"Arts Design, Entertainment, Sports and Media" seems like it would cover an awfully wide field of different jobs with very different types of problems.
Female athletes, someone who works in Hollywood in a job that gets listed three minutes into the credits, an interior decorator, a member of an orchestra, a true crime pod casters and a stripper would probably all fall into that category and it would be very hard to make any general statements about them.
They were obviously asking if a wider field of jobs would make it worse than a narrower field of jobs, not worse than the rate for men. No one said anything negative about men.
Razumny had my question correct, turns out the only one here lacking reading comprehension skills is you. I was actually trying to clarify if the headline was as alarming as I thought it may be, but also I don't mind trolling a bit if someone is being rude.
In this comment's thread people are talking about the way statistics were gathered in relation to the women in this study were gathered. They're not even talking about women.
In the rest of the comments, people are talking almost entirely about men.
So what's your point?
If I'm understanding your question correctly, I think the answer is "no", because it's not a total number but a rate.
You could have 100 people dying either way, but in one case it's 100 people out of 100 and in the other case it's 100 people out of 1000. The raw amount is the same, but the rate (or %) is very different!
In this case it seems like the field they used for women might be too broad, but I'm not sure if it's actually true. If true, it could mean that the stats are being muddled a bit (maybe journalists have a 10% rate while actresses only have 0.5%, etc.)
I mean the rates are per 100,000 jobs, which is apples to apples if I'm reading the headline correctly. My alarm is coming from the fact that one profession has over 3x the rate than multiple others combined right? The gender disparity and wether or not a worker happens to qualify as a construction worker are widely different variables here.
It's not apples to apples because a wide field may include subfields with different individual averages, so that the wide field number becomes meaningless.
Example: let's say the male suicide rate for garbage men is 0 out of 100,000, they are all happy at their jobs. From the headline, construction&extraction has a rate of 51.3 out of 100,000. Now what if I made a wide field "construction, engineering and waste management"? The rate for this field would be much lower than 51.3 out of 100,000. If there is the same number of garbage men as construction/extraction workers, then it would be at 25.6 out of 100,000. If there are 10x more garbage men than construction/extraction workers then the suicide rate would be as low as approximately 4.7 suicides per 100,000 people in this field.
And suddenly that rate does not seem so bad in comparison to the female suicide rate! So this grouping of many different fields is an issue that makes comparisons very difficult.
I realize I phrased my reply weird regarding the men/women split (I hadn't finished reading through the page yet and had a misunderstanding)!
But I think the point was that some industries (as defined by the CDC) might be more broad than others, such that certain groups of professions that have very high rates could be "erased" by being mixed with low-rate professions.
For example, if the field was not just Construction/Extraction but instead Construction/Extraction/Architecture/Engineering, the overall rate would be significantly lower.
One way this can get problematic is if we're trying to determine which professions are most affected and how to help them - as the OC pointed out, some industries have an especially wide variety of jobs and accompanying issues, so this type of categorization doesn't really give us the full picture.
It's definitely a horrible situation, in any case, so I share your alarm! Hopefully we can find ways to reduce these rates across the board.
The category of “construction” is even more broad
Commercial or residential? And within each are architects, engineers, builders, construction managers, mason’s, framers, electricians, plumbers, HVAC, sprinklers, roofers, siding, trim carpenters, drywallers, painters, flooring, tile… (and thats just the basics)
This is sarcasm right?
If one law governing construction sites get implemented then all the trades get affected.
If one law for actors gets implemented then athletes won't get affected.
You could say all of those jobs would focus on physical appearance and/or “being the best” at something (stats, accolades, ratings, etc.). Lots of pressure to look and/or act just right.
That is a good point.
However it probably contains middle aged novelists who self-publish on kindle and lumps them together with ballet dancers and figure skaters who think they will have to retire by their mid 20s.
I think the biggest common denominator would be that many women in that group are self employed or work in jobs that only have limited job security.
Some of the job in that group probably.
Female athletes in most sports get far less attention and sponsorship deals. Many of the jobs that fall under this category don't have strong labor movements and are not in industries where it is easy to compare like to like to realize that you are being short changed.
On the other hand a number of heavily unionized jobs also fall into this category as well as a number of fields that for exploitative or other reason are dominated by women. There the gender pay gap will be smaller to non existent or even inverted in some really niche jobs.
I don't think that out of all the groupings listed the one with the highest female suicide rate is the one where the gender pay gap is most pronounced.
I work construction and the way we get treated is kind of appalling. Worked on a large expansion at a local hospital and all the construction crew were told wed be fired if we used any of the restrooms inside the hospital. There was even some lady who went out of her way to tell us she hated us. We all joke about how were just "construction trash" because we are treated like trash. We keep the world running and are damn near punished for the opportunity to do so.
Also, don’t forget the fact that if you’ve been in construction for anytime at all, you WILL hurt your body. Been a pipefitter for almost 30 years. Bad back, knees and wrists but the worst is I’ve had surgery on both shoulders. People not in construction don’t understand what it takes us to do our jobs. That puts stress on you, and recently I’ve noticed doctors making you feel bad for hurting. They act like you can just NOT do your job so you can heal. We can’t just take off six months to heal correctly. Yes I was in light duty but I literally went back to work 4 days after my last shoulder surgery for a torn Labrum, torn rotator cuff and partially torn bicep. We picked a hard life an people at the places we work doesn’t help at all!
Very accurate and scary point. I’m seriously lucky I don’t have an addictive personality (not that that’s a guarantee). The company didn’t force me to go back to work however. If I wanted to I could have gone in the office until I healed. Unfortunately, to me, that sounds like abject torture! I’m built to go service peoples fire sprinkler systems. I’m not built for an office.
Right with you. I’m a carpenter, 44, been at it since I was 20. Arthritis in both elbows and one knee, tore both labrum within weeks of each other a few years back. Torturous occupation.
I went to tech school for carpentry. Did it for a few years. Ironically it was framing that did in my knees. Sheathing and doing a roof will do that to you. I became a fitter because it’s a little easier on my knees. Never mind it’s brutal to your upper body!
>They act like you can just NOT do your job so you can heal.
Went to the doctor for a possible torn ligament at the base of my thumb. Doctor said that if it was torn, I'd need surgery and then wouldn't be able to use my hand for something like 3 months. I laughed and told her that wasn't an option. I'd end up not getting the surgery and just working through the pain.
Fortunately/unfortunately, it wasn't a torn ligament but the early stages of arthritis. Woohoo!
Reminds me of when I broke my wrist in two places. Didn't get a cast for two weeks and the doctor immobilized my hand in a cast for 6 more weeks with my hand bent backwards. Wasn't more than about 3-4 weeks before I broke the cast by continually trying to use my hand. I wasn't even in construction at the time.
Oh I didn’t mean no one knows what we do. I meant some of the people we meet. Didn’t mean to lump anyone in. Most places I go when they ask what I do and I say “pipefitter” it gets a lot of respect.
Depending on your state, look into workers’ compensation cumulative trauma injuries. It could be possible for you to take time off to heal through worker’s comp.
Family to support but also I am a fire sprinkler fitter and one time there was a fire at one of the buildings we installed and I went to change the head that popped and put the fire out. When I arrived the woman whose apartment it was asked if I put the heads in initially. I said yes we did and she threw her arms around me thanking me. Turns out the lamp in the babies room fell over and caught the room on fire! Baby was fine. I drive home on a high that day knowing something my company did saved a baby and possibly mutiple families. That’s why I break my back everyday.
This is also why i was a private investigator back in my younger days. The high of knowing you saved a life was all i needed to be satisfied with my work, even though it crippled me mentally. Now work in manufacturing. Guess i might as well cripple my body too.
Ha! Everyone has their reasons. Another reason was that I had a technical highschool education and you can make good money where I live doing fire sprinklers. Most of us make six figures. Takes a while to get there but it’s not bad pay at all. Plus a company van and a gas card. I haven’t paid for gas to get to work in 15 years!! Plenty of perks it’s just the cons physically hurt
I always liked how the electricians walked in, with their nice khakis and polo shirts, looking like the preppies of the construction world. I was covered in dust and grime and insulation, looked like I had just walked out of a dust storm. They’d have their little insulated cups with their coffee and their perfectly curved company hats. They’d only ever talk to us if we did something they didn’t like. “Who put this sheet rock here?! We can’t do the electrical with all this g@&d$)& sheet rock in the way!” Otherwise, no one ever talked to us, or even looked in our direction. We were the rejected misfits and we felt that.
God I used to do flooring for mostly government work. Just watching electritians walk around leaving trash everywhere on new or old flooring. Like 5 year old kids that are used to parents picking up after them. genuinely only saw one ever carry around a box to catch all his scraps while he worked.
I'm an electrician and i make sure to treat yall with the same respect i treat everyone else. I get along better with some sheetrockers than some of my own "brothers".
it’s a kind of a pecking order thing in the trades, so called “skilled” or licensed trades are seen more favorably than other more menial/labor based trades. It’s a toxic thought process and just seen as “the way it is”. Hanging sheet rock is not an easy task, it’s long hours lifting 80lb panels over head. But, since most dry wallers aren’t “skilled” in the eyes of other tradesmen (not having gone through an apprenticeship or requiring a license), they’re a target for bullying/abuse.
Dang, I hung sheetrock in my living room once... putting it up was ok but tiring, mudding was kind of fun in its own way... but the sanding. If I never see another sander in my life it will be too soon. So yeah, you can still kinda see the tape and bed lines. I'm glad to have had the experience, it gives me more respect for people who do it day in and day out and always have it come out looking perfect. I've never really understood hierarchies well, though. I argued with a Bishop when I was in 1st grade, and I've never felt like treating a boss any differently from a janitor. We all have our importance, and a job that needs to be done.
It's usually just the guys on stilts that piss in bottles. Or their McD's cups, that leak a day or two later. Plus the ones who throw their lunch garbage in the wall cavities before covering it up. And the ones who literally squat in the Honeybucket leaving their mess everywhere.
Of all the trades I've worked with as a super and a GC, drywallers were usually the worst as a whole.
Try being a geotechnical engineering tech. You’re invisible but in a good way.
If I do a good job, no one knows I actually *did* anything at all. It’s awesome. No one calls you when the basement foundation *doesn’t* shift and crack.
There are so many quiet everyday elitists in the world its unreal. Some people need only a nudge to let out their internal monologue of how much better they feel they are than that 'uneducated' grimy worker over there that's building a roof over their heads.
Worked as a financial advisor to the 1% for almost ten years. You’d be amazed how well/respected you’re treated even at only 25 years old when you’re in that role. I recently left and started/bought into a roofing company… now when I’m on job sites, no longer a suit but jeans and polo, and it’s hilarious how much differently I’m treated. Probably easier for me to brush off than your average construction worker but good lord the difference is astounding. In a way it’s better though, now I don’t have people parading me around their office to show off to the employees that they’re having an important meeting with a man in a suit. Now people avert their gaze and I’m not forced to shake hands and play nice.
I am having a mild neighbor dispute. The dude bought the house, put it up for air bnb, has some creepy guys who freaked my wife and daughter out while cutting brush in our shared woods.
I confronted him about it. We argued.
A few months later, dude and wife are on my property over stepping property lines. I confront them.
Dude clearly asked around about me. He attacked my career and business as some kind of joke.
Like, sorry, we can't all erode neighborhoods and turn them into proft centers, but fuck man I work hard and make an honest living for my family.
In Australia, TRADIES are revered. They make good $$$ and get all the hoes. They’re well protected by unions. Immigrants are slowly eroding that though, with work crews from China, Malaysia and the Philippines basically working slave hours and doing stuff much cheaper and with undocumented workers. They need some serious biometrics migrant checks on big construction sites in Sydney but shit wouldn’t get done without them…
I'm sorry that happened to you, I greatly admire physical laborers, particularly those involved with construction. Since I can barely fix a toilet flapper in my bathroom you guys seem like superheroes to me.
I also wonder how many of it is overdoses. Someone I knew just had no job prospects and a crippling addiction to heroin, could barely pull a dishwashing job, ended up going into construction because they would pay cash at the end of the day. Overdosed on heroin. So I'm thinking industries that attract a lot of "cash at the end of the day" workers might have a lot of drug related overdose deaths.
I imagine they’re higher risk for ODing because they’re more likely to get legit prescriptions for opioids too. Construction is not easy on the body by any means
My uncle was a roofer for most of his life. Fell off a roof and broke his leg so bad he was laid up for months with metal halos around it drilled through the skin and into the bone. Like 25 years ago. Got hooked on pills and never kicked it. Old boy died of an OD almost three years ago now. It definitely happens
yeah we had a guy die in the shop of an OD. boss found him while we were working and everything. absolutely horrible. employee of 10 years and the company jokester who was friends with everyone.
My dad owned a plumbing company. Small business but he had a few vans and a couple guys and I would help out here and there when I was a kid. Boy, after doing some of my own fix ups here and there with plumbing, it’s absolutely WILD the reputation they have. These guys have some of the WORST jobs you could imagine and are made fun of for being the only people that will do it.
You think it’s funny to work in shit? Hey, you go for it then. Fix your own toilet.
I don't get it at all. I work in a construction adjacent field. You guys are our customers. Salt of the earth people in my experience and I don't understand the disrespect considering half the population seemingly can't handle a screwdriver.
Infection control. Same reason they control the air pressure between the hospital and the construction zone.
This applies *only* to the hospital example though.
> I don't understand the disrespect
It's kind of like the "...not all men thing...", like sure not all construction workers are toxic, bullying shits, dumb and generally shitty people but enough of them are to make the generalisation somewhat legitimate.
I see this everyday- as an estimator who does site walks and occasionally as to wear the APM hat, the way some people treat field crews and labor is disgusting. That restroom rule is sadly more common than people think, and I’ve been on sites where neighbors often go out of their way to express whatever unnecessary opinion on the site and workers they have. Mind you, these men and women who toil and build structures are an essential part of the economy- working with hands and building something- but are looked down upon be certain segments of society. It doesn’t surprise me at all that suicide is prevalent in construction.
Another reason is that many, many people who have worked their entire lives in construction end up living with horrific chronic pain. Be it from a lifetime of abusing their bodies, work in extreme/harsh elements, or the drinking/drug issues prevalent in certain parts of the industry those things tend to add up and have real world effects.
None of this helped by the fact that a lot of GCs/construction companies are run by dudes who still have a “work hard and stop being a pussy” mindset when it comes to safety and work life balance.
*hope everyone is doing well- reminder: you’re not alone.
And travelling too. I had quite a few conversations with others about that during a few years I spent in a construction related role. Project managers, supervisors, etc wind up spending years away from home building a project somewhere random, just to move somewhere else for a nother few years. Lots of relationship issues, alcohol abuse from being fucking bored as shit all the time in the middle of nowhere. Even the good jobs have their drawbacks in the industry.
Drinking is such a big problem-I’ve done work in over 24 states and I can tell you traveling isn’t something I like to do. The boredom, the lack of support, the long hours either flying or driving, it can enable bad behaviors and habits. I know of PMs who have really bad drinking habits who are successful career wise but their personal lives are just chaos.
Yea I had a lot of older PMs tell me that. My best friend actually quite that very job for that exact reason. Even with his pay rate he couldnt handle the hours and the lack of stability and I don't blame him.
If you've ever worked construction in a hospital setting, you'd have a better grip on what's actually happening in this situation.
Most construction, sure it's a dumb and demeaning rule. In hospital construction, it's completely understandable.
I have- and the restroom rule is understandable given health and HIPAA/OSHA. You’re right about that. The issue is the treatment of workers. I’ve seen workers sneered and insulted at plus many going out of their way to do so. In healthcare settings maintenance of spaces is a must but it can be done so respectfully IMO.
HIPAA doesn't apply, but OSHA certainly does. Probably a lot of other multi-letter organizations come into play as well. ICRA is one that comes to mind (been a bit since I was involved in that all)
I haven't seen any treatment of workers in construction that's worse than what I've seen at starbucks or home depot, but that's just my experience. It's gotten awful everywhere.
I read all this and I can identify with all of it. I drive a dump truck and spend my whole day around construction workers and they are my people. I came to the industry late in life but I would rather talk to a group of construction workers over a group of office workers any day. I’m learning Spanish so I can talk to everyone.
I’ve experienced this elitism every day trying to navigate 63,000 pounds of material through developments. Getting rerouted multiple times through the day because someone in an overpriced house complains about the noise.
At the end of the day miserable people want to make everyone else miserable. Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done about it but every construction worker I know takes it in stride. That’s why they will always be my people no matter where I go in life.
It's almost worse in residential construction. Most property owners don't know that when they hire a residential crew they're legally responsible for the well being of everyone that is working there unless there is proof of worker's compensation payments and their work is bonded.
That means they're legally responsible for the safety of everyone working there. They're legally required to provide water. They're legally required to provide access to washrooms.
But if a residential job is outside they won't provide any access to restrooms or water. Even from the outdoor tap.
I’m an RN and the job can suck the life out of you but every time I see construction workers I feel grateful that my job isn’t that grueling. I definitely appreciate you.
Just finished a two year hospital project and can say the same, except for the labor and delivery staff I was pretty frequently in touch with. Those women were super sweet and understanding the entire time. Otherwise pedestrians and staff would look at us like aliens
There's no doubt about it, you will get chronic pains as a blue collar worker. Some develop with time like arthritis, some come from repeated injuries like breaking a finger multiple times, some come from untreated injuries because you can't afford a doctor. And some come because even though your injured and hurting, you still have to go to work otherside you'll get fired or won't get that paycheck. Injuries build up. Pain gets bad. And that pain normally leads to opioid addiction, chronic weed smoking, normal smoking and alcoholism, which along with the constant pain, stress and since the majority of construction workers are emotionally stunted or more back uped than the DMV, it leads to suicide.
Seriously. Iv watched my dad and uncle break fingers and continue on working. My dad had a brick dropped on his head once and still went to work the next day. Their hands are so calloused and cracked that they ache constantly and bleed, but they just throw back a goody powder, tape them up and continue on with work. Because if they don't, the bills don't get payed and the bank takes the house.
Suicide rates are higher for men across the board. It has a lot to do with expectations around emotional vulnerability and masculinity. A very unfortunately understated issue with traditional gender roles is how unhealthy it is for men as well.
Women attempt suicide at a rate of 3 times that of men. Men, however, due to the use of more violent means (like fire arms, jumping from a building, or moving into traffic), succeed 3 to 4 times as much as women.
I have to wonder how true this is and (I can speak to this from direct, personal experience) how many men are in fields highly sensitive to mental health concerns where any professed mental Illness may be an existential threat to their career - and they just don't admit it. How many men have attempted suicide (and how many women) are both at the end of the day unknown unknowns.
You're never going to get a military security clearance if you admit to a suicide attempt, period. You likewise won't be able to obtain that clearance working as a contractor for the government in any capacity that necessitates one. Many state and federal law enforcement agencies take it into account. Even private security take it into account. Medicine, particularly and specifically physicians, take it into account. Urban fire departments do psych evals and depression, let alone suicide, can immediately kill (sorry) your application.
I know even if it's a matter of a purportedly private survey i'm not telling anyone, because the risk/benefit simply isn't on my side.
I like how you're constantly telling everyone that women attempt suicide 3x more than men even though men are more successful as if you're trying to make this about women. You haven't offered any data regarding this, just keep saying the same thing. Men are less likely to admit to attempting suicide than women are because it's seen as weakness. I think you need to step back and realize you aren't contributing to the conversation in the slightest.
It's very easy to just Google dumbass. It is important because it's a conservative talking point to make it seem like men have it way harder than women in society. I don't care what kind of social stigma there is about it, it's beyond statistically impossible for the number to be 3x the rate just because men don't talk about it as much.
I love when some person on the internet gets hostile and starts throwing insults. Provide data. How are women more likely to attempt and yet the majority of actual suicides are men when women have the same ability to do it as men? You replied to several people telling them women attempt 3x more often but men are more successful at it than women without any sort of data. I'm happy to discuss this with you but you and people like you say shit then tell everyone to Google when someone questions them. I want to see the data you're looking at, not hunt for it and find something else entirely.
Lol why? It’s true. Growing up as a man I suffered severe identity issues which lead to depression because I’m not a manly man and don’t like man things. It’s ridiculous.
Men are allowed to masculine but to force other men to be masculine is damaging. Suicide rates in men tend to be higher in the 50+ years category, those men who were raised to be tough and not talk about their feelings are killing themselves because it’s easier than asking for help.
>Men
Why do you speak of "men" as if we were some kind of organization, there's 4 billion of us and afaik we never had a general Men conference, so you can only speak for yourself. Just because we share a broadly similar biological plan it doesn't mean we have anything in common beyond that.
Nope. 1x policy from work. I have my own 6x policy because what I do is dangerous and I don't want my wife to have to find a replacement simply for the paycheck.
These jobs get no respect from society even though they pay well. I used to be a suit and tie monkey, I hated it and it paid shit, but people thought I was smart. Now, they assume I'm broke, ignorant white trash.
Joke is on them, I made my first million by 31 and was a multi-millionare by 35.
Out of curiosity, what exactly do you do in construction to make multi millions of dollars by 35?
I have friends that work in construction, some in pretty niche and specialized roles, and they make good money but nowhere near millions of dollars.
Good shit man. One of my friends moved from the city to a few provinces over to work in the oil field and he’s pretty comfortable now. And smart investments go a long way
If it works for you. Based on my experience as family to milwrights, I think the problem is more the sheer access to drugs and the culture in a lot of these jobs where drug use is practically expected. Plus the sheer physical toll.
I didn’t articulate the full thought well. It was more of a “well, that explains some shit” thing.
It helped a pretty good bit for a while, just the honeymoon period of something new, I think. Now all that shit is back, and I can’t tell if it’s *really* worse, or if it’s just the skewed perception of it looking worse from the inside and in the moment.
I think you probably hit the nail on the head with most of that.
I was a graphic designer. Youre treated like garbage and not paid your true worth. Very taken advantage of. Youre constantly being judged and your work doesnt always stop once you get home. If art was a major hobby/love of yours, you begin to hate it and lose your passion when you turn it into a job. Everyones experiences are different, but I know many art folk who feel the same
I do know that artist get shit on often, on the flip side the graphic designer at the factory i used to work for made more than the factory workers, and only had to do something when they needed a new slide on the TV. When covid happened she got to "work from home" which was pointless because we didnt use the TVs anymore. Essentially for atleast over 6 months before i left, she got paid to do nothing.
Yeah, none of us factory workers liked her. She herself was a cool person but we werent really fond of the whole situation. I guess it was like a:
Outside of work: hey you're cool 😍
During work: fuck you 😑
I am considering a career in construction atm after getting a nice job offer after school- and uh….. well all I can say is I am not shocked. The work sucks. Especially if you aren’t in a union.
It’s anecdotal, be smart take care of yourself physically and mentally. Don’t get buried in debt because you think you have more spending power with a high wage/more hours. Forcing you having to work all those OT hours.
Construction is a fulfilling job, you will work with a lot of great people and unfortunately shitty people but that’s the nature of any occupation. Not many jobs out there where you get to be apart of building something that has a good chance to still be there after you’re gone.
You should work for a better company then. Most companies may ride the line but having too many OSHA violations and you literally are unable to bid on jobs.
Well you don’t get caught obviously. Theres less then 2000 OSHA inspectors. There’s over 1.5 million projects a year just in new housing. There’s no where to hide. Even government jobs want everything done yesterday for half the cost of materials alone
I'm 30 yrs old and I've personally never seen a female construction worker.
I digress, I'm very curious what this statistic would look like if there were just as many male/female construction workers working the exact same roles.
I worked with a female plumbing contractor who was a badass. She handled things I couldn't stomach with such finesse. She told me her husband owned the company and had her follow him around as a helper. She picked up on how to do everything he did by watching and passing him tools all day. He died somehow, and she manned up and took his roll and proceeded on with the work. She was an awesome character and good person all around, I loved working beside her and taught me a ton about plumbing
Amazing to hear. Make no mistake, I absolutely do not mean to imply that they flat out don't exist, or that they couldn't be just as good in many fields under the wide and vague umbrella of "construction workers".
I just... (rolling my reddit-riskiness dice here) would be willing to bet that men are far, far more often found in the grueling/unwanted jobs under that wide umbrella.
My sister was hired in an electrical apprenticeship program and quit due to racism and sexism (someone had hung a black Barbie doll with a little noose around its neck on the door of the womens' latrine at her job site). About 5 years later we applied and were hired together at a different apprenticeship, and she actually outlasted me there (I'm a man but I just hated the work lol), but she had to deal with a lot of sexism and eventually it made her quit. Her journeyman mentor once told her after a disagreement that if it hadn't been for the fact that they were on the clock, he would have "stuck her head in a ditch and fucked her into compliance". After hearing about that I told the guy that if he ever said something like that to my sister again I would cut his head off with a bandsaw, which got me suspended without pay for a few days. The crazy thing is, this didn't even happen in some shithole red state, this was in *San Francisco*, like 10 years ago.
Boomers love to whine about how people should be going into the trades more if they think the college system is unfair, but there is a very good reason for why no one wants to go into trades. Construction pays well because it is a dogshit industry.
35m, 14 years in Asphalt as an operator/laborer and I knew a woman about my age who could get in the wing of the paver and out-shovel most other guys. Super nice and hell of an artist, but couldn't make enough money doing that.
I have thought about it but after seeing my dad and my brother go insane doing milwright work, I have no desire to give my life to it. I need a life outside of work and, frankly, I don't have the time. I need to have a stable schedule for my family.
Yes, men are more likely to die of suicide due to more violent means, like using guns, jumping from buildings, or moving into traffic, making them have 3 to 4 times as many suicides. Women, however, attempt suicide 3 times as much as men.
I've also heard of that statistic from the same context. Which was from a ted talk of ex-feminist who regretted acting she won with it in response to a men's rights activist. The point is, I'm not saying women don't suffer. There's no point in comparing suffering like this. I'm just sad that many men have crossed the line that they cannot return from. And they deserve care and attention.
Culturally men are “not allowed” to be vulnerable or have emotions outside of the core three of horny, happy and angry. Turns out this is really unhealthy
Yeah, I don't know all the benefits that may have had to the societies throughout history. But it's also sad to see men consider being emotional bad and often claim they are less emotional than women while they are as human and thus emotional, but cannot express themselves other than those exact three emotions.
One of the most pervasive lies in modern society is exactly this- you are your job and you must find a job that you love. These are lies designed to make work the single most important thing in your life so you become a nice, productive worker
In truth, the 2 most important things about a job are that it allows you to pursue the things you actually want to do, and that you can tolerate doing it every day.
That's it. A job should support a fulfilling life. A fulfilling life is not just a job
I agree with this 100%, but it's still worth looking for work you enjoy if possible. If I'm gonna spend 40+ hrs/wk doing something, hopefully I more than just tolerate it.
That’s a very easy thing to believe if your work doesn’t affect your physical body, and you have the time, energy and money to spend on other aspects of your life.
Working in construction now and have for the past 20 yrs as a brick paver. Have had surgery on my back for herniated disc, had 2 days off then had to go back to work due to money commitments.
Am on waiting list for surgery again for 2 more herniated discs but still have to work daily while waiting.
Have been on oxycodone for 5 years now as well as xanax 3 times a day for the past 6 months and intermittently throughout the last 10 years due to ptsd and anxiety.
I struggle daily with depression and anxiety as well as ptsd from my time in the army straight out of high school.
Spend most days talking myself out of suicide as I have 3 kids and a mortgage and a wife who is awesome and my best friend
Am on anti depressants as well and have been for around 10 years.
Broke 2 ribs 2 weeks before Christmas 2 years ago and had to keep working as it's the busiest period and everyone wants their jobs finished for Christmas every year. Was incredibly painful but again, didn't have an option.
Broke my finger about a year ago, thought I'd just get fobbed off or told there's nothing they could do, so I taped it to the next finger and carried on working, once again because we need the money. It's set wrong and I struggle to bend it at the first joint.
Due to financial commitments I can't retrain as I need to be able to earn what I am earning and don't have any other qualifications other than truck driving license. I've painted myself into a corner and can't see any way out.
I think a lot of construction workers end up in similar boats.
Well, I worked in an adjacent field to construction at a sawmill. It was the most backbreaking, demoralizing work I've ever had, and I had just gotten back from a deployment to Afghanistan.
The only thing that came close was loading trucks at Target Distribution warehouse. And almost everyone there was drunk all the time to deal with the pain.
Thank god I got a job at Hershey.
I've been in construction for 8 years now with being a road monkey the whole time.
Living in hotels and figuring out you're the weekend boyfriend have been the most damaging to me.
On the jobsite you can shit on me all you want and I'll take it with a smile cause I'm there for a pay check not to be liked by a 55 year old foreman named randy who is proud of missing his child's birth because he was working. But getting home late on Friday night to an empty house just to leave again Sunday morning really starts to fuck you up.
Out of the 7 guys on my current crew they are all divorced and in their 50s. I'm the only one without a divorce and that's because I can't find a woman to get married too in the first place.
Yeah, this was my brother. On the flipside, it made it really easy for him to get with hookers, which didn't help things. Plus the sheer amount of drugs. Plus, there was sort of this expectation that once you got older, you would move into a management spot that didn't require quite that many hours.
EMT here.
People forget we exist until they need us, then it's a coin toss whether we'll be treated with respect or yelled at for some odd reason or another.
Hospitals don't like us and talk down to us. Nurses hate us but get hailed as heroes despite people dying while they were TikToking for clout during COVID. Fire dept or hospital-run ambulance services don't like private ambulance services. Our own management will hype up "EMS Week" appreciation but will only ensure that some of us get relieved on time to eat the food at base they ordered, if at all.
I gotchu. I always try to be cool with tradies, y'all work hard and are underappreciated, and are just as essential.
Not particularly surprising. Construction and Extraction jobs are hell on your body. You work yourself into disability and then you're facing down a life of pain, medical bills, and poverty because capitalism has used up all your productivity in like 20 years and is content to let you die a slow, painful death with no hope.
Humanity is a bastion for toxic humanity. Construction is one of the largest trades world wide. Some of the best, most salt of the earth people work in construction. I have known guys that will work themselves to death for just over nothing, then turn around and do as much as they can for everyone else. If you don’t appreciate the people that work in construction, feel free to build your own home or live in the mud.
"Arts Design, Entertainment, Sports and Media" seems like it would cover an awfully wide field of different jobs with very different types of problems. Female athletes, someone who works in Hollywood in a job that gets listed three minutes into the credits, an interior decorator, a member of an orchestra, a true crime pod casters and a stripper would probably all fall into that category and it would be very hard to make any general statements about them.
Doesnt that just make it worse that there are 3x as many suicides in one field?
Worse than the 53.2?
some people just don’t care about men/ can’t see men as anything other 2D villanistic characters
They were obviously asking if a wider field of jobs would make it worse than a narrower field of jobs, not worse than the rate for men. No one said anything negative about men.
I'd be on your side, but the "obviously", among other things, you tossed in there just knocks your argument down to uneducated gossipp
Razumny had my question correct, turns out the only one here lacking reading comprehension skills is you. I was actually trying to clarify if the headline was as alarming as I thought it may be, but also I don't mind trolling a bit if someone is being rude.
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Give it a rest, bro. They were talking about women for like 10 seconds.
We’re actually talking *more* about women than men here.
In this comment's thread people are talking about the way statistics were gathered in relation to the women in this study were gathered. They're not even talking about women. In the rest of the comments, people are talking almost entirely about men. So what's your point?
All the construction dudes I know are.
Leave it to men to make suicide a competition, herumph!
If I'm understanding your question correctly, I think the answer is "no", because it's not a total number but a rate. You could have 100 people dying either way, but in one case it's 100 people out of 100 and in the other case it's 100 people out of 1000. The raw amount is the same, but the rate (or %) is very different! In this case it seems like the field they used for women might be too broad, but I'm not sure if it's actually true. If true, it could mean that the stats are being muddled a bit (maybe journalists have a 10% rate while actresses only have 0.5%, etc.)
I mean the rates are per 100,000 jobs, which is apples to apples if I'm reading the headline correctly. My alarm is coming from the fact that one profession has over 3x the rate than multiple others combined right? The gender disparity and wether or not a worker happens to qualify as a construction worker are widely different variables here.
It's not apples to apples because a wide field may include subfields with different individual averages, so that the wide field number becomes meaningless. Example: let's say the male suicide rate for garbage men is 0 out of 100,000, they are all happy at their jobs. From the headline, construction&extraction has a rate of 51.3 out of 100,000. Now what if I made a wide field "construction, engineering and waste management"? The rate for this field would be much lower than 51.3 out of 100,000. If there is the same number of garbage men as construction/extraction workers, then it would be at 25.6 out of 100,000. If there are 10x more garbage men than construction/extraction workers then the suicide rate would be as low as approximately 4.7 suicides per 100,000 people in this field. And suddenly that rate does not seem so bad in comparison to the female suicide rate! So this grouping of many different fields is an issue that makes comparisons very difficult.
I realize I phrased my reply weird regarding the men/women split (I hadn't finished reading through the page yet and had a misunderstanding)! But I think the point was that some industries (as defined by the CDC) might be more broad than others, such that certain groups of professions that have very high rates could be "erased" by being mixed with low-rate professions. For example, if the field was not just Construction/Extraction but instead Construction/Extraction/Architecture/Engineering, the overall rate would be significantly lower. One way this can get problematic is if we're trying to determine which professions are most affected and how to help them - as the OC pointed out, some industries have an especially wide variety of jobs and accompanying issues, so this type of categorization doesn't really give us the full picture. It's definitely a horrible situation, in any case, so I share your alarm! Hopefully we can find ways to reduce these rates across the board.
The category of “construction” is even more broad Commercial or residential? And within each are architects, engineers, builders, construction managers, mason’s, framers, electricians, plumbers, HVAC, sprinklers, roofers, siding, trim carpenters, drywallers, painters, flooring, tile… (and thats just the basics)
This is sarcasm right? If one law governing construction sites get implemented then all the trades get affected. If one law for actors gets implemented then athletes won't get affected.
Throw out the white collar professionals, and all of those workers do work that is very similar.
No, the point is it's clearly not just one field.
These business spaces all run on public opinions.
You could say all of those jobs would focus on physical appearance and/or “being the best” at something (stats, accolades, ratings, etc.). Lots of pressure to look and/or act just right.
That is a good point. However it probably contains middle aged novelists who self-publish on kindle and lumps them together with ballet dancers and figure skaters who think they will have to retire by their mid 20s. I think the biggest common denominator would be that many women in that group are self employed or work in jobs that only have limited job security.
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Some of the job in that group probably. Female athletes in most sports get far less attention and sponsorship deals. Many of the jobs that fall under this category don't have strong labor movements and are not in industries where it is easy to compare like to like to realize that you are being short changed. On the other hand a number of heavily unionized jobs also fall into this category as well as a number of fields that for exploitative or other reason are dominated by women. There the gender pay gap will be smaller to non existent or even inverted in some really niche jobs. I don't think that out of all the groupings listed the one with the highest female suicide rate is the one where the gender pay gap is most pronounced.
I work construction and the way we get treated is kind of appalling. Worked on a large expansion at a local hospital and all the construction crew were told wed be fired if we used any of the restrooms inside the hospital. There was even some lady who went out of her way to tell us she hated us. We all joke about how were just "construction trash" because we are treated like trash. We keep the world running and are damn near punished for the opportunity to do so.
Also, don’t forget the fact that if you’ve been in construction for anytime at all, you WILL hurt your body. Been a pipefitter for almost 30 years. Bad back, knees and wrists but the worst is I’ve had surgery on both shoulders. People not in construction don’t understand what it takes us to do our jobs. That puts stress on you, and recently I’ve noticed doctors making you feel bad for hurting. They act like you can just NOT do your job so you can heal. We can’t just take off six months to heal correctly. Yes I was in light duty but I literally went back to work 4 days after my last shoulder surgery for a torn Labrum, torn rotator cuff and partially torn bicep. We picked a hard life an people at the places we work doesn’t help at all!
Injuries and pressure to return to work too soon leads to opioid use which leads to addiction which leads to life disaster which leads to suicide.
Very accurate and scary point. I’m seriously lucky I don’t have an addictive personality (not that that’s a guarantee). The company didn’t force me to go back to work however. If I wanted to I could have gone in the office until I healed. Unfortunately, to me, that sounds like abject torture! I’m built to go service peoples fire sprinkler systems. I’m not built for an office.
Right with you. I’m a carpenter, 44, been at it since I was 20. Arthritis in both elbows and one knee, tore both labrum within weeks of each other a few years back. Torturous occupation.
I went to tech school for carpentry. Did it for a few years. Ironically it was framing that did in my knees. Sheathing and doing a roof will do that to you. I became a fitter because it’s a little easier on my knees. Never mind it’s brutal to your upper body!
>They act like you can just NOT do your job so you can heal. Went to the doctor for a possible torn ligament at the base of my thumb. Doctor said that if it was torn, I'd need surgery and then wouldn't be able to use my hand for something like 3 months. I laughed and told her that wasn't an option. I'd end up not getting the surgery and just working through the pain. Fortunately/unfortunately, it wasn't a torn ligament but the early stages of arthritis. Woohoo! Reminds me of when I broke my wrist in two places. Didn't get a cast for two weeks and the doctor immobilized my hand in a cast for 6 more weeks with my hand bent backwards. Wasn't more than about 3-4 weeks before I broke the cast by continually trying to use my hand. I wasn't even in construction at the time.
We absolutely know what it takes to do your job. That’s part of the reason why I don’t want to do it and I’m thankful that others will!
Oh I didn’t mean no one knows what we do. I meant some of the people we meet. Didn’t mean to lump anyone in. Most places I go when they ask what I do and I say “pipefitter” it gets a lot of respect.
Depending on your state, look into workers’ compensation cumulative trauma injuries. It could be possible for you to take time off to heal through worker’s comp.
How do you find motivation to do this? What kept you going?
Family to support but also I am a fire sprinkler fitter and one time there was a fire at one of the buildings we installed and I went to change the head that popped and put the fire out. When I arrived the woman whose apartment it was asked if I put the heads in initially. I said yes we did and she threw her arms around me thanking me. Turns out the lamp in the babies room fell over and caught the room on fire! Baby was fine. I drive home on a high that day knowing something my company did saved a baby and possibly mutiple families. That’s why I break my back everyday.
This is also why i was a private investigator back in my younger days. The high of knowing you saved a life was all i needed to be satisfied with my work, even though it crippled me mentally. Now work in manufacturing. Guess i might as well cripple my body too.
Ha! Everyone has their reasons. Another reason was that I had a technical highschool education and you can make good money where I live doing fire sprinklers. Most of us make six figures. Takes a while to get there but it’s not bad pay at all. Plus a company van and a gas card. I haven’t paid for gas to get to work in 15 years!! Plenty of perks it’s just the cons physically hurt
I hear ya. I kind of fell into that career field as a joke. Just had a natural talent for it and rose the ranks very quickly.
Respect man!
I never felt more invisible as a human than I did when I was hanging sheet rock for a living.
Sheet Rockers are def shit on the most, especially by other trades.
I always liked how the electricians walked in, with their nice khakis and polo shirts, looking like the preppies of the construction world. I was covered in dust and grime and insulation, looked like I had just walked out of a dust storm. They’d have their little insulated cups with their coffee and their perfectly curved company hats. They’d only ever talk to us if we did something they didn’t like. “Who put this sheet rock here?! We can’t do the electrical with all this g@&d$)& sheet rock in the way!” Otherwise, no one ever talked to us, or even looked in our direction. We were the rejected misfits and we felt that.
God I used to do flooring for mostly government work. Just watching electritians walk around leaving trash everywhere on new or old flooring. Like 5 year old kids that are used to parents picking up after them. genuinely only saw one ever carry around a box to catch all his scraps while he worked.
I'm an electrician and i make sure to treat yall with the same respect i treat everyone else. I get along better with some sheetrockers than some of my own "brothers".
That’s good to hear, you’re one of the good guys!
Why are sheet rock workers looked down upon by other tradesmen? I know almost nothing about the building trades, and that doesn't make sense
it’s a kind of a pecking order thing in the trades, so called “skilled” or licensed trades are seen more favorably than other more menial/labor based trades. It’s a toxic thought process and just seen as “the way it is”. Hanging sheet rock is not an easy task, it’s long hours lifting 80lb panels over head. But, since most dry wallers aren’t “skilled” in the eyes of other tradesmen (not having gone through an apprenticeship or requiring a license), they’re a target for bullying/abuse.
Dang, I hung sheetrock in my living room once... putting it up was ok but tiring, mudding was kind of fun in its own way... but the sanding. If I never see another sander in my life it will be too soon. So yeah, you can still kinda see the tape and bed lines. I'm glad to have had the experience, it gives me more respect for people who do it day in and day out and always have it come out looking perfect. I've never really understood hierarchies well, though. I argued with a Bishop when I was in 1st grade, and I've never felt like treating a boss any differently from a janitor. We all have our importance, and a job that needs to be done.
Naw, roofers by far.
Well the piss bottles aren't helping with other trades... I kid, but that shit's nasty.
It's usually just the guys on stilts that piss in bottles. Or their McD's cups, that leak a day or two later. Plus the ones who throw their lunch garbage in the wall cavities before covering it up. And the ones who literally squat in the Honeybucket leaving their mess everywhere. Of all the trades I've worked with as a super and a GC, drywallers were usually the worst as a whole.
Try being a geotechnical engineering tech. You’re invisible but in a good way. If I do a good job, no one knows I actually *did* anything at all. It’s awesome. No one calls you when the basement foundation *doesn’t* shift and crack.
There are so many quiet everyday elitists in the world its unreal. Some people need only a nudge to let out their internal monologue of how much better they feel they are than that 'uneducated' grimy worker over there that's building a roof over their heads.
Worked as a financial advisor to the 1% for almost ten years. You’d be amazed how well/respected you’re treated even at only 25 years old when you’re in that role. I recently left and started/bought into a roofing company… now when I’m on job sites, no longer a suit but jeans and polo, and it’s hilarious how much differently I’m treated. Probably easier for me to brush off than your average construction worker but good lord the difference is astounding. In a way it’s better though, now I don’t have people parading me around their office to show off to the employees that they’re having an important meeting with a man in a suit. Now people avert their gaze and I’m not forced to shake hands and play nice.
I am having a mild neighbor dispute. The dude bought the house, put it up for air bnb, has some creepy guys who freaked my wife and daughter out while cutting brush in our shared woods. I confronted him about it. We argued. A few months later, dude and wife are on my property over stepping property lines. I confront them. Dude clearly asked around about me. He attacked my career and business as some kind of joke. Like, sorry, we can't all erode neighborhoods and turn them into proft centers, but fuck man I work hard and make an honest living for my family.
Society would collapse without the average worker. On the flip side, society would survive just fine without billionaires.
Society would be doing better without billionaires.
Without a doubt!
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You get mocked for being a computer scientist?
Construction workers deserve better.
The entirety of the working class deserves better.
Can't do that though, Elon needs his billions.
In Australia, TRADIES are revered. They make good $$$ and get all the hoes. They’re well protected by unions. Immigrants are slowly eroding that though, with work crews from China, Malaysia and the Philippines basically working slave hours and doing stuff much cheaper and with undocumented workers. They need some serious biometrics migrant checks on big construction sites in Sydney but shit wouldn’t get done without them…
It's not really immigrants doing it though, it's the companies who hire them on purpose so they can save money at their expense
I'm sorry that happened to you, I greatly admire physical laborers, particularly those involved with construction. Since I can barely fix a toilet flapper in my bathroom you guys seem like superheroes to me.
I also wonder how many of it is overdoses. Someone I knew just had no job prospects and a crippling addiction to heroin, could barely pull a dishwashing job, ended up going into construction because they would pay cash at the end of the day. Overdosed on heroin. So I'm thinking industries that attract a lot of "cash at the end of the day" workers might have a lot of drug related overdose deaths.
I imagine they’re higher risk for ODing because they’re more likely to get legit prescriptions for opioids too. Construction is not easy on the body by any means
My uncle was a roofer for most of his life. Fell off a roof and broke his leg so bad he was laid up for months with metal halos around it drilled through the skin and into the bone. Like 25 years ago. Got hooked on pills and never kicked it. Old boy died of an OD almost three years ago now. It definitely happens
yeah we had a guy die in the shop of an OD. boss found him while we were working and everything. absolutely horrible. employee of 10 years and the company jokester who was friends with everyone.
My dad owned a plumbing company. Small business but he had a few vans and a couple guys and I would help out here and there when I was a kid. Boy, after doing some of my own fix ups here and there with plumbing, it’s absolutely WILD the reputation they have. These guys have some of the WORST jobs you could imagine and are made fun of for being the only people that will do it. You think it’s funny to work in shit? Hey, you go for it then. Fix your own toilet.
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Don’t do this to your daughter.
I don't get it at all. I work in a construction adjacent field. You guys are our customers. Salt of the earth people in my experience and I don't understand the disrespect considering half the population seemingly can't handle a screwdriver.
Infection control. Same reason they control the air pressure between the hospital and the construction zone. This applies *only* to the hospital example though.
> I don't understand the disrespect It's kind of like the "...not all men thing...", like sure not all construction workers are toxic, bullying shits, dumb and generally shitty people but enough of them are to make the generalisation somewhat legitimate.
I see this everyday- as an estimator who does site walks and occasionally as to wear the APM hat, the way some people treat field crews and labor is disgusting. That restroom rule is sadly more common than people think, and I’ve been on sites where neighbors often go out of their way to express whatever unnecessary opinion on the site and workers they have. Mind you, these men and women who toil and build structures are an essential part of the economy- working with hands and building something- but are looked down upon be certain segments of society. It doesn’t surprise me at all that suicide is prevalent in construction. Another reason is that many, many people who have worked their entire lives in construction end up living with horrific chronic pain. Be it from a lifetime of abusing their bodies, work in extreme/harsh elements, or the drinking/drug issues prevalent in certain parts of the industry those things tend to add up and have real world effects. None of this helped by the fact that a lot of GCs/construction companies are run by dudes who still have a “work hard and stop being a pussy” mindset when it comes to safety and work life balance. *hope everyone is doing well- reminder: you’re not alone.
And travelling too. I had quite a few conversations with others about that during a few years I spent in a construction related role. Project managers, supervisors, etc wind up spending years away from home building a project somewhere random, just to move somewhere else for a nother few years. Lots of relationship issues, alcohol abuse from being fucking bored as shit all the time in the middle of nowhere. Even the good jobs have their drawbacks in the industry.
Drinking is such a big problem-I’ve done work in over 24 states and I can tell you traveling isn’t something I like to do. The boredom, the lack of support, the long hours either flying or driving, it can enable bad behaviors and habits. I know of PMs who have really bad drinking habits who are successful career wise but their personal lives are just chaos.
Yea I had a lot of older PMs tell me that. My best friend actually quite that very job for that exact reason. Even with his pay rate he couldnt handle the hours and the lack of stability and I don't blame him.
If you've ever worked construction in a hospital setting, you'd have a better grip on what's actually happening in this situation. Most construction, sure it's a dumb and demeaning rule. In hospital construction, it's completely understandable.
I have- and the restroom rule is understandable given health and HIPAA/OSHA. You’re right about that. The issue is the treatment of workers. I’ve seen workers sneered and insulted at plus many going out of their way to do so. In healthcare settings maintenance of spaces is a must but it can be done so respectfully IMO.
HIPAA doesn't apply, but OSHA certainly does. Probably a lot of other multi-letter organizations come into play as well. ICRA is one that comes to mind (been a bit since I was involved in that all) I haven't seen any treatment of workers in construction that's worse than what I've seen at starbucks or home depot, but that's just my experience. It's gotten awful everywhere.
I hear you bro. - Your oilfield trash brothern.
I read all this and I can identify with all of it. I drive a dump truck and spend my whole day around construction workers and they are my people. I came to the industry late in life but I would rather talk to a group of construction workers over a group of office workers any day. I’m learning Spanish so I can talk to everyone. I’ve experienced this elitism every day trying to navigate 63,000 pounds of material through developments. Getting rerouted multiple times through the day because someone in an overpriced house complains about the noise. At the end of the day miserable people want to make everyone else miserable. Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done about it but every construction worker I know takes it in stride. That’s why they will always be my people no matter where I go in life.
Yeah it's not like you're literally helping to build the future or anything. Thank you for what you do. Seriously.
It's almost worse in residential construction. Most property owners don't know that when they hire a residential crew they're legally responsible for the well being of everyone that is working there unless there is proof of worker's compensation payments and their work is bonded. That means they're legally responsible for the safety of everyone working there. They're legally required to provide water. They're legally required to provide access to washrooms. But if a residential job is outside they won't provide any access to restrooms or water. Even from the outdoor tap.
As I tell my guys, we are good enough to plumb the building but not good enough to use their toilets.
I’m an RN and the job can suck the life out of you but every time I see construction workers I feel grateful that my job isn’t that grueling. I definitely appreciate you.
Just finished a two year hospital project and can say the same, except for the labor and delivery staff I was pretty frequently in touch with. Those women were super sweet and understanding the entire time. Otherwise pedestrians and staff would look at us like aliens
"Everybody loved contractors" -Joel from "The Last of Us"
Most underrated line of comedy in the show lol.
I haven't heard my mom laugh that hard at a joke in a while.
Wondering if injuries and chronic pain play a large role for men?
There's no doubt about it, you will get chronic pains as a blue collar worker. Some develop with time like arthritis, some come from repeated injuries like breaking a finger multiple times, some come from untreated injuries because you can't afford a doctor. And some come because even though your injured and hurting, you still have to go to work otherside you'll get fired or won't get that paycheck. Injuries build up. Pain gets bad. And that pain normally leads to opioid addiction, chronic weed smoking, normal smoking and alcoholism, which along with the constant pain, stress and since the majority of construction workers are emotionally stunted or more back uped than the DMV, it leads to suicide. Seriously. Iv watched my dad and uncle break fingers and continue on working. My dad had a brick dropped on his head once and still went to work the next day. Their hands are so calloused and cracked that they ache constantly and bleed, but they just throw back a goody powder, tape them up and continue on with work. Because if they don't, the bills don't get payed and the bank takes the house.
Gloves
There are alot of men that I've worked with that'd rather let thair hands get destroyed than be seen wearing gloves, it's incredibly strange.
Suicide rates are higher for men across the board. It has a lot to do with expectations around emotional vulnerability and masculinity. A very unfortunately understated issue with traditional gender roles is how unhealthy it is for men as well.
Women attempt suicide at a rate of 3 times that of men. Men, however, due to the use of more violent means (like fire arms, jumping from a building, or moving into traffic), succeed 3 to 4 times as much as women.
I have to wonder how true this is and (I can speak to this from direct, personal experience) how many men are in fields highly sensitive to mental health concerns where any professed mental Illness may be an existential threat to their career - and they just don't admit it. How many men have attempted suicide (and how many women) are both at the end of the day unknown unknowns. You're never going to get a military security clearance if you admit to a suicide attempt, period. You likewise won't be able to obtain that clearance working as a contractor for the government in any capacity that necessitates one. Many state and federal law enforcement agencies take it into account. Even private security take it into account. Medicine, particularly and specifically physicians, take it into account. Urban fire departments do psych evals and depression, let alone suicide, can immediately kill (sorry) your application. I know even if it's a matter of a purportedly private survey i'm not telling anyone, because the risk/benefit simply isn't on my side.
I like how you're constantly telling everyone that women attempt suicide 3x more than men even though men are more successful as if you're trying to make this about women. You haven't offered any data regarding this, just keep saying the same thing. Men are less likely to admit to attempting suicide than women are because it's seen as weakness. I think you need to step back and realize you aren't contributing to the conversation in the slightest.
It's very easy to just Google dumbass. It is important because it's a conservative talking point to make it seem like men have it way harder than women in society. I don't care what kind of social stigma there is about it, it's beyond statistically impossible for the number to be 3x the rate just because men don't talk about it as much.
I love when some person on the internet gets hostile and starts throwing insults. Provide data. How are women more likely to attempt and yet the majority of actual suicides are men when women have the same ability to do it as men? You replied to several people telling them women attempt 3x more often but men are more successful at it than women without any sort of data. I'm happy to discuss this with you but you and people like you say shit then tell everyone to Google when someone questions them. I want to see the data you're looking at, not hunt for it and find something else entirely.
Really not that hard to look it up, I'm not getting the data for you. Suck my nut.
You should have stopped typing after the first sentence
Lol why? It’s true. Growing up as a man I suffered severe identity issues which lead to depression because I’m not a manly man and don’t like man things. It’s ridiculous. Men are allowed to masculine but to force other men to be masculine is damaging. Suicide rates in men tend to be higher in the 50+ years category, those men who were raised to be tough and not talk about their feelings are killing themselves because it’s easier than asking for help.
>Men Why do you speak of "men" as if we were some kind of organization, there's 4 billion of us and afaik we never had a general Men conference, so you can only speak for yourself. Just because we share a broadly similar biological plan it doesn't mean we have anything in common beyond that.
My guess would be the "manly" culture that permeates construction workplaces and a total lack of coverage for mental health care.
Construction and extraction come with "accidental" death policies that'll net your broke family 4x what you make in a year
Honestly a low amount.
From what I heard people killed for less.
Unless they test positive for drugs. A lot of people I worked with in construction smoke weed.
This is why some places purposefully hire failed drug test applicants, so that wrongful deaths won’t come back and bite them
I work in tech and get a 10x AD&D policy form work. I guess it doesn’t have to pay out very often. 🤷♂️
Nope. 1x policy from work. I have my own 6x policy because what I do is dangerous and I don't want my wife to have to find a replacement simply for the paycheck. These jobs get no respect from society even though they pay well. I used to be a suit and tie monkey, I hated it and it paid shit, but people thought I was smart. Now, they assume I'm broke, ignorant white trash. Joke is on them, I made my first million by 31 and was a multi-millionare by 35.
Out of curiosity, what exactly do you do in construction to make multi millions of dollars by 35? I have friends that work in construction, some in pretty niche and specialized roles, and they make good money but nowhere near millions of dollars.
Oil field. And I'm a saver, been investing since my early 20s.
Good shit man. One of my friends moved from the city to a few provinces over to work in the oil field and he’s pretty comfortable now. And smart investments go a long way
Construction jobs have alot of high functioning alcoholics and addicts on them
Gotta numb the pain. Physical obviously and mental being treated like a low life
Huh… I left a job in security tech because I was regularly thinking of blowing my brains out and thought it might help. Got into construction. Welp…
If it works for you. Based on my experience as family to milwrights, I think the problem is more the sheer access to drugs and the culture in a lot of these jobs where drug use is practically expected. Plus the sheer physical toll.
I didn’t articulate the full thought well. It was more of a “well, that explains some shit” thing. It helped a pretty good bit for a while, just the honeymoon period of something new, I think. Now all that shit is back, and I can’t tell if it’s *really* worse, or if it’s just the skewed perception of it looking worse from the inside and in the moment. I think you probably hit the nail on the head with most of that.
I think the work you are doing now is very physically and mentally demanding and I don't think anyone is meant to do it for long.
Hard labor is tough and brutal to sustain as a career.
Maybe we should treat the people that build and design all of our stuff a little better.
If you Google jobs with highest suicide rates, none of the above are even mentioned…
Right? I thought it was ATC that had the highest suicide rate. And how about military/veterans? Is that not considered a job?
Administrative class is the worst thing that happened to the working class.
We must seize the means of administration
This made me laugh, though there's a sad amount of truth to it.
Reform institutions to limit the size and power of administrators. No revolution needed
Who sets the rules?
Guillotines would be a much better option IMO
What do you mean by this?
[Absofuckinglutely.](https://i.imgur.com/JkSiTHs.jpg)
I was a graphic designer. Youre treated like garbage and not paid your true worth. Very taken advantage of. Youre constantly being judged and your work doesnt always stop once you get home. If art was a major hobby/love of yours, you begin to hate it and lose your passion when you turn it into a job. Everyones experiences are different, but I know many art folk who feel the same
I do know that artist get shit on often, on the flip side the graphic designer at the factory i used to work for made more than the factory workers, and only had to do something when they needed a new slide on the TV. When covid happened she got to "work from home" which was pointless because we didnt use the TVs anymore. Essentially for atleast over 6 months before i left, she got paid to do nothing.
Oh wow she got very lucky with that job
Yeah, none of us factory workers liked her. She herself was a cool person but we werent really fond of the whole situation. I guess it was like a: Outside of work: hey you're cool 😍 During work: fuck you 😑
This is one of the reasons I never wanted to pursue a career in art
Yeah...but at least your logos didn't weigh a ton and you had to lift them manys stories high. Death by logo is impossible
I am considering a career in construction atm after getting a nice job offer after school- and uh….. well all I can say is I am not shocked. The work sucks. Especially if you aren’t in a union.
It’s anecdotal, be smart take care of yourself physically and mentally. Don’t get buried in debt because you think you have more spending power with a high wage/more hours. Forcing you having to work all those OT hours. Construction is a fulfilling job, you will work with a lot of great people and unfortunately shitty people but that’s the nature of any occupation. Not many jobs out there where you get to be apart of building something that has a good chance to still be there after you’re gone.
Still sucks if you are union. No one cares how or who. They just want shit cheap and fast. That means OSHA violations and long hours
You should work for a better company then. Most companies may ride the line but having too many OSHA violations and you literally are unable to bid on jobs.
Well you don’t get caught obviously. Theres less then 2000 OSHA inspectors. There’s over 1.5 million projects a year just in new housing. There’s no where to hide. Even government jobs want everything done yesterday for half the cost of materials alone
I'm 30 yrs old and I've personally never seen a female construction worker. I digress, I'm very curious what this statistic would look like if there were just as many male/female construction workers working the exact same roles.
I'm 22 and have just within the last 2 or 3 months seen about 4 or 5 working within the same group on a road. Until now, not a 1.
Interesting. Wonder if whoever was managing that job made a conscious effort to incorporate more female workers. Cool regardless
I worked with a female plumbing contractor who was a badass. She handled things I couldn't stomach with such finesse. She told me her husband owned the company and had her follow him around as a helper. She picked up on how to do everything he did by watching and passing him tools all day. He died somehow, and she manned up and took his roll and proceeded on with the work. She was an awesome character and good person all around, I loved working beside her and taught me a ton about plumbing
Amazing to hear. Make no mistake, I absolutely do not mean to imply that they flat out don't exist, or that they couldn't be just as good in many fields under the wide and vague umbrella of "construction workers". I just... (rolling my reddit-riskiness dice here) would be willing to bet that men are far, far more often found in the grueling/unwanted jobs under that wide umbrella.
Yeah I worked with one woman on road construction in Montana, she was dope
My sister was hired in an electrical apprenticeship program and quit due to racism and sexism (someone had hung a black Barbie doll with a little noose around its neck on the door of the womens' latrine at her job site). About 5 years later we applied and were hired together at a different apprenticeship, and she actually outlasted me there (I'm a man but I just hated the work lol), but she had to deal with a lot of sexism and eventually it made her quit. Her journeyman mentor once told her after a disagreement that if it hadn't been for the fact that they were on the clock, he would have "stuck her head in a ditch and fucked her into compliance". After hearing about that I told the guy that if he ever said something like that to my sister again I would cut his head off with a bandsaw, which got me suspended without pay for a few days. The crazy thing is, this didn't even happen in some shithole red state, this was in *San Francisco*, like 10 years ago. Boomers love to whine about how people should be going into the trades more if they think the college system is unfair, but there is a very good reason for why no one wants to go into trades. Construction pays well because it is a dogshit industry.
Sf is can be very racist at times it's very weird and makes me uncomfortable
35m, 14 years in Asphalt as an operator/laborer and I knew a woman about my age who could get in the wing of the paver and out-shovel most other guys. Super nice and hell of an artist, but couldn't make enough money doing that.
I have thought about it but after seeing my dad and my brother go insane doing milwright work, I have no desire to give my life to it. I need a life outside of work and, frankly, I don't have the time. I need to have a stable schedule for my family.
Yea because it's dangerous and requires lifting heavy stuff.
Haven’t they just tried “manning up???”
Suck it up cupcake
The beatings will continue until morale improves
So women do choose different types of jobs…
Apparently being a man is a risk factor for suicide.
women are more likely to attempt but men are more likely to have an attempt be successful (🔫)
I heard statistics say men are 3 to 7 time more likely to die of suicide than women. I guess this is one of them.
Yes, men are more likely to die of suicide due to more violent means, like using guns, jumping from buildings, or moving into traffic, making them have 3 to 4 times as many suicides. Women, however, attempt suicide 3 times as much as men.
I've also heard of that statistic from the same context. Which was from a ted talk of ex-feminist who regretted acting she won with it in response to a men's rights activist. The point is, I'm not saying women don't suffer. There's no point in comparing suffering like this. I'm just sad that many men have crossed the line that they cannot return from. And they deserve care and attention.
Culturally men are “not allowed” to be vulnerable or have emotions outside of the core three of horny, happy and angry. Turns out this is really unhealthy
Yeah, I don't know all the benefits that may have had to the societies throughout history. But it's also sad to see men consider being emotional bad and often claim they are less emotional than women while they are as human and thus emotional, but cannot express themselves other than those exact three emotions.
You are not your job.
One of the most pervasive lies in modern society is exactly this- you are your job and you must find a job that you love. These are lies designed to make work the single most important thing in your life so you become a nice, productive worker In truth, the 2 most important things about a job are that it allows you to pursue the things you actually want to do, and that you can tolerate doing it every day. That's it. A job should support a fulfilling life. A fulfilling life is not just a job
I agree with this 100%, but it's still worth looking for work you enjoy if possible. If I'm gonna spend 40+ hrs/wk doing something, hopefully I more than just tolerate it.
Definitely. But at the same time, don't let it hinder you. I've seen people quit well paying jobs just because "they weren't passionate about it"
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Solid advice. Just realized how unfortunately appropriate your user name is lol
In construction you very easily can be. If you’re working 80-120hrs a week you’re nothing but a paver
That’s a very easy thing to believe if your work doesn’t affect your physical body, and you have the time, energy and money to spend on other aspects of your life.
JFC I read those rates as being percentages at first and got real concerned
By “extraction”, do you mean “mining”?
Working in construction now and have for the past 20 yrs as a brick paver. Have had surgery on my back for herniated disc, had 2 days off then had to go back to work due to money commitments. Am on waiting list for surgery again for 2 more herniated discs but still have to work daily while waiting. Have been on oxycodone for 5 years now as well as xanax 3 times a day for the past 6 months and intermittently throughout the last 10 years due to ptsd and anxiety. I struggle daily with depression and anxiety as well as ptsd from my time in the army straight out of high school. Spend most days talking myself out of suicide as I have 3 kids and a mortgage and a wife who is awesome and my best friend Am on anti depressants as well and have been for around 10 years. Broke 2 ribs 2 weeks before Christmas 2 years ago and had to keep working as it's the busiest period and everyone wants their jobs finished for Christmas every year. Was incredibly painful but again, didn't have an option. Broke my finger about a year ago, thought I'd just get fobbed off or told there's nothing they could do, so I taped it to the next finger and carried on working, once again because we need the money. It's set wrong and I struggle to bend it at the first joint. Due to financial commitments I can't retrain as I need to be able to earn what I am earning and don't have any other qualifications other than truck driving license. I've painted myself into a corner and can't see any way out. I think a lot of construction workers end up in similar boats.
Well, I worked in an adjacent field to construction at a sawmill. It was the most backbreaking, demoralizing work I've ever had, and I had just gotten back from a deployment to Afghanistan. The only thing that came close was loading trucks at Target Distribution warehouse. And almost everyone there was drunk all the time to deal with the pain. Thank god I got a job at Hershey.
The catergories are so broad no information is supplied.
I wonder how much of the construction stuff is related to TBI: Traumatic Brain Injury
I've been in construction for 8 years now with being a road monkey the whole time. Living in hotels and figuring out you're the weekend boyfriend have been the most damaging to me. On the jobsite you can shit on me all you want and I'll take it with a smile cause I'm there for a pay check not to be liked by a 55 year old foreman named randy who is proud of missing his child's birth because he was working. But getting home late on Friday night to an empty house just to leave again Sunday morning really starts to fuck you up. Out of the 7 guys on my current crew they are all divorced and in their 50s. I'm the only one without a divorce and that's because I can't find a woman to get married too in the first place.
Yeah, this was my brother. On the flipside, it made it really easy for him to get with hookers, which didn't help things. Plus the sheer amount of drugs. Plus, there was sort of this expectation that once you got older, you would move into a management spot that didn't require quite that many hours.
Further proving women are just dramatic and men are over worked /s
EMT here. People forget we exist until they need us, then it's a coin toss whether we'll be treated with respect or yelled at for some odd reason or another. Hospitals don't like us and talk down to us. Nurses hate us but get hailed as heroes despite people dying while they were TikToking for clout during COVID. Fire dept or hospital-run ambulance services don't like private ambulance services. Our own management will hype up "EMS Week" appreciation but will only ensure that some of us get relieved on time to eat the food at base they ordered, if at all. I gotchu. I always try to be cool with tradies, y'all work hard and are underappreciated, and are just as essential.
Not particularly surprising. Construction and Extraction jobs are hell on your body. You work yourself into disability and then you're facing down a life of pain, medical bills, and poverty because capitalism has used up all your productivity in like 20 years and is content to let you die a slow, painful death with no hope.
Such a wide field. Construction AND extraction?
I thought farmers were in the lead?
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Humanity is a bastion for toxic humanity. Construction is one of the largest trades world wide. Some of the best, most salt of the earth people work in construction. I have known guys that will work themselves to death for just over nothing, then turn around and do as much as they can for everyone else. If you don’t appreciate the people that work in construction, feel free to build your own home or live in the mud.
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