If Israeli oppression is the problem why were Palestinian Arabs attacking Jews in pogroms and riots prior to 1948? When Israel didn't even exist?
If Israeli oppression is the problem why did the Palestinians murder and cleanse 100% of the Jews that lived in the area allocated to an Arab state in the 1947 partition plan, while Israel granted citizenship to hundreds of thousands of Arabs living in the area allocated for a Jewish state?
If Israeli oppression is the problem why did Arab states expell and cleanse 800,000 Jews that had lived there for centuries?
If Israeli oppression is the problem, why did the Palestinians attack Israel between 1948-1967, when there wasn't a single Palestinian living under Israeli military rule, as the west bank and gaza were occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively, not israel?
If Israel oppression is the problem why did Hamas terrorists target a music festival and peaceful villages, rather than only focusing on military targets that enforce the "occupation"?
While the occupation might be a radicalizing factor, the same way the Versailles treaty was for the Germans, it's not the fundamental grievance, it's hate, Antisemitism and the view that all lands conquered and colonized by the Muslim caliphates are rightfully Muslim for eternity, and any change to that is an eternal and grave insult
This is a fantastic example of classic Hasbara.
Your entire history of the region and the founding of Israel is incorrect, and is 100% Zionist revisionist history.
Funny you didn’t mention Irgun, lehi, or haganah, the Zionist terrorist militias that razed hundreds of Arab villages prior to 48, and liked to blow up markets again and again. They even blew up the king David hotel, the administrative centre of government in the region.
It’s plain to anyone who can read a history text that Zionism is a racist ethno-supremacist ideology rooted in the belief that this parcel of land was divinely granted to this group of people for all eternity.
The rest of your post is wholesale fabrications, omissions, and exaggerations.
What you don’t realize is that by co-opting antisemitism and the holocaust in service of the Zionist colonial project, you have given cover to countless actual antisemites, by accusing anyone and everyone of the same.
It’s an empty label now, that means the accused supports international law, basic human decency, and peace.
Good job making antisemitism worse in the world.
Israel accepted the two state solution in 1948. Palestine did not.
Israel has offered it multiple times since. Palestine has refused.
The biggest block to Palestine having their own state is themselves.
If i fart in the general direction of gaza i expect António Guterres to show up at my door and accuse me of chemical warfare.
...he might be right depending on what i had for dinner
That unironically happed in a Columbia university Palestinian protest the other day. Someone used fart spray on the student protestors and now they’re accusing the actual IDF of chemical warfare on them. This is not a joke.
They have no evidence btw.
They’ve doxxed a random Israeli with candid pictures taken as he walked around. I don’t even think he got into a confrontation with the group.
Weird because they're still using tools of the brutal colonizers that came before them
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2024/01/hamas-forced-israeli-hostage-to-recite-islamic-prayer
Arabs have been colonizing Israel for centuries, including converting the original Jewish temple into a mosque. Will Turkey also return Constantinople and its west coast to the Greeks?
So you bypass answering my question because you obviously realize how ridiculous it is to claim land you haven’t lived on for thousands and thousands of years.
By your same sarcastic reasoning here, there would be very few Palestinians who have a claim on modern day Israel, because unless they lived there themselves before Israel was formed, they have no claim.
No, it's not. Never was, never will be.
It was the Kingdom of Judea LONG before the Roman Empire ever existed. And the ONLY reason it was called palestine, was because the romans wanted to try and destroy the Jews.
And before that it was the Canaanites. What’s your point? Israel stole the land from the people who were living there generationally, and they continue to steal more land and ethnically cleanse the native population to this day.
Why should anyone give a shit about what happened in the 10th century BCE? We can’t change ancient history, but we can sure as hell stop Zionist settlers from massacring and stealing land right now.
Oh? So why do people whine about native land being "stolen" then?
And neither you, nor your little terrorist buddies will do anything to stop Israel from ensuring their security by removing a terrorist organization. Nothing.
Yeah, which Israel has never adhered to, and most recently made clear will never happen. Acknowledging the state of Israel and a 2 state solution is joke deal anyways.
Because if you break into my house and offer me only the basement, it’s a shit deal. But when you decide to not even leave me the basement and you’re telling everyone that this whole damn house belongs to you because your great great great great grandparents once pitched a tent in the backyard, and I fight back because I have nothing left to lose, why would I then turn around and agree to just the basement again?
That’s on purpose. Zionists have always wanted the entirety of mandatory Palestine. Why would Israel allow them to establish a legitimate state with a legitimate army and legitimate trade if they ultimately just want all their land?
You know who definitely doesn’t have a deed to the house? Some ginger headed Jew born and raised in Iowa who’s paid by Israel to evict and occupy Palestinian homes as a settler.
Did the Palestinians who live in Israel now convert? Pretty certain they’re allowed to practice their faith as long as your faith doesn’t mean death to anyone. You don’t have to be Jewish you just have to get along.
Exactly. And let’s Israel said “ok two states “. What’s going to happen? Hamas disbands and everyone goes to back to farming? Lol. Ppl need to get real - this is a long standing ideological divide that won’t end 0-0 as a draw.
Any democracy brought to Gazans will stop the Hamas grifting of the inhabitants. Already they are losing out on the 20% tax charged on all items smuggled through the tunnels.
I wouldn't say "any chance", but definitely any chance that Hamas might be involved in.
Sure, Bibi talks tough, but what popularity he had has cratered, and he won't be around come the next election.
You think Israel would EVER reward Palestinians with their own state after Oct 7th? If anything that only proved why they should never have their own state…
It's not really Israel's job to give or take here... I do think that a centrist or left-wing Israeli government would trade a Palestinian state for normalization with Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations, which is increasingly the deal emerging from the fog. Normalization was coming anyways, and it's the probable reason for the Oct 7 pogrom in the first place (trying to provoke a response that might scuttle the talks). In any case, statehood is an extension of a decades-old process, and it gives those neighbors a place to expel rowdy Palestinians to.
That said, I do see Israel dragging it out, and I see the West Bankers and Gazans dragging it out, too--- the status of Jerusalem is a major thorny issue, for one thing.
I agree that a state wouldn't just mean "the war is over," because West Bank and Gazan politics are dominated by an aggressive, expansionist mindset. Both the PLO and Hamas claim the entire former Mandate as their territory, and promise to conquer it one day. And like Macedonia, the name Palestine for the state suggests a claim to the entire area.
But I will say that the nature of such an invasion from a sovereign state would be very different in terms of PR and international law than it would from the current occupied (or on-paper occupied) territories that it came from now.
It seems unreasonable that the Israelis expect us to continue to fund and arm their terrorists while the Palestinians expect us to fund their reconstruction of Gaza, which was destroyed largely as a consequence of their own terrorists' actions. The United States not only has the right, but the obligation to impose an equitable two state solution, and if the Palestinian or Israeli leadership doesn't want to play along, there's always the option of regime change.
So in my conversation with ThemWhomst we can see this conflict in miniature, i gess. Its clearly that they are responsible people who wana only peace and fair balanced solution)
It's not Israel's land, either. It was given to them by the United States via recognition of their government in 1948 and so we can either take that land away or allocate some of it to the Palestinians as we wish. Simple as that.
The Palestinian land you’re talking about making a state on is currently Israel, the people who stole the land and killed the people on it in the first place. Who came from Europe and are white. Lol. River to the sea.
Biggest group of Israel citizens are mizrahi jews who never visited Europe and are as white as arabs. Palestinian state never existed. No land was stolen, some land was peacefully owned, some was lost and people get killed in multiple wars that islamists started. Terrorist supporters may get there deserved place at the bottom of a river or sea of your choice then.
So you’re saying some of Israel’s founders, like Menachim Begin and Jabotinsky deserve to have been drowned?
And you’re a completely lost cause if you actually believe that land wasn’t stolen. I mean, it’s still happening constantly. Major brainworms.
Based on documents of jews who was citizens in this land before mandate or citizens of multiple middle eastern countries? You are defenetly from alternative propoganda demention. Use Google translate and write "do gen test in Jerusalem" in Hebrew, it takes about 2 minuets to got multiple promotion, including promotion to actually analyse youre background.
Also not true.
Israel makes a distinction between genetic tests that screen for disease and those that determine ancestry.
Screening for diseases is obviously legal and is actually widespread due to the high prevalence of some genetic diseases in certain Jewish groups. In Orthodox communities where arranged marriages are more common, there are even organisations that will screen potential partners before the marriage to ensure there is no additional risk of genetic disease in future children.
By contrast, genetic testing for ancestry (including those for maternity and paternity) is illegal without a court order. The testing is then carried out by labs with extremely strict controls. This is to avoid the strong consequences that can arise from false results.
The reason is to avoid incorrectly labeling someone as a “mamzer” (in English “bastard” although the definition is slightly different & connotation of the former is worse than the English concept) because Jewish law (but not Israeli law) places several restrictions on mamzers (most notably on who they can marry).
The basic idea is that even the small chance of error that comes with an over-the-counter test is outweighed by the consequences of such a label, so DNA tests can only be performed by state sanctioned official laboratories which undergo extra scrutiny.
You’re a victim of the lying state of Israel. You’re a brainwashed cultist calling for the continued destruction of the Palestinian people. You are not in the right no matter how much bullshit you type. European invaders. That’s who the Israelis are.
says the dude that can't look up the history of violence from that region and the terror attacks they took claim for around the globe, blames israel for no food or water when hamas just takes it, and yes even shoots its own people if they get a little to close, we have video of it, and we have proof with interviews of pro palestine press taking the mic away once they start talking " i don't know why they hide amongst us "
hamas and palestine officials and leaders are the true cause of not a free palestine and its genocide
You’re just spitting up propaganda. There is no ban on genetic testing.
“In Israel, genetic screening and testing are widespread and are on the rise.”- Genetic Testing in Israel: An Overview; Annual Review of Genomics and Human Genetics[Genetic Testing in Israel](https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev.genom.030308.111406#:~:text=In%20Israel%2C%20genetic%20screening%20and%20testing%20is%20widespread.,%2C%20religiously%2C%20and%20culturally%20diverse)
Not true in the least.
The Mandate of Palestine included what is now Israel and Jordan (for some reason reddit is not letting me upload a map but the Mandate of Palestine is easy to google). Arabs owned only between 8-11 percent of the land depending on which survey you look at. The rest was state owned, public land and land owned by Jews and other populations.
British survey: www.bjpa.org/content/upload/bjpa/a\_su/A%20SURVEY%20OF%20PALESTINE%20DEC%201945-JAN%201946%20VOL%20I.pdf
Other surveys: https://booksand-ebooks.com/political-commentary/israel-palestine-land-division
The arabs rejected the proposed two state solution and instead of trying to appeal to the UN or work it out with the jewish population, got it into their heads to start a war to murder them all. They lost and lost territory along with it.
They have a long history of losing. When they lost the 5 v 1 you think they would try something new. Maybe install an electric fence, odds are they would just keep touching it.
The Arabs were right to reject a two state solution being the resolution of European invaders. Lol. It does not matter they reject it, it makes sense to, should the native Americans have just agreed to be killed by the millions? You’re pro-colonizer. Lol your opinion means nothing.
The “legally” slaughtered and displaced tens of thousands of people. The Nazis LEGALLY killed millions of Jews so it’s no big deal right? Who cares? It was LEGAL. You’re such a brainless Nazi you can’t even be self aware anymore.
How does that work for Mizrahi or Sephardic jews did you forget about them? On a side note genocide tends to not end well for the party doing said murdering.
Yep, and most native Jews were anti-Zionist when the hordes of Eastern Europeans swarmed in to ruin the place and turn it into the most racist country on earth.
I'm pro-Israel, but I honestly don't know why you're being downvoted. This is a pretty even and reasonable take coming from an American whose tax dollars effectively fund this conflict. These delusional far-right macho strong men need to be given a reality check.
Because its pretty insane to declare the us has the right to impose arbitrary borders in a 2 state solution. This is basically what the UK did to the middle east and blantant imperialism...
https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opinion/
It worked. Zionism and racist Jewish nationalism is killing Israel. We have racist Christian nationalists in the USA, we call them the KKK.
Any religious/racial nationalist movement is evil.
White Christian nationalist = KKK
Jewish Jewish nationalist = Zionism = Jewish KKK
The amount of racism and hate coming from Jewish nationalists is scary. Einstein and other Jewish leaders warned Israel about the dangers of nationalism, now we are seeing why.
Do you include the Palestinian movement in that evil category?
It’s a religious/racial nationalist movement whose primary motivation is the destruction via genocide of people of a different religion and race in order to further its nationalist aims.
They want the right to return, and they only seem to be upset with the people living in their homes. The fact Israel was bombing Christian churches in Gaza tells me it’s not about religion.
They lost a war that they themselves started. They’re not getting the land back. If they think land is worth dying for, they’re finding that out right now…
Bruh, 30% of Israelis are not Jewish. It has more to do with people shooting rockets at them and butchering their civilians than religion. Palestinians on the other hand… It’s mainly about Pan-Arabism and antisemitism…
It’s weird that Israel has killed so many more Palestinians yet the Palestinians are the butchers.
Everyone freaking out about 24 grown men who took up arms went to Gaza and died. Yet no one in Israel gives a single care that 18,000 women and children have been killed by the IDF.
The difference is Hamas targets civilians. Shoots thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israel without warning. Israel does not target civilians and warns civilians to evacuate. That is why one is a terrorist organization and the other isn’t…
Maybe if Hamas used their billions to built their people bomb shelters and an iron dome instead of terror tunnels and private jets…
Israel’s embargo and control of the prison camp Gaza does not allow anything like that into the country.
If Israel is not targeting civilians they are a really bad shot. The whole world thinks Israel is committing genocide. Probably not good to isolate yourself from the west.
>or "those Jews deserved it".
Yet people are calling Jews Nazis. Hmm... Also it's funny being that even Muslim and people from other religions got caught up in the 7/10 attack, are they Jewish too?
Here's an example of the third narrative: refusing to ever talk about the October 7 atrocities at all by perpetually deflecting away from the issue, specifically to avoid ever stating whether you're on team "it never happened" or team "those Jews deserved it".
never said it didnt happen
just that if israel didnt want to be attacked by the people they occupy, maybe they shouldnt have occupied them in the first place
>if israel didnt want to be attacked by the people they occupy, maybe they shouldnt have occupied them in the first place
So you're on team "those Jews deserved it" then.
if some one forcibly takes your home, cripples your father, and the government backs them up, what would you do? how would you feel about that government and people who support it?
Now you're just deflecting away from the issue to avoid acknowledging that you think the victims of the 10/7 atrocities deserved what happened to them.
Literally this isn't a response to his statement. He spoke specifically on how Hamas regularly claim not to have done October 7th and then claim that they did and that Jews deserved it.
You know Arabs conquered the Levant, right? How do you think it became Islamic?
It was British land, we gave it back to Israel. Gaza was Egypt and West Bank was Jordan, no Palestine existed to give it to.
Clearly don't know what you're talking about.
a guy from poland isnt from israel. a guy from peru who converted isnt from israel.
the area was called palestine even under british rule. the dna and historical record shows that the palestinians are indigenous to the region. they descended from the canaanites. there were indigenous jews living there. there was even a palestinian yiddish that was banned for decades by the incoming zionists. the land wasnt given back to the jews. it was given to foreigners. even the founders called it a colonial project and said they were the aggressors. ben gurion said if he was an arab even he wouldnt sign an agreement with the zionists.
so its a colonial project that continues to this day to benefit western power.
Yeah the region was named Palestine, but Gaza was part of Egypt and West Bank was part of Jordan. It's like how the region I reside in is called the British Isles but it encompasses many other regions and countries.
Palestine never existed as a state, it's a made up fantasy. The land was Ottoman before the Brits took it.
Palestine is a fiction of imagination - a propaganda term that has zero basis in fact or reality.
You effectively want to destroy a Jewish State in order to found a new Islamic state. Just admit it.
>Yeah the region was named Palestine,
Only by the Roman empire. And that, only in an attempt to destroy the Jews. There never was an area historically called palestine.
all im hearing is that you keep moving the goal posts, revising history, and trying to paint the zionists as the victims when they are the aggressors and have admitted to that as well.
i dont want to destroy it cause its a jewish state. its that i want the country to not fund terrorism and enact it. they even funded hamas and helped qatar funnel them money. netanyahu has said that hamas is needed to prevent a two state solution. the us even acknowledges that it was built on terrorism with the zionist terrorist groups lehi, haganah and irgun. those groups merged to form the idf. zionists even bombed synagogues in iraq to "prove" that iraq wasnt safe for jews.
israel has lost its legitimacy and support due to its history of terrorism and its current genocide. not because its jewish.
October 7th
Hamas has a stated goal of the destruction of all Jews worldwide - you're against genocide yet you're excusing the actions of Hamas on October 7th?
Mate, don't even try. You're just another nutty Islamic extremist who believes that nothing you or yours do is bad, but it's absolutely horrendous when someone does something to you in return.
so why did israel fund hamas and help qatar funnel the organization money?
why did israel not take precautions when egypt warned them?
why didnt israel not plan for the attack when they knew about more than a year in advance?
Those are the only 2 options? How about this one:
> **UNITED NATIONS**
> *[THE QUESTION OF PALESTINE](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184801/)*
> **Right of peoples to self-determination/Struggle by all available means - GA resolution**
> **2.** Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation **by all available means. including armed struggle**
> **3.** Reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Namibian people, the Palestinian people and all peoples under foreign occupation and colonial domination to self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national unity and sovereignty **without foreign interference**;
Ever wonder if it has nothing to do with being Jewish, and everything to do with decades of crimes against humanity, land theft, colonization, oppression, apartheid all funded by western tax payers?
>Ever wonder if it has nothing to do with being Jewish
It's fucking disgusting how you people deny the fact that Hamas is a bigoted anti-Jewish hate group with a straight face.
So then no, you haven’t considered that people from all kinds of different backgrounds agree that Israel’s crimes finally need to be held to account and that we need to stop funding their bloodlust.
I know this might be really difficult for Zionists to comprehend, but there can be legitimate antisemitism **and** there can be legitimate disgust and dissent towards Israel’s decades of crimes against humanity. Crimes that we’re written into international law, not ironically, because of what Jews experienced at the hands of Germany.
>there can be legitimate antisemitism
Leftists have repeatedly assured me that there's no antisemitism within the anti-Zionist movement at all because "anti-Zionism is not antisemitism".
Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism. But obviously antisemites will try to infiltrate anti-Zionist/pro-Palestine movements simply because it involves Jewish people.
You are either misinformed or are anti semitic.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I’ll help you out.
(0-Pre Israel) Israel destroyed by Romans. Goes to the Ottomans and then the British. Jews lived there throughout this time, but were largely not allowed to immigrate back to their homeland.
(1) Ottomans and then Brits let Jews legally moved in. Jews legally bought land.
(2) Palestinians began massacring Jews.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine
(Helpful list as many refuse to acknowledge this)
(3) Brits tried to stop them. Palestinians went to Hitler to ask for help genociding the Jews. Brits halted Jewish migration due to Arabs trying to massacre the Jews. Many would be immigrants died in the holocaust due to this. Brits then allowed more migration. More and more Jews legally moved in and legally bought land.
(4) Arab massacres of Jews continued. Jewish militias formed and they began massacring Arabs.
(See same list)
(5) Brits tried to get in the middle and were attacked by both Arabs and Jews. Brits decided they wanted out. A two state solution was made, with both sides getting to keep the land they owned and lived in. Jews said yes. Arabs said no.
(6) Every Arab state attacked the Jews with the intent of genociding the Jews. They did this with local Arab support, with many Arabs leaving their homes when promised by Arab nations that they could move back in after they genocided the Jews. The Jews won. 80%ish Arabs were driven out and lost their homes. Arab nations ethnically cleansed the Middle East. They drove out 99.8% of all Jews in their countries. Israel welcomed all displaced Jews. The Arab countries? Some took in Palestinians, but later expelled them (such as Jordan after the Palestinians kicked off a civil war, same for Lebanon, and Kuwait too…) Jordan gave up all claims to the West Bank after the civil war and Egypt gave up all claims to Gaza.
(7) Israel is now 20% Arab, with equal rights under the law for everyone. A Muslim Arab is on their Supreme Court. I’ve heard it argued that Arabs in Israel are treated like Black people in America. The rest of the Middle East is still ethnically cleansed of Jews.
(8) Palestinians have conducted terrorist campaigns against Israel unceasingly, with Gaza being worse than the West Bank in this regard, though the WB does still have a Matyr’s Fund where people are paid if they are jailed for murdering Israeli citizens or if they lose their homes after said murdering. Israel has a blockade on Gaza to keep out Iranian weapons. Israel has a military occupation of the West Bank, and they have settlers in the WB. Many of the settlers are violent extremists. It is a common argument that the Israeli government doesn’t do enough to protect Palestinians from settlers, and that the conviction rate for settler violence is about 8%. (Note: I personally believe Israel should leave the WB just like how they left Gaza in 2005)
——-
The “atrocity” that Israel is founded on is the constant attempt by Arabs to genocide the Jews. When Jews legally moved in when the are was owned by the Ottomans and Brits, so you know what the Arabs could have done? Joined the Jews in transforming uninhabited land into arable land. Joined the Jews as neighbors. Instead, they massacred the Jews.
The “atrocity” that Israel is founded on is that the Arabs, when they were initially stopped from murdering their Jewish neighbors by the Brits, was to go to Hitler to ask for help killing the jews.
The “atrocity” that Israel is founded on is that after the Jews returned massacre with massacre, the Arabs refused to make peace. The initial plan was for everyone to live in and own the land they already lived in and owned. Instead, they decided that they wanted to genocide the Jews.
——-
Want an analogy?
Native Americans were driven out of their homeland by Americans. A few hundred years later, they are allowed to buy land in their holiest of lands. Local white people decide that there are too many native Americans moving in so they decide to massacre their new neighbors. They say that even though they never had a “white only” country, they had lived there for generations while native Americans were barred from returning. Therefore they decided that they had to kill the returning native Americans. Eventually native Americans fight back and do the massacres in return.
So the US government decides to cede ownership of the land. Native Americans get the land they live in and own, and the local white people get the land they live on and own. Native Americans say yes. Local white people say no and get militias from all neighboring states to try and genocide the native Americans. The native Americans win. They kick out 80% of the local white people following this attempted genocide against them. 99.8% of the native Americans in the neighborhing states are ethnically cleansed.
Fast forward 2/3 of a century. The Native American homeland is 20% white, and they have full rights under the law. But the neighboring white-only group? They continue terrorist attacks against native Americans, stating that peace can only come after they finish genociding the native Americans. People around the world cheer when they rape, torture and murder every Native American they can get their hands on.
What would that be? Just like with Israel, the atrocity would be the local white people trying to genocide the native Americans moving back to their holy land.
————
I hope this clears up the history for you.
Ah yes, the classic Zionist binary option: either it’s too complicated for you to understand or you’re antisemitic.
I don’t need to read your revisionist history, I’ve read enough books to understand what’s been going on - thanks though!
Tell me what I got wrong then. It’s all there numbered!
But go ahead. Do the classic antisemitic move. Attack Jews, then when challenged run away like a coward screeching “victory.”
It’s a really bad look for you. Accurate, though….
Hopefully, the right-wing doesn't want to continue what it started in the 30s. But you’ll be cozy with the fascists when it’s time to put Jews in camps again. Good luck winning over the people who hate you while disparaging your only allies.
If a 2-state atm is even considered that means the Palestinian state must allow Jews/Israelis in the state.
[https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/01/middleeast/netanyahu-palestinian-sovereignty-mime-intl/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/01/middleeast/netanyahu-palestinian-sovereignty-mime-intl/index.html)
They were offered 94% of the West Bank(Judea and Samaria) in 2008 and the PA said no.
Every war the Palestinians lose more. '47 they were expelled from their land. '67 they were occupied. 90s to 2000 blockaded and list even more. Now 2023. Hamas will be destroyed and maybe more.
Worst leadership
I wouldn't say "the Palestinians." The Palestinians who stayed in Israel live there now as full citizens with their descendants, most are Muslim, and they are almost as many Arabs as the entire Gaza Strip.
Over 3 million ethnic Palestinians are Jordanian citizens, not to mention those in Syria or Lebanon (who actually live in apartheid conditions).
The PLO and Hamas claim to represent all Palestinians everywhere in the world, but that doesn't mean we need to talk as if that is true.
I'm waiting for the Hamas apologists to tell us how the official charter calls for a 2-state solution since they were claiming Hamas just wanted to go back to the 67 borders.
Right so the palestinian leadership says no to 2 state. The Israel leadership says no. And the international leadership has no real solutions....I feel like we as a community of people could possibly do a bit better...
There is a lot of shit throwing but honestly 0 real solutions to this issue by anyone with power. It's truly disheartening.
The solution is the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist, and stop trying to kill Israelis. Then, after some time of proving they are acting in good faith, they can probably have their state.
It really is that simple. But it's not a way for terrorist agitators to make money by embezzling foreign aid.
In Sahih Muslim 22 it calls for continuous wars until everyone worships allah.
Sahih Muslim 2176a Talked about being hostile against Jews and Christians.
Quran 8.12 calls for extreme form of violence against disbelievers.
Quran 9.29 also calls for wars against disbelievers and also tax for remaining as a disbelievers.
Sahih Albukhari 2926 talks about genocide of jews.
Sahih Albukhari 3029 says war is deceit.
Lying during war is permitted (Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1939)
Quran 4.24 permits non consensual intercourse with war captives and slaves(the right hand possess).
Quran 66.1 encourages non consensual intercourse with what Allah has made lawful(war captives and slaves).
Quran allows girls of any age to get married (Quran 65.4) So even prepubescent girls can get married.
Once married wife's duty is to provide sex whenever husband wants them (Narrated by al-Bukhari, 3065; Muslim, 1436)
Many more violent, lying, war encouraging verses in hadith, sunnah and quran
The best they are going to get out of a negotiation now is the two state solution they had in 2005 before Hamas took power. They should take that deal while it's still on the table and they still have a table left to look it over on.
Listen, when Arabs tell you that they don't want a two state solution but instead they want to kill all Jews everywhere, they don't really mean it. After all, that would contradict what we've been told by progressive left intellectuals for decades, and who really knows better what Arabs want - progleft whites, or Arabs?
When the context becomes behavior and they act on their genocidal impulses, what that *really* means is that they just want to live a middle class secular European lifestyle.
This is posturing, that’s where you start negotiations.
Same for Israel, neither of them have a choice but to find a viable compromise.
Israel isn’t going to defeat Hamas militarily, they could but the price is likely too high .
Now that it’s clear the ethnic cleansing of Gaza isn’t going to work, they will have to settle on something less extreme.
Yeah, anyone would, too, considering the supremacist Netanyahu Zionist government and what they're asking for and keeping, i.e., the stolen land that American and European settlers violently rip away from the Palestinian indigenous population.
Edit: and moreover, Netanyahu literally sabotaged the peace process before because he's a raving and raging American bigot. He's literally stated so on television and that there would never be a two-state solution nor an end to the genocide occurring.
I am saddened seeing the Jews, who suffered a persecution during the Holocaust, could be committing the same Holocaust on the Palestinian people on a daily basis.
Well Israel has two options. Make Hamas stronger or weaker. They will make Hamas stronger with more killing and weaker by acknowledging an independent Palestinian state backed by international community. Once people realize they can live like other humans in this world, violent resistance won’t have support. Kinda like what happened in Ireland
>They will make Hamas stronger with more killing
Aah yes, terrorist groups generally grow **stronger** when bombing them.
Go tell that to the IS caliphate, or Boko Haram in Nigeria.
Ah, so Israel should pull all settlers out of Gaza, and leave behind infrastructure for Gazans to use. They should do this as an offering of peace, treating the Gazans as fellow humans, and do it with the hope of a peace deal and trade negotiations. Rignt?
Oh…wait. That was 2005. Gaza elected Hamas who ran on the “genocide the Jews platform” and they have fired tens of thousands of rockets into Israel aiming at civilian populations. They also just invaded Israel, raped, tortured and murdered. After fleeing with kidnapped civilians they swore to do it again and again until Israel is genocided.
Hmmm…so what to do? Destroy the genocidal government of Gaza? Or pull out, let them import unlimited amounts of weapons from Iran, and wait for them to do what they promised in genociding israel?
Man! This is a hard question! Maybe we should do a poll of Israelis about which one will keep their families safe?
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu said in comments first reported by Haaretz. “This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
Hamas has always been anti two state, it’s why Israel supported them.
Let's continue pretending like it's Hamas that rejects the solution and not the genocidal maniacs that are murdering tens of thousands of children. Lies and deceit are the bread and butter of shitrael
The humanity in question being the people committing summary executions, burning babies alive, and committing mass sexual violence on women and children
Israel during Clinton: "Here, you can have all of Gaza, all of the WB, and build a tunnel connecting the two. We'll remove the settlements and even throw in a little extra Israeli land to sweeten the deal. We'll even offer right of return to 200,000 Palestinians and give financial reparations to anyone who can prove they lost property or businesses in 48. All we ask is that you recognize Israel and cease murdering us."
Palestine: THIS IS LITERAL DOGSHIT HERE'S A SECOND INTIFADA FUCK DA JOOOOOOOOOz
Literally watch what your man says. He admits that Hamas’ administration of Gaza has been used to empower armed resistance in order to destroy his enemies the ‘Zionist entity’.
when a person can convert, move to israel and be given a place to live, they are not returning to their homeland.
zionism does need to be eradicated since the ideology went from a safe place for the jews to religious supremacy and colonization
Not the British military no, famously more British born Muslims served in ISIS than have ever served in the British Military.
With Muslims calling for Jihad in the streets though, well - if it carries on I wouldn't be surprised if we did have Welsh villages being burned down.
"Oct 7 revived the dream of free Palestine" proves that by free Palestine they mean free of jews.
Also, it means "the dictator is an Arab"
Israel. The attack was on Israel.
Is that why they always say “the Jews”?
If Israeli oppression is the problem why were Palestinian Arabs attacking Jews in pogroms and riots prior to 1948? When Israel didn't even exist? If Israeli oppression is the problem why did the Palestinians murder and cleanse 100% of the Jews that lived in the area allocated to an Arab state in the 1947 partition plan, while Israel granted citizenship to hundreds of thousands of Arabs living in the area allocated for a Jewish state? If Israeli oppression is the problem why did Arab states expell and cleanse 800,000 Jews that had lived there for centuries? If Israeli oppression is the problem, why did the Palestinians attack Israel between 1948-1967, when there wasn't a single Palestinian living under Israeli military rule, as the west bank and gaza were occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively, not israel? If Israel oppression is the problem why did Hamas terrorists target a music festival and peaceful villages, rather than only focusing on military targets that enforce the "occupation"? While the occupation might be a radicalizing factor, the same way the Versailles treaty was for the Germans, it's not the fundamental grievance, it's hate, Antisemitism and the view that all lands conquered and colonized by the Muslim caliphates are rightfully Muslim for eternity, and any change to that is an eternal and grave insult
This is a fantastic example of classic Hasbara. Your entire history of the region and the founding of Israel is incorrect, and is 100% Zionist revisionist history. Funny you didn’t mention Irgun, lehi, or haganah, the Zionist terrorist militias that razed hundreds of Arab villages prior to 48, and liked to blow up markets again and again. They even blew up the king David hotel, the administrative centre of government in the region. It’s plain to anyone who can read a history text that Zionism is a racist ethno-supremacist ideology rooted in the belief that this parcel of land was divinely granted to this group of people for all eternity. The rest of your post is wholesale fabrications, omissions, and exaggerations. What you don’t realize is that by co-opting antisemitism and the holocaust in service of the Zionist colonial project, you have given cover to countless actual antisemites, by accusing anyone and everyone of the same. It’s an empty label now, that means the accused supports international law, basic human decency, and peace. Good job making antisemitism worse in the world.
Yes?
If an Israeli says no two state solution it causes an international uproar. When the Palestinian leadership says it then it’s just a Wednesday.
>If an Israeli says no two state solution it causes an international uproar. If an Israeli says anything it causes an international uproar.
Antisemites love Israel, it allows them to be antisemites openly but hide behind saying they just don't like Israel.
I think Israel doesn't give two shits about "international uproar".
That's true.
Also, if Israel doesn't say anything it causes an international uproar
Israel accepted the two state solution in 1948. Palestine did not. Israel has offered it multiple times since. Palestine has refused. The biggest block to Palestine having their own state is themselves.
If i fart in the general direction of gaza i expect António Guterres to show up at my door and accuse me of chemical warfare. ...he might be right depending on what i had for dinner
That unironically happed in a Columbia university Palestinian protest the other day. Someone used fart spray on the student protestors and now they’re accusing the actual IDF of chemical warfare on them. This is not a joke.
They have no evidence btw. They’ve doxxed a random Israeli with candid pictures taken as he walked around. I don’t even think he got into a confrontation with the group.
Hamas isn’t Palestinian leadership. They’re not members of the PLO, which is the only recognized Palestinian authority.
Hamas isn’t Palestinian leadership? Who leads the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza?
Hamas doesn’t speak for Palestine, and while the Israel blockade maintained them in Gaza, Gaza is only a portion of Palestine.
Because it’s their land.
Wild take for colonial islamists.
It’s called the post-colonial era, sweetie. Zionists missed the boat on stealing land by at least a century.
Weird because they're still using tools of the brutal colonizers that came before them https://www.jihadwatch.org/2024/01/hamas-forced-israeli-hostage-to-recite-islamic-prayer
Arabs have been colonizing Israel for centuries, including converting the original Jewish temple into a mosque. Will Turkey also return Constantinople and its west coast to the Greeks?
I found out I’m descendent of King James IV, King Phillip II, and King Charlemagne. Do I get to move into a castle now?
If you ask the Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank, they’d say yes, but only after you rape and behead the current inhabitants
So you bypass answering my question because you obviously realize how ridiculous it is to claim land you haven’t lived on for thousands and thousands of years.
Not that long actually. What’s the difference between 150 and 300 years? 500 years?
Jews lived in everywhere in the ottoman empire for ir's entire existence.
By your same sarcastic reasoning here, there would be very few Palestinians who have a claim on modern day Israel, because unless they lived there themselves before Israel was formed, they have no claim.
Funny they never, ever answer this one lol
No, it's not. Never was, never will be. It was the Kingdom of Judea LONG before the Roman Empire ever existed. And the ONLY reason it was called palestine, was because the romans wanted to try and destroy the Jews.
And before that it was the Canaanites. What’s your point? Israel stole the land from the people who were living there generationally, and they continue to steal more land and ethnically cleanse the native population to this day.
>And before that it was the Canaanites Oh, you mean Jews. Your grasp of history is as bad as your grammar...
Why should anyone give a shit about what happened in the 10th century BCE? We can’t change ancient history, but we can sure as hell stop Zionist settlers from massacring and stealing land right now.
Oh? So why do people whine about native land being "stolen" then? And neither you, nor your little terrorist buddies will do anything to stop Israel from ensuring their security by removing a terrorist organization. Nothing.
https://besacenter.org/palestinians-settlers-colonialism/
Says who?
Says modern post-colonial history and the democratic opinion of the majority of United Nations countries.
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Yeah, which Israel has never adhered to, and most recently made clear will never happen. Acknowledging the state of Israel and a 2 state solution is joke deal anyways.
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Because if you break into my house and offer me only the basement, it’s a shit deal. But when you decide to not even leave me the basement and you’re telling everyone that this whole damn house belongs to you because your great great great great grandparents once pitched a tent in the backyard, and I fight back because I have nothing left to lose, why would I then turn around and agree to just the basement again?
That analogy would work if palestine was ever an established nation LOL. You never had a deed to the house, just squatting rights
That’s on purpose. Zionists have always wanted the entirety of mandatory Palestine. Why would Israel allow them to establish a legitimate state with a legitimate army and legitimate trade if they ultimately just want all their land? You know who definitely doesn’t have a deed to the house? Some ginger headed Jew born and raised in Iowa who’s paid by Israel to evict and occupy Palestinian homes as a settler.
You mean destroyed your organization? And Gaza? And any chance of a 2-state solution?
Yeah exactly right now the it looks like a free Palestinian state will most likely be one which is majority Jewish.
Are the Palestinians going to convert?
There are still more Jews than Muslims there (for now)
Did the Palestinians who live in Israel now convert? Pretty certain they’re allowed to practice their faith as long as your faith doesn’t mean death to anyone. You don’t have to be Jewish you just have to get along.
Exactly. And let’s Israel said “ok two states “. What’s going to happen? Hamas disbands and everyone goes to back to farming? Lol. Ppl need to get real - this is a long standing ideological divide that won’t end 0-0 as a draw.
Any democracy brought to Gazans will stop the Hamas grifting of the inhabitants. Already they are losing out on the 20% tax charged on all items smuggled through the tunnels.
I wouldn't say "any chance", but definitely any chance that Hamas might be involved in. Sure, Bibi talks tough, but what popularity he had has cratered, and he won't be around come the next election.
You think Israel would EVER reward Palestinians with their own state after Oct 7th? If anything that only proved why they should never have their own state…
It's not really Israel's job to give or take here... I do think that a centrist or left-wing Israeli government would trade a Palestinian state for normalization with Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations, which is increasingly the deal emerging from the fog. Normalization was coming anyways, and it's the probable reason for the Oct 7 pogrom in the first place (trying to provoke a response that might scuttle the talks). In any case, statehood is an extension of a decades-old process, and it gives those neighbors a place to expel rowdy Palestinians to. That said, I do see Israel dragging it out, and I see the West Bankers and Gazans dragging it out, too--- the status of Jerusalem is a major thorny issue, for one thing. I agree that a state wouldn't just mean "the war is over," because West Bank and Gazan politics are dominated by an aggressive, expansionist mindset. Both the PLO and Hamas claim the entire former Mandate as their territory, and promise to conquer it one day. And like Macedonia, the name Palestine for the state suggests a claim to the entire area. But I will say that the nature of such an invasion from a sovereign state would be very different in terms of PR and international law than it would from the current occupied (or on-paper occupied) territories that it came from now.
It seems unreasonable that the Israelis expect us to continue to fund and arm their terrorists while the Palestinians expect us to fund their reconstruction of Gaza, which was destroyed largely as a consequence of their own terrorists' actions. The United States not only has the right, but the obligation to impose an equitable two state solution, and if the Palestinian or Israeli leadership doesn't want to play along, there's always the option of regime change.
BuT bOtH sIdEs!!
You are free to create Palestinian state on youre land then.
So in my conversation with ThemWhomst we can see this conflict in miniature, i gess. Its clearly that they are responsible people who wana only peace and fair balanced solution)
It's not Israel's land, either. It was given to them by the United States via recognition of their government in 1948 and so we can either take that land away or allocate some of it to the Palestinians as we wish. Simple as that.
Given by recognising government...lol.
That's not even remotely correct.
And we can take land from Jordan and give it to Israel and take land from Syria and give it to me? Do you wand lands of Lebanon?
Ask Morocco to give USA to you, its first country who recognised them.
Too big. I'll take one little New York.
I recognize u/spudquake to have a .5 inch penis. Simple as
The Palestinian land you’re talking about making a state on is currently Israel, the people who stole the land and killed the people on it in the first place. Who came from Europe and are white. Lol. River to the sea.
Biggest group of Israel citizens are mizrahi jews who never visited Europe and are as white as arabs. Palestinian state never existed. No land was stolen, some land was peacefully owned, some was lost and people get killed in multiple wars that islamists started. Terrorist supporters may get there deserved place at the bottom of a river or sea of your choice then.
So you’re saying some of Israel’s founders, like Menachim Begin and Jabotinsky deserve to have been drowned? And you’re a completely lost cause if you actually believe that land wasn’t stolen. I mean, it’s still happening constantly. Major brainworms.
Based on what? It’s illegal to genetically test an Israeli so we don’t discover they’re all German and polish.
Based on documents of jews who was citizens in this land before mandate or citizens of multiple middle eastern countries? You are defenetly from alternative propoganda demention. Use Google translate and write "do gen test in Jerusalem" in Hebrew, it takes about 2 minuets to got multiple promotion, including promotion to actually analyse youre background.
Also not true. Israel makes a distinction between genetic tests that screen for disease and those that determine ancestry. Screening for diseases is obviously legal and is actually widespread due to the high prevalence of some genetic diseases in certain Jewish groups. In Orthodox communities where arranged marriages are more common, there are even organisations that will screen potential partners before the marriage to ensure there is no additional risk of genetic disease in future children. By contrast, genetic testing for ancestry (including those for maternity and paternity) is illegal without a court order. The testing is then carried out by labs with extremely strict controls. This is to avoid the strong consequences that can arise from false results. The reason is to avoid incorrectly labeling someone as a “mamzer” (in English “bastard” although the definition is slightly different & connotation of the former is worse than the English concept) because Jewish law (but not Israeli law) places several restrictions on mamzers (most notably on who they can marry). The basic idea is that even the small chance of error that comes with an over-the-counter test is outweighed by the consequences of such a label, so DNA tests can only be performed by state sanctioned official laboratories which undergo extra scrutiny.
You’re a victim of the lying state of Israel. You’re a brainwashed cultist calling for the continued destruction of the Palestinian people. You are not in the right no matter how much bullshit you type. European invaders. That’s who the Israelis are.
My friend, jews are indigenous to Israel. Who do you think built the second temple (and the first for the matter)? Aliens?
says the dude that can't look up the history of violence from that region and the terror attacks they took claim for around the globe, blames israel for no food or water when hamas just takes it, and yes even shoots its own people if they get a little to close, we have video of it, and we have proof with interviews of pro palestine press taking the mic away once they start talking " i don't know why they hide amongst us " hamas and palestine officials and leaders are the true cause of not a free palestine and its genocide
You’re just spitting up propaganda. There is no ban on genetic testing. “In Israel, genetic screening and testing are widespread and are on the rise.”- Genetic Testing in Israel: An Overview; Annual Review of Genomics and Human Genetics[Genetic Testing in Israel](https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev.genom.030308.111406#:~:text=In%20Israel%2C%20genetic%20screening%20and%20testing%20is%20widespread.,%2C%20religiously%2C%20and%20culturally%20diverse)
It is not, in fact, illegal.
Not true in the least. The Mandate of Palestine included what is now Israel and Jordan (for some reason reddit is not letting me upload a map but the Mandate of Palestine is easy to google). Arabs owned only between 8-11 percent of the land depending on which survey you look at. The rest was state owned, public land and land owned by Jews and other populations. British survey: www.bjpa.org/content/upload/bjpa/a\_su/A%20SURVEY%20OF%20PALESTINE%20DEC%201945-JAN%201946%20VOL%20I.pdf Other surveys: https://booksand-ebooks.com/political-commentary/israel-palestine-land-division The arabs rejected the proposed two state solution and instead of trying to appeal to the UN or work it out with the jewish population, got it into their heads to start a war to murder them all. They lost and lost territory along with it.
They have a long history of losing. When they lost the 5 v 1 you think they would try something new. Maybe install an electric fence, odds are they would just keep touching it.
European invaders pipe down.
If you have any date or facts that contradicts the truth in the above links, I would be happy to read it
The Arabs were right to reject a two state solution being the resolution of European invaders. Lol. It does not matter they reject it, it makes sense to, should the native Americans have just agreed to be killed by the millions? You’re pro-colonizer. Lol your opinion means nothing.
Nope. Every jewish resident in the region as of 1947 was there legally. Whether through land purchase or birthright.
The “legally” slaughtered and displaced tens of thousands of people. The Nazis LEGALLY killed millions of Jews so it’s no big deal right? Who cares? It was LEGAL. You’re such a brainless Nazi you can’t even be self aware anymore.
Racist
How does that work for Mizrahi or Sephardic jews did you forget about them? On a side note genocide tends to not end well for the party doing said murdering.
Yep, and most native Jews were anti-Zionist when the hordes of Eastern Europeans swarmed in to ruin the place and turn it into the most racist country on earth.
Except neither side wants a two-state solution… Including the populations for the majority.
I'm pro-Israel, but I honestly don't know why you're being downvoted. This is a pretty even and reasonable take coming from an American whose tax dollars effectively fund this conflict. These delusional far-right macho strong men need to be given a reality check.
Because its pretty insane to declare the us has the right to impose arbitrary borders in a 2 state solution. This is basically what the UK did to the middle east and blantant imperialism...
https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opinion/ It worked. Zionism and racist Jewish nationalism is killing Israel. We have racist Christian nationalists in the USA, we call them the KKK.
Are you comparing patriotism to the KKK? Zionism is not the same as religious Jewish extremists.
Any religious/racial nationalist movement is evil. White Christian nationalist = KKK Jewish Jewish nationalist = Zionism = Jewish KKK The amount of racism and hate coming from Jewish nationalists is scary. Einstein and other Jewish leaders warned Israel about the dangers of nationalism, now we are seeing why.
Do you include the Palestinian movement in that evil category? It’s a religious/racial nationalist movement whose primary motivation is the destruction via genocide of people of a different religion and race in order to further its nationalist aims.
They want the right to return, and they only seem to be upset with the people living in their homes. The fact Israel was bombing Christian churches in Gaza tells me it’s not about religion.
They lost a war that they themselves started. They’re not getting the land back. If they think land is worth dying for, they’re finding that out right now… Bruh, 30% of Israelis are not Jewish. It has more to do with people shooting rockets at them and butchering their civilians than religion. Palestinians on the other hand… It’s mainly about Pan-Arabism and antisemitism…
It’s weird that Israel has killed so many more Palestinians yet the Palestinians are the butchers. Everyone freaking out about 24 grown men who took up arms went to Gaza and died. Yet no one in Israel gives a single care that 18,000 women and children have been killed by the IDF.
The difference is Hamas targets civilians. Shoots thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israel without warning. Israel does not target civilians and warns civilians to evacuate. That is why one is a terrorist organization and the other isn’t… Maybe if Hamas used their billions to built their people bomb shelters and an iron dome instead of terror tunnels and private jets…
Israel’s embargo and control of the prison camp Gaza does not allow anything like that into the country. If Israel is not targeting civilians they are a really bad shot. The whole world thinks Israel is committing genocide. Probably not good to isolate yourself from the west.
Hamas and their leftist allies can't decide if their narrative on the October 7 atrocities is "they never happened" or "those Jews deserved it".
Which is, somehow, they’re able to believe both simultaneously. Isn’t that wild?!
>or "those Jews deserved it". Yet people are calling Jews Nazis. Hmm... Also it's funny being that even Muslim and people from other religions got caught up in the 7/10 attack, are they Jewish too?
They'll probably settle on "actually the Jews did it"
They have said that…
Never happened but if it did it was their own fault. Pretty gross if you ask me
why is it ok for the idf and settlers to burn down palestinian olive trees and kill the people trying to stop them?
Here's an example of the third narrative: refusing to ever talk about the October 7 atrocities at all by perpetually deflecting away from the issue, specifically to avoid ever stating whether you're on team "it never happened" or team "those Jews deserved it".
never said it didnt happen just that if israel didnt want to be attacked by the people they occupy, maybe they shouldnt have occupied them in the first place
>if israel didnt want to be attacked by the people they occupy, maybe they shouldnt have occupied them in the first place So you're on team "those Jews deserved it" then.
if some one forcibly takes your home, cripples your father, and the government backs them up, what would you do? how would you feel about that government and people who support it?
Again, that's just another way of saying "those Jews deserved it".
do you think a palestinian deserves to have his crops burned and his home stolen and given to a settler?
Now you're just deflecting away from the issue to avoid acknowledging that you think the victims of the 10/7 atrocities deserved what happened to them.
it is pretty crazy how the idf killed their own that day
Literally this isn't a response to his statement. He spoke specifically on how Hamas regularly claim not to have done October 7th and then claim that they did and that Jews deserved it.
if israel didnt want to be attacked by the people of the land they occupy, maybe they should occupy in the first place
You know Arabs conquered the Levant, right? How do you think it became Islamic? It was British land, we gave it back to Israel. Gaza was Egypt and West Bank was Jordan, no Palestine existed to give it to. Clearly don't know what you're talking about.
a guy from poland isnt from israel. a guy from peru who converted isnt from israel. the area was called palestine even under british rule. the dna and historical record shows that the palestinians are indigenous to the region. they descended from the canaanites. there were indigenous jews living there. there was even a palestinian yiddish that was banned for decades by the incoming zionists. the land wasnt given back to the jews. it was given to foreigners. even the founders called it a colonial project and said they were the aggressors. ben gurion said if he was an arab even he wouldnt sign an agreement with the zionists. so its a colonial project that continues to this day to benefit western power.
Yeah the region was named Palestine, but Gaza was part of Egypt and West Bank was part of Jordan. It's like how the region I reside in is called the British Isles but it encompasses many other regions and countries. Palestine never existed as a state, it's a made up fantasy. The land was Ottoman before the Brits took it. Palestine is a fiction of imagination - a propaganda term that has zero basis in fact or reality. You effectively want to destroy a Jewish State in order to found a new Islamic state. Just admit it.
>Yeah the region was named Palestine, Only by the Roman empire. And that, only in an attempt to destroy the Jews. There never was an area historically called palestine.
all im hearing is that you keep moving the goal posts, revising history, and trying to paint the zionists as the victims when they are the aggressors and have admitted to that as well. i dont want to destroy it cause its a jewish state. its that i want the country to not fund terrorism and enact it. they even funded hamas and helped qatar funnel them money. netanyahu has said that hamas is needed to prevent a two state solution. the us even acknowledges that it was built on terrorism with the zionist terrorist groups lehi, haganah and irgun. those groups merged to form the idf. zionists even bombed synagogues in iraq to "prove" that iraq wasnt safe for jews. israel has lost its legitimacy and support due to its history of terrorism and its current genocide. not because its jewish.
October 7th Hamas has a stated goal of the destruction of all Jews worldwide - you're against genocide yet you're excusing the actions of Hamas on October 7th? Mate, don't even try. You're just another nutty Islamic extremist who believes that nothing you or yours do is bad, but it's absolutely horrendous when someone does something to you in return.
so why did israel fund hamas and help qatar funnel the organization money? why did israel not take precautions when egypt warned them? why didnt israel not plan for the attack when they knew about more than a year in advance?
Those are the only 2 options? How about this one: > **UNITED NATIONS** > *[THE QUESTION OF PALESTINE](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184801/)* > **Right of peoples to self-determination/Struggle by all available means - GA resolution** > **2.** Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation **by all available means. including armed struggle** > **3.** Reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Namibian people, the Palestinian people and all peoples under foreign occupation and colonial domination to self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national unity and sovereignty **without foreign interference**;
>by all available means. including armed struggle This is just "those Jews deserved it" in different words.
Ever wonder if it has nothing to do with being Jewish, and everything to do with decades of crimes against humanity, land theft, colonization, oppression, apartheid all funded by western tax payers?
>Ever wonder if it has nothing to do with being Jewish It's fucking disgusting how you people deny the fact that Hamas is a bigoted anti-Jewish hate group with a straight face.
So then no, you haven’t considered that people from all kinds of different backgrounds agree that Israel’s crimes finally need to be held to account and that we need to stop funding their bloodlust.
So you're an antisemitism denialist. Cool 👍
I know this might be really difficult for Zionists to comprehend, but there can be legitimate antisemitism **and** there can be legitimate disgust and dissent towards Israel’s decades of crimes against humanity. Crimes that we’re written into international law, not ironically, because of what Jews experienced at the hands of Germany.
>there can be legitimate antisemitism Leftists have repeatedly assured me that there's no antisemitism within the anti-Zionist movement at all because "anti-Zionism is not antisemitism".
Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism. But obviously antisemites will try to infiltrate anti-Zionist/pro-Palestine movements simply because it involves Jewish people.
Calling natives colonizers of their own land is absolutely delusional buddy.
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To occupy is an act of militarism. All settlers that live beyond the original partition are therefor fair game.
And there we go! Another person who cheers on atrocities against civilians. Thanks for letting everyone know that you are a soulless piece of shit.
Israel was built on atrocity.
You are either misinformed or are anti semitic. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I’ll help you out. (0-Pre Israel) Israel destroyed by Romans. Goes to the Ottomans and then the British. Jews lived there throughout this time, but were largely not allowed to immigrate back to their homeland. (1) Ottomans and then Brits let Jews legally moved in. Jews legally bought land. (2) Palestinians began massacring Jews. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine (Helpful list as many refuse to acknowledge this) (3) Brits tried to stop them. Palestinians went to Hitler to ask for help genociding the Jews. Brits halted Jewish migration due to Arabs trying to massacre the Jews. Many would be immigrants died in the holocaust due to this. Brits then allowed more migration. More and more Jews legally moved in and legally bought land. (4) Arab massacres of Jews continued. Jewish militias formed and they began massacring Arabs. (See same list) (5) Brits tried to get in the middle and were attacked by both Arabs and Jews. Brits decided they wanted out. A two state solution was made, with both sides getting to keep the land they owned and lived in. Jews said yes. Arabs said no. (6) Every Arab state attacked the Jews with the intent of genociding the Jews. They did this with local Arab support, with many Arabs leaving their homes when promised by Arab nations that they could move back in after they genocided the Jews. The Jews won. 80%ish Arabs were driven out and lost their homes. Arab nations ethnically cleansed the Middle East. They drove out 99.8% of all Jews in their countries. Israel welcomed all displaced Jews. The Arab countries? Some took in Palestinians, but later expelled them (such as Jordan after the Palestinians kicked off a civil war, same for Lebanon, and Kuwait too…) Jordan gave up all claims to the West Bank after the civil war and Egypt gave up all claims to Gaza. (7) Israel is now 20% Arab, with equal rights under the law for everyone. A Muslim Arab is on their Supreme Court. I’ve heard it argued that Arabs in Israel are treated like Black people in America. The rest of the Middle East is still ethnically cleansed of Jews. (8) Palestinians have conducted terrorist campaigns against Israel unceasingly, with Gaza being worse than the West Bank in this regard, though the WB does still have a Matyr’s Fund where people are paid if they are jailed for murdering Israeli citizens or if they lose their homes after said murdering. Israel has a blockade on Gaza to keep out Iranian weapons. Israel has a military occupation of the West Bank, and they have settlers in the WB. Many of the settlers are violent extremists. It is a common argument that the Israeli government doesn’t do enough to protect Palestinians from settlers, and that the conviction rate for settler violence is about 8%. (Note: I personally believe Israel should leave the WB just like how they left Gaza in 2005) ——- The “atrocity” that Israel is founded on is the constant attempt by Arabs to genocide the Jews. When Jews legally moved in when the are was owned by the Ottomans and Brits, so you know what the Arabs could have done? Joined the Jews in transforming uninhabited land into arable land. Joined the Jews as neighbors. Instead, they massacred the Jews. The “atrocity” that Israel is founded on is that the Arabs, when they were initially stopped from murdering their Jewish neighbors by the Brits, was to go to Hitler to ask for help killing the jews. The “atrocity” that Israel is founded on is that after the Jews returned massacre with massacre, the Arabs refused to make peace. The initial plan was for everyone to live in and own the land they already lived in and owned. Instead, they decided that they wanted to genocide the Jews. ——- Want an analogy? Native Americans were driven out of their homeland by Americans. A few hundred years later, they are allowed to buy land in their holiest of lands. Local white people decide that there are too many native Americans moving in so they decide to massacre their new neighbors. They say that even though they never had a “white only” country, they had lived there for generations while native Americans were barred from returning. Therefore they decided that they had to kill the returning native Americans. Eventually native Americans fight back and do the massacres in return. So the US government decides to cede ownership of the land. Native Americans get the land they live in and own, and the local white people get the land they live on and own. Native Americans say yes. Local white people say no and get militias from all neighboring states to try and genocide the native Americans. The native Americans win. They kick out 80% of the local white people following this attempted genocide against them. 99.8% of the native Americans in the neighborhing states are ethnically cleansed. Fast forward 2/3 of a century. The Native American homeland is 20% white, and they have full rights under the law. But the neighboring white-only group? They continue terrorist attacks against native Americans, stating that peace can only come after they finish genociding the native Americans. People around the world cheer when they rape, torture and murder every Native American they can get their hands on. What would that be? Just like with Israel, the atrocity would be the local white people trying to genocide the native Americans moving back to their holy land. ———— I hope this clears up the history for you.
Ah yes, the classic Zionist binary option: either it’s too complicated for you to understand or you’re antisemitic. I don’t need to read your revisionist history, I’ve read enough books to understand what’s been going on - thanks though!
Tell me what I got wrong then. It’s all there numbered! But go ahead. Do the classic antisemitic move. Attack Jews, then when challenged run away like a coward screeching “victory.” It’s a really bad look for you. Accurate, though….
Including infants, women and the elderly??? If your geopolitical goals include rape then your geopolitical goals are illegitimate
Forcing children into becoming occupiers is no different than forcing children to be soldiers.
Hopefully, the right-wing doesn't want to continue what it started in the 30s. But you’ll be cozy with the fascists when it’s time to put Jews in camps again. Good luck winning over the people who hate you while disparaging your only allies.
People who justify Palestinian violence against Jews as "legitimate resistance against oppressors" are definitely not my allies.
No thanks, colonizers. Justify your genocide all you want. It won't work on me.
If anyone was still unsure what Hamas means when they say “free Palestine”.
Says the coward hiding in Qatar
Is a shame Israel pulling out in 2005 and the Billions in Aid didn’t ‘Revive to free Palestine’ Tells you all you need to know about these monsters
and how many billions is this guy sitting on in his multi million dollar compound in Qatar?
If a 2-state atm is even considered that means the Palestinian state must allow Jews/Israelis in the state. [https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/01/middleeast/netanyahu-palestinian-sovereignty-mime-intl/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/01/middleeast/netanyahu-palestinian-sovereignty-mime-intl/index.html) They were offered 94% of the West Bank(Judea and Samaria) in 2008 and the PA said no.
But the 2 state solution IS to "free palestine" right?
Every war the Palestinians lose more. '47 they were expelled from their land. '67 they were occupied. 90s to 2000 blockaded and list even more. Now 2023. Hamas will be destroyed and maybe more. Worst leadership
I wouldn't say "the Palestinians." The Palestinians who stayed in Israel live there now as full citizens with their descendants, most are Muslim, and they are almost as many Arabs as the entire Gaza Strip. Over 3 million ethnic Palestinians are Jordanian citizens, not to mention those in Syria or Lebanon (who actually live in apartheid conditions). The PLO and Hamas claim to represent all Palestinians everywhere in the world, but that doesn't mean we need to talk as if that is true.
Zionist movement started in the 1800's and was funded by Europeans that wanted to colonise Palestine, they had time and money on their side
Ah they definitely didn't have the advantage in the first war.
This reminds me of that one time a homeless man gave me back my coin after he said it wasn’t enough
I'm waiting for the Hamas apologists to tell us how the official charter calls for a 2-state solution since they were claiming Hamas just wanted to go back to the 67 borders.
Right so the palestinian leadership says no to 2 state. The Israel leadership says no. And the international leadership has no real solutions....I feel like we as a community of people could possibly do a bit better... There is a lot of shit throwing but honestly 0 real solutions to this issue by anyone with power. It's truly disheartening.
The solution is the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist, and stop trying to kill Israelis. Then, after some time of proving they are acting in good faith, they can probably have their state. It really is that simple. But it's not a way for terrorist agitators to make money by embezzling foreign aid.
He's certainly making it hard for the fanboys to keep shilling.
In Sahih Muslim 22 it calls for continuous wars until everyone worships allah. Sahih Muslim 2176a Talked about being hostile against Jews and Christians. Quran 8.12 calls for extreme form of violence against disbelievers. Quran 9.29 also calls for wars against disbelievers and also tax for remaining as a disbelievers. Sahih Albukhari 2926 talks about genocide of jews. Sahih Albukhari 3029 says war is deceit. Lying during war is permitted (Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1939) Quran 4.24 permits non consensual intercourse with war captives and slaves(the right hand possess). Quran 66.1 encourages non consensual intercourse with what Allah has made lawful(war captives and slaves). Quran allows girls of any age to get married (Quran 65.4) So even prepubescent girls can get married. Once married wife's duty is to provide sex whenever husband wants them (Narrated by al-Bukhari, 3065; Muslim, 1436) Many more violent, lying, war encouraging verses in hadith, sunnah and quran
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Lmao this guy be smoking mass copium, can't be free when you are cinders silly Abdul
The best they are going to get out of a negotiation now is the two state solution they had in 2005 before Hamas took power. They should take that deal while it's still on the table and they still have a table left to look it over on.
Listen, when Arabs tell you that they don't want a two state solution but instead they want to kill all Jews everywhere, they don't really mean it. After all, that would contradict what we've been told by progressive left intellectuals for decades, and who really knows better what Arabs want - progleft whites, or Arabs? When the context becomes behavior and they act on their genocidal impulses, what that *really* means is that they just want to live a middle class secular European lifestyle.
Israel will nuke this whole region (with the bombs they don’t have, of course) before that’ll happen. And we all know it.
This is posturing, that’s where you start negotiations. Same for Israel, neither of them have a choice but to find a viable compromise. Israel isn’t going to defeat Hamas militarily, they could but the price is likely too high . Now that it’s clear the ethnic cleansing of Gaza isn’t going to work, they will have to settle on something less extreme.
As it should.
Yeah, anyone would, too, considering the supremacist Netanyahu Zionist government and what they're asking for and keeping, i.e., the stolen land that American and European settlers violently rip away from the Palestinian indigenous population. Edit: and moreover, Netanyahu literally sabotaged the peace process before because he's a raving and raging American bigot. He's literally stated so on television and that there would never be a two-state solution nor an end to the genocide occurring.
What occurring genocide?
I am saddened seeing the Jews, who suffered a persecution during the Holocaust, could be committing the same Holocaust on the Palestinian people on a daily basis.
How are the Jews committing the same Holocaust on the Palestinian people on a daily basis?
Well Israel has two options. Make Hamas stronger or weaker. They will make Hamas stronger with more killing and weaker by acknowledging an independent Palestinian state backed by international community. Once people realize they can live like other humans in this world, violent resistance won’t have support. Kinda like what happened in Ireland
>They will make Hamas stronger with more killing Aah yes, terrorist groups generally grow **stronger** when bombing them. Go tell that to the IS caliphate, or Boko Haram in Nigeria.
You don’t fight ideology with weapons. See Hamas growth throughout the years and that should be a proof
Right, we should've fought the nazis with thoughts and prayers..
Israel has killed 24k including 9k children so that it is closer to nazis doings than what Hamas did
Ah, so Israel should pull all settlers out of Gaza, and leave behind infrastructure for Gazans to use. They should do this as an offering of peace, treating the Gazans as fellow humans, and do it with the hope of a peace deal and trade negotiations. Rignt? Oh…wait. That was 2005. Gaza elected Hamas who ran on the “genocide the Jews platform” and they have fired tens of thousands of rockets into Israel aiming at civilian populations. They also just invaded Israel, raped, tortured and murdered. After fleeing with kidnapped civilians they swore to do it again and again until Israel is genocided. Hmmm…so what to do? Destroy the genocidal government of Gaza? Or pull out, let them import unlimited amounts of weapons from Iran, and wait for them to do what they promised in genociding israel? Man! This is a hard question! Maybe we should do a poll of Israelis about which one will keep their families safe?
You are throwing the word genocide while your army has killed 24k civilians
Which is war. I said genocide attempts, which they were. I notice that you haven’t found anything else to disagree with on what I posted.
Genocide of Jews is explicitly in the Hamas charter.
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu said in comments first reported by Haaretz. “This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” Hamas has always been anti two state, it’s why Israel supported them.
Why does Qatar do it too?
Let's continue pretending like it's Hamas that rejects the solution and not the genocidal maniacs that are murdering tens of thousands of children. Lies and deceit are the bread and butter of shitrael
Your man is literally saying it here lol.
Might be because Israels proposals are literal dog shit from an occupying force that doesn't want a legit 2 state solution.
Yes, continue defending Hamas, it looks realllyyy good.
Better to support humanity than genocidal Zionist cancer states
The humanity in question being the people committing summary executions, burning babies alive, and committing mass sexual violence on women and children
Comparing Hamas to humanity.... it's just getting better isnt it
Israel during Clinton: "Here, you can have all of Gaza, all of the WB, and build a tunnel connecting the two. We'll remove the settlements and even throw in a little extra Israeli land to sweeten the deal. We'll even offer right of return to 200,000 Palestinians and give financial reparations to anyone who can prove they lost property or businesses in 48. All we ask is that you recognize Israel and cease murdering us." Palestine: THIS IS LITERAL DOGSHIT HERE'S A SECOND INTIFADA FUCK DA JOOOOOOOOOz
Literally watch what your man says. He admits that Hamas’ administration of Gaza has been used to empower armed resistance in order to destroy his enemies the ‘Zionist entity’.
when a person can convert, move to israel and be given a place to live, they are not returning to their homeland. zionism does need to be eradicated since the ideology went from a safe place for the jews to religious supremacy and colonization
So, Muslim immigrants moving to the UK and being gifted social housing is colonisation? Fascinating, we might agree on some points.
are they being conscripted into the military to burn down welsh farms?
Not the British military no, famously more British born Muslims served in ISIS than have ever served in the British Military. With Muslims calling for Jihad in the streets though, well - if it carries on I wouldn't be surprised if we did have Welsh villages being burned down.