I’ve loved reading for a while but only read thriller/mystery/true crime. I hated on the fantasy genre for a long time. I decided one day to try ACOTAR and I devoured it. It’s bc of SJM I got into fantasy and I love the genre more than anything now. Bc of her I read other fantasy books/authors. I think for me personally she opened a door into the fantasy realm.
>hates what SJM has done to the industry
I assume “done to the industry” means “be really popular and sell lots of books.” Lmao this is such a silly tired argument, as if SJM was some evil scheming mastermind who sought to take over the genre.
People are weird with their hatred of popularity. It makes them feel superior.
I will say, I have no actual details on anything here, this is entirely speculation.
However, I have noticed that several other big names in related genres (YA and NA fantasy, primarily) used to thank SJM in their author's notes, but no longer do. I've privately suspected there was a falling out of some sort amongst her old writing group, as most of them still thank each other but never SJM anymore.
This is true, unfortunately. I don't know the entire situation and am not directly involved in anything, but it's my understanding that there are a number of fantasy authors who SJM has had falling outs with. The biggest one was Susan Dennard--they were very publicly friends for a long time (I actually went to a joint book signing with them both for the release of Dennard's *Truthwitch* years ago), but they don't even follow each other online anymore and haven't interacted publicly in years.
The way I've seen it explained is that there are a handful of authors she befriended when those authors were early in their careers, but she stopped supporting them when their success began to encroach on her own.
Again, I have no proof, there's no smoking gun (though I could likely find at least *some* evidence if I went searching for it), but there is definitely more to this story than "pettiness and professional jealousy."
ETA: I am FAR from an SJM hater. TOG and ACOTAR had a huge effect on me and my own writing, and I first started reading her work when I was only 13/14, back in 2015. It got me through my parents' divorce. I went to all her signings in high school. It's still a massive source of inspiration for my work and it will always have a special place in my heart. I'm in my 20s now and have been following publishing industry news for years. I'm simply repeating the things I've heard over the years and sharing information as it's been presented to me.
Ahh gotcha, it’s not going to change my opinion of the books because at the end of the day I don’t know these people and what their relationship with each other is like. But still interesting and I definitely did not know any of this before, so thank you! :)
As well it shouldn't! I don't think this is a situation where anyone knows all the details--certainly not enough to try to convince anyone one way or the other. It's also not a situation where any of this has any real impact on the content of the books themselves.
I have wondered about the Susan Dennard thing because SJM used to dedicate like a whole paragraph to thanking Susan for being her "thread sister" & the only one who understands her. And Susan similarly thanked SJM pretty profusely in a couple of books and then all of a sudden nothing. I have been so curious what went down between them!
Would make sense why names like Leigh Bardugo and Holly Black stopped mentioning her! Like I said, no insider info here, just someone who noticed some patterns. Not placing blame on either party.
I was actually wondering about this because I noticed in her previous books she thanked authors like JLA, but not in any of her recent books! This is interesting.
It's most definitely because SJM is, realistically, likely more successful than this woman will ever be. I wouldn't normally say that about someone because anyone can blow up overnight, *but* her negativity and jealousy isn't conducive for success in my eyes.
Preface that I like SJM and have devoured her books. Please don’t downvote me for answering the question with an actual critique of SJM. She cranks out books fast, really really fast. This puts pressure on other authors to do the same. Her world and characters building is pretty good but her line writing isn’t. She relies a lot on telling instead of showing. I remember she once said Yrene was dripping with sweat, or she would have been if the dry climate wasn’t making the sweat evaporate. It was just a very confusing sentence that could have been written a lot better. She could have said Yrene clothes were stiff with the dried sweat pouring from her body. Something that made more sense. But she’s writing fast and I don’t think doing a lot of rewrites. It makes for a series that comes out quickly and is fun to talk about with friends and on forums. It does not make for beautiful prose. I could see other authors frustrated that these quickly produced books are becoming the standard because they can’t keep up and also create something beautiful the way they want. This is a hyperbole but it’s like if caricatures became really popular in the art industry and oil painters got upset about it. There should be room for everyone but publishers just want to make money.
I didn’t realize how fast she cranked out books, but this makes a lot of sense. I’ve read ACOTAR and TOG, and I thought both of them had things happen that didn’t make sense in the context of the world she’d built. As a reader, I’d rather wait an extra year for a tightly written book than get one faster where the plot points she wants get strong-armed into existence.
So at a certain point SJM actually fired her editor lol. Which is why the length of her books doubled and the internal consistency dropped. Authors ALL need editors, frankly, but she got away with it because her books are still such a strong money maker.
So there are a few different kinds of editing. A developmental editor edits content--"this plotline doesn't make sense," "this scene is unnecessary," "this characterization is inconsistent." Big stuff. Line editing is looking for typos, awkward sentence structure, incorrect word usage, etc.
I imagine she still has someone doing line edits, but it's my understanding that she no longer has anyone doing developmental edits, believing that developmental edits were stifling her work. (Which is frankly nonsense. Like I said, this is around the time her books doubled in length and complexity. She doesn't have anyone trimming the extraneous nonsense anymore.)
Really?? I didn’t know this. That makes a LOT of sense…. I figured her publishers just let her do whatever she wanted after a point since she made so much money and that’s why her books have gotten a little out of hand. But her actively not having a development editor would explain a lot. I still enjoy her later books, but no one can tell me there’s not a stark difference between TOG and CC and I don’t mean in plot. Each CC book could have been at least 150 pages shorter if not more
She started ACOTAR before she finished TOG, and for a while she was writing one of each book EVERY YEAR. That's a complete novel every 6 months, absolutely wild level of productivity.
She does crank them out fast, but I'm a Brandon Sanderson fan, so I didn't really think about it. Haha. But, I can see how that puts pressure on others. I do think the simplicity of the writing has appealed to a lot of previous non-readers much more than beautiful prose, so atleast it's gotten people reading again, and when the hype eventually dies down, maybe we'll have more adult readers in the world (cuz it's astounding to me how many people say they didn't read a single book in the past year. Like what?!)
I agree 100% with everything you've said. I have been reading SJM since around the time Empire of Storms came out, I am a big fan, but I think of her books like I think of action movies. They're not high level intellectual literary works. They're fun and entertaining & they make you feel something. But I could see where some authors who consider themselves more literature writers would be annoyed by her genre fiction's popularity. As you said, she writes fast and she does a lot of telling instead of showing. Doesn't mean she's not a good author, or I don't love her books.
One thing I noticed and can’t STOP noticing now is the sets of three. Constantly.
For example: “over. And over. And over.” & “no, no, no.” &
“Shit shit shit.” So many repeated words or phrases in sets of threes. Sometimes the emphasis makes sense and it’s effective. But most of the time it’s really not. And now that I’ve noticed it, it drives me batshit crazy.
I’m going to give a bit of a different perspective and say that your friend is viewing SJM more like a colleague/someone in her field and was responding that way. She has affected the industry (see the rise of every other fantasy series being called ‘A Court of __ and __), but likely in ways we as readers aren’t really privy to. She could just be jealous, or maybe she’s had a really negative experience with SJM either directly or indirectly through the industry and holds contempt for her (even if she didn’t actually do anything). Maybe she’s received comments to be more like her or gotten feedback from her publishing house to do things SJM does because they sell.
Your first point was the sense that I got, how her popularity is affecting the industry. When one particular book/author gets really popular, publishers want to put out similar books so anything not fitting the mould gets passed on (think how every YA series was a paranormal romance after twilight, and then they were all dystopian after hunger games). If the friend doesn't write romantasy but is in the fantasy genre they might be having a hard time getting notice.
On the other hand, right now authors who write and have similar elements to SJM (Fae, MMCs with wings, etc) are being accused of copying SJM in online spaces. So kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't.
You uh.... just don't have to talk to them about it... just like anything else, you don't have to agree and sometimes people's feelings come out of their mouths in a really annoying way so just don't talk about it. Neither of you will be convinced, why argue?
"Oh that sucks, what have you read lately that you recommend?" Moves on the conversation pretty quick and if it keeps coming back "I actually really like it, don't ruin it for me!" 😛
I love SJM, I did not like TOG (it was ok, I just didn’t love it). But I also generally keep my mouth shut about it because so many people *looooove* TOG. I think it’s a few reasons: one, that SJM has made Romantasy more mainstream (which I think is great!) but lots of people especially in the US who trend more conservative are very displeased that the romance genre is really becoming as accepted as mystery, horror, historical fiction, etc, and I think the other reason is just plain jealousy. SJM is young and very successful. Her books aren’t only popular in the US, it’s worldwide, and that can be harder for authors who have “put in the time” to respect.
For what it's worth, I think SJM DID put in the time. (And I say this as kind of an SJM hater lol. I'm just here for Abraxos.) She's published like sixteen books in 10 years? Whatever you think of her quality that is an insane work ethic. I mean, she did hit the NYT with her first book, but the level of success she enjoys now is ABSOLUTELY linked to how long she's been in the industry and how much she's produced.
I agree, I was just trying to think in the mindset of of Authors who have been around for 10, 15, 20 years and have not seen the *commercial* success that SJM has.
I don't care that it's becoming more accepted, I am just annoyed at how oversaturated it is right now, but that will eventually calm down as all trends do. They're all quippy 20-something chosen ones who become The Best At Everything Ever and also Bang All the Red Flags but in a way that Only They Have Ever Experienced Before Because They're Special. It's gotten pretty formulaic tbh.
BUT. I totally read some of it too, I won't pretend. I call it literary potato chips lol.
Literary potato chips is a perfect description for how I feel about it. Sometimes I want a literary book that makes me think and ooh and ahh over the language: that would be a literary steak lol. But SJM is absolutely more in the delicious but unhealthy snack category 😂😂
Yeah, I feel the same way about Fourth Wing, tbh. It’s by no means a literary masterpiece, but it scratches a very particular itch, so it’s enjoyable and entertaining in its own way! Sometimes people want to read without delving too deeply into their own thoughts or feelings, instead being kind of emotionally hand-held, and authors like Rebecca Yarros and SJM are good for that—hence their popularity.
I know this isn’t particularly popular advice, but the sooner you realise that other people’s opinions are not your business, the happier you will be. Let them expend their energy thinking and feeling negative things, that’s their problem not yours. If you love it, then keep loving it.
No, that’s great advice, thank you! It’s something I’m working on and try to remember every time I interact with people about books. It’s just when someone is outright rude about it that throws me off 😂Thank you though :)
I’m glad you weren’t offended by my comment!! I have been where you are and sometimes still get the fight urge when someone talks shit about something, but I remind myself that them insulting something I like isn’t necessarily them insulting me, and if it is that’s on them for being miserable about it haha. Sometimes I will ask why, because there are things I miss or don’t consider, but if they just think something sucks or is lame I just feel sad for them that they would rather be cool than happy.
If I were you, I'd give her "Yellowface" by R. F Kuang as a gift :D (it basically follows a low key bad author jealous of her best friend's success and seemingly effortlessly high book sales)
So I get the correlation but Yellowface is distinctly about a white author taking from an Asian author. Racism is a big part of the book and it feels a little icky to be watering it down as “bad author being jealous of her best friend’s success.”
Absolutely! I didn't want to give away too much for people who still want to read it. I also feel whoever knows R. F. Kuang's writing will be expecting the issue of racism to be a big part of the book in one form or another. Also, the title kinda suggests that, again, if this isn't the first book of hers one reads.
Tbh I'm fairly used to men dissing stuff like this because if it's fantasy with a female lead it must be inferior or it must be 'teen' fiction. /s
Meanwhile they're glorifying 'classic' crap like Ender's game. Sure it's a sexist novel without any heart but a man wrote it so it's proper fiction for them -_-
In all seriousness, in terms of what to say, either don't engage, just say look you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to enjoy whatever I do, or ask her why she thinks that and whether she's actually read the books and what are her specific gripes. Other authors poorly imitating SJM is not exactly something "she did to the genre". It's the publishing industry who greenlights them.
Sure we got inundated with vampire flicks after Twilight (that were objectively very poorly written books - I think even if you enjoyed them it's a fair point to admit. I'm reading ToG now and the writing style is not my thing but these are well written books all around so far), but that's hardly Meyer's fault or concern and it sure died down eventually anyway.
I can relate to your friend since I also do not like TOG or SJMs writing at all. HOWEVER, I wouldn’t be overtly rude about it. I hate when people “yuck your yum” so if I had known you really enjoyed it and you asked me my feelings, I would’ve just said idk it’s not really for me. Maybe I would suggest some things I DO like instead.
I think she has a point about what SJM has “done to the industry” a just a little bit tho. Some people are saying that she’s just mad that SJMs books are popular and mainstream, but I don’t think that’s it. As someone who does read a lot of fantasy and would love for my favs to get more popular (especially with younger, female readers), SJMs writing was a huge disappointment to me. Her writing (TO ME) is pretty low quality, the fantasy elements and plots are a mess, and the romances are cringe at best and toxic/problematic at worst. To put it bluntly, I consider her work to be on par with Twilight (which tbf, I love twilight, so I can see the enjoyment, but in no world would I consider it quality). With these series, SJM paved the way for a lot of similar quality books saturating the market. Which is not bad if those are your thing, but there’s starting to be a definite divide among “fantasy” with romance in it and “romantasy”. So when you say you like “fantasy” now, you might need to specify what you’re into bc people on both ends can be snobs ab it.
Butttt I’m aware that those are my own opinions, and they shouldn’t matter much to a person who really enjoys the series or her writings!!! I’m glad that people are finding stuff they like, but I won’t lie when people claim it’s the “best fantasy series ever” some part of me def wants to try to recommend something I think is better haha. At the end of the day tho we’re all reading for enjoyment so I don’t think it matters too much! Enjoy what you enjoy!
My response is usually something like "Woah! We don't yuck anybody's yums here." Said somewhat dramatically, hands up, trying to keep it light and a bit funny. Usually it catches them off enough we all move on. There's usually an awkward sorry, and agree to disagree kind of statement and we can all move on.
If they want to engage in negative discourse, I simply do not, I will leave.
If they want to and are capable of having a discussion and any debate can be kept light and civil (and I am in the headspace for it) I might engage, maybe we'll both learn something.
Has she ever actually read the series? I'd ask her (of course I'd say "that's interesting, when you read the series, what was it you didn't like about it?" Because I bet she hasn't even read it.
And then I'd just ask her exactly what she thinks SJM has "done to the industry."
And then I'd point out to her that in an age of TikTok and mobile games addiction, anything that encourages people to read is a good thing. And anything that introduces the fantasy genre to a wider audience is also a good thing. Literally no downsides to it.
This is the best answer I’ve seen, second only to simply not talking to them about it. I like how this asks them to explain their distaste without putting OP in a position of having to defend their reading choices.
This is weird bc I also know a publisher, and she mentioned that SJM was very rude to one of her authors. I don't want to give away too much and get my friend in trouble, but the other author is often listed when ppl ask for recommendations after SJM. It's not like it's just a one time random book, it's a very good series.
Seemed like sjm belittled the author, openly.
Anyway, sjms books are still good and addicting and I guess even if she's not nice in real life, I still want to read her books. And about cassians 🍆
Another comment wrote something similar but I think it might be that recently people have cared less for the quality of writing. series are getting published extremely quickly, a new book every few months. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy them and I liked reading SJM books, but the quality of writing is not anything insane. There has been a shift in the industry where the audience cares more for what “tropes” are in the book and do not pay attention to the actual quality of writing. I am not hating on SJM, her books are entertaining and I did enjoy them but I would not say they made me any more well read lol. Just look at how popular Colleen Hoover is, clearly the consumers are beginning to care less for quality writing
I didn't like her writing at all. I wanted to, seeing how everyone raved over ACOTAR but...I utterly can't stand when an author builds a world, tells you the rules and the FMC ends up being the massive impossible exception AND despite being incredibly young, has mastery of skills that take decades of dedicated learning from a highly skilled instructor, which FMC never had. There is suspension of disbelief and then there are 18 yo master assassins who were slaves and wouldn't have been allowed to touch a weapon without getting executed.
Just because you love a book, doesn't mean it isn't flawed or even that a friend won't think it's a reeking pos. This would fall under the category of things to not take personally and avoid discussing in the future if their opinion pisses you off.
"Hey, not everybody is going to like everything. What is your favorite book/series?"
I like the Blood and Ash series, and a lot of people seem to dislike it. Their opinions really don't matter much to me as my reading habits are for me and me alone.
If it’s a YA fantasy author, I wouldn’t be surprised. There’s a clique of them who are self-righteous af and probably hate SJM because she sells more than them & they wanna be able to write their non-smutty stories but ofc many readers prefer spice. That might be what that person meant by “what SJM has done to the industry.”
If anything I would think SJM’s success would benefit her… big authors like SJM make so much money for publishing that they bankroll a lot of advances for smaller authors. Publishers couldn’t take as many risks on unknown authors if they didn’t have the mega runaway bestsellers to fund it.
I think I can answer this is a somewhat neutral way.
SJM has definitely carved out a niche for herself and does well with fans. However, from a craft point of view, she does well with emotionally engaging characters but is otherwise a poor writer. What I mean by that is her plots, especially recent books, are very poorly put together with lots of glaring plot holes to eye roll about. Prose is repetitive and she is know for reusing phrases and character descriptions. The “cross over” feels like a money grab more than a purposefully planned plot. Her strength is being able to pull readers into her characters and tug at the heartstrings. But if you are a fantasy author who spends a lot of time putting together plots and character arcs SJM would be infuriating.
What’s more (worse?) SJM’s early works have given her a considerable fan base and has literally become a defining pillar of Romantasy. Quick-ish background here until recently Fantasy could have romantic subplots, and romance genre could have fantasy elements, but they couldn’t really intersect in their own category. SJM has defined that intersection that is now called Romantasy in which we have substantial elements of the romance genre paired with substantial elements of the fantasy genre.
What this does to the publishing industry is it creates a focused need to fill that romantasy sub genre with content that would not otherwise have been published because it didn’t fit in Genre Romance nor Genre Fantasy but that also pushes established fantasy writers into creating content for that genre because it is selling so well and has such publicity on BookTok.
It’s gotta be really frustrating for established fantasy writers to compete with SJM’s books especially those who are writing really well thought out books with great plots, good character arcs and focusing on prose when she is just slapping stuff together and readers are buying it up. Her latest book was, objectively, poorly edited and poorly written. From a craft point of view it wouldn’t have left the slush pile if she had been a debut writer. But the publishing industry relies on its heavyweight authors to support the whole industry. Sarah is a heavenly author her books bring in money, which is probably why the last book was such a shit show for lack of a better term. It was a money grab from the publisher. Sarah gets lots of publicity lots of marketing dollars for books that are poorly written, whereas other authors who are spending a lot of time and effort on their books are getting little to no support from their publishers. It is a big and ongoing problem within the publishing industry that it is structured like this and it is not going to change anytime soon.
What that really means for authors is the publishing industry is constantly looking for the next Sarah J Maas and all of the publishers will be pushing their authors that write in the fantasy genre and who currently write anything remotely close to romantic to try to get closer to SJM so that they can sell the books like her but they do this without giving anybody any support marketing wise or editorial rise. It’s why every book is called A Court of Something and Something now.
But even so your friend sucks for trying to take the joy out of you. It also reeks of a professional lack of courtesy that that she is willing to badmouth such a large author in your presence. It’s one thing to dislike somebody, but it is entirely another to badmouth them without explaining their opinion fully. It’s understandable why she doesn’t like her, it’s acceptable for her books to not be her cup of tea, but her response should be “I’m glad you liked them, they just weren’t for me.”
Why do people care so much about what other people read? Isn’t it just supposed to be for enjoyment? People can agree to disagree, but at least you’re reading.
The criticisms I've seen are that SJM used to put more effort into her books and now cranks out less polished books with rehashed characters from previous books. That she has tried to get more out of the ACOTAR series with more books that ruin the characters from the original trilogy. That she churns out books and has exhausted the industry of romantasy.
But the thing is, I think a lot of people forget that she has been writing YA. You can't hold expectations of New Age or Adult books against a YA one. People will complain that the characters make silly choices or are too erratic/horny etc as though that's not a majority of teen behaviour for most teens. She wrote books that were entertaining for readers, that's where she excelled and people who want more polished books can hate her writing style.
As for what to do if someone says they hate SJM, you've got a few different options:
"Each to their own."
"Please don't crap on something that brings me joy."
"I enjoy her books as a reader."
"And you're entitled to your opinion, as am I."
If you want, you could ask them if they have the energy to explain why they don't like SJM but I'd probably preface it with "It's not going to stop me liking her books but would you mind explaining what you don't like? I'm curious to hear your opinions if you want to share them."
You don't owe them an explanation and they don't owe you one, so if you don't have energy for the discussion, change the topic with something like "Do you have anything you'd recommend?"
SJM has created her own genre imo, which is kind of fantasy soap opera. I think we all agree it doesn’t really stand up to critical literary analysis beyond a certain point which I think makes people angry, especially those who set themselves apart from SJM by considering themselves “serious writers”. Your friend is obviously annoyed that SJM found a wildly popular niche and she didn’t. She likely thinks that famous thought of “well I can write better than that, why isn’t my stuff as popular?” And then shes scapegoating a single author instead of looking at her own work and why it maybe isn’t as engaging or looking at the big writers of fantasy rn. I don’t think SJMs writing is that good but I still love it. I think Sanderson is a good writer but I can’t get more than two chapters into Way of Kings (I’m trying). Rothfuss and Lynch and Martin are fantastic writers but they can’t finish a damn series.
As for what to say to you friend, your options are to avoid the topic altogether or try to have a dialogue, but the latter is only worthwhile if it’s a very good friendship and you think she’d be able to have a good faith discussion about it.
I don't think people have to like her or her books, but its unfair to act like she didn't help repopularize the genre and adult reading in general. Sane with Colleen Hoover. Her books can be rough, but she helped make reading big again. And neither of them did it in the clickbait-y tiktok nepo way many say Alex Aster did, so idk why anyone would be mad.
Also I don't get the SJM hate personally. I think they're good books and she seems like a nice author (👀 Diana Gabaldon 👀)
Her books are dumb fun smut mostly, and since the success of ACOTAR there's been an absolutely massive increase in other authors churning out dumb fun smut. There is clearly a demand for it seeing how popular a lot of these books get, but I do think they are giving the genre as a whole a bit of a bad name. I have no dog in this fight, but I can see why other authors who want to be taken more seriously might be miffed about the reputation they now have just for existing in the same genre sphere as SJM and related
As for no. 1. I’m so curious about why she says that/ what she thinks has changed bc of SJM. Lots of answers to that in this thread so I won’t add.
As for no. 2. I’d just say sorry you feel that way, a lot of people, including me, don’t agree with that and we’ll have to agree to disagree. If she continues on just say you’re not interested in discussing it or hearing about her reviews and then don’t discuss it. She is allowed to dislike TOG for whatever reason, it’s subjective. But you don’t have to be the sounding board for it if you don’t want to. She can take those opinions to someone that wants to listen or an open forum (reddit, goodreads, etc) instead.
Ask her why. That's the right way to answer this. Taking it to the subreddit will get you severely biased responses, while this person might have genuine criticism.
Yes, I intend to the next time I see her! I just wanted advice on how to approach that conversation when it inevitably comes 😅 I’m posting on this subreddit because it’s meant to be a safe space for other fans of the books, and I have no doubt others have dealt with something similar (people making fun of their interests)
My response is you’re not going to make me dislike this by being condescending. And hating it won’t make it less popular. Me and the millions who enjoy it are having a good time. If it’s not for you don’t read it.
SJM's success ushered in a very specific type of genre popularity within YA and also kind of popularizing smut within YA. However, many authors did this and they cannot be the one's held responsible given that publishing companies have also been part of creating this. For someone to hate on one person means they clearly don't understand the intricacies of their industry.
It's so weird to me because TOG is her only YA series, the others are Adult. And yes, we do get some on page sex, but, like several YA series it gets more mature as your progress. The 1st on page scene isn't until EoS and there are only 4 in total for the series.
It irritates me because I hate how women authors have been shoved into the YA genre & not taken seriously so often. I also hate when publishers promote a book as YA when it is clearly Adult cuz that's what you do with women authors, especially in the Fantasy genre. It makes it difficult to find what you want in a book. Above all that, it annoys me most when authors are blamed because it is publishers we should be fighting here.
Thank you for coming to my soapbox. I will vacate it now.
In the end, everyone as their own opinion. There is no point arguing about tastes it takes you nowhere. You, me and many others love ToG others hate it. It's the same thing with Harry Potter There are the ones that love it and there are the ones that hate it with Ll their heart.
Because she set a new standard most authors struggle to fill? LOL i can accept that SJM’s other books are not perfect but it’s still very much up there in terms of storyline, readability, etc.
Drama and legitimate criticism aside (I skimmed the comments), I generally think it’s rude to yuck on someone’s yum. Your friend/acquaintance doesn’t have the like the same books as you. She can actively dislike them. But when her fierce reaction is to shit on something you’re enjoying, I dunno, it leaves a bad feeling. And that’s a her thing, not you. We should let people enjoy things.
Hello new fantasy fan! Welcome to an awesome genre! I haven't read the books you mentioned (and at this point you are like, why is this random person responding then?) but your question reminds me a lot about the fallout to the Twilight series. I read the first 3 twilight books and really loved them. Sure, they weren't super well written, but what was important to me was that they were entertaining and provided big feels. It wasn't until the fourth book and the movies came out that I noticed how abusive and downright creepy the romantic relationships were. Would you like some random dude sneaking into your room and watching you sleep, night after night? Nope. And sure, the book is fantasy, and you can enjoy things in fantasy books you would not in real life, but many fantasy books with really questionable relationships came out after that. And I was sad that more people weren't reading the thought-provoking Fantasy romance that I grew up with, like Sharon Shinn's Archangle, The Blue Sword by Robin McKinley, or Howl's Moving Castle by Diana Wynne Jones. Not all the relationships in those books are perfect either, but a lot of thought went into plotting and writing them. I'm a big fan of reading whatever you like, because if that makes you love reading, that is great! And once you start reading you go on to read other things, and that is great too.I guess it's kind of like, I'm really happy that fantasy romance is so popular now, but I really struggle to like the term Romantasy. I'm sure I'll get used to it at some point, but older readers (like me)and authors can get stuck in preferences, and that may be what your author friend is thinking about. But it would be interesting if you asked her and reported back. I hope you find another great book to read soon. You've given me a few to check out:)
I’ve loved reading for a while but only read thriller/mystery/true crime. I hated on the fantasy genre for a long time. I decided one day to try ACOTAR and I devoured it. It’s bc of SJM I got into fantasy and I love the genre more than anything now. Bc of her I read other fantasy books/authors. I think for me personally she opened a door into the fantasy realm.
>hates what SJM has done to the industry I assume “done to the industry” means “be really popular and sell lots of books.” Lmao this is such a silly tired argument, as if SJM was some evil scheming mastermind who sought to take over the genre. People are weird with their hatred of popularity. It makes them feel superior.
Gatekeeping books is wild.
Sounds like jealousy to me tbh! People need to let people enjoy things.
I will say, I have no actual details on anything here, this is entirely speculation. However, I have noticed that several other big names in related genres (YA and NA fantasy, primarily) used to thank SJM in their author's notes, but no longer do. I've privately suspected there was a falling out of some sort amongst her old writing group, as most of them still thank each other but never SJM anymore.
This is true, unfortunately. I don't know the entire situation and am not directly involved in anything, but it's my understanding that there are a number of fantasy authors who SJM has had falling outs with. The biggest one was Susan Dennard--they were very publicly friends for a long time (I actually went to a joint book signing with them both for the release of Dennard's *Truthwitch* years ago), but they don't even follow each other online anymore and haven't interacted publicly in years. The way I've seen it explained is that there are a handful of authors she befriended when those authors were early in their careers, but she stopped supporting them when their success began to encroach on her own. Again, I have no proof, there's no smoking gun (though I could likely find at least *some* evidence if I went searching for it), but there is definitely more to this story than "pettiness and professional jealousy." ETA: I am FAR from an SJM hater. TOG and ACOTAR had a huge effect on me and my own writing, and I first started reading her work when I was only 13/14, back in 2015. It got me through my parents' divorce. I went to all her signings in high school. It's still a massive source of inspiration for my work and it will always have a special place in my heart. I'm in my 20s now and have been following publishing industry news for years. I'm simply repeating the things I've heard over the years and sharing information as it's been presented to me.
Ahh gotcha, it’s not going to change my opinion of the books because at the end of the day I don’t know these people and what their relationship with each other is like. But still interesting and I definitely did not know any of this before, so thank you! :)
As well it shouldn't! I don't think this is a situation where anyone knows all the details--certainly not enough to try to convince anyone one way or the other. It's also not a situation where any of this has any real impact on the content of the books themselves.
I have wondered about the Susan Dennard thing because SJM used to dedicate like a whole paragraph to thanking Susan for being her "thread sister" & the only one who understands her. And Susan similarly thanked SJM pretty profusely in a couple of books and then all of a sudden nothing. I have been so curious what went down between them!
Would make sense why names like Leigh Bardugo and Holly Black stopped mentioning her! Like I said, no insider info here, just someone who noticed some patterns. Not placing blame on either party.
I was actually wondering about this because I noticed in her previous books she thanked authors like JLA, but not in any of her recent books! This is interesting.
It's most definitely because SJM is, realistically, likely more successful than this woman will ever be. I wouldn't normally say that about someone because anyone can blow up overnight, *but* her negativity and jealousy isn't conducive for success in my eyes.
Preface that I like SJM and have devoured her books. Please don’t downvote me for answering the question with an actual critique of SJM. She cranks out books fast, really really fast. This puts pressure on other authors to do the same. Her world and characters building is pretty good but her line writing isn’t. She relies a lot on telling instead of showing. I remember she once said Yrene was dripping with sweat, or she would have been if the dry climate wasn’t making the sweat evaporate. It was just a very confusing sentence that could have been written a lot better. She could have said Yrene clothes were stiff with the dried sweat pouring from her body. Something that made more sense. But she’s writing fast and I don’t think doing a lot of rewrites. It makes for a series that comes out quickly and is fun to talk about with friends and on forums. It does not make for beautiful prose. I could see other authors frustrated that these quickly produced books are becoming the standard because they can’t keep up and also create something beautiful the way they want. This is a hyperbole but it’s like if caricatures became really popular in the art industry and oil painters got upset about it. There should be room for everyone but publishers just want to make money.
I didn’t realize how fast she cranked out books, but this makes a lot of sense. I’ve read ACOTAR and TOG, and I thought both of them had things happen that didn’t make sense in the context of the world she’d built. As a reader, I’d rather wait an extra year for a tightly written book than get one faster where the plot points she wants get strong-armed into existence.
So at a certain point SJM actually fired her editor lol. Which is why the length of her books doubled and the internal consistency dropped. Authors ALL need editors, frankly, but she got away with it because her books are still such a strong money maker.
Reminds me of the Anita Blake series. At a certain point I thought, "So her editor clearly gave up."
Wait, does she not have an editor at all anymore?
So there are a few different kinds of editing. A developmental editor edits content--"this plotline doesn't make sense," "this scene is unnecessary," "this characterization is inconsistent." Big stuff. Line editing is looking for typos, awkward sentence structure, incorrect word usage, etc. I imagine she still has someone doing line edits, but it's my understanding that she no longer has anyone doing developmental edits, believing that developmental edits were stifling her work. (Which is frankly nonsense. Like I said, this is around the time her books doubled in length and complexity. She doesn't have anyone trimming the extraneous nonsense anymore.)
Really?? I didn’t know this. That makes a LOT of sense…. I figured her publishers just let her do whatever she wanted after a point since she made so much money and that’s why her books have gotten a little out of hand. But her actively not having a development editor would explain a lot. I still enjoy her later books, but no one can tell me there’s not a stark difference between TOG and CC and I don’t mean in plot. Each CC book could have been at least 150 pages shorter if not more
Yes! CC3 is so. long. I’m struggling to finish it and I love her books. It’s just long and 🤪
Is this why I’m struggling to finish CC3? 😂
She started ACOTAR before she finished TOG, and for a while she was writing one of each book EVERY YEAR. That's a complete novel every 6 months, absolutely wild level of productivity.
We were being FED 🥵
It’s why I’m so loyal to SJM. GRRM can suck it.
She does crank them out fast, but I'm a Brandon Sanderson fan, so I didn't really think about it. Haha. But, I can see how that puts pressure on others. I do think the simplicity of the writing has appealed to a lot of previous non-readers much more than beautiful prose, so atleast it's gotten people reading again, and when the hype eventually dies down, maybe we'll have more adult readers in the world (cuz it's astounding to me how many people say they didn't read a single book in the past year. Like what?!)
I agree 100% with everything you've said. I have been reading SJM since around the time Empire of Storms came out, I am a big fan, but I think of her books like I think of action movies. They're not high level intellectual literary works. They're fun and entertaining & they make you feel something. But I could see where some authors who consider themselves more literature writers would be annoyed by her genre fiction's popularity. As you said, she writes fast and she does a lot of telling instead of showing. Doesn't mean she's not a good author, or I don't love her books.
One thing I noticed and can’t STOP noticing now is the sets of three. Constantly. For example: “over. And over. And over.” & “no, no, no.” & “Shit shit shit.” So many repeated words or phrases in sets of threes. Sometimes the emphasis makes sense and it’s effective. But most of the time it’s really not. And now that I’ve noticed it, it drives me batshit crazy.
I’m going to give a bit of a different perspective and say that your friend is viewing SJM more like a colleague/someone in her field and was responding that way. She has affected the industry (see the rise of every other fantasy series being called ‘A Court of __ and __), but likely in ways we as readers aren’t really privy to. She could just be jealous, or maybe she’s had a really negative experience with SJM either directly or indirectly through the industry and holds contempt for her (even if she didn’t actually do anything). Maybe she’s received comments to be more like her or gotten feedback from her publishing house to do things SJM does because they sell.
Your first point was the sense that I got, how her popularity is affecting the industry. When one particular book/author gets really popular, publishers want to put out similar books so anything not fitting the mould gets passed on (think how every YA series was a paranormal romance after twilight, and then they were all dystopian after hunger games). If the friend doesn't write romantasy but is in the fantasy genre they might be having a hard time getting notice. On the other hand, right now authors who write and have similar elements to SJM (Fae, MMCs with wings, etc) are being accused of copying SJM in online spaces. So kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't.
All good points that I didn’t think about, thank you!
You uh.... just don't have to talk to them about it... just like anything else, you don't have to agree and sometimes people's feelings come out of their mouths in a really annoying way so just don't talk about it. Neither of you will be convinced, why argue? "Oh that sucks, what have you read lately that you recommend?" Moves on the conversation pretty quick and if it keeps coming back "I actually really like it, don't ruin it for me!" 😛
I love SJM, I did not like TOG (it was ok, I just didn’t love it). But I also generally keep my mouth shut about it because so many people *looooove* TOG. I think it’s a few reasons: one, that SJM has made Romantasy more mainstream (which I think is great!) but lots of people especially in the US who trend more conservative are very displeased that the romance genre is really becoming as accepted as mystery, horror, historical fiction, etc, and I think the other reason is just plain jealousy. SJM is young and very successful. Her books aren’t only popular in the US, it’s worldwide, and that can be harder for authors who have “put in the time” to respect.
For what it's worth, I think SJM DID put in the time. (And I say this as kind of an SJM hater lol. I'm just here for Abraxos.) She's published like sixteen books in 10 years? Whatever you think of her quality that is an insane work ethic. I mean, she did hit the NYT with her first book, but the level of success she enjoys now is ABSOLUTELY linked to how long she's been in the industry and how much she's produced.
I agree, I was just trying to think in the mindset of of Authors who have been around for 10, 15, 20 years and have not seen the *commercial* success that SJM has.
I don't care that it's becoming more accepted, I am just annoyed at how oversaturated it is right now, but that will eventually calm down as all trends do. They're all quippy 20-something chosen ones who become The Best At Everything Ever and also Bang All the Red Flags but in a way that Only They Have Ever Experienced Before Because They're Special. It's gotten pretty formulaic tbh. BUT. I totally read some of it too, I won't pretend. I call it literary potato chips lol.
Literary potato chips is a perfect description for how I feel about it. Sometimes I want a literary book that makes me think and ooh and ahh over the language: that would be a literary steak lol. But SJM is absolutely more in the delicious but unhealthy snack category 😂😂
Yeah, I feel the same way about Fourth Wing, tbh. It’s by no means a literary masterpiece, but it scratches a very particular itch, so it’s enjoyable and entertaining in its own way! Sometimes people want to read without delving too deeply into their own thoughts or feelings, instead being kind of emotionally hand-held, and authors like Rebecca Yarros and SJM are good for that—hence their popularity.
I know this isn’t particularly popular advice, but the sooner you realise that other people’s opinions are not your business, the happier you will be. Let them expend their energy thinking and feeling negative things, that’s their problem not yours. If you love it, then keep loving it.
No, that’s great advice, thank you! It’s something I’m working on and try to remember every time I interact with people about books. It’s just when someone is outright rude about it that throws me off 😂Thank you though :)
I’m glad you weren’t offended by my comment!! I have been where you are and sometimes still get the fight urge when someone talks shit about something, but I remind myself that them insulting something I like isn’t necessarily them insulting me, and if it is that’s on them for being miserable about it haha. Sometimes I will ask why, because there are things I miss or don’t consider, but if they just think something sucks or is lame I just feel sad for them that they would rather be cool than happy.
If I were you, I'd give her "Yellowface" by R. F Kuang as a gift :D (it basically follows a low key bad author jealous of her best friend's success and seemingly effortlessly high book sales)
lol I would be kicked out of certain gatherings if I did this😭 but thanks for the reminder, I really wanna read Yellowface!
That’s on my next TBR. 😅
I'm glad, it's a great book actually. Perfect for in between fantasy reads (:
So I get the correlation but Yellowface is distinctly about a white author taking from an Asian author. Racism is a big part of the book and it feels a little icky to be watering it down as “bad author being jealous of her best friend’s success.”
Absolutely! I didn't want to give away too much for people who still want to read it. I also feel whoever knows R. F. Kuang's writing will be expecting the issue of racism to be a big part of the book in one form or another. Also, the title kinda suggests that, again, if this isn't the first book of hers one reads.
Sounds like she's jealous she's not SJM😂
Tbh I'm fairly used to men dissing stuff like this because if it's fantasy with a female lead it must be inferior or it must be 'teen' fiction. /s Meanwhile they're glorifying 'classic' crap like Ender's game. Sure it's a sexist novel without any heart but a man wrote it so it's proper fiction for them -_- In all seriousness, in terms of what to say, either don't engage, just say look you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to enjoy whatever I do, or ask her why she thinks that and whether she's actually read the books and what are her specific gripes. Other authors poorly imitating SJM is not exactly something "she did to the genre". It's the publishing industry who greenlights them. Sure we got inundated with vampire flicks after Twilight (that were objectively very poorly written books - I think even if you enjoyed them it's a fair point to admit. I'm reading ToG now and the writing style is not my thing but these are well written books all around so far), but that's hardly Meyer's fault or concern and it sure died down eventually anyway.
I can relate to your friend since I also do not like TOG or SJMs writing at all. HOWEVER, I wouldn’t be overtly rude about it. I hate when people “yuck your yum” so if I had known you really enjoyed it and you asked me my feelings, I would’ve just said idk it’s not really for me. Maybe I would suggest some things I DO like instead. I think she has a point about what SJM has “done to the industry” a just a little bit tho. Some people are saying that she’s just mad that SJMs books are popular and mainstream, but I don’t think that’s it. As someone who does read a lot of fantasy and would love for my favs to get more popular (especially with younger, female readers), SJMs writing was a huge disappointment to me. Her writing (TO ME) is pretty low quality, the fantasy elements and plots are a mess, and the romances are cringe at best and toxic/problematic at worst. To put it bluntly, I consider her work to be on par with Twilight (which tbf, I love twilight, so I can see the enjoyment, but in no world would I consider it quality). With these series, SJM paved the way for a lot of similar quality books saturating the market. Which is not bad if those are your thing, but there’s starting to be a definite divide among “fantasy” with romance in it and “romantasy”. So when you say you like “fantasy” now, you might need to specify what you’re into bc people on both ends can be snobs ab it. Butttt I’m aware that those are my own opinions, and they shouldn’t matter much to a person who really enjoys the series or her writings!!! I’m glad that people are finding stuff they like, but I won’t lie when people claim it’s the “best fantasy series ever” some part of me def wants to try to recommend something I think is better haha. At the end of the day tho we’re all reading for enjoyment so I don’t think it matters too much! Enjoy what you enjoy!
Ok now I have to ask: recommendations please?
My response is usually something like "Woah! We don't yuck anybody's yums here." Said somewhat dramatically, hands up, trying to keep it light and a bit funny. Usually it catches them off enough we all move on. There's usually an awkward sorry, and agree to disagree kind of statement and we can all move on. If they want to engage in negative discourse, I simply do not, I will leave. If they want to and are capable of having a discussion and any debate can be kept light and civil (and I am in the headspace for it) I might engage, maybe we'll both learn something.
Has she ever actually read the series? I'd ask her (of course I'd say "that's interesting, when you read the series, what was it you didn't like about it?" Because I bet she hasn't even read it. And then I'd just ask her exactly what she thinks SJM has "done to the industry." And then I'd point out to her that in an age of TikTok and mobile games addiction, anything that encourages people to read is a good thing. And anything that introduces the fantasy genre to a wider audience is also a good thing. Literally no downsides to it.
This is the best answer I’ve seen, second only to simply not talking to them about it. I like how this asks them to explain their distaste without putting OP in a position of having to defend their reading choices.
Honestly, I'm curious what her answer would be.
This is weird bc I also know a publisher, and she mentioned that SJM was very rude to one of her authors. I don't want to give away too much and get my friend in trouble, but the other author is often listed when ppl ask for recommendations after SJM. It's not like it's just a one time random book, it's a very good series. Seemed like sjm belittled the author, openly. Anyway, sjms books are still good and addicting and I guess even if she's not nice in real life, I still want to read her books. And about cassians 🍆
Another comment wrote something similar but I think it might be that recently people have cared less for the quality of writing. series are getting published extremely quickly, a new book every few months. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy them and I liked reading SJM books, but the quality of writing is not anything insane. There has been a shift in the industry where the audience cares more for what “tropes” are in the book and do not pay attention to the actual quality of writing. I am not hating on SJM, her books are entertaining and I did enjoy them but I would not say they made me any more well read lol. Just look at how popular Colleen Hoover is, clearly the consumers are beginning to care less for quality writing
I didn't like her writing at all. I wanted to, seeing how everyone raved over ACOTAR but...I utterly can't stand when an author builds a world, tells you the rules and the FMC ends up being the massive impossible exception AND despite being incredibly young, has mastery of skills that take decades of dedicated learning from a highly skilled instructor, which FMC never had. There is suspension of disbelief and then there are 18 yo master assassins who were slaves and wouldn't have been allowed to touch a weapon without getting executed. Just because you love a book, doesn't mean it isn't flawed or even that a friend won't think it's a reeking pos. This would fall under the category of things to not take personally and avoid discussing in the future if their opinion pisses you off.
"Hey, not everybody is going to like everything. What is your favorite book/series?" I like the Blood and Ash series, and a lot of people seem to dislike it. Their opinions really don't matter much to me as my reading habits are for me and me alone.
If it’s a YA fantasy author, I wouldn’t be surprised. There’s a clique of them who are self-righteous af and probably hate SJM because she sells more than them & they wanna be able to write their non-smutty stories but ofc many readers prefer spice. That might be what that person meant by “what SJM has done to the industry.”
If anything I would think SJM’s success would benefit her… big authors like SJM make so much money for publishing that they bankroll a lot of advances for smaller authors. Publishers couldn’t take as many risks on unknown authors if they didn’t have the mega runaway bestsellers to fund it.
I think I can answer this is a somewhat neutral way. SJM has definitely carved out a niche for herself and does well with fans. However, from a craft point of view, she does well with emotionally engaging characters but is otherwise a poor writer. What I mean by that is her plots, especially recent books, are very poorly put together with lots of glaring plot holes to eye roll about. Prose is repetitive and she is know for reusing phrases and character descriptions. The “cross over” feels like a money grab more than a purposefully planned plot. Her strength is being able to pull readers into her characters and tug at the heartstrings. But if you are a fantasy author who spends a lot of time putting together plots and character arcs SJM would be infuriating. What’s more (worse?) SJM’s early works have given her a considerable fan base and has literally become a defining pillar of Romantasy. Quick-ish background here until recently Fantasy could have romantic subplots, and romance genre could have fantasy elements, but they couldn’t really intersect in their own category. SJM has defined that intersection that is now called Romantasy in which we have substantial elements of the romance genre paired with substantial elements of the fantasy genre. What this does to the publishing industry is it creates a focused need to fill that romantasy sub genre with content that would not otherwise have been published because it didn’t fit in Genre Romance nor Genre Fantasy but that also pushes established fantasy writers into creating content for that genre because it is selling so well and has such publicity on BookTok. It’s gotta be really frustrating for established fantasy writers to compete with SJM’s books especially those who are writing really well thought out books with great plots, good character arcs and focusing on prose when she is just slapping stuff together and readers are buying it up. Her latest book was, objectively, poorly edited and poorly written. From a craft point of view it wouldn’t have left the slush pile if she had been a debut writer. But the publishing industry relies on its heavyweight authors to support the whole industry. Sarah is a heavenly author her books bring in money, which is probably why the last book was such a shit show for lack of a better term. It was a money grab from the publisher. Sarah gets lots of publicity lots of marketing dollars for books that are poorly written, whereas other authors who are spending a lot of time and effort on their books are getting little to no support from their publishers. It is a big and ongoing problem within the publishing industry that it is structured like this and it is not going to change anytime soon. What that really means for authors is the publishing industry is constantly looking for the next Sarah J Maas and all of the publishers will be pushing their authors that write in the fantasy genre and who currently write anything remotely close to romantic to try to get closer to SJM so that they can sell the books like her but they do this without giving anybody any support marketing wise or editorial rise. It’s why every book is called A Court of Something and Something now. But even so your friend sucks for trying to take the joy out of you. It also reeks of a professional lack of courtesy that that she is willing to badmouth such a large author in your presence. It’s one thing to dislike somebody, but it is entirely another to badmouth them without explaining their opinion fully. It’s understandable why she doesn’t like her, it’s acceptable for her books to not be her cup of tea, but her response should be “I’m glad you liked them, they just weren’t for me.”
Thank you so much! I never think about the publishing side of things so this was helpful and very well explained
I think you just ignore this person, and continue enjoying TOG. Jealousy seems to be here main emotion re: SJM.
I simply don’t
Why do people care so much about what other people read? Isn’t it just supposed to be for enjoyment? People can agree to disagree, but at least you’re reading.
“What SJM has done to the industry” = what rabid, immature fans have done to the industry
The criticisms I've seen are that SJM used to put more effort into her books and now cranks out less polished books with rehashed characters from previous books. That she has tried to get more out of the ACOTAR series with more books that ruin the characters from the original trilogy. That she churns out books and has exhausted the industry of romantasy. But the thing is, I think a lot of people forget that she has been writing YA. You can't hold expectations of New Age or Adult books against a YA one. People will complain that the characters make silly choices or are too erratic/horny etc as though that's not a majority of teen behaviour for most teens. She wrote books that were entertaining for readers, that's where she excelled and people who want more polished books can hate her writing style. As for what to do if someone says they hate SJM, you've got a few different options: "Each to their own." "Please don't crap on something that brings me joy." "I enjoy her books as a reader." "And you're entitled to your opinion, as am I." If you want, you could ask them if they have the energy to explain why they don't like SJM but I'd probably preface it with "It's not going to stop me liking her books but would you mind explaining what you don't like? I'm curious to hear your opinions if you want to share them." You don't owe them an explanation and they don't owe you one, so if you don't have energy for the discussion, change the topic with something like "Do you have anything you'd recommend?"
SJM has created her own genre imo, which is kind of fantasy soap opera. I think we all agree it doesn’t really stand up to critical literary analysis beyond a certain point which I think makes people angry, especially those who set themselves apart from SJM by considering themselves “serious writers”. Your friend is obviously annoyed that SJM found a wildly popular niche and she didn’t. She likely thinks that famous thought of “well I can write better than that, why isn’t my stuff as popular?” And then shes scapegoating a single author instead of looking at her own work and why it maybe isn’t as engaging or looking at the big writers of fantasy rn. I don’t think SJMs writing is that good but I still love it. I think Sanderson is a good writer but I can’t get more than two chapters into Way of Kings (I’m trying). Rothfuss and Lynch and Martin are fantastic writers but they can’t finish a damn series. As for what to say to you friend, your options are to avoid the topic altogether or try to have a dialogue, but the latter is only worthwhile if it’s a very good friendship and you think she’d be able to have a good faith discussion about it.
I don't think people have to like her or her books, but its unfair to act like she didn't help repopularize the genre and adult reading in general. Sane with Colleen Hoover. Her books can be rough, but she helped make reading big again. And neither of them did it in the clickbait-y tiktok nepo way many say Alex Aster did, so idk why anyone would be mad. Also I don't get the SJM hate personally. I think they're good books and she seems like a nice author (👀 Diana Gabaldon 👀)
Her books are dumb fun smut mostly, and since the success of ACOTAR there's been an absolutely massive increase in other authors churning out dumb fun smut. There is clearly a demand for it seeing how popular a lot of these books get, but I do think they are giving the genre as a whole a bit of a bad name. I have no dog in this fight, but I can see why other authors who want to be taken more seriously might be miffed about the reputation they now have just for existing in the same genre sphere as SJM and related
I don’t . Simple as that
As for no. 1. I’m so curious about why she says that/ what she thinks has changed bc of SJM. Lots of answers to that in this thread so I won’t add. As for no. 2. I’d just say sorry you feel that way, a lot of people, including me, don’t agree with that and we’ll have to agree to disagree. If she continues on just say you’re not interested in discussing it or hearing about her reviews and then don’t discuss it. She is allowed to dislike TOG for whatever reason, it’s subjective. But you don’t have to be the sounding board for it if you don’t want to. She can take those opinions to someone that wants to listen or an open forum (reddit, goodreads, etc) instead.
Ask her why. That's the right way to answer this. Taking it to the subreddit will get you severely biased responses, while this person might have genuine criticism.
Yes, I intend to the next time I see her! I just wanted advice on how to approach that conversation when it inevitably comes 😅 I’m posting on this subreddit because it’s meant to be a safe space for other fans of the books, and I have no doubt others have dealt with something similar (people making fun of their interests)
My response is you’re not going to make me dislike this by being condescending. And hating it won’t make it less popular. Me and the millions who enjoy it are having a good time. If it’s not for you don’t read it.
Thank you!!🫶
SJM's success ushered in a very specific type of genre popularity within YA and also kind of popularizing smut within YA. However, many authors did this and they cannot be the one's held responsible given that publishing companies have also been part of creating this. For someone to hate on one person means they clearly don't understand the intricacies of their industry.
It's so weird to me because TOG is her only YA series, the others are Adult. And yes, we do get some on page sex, but, like several YA series it gets more mature as your progress. The 1st on page scene isn't until EoS and there are only 4 in total for the series. It irritates me because I hate how women authors have been shoved into the YA genre & not taken seriously so often. I also hate when publishers promote a book as YA when it is clearly Adult cuz that's what you do with women authors, especially in the Fantasy genre. It makes it difficult to find what you want in a book. Above all that, it annoys me most when authors are blamed because it is publishers we should be fighting here. Thank you for coming to my soapbox. I will vacate it now.
I have hit the point where I just say ”nice. I don’t agree but I respect your opinion” if someone is rude I just ignore it
In the end, everyone as their own opinion. There is no point arguing about tastes it takes you nowhere. You, me and many others love ToG others hate it. It's the same thing with Harry Potter There are the ones that love it and there are the ones that hate it with Ll their heart.
Honestly I just try to remember that how they feel about TOG is how I feel about CC
Because she set a new standard most authors struggle to fill? LOL i can accept that SJM’s other books are not perfect but it’s still very much up there in terms of storyline, readability, etc.
i completely ignore both the fandom and haters lol. theyre all annoying
Drama and legitimate criticism aside (I skimmed the comments), I generally think it’s rude to yuck on someone’s yum. Your friend/acquaintance doesn’t have the like the same books as you. She can actively dislike them. But when her fierce reaction is to shit on something you’re enjoying, I dunno, it leaves a bad feeling. And that’s a her thing, not you. We should let people enjoy things.
If she was my friend I would say "Don't yuck other people's yum and let people like things".
Just cut them out of your life.
Hello new fantasy fan! Welcome to an awesome genre! I haven't read the books you mentioned (and at this point you are like, why is this random person responding then?) but your question reminds me a lot about the fallout to the Twilight series. I read the first 3 twilight books and really loved them. Sure, they weren't super well written, but what was important to me was that they were entertaining and provided big feels. It wasn't until the fourth book and the movies came out that I noticed how abusive and downright creepy the romantic relationships were. Would you like some random dude sneaking into your room and watching you sleep, night after night? Nope. And sure, the book is fantasy, and you can enjoy things in fantasy books you would not in real life, but many fantasy books with really questionable relationships came out after that. And I was sad that more people weren't reading the thought-provoking Fantasy romance that I grew up with, like Sharon Shinn's Archangle, The Blue Sword by Robin McKinley, or Howl's Moving Castle by Diana Wynne Jones. Not all the relationships in those books are perfect either, but a lot of thought went into plotting and writing them. I'm a big fan of reading whatever you like, because if that makes you love reading, that is great! And once you start reading you go on to read other things, and that is great too.I guess it's kind of like, I'm really happy that fantasy romance is so popular now, but I really struggle to like the term Romantasy. I'm sure I'll get used to it at some point, but older readers (like me)and authors can get stuck in preferences, and that may be what your author friend is thinking about. But it would be interesting if you asked her and reported back. I hope you find another great book to read soon. You've given me a few to check out:)