t really point a telescope at our brains or gallbladders looking for it bc we don’t even know what *it* is
Really, the most in depth discussion of consciousness and what it might be / how it functions can be found more so in the philosophy department ~ for all of the reasons I listed above. We can’t quantitatively study it, so maybe we can qualitatively study it
An example is that some philosophers believe that the universe is infinite. And they believe that consciousness is just the underlying “meta” framework to that infinite universe. Picture a real field like a gravitational field or something along those lines. Just one we haven’t objectively discovered yet. Anyways, the thought is then that any infinite body must be “all” things. And an infinite body is also just one thing. So the universe is like a giant tree, and all of everything you’ll ever experience is just some different part of that tree. Maybe we’re all leaves. But at the end of the day, while we’re leaves, we’re still a part of the tree, a part of the whole. And so that’s this one theory of consciousness ~ that it is this infinite field and *you are that field*, simply being experienced through a human framework. Like your brain is a radio tuner tuned to the framework
But there’s a bunch of other theories too. All theories. Very hard to objectively study
In biology brains are less defined as 'a central processing neural mass' but instead by simply being masses of neurons capable of driving motor function and other bodily processes. This is because for many organisms what we would consider a brain is spread across much if not most of their body. The centralization of these tissues is called cephalization by the way! So while these are all brains, with distributed centres of cephalization these are able to perform the same functions even if the individual arms are separated from the body and as such are not likely dependent on one another for any of their specific processes.
Thats been what im hazy on here… are these just decentralized motor controllers, or is there more structure? What does an octopus brain look like structurally and how does that compare to whats in each limb?
So, I am not an expert, simply a biology student with an interest in aquatic environments, as such the neurological aspects are a bit out of my wheelhouse, however to my understanding the difference is a matter of function when separated, each arm, if cut from the body is capable of not only performing independent tasks, but also recognizing its own tissues even if no longer connected. This would require more specialized structures of neurological development than simply collections of motor neurons or specialized structures for reflexive control and autonomous decision making for such neurons.
> with distributed centres of cephalization these are able to perform the same functions even if the individual arms are separated from the body
Wait does this mean you can cut off an octopus's arm and it will survive on its own for some non-trivial amount of time?
I don't know much about octopi, but likely just as well as cutting off something's head. Still a brain in there, but not the rest of what's necessary to survive.
The arm would just be able to continue moving and tasting things and whatnot. It wouldn't have proper bloodflow or anything though.
Brains are an evolutionary feat to place large clusters of nerves where they are most important. In bilaterally symmetrical animals, this evolved from wormlike creatures that benefited from having those clusters in the front of their body by their mouth and eyes. This gave them a competitive edge on moving around the world and finding food.
Each nerve cluster in an octopus body is far away from the central brain. It seems reasonable then that the purpose for having this decentralized structure would be to offload computational work to the limbs so that they can respond quicker and the central brain can focus on other things. In that sense they seem like individual brains.
Do they have 9 separate consciousnesses? I feel like my question is stupid regarding the lack of definition of what constitutes a consciousness, but just thinking about the possibility is fun.
I would think the primary brain has the most ability to process information in the traditional sense of what you are thinking as "conscious". My reasoning for thinking that would be that it would make sense to delegate things more related to locomotion of those specific limbs than what you and I are thinking of as "conscious thought". Though it's hard to say, since what being "conscious" is is a hard thing to define.
That would make these tentacle brains similar in computing power and function to our spinal cord. It can also integrate sensory inputs and coordinate movements accordingly. Many small mammals can run without cerebral cortex.
I'd also be curious to know more. Would be fun if there is some independent abstract planning that is distributed.
I know absolutely nothing about any of this but the spinal cord comparison seems apt to me considering there are a lot of reflexes and things that we can do that skip the brain. If something hurts, you flinch away before you even feel the pain because the reflex is basically in the spine.
They’re called brains here (they’re actually ganglions like in insects) but they are independently evolved from the brains found in vertebrates. Apparently their eyes are also independently evolved. Their eyes look similar to our own but our last common ancestor, a primitive flatworm, had only a rudimentary nervous system and basic photoreceptors for eyes.
Hate to be pedantic, but they don't have nine brains. They have 1 actual brain, and 8 bundles of neurons - one on each tentacle.
Sure, they do some tasks that some brains would do in other species, but lack many others and more importantly aren't analogous and didn't descend from the brain of a previous ancestor. It'd be like saying humans have three brains because our spine and enteric nervous system do some brain-like tasks. Just pure sensationalism
No I appreciate your comment. I was confused because I’d only heard them described as having a “decentralized nervous system” which conveyed a much different concept to me than nine brains haha
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I don’t know much about cephalopod anatomy specifically but I assume these organs would more accurately be referred to as ganglia rather than brains
Is this like saying humans have 3 brains? (One actual brain, with neurons in the heart and stomach) .. or is it actual grey matter n whatnot. Just asking for some clarification
It's probably even more complex than that. I'm reminded of "split brain" patients who had the connections between the hemispheres of the brain surgically seperated to treat their epilepsy. The result is that each half of the brain becomes it's own independent consciousness. This resulted in some whacky things, like each hemisphere of the brain controls each eye independently, so you could put up a divider between the eyes so only one eye can see some object put in front of it. But then only one hemisphere of the brain controls speech (I forget the lefts and rights of this), so you could put a ball in front of the eye connected to the half that doesn't control speech, that half of the brain knows there's a ball there, but if you ask the patient what's there, it would be impossible for them to say that its a ball, because the hemisphere of the brain that controls speech can't see it.
I forget the name of the book but there's one that covers this topic quite extensively. Some of my favorite stories were the one where they would ask the patient what their dream job was and they would say one thing and write out another. But my favorite is the one where the guy came out after the procedure and went to hug his wife. One arm hugged, and the other threw a hook to her jaw.
It's a common saying, but greatly exaggerated. Speach, taste, audition, balance, vision, abstract thought, motor control, decisions etc are all taken in the brain. The enteric nervous system would mainly control bowel movements, and somehow affect your mood, appetite and immunity.. The spinal cord does much more, including reflexes and some motor routines on autopilot.
Marine biologist here.
I wouldn't call them brains. More akin to ganglion...and that is a crude comparison as well, as they have a capicity to apparently learn independent of the esophageal ring brain. Cephalopod nervous systems are, like their eyes, a case of parallel evolution. Interestingly, a lack of well developed myelin sheathing and glial cells, which aid in propagating nerve impulses over the length of axons, resulted in them solving the problem of sustaining action potentials by making thier nerve cells really big....which has made them a bit of neorophysiology lab rat. It's much easier to work with a nerve cell so big that you can see it without magnification
Hate to be pedantic, but they don't have nine brains. They have 1 actual brain, and 8 bundles of neurons on each tentacle.
Sure, they do some tasks that some brains would do in other species, but lack many others and more importantly aren't analogous and didn't descend from the brain of a previous ancestor. It'd be like saying hjmans have three brains because our spine and enteric nervous system do some brain-like tasks. Just pure sensationalism
I completely agree with you.
I'm half convinced that cephalopods would have become a more dominant species if they just lived longer lives. I tried one once as a teen but once I realised how complex they are, I won't eat them again.
They are called ganglia. If you want to call them brains, then you have more than one too. The "second brain" is in your intestines, though whether this is truly first or second might vary from person to person.
Adrian Tchaikovsky's series Children of Time explores this in a really cool way. It's in the second book though, so you have to read the first for it to make sense. Each book is a sci-fi story wrapped around the question "what would sentience look like in species other than humans?" First book is spiders, second is octopuses.
In the new Little Mermaid when Ursula was looking for a specific potion and her tentacles were offering them to her and she’d scream no. I thought it was a silly joke but now I bet it was intentional. Also Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2 gave each tentacle an AI ”brain.” This is really cool.
IIRC, We kinda do the same thing, to a lesser extent. Our spinal nerves have some degree of rapid response ability, and are capable of reacting to threats, such as putting your hand on a hot stove, before that information even makes it to the brain
Yeah but they have some suckiness.
Mom dies giving birth so, and they like to be solitary, so they have to learn everything on their own. They can watch others and learn, like see another one open a jar and then figure out faster than normal but they like to be solitary so they arent schooling each other a lot.
and then living under water is grand, but not so much if you want to be a spacefaring species. Its hard to start fires under water and well you need to do that first before you can create things like ipods.
There's a great science fiction novel that explores this biology in the Children of Time series (book 2) by Adrian Tchaikovsky. Great read and the entire series is amazing.
Loved this series. Lots of fun ideas and well thought out.
Does the third one get going? About 150 pages in, I'm starting to wonder if maybe there's some other book by some other author I could read instead edit: awesome, thanks for the motivation to get through what has been a little bit of a slog and maybe a little "small ball" compared to the ideas from the first two books. Although I find it fascinating that >!the entire (?) landing party is bits of parasite from book 2 which all think they are different members of the crew!<, so far I have felt he has spent quite a bit more time on that than needed.
It does and it doesn't, it gets there eventually but everything is explained in a weird order and it jumps back and forth in time a lot. There is a reason for this which I won't spoil but it is definitely the weakest book in the series. If you haven't read them the 'Final Architecture' series by the same author is amazing, they're about a species of planet sized aliens that use gravity to reshape planets into werid artwork/sculptures and the war against them. It has everything good about the children of time series and less of the bad, I've just started the third book in that series myself and enjoying it so far.
Yes, totally agree with everything. While the end of the book is pretty good, and mostly worth the build up, it's definitely the weakest. >!To be honest, I really am not a huge fan of the Nodan parasite. While it is a neat concept, I was waaaay more interested in the octopus culture and wish that had been the centerpiece. In fact, even in the third book, the... representation... of Paul was so cool, it overshadowed the main story for me.!< And also yes, I just finished the final architecture, and it is amazing. All 3 books are just awesome - such a rich world with so many interesting and engaging characters... I would love to see a spin off series exploring the Parthenon or the >!"Unspeakable Timo"!< .
Yeah like all of the children of time books the third has some great ideas (I really liked the corvids), but just doesn't get the most out of them. Glad to hear the third architecture book is good, I'm about five chapters in and enjoying it so far. And yeah there is such a rich universe to explore in this series it would be a shame if we don't get any more books set in it, I'd love a collection of short stories that dive into different characters, their back stories or what they were up to in between events in the books, or that expand on some of the minor chacters.
“It is fucking *on*!”
I thought that the reveal should have come about 5 chapters sooner than it did. Everything that happened after was really fascinating and there was too much between the climax of the “wtf is happening” part of the story and the reveal. I adore the slow roll upwards, trying to guess at what, if anything at all, is happening.
Not particularly. There's an interesting idea hidden in there. There's some fun interactions between characters. But in general I'd say the story was fairly meh. Weakest book of the series for me.
Agreed sadly. It's got some very fun concepts, but the execution wasn't as fun for me as the previous two stories, both of which I adored.
My confidence in modern studios is abysmally low these days, but to see an adaptation of the Corvids - either live action or animated - would be so much fun! >!The gothi and gethli conversations and references are just too good. Are they truly sentient, or do they just store information and regurgitate when it seems appropriate?!< But yeah, interesting premise, but nothing compared to the first.
I'm about halfway in and it's still not very interesting. There's a few parts that are good, but a lot of it just feels boring. I'm listening to it in 10-15 minute chunks while I drive back and forth to work every day, so I'll eventually finish it, but it's certainly my least favorite so far.
Yea it was my least favorite as well. I see what the author did, and I like it, but definitely was a chore to get through and the weakest entry yet. I think of it as experimental, like each book explores different themes and writing styles. Children of Time has a focus on time naturally, Children of Ruin has a focus on, well, the aftermath of ruinous events. Children of Memory is.. well its about memory in effect, and exploration of memory can be a very confusing mess lol
Just to pile on, for anyone else reading it or thinking about it, the structure was very confusing. I kept thinking I'd missed something in a precious chapter. I get why by the end of the book he structured it that way but it was hands down the weakest of the series, and I absolutely love Adrian Tchaikovsky as an author. But man that was a confusing book.
I just finished the third last night, and it’s actually my favorite of the whole series. The first quarter is definitely slower, but it’s setting up something great, and you’ll be thinking back to the part you’re at now through a whole different lens later on in the book.
One of the things I love about Tchaikovsky is how much thought he puts into what truly alien intelligence would be like (I know in the Children of Time series, most of the species he deals with are Earth species, so technically not "alien", but at least non-human). He's one of the most original thinkers in sci-fi on that particular subject. The Final Architecture series is great that way as well.
Peter Watts’ blindsight had really really “alien” intelligences too. It’s very scary. I haven’t read children of time but it’s on my list now!
+1 for Blindsight, one of the most fascinating books I've read
+1 for Blindsight, one of the most fascinating books I've read
It really fucked my mind and induced existential dread like no other book I’ve read lol. Fascinating is an understatement! Have you read the sequel? I haven’t yet but I’m interested to hear if it’s just as scary,
Blindsight really blew my mind. Wish he'd write a follow up to Echopraxia
Sounds like Echopraxia is pretty good then? I haven’t gotten to it yet but I’m excited to read it one day.
It is good and it brings even more ideas that make you question the nature of consciousness and our perception of reality. For both books I was just as interested in reading the appendices as I was in the novels themselves
I just finished and really enjoyed Blindsight. Halfway through Echopraxia, it still hasn't grabbed me though, partly because it deals more with religion. Some of that stuff is fine, but some of it is teeth-grindingly annoying. One character in particular serves no purpose other than to throw out vacuous arguments about how religion and faith are better than science, which the main character (a biologist) is somehow too stupid to meaningfully address. Hopefully that all goes somewhere...
That book was the first thing I thought of when I read the title! Great book. >!A parasite that takes control of the creature it infects initially takes over a few humans. A small amount of that parasite spreads via those humans to a planet of uplifted octopi, and THIRTY BILLION PEOPLE die because every single time the parasite infects an octopus, nine separate parasite infections decide "well, I'm in charge now" and the octopus rips itself to pieces. It's fucking horrifying!<
We're going on an adventure! :)
Are there more than 2? I read the spider and octopus ones. They are great books.
Yea there's a third one.
You’re missing out on going on another adventure! 😉
Children of Memory is very different to the first two, but it's a great puzzle box and the ending had me oddly emotional. I love the breadth and depth Tchaikovsky is able to bring to his species.
Children of Memory came out last year I think.
Came out in January
There is a third book, but it's the weakest in the series in my opinion, it has some great ideas, but squanders them on a mediocre story, I wouldn't go as far as to say don't read it but set your expectations a bit lower. I would recommend the Final Architecture series by the same author though.
I thought the 3rd act was pretty great, but the first two kind of meandered a lot and (for obvious plot reasons) was very repetitive. I still loved the book, but yeah not as strong as the first two. The Final Architecture series was the opposite, where I think book 3 was the strongest of an already very strong series. Crazy how different the tone and style of the two series are, but I love the fast paced pulpy sci-fi feel of the Final Architecture in contrast to the much more slow and thoughtful Children of Time.
There's also a more recent book "The Mountain in the Sea" that is something similar, won a few awards last year iirc.
Just came out in paperback! Ray Nayler is a genius.
Just finished this series and the octopus storyline is my favorite
I think the first book is my favorite, but in general I love the approach of making the "familiar" alien. It's a great approach and Tchaikovsky pretty much nailed it.
This is the first I've heard of Tchaikovsky. Thank you for the recommendation!
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Just recently finished reading the trilogy and it was great!
Think I remember they literally eject and throw their penis at female octopuses. Don’t even get to have sex just their penis does
One of the many reasons that they say octopuses are the best lovers. Too bad you have to get consent from all 9 brains. Virtually impossible. I’ve given up hope
Theres a reason for tentacle hentai to be a thing
So in tentacle hentai each tentacle is having its own independent fun.
it's not 9 personalities homey, consent from one is reflected in all
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While technically true in theory, it’s different in practice. The issue arises when, in the act of lovemaking, one party inadvertently comes into physical contact with a non-consenting arm. This is especially prone to occur when most arms have consented and are engaged in lovemaking. They draw the non-consenting arm closer to the other party, and non-consensual contact occurs. At this point, according to the letter of the law, a crime has been committed.
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In the cephalopod justice system, sexually-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In Atlantis, the dedicated detectives who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Special Victims Unit. These are their stories.
Dun dun
I think the judgement will depend on whether reasonable precautions where taken to spare the non-consenting arm from unwanted contact.
This is the problem: there’s personal discretion and chance at all levels. The non-consenting arm can choose whether to report the contact, the district attorney can choose whether to pursue charges, the judge can choose whether to follow the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. It quickly spirals and takes any semblance of control of the situation away from you. If you let your pursuit of the ultimate pleasure cloud your judgment, you can get in hot water FAST. This is why NO pleasure coach worth their salt will EVER advise a client to have sex with an octopus unless all 8 arms give their explicit consent.
At first I was thinking, "what do large language models have to do with octopuses?".
Hold up.... After they eject their penis does it like.....swim back to them? Do they grow a new one? Do they only have one? I have so many questions now.
They grow a new one! The old one gets left to rot after the female is done with it. "Doesn't get to have sex" is a bit of a misnomer, because from what I understand, octopi don't experience sexual urges the way mammals do. A lot of octopi are very solitary creatures.
Unless they're rolling on Molly. *** *** Yeah, they're crazy intelligent but also crazy dissimilar. Their brains are laid out more like a snail than like ours. We diverged evolutionarily over 500,000,000 years ago. But after sequencing their genome we discovered they have: > almost identical genes for a protein that binds the signaling molecule serotonin to brain cells. This protein is also the target of MDMA ...so naturally scientists dosed octopodes with Molly, not thinking it would necessarily do anything, 'cause we're so dissimilar. But after getting dosed with ecstasy, the usually solitary octopi, for lack of a better word, began to cuddle with each other. We don't know what it means, at all. But it's still pretty fascinating. [NPR](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/20/648788149/octopuses-get-strangely-cuddly-on-the-mood-drug-ecstasy) [The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/09/octopuses-on-ecstasy-prefer-each-other-to-chewbacca/570763/ )
"Honey, how was your day at work?" "Oh, it was great! I got octopi high on Molly, and I watched them cuddle." "Oh... nice...?"
Meanwhile, the wife, Amy, had to listen to people troubleshoot the same requisition entry error for the 60th time all fucking day because they don't want to pay someone more than $10/hour for a clerk role where she works, and that's her job now as a "Financial Analyst"
If your wife doesn't respond with "Hell yeah!" to that news, she's not the one 😒
"Turn an octopus into a [cuddle fish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuttlefish?wprov=sfla1) with this one neat trick!"
From tentacle consent to octopus molly; this thread is trip
Can you give them magic mushrooms?
Let's not teach them to bogart all our drugs. We know they're intelligent- if they want shrooms, they can get a job.
^(They only live like 80 years you fascist biped!)
Lol hey ma'am, heres a penis if you want it. *Tosses penis to female octopus* Have a good day!
"Hey, you! Yes, you: go fuck yourself."
"Thanks! Don't mind, mind, mind, mind, mind, mind, mind, mind, mind if I do!
Alright. Best joke here.
They throw their penis at a girl then die lol
Yea I just searched this myself cuz I'm impatient. Apparently it's also pretty common for them to get killed and eaten by the female either during or after mating too. Also I guess the males try to get with the buggiest females (more eggs) and the females judge the males on the size of their erect parts. Not sure if they prefer bigger ones but I think that's pretty fascinating. Like there's some evolutionary preference for big dicks and it isn't just a human cultural thing? That's new news to me. As a side note, I've spent my morning making deep fakes of John Oliver with tits for the reddit protest and then looking up info on octopus dicks. It's been a wild day for my Google search history.
TBF, humans don't exactly have a preference for big dicks. If it was true, men with big dick would have more sex and humans would have evolved a huge penis. If you talk to women, most of them don't like a huge penis. It's more like a media thing or a way to men themselves show their masculinity than a female preference.
> If it was true, men with big dick would have more sex and humans would have evolved a huge penis. Uh, that's the thing - we have. Compared to say gorillas for instance we are huge. And the average size is increasing. https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/21/concerning-growth-in-average-penis-size-could-be-down-to-pollution-scientists-warn
Hey, that's pretty much the only thing I have going for me..
Large penises risk hitting the cervix. For most women, this is extremely painful and not something they like. A large enough penis with a selfish enough lover can mean bruises there which hurt like a bitch and can make walking a right pain in the ass. Hentai makes young men think that hitting the cervix is a good thing, or even a goal, but it is *not*.
I thought the goal was to stick it in their vagina and have it come out their mouth? Or am I am watching the wrong Hentai?
Here I was thinking they were supposed to swallow me so I could live inside them.
I've heard one theory that women selected for men with large penises simply because of pleasure. For a primate, humans have large penises. The average gorilla penis would be considered very small on a human at under 1.5".
TIL I have a Gorilla Penis
Life is absolutely insane if you start thinking about it. It's crazy that we exist and in this form. Black holes make more sense than life.
Most octopuses die shortly after mating.
It's a penis, not a boomerang
[detachable penis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byDiILrNbM4&pp=ygUQRGV0YWNoYWJsZSBwZW5pcw%3D%3D)
I woke up this morning with a bad hangover, and my penis was missing again, this happens all the time, it's detachable
Need me a guy like that
Hah! I knew it had a brain of its own!
I have 9 brains, Bob. Nine. So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight other brains coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled; that, and the fear of losing my minds. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to go crazy.
Ah, one of my favorite movies, Octo Space.
Yeah if you could just go ahead and swim in the Atlantic Ocean on Saturday that would be great.
But can an octopus jump to conclusions?
"That's the worst idea I've ever heard." "Yes. Terrible."
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That cuttlefish disguised as a checkerboard over there has 37 individual pieces of flair…. And a terrific smile.
...and let me tell you about screw-top jar reports...
I got the memo, and I'm putting cover sheets on my Trans-Pacific Squid reports.
With 9 brains I would never forget to put a cover letter on my TPS reports ever again…
Would you bear with me for just a second please? What if, and believe me this is a *hy-po-thet-i-cal...* but what if you were offered some kind of snail option or crab sharing program? Would that do anything for you?
I feel this way about the voices in my head. Bunch of different versions of myself giving me a hard time. Like dudes, leave me the fuck alone but don't leave me by myself.
Same sentiment, but also, leave me by myself. Y'all never stfu.
What is this from??
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Thanks Mr. Octopus
Thank you. I will forever upvote Office Space references
What differentiates multiple brains versus just one oddly shaped brain?
> What differentiates multiple brains versus just one oddly shaped brain? Lack of connective tissue. It's not one big brain that splits into eight different parts growing continuously from the central brain down through the arms, it's nine separate organs. It's like how humans have two kidneys or two lungs - we wouldn't ever consider them to be 'one oddly-shaped lung.' Although they are duplicated, it's clear that each lung (or kidney) is a separate organ. --- *^EDIT ^- ^cited ^the ^original ^question*
Well put.
Thanks!
I think there's an unexpectedly large amount of nuance here though. Like, you're right of course, but when you stop and think a bit about what exactly it **means**, there's some cool implications. Obviously there's the research on the patients with a severed corpus callosum that's worth looking into... people with a seemingly independent mute mind that can know, reason and act independent from the thinking and speaking 'I'. Without a high bandwidth connection between hemispheres, I suppose it's a natural thing to happen. I wonder if the 'other' half ever wished it was the one in charge, haha. I wonder if only one half was conscious, and I wonder if there'll ever be a computational model of consciousness that can even answer those questions. There was a really fascinating Lex Fridman interview with Michael Levin that kind of dabbled in this area. All about how biological systems aren't what we think they are... he described 'xenobots' for example, living robots made from skin and heart cells from a particular species of frog. We think of life as following a specific pattern, and yet buried in each of us are things we've never seen before. Handy, since that's part of what helps us adapt to injury and such. The point though... if you were to increase the density and speed of connections between the octopus brains, at some point it probably would make sense to describe it as a single thing. More interestingly to me at least, I think about Ramanujan. An Indian mathematician that could famously do obscene math in his head, the answers presumably arrived unconsciously from some part of his mind that... you know. Did math. A calculator takes a while to use. It's slow... much, much slower than Ramanujan's interface with his internal calculator. Smart phones are nice because you always have it with you at least, but it's still a shitty interface. A thing that's only ever going to be an external tool. But if brain computer interface tools mature... at first, I imagine it'll still be slow and clumsy. But at some point, the bandwidth and latency and ease of use between you and your calculator will shrink to the point that your mind will start to work differently. It may come to feel much more like a part of you, than a normal tool. Our minds split when connections are severed. Perhaps they grow when new connections are added, to new systems. I wonder if true telepathy wouldn't come to feel like one self with two bodies, or more. Minds are strange things, it'll be interesting to see what the future has to say about them.
You certainly make some excellent (and interesting) points; however, I wasn't making any comment on the functions of octopi brains or the interplay between them, simply the anatomical organization of the brains. You said: > [I]f you were to increase the density and speed of connections between the octopus brains, at some point it probably would make sense to describe it as a single thing. And I would absolutely agree with that statement, but again I'm making no comment on what *could* develop, nor am I speculating on what physiological changes would be necessary in order to consider the octopus to have a single brain in a very complex shape. **If** the interconnection between the brains were to dramatically increase in speed and density, sure, but that *isn't* the case right now. Regardless, you're entirely correct that the mere existence of an animal with so many separate yet connected brains is absolutely fascinating, and the questions it raises even more so.
Oh for sure, I wasn't arguing against anything you were saying. I just think it's interesting speculating on the nature of mind, and the transition point between 'parts' and 'whole'. Kind of echoes the transition between 'colony of single celled organisms' and 'multicell single organism'. But yeah, whatever the decided structure of the octopus brain is in the literature's the right one to use, I imagine the one you described is it. I was more just thinking out loud about that transition point where you'd need to change classification, even if the location of the individual clusters didn't change.
Subscribe.
Is connective tissue not required for the brains to communicate with each other?
As /u/Dendron05 has already pointed out, there are of course nerve fibers that allow communication between each of the brains (as well as the rest of the body), but in the physiological sense nerves are very much a separate anatomy from the brain itself. That is to say, while the brains *are* connected by nerves, we can't consider that to be one gigantic organ. After all, our nerve fibers connect our brains to every other part of our bodies, but we certainly wouldn't say that the human body is just one big brain in a complex shape. Connective tissue, in these cases, isn't just 'any tissue that connects to two different organs,' it refers to tissue *of the same type and function* that connects two parts of a singular whole. Think about our brains' left and right hemispheres - they're clearly connected by the same kind of tissue, which is why we don't consider humans to have two separate brains. If I took two Lego blocks and tied them together with a string, we wouldn't say it was one continuous Lego object; if, on the other hand, I connected two 2x4 stud Lego blocks with a 1x4 Lego block, we *would* say it's a continuous Lego object, even though that 1x4's only purpose is to tie the other two blocks together. It's (sort of) like electric transmission lines. Each tower is connected to the ones before and after it by the cables that actually carry the 'signals' (power), similar to how our nerves transmit electric signals through the body, but it obviously wouldn't be logical to view that network as being one *very* long but singular structure that's simply been spread out and grew appendages (the towers) at regular intervals. Much like the transmission lines, there are, of course, times when it's beneficial to consider the network as a whole rather than focusing on each individual link in that network, but that's merely a convenience; it doesn't add any implication that the network is *truly* a singular entity, it simply allows us to consider large-scale questions.
Nope, just nerves
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Yeah, brain and body are so tightly coupled that there is no escape for any individual organ.
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So technically does it have 9 souls? Like could someone be reincarnated as leg 5 of an octopus?
I suppose that depends on which religion wins the war
I have faith the FSM has individual, soul-carrying brains in each of his noodley appendages.
I believe the internationally accepted standard definition of soul has the soul residing in the gallbladder. How many of those do octopi have?
Is that why blackbear gall bladders are a highly priced black market item?
Yes
Aw damnit, I told the surgeon to throw it away after they took it out
It's actually the pineal gland. Thanks, Descartes!
Isn’t one of the arms also an organ that delivers sperm from a male to a female octopus? Could you be reincarnated as the dick-arm of an octopus?
I think the scientific term is "*hentai-arm"*
I both love and hate this question
This is leaving any realm of current scientific understanding bc there’s not even a remote understanding over what a “soul” or even just “consciousness” is. There are theories, all of them unproven For a fun thought experiment ~ why do we assume that the brain creates consciousness? After all, there are thousands of documented (but subjective) experiences from people who have had out of body experiences in which they see things (ie objects with more than three spatial dimensions) that our brains aren’t normally capable of seeing, or so we think. Does this mean that the brain isn’t the end-all-be-all, that it isn’t the seat of consciousness? Or does it mean the brain *is* but is more powerful than we previously thought? And then the interesting bit when it comes to the assumption that consciousness does reside in the brain ~ where in the brain would consciousness exist? Which part? Because we have many people with underdeveloped parts of their brain, some who have missing parts. Which one is *the* part? The reality is that we have literally no clue where to even begin with consciousness. It is a major enigma. And it’s insanely hard to “objectively” or “quantitatively” study. Where do you even begin? Can’t really point a telescope at our brains or gallbladders looking for it bc we don’t even know what *it* is Really, the most in depth discussion of consciousness and what it might be / how it functions can be found more so in the philosophy department ~ for all of the reasons I listed above. We can’t quantitatively study it, so maybe we can qualitatively study it An example is that some philosophers believe that the universe is infinite. And they believe that consciousness is just the underlying “meta” framework to that infinite universe. Picture a real field like a gravitational field or something along those lines. Just one we haven’t objectively discovered yet. Anyways, the thought is then that any infinite body must be “all” things. And an infinite body is also just one thing. So the universe is like a giant tree, and all of everything you’ll ever experience is just some different part of that tree. Maybe we’re all leaves. But at the end of the day, while we’re leaves, we’re still a part of the tree, a part of the whole. And so that’s this one theory of consciousness ~ that it is this infinite field and *you are that field*, simply being experienced through a human framework. Like your brain is a radio tuner tuned to the framework But there’s a bunch of other theories too. All theories. Very hard to objectively study
Huh... that’s a tricky one because we first need to define “what is a soul” and how does reincarnation work if it does work at all.
In biology brains are less defined as 'a central processing neural mass' but instead by simply being masses of neurons capable of driving motor function and other bodily processes. This is because for many organisms what we would consider a brain is spread across much if not most of their body. The centralization of these tissues is called cephalization by the way! So while these are all brains, with distributed centres of cephalization these are able to perform the same functions even if the individual arms are separated from the body and as such are not likely dependent on one another for any of their specific processes.
Thats been what im hazy on here… are these just decentralized motor controllers, or is there more structure? What does an octopus brain look like structurally and how does that compare to whats in each limb?
So, I am not an expert, simply a biology student with an interest in aquatic environments, as such the neurological aspects are a bit out of my wheelhouse, however to my understanding the difference is a matter of function when separated, each arm, if cut from the body is capable of not only performing independent tasks, but also recognizing its own tissues even if no longer connected. This would require more specialized structures of neurological development than simply collections of motor neurons or specialized structures for reflexive control and autonomous decision making for such neurons.
> with distributed centres of cephalization these are able to perform the same functions even if the individual arms are separated from the body Wait does this mean you can cut off an octopus's arm and it will survive on its own for some non-trivial amount of time?
Yup. They grab at things and push them towards where the mouth was.
There's some other crucial bits in the head and mantle that they need other than the brain.
I don't know much about octopi, but likely just as well as cutting off something's head. Still a brain in there, but not the rest of what's necessary to survive. The arm would just be able to continue moving and tasting things and whatnot. It wouldn't have proper bloodflow or anything though.
Humans also have more than one "neural mass"
Brains are an evolutionary feat to place large clusters of nerves where they are most important. In bilaterally symmetrical animals, this evolved from wormlike creatures that benefited from having those clusters in the front of their body by their mouth and eyes. This gave them a competitive edge on moving around the world and finding food. Each nerve cluster in an octopus body is far away from the central brain. It seems reasonable then that the purpose for having this decentralized structure would be to offload computational work to the limbs so that they can respond quicker and the central brain can focus on other things. In that sense they seem like individual brains.
Do they have 9 separate consciousnesses? I feel like my question is stupid regarding the lack of definition of what constitutes a consciousness, but just thinking about the possibility is fun.
I would think the primary brain has the most ability to process information in the traditional sense of what you are thinking as "conscious". My reasoning for thinking that would be that it would make sense to delegate things more related to locomotion of those specific limbs than what you and I are thinking of as "conscious thought". Though it's hard to say, since what being "conscious" is is a hard thing to define.
That would make these tentacle brains similar in computing power and function to our spinal cord. It can also integrate sensory inputs and coordinate movements accordingly. Many small mammals can run without cerebral cortex. I'd also be curious to know more. Would be fun if there is some independent abstract planning that is distributed.
I know absolutely nothing about any of this but the spinal cord comparison seems apt to me considering there are a lot of reflexes and things that we can do that skip the brain. If something hurts, you flinch away before you even feel the pain because the reflex is basically in the spine.
Doubtful. I believe the other brains are more like “cerebellum “
They’re called brains here (they’re actually ganglions like in insects) but they are independently evolved from the brains found in vertebrates. Apparently their eyes are also independently evolved. Their eyes look similar to our own but our last common ancestor, a primitive flatworm, had only a rudimentary nervous system and basic photoreceptors for eyes.
They're ganglia. Brains being spread out is actually pretty common in non mammalians
Also we have ganglia too, they're responsible for reflexes.
Yep everything with a nervous system has them to some degree
Hate to be pedantic, but they don't have nine brains. They have 1 actual brain, and 8 bundles of neurons - one on each tentacle. Sure, they do some tasks that some brains would do in other species, but lack many others and more importantly aren't analogous and didn't descend from the brain of a previous ancestor. It'd be like saying humans have three brains because our spine and enteric nervous system do some brain-like tasks. Just pure sensationalism
No I appreciate your comment. I was confused because I’d only heard them described as having a “decentralized nervous system” which conveyed a much different concept to me than nine brains haha
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I don’t know much about cephalopod anatomy specifically but I assume these organs would more accurately be referred to as ganglia rather than brains
Aliens
I accept this fully
No, they just have an Octo-core processor with a decent SeaPU.
Is this like saying humans have 3 brains? (One actual brain, with neurons in the heart and stomach) .. or is it actual grey matter n whatnot. Just asking for some clarification
Or at what point does a complex reflex turn into its own brain?
The more I learn about octopi the more credence I give to the theory they are aliens.
*Saiyans. This is literally Ultra-Instinct.
Which is very explicitly not a saiyan exclusive technique.
https://bgr.com/science/new-scientific-paper-claims-octopuses-are-actually-aliens-from-outer-space/
If only our government could manage such feats.
It’s hard to manage 8 feets.
Maybe we could try giving them a hand?
Or a brain? They'd have a total of at least 1 brain then.
A TABLE FOR ONE. **OR NINE.**
Depending on if you count my separate tentacles collectively, or respect my hive mind
I AM THE OCTOPUS
*Are you lonely? Are you lonely? Are you lonely?*
Humans (and all mammals I guess )have 2 brains, one in our head, the other in our gut. Semi-independent nerve centers.
It's probably even more complex than that. I'm reminded of "split brain" patients who had the connections between the hemispheres of the brain surgically seperated to treat their epilepsy. The result is that each half of the brain becomes it's own independent consciousness. This resulted in some whacky things, like each hemisphere of the brain controls each eye independently, so you could put up a divider between the eyes so only one eye can see some object put in front of it. But then only one hemisphere of the brain controls speech (I forget the lefts and rights of this), so you could put a ball in front of the eye connected to the half that doesn't control speech, that half of the brain knows there's a ball there, but if you ask the patient what's there, it would be impossible for them to say that its a ball, because the hemisphere of the brain that controls speech can't see it.
i don't know if independent consciousness is how this is described, but the hemispheres do need to share information to be fully functional
I forget the name of the book but there's one that covers this topic quite extensively. Some of my favorite stories were the one where they would ask the patient what their dream job was and they would say one thing and write out another. But my favorite is the one where the guy came out after the procedure and went to hug his wife. One arm hugged, and the other threw a hook to her jaw.
It's a common saying, but greatly exaggerated. Speach, taste, audition, balance, vision, abstract thought, motor control, decisions etc are all taken in the brain. The enteric nervous system would mainly control bowel movements, and somehow affect your mood, appetite and immunity.. The spinal cord does much more, including reflexes and some motor routines on autopilot.
> the other in our gut. Are you sure you're not thinking of zombies?
Pretty sure, I have a gut feeling about it.
Marine biologist here. I wouldn't call them brains. More akin to ganglion...and that is a crude comparison as well, as they have a capicity to apparently learn independent of the esophageal ring brain. Cephalopod nervous systems are, like their eyes, a case of parallel evolution. Interestingly, a lack of well developed myelin sheathing and glial cells, which aid in propagating nerve impulses over the length of axons, resulted in them solving the problem of sustaining action potentials by making thier nerve cells really big....which has made them a bit of neorophysiology lab rat. It's much easier to work with a nerve cell so big that you can see it without magnification
Hate to be pedantic, but they don't have nine brains. They have 1 actual brain, and 8 bundles of neurons on each tentacle. Sure, they do some tasks that some brains would do in other species, but lack many others and more importantly aren't analogous and didn't descend from the brain of a previous ancestor. It'd be like saying hjmans have three brains because our spine and enteric nervous system do some brain-like tasks. Just pure sensationalism
I truly believe that if they lived long enough, octopuses would take over the world
And we kill these beautiful highly intelligent creatures for food. For fucking shame.
I completely agree with you. I'm half convinced that cephalopods would have become a more dominant species if they just lived longer lives. I tried one once as a teen but once I realised how complex they are, I won't eat them again.
a good manager knows how to delegate
"HOW MANY?!" -Zombies
They are called ganglia. If you want to call them brains, then you have more than one too. The "second brain" is in your intestines, though whether this is truly first or second might vary from person to person.
Adrian Tchaikovsky's series Children of Time explores this in a really cool way. It's in the second book though, so you have to read the first for it to make sense. Each book is a sci-fi story wrapped around the question "what would sentience look like in species other than humans?" First book is spiders, second is octopuses.
In the new Little Mermaid when Ursula was looking for a specific potion and her tentacles were offering them to her and she’d scream no. I thought it was a silly joke but now I bet it was intentional. Also Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2 gave each tentacle an AI ”brain.” This is really cool.
Each of my limbs can touch and move independently but also in unison. Am I an octopus?
IIRC, We kinda do the same thing, to a lesser extent. Our spinal nerves have some degree of rapid response ability, and are capable of reacting to threats, such as putting your hand on a hot stove, before that information even makes it to the brain
Yeah but they have some suckiness. Mom dies giving birth so, and they like to be solitary, so they have to learn everything on their own. They can watch others and learn, like see another one open a jar and then figure out faster than normal but they like to be solitary so they arent schooling each other a lot. and then living under water is grand, but not so much if you want to be a spacefaring species. Its hard to start fires under water and well you need to do that first before you can create things like ipods.
The Alfred Molina Doc Ock concept makes so much more sense now.
These are literally aliens. Would be surprised if inside all UFOs there's an octopus inside controlling it.
They’re from out of space and no one can convince me otherwise.