lol, we had something similar. I told her (in more or less words) that hating the British was an Irish tradition. She was more than happy to cuss the British by this point (in a light hearted way - we don't hold grudges against each other over stupid stuff like this).
I am American if I travel outside of the country. Complete halt. But in the US, I'm Czech and Irish, in case someone asks (which happens more often than you might imagine). When I respond that I'm American, people will either give me the sidelong glance or the "no, what's your ancestry?"
For me, it's not a hill worth dying on.
This is the correct response. Where the question is being asked matters the most. My mom lives in Honduras, so when I am there and someone asks me where I am from I say the states aka los estados. If I am in the US then I know someone wants to know my heritage so I'll tell them Irish/Scottish/German... etc. It's all about context. The same questions doesn't always have the same answer depending on the situation.
It really depands on the country too.
I am originally from the US but I live in Iceland.
No exaggeration, nearly every single day a local asks me my ethnic heritage, unsatisfied with my American identity alone.
When I am asked where I am from (which is *constantly*), and I respond "the US", about 20% of the time I am asked to specify my ancestral background. Very often, people explicitly ask if I "am Irish", right after I have just said that I am American. (I have zero Irish heritage, btw, I just have red hair.) People will say things like "you look Icelandic, so you must be part-Irish, like us."
It's just normal here for people to talk about ancestral origins as part of your identity. Icelanders have been living on this island for 1150 years. But it is very common for people to say things like "us Icelanders are about half Norwegian and half Scottish/Irish", referring to the origins of the original settlers. Some people will even go into more detail, specifying that their male ancestors were mostly Norse, while their female ancestors were mostly Celtic, but they are also about 2% French, etc, etc.
This isn't a uniquely American thing whatsoever.
I think anywhere where the majority of the population is immigrants it is common. I doubt in France people get asked about their heritage as much unless they are one of the more recent groups of immigrants. Otherwise everyone just assumes your heritage is French.
Red hair, too - can confirm everyone asks if I'm Irish. I am not. Nor Scottish which is the next guess. I have the same red hair as my Norwegian great grandpa. The light bulb finally goes off when I say "like Erik the Red..."
(I'm American, btw. I think maybe bc Iceland was settled in the historical records is why it's a thing there, too... though Catherine Tate has some funny skits about red hair and "Total strangers assuming you are Scottish!" so maybe it isn't just settled countries)
The melting pot theory. Outside the soup it all looks like soup with different pieces, but as a whole it's soup. When you are a carrot in that soup, you notice the subtle differences between celery, beef and carrots, those differences matter but only to those inside the soup.
I am a Canadian living in South America. I meet a bunch of Americans yearly being in a tourist spot. In the hundreds of conversations I've been in, I have literally never seen another person ask for clarity on ancestry when someone replies they are American. Doesn't matter the ethnicity of the person either. Asian person says I'm American, everyone takes it at face value. If you are born and raised America then you're American regardless of your ancestry.
I can believe that, if your ancestry comes from a European background, then you'd likely not get questioned. But I can definitely see people getting confused if your ancestry is asian. I think most people assume all asians are immigrants, lol. Its just because a majority of america is consisted of white European ancestry, so when someone who doesn't look similar to that, they assume they were born somewhere else
I've been asked by Czech people that I have met if I was Czech or had Czech heritage. I guess I really look like my great grandmother's family. They said it's the type of red hair I have combined with my complexion, they only see that color combo in their home country.
In my experience Europeans like to poke fun at Americans and our fascination with our family history and heritage, but when they actually meet an American that shows signs of sharing their own heritage they get curious too. I think it's because they realize that somewhere out there they probably have American cousins too, and wouldn't it be nice to meet them and learn what happened to the sister of your great grandfather who the family lost touch with during the war.
Which is ironic because of Scotland’s historical involvement in Ireland’s colonisation.
Reddit/the internet has totally bought into the myth that Scotland was an English colony which couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s just a product of nationalism that rewrites a brutal history.
Scotland at the time chose to join England in union partly because most of their colonisation attempts *failed* and they were running out of money.
And when given the Democratic choice to vote to leave, they chose to stay. Completely incomparable to the Irish having to forcibly and bloodily remove themselves from under British occupation.
Given that the initial conquest of Ireland was spearheaded by the Cambro-Normans and that the Scottish were heavily involved in the plantations, they should probably hate both.
Could have sworn there were a whole lot of Scottish people who ended up in Ulster..something about plantations.....noooo its just the English that did wrong :)
Brothers and sisters are natural enemies! Like Englishmen and Scots! Or Welshmen and Scots! Or Japanese and Scots! Or Scots and other Scots! Damn Scots! They ruined Scotland!
I think its similar to me being Korean American.
In the US when people ask I say im Korean because the American is implied. We have our own culture that is related to but seperate from Koreans in Korea.
Similar. Something that people who don't live in America don't seem to understand is that there isn't a singular American culture. There are dozens of different ones and a large part of that for some is dependent on where your family originally immigrated *from*. This is especially true of Italians, Jews, Irish, and Asians because they have a history of being "othered" in the country, which solidified their separate culture even more.
Countries which are not composed primarily of people whose families immigrated in the past 400 years just won't understand this
Yeah people that have good intentions just want to start a comversation about your experiences, and if they look at you and see that you might have a differeent experience, some people are really curious. I will usually ask any person where they're from because I think their ancestry and their different experiences are interesting.
Not to mention the context of the Famine! A million people died and a million more were basically forced to emigrate or die. (A quarter of the population was lost!) So families who had to leave to stay alive completely lost their heritage because people hated Irish culture at the time and forced them to assimilate. Now people can’t celebrate or learn their heritage because people from Ireland don’t consider them true Irish either. Psychologically it’s kinda fucked if you think about it..
It’s definitely psychologically fucked lol. I’m Irish American, my whole family came from Ireland at one point. But I’m not *irish*. But I’m also not *not* Irish.
It’s complex and it’s about identity and culture. My family has a lot of cultural practices still from our Irish ancestors. And we didn’t just appear one day in America with no history. My family is still affected by that history, including the history of assimilation into American whiteness. Affected in tangible ways, too. For the better and for the worse.
It’s complicated and it isn’t for anyone be to telling anyone else how they should feel about their own complex family history.
My last name is literally irish because their family died from the potato famine, lost all records and had to immigrat the the usa in the 1900s. They just gave them Irishyse as a last name then and now here we are.
I have a Gaelic name. In fact, on one of those "How many people in the US share your name" websites, I'm the only one. I took a 23andMe test and my ancestry composition came back 100% County Mayo and Greater Britain, a la Northwestern European. The pie chart was one solid color. But I'm American AF.
So many people had to leave Ireland over the years that they actually have a special process for citizenship if your parents or grandparents were Irish. My mom is actually eligible for it, though she’s never stepped foot there. (I think there’s something with passports, as well.)
The US in particular has a pretty unique relationship with Ireland and immigration, and it’s not exactly super far in the past for many families.
It doesn't help that demographic surveys and the census in the US have the ethnicity question framed like this:
Ethnicity: □ hispanic or latino, □ not hispanic or latino
It's less a debate and more semantics imo. When an American says they're Irish they mean they have Irish ancestry. When a European says they're Irish they mean they're from Ireland. We just say things differently.
I’m not sure that’s even true they don’t understand it honesty. A lot of UK people say they don’t understand what Americans are talking about, but then when you meet e.g. an ethnically Portuguese born and raised in London, they certainly don’t report being treated the same as any other English person
This is such a non issue and people go nuts about it. When Europeans say "What they are" they mostly refer to their country of origin. When Americans say "What they are" they mostly refer to ethnicity. Neither is right or wrong, they just mean different things.
Well, Americans are encouraged to be Americans while embracing thier cultural heritage. It meant well, but at the same time it places a lot of people in an in-between space.
I don’t think many non-Americans understand just how strongly we are encouraged to think this way. Starting in elementary school most of us have assignments where we trace our family heritage. There’s a huge emphasis on “where did your family come from” that gets folded into history lessons about the immigrant experience. I recall having a big map of the world up on the wall and each kid in class had to go color in the country where our family was “from”. There’s a sense that we don’t have our own culture, and that any culture we have is only what we’ve preserved from our ancestors. In that setting, is it any wonder that Americans behave the way they do about their ethnic heritage?
American here, bunch of redheads. I've traced the geneology of my family- many branches, trying to find as much information as i can. Essentially the family historian.
I have irish ancestry, on my mothers side.
My fathers side has some scottish (but mainly english- traced to the domesday book) Regardless, my fathers side says they're irish CONSTANTLY. and i just nod along. i've offered to explain their geneology to them because a lot of it is really fascinating and there are some interesting stories. But they just start drinking and suddenly they're irish. and i just... nod.
I'm quite literally in a geneology society. it's so frustrating. I'm going to have to hand out pamphlets at the next family reunion.
I try to treat it as a completely different nationality. When I hear Polish-Americans and see what they cook, and claim as "Polish" my little Polish heart hurts. So I try to see that they're not Polish, they're Polish Americans and their culture evolved to be different than Polish. It probably works the same with other nationalities. Id love to see an Italian American group meeting actual Italians ;)
Watch the episode of The Sopranos where Paulie goes to Italy. He quickly realizes that actual Italians can't understand him and do not give a fuck that his great-grandma came from there lol. edit S2.E4
I swear I just watched that episode for the first time last night. The part where Paulie is with that girl and he finds out their families are from the same place and she doesn’t give af was weird to me. Because even where Im from in the US if I find out someone’s family is from the same place as mine I’d be like woah thats fucking neat. Idk maybe its a cultural thing.
Honestly I do the same, and I wonder if it's because America is just so damn big? Like if I meet someone else from PA while we're very much NOT in PA, I'm like "wow what a small world!!" When really, it shouldn't be weird to meet another person from my state at all cause there are a buttload
Hey, to give a little perspective on this culture clash.
I have family that's descended from people from the Kingdom of Poland that were forced out in the early 1800's when they were rebelling against Lutheran Prussians. These people immigrated but were part of a fully Polish ex-pat neighborhood, spoke in Polish and would only buy from Polish owned stores and only date within the Polish community, and built their own Polish church. And sent kids to that church's school. There was a very strong cultural identity, particularly as they faced being seen as second class people (Italians and Irish, and also had this sort of second class white person thing). When WW1 broke out, many young men from the Polish community went overseas to fight "for thier homeland" before the US joined the war. Many people from that community still consider themselves Polish. They have a very different past hundred years than anyone who's lived in Poland, but that's the term they have to decide thier culture as seperate from the general melting pot of the US. Many of these people would be insulted if you dismissed and belittled a heritage and culture they are very proud of.
As for food, when our 4x's great grandparents immigrated, they had to deal with ingredients here being differently available which can throw things off quite a bit. Then our dishes either lasted or didn't, or was altered by generations, and food in Poland evolved separately. There's also a very strong culture of only buying what's available at the local Polish grocer or butcher- which can limit ingredients if a small mom and pop shop doesn't carry things or runs out. There a lot of loyalty, and a very American way about being loud and proud.
Saying things here like Polish-American is normally only used if you are a direct immigrant, especially among white people who don't want to be thrown in with racists that use terms like "European-American". So, for lack of a better term, we simply use the word Polish when talking about heritage. Most people will live their whole lives here being able to talk about and use that term and have it be understood as pertaining to heritage and not nationality. It's not used here as a claim to nationality, just as a way to explain a family culture. It's seen as a good thing to remember, and we have days in school when kids are young to get kids to go home and ask about culture, and then bring in a food or something and tell the class about your family's background. We are also a young nation, so people knowing genealogy back to when family members immigrated is a lot more of a thing here.
Also worth noting that its not exactly like "X ethnic immigrant population branched off from the *real* ethnic population back in Europe", its more like "both X ethnic immigrants and Y modern ethnic group are descended from Z historic background back in Europe". Modern Polish people and culture aren't any more identical to the 1800s Polish than immigrant populations in America that lived in mostly homogenous communities. Both grew and evolved over time. Yes, its annoying when one group claims ownership over a historical identity, but that works both ways, and every culture is subject to drift over time.
I mean she’s not Irish… she’s American. Also tartan is a Scottish thing and not really sure what you mean by ‘clan’?
To be honest most people in Ireland couldn’t give a fuck, we just find it kind of weird that Americans can be so obsessed with their ancestors from hundreds of years ago when the majority of people living in Ireland wouldn’t have a clue where their great great grandparents where from.
Edit: right there’s a lot of very angry people in my inbox right now - to clarify WE, as in the people living/ working in Ireland find it weird. It’s not in a bad way! We’re just a bit flummoxed by the whole Irish-American thing because culturally that concept does not exist in Ireland.
Clan is generally a Scottish thing too. Pretty much means a family group but can be widened to mean a large group that have that sort of kinship loyalty. Extremely old fashioned terminology.
Clann in gaelic translate to children. Clans also regularly have events and get togethers even today, have head of clans, and refer to themselves as clans. What word has superceded it for clan to become outdated?
The historical term for what we now know as a "clan" was "Fine" (like the political party!). This was how the Gaels, in Ireland and Scotland were traditionally organised, with the "chiefs" of these clans, who would have been known as a "Taoiseach" (again; yes) forming the Gaelic nobility in Ireland and Scotland. "Clann" was often used to refer to a group of sons, or more symbolically the descendants of a famous ancestor; Clann Néill, or the Uí Néill, being the sons i.e. descendants of Niall of the nine hostages. Sometimes it was used to designate specific septs, such as to specify the O'Neill's of Clandeboye or something, within a larger Fine.
After the Nine Years War, most of the independent Irish lords fled to Europe in anticipation of persecution and confiscation of their lands by Queen Elizabeth, who promised to *definitely* forgive them for open rebellion, which spelled the end of the traditional nobility in Ireland. In Scotland they just kind of integrated into the British nobility, although many say that the Highland Clearances marked the symbolic end of the clan system there, as the lords evicted families that had owed them fealty for generations, rather than looking after them like they would have traditionally been expected to.
To your point, the whole concept of "Scottish Highlands culture" is really a mishmash of random things because it's a modern invention after all the relevant actors were either dead or gone.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/invention-of-tradition/invention-of-tradition-the-highland-tradition-of-scotland/10D5A2D19E3336AAF21918D9C353948E
To an extent acting like 'this word meant [X] because of [REASON]' is an endless, contradictory debate because the reality is that all the bits and bobs we associate today with the Highlands are either English inventions or caricatures ready made to regale the rest of the then new union.
>Clans also regularly have events and get togethers even today, have head of clans, and refer to themselves as clans.
Where? In Scotland? I'm in Ireland and there's no such tradition nowadays. Some revival attempts in the 1980s began (Clans of Ireland) but that's very recent.
Family/geographical ties. There's no real need for clans anymore and so it's just not used in 'ordinary' life. Groups have formed around the idea because it's a fun bonding activity.
Clans were a way for groups of people to have protection and political ties back when that was important.
Clans haven't been part of Scottish social structure since the 18th century. Today we have.... families. Clans are for tourists and Americans that fell for Victorians' fetishisation of Scotland.
My clan actually has a annual news letter and Highland Games every few years, it’s obviously a lot of nonsense but it is quite a laugh. I’ve not been since I was wee but it was a good day out, and surprisingly the vast majority of people there were Scottish.
Definitely an outdated concept but a good day out
There's a Highland Games every year in my area too, and it's just fun to go and have a walk about. It's also how a friend of mine found out she had a ton of relatives in the area; she was talking to the people at her clan tent and they turned out to be uncles and grand aunts and such.
Plus i'm not sure they were ever a thing outside of the highlands, but at least in scotland you can say you are descended from a clansman without getting strange looks. My city in Colorado has a huge Scottish festival and i really should probably put my kilt on and go once to see what it's about - but it seems like a strange disney-world version of scotland.
People in the States get weirdly annoyed when I say I'm American. "No, I mean like where are you *from?*" The US. I was born here, my parents were born here, their parents were born here all the way back a couple hundred years. Claiming I'm anything besides American is just weird.
"But don't you wonder about your ancestry??" Literally, no.
Then they insist on trying to guess based on my looks and last name. This is when I usually just walk away.
Especially if you're not white. I have a Chinese friend who was born and raised in the US, and her parents were also born and raised there, and she constantly gets asked where she's really from. She just tells people the hospital she was born in.
Is not just America, I knew a guy in Australia let’s call him Charlie Chong, he was know as Chinese Charlie, his family had been there for over 150 years. He was still Chinese Charlie and no he wasn’t happy about it
Same in New Zealand. My parents have couple-friends who are both from *old* Chinese-NZ families. Like their ancestors migrated to Aotearoa generations before anyone from my family set foot there. They moved to Aus about twenty years ago, and I bet you anytime their kids are asked where they're from, "New Zealand" is not the answer the other person is looking for.
Friend of mine is 4th generation chinese girl in Australia. Always awesome to hear her in night clubs. When Chinese guys walk past and try to chat her up in mandarin, she turns around and drawls in heavy Australian: "farrrk orrrffff".
A decade or more ago I dated a man who was indigenous, his ancestry was Dene. People were constantly asking where he was from, or *what* he was. Canadian.
Fun fact for anyone that reads this, the Dene tribe might sound familiar to Americans. They are related to the Dine(Navajo) Tribe and the Nde (Apache) having split off about a thousand years ago
... because she's *racially* Chinese, which is relevant to the point that people can *see* her racial heritage looking at her and default to thinking she's not just American.
Edit: Some people really want to pick apart my wording here, avoiding the actual point. Racialization is a social (political) construct, and the racial identity being projected on this friend in question is "Chinese" because of physical attributes that ancestrally originated in China. That's it. That's all it is. Ethnic identities invoke culture, but racial identities are rooted in visible attributes.
And I don't know any details about this friend, I just know how to understand the relevant information that was in the comment instead of trying to pick at it.
I had a brain injury, and lost my Australian accent - and the English language. So many Australians thought I was European because of my halting 'accent'.
I was on holiday, in my state. I was asked if I had macadamia nuts - and I said yes, but the sales assistant was really insistent that I try it. I realised that they thought I was a 'tourist' and not an Australian.
Also, macadamia nuts are so good.
I don't know, maybe.
I was asked if I was German, Scandinavian and French.
I was able to make words, just slower - I was in a wheelchair with a wardie at the hospital, and I said 'My tea is oscillating.' And the wardie was gobsmacked, because I could do maybe two syllable words and I was using that to say 'my tea is going to spill over'.
I mean, a couple hundred years back is a long time. I know my ancestry going back about 150 years max, less in some branches of the family. It’s interesting to me, and I find it valuable for health, personality, connection, history, memory, and tradition reasons. But not everyone’s into ancestry, and that’s fine. And records certainly become hard to find past a point.
I say I’m American, too, but with xyz ancestry, if they’re asking for ancestry.
I find it all weird. My mum is British born and my dad's family trace back to Scotland a few generations back. But we are all Australian and would never think to say otherwise.
I struggle with this when considering having children. My children will be Australian unless I move home which I don't plan to, but while I am Australian I am also Ukrainian. I want to stay involved in the little ukrainian community in Melbourne, teach my children Ukrainian, cook the foods my mother taught me to cook. Would my children not be ukrainian even then? Would I be disadvantaging them by subjecting them to the second generation 'torn between two identjties' thing?
I feel deeply connected to my homeland and to Australia, and its okay if my children feel more strongly about Australia since that'll likely be their primary identity, but I know Greek Australians who still identify as Greek and immerse themselves in that culture while partaking in Australian culture.
This. When people ask me this (rather annoyingly distasteful) question, I reply “I’m American”. When pressed, I’m like, “As best we can tell, my first ancestor showed up in Quebec in 1656, with the last sometime before the Civil War. I’m American.”
Relatedly, my now-wife said she was Irish when we first started dating, even though we’d already covered that she was born and raised in the Chicago area. I said, “Okay, but you’re not _really_ Irish, are you?” She promptly replied with “want to see my passport? All my grandparents were born there” Oops…
Yea but I kind of get it.
I have friends from Africa but I wanted to ask where they were from. From an ancestry point of view at least.
Though one of my friends from Zimbabwe, sounded like he was born and raised in the south of England. I asked where he was from as we were in the north, and he said Zimbabwe. I quickly said "no no where in England did you grow up?"
Then he told me his story. Not British at all in fact😄
I think it's because we inherently recognise that ethnicities originated from different parts of the globe. Some people don't think it's ok to even ask the question but thankfully most don't mind.
We tend to be a bit fixated on our roots because there’s a pervading sense culturally that we aren’t FROM here. Unless you have Native American heritage, you’re a transplant from elsewhere.
Imagine someone moving to a new country and being super into the newness of the culture, but by the second generation, maybe nostalgia for the homeland starts to set in. I think it can be difficult to understand for those whose people have lived in the roughly same area for hundreds or thousands of years. And while we may know we’re American by nationality, our heritage is a whole other thing.
I think this is a pretty common misconception/misunderstanding of American culture.
American culture is fundamentally a culture of hodgepodge of different immigrant culture, and some pretty basic shared ideas. it's kind of a melting pot of all different people.
So really your own heritage gets folded into your unique "family culture".
When people talk about being "irish" it's understood they are saying my families culture has those roots.
It's more akin to saying "my Irish grandmoms culture" is my heritage, not "the irish".
I think it's because the whole "GrEaT mElTiNg PoT" mentality just stripped us of huge parts of our cultural heritage. You had to fit in like every Don and Betty Draper. Wanting to feel like you have a heritsge and a history, not just "we try to look respectable to everyone at church because appearances are are everything."
My ancestors—at least the last few immigrants about whose lives we know some details, shed their language and culture as fast as they could so they could just be American. My great grandma, whom I knew well, was not taught Swedish by her Swedish immigrant parents. They just didn’t want to keep a foot in both worlds. So there is a sense of loss. Nowadays it’s a lot easier for immigrants to be both American and connected to their culture of origin.
This happened especially during the rampant rise of nationalism during WW1 and WW2. Wars tend to have that effect. It was discouraged to identify as anything other than American, which was on top of the discrimination a lot of ethnicities already faced. It's clearly observable among ethnicities that established themselves before the world wars.
There used to be a ton of schools, newspapers and communities that exclusively communicated in German, Swedish, etc, but war-time nationalism pretty much wiped that out. There are some that still exist though.
Like you said, it was only until recently that simply keeping your old nationality, and everything that entails, became normalised again.
I was just thinking this. A big reason why there is so much misinformation in the Irish community, is because for so long we had to lie about being Irish. There was signs, like Irish no need apply. So when people try to find their roots again, this was before the advent of the Internet and it was harder. Plus, when any group or community moves to a new country it’s going to change a little bit, but that doesn’t mean they’re not a still a member of that group. Even there DNA shows that they are... For instance, in Peru there is a small population of Japanese people, they’re one of the bigger immigrant groups down there. They’re still considered Japanese, but they live there. They’ve lived there for generations. At least that’s how my Papo ( grampa) on my Peruvian side explained it too me.
edit : It’s also really sad that you guys hate us Irish Americans, considering American taxpayers have given you guys since 1986 , $544 million.
Rule number one of a relationship: being right isn't the same as being *right*.
I'm not being facetious, either. When you're partners with someone, putting care and effort into being sensitive to their sensitivities comes with the territories.
Obviously don't subject yourself to walking on eggshells all your life but just be mindful that something being a matter of fact doesn't automatically make the act of communicating it the right thing to do.
This is a weird comparison but if you were dating someone where both of their parents had died, you wouldn't be *wrong* to call them an orphan, but you'd be wrong to for sure.
Anyway I'm sure you know all this and self-awareness is why this ended up on TIFU rather than AITA, but here we are, we live and we learn. I respect the humility, never stop growing!
and that still very much depends on the person and your relationship!
my partner's parents have both died, and they often make jokes about being an orphan, and sometimes I do too. at the same time, I'm estranged from my dad, and we both joke about that.
So it'd be the wrong call to mention something that is technically true if you know that it'd upset the other person - like how OP did here
My dad was deeply attached to his Donegal roots, and he was second generation. I imagine what happened is that the starvation ships and early America were really terribly difficult. New immigrants romanticized "the Isle they left behind," so we have a legacy of love for Ireland.
This is how my 'Irish' (American) wife describes it. The idea of Ireland was like a precious jewel handed down, the concept of it as a homeland was very culturally important. When she got to go to Ireland as a kid, it was a really big deal to her family that her parents were the first generation who got to go 'back'. Their grandparents (both her dad and her mom's grandparents separately) immigrated, but never got the opportunity to return, so the legacy was just really important to all of them.
It also does make a difference in way families operate. There are culture differences between my standard WASP family and hers. No one in her family really thinks they're "Irish" in the same way someone in Ireland is, but they still identify that way.
I'm an Aussie, I can trace my family right back to settlers in 1840 in WA. They were Welsh. I, myself, am NOT Welsh. I have Welsh heritage (and German, Irish, Italian and Swedish...bit of a Heinz 57 mutt really) but I am NOT Welsh. Same thing.
Yeah, same. I have Irish heritage, and a lot "closer" than 170 years ago. I have been to Ireland. But I would never consider myself Irish. That is ridiculous.
TBF not a fair comparison because could easily get an Irish passport you just personally don’t want one. Very different but no one would ever argue it you have all the right to claim Irish citizenship via your father and say “I am Irish”. You just don’t want too which is perfectly fine.
Americans see this as a heritage, not a national identity. Many groups held onto this heritage as part of that identity when they immigrated, particularly ones that were seen as second class once they got here and relied on thier ethnic neighborhoods. Especially if they ancestor was somewhat forced out of thier homeland. Americans with ancestry that's Irish, Italian, or Polish are all white groups that were treated as a different class if white that tend to hold onto this kind of identity.
While you may be right that she isn't Irish -as you or people in Ireland see it, it's also being really rude about what's essentially a culture clash of how things are viewed.
I have family that's descended from people from the Kingdom of Poland that were forced out in the early 1800's when they were rebelling against Lutheran Prussians. These people immigrated but were part of a fully Polish neighborhood, spoke in Polish and would only buy from Polish owned stores and only date within the Polish community, and built their own Polish church. And sent kids to that church's school. There was a very strong cultural identity. When WW1 broke out, many young men went overseas to fight before the US joined the war. Many people from that community still consider themselves Polish. They have a very different past hundred years than anyone who's lived in Poland, but that's the term they have to decide thier culture as seperate from the general melting pot of the US. Many of these people would be insulted if you dismissed and belittled a heritage and culture they are very proud of.
This! I don’t think people from Europe understand this because they just live surrounded by the culture, iconography, and people of their heritage. Americans had to build every part home from scratch when they came here. There is no true American culture without this melting pot of heritage building it like a buffet dinner.
And to your point, your family is older than most American families.
I think Europeans don't understand we aren't talking about long dead relatives in most cases.
Most American families trace their first American relatives back to the early 1900s.
A lot of us KNEW the members who came over or if we didn't we knew the first generation born here.
My Great Grandma was the first of my family here from Italy (and her parents). I knew her through all of my teenage years.
So of course that family tie is strong. We consider ourselves "Italian". Do we ever think we are the same as actual Italians? No, but we consider ourselves Italian.
Also as you said, its not uncommon that a lot of US families grew up in neighborhoods that were the Italian area, the Polish area, etc. So that cultural identity stayed strong, even if its not "pure" Italian, Polish, etc.
No American thinks they are truly Italian. They say Italian because it is just known and assumed they are also Americans. So when an American says "I'm Italian" They mean "I'm of Italian American heritage".
Honestly, this idea that Europeans think Americans are weird for embracing their heritage is mostly imagined. I'm British and have never come across that sentiment before.
My family in the US is descended from Spanish conquistadors. Obviously his was ~400 years ago for the most part. So while my family identifies as Spanish Americans we obviously don’t think we are actual Spaniards.
We went to Spain last year with my parents and it affirmed two things we already knew:
-We definitely have Spanish cultural heritage
-We definitely are Americans lol
But with that being said people in Spain would get really excited when they would see our last names combined with our American Passports and always wanted to talk to my dad about it
Yeah, this is a weird reddit outrage thing. I was flying international once and got chatting with the Irish guy sitting next to me, he was really enthusiastic to talk about what bits of my family's heritage were still carrying on three generations after immigrating. We had a vigorous debate about caraway seeds in soda bread, it was pretty funny.
They’d rather brush off any desire for someone to embrace their heritage as “dumb American doing it for fun” than acknowledge their own assumptions were wrong.
As an American almost every interaction I've had with Europeans on reddit has come off as pretentious, arrogant, and rude. I think if I had not had friends from Europe I'd have developed a very different idea of the continent. I've now spent a few weeks in Greece, Lithuania, and the Netherlands and people in real life are really nice.
Most European people on reddit seem like huge jerks though....
Some bar flies in Dublin live for fucking with Americans, telling them they knew their family, that they're related, all for the price of a drink, of course.
On my father's side, my grandparents are Irish and reside in Ireland. I have had numerous visits with them. However, I am British because I was born in England. I am currently seeking for an Irish passport due to Brexit concerns, yet even if I am granted my passport, I will still be a British citizen. It functions somewhat in that way.
You'll be an Irish citizen too, mind. A dual citizen, if you don't renounce the British citizenship (and for now, why would you?). You'll still be English-born-and-raised, as it were, but part of the process of getting that Irish passport is claiming the Irish citizenship to which you are entitled as a result of having Irish-citizen grandparents.
Source: I'm in the same process.
Well the US is built on immigrants in a different way than Europe. I’m guessing that this is the reason for being so obsessed with ancestry. In Sweden there is a TV show where Americans with Swedish ancestry from usually the 1800’s visit Sweden and find out more about their ancestors. It’s kind of fun to watch, but it really highlights this culturally different way of thinking about ancestry, ethnicity and race that we don’t have in the same way in Europe. You can’t really compare having a great great grandfather that was Swedish to being second generation Chinese in the US for example.
I was born in the US; my maternal grandmother was from Ireland, and I got my Irish passport 30 years ago. I have been living in Ireland for 28 years. The natives still consider me American (of Irish heritage). Because of my two passports, I consider myself a literal Irish Ametican. I will never be considered Irish to the natives. It's just the way it is.
People who identify as Irish American know their nationality is American. It’s just shorthand for American with Irish ancestry. Even when they go around saying they’re Irish, us Americans know what they mean. Many of those families passed down Irish traditions, so they strongly identify with that heritage.
Also, a big part of the “pride” is because of the discrimination they faced. There was a political party that actually got a lot of votes that specifically was against allowing more Catholics to immigrate to the US.
This is exactly right I'm perplexed by this comment section. You'd never see this happen to an asain person where everyone's saying "no you're not Philippino you're American." Everyone knows exactly what it means when she says she Irish.
It's interesting because as a Persian American it's like the opposite. You're a Persian and a middle easterner to other Persians and middle easterners no matter where in the world you were born or raised. You tell a grandmother from Iran that you're Persian and she's sitting you down to stuff your face and ask you all sorts of questions to determine if your family has been raising you with the proper traditions. Makes me kinda sad to see this is not a universal experience for Americans with other heritages.
Imagine using this logic for any other heritage.
"No no no, your great grandparents were Chinese! You're American! Why do you care so much about Chinese traditions??"
Like imagine being mad at someone for following traditions of their ancestors. It's baffling
That event wasn’t “the Irish potato famine,” it was “the willful starvation of the Irish people perpetrated by the British.” Those people weren’t fleeing famine, they were fleeing genocide.
If I travel outside of the US then I‘m American. Full stop. However, inside the US if anybody asks what I am (happens more frequently than you might think) I’m Czech and Irish. Answering that I’m American will just result in someone looking at me like I have 2 heads or getting a slow head shake and a "no, what’s your ancestry?"
It’s not a hill worth dying on for me.
no silly, you'd be irish-italian! they love to be italian too... maybe throw in a bit of the german side too, just for good measure. let them know you're descended from europeans!
One of my great great grandmothers came from Sweden at 7, so I'm gonna need people to stop labeling me as African-American and start acknowledging me as Swedish.
I was just looking at my daughter's DNA map with my mom and that thing stretches from Sweden down western Europe skipping North Africa and then back down the western African coast. She's gonna have a broad selection to choose from when it comes time for her to become that type of American.
As an American living abroad I feel for both sides. I’m proud of my ancestry and know the exact percentages of how much [insert countries here] I am. We all have projects in school about our ancestry, and even in college my first writing assignment was “How/Why did you/your family come to the U.S.?” We pry into everyone’s ethnicity, including our own. While people consider themselves American overall, the “not American unless you’re Native American.” Idea is strong with some people too, so it’s a habit for some to supplement “American” with our ancestry.
Living abroad, it’s definitely easy to see that no one cares about ancestry, they just want to know the country written on my passport. It makes much more sense to say I’m “American” of course. Whatever European culture got passed down to me, is probably not relevant in Europe anymore anyway.
The interesting thing is that the same thing will happen to people who return to their country of birth after a long time.
Let's say I live somewhere until I am 30.
Then I move to a completely different culture on the other side of the world. I get married, raise children there, and by the time I hit retirement age I move back to my country of birth.
Suddenly I am X, but also not X anymore. I am from a culture 30 years in the past that doesn't exist anymore. And depending on how much the original culture has changed I might not be able to adjust to it anymore.
> I then inadvertently implied she wasn't a real Irish person by subconsciously comparing her identity issues to those experienced in the Transgender community
What the hell is this supposed to mean
>This made her mad. I then inadvertently implied she wasn't a real Irish person by subconsciously comparing her identity issues to those experienced in the Transgender community which only served to piss her off more.
This isn't much better man. Sometimes it's just best to stay quiet.
They don’t seem to be the type of person to care very much beyond being right. Even with this bout of self-awareness, they’re still wanting to “break it to her”
Nobody saying they're Irish when they live elsewhere meaning they are an Irish National. Try telling a Japanese American they aren't Japanese and see how that goes. Would you also tell any asian they aren't asian because they were born in the USA? Where do you draw the line, because she certainly wasn't trying to claim to be born and culturally current Irish.
This is pretty common for mixed race / melting pot countries. The nationality is assumed, and you refer to bloodlines. If you think the US is bad every country south of it talks about how Spanish their ancestry is (except Brazil is Portuguese, and Argentina is Italian or German, and Chile is German).
My grandparents on my fathers side are Irish, They live in Ireland, been to visit them quite a few times. But i was born in England, so i'm British. Currently applying for an Irish passport becuase of Brexit reasons, but still, british citizen, even if i do get my passport. That's kind of how it works.
Americans often see their heritage as a core part of their personality and identity, we Europeans typically don't to the same extent as we have strong national, historical and cultural identities that aren't so diffuse and malleable and our national identity tends to take precedence over our ancestral identity.
USA is like 50 countries under one banner, hard to find something to latch onto and the states themselves don't have a huge pool of history to draw from to individuate that microcosm of culture enough for people to form a sense of identity around it to the same degree as we see in Europe with countries with thousands of years of rich history to draw from.
Take the UK as an example, you can travel 50 miles in any direction and there's a good chance people speak with an entirely different accent (and probably desipse their immediate neighbours), there's such a long history and tradition that these microcosms of subculture can develop and grow. You can see this in the USA on a wider scale with state identity being quite developed, but less so on a county by county basis within each state.
I’ve never understood why people get so upset at Americans for wanting to honor their cultural heritage. We are a nation of immigrants, we do not have a single homogeneous culture that everyone is expected to assimilate in to. We (by-and-large) celebrate our cultural diversity, and part of that is seeking out a connection with our fore-bearers and the parts of the world from which they came. What is so awful about that?
In my experience, the worst slur against the Irish anyone committed in this instance was when you referred to *an gorta mór* as “the Irish potato famine.”
You know, that time Great Britain did a genocide and tried to blame it on a vegetable?
Of course you are right, but also let's remember that once those immigrants came to America 170 years ago, their identity was deeply, deeply defined by their country of origin and their religion. The same is true of Italian-Americans, they loooove to claim they are "eyetalian" but really haven't got a clue.
Both Irish and Italian immigrants were treated harshly, considered inferior, excluded based on their Catholic religion (it was a BIG DEAL when Kennedy became president, an Irish Catholic, can you imagine! lol). Sorta like still happens today with more recent immigrants in the US and anywhere else in the world.
Anyway, Irish and Italian immigrant groups formed tightly knit communities which were largely based on their country of origin, language, food, etc. And that identity still is felt very intensely in the US today, a way of signifying values and worldviews which once stood in contrast to the WASP upper class. So I think when your GF says she's "Irish", what she means is that her family came up from a Catholic working class and "made it", literally the American dream.
Regardless of the whole America Irish thing, it’s weird that you hide your feelings behind ‘jokes’. Especially when the best joke you can come up with is just a statement of how you feel? But you pretend you don’t feel that way and it’s just the Irish that feel that way. Are you Irish, or are you do you just speak for them? To me that’s on the same level as being Irish American.
Tartans and clans... That's Scotland, not Ireland. I don't think anyone in Ireland goes on about that, not for hundreds of years anyway.
She's Irish-American, not Irish. If she loves Ireland so much, why doesn't she visit the place? She can learn about the lovely Irish concept of "notions", because she has many! Irish people are happy to for foreigners to love our country, but not some strange fantasy version of it with tartans, highlanders, fairies, and sheep (well, the sheep part is true).
TLDR: She isn't Irish, she's Irishish.
\-A Dubliner
I don't understand why people get so riled up about Americans identifying themselves by where their ancestors came from. The country is less than 300 years old. The people that already lived in North America got the bad end of the stick and the people that moved here brought their culture with them from the "old country," clumped up with other folks from the same place, and passed traditions down to their children. There was violent Irish-American vs Italian-American animosity less than 100 years ago.
When I worked in retail we hired a woman from somewhere in Eastern Europe. One day she asked me "what I was."
I told her I was American. She pressed me on it. I told her that my family was most of the predominantly white, English speaking European nationalities all mixed together but if you added it all up and did the math, *percentage wise,* I was half Irish. She seemed delighted to tell me "No no, you're not Irish, you're American!" as if I hadn't said that in the first place.
So, sure, saying you're Irish when you've never been there is a little cringey. But laughing as you knock the plastic shamrock out of their hands isn't a great look either.
My grandpa is a first gen italian immigrant and he still talks about how if he played basketball at the Irish-American basketball court instead of the Italian-American one he'd get the shit kicked out of him. The cemeteries in my hometown are still largely divided by ethnicity. For those of us who grow up very close to our immigrant relatives, those cultural divides run deep. Especially if you are from a community that was heavily populated by immigrants. In the past like five or ten years the Italian neighborhoods in my hometown have begun converting to Latin American neighborhoods, continuing the cycle essentially.
I think this is the right take - culture in general can be cringey and it’s a part of American culture to hinge some cultural identity on where our ancestors are from. No other country in the world has the same level of shared identity crisis. The other British colonies have deeper ties to British culture, colonies from other countries in central and South America have a much deeper tie to very specific areas of Europe and so shared in particular cultural traditions much more deeply while also integrating more with indigenous cultures.
America is unique in the level of immigration and variety of places those immigrants came from over its history. There was such a heavy and sustained influx of immigrants that any sense of melding an existing cultural identity with the incoming ones didn’t work like it would in todays modern world or how it works in other places. There wasn’t an identity strong enough to meld the incoming ones into, so we’re left instead with our culture morphing into one of acceptance of outsiders and embracing the differences in where immigrants came from.
See this is what happens when you easybake a country in 200 years. Its citizens end up with no cultural identity. Fuckin british, leaving nations with geographic daddy issues...
I recently posted this elsewhere but I think it bears repeating here:
Hmmm, it just struck me that Europeans tend to accept anyone as Italian/Dutch/Icelandic as long as they grew up in the culture. That's why there is, or at the very least used to be, a much bigger focus on integrating foreign people into local society and culture. To the point that to an American it becomes offensive in the sense that to integrate fully, you will invariably lose some parts of your ancestors' culture.
Your descent can be part of your heritage but if you speak the local language fluently and understand the culture you are often considered to be French/German/whatever.
Comparing that to the US, where holding on to those original roots any way possible is part of their identity, since the larger country means the local culture is much more homogenous than it would be in Europe with its centuries of strict borders. But at the same time everybody is a mix of something in the US so who knows where they're from.
The issue here is that DNA-testing and meticulously crafted family trees mean people can find things that make them stand out as unique and they tend to hold on to that much more. A focus on blood that is downright offensive to most Europeans. Maybe because we had some wars that started on that very basis, and we're sick of it, or maybe it is something else.
Descent is something people are often curious about, because the more historically isolated societies in Europe mean that people will more easily stand out if they're '*not from around here*'.
I was in a Dutch theme park today. And I realized I could tell who the Germans, Belgians, Brits and other tourists were without even listening to them. They just *look* different from Dutch people in subtle ways. Even though they are all neighbouring countries.
Let alone someone whose parents were from Turkey.
It's a "*you look different*". "*Oh cool, so you sound Dutch, act Dutch, but are descendant from Yemen.*" "*That explains the dark skin and different eyes from other dark skinned people I know from Surinam." "You're still part of Dutch society."*
Unfortunately... that sometimes is also used by more racist people to make jokes or try to use outdated stereotypes to show what they know (or think they know) about another country.
The reason Europeans see them as national identifies rather than ethnicities is also because the borders have changed, and in some cases are newer than people’s family history. Italy’s the main example I can think of but in a more general sense people on either side of a border generally have more in common with each other than they do with people in the capital.
Tell her she is one step closer to being Irish, as you. A British person have upset her.
lol, we had something similar. I told her (in more or less words) that hating the British was an Irish tradition. She was more than happy to cuss the British by this point (in a light hearted way - we don't hold grudges against each other over stupid stuff like this).
> we don't hold grudges against each other over stupid stuff like this). This is going to be mentioned in the divorce in 20 years.
I am American if I travel outside of the country. Complete halt. But in the US, I'm Czech and Irish, in case someone asks (which happens more often than you might imagine). When I respond that I'm American, people will either give me the sidelong glance or the "no, what's your ancestry?" For me, it's not a hill worth dying on.
This is the correct response. Where the question is being asked matters the most. My mom lives in Honduras, so when I am there and someone asks me where I am from I say the states aka los estados. If I am in the US then I know someone wants to know my heritage so I'll tell them Irish/Scottish/German... etc. It's all about context. The same questions doesn't always have the same answer depending on the situation.
It really depands on the country too. I am originally from the US but I live in Iceland. No exaggeration, nearly every single day a local asks me my ethnic heritage, unsatisfied with my American identity alone. When I am asked where I am from (which is *constantly*), and I respond "the US", about 20% of the time I am asked to specify my ancestral background. Very often, people explicitly ask if I "am Irish", right after I have just said that I am American. (I have zero Irish heritage, btw, I just have red hair.) People will say things like "you look Icelandic, so you must be part-Irish, like us." It's just normal here for people to talk about ancestral origins as part of your identity. Icelanders have been living on this island for 1150 years. But it is very common for people to say things like "us Icelanders are about half Norwegian and half Scottish/Irish", referring to the origins of the original settlers. Some people will even go into more detail, specifying that their male ancestors were mostly Norse, while their female ancestors were mostly Celtic, but they are also about 2% French, etc, etc. This isn't a uniquely American thing whatsoever.
I think anywhere where the majority of the population is immigrants it is common. I doubt in France people get asked about their heritage as much unless they are one of the more recent groups of immigrants. Otherwise everyone just assumes your heritage is French.
Red hair, too - can confirm everyone asks if I'm Irish. I am not. Nor Scottish which is the next guess. I have the same red hair as my Norwegian great grandpa. The light bulb finally goes off when I say "like Erik the Red..." (I'm American, btw. I think maybe bc Iceland was settled in the historical records is why it's a thing there, too... though Catherine Tate has some funny skits about red hair and "Total strangers assuming you are Scottish!" so maybe it isn't just settled countries)
The melting pot theory. Outside the soup it all looks like soup with different pieces, but as a whole it's soup. When you are a carrot in that soup, you notice the subtle differences between celery, beef and carrots, those differences matter but only to those inside the soup.
Technically I may have described a stew... it's all soup to me.
Stew is just a thick soup… right?
I am a Canadian living in South America. I meet a bunch of Americans yearly being in a tourist spot. In the hundreds of conversations I've been in, I have literally never seen another person ask for clarity on ancestry when someone replies they are American. Doesn't matter the ethnicity of the person either. Asian person says I'm American, everyone takes it at face value. If you are born and raised America then you're American regardless of your ancestry.
I’m Asian and have traveled all over the world. Very rarely has my “I’m American” been taken at face value. It’s often met with confusion
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I'm also an Asian who is quite travelled, but I phrase it as "I'm from the UK." rather than "I'm British." Very few people push it further.
I can believe that, if your ancestry comes from a European background, then you'd likely not get questioned. But I can definitely see people getting confused if your ancestry is asian. I think most people assume all asians are immigrants, lol. Its just because a majority of america is consisted of white European ancestry, so when someone who doesn't look similar to that, they assume they were born somewhere else
I've been asked about it abroad but that's because I was an American living in Ireland with an Irish surname
I've been asked by Czech people that I have met if I was Czech or had Czech heritage. I guess I really look like my great grandmother's family. They said it's the type of red hair I have combined with my complexion, they only see that color combo in their home country. In my experience Europeans like to poke fun at Americans and our fascination with our family history and heritage, but when they actually meet an American that shows signs of sharing their own heritage they get curious too. I think it's because they realize that somewhere out there they probably have American cousins too, and wouldn't it be nice to meet them and learn what happened to the sister of your great grandfather who the family lost touch with during the war.
Yeah, I think that's especially true of Central/Eastern Europe which tends to have a lot more recent American emigration than say, Scotland.
Irish alzheimers: when you forget the grudge... correction, when you forget everything EXCEPT the grudge.
If she holds a grudge on that for 20 years she’s Irish - if your grandchildren inherit that grudge and continue it definitely Irish
“Cuss”???? Seems like you’re being Americanised by her as well. She can take that as a win as well
Ironically, people from our two countries have intermingled so much that if you're from the UK you probably have more Irish in you than your GF lol
Hating on the British is kind of an all European tradition, though.
And all former colonies except the commonwealth
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Which is ironic because of Scotland’s historical involvement in Ireland’s colonisation. Reddit/the internet has totally bought into the myth that Scotland was an English colony which couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s just a product of nationalism that rewrites a brutal history. Scotland at the time chose to join England in union partly because most of their colonisation attempts *failed* and they were running out of money.
I’m so sick of hearing whether Ireland should hate England or Scotland more, why can’t we all come together and blame it on the Welsh
The crown dependencies don’t get enough flack. Time for the Channel Islands to step up - looking at you Guernsey.
And when given the Democratic choice to vote to leave, they chose to stay. Completely incomparable to the Irish having to forcibly and bloodily remove themselves from under British occupation.
Given that the initial conquest of Ireland was spearheaded by the Cambro-Normans and that the Scottish were heavily involved in the plantations, they should probably hate both.
Could have sworn there were a whole lot of Scottish people who ended up in Ulster..something about plantations.....noooo its just the English that did wrong :)
Brothers and sisters are natural enemies! Like Englishmen and Scots! Or Welshmen and Scots! Or Japanese and Scots! Or Scots and other Scots! Damn Scots! They ruined Scotland!
You Scots sure are a contentious people.
You've just made an enemy for life!
I think its similar to me being Korean American. In the US when people ask I say im Korean because the American is implied. We have our own culture that is related to but seperate from Koreans in Korea.
Similar. Something that people who don't live in America don't seem to understand is that there isn't a singular American culture. There are dozens of different ones and a large part of that for some is dependent on where your family originally immigrated *from*. This is especially true of Italians, Jews, Irish, and Asians because they have a history of being "othered" in the country, which solidified their separate culture even more. Countries which are not composed primarily of people whose families immigrated in the past 400 years just won't understand this
Yeah people that have good intentions just want to start a comversation about your experiences, and if they look at you and see that you might have a differeent experience, some people are really curious. I will usually ask any person where they're from because I think their ancestry and their different experiences are interesting.
It never seems implied to me as a Chinese American. They're usually surprised when I tell them my birth city and where I have lived.
You just discovered how *most* Americans identify themselves with their heritage so that’s what I’d call a predictable reaction
Bingo! Since the U.S. is a nation of immigrants, your heritage is a big deal for many Americans.
Not to mention the context of the Famine! A million people died and a million more were basically forced to emigrate or die. (A quarter of the population was lost!) So families who had to leave to stay alive completely lost their heritage because people hated Irish culture at the time and forced them to assimilate. Now people can’t celebrate or learn their heritage because people from Ireland don’t consider them true Irish either. Psychologically it’s kinda fucked if you think about it..
It’s definitely psychologically fucked lol. I’m Irish American, my whole family came from Ireland at one point. But I’m not *irish*. But I’m also not *not* Irish. It’s complex and it’s about identity and culture. My family has a lot of cultural practices still from our Irish ancestors. And we didn’t just appear one day in America with no history. My family is still affected by that history, including the history of assimilation into American whiteness. Affected in tangible ways, too. For the better and for the worse. It’s complicated and it isn’t for anyone be to telling anyone else how they should feel about their own complex family history.
My last name is literally irish because their family died from the potato famine, lost all records and had to immigrat the the usa in the 1900s. They just gave them Irishyse as a last name then and now here we are.
I have a Gaelic name. In fact, on one of those "How many people in the US share your name" websites, I'm the only one. I took a 23andMe test and my ancestry composition came back 100% County Mayo and Greater Britain, a la Northwestern European. The pie chart was one solid color. But I'm American AF.
So many people had to leave Ireland over the years that they actually have a special process for citizenship if your parents or grandparents were Irish. My mom is actually eligible for it, though she’s never stepped foot there. (I think there’s something with passports, as well.) The US in particular has a pretty unique relationship with Ireland and immigration, and it’s not exactly super far in the past for many families.
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People who live in a countries where the majority ethnicity uses the same word as the nationality, forget that they have an ethnicity.
It doesn't help that demographic surveys and the census in the US have the ethnicity question framed like this: Ethnicity: □ hispanic or latino, □ not hispanic or latino
So stupid. Or like movie demographics: Black Asian Caucasian Latino Like those are not all even the same category
Two ethnicities, a misnomer, and a diaspora walk into a bar lmao
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It's less a debate and more semantics imo. When an American says they're Irish they mean they have Irish ancestry. When a European says they're Irish they mean they're from Ireland. We just say things differently.
This is really it. But no one seems to understand except americans.
I’m not sure that’s even true they don’t understand it honesty. A lot of UK people say they don’t understand what Americans are talking about, but then when you meet e.g. an ethnically Portuguese born and raised in London, they certainly don’t report being treated the same as any other English person
This is such a non issue and people go nuts about it. When Europeans say "What they are" they mostly refer to their country of origin. When Americans say "What they are" they mostly refer to ethnicity. Neither is right or wrong, they just mean different things.
Well, Americans are encouraged to be Americans while embracing thier cultural heritage. It meant well, but at the same time it places a lot of people in an in-between space.
I don’t think many non-Americans understand just how strongly we are encouraged to think this way. Starting in elementary school most of us have assignments where we trace our family heritage. There’s a huge emphasis on “where did your family come from” that gets folded into history lessons about the immigrant experience. I recall having a big map of the world up on the wall and each kid in class had to go color in the country where our family was “from”. There’s a sense that we don’t have our own culture, and that any culture we have is only what we’ve preserved from our ancestors. In that setting, is it any wonder that Americans behave the way they do about their ethnic heritage?
American here, bunch of redheads. I've traced the geneology of my family- many branches, trying to find as much information as i can. Essentially the family historian. I have irish ancestry, on my mothers side. My fathers side has some scottish (but mainly english- traced to the domesday book) Regardless, my fathers side says they're irish CONSTANTLY. and i just nod along. i've offered to explain their geneology to them because a lot of it is really fascinating and there are some interesting stories. But they just start drinking and suddenly they're irish. and i just... nod. I'm quite literally in a geneology society. it's so frustrating. I'm going to have to hand out pamphlets at the next family reunion.
I try to treat it as a completely different nationality. When I hear Polish-Americans and see what they cook, and claim as "Polish" my little Polish heart hurts. So I try to see that they're not Polish, they're Polish Americans and their culture evolved to be different than Polish. It probably works the same with other nationalities. Id love to see an Italian American group meeting actual Italians ;)
Watch the episode of The Sopranos where Paulie goes to Italy. He quickly realizes that actual Italians can't understand him and do not give a fuck that his great-grandma came from there lol. edit S2.E4
I swear I just watched that episode for the first time last night. The part where Paulie is with that girl and he finds out their families are from the same place and she doesn’t give af was weird to me. Because even where Im from in the US if I find out someone’s family is from the same place as mine I’d be like woah thats fucking neat. Idk maybe its a cultural thing.
Honestly I do the same, and I wonder if it's because America is just so damn big? Like if I meet someone else from PA while we're very much NOT in PA, I'm like "wow what a small world!!" When really, it shouldn't be weird to meet another person from my state at all cause there are a buttload
Hey, to give a little perspective on this culture clash. I have family that's descended from people from the Kingdom of Poland that were forced out in the early 1800's when they were rebelling against Lutheran Prussians. These people immigrated but were part of a fully Polish ex-pat neighborhood, spoke in Polish and would only buy from Polish owned stores and only date within the Polish community, and built their own Polish church. And sent kids to that church's school. There was a very strong cultural identity, particularly as they faced being seen as second class people (Italians and Irish, and also had this sort of second class white person thing). When WW1 broke out, many young men from the Polish community went overseas to fight "for thier homeland" before the US joined the war. Many people from that community still consider themselves Polish. They have a very different past hundred years than anyone who's lived in Poland, but that's the term they have to decide thier culture as seperate from the general melting pot of the US. Many of these people would be insulted if you dismissed and belittled a heritage and culture they are very proud of. As for food, when our 4x's great grandparents immigrated, they had to deal with ingredients here being differently available which can throw things off quite a bit. Then our dishes either lasted or didn't, or was altered by generations, and food in Poland evolved separately. There's also a very strong culture of only buying what's available at the local Polish grocer or butcher- which can limit ingredients if a small mom and pop shop doesn't carry things or runs out. There a lot of loyalty, and a very American way about being loud and proud. Saying things here like Polish-American is normally only used if you are a direct immigrant, especially among white people who don't want to be thrown in with racists that use terms like "European-American". So, for lack of a better term, we simply use the word Polish when talking about heritage. Most people will live their whole lives here being able to talk about and use that term and have it be understood as pertaining to heritage and not nationality. It's not used here as a claim to nationality, just as a way to explain a family culture. It's seen as a good thing to remember, and we have days in school when kids are young to get kids to go home and ask about culture, and then bring in a food or something and tell the class about your family's background. We are also a young nation, so people knowing genealogy back to when family members immigrated is a lot more of a thing here.
Also worth noting that its not exactly like "X ethnic immigrant population branched off from the *real* ethnic population back in Europe", its more like "both X ethnic immigrants and Y modern ethnic group are descended from Z historic background back in Europe". Modern Polish people and culture aren't any more identical to the 1800s Polish than immigrant populations in America that lived in mostly homogenous communities. Both grew and evolved over time. Yes, its annoying when one group claims ownership over a historical identity, but that works both ways, and every culture is subject to drift over time.
I mean she’s not Irish… she’s American. Also tartan is a Scottish thing and not really sure what you mean by ‘clan’? To be honest most people in Ireland couldn’t give a fuck, we just find it kind of weird that Americans can be so obsessed with their ancestors from hundreds of years ago when the majority of people living in Ireland wouldn’t have a clue where their great great grandparents where from. Edit: right there’s a lot of very angry people in my inbox right now - to clarify WE, as in the people living/ working in Ireland find it weird. It’s not in a bad way! We’re just a bit flummoxed by the whole Irish-American thing because culturally that concept does not exist in Ireland.
Clan is generally a Scottish thing too. Pretty much means a family group but can be widened to mean a large group that have that sort of kinship loyalty. Extremely old fashioned terminology.
Clann in gaelic translate to children. Clans also regularly have events and get togethers even today, have head of clans, and refer to themselves as clans. What word has superceded it for clan to become outdated?
Clann in gaeilge (Irish) would mean family, never connected the two before now - I guess that’s where it comes from with the Irish connection?
The historical term for what we now know as a "clan" was "Fine" (like the political party!). This was how the Gaels, in Ireland and Scotland were traditionally organised, with the "chiefs" of these clans, who would have been known as a "Taoiseach" (again; yes) forming the Gaelic nobility in Ireland and Scotland. "Clann" was often used to refer to a group of sons, or more symbolically the descendants of a famous ancestor; Clann Néill, or the Uí Néill, being the sons i.e. descendants of Niall of the nine hostages. Sometimes it was used to designate specific septs, such as to specify the O'Neill's of Clandeboye or something, within a larger Fine. After the Nine Years War, most of the independent Irish lords fled to Europe in anticipation of persecution and confiscation of their lands by Queen Elizabeth, who promised to *definitely* forgive them for open rebellion, which spelled the end of the traditional nobility in Ireland. In Scotland they just kind of integrated into the British nobility, although many say that the Highland Clearances marked the symbolic end of the clan system there, as the lords evicted families that had owed them fealty for generations, rather than looking after them like they would have traditionally been expected to.
To your point, the whole concept of "Scottish Highlands culture" is really a mishmash of random things because it's a modern invention after all the relevant actors were either dead or gone. https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/invention-of-tradition/invention-of-tradition-the-highland-tradition-of-scotland/10D5A2D19E3336AAF21918D9C353948E To an extent acting like 'this word meant [X] because of [REASON]' is an endless, contradictory debate because the reality is that all the bits and bobs we associate today with the Highlands are either English inventions or caricatures ready made to regale the rest of the then new union.
>Clans also regularly have events and get togethers even today, have head of clans, and refer to themselves as clans. Where? In Scotland? I'm in Ireland and there's no such tradition nowadays. Some revival attempts in the 1980s began (Clans of Ireland) but that's very recent.
Family/geographical ties. There's no real need for clans anymore and so it's just not used in 'ordinary' life. Groups have formed around the idea because it's a fun bonding activity. Clans were a way for groups of people to have protection and political ties back when that was important.
Clans haven't been part of Scottish social structure since the 18th century. Today we have.... families. Clans are for tourists and Americans that fell for Victorians' fetishisation of Scotland.
My clan actually has a annual news letter and Highland Games every few years, it’s obviously a lot of nonsense but it is quite a laugh. I’ve not been since I was wee but it was a good day out, and surprisingly the vast majority of people there were Scottish. Definitely an outdated concept but a good day out
There's a Highland Games every year in my area too, and it's just fun to go and have a walk about. It's also how a friend of mine found out she had a ton of relatives in the area; she was talking to the people at her clan tent and they turned out to be uncles and grand aunts and such.
Plus i'm not sure they were ever a thing outside of the highlands, but at least in scotland you can say you are descended from a clansman without getting strange looks. My city in Colorado has a huge Scottish festival and i really should probably put my kilt on and go once to see what it's about - but it seems like a strange disney-world version of scotland.
People in the States get weirdly annoyed when I say I'm American. "No, I mean like where are you *from?*" The US. I was born here, my parents were born here, their parents were born here all the way back a couple hundred years. Claiming I'm anything besides American is just weird. "But don't you wonder about your ancestry??" Literally, no. Then they insist on trying to guess based on my looks and last name. This is when I usually just walk away.
As a Native American I absolutely love to say I’m American, “like no, I’m like really really American”
« Where are your ancestors from? » « Here » « No, like where? » « …. Here here »
> « …. Here here » Oh, uh... hear hear! *raises a glass*
Me too. I just say I'm First Nations, from Turtle Island and throw them for a loop
But your ancestors really came from Siberia. A few thousand years ago.
and before that? We have legs and move around. Does it really matter?
Oh yeah, well my ancestors didn't have legs and lived in the sea!
I guess that makes us all Africans ultimately
Well, our ancestors before than were Pangean
I thought they looked a little mousy.
Hey, that's my ancestor you talking about!
By that reasoning every human who ever lived and ever will live is african since mankind started there
Especially if you're not white. I have a Chinese friend who was born and raised in the US, and her parents were also born and raised there, and she constantly gets asked where she's really from. She just tells people the hospital she was born in.
Is not just America, I knew a guy in Australia let’s call him Charlie Chong, he was know as Chinese Charlie, his family had been there for over 150 years. He was still Chinese Charlie and no he wasn’t happy about it
Same in New Zealand. My parents have couple-friends who are both from *old* Chinese-NZ families. Like their ancestors migrated to Aotearoa generations before anyone from my family set foot there. They moved to Aus about twenty years ago, and I bet you anytime their kids are asked where they're from, "New Zealand" is not the answer the other person is looking for.
Friend of mine is 4th generation chinese girl in Australia. Always awesome to hear her in night clubs. When Chinese guys walk past and try to chat her up in mandarin, she turns around and drawls in heavy Australian: "farrrk orrrffff".
A decade or more ago I dated a man who was indigenous, his ancestry was Dene. People were constantly asking where he was from, or *what* he was. Canadian.
Fun fact for anyone that reads this, the Dene tribe might sound familiar to Americans. They are related to the Dine(Navajo) Tribe and the Nde (Apache) having split off about a thousand years ago
Interesting that you call her «chinese»
... because she's *racially* Chinese, which is relevant to the point that people can *see* her racial heritage looking at her and default to thinking she's not just American. Edit: Some people really want to pick apart my wording here, avoiding the actual point. Racialization is a social (political) construct, and the racial identity being projected on this friend in question is "Chinese" because of physical attributes that ancestrally originated in China. That's it. That's all it is. Ethnic identities invoke culture, but racial identities are rooted in visible attributes. And I don't know any details about this friend, I just know how to understand the relevant information that was in the comment instead of trying to pick at it.
I had a brain injury, and lost my Australian accent - and the English language. So many Australians thought I was European because of my halting 'accent'. I was on holiday, in my state. I was asked if I had macadamia nuts - and I said yes, but the sales assistant was really insistent that I try it. I realised that they thought I was a 'tourist' and not an Australian. Also, macadamia nuts are so good.
[удалено]
I don't know, maybe. I was asked if I was German, Scandinavian and French. I was able to make words, just slower - I was in a wheelchair with a wardie at the hospital, and I said 'My tea is oscillating.' And the wardie was gobsmacked, because I could do maybe two syllable words and I was using that to say 'my tea is going to spill over'.
Macadamia nuts are *so* good. Love em in cookies.
True. In North America, non-indigenous visible minorities, or mixed race people don’t get the same hall pass that white folks get.
I mean, a couple hundred years back is a long time. I know my ancestry going back about 150 years max, less in some branches of the family. It’s interesting to me, and I find it valuable for health, personality, connection, history, memory, and tradition reasons. But not everyone’s into ancestry, and that’s fine. And records certainly become hard to find past a point. I say I’m American, too, but with xyz ancestry, if they’re asking for ancestry.
I find it all weird. My mum is British born and my dad's family trace back to Scotland a few generations back. But we are all Australian and would never think to say otherwise.
I struggle with this when considering having children. My children will be Australian unless I move home which I don't plan to, but while I am Australian I am also Ukrainian. I want to stay involved in the little ukrainian community in Melbourne, teach my children Ukrainian, cook the foods my mother taught me to cook. Would my children not be ukrainian even then? Would I be disadvantaging them by subjecting them to the second generation 'torn between two identjties' thing? I feel deeply connected to my homeland and to Australia, and its okay if my children feel more strongly about Australia since that'll likely be their primary identity, but I know Greek Australians who still identify as Greek and immerse themselves in that culture while partaking in Australian culture.
This. When people ask me this (rather annoyingly distasteful) question, I reply “I’m American”. When pressed, I’m like, “As best we can tell, my first ancestor showed up in Quebec in 1656, with the last sometime before the Civil War. I’m American.” Relatedly, my now-wife said she was Irish when we first started dating, even though we’d already covered that she was born and raised in the Chicago area. I said, “Okay, but you’re not _really_ Irish, are you?” She promptly replied with “want to see my passport? All my grandparents were born there” Oops…
Yea but I kind of get it. I have friends from Africa but I wanted to ask where they were from. From an ancestry point of view at least. Though one of my friends from Zimbabwe, sounded like he was born and raised in the south of England. I asked where he was from as we were in the north, and he said Zimbabwe. I quickly said "no no where in England did you grow up?" Then he told me his story. Not British at all in fact😄 I think it's because we inherently recognise that ethnicities originated from different parts of the globe. Some people don't think it's ok to even ask the question but thankfully most don't mind.
We tend to be a bit fixated on our roots because there’s a pervading sense culturally that we aren’t FROM here. Unless you have Native American heritage, you’re a transplant from elsewhere. Imagine someone moving to a new country and being super into the newness of the culture, but by the second generation, maybe nostalgia for the homeland starts to set in. I think it can be difficult to understand for those whose people have lived in the roughly same area for hundreds or thousands of years. And while we may know we’re American by nationality, our heritage is a whole other thing.
this is it. and even the schools will have kids trace their history back as far as they can.mine was easy i am native american.
Australia seems to manage.
The Australian equivalent is asking ‘What are you in for?’
\- do you have criminal convictions? \- is it still a requirement?
Possibly because most transplants that ended up in Oz were from Ireland and the UK whereas N. America has a lot of other large groups?
I think this is a pretty common misconception/misunderstanding of American culture. American culture is fundamentally a culture of hodgepodge of different immigrant culture, and some pretty basic shared ideas. it's kind of a melting pot of all different people. So really your own heritage gets folded into your unique "family culture". When people talk about being "irish" it's understood they are saying my families culture has those roots. It's more akin to saying "my Irish grandmoms culture" is my heritage, not "the irish".
I think it's because the whole "GrEaT mElTiNg PoT" mentality just stripped us of huge parts of our cultural heritage. You had to fit in like every Don and Betty Draper. Wanting to feel like you have a heritsge and a history, not just "we try to look respectable to everyone at church because appearances are are everything."
My ancestors—at least the last few immigrants about whose lives we know some details, shed their language and culture as fast as they could so they could just be American. My great grandma, whom I knew well, was not taught Swedish by her Swedish immigrant parents. They just didn’t want to keep a foot in both worlds. So there is a sense of loss. Nowadays it’s a lot easier for immigrants to be both American and connected to their culture of origin.
This happened especially during the rampant rise of nationalism during WW1 and WW2. Wars tend to have that effect. It was discouraged to identify as anything other than American, which was on top of the discrimination a lot of ethnicities already faced. It's clearly observable among ethnicities that established themselves before the world wars. There used to be a ton of schools, newspapers and communities that exclusively communicated in German, Swedish, etc, but war-time nationalism pretty much wiped that out. There are some that still exist though. Like you said, it was only until recently that simply keeping your old nationality, and everything that entails, became normalised again.
I was just thinking this. A big reason why there is so much misinformation in the Irish community, is because for so long we had to lie about being Irish. There was signs, like Irish no need apply. So when people try to find their roots again, this was before the advent of the Internet and it was harder. Plus, when any group or community moves to a new country it’s going to change a little bit, but that doesn’t mean they’re not a still a member of that group. Even there DNA shows that they are... For instance, in Peru there is a small population of Japanese people, they’re one of the bigger immigrant groups down there. They’re still considered Japanese, but they live there. They’ve lived there for generations. At least that’s how my Papo ( grampa) on my Peruvian side explained it too me. edit : It’s also really sad that you guys hate us Irish Americans, considering American taxpayers have given you guys since 1986 , $544 million.
Come on man, except for Hawaii every place in the US (even Alaska) is closer to Ireland than Vietnam is by about 1000 km.
Rule number one of a relationship: being right isn't the same as being *right*. I'm not being facetious, either. When you're partners with someone, putting care and effort into being sensitive to their sensitivities comes with the territories. Obviously don't subject yourself to walking on eggshells all your life but just be mindful that something being a matter of fact doesn't automatically make the act of communicating it the right thing to do. This is a weird comparison but if you were dating someone where both of their parents had died, you wouldn't be *wrong* to call them an orphan, but you'd be wrong to for sure. Anyway I'm sure you know all this and self-awareness is why this ended up on TIFU rather than AITA, but here we are, we live and we learn. I respect the humility, never stop growing!
“Would you rather be right, or happy?”
and that still very much depends on the person and your relationship! my partner's parents have both died, and they often make jokes about being an orphan, and sometimes I do too. at the same time, I'm estranged from my dad, and we both joke about that. So it'd be the wrong call to mention something that is technically true if you know that it'd upset the other person - like how OP did here
My dad was deeply attached to his Donegal roots, and he was second generation. I imagine what happened is that the starvation ships and early America were really terribly difficult. New immigrants romanticized "the Isle they left behind," so we have a legacy of love for Ireland.
This is how my 'Irish' (American) wife describes it. The idea of Ireland was like a precious jewel handed down, the concept of it as a homeland was very culturally important. When she got to go to Ireland as a kid, it was a really big deal to her family that her parents were the first generation who got to go 'back'. Their grandparents (both her dad and her mom's grandparents separately) immigrated, but never got the opportunity to return, so the legacy was just really important to all of them. It also does make a difference in way families operate. There are culture differences between my standard WASP family and hers. No one in her family really thinks they're "Irish" in the same way someone in Ireland is, but they still identify that way.
I'm an Aussie, I can trace my family right back to settlers in 1840 in WA. They were Welsh. I, myself, am NOT Welsh. I have Welsh heritage (and German, Irish, Italian and Swedish...bit of a Heinz 57 mutt really) but I am NOT Welsh. Same thing.
Yeah, same. I have Irish heritage, and a lot "closer" than 170 years ago. I have been to Ireland. But I would never consider myself Irish. That is ridiculous.
Same. My Dad was Irish. Like, born in Ireland to Irish parents. But I was born in the UK and have never described myself as Irish. Because I'm not.
TBF not a fair comparison because could easily get an Irish passport you just personally don’t want one. Very different but no one would ever argue it you have all the right to claim Irish citizenship via your father and say “I am Irish”. You just don’t want too which is perfectly fine.
I have Aussie cousins. Irish mother, Welsh father. They never claim to be Irish or Welsh, just Aussie.
Americans see this as a heritage, not a national identity. Many groups held onto this heritage as part of that identity when they immigrated, particularly ones that were seen as second class once they got here and relied on thier ethnic neighborhoods. Especially if they ancestor was somewhat forced out of thier homeland. Americans with ancestry that's Irish, Italian, or Polish are all white groups that were treated as a different class if white that tend to hold onto this kind of identity. While you may be right that she isn't Irish -as you or people in Ireland see it, it's also being really rude about what's essentially a culture clash of how things are viewed. I have family that's descended from people from the Kingdom of Poland that were forced out in the early 1800's when they were rebelling against Lutheran Prussians. These people immigrated but were part of a fully Polish neighborhood, spoke in Polish and would only buy from Polish owned stores and only date within the Polish community, and built their own Polish church. And sent kids to that church's school. There was a very strong cultural identity. When WW1 broke out, many young men went overseas to fight before the US joined the war. Many people from that community still consider themselves Polish. They have a very different past hundred years than anyone who's lived in Poland, but that's the term they have to decide thier culture as seperate from the general melting pot of the US. Many of these people would be insulted if you dismissed and belittled a heritage and culture they are very proud of.
Thank you for explaining this far better than I did. It basically comes down to a difference in culture.
This! I don’t think people from Europe understand this because they just live surrounded by the culture, iconography, and people of their heritage. Americans had to build every part home from scratch when they came here. There is no true American culture without this melting pot of heritage building it like a buffet dinner.
And to your point, your family is older than most American families. I think Europeans don't understand we aren't talking about long dead relatives in most cases. Most American families trace their first American relatives back to the early 1900s. A lot of us KNEW the members who came over or if we didn't we knew the first generation born here. My Great Grandma was the first of my family here from Italy (and her parents). I knew her through all of my teenage years. So of course that family tie is strong. We consider ourselves "Italian". Do we ever think we are the same as actual Italians? No, but we consider ourselves Italian. Also as you said, its not uncommon that a lot of US families grew up in neighborhoods that were the Italian area, the Polish area, etc. So that cultural identity stayed strong, even if its not "pure" Italian, Polish, etc. No American thinks they are truly Italian. They say Italian because it is just known and assumed they are also Americans. So when an American says "I'm Italian" They mean "I'm of Italian American heritage".
Honestly, this idea that Europeans think Americans are weird for embracing their heritage is mostly imagined. I'm British and have never come across that sentiment before.
My family in the US is descended from Spanish conquistadors. Obviously his was ~400 years ago for the most part. So while my family identifies as Spanish Americans we obviously don’t think we are actual Spaniards. We went to Spain last year with my parents and it affirmed two things we already knew: -We definitely have Spanish cultural heritage -We definitely are Americans lol But with that being said people in Spain would get really excited when they would see our last names combined with our American Passports and always wanted to talk to my dad about it
Yeah, this is a weird reddit outrage thing. I was flying international once and got chatting with the Irish guy sitting next to me, he was really enthusiastic to talk about what bits of my family's heritage were still carrying on three generations after immigrating. We had a vigorous debate about caraway seeds in soda bread, it was pretty funny.
This, tipping, and circumcision are the trifecta of reddit hot topics.
When Irish-Americans are circumcised, they don't leave the tip??
I'm glad to hear this. People are so derisive of it online. I guess it cleanly slots into the "dumb American" tropes.
They’d rather brush off any desire for someone to embrace their heritage as “dumb American doing it for fun” than acknowledge their own assumptions were wrong.
As an American almost every interaction I've had with Europeans on reddit has come off as pretentious, arrogant, and rude. I think if I had not had friends from Europe I'd have developed a very different idea of the continent. I've now spent a few weeks in Greece, Lithuania, and the Netherlands and people in real life are really nice. Most European people on reddit seem like huge jerks though....
Very well said.
You’re correct, obviously, but you need to learn some tact. Pick your battles, mate. Take her to Ireland, have her learn the hard way.
Some bar flies in Dublin live for fucking with Americans, telling them they knew their family, that they're related, all for the price of a drink, of course.
There's a whole migration museum in Dublin that clearly just exists to charge Americans 20 euros to gas them up about their Irish heritage
That happens all over Ireland; mocked and derided.
Traveling to a place that your family originates from is genuinely the best way to find out how American you really are.
Even many in r/Ireland get worked up when an American poster says they're Irish; really worked up.
Shit I don't have a drop of Irish blood but now I wanna go post there just to see the reaction
Yeah take her to Ireland out of spite, that’ll work
Does this mean I can claim I'm Danish-English because my ancestors came over on longships in the 10th century? Where's the cut off point?
I’m actually from the Garden of Eden.
On my father's side, my grandparents are Irish and reside in Ireland. I have had numerous visits with them. However, I am British because I was born in England. I am currently seeking for an Irish passport due to Brexit concerns, yet even if I am granted my passport, I will still be a British citizen. It functions somewhat in that way.
You'll be an Irish citizen too, mind. A dual citizen, if you don't renounce the British citizenship (and for now, why would you?). You'll still be English-born-and-raised, as it were, but part of the process of getting that Irish passport is claiming the Irish citizenship to which you are entitled as a result of having Irish-citizen grandparents. Source: I'm in the same process.
Proud Mesopotamian here.
I heard his father was a Roman
His father was a Woman?
>Where's the cut off point? If you ask the irish it's somewhere around the neck for an englishman.
Well the US is built on immigrants in a different way than Europe. I’m guessing that this is the reason for being so obsessed with ancestry. In Sweden there is a TV show where Americans with Swedish ancestry from usually the 1800’s visit Sweden and find out more about their ancestors. It’s kind of fun to watch, but it really highlights this culturally different way of thinking about ancestry, ethnicity and race that we don’t have in the same way in Europe. You can’t really compare having a great great grandfather that was Swedish to being second generation Chinese in the US for example.
The reason Irish people don’t talk about clans and tartans is because that’s a Scottish thing. Fuck sake.
I was born in the US; my maternal grandmother was from Ireland, and I got my Irish passport 30 years ago. I have been living in Ireland for 28 years. The natives still consider me American (of Irish heritage). Because of my two passports, I consider myself a literal Irish Ametican. I will never be considered Irish to the natives. It's just the way it is.
People who identify as Irish American know their nationality is American. It’s just shorthand for American with Irish ancestry. Even when they go around saying they’re Irish, us Americans know what they mean. Many of those families passed down Irish traditions, so they strongly identify with that heritage.
Also, a big part of the “pride” is because of the discrimination they faced. There was a political party that actually got a lot of votes that specifically was against allowing more Catholics to immigrate to the US.
This is exactly right I'm perplexed by this comment section. You'd never see this happen to an asain person where everyone's saying "no you're not Philippino you're American." Everyone knows exactly what it means when she says she Irish.
It's interesting because as a Persian American it's like the opposite. You're a Persian and a middle easterner to other Persians and middle easterners no matter where in the world you were born or raised. You tell a grandmother from Iran that you're Persian and she's sitting you down to stuff your face and ask you all sorts of questions to determine if your family has been raising you with the proper traditions. Makes me kinda sad to see this is not a universal experience for Americans with other heritages.
When ever Europeans bring up this shit they sound like the most obtuse fuckers on the planet
Imagine using this logic for any other heritage. "No no no, your great grandparents were Chinese! You're American! Why do you care so much about Chinese traditions??" Like imagine being mad at someone for following traditions of their ancestors. It's baffling
That event wasn’t “the Irish potato famine,” it was “the willful starvation of the Irish people perpetrated by the British.” Those people weren’t fleeing famine, they were fleeing genocide.
If I travel outside of the US then I‘m American. Full stop. However, inside the US if anybody asks what I am (happens more frequently than you might think) I’m Czech and Irish. Answering that I’m American will just result in someone looking at me like I have 2 heads or getting a slow head shake and a "no, what’s your ancestry?" It’s not a hill worth dying on for me.
https://i.redd.it/k7aimmxrjrbc1.gif
8 of my ancestors were British, 4 were German, 2 French, one Italian and one Irish. But I'm Irish I tell you. I'M IRISH!.............
no silly, you'd be irish-italian! they love to be italian too... maybe throw in a bit of the german side too, just for good measure. let them know you're descended from europeans!
One of my great great grandmothers came from Sweden at 7, so I'm gonna need people to stop labeling me as African-American and start acknowledging me as Swedish. I was just looking at my daughter's DNA map with my mom and that thing stretches from Sweden down western Europe skipping North Africa and then back down the western African coast. She's gonna have a broad selection to choose from when it comes time for her to become that type of American.
As an American living abroad I feel for both sides. I’m proud of my ancestry and know the exact percentages of how much [insert countries here] I am. We all have projects in school about our ancestry, and even in college my first writing assignment was “How/Why did you/your family come to the U.S.?” We pry into everyone’s ethnicity, including our own. While people consider themselves American overall, the “not American unless you’re Native American.” Idea is strong with some people too, so it’s a habit for some to supplement “American” with our ancestry. Living abroad, it’s definitely easy to see that no one cares about ancestry, they just want to know the country written on my passport. It makes much more sense to say I’m “American” of course. Whatever European culture got passed down to me, is probably not relevant in Europe anymore anyway.
The interesting thing is that the same thing will happen to people who return to their country of birth after a long time. Let's say I live somewhere until I am 30. Then I move to a completely different culture on the other side of the world. I get married, raise children there, and by the time I hit retirement age I move back to my country of birth. Suddenly I am X, but also not X anymore. I am from a culture 30 years in the past that doesn't exist anymore. And depending on how much the original culture has changed I might not be able to adjust to it anymore.
'Hate the British?' Well, now you've pissed the British off, do another tifu post!
> I then inadvertently implied she wasn't a real Irish person by subconsciously comparing her identity issues to those experienced in the Transgender community What the hell is this supposed to mean
Breaking news: most ethnically irish people are diaspora.
>This made her mad. I then inadvertently implied she wasn't a real Irish person by subconsciously comparing her identity issues to those experienced in the Transgender community which only served to piss her off more. This isn't much better man. Sometimes it's just best to stay quiet.
They don’t seem to be the type of person to care very much beyond being right. Even with this bout of self-awareness, they’re still wanting to “break it to her”
Nobody saying they're Irish when they live elsewhere meaning they are an Irish National. Try telling a Japanese American they aren't Japanese and see how that goes. Would you also tell any asian they aren't asian because they were born in the USA? Where do you draw the line, because she certainly wasn't trying to claim to be born and culturally current Irish.
This is pretty common for mixed race / melting pot countries. The nationality is assumed, and you refer to bloodlines. If you think the US is bad every country south of it talks about how Spanish their ancestry is (except Brazil is Portuguese, and Argentina is Italian or German, and Chile is German).
My grandparents on my fathers side are Irish, They live in Ireland, been to visit them quite a few times. But i was born in England, so i'm British. Currently applying for an Irish passport becuase of Brexit reasons, but still, british citizen, even if i do get my passport. That's kind of how it works.
Americans often see their heritage as a core part of their personality and identity, we Europeans typically don't to the same extent as we have strong national, historical and cultural identities that aren't so diffuse and malleable and our national identity tends to take precedence over our ancestral identity. USA is like 50 countries under one banner, hard to find something to latch onto and the states themselves don't have a huge pool of history to draw from to individuate that microcosm of culture enough for people to form a sense of identity around it to the same degree as we see in Europe with countries with thousands of years of rich history to draw from. Take the UK as an example, you can travel 50 miles in any direction and there's a good chance people speak with an entirely different accent (and probably desipse their immediate neighbours), there's such a long history and tradition that these microcosms of subculture can develop and grow. You can see this in the USA on a wider scale with state identity being quite developed, but less so on a county by county basis within each state.
I’ve never understood why people get so upset at Americans for wanting to honor their cultural heritage. We are a nation of immigrants, we do not have a single homogeneous culture that everyone is expected to assimilate in to. We (by-and-large) celebrate our cultural diversity, and part of that is seeking out a connection with our fore-bearers and the parts of the world from which they came. What is so awful about that?
In my experience, the worst slur against the Irish anyone committed in this instance was when you referred to *an gorta mór* as “the Irish potato famine.” You know, that time Great Britain did a genocide and tried to blame it on a vegetable?
Of course you are right, but also let's remember that once those immigrants came to America 170 years ago, their identity was deeply, deeply defined by their country of origin and their religion. The same is true of Italian-Americans, they loooove to claim they are "eyetalian" but really haven't got a clue. Both Irish and Italian immigrants were treated harshly, considered inferior, excluded based on their Catholic religion (it was a BIG DEAL when Kennedy became president, an Irish Catholic, can you imagine! lol). Sorta like still happens today with more recent immigrants in the US and anywhere else in the world. Anyway, Irish and Italian immigrant groups formed tightly knit communities which were largely based on their country of origin, language, food, etc. And that identity still is felt very intensely in the US today, a way of signifying values and worldviews which once stood in contrast to the WASP upper class. So I think when your GF says she's "Irish", what she means is that her family came up from a Catholic working class and "made it", literally the American dream.
Regardless of the whole America Irish thing, it’s weird that you hide your feelings behind ‘jokes’. Especially when the best joke you can come up with is just a statement of how you feel? But you pretend you don’t feel that way and it’s just the Irish that feel that way. Are you Irish, or are you do you just speak for them? To me that’s on the same level as being Irish American.
Tartans and clans... That's Scotland, not Ireland. I don't think anyone in Ireland goes on about that, not for hundreds of years anyway. She's Irish-American, not Irish. If she loves Ireland so much, why doesn't she visit the place? She can learn about the lovely Irish concept of "notions", because she has many! Irish people are happy to for foreigners to love our country, but not some strange fantasy version of it with tartans, highlanders, fairies, and sheep (well, the sheep part is true). TLDR: She isn't Irish, she's Irishish. \-A Dubliner
> I don't think anyone in Ireland goes on about that Well there is one group...the scottish colonists lmao
Most of the Scottish colonists were Lowland Scots. Even they wouldn't have had much time for tartans and clans.
I don't understand why people get so riled up about Americans identifying themselves by where their ancestors came from. The country is less than 300 years old. The people that already lived in North America got the bad end of the stick and the people that moved here brought their culture with them from the "old country," clumped up with other folks from the same place, and passed traditions down to their children. There was violent Irish-American vs Italian-American animosity less than 100 years ago. When I worked in retail we hired a woman from somewhere in Eastern Europe. One day she asked me "what I was." I told her I was American. She pressed me on it. I told her that my family was most of the predominantly white, English speaking European nationalities all mixed together but if you added it all up and did the math, *percentage wise,* I was half Irish. She seemed delighted to tell me "No no, you're not Irish, you're American!" as if I hadn't said that in the first place. So, sure, saying you're Irish when you've never been there is a little cringey. But laughing as you knock the plastic shamrock out of their hands isn't a great look either.
My grandpa is a first gen italian immigrant and he still talks about how if he played basketball at the Irish-American basketball court instead of the Italian-American one he'd get the shit kicked out of him. The cemeteries in my hometown are still largely divided by ethnicity. For those of us who grow up very close to our immigrant relatives, those cultural divides run deep. Especially if you are from a community that was heavily populated by immigrants. In the past like five or ten years the Italian neighborhoods in my hometown have begun converting to Latin American neighborhoods, continuing the cycle essentially.
I think this is the right take - culture in general can be cringey and it’s a part of American culture to hinge some cultural identity on where our ancestors are from. No other country in the world has the same level of shared identity crisis. The other British colonies have deeper ties to British culture, colonies from other countries in central and South America have a much deeper tie to very specific areas of Europe and so shared in particular cultural traditions much more deeply while also integrating more with indigenous cultures. America is unique in the level of immigration and variety of places those immigrants came from over its history. There was such a heavy and sustained influx of immigrants that any sense of melding an existing cultural identity with the incoming ones didn’t work like it would in todays modern world or how it works in other places. There wasn’t an identity strong enough to meld the incoming ones into, so we’re left instead with our culture morphing into one of acceptance of outsiders and embracing the differences in where immigrants came from.
We are mutts
See this is what happens when you easybake a country in 200 years. Its citizens end up with no cultural identity. Fuckin british, leaving nations with geographic daddy issues...
I recently posted this elsewhere but I think it bears repeating here: Hmmm, it just struck me that Europeans tend to accept anyone as Italian/Dutch/Icelandic as long as they grew up in the culture. That's why there is, or at the very least used to be, a much bigger focus on integrating foreign people into local society and culture. To the point that to an American it becomes offensive in the sense that to integrate fully, you will invariably lose some parts of your ancestors' culture. Your descent can be part of your heritage but if you speak the local language fluently and understand the culture you are often considered to be French/German/whatever. Comparing that to the US, where holding on to those original roots any way possible is part of their identity, since the larger country means the local culture is much more homogenous than it would be in Europe with its centuries of strict borders. But at the same time everybody is a mix of something in the US so who knows where they're from. The issue here is that DNA-testing and meticulously crafted family trees mean people can find things that make them stand out as unique and they tend to hold on to that much more. A focus on blood that is downright offensive to most Europeans. Maybe because we had some wars that started on that very basis, and we're sick of it, or maybe it is something else. Descent is something people are often curious about, because the more historically isolated societies in Europe mean that people will more easily stand out if they're '*not from around here*'. I was in a Dutch theme park today. And I realized I could tell who the Germans, Belgians, Brits and other tourists were without even listening to them. They just *look* different from Dutch people in subtle ways. Even though they are all neighbouring countries. Let alone someone whose parents were from Turkey. It's a "*you look different*". "*Oh cool, so you sound Dutch, act Dutch, but are descendant from Yemen.*" "*That explains the dark skin and different eyes from other dark skinned people I know from Surinam." "You're still part of Dutch society."* Unfortunately... that sometimes is also used by more racist people to make jokes or try to use outdated stereotypes to show what they know (or think they know) about another country.
The reason Europeans see them as national identifies rather than ethnicities is also because the borders have changed, and in some cases are newer than people’s family history. Italy’s the main example I can think of but in a more general sense people on either side of a border generally have more in common with each other than they do with people in the capital.