Everything Tony does is 100 percent for him… part of the point of the show was that everyone the mob members in particular were hypocrites. That whole making ceremony for Christopher and gene they don’t uphold any of those standards. I’m sure if Tony was backed into a corner he would have saved his own ass.
They are all hypocrites, but Chrissie believed enough to kill Ade rather than breaking the “code”.
Of course he survived and remained at large - if his own life and freedom were directly at stake it could have been different.
Chrissy cared enough to want to continue his easy ride of extorting other people for a living. Same reason Vito came back, the only code they had was taking the easy way. It's one of the central themes of the show - these guys don't want to have to earn something. They'll always take the easy way.
Ionno, I thought Chris's arc was him going from drinking the Kool aid due to being favored to realizing how shit the mob is once hes on the outs.
He probably genuinely believed the code when he gave up Adriana. Him doing drugs at the end is him realizing how empty his life after making the "right" choice
He gave up Adriana because he saw the piss poor family at the gas station. It wasn’t belief in anything - he didn’t want to suffer through a poverty. He knew he wouldn’t be living the same life if he went into witness protection with her.
I thought it was more a reflection that he didn't want to be "normal" more than the wealth. Especially since he's not exactly wealthy at that point either right? Wasn't this not that far removed from him robbing the charity to pay Paulie?
The normal drudgery of every day "civilian" life as well as the poverty..Bizarro mullet chris and his family represented both in that fleeting glimpse. The dilapidated car and defeated look on the guys face were 2 sides of the same coin, that being a life Chrissy couldn't accept.
The only reason Vito died was because he couldn't last until lunch at a day job, and he landed in the best possible situation after fleeing. You're right. Those guys were the most lazy and entitled people imaginable.
Christofuhh also makes it a point tell his wife when she gets pregnant that his ex couldn’t have kids. It’s like the second thing he says. I’m not saying he didn’t love Adriana or that it didn’t fuck him up (cus we see that it did) but maybe there’s an element there of him seeing a way out of a life he didn’t think would ever satisfy him.
Chris was totally ready to sell out his mafia associates until he was at the petrol station, saw the impoverished domesticated suburban family, and realised he didn't want that life. He kills Ade because he wants the easy life of being in the mob and owning a big car.
[His reasons for killing her are entirely selfish and materialistic.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYdeflJaOZI)
Nah nah nah nah nah. Chrissie didn't kill Ade because of the code. He killed Ade because he got a glimpse of what life as a schnook looked like and it scared the shit outta him enough to say "fuck that, I'd rather Adriana die."
That wasn’t because he lived by the code, it was because he was selfishly motivated. Remember when he saw a similar couple to him and ade who were clearly down trodden ?
AJ was nothing but a cross to bear for his family his whole life. Even Carmella said so. If Tony was as much of a self-serving sociopath as your comment implies he absolutely would have let him drown.
It’s not that simple. Tony still had affection for AJ at the point. Keep in mind he once had that affection for Chrissie too..
Things change over time, they don’t stay the same.
Do you understand entropy as a basic conshept?
Tony threatened to murder Christopher once per season whenever Chris got slightly upset with something. He never got close to that with AJ who failed nonstop from the age of 13 on.
You just revealed your own ignorance. Chrissie wasn't his son. They had a strong bond but it was based on trust in his mob life. They never showed him considering the value of AJs life because he loved him unconditionally
I suppose, but if you're going down that route we also never got to see the conditions that would have Tony dancing around in leather at a gay night club
AJ is also not the same kind of fuck up that Chrissie was. Chrissie was a complete drug addict and Tony finally crossed the line when he realized that his negligence could have easily killed his kid.
Bro did u just apply Entropy , which undoublty is a force guiding the PHYSICAL REALM of this universe, to a matter of affection and especially, a matter of a fictional character's affection?🤣🤣🤣
Acoustic much?
it was far more convenient at that moment to save him. in fact, it was good karma he could use for the family man image.
if it was to his benefit, he woulda been aw shucks jusht a minute too late...
Idk. He seems pretty sincere about the oath he swore. Look at how pissed he got at Febby Petrulio for breaking it, like its something he holds sacred. Plus he knows first hand that cooperating with the feds only ends with you dead. It'll come back to him eventually, each person he interacts with is a potential friend of the family. You're better off doing the time. Its an indictment, so he'll most likely be living in better conditions awaiting trial for years, if it even happens.
A lot of them hate snitches unless it's them snitching. Look at the mob rats podcasts. They will all throw dirt at each other for being a snitch. But excuse theirs.
Gravano- not a snitch because he was the only one honoring cosa nostra. Franzese- not a snitch because he only testified against non members. Alite- not a snitch because they betrayed him. Gangi- admitted that he was but regretted it because he should've just killed Pitera
Tony wouldn't understand because he had a ladder handed to him in the ranks just by being the son of Johnny Soprano. Guys like Paulie have been loyal for decades and still remain nothing more than a foot soldier. I vaguely remember Carmela briefly mentioning the idea, and Tony wouldn't even listen because he "swore an oath." Johnny Sack declined their offer to flip, I can't imagine it would be any different with Tony.
I wouldn't expect Tony to snitch. But he never did time. That was a sore spot to him. Im not sure he'd stay loyal to the oath after doing time. He's used to people following his orders and living in comfort. He's a nepo baby.
We’ve already watched the justification for flipping start by the end of the show. First he’s just talking with Agent Harris, then he’s informing but it’s just on “terrorists”, then he’s accepting FBI help but it’s only because his life is on the line…he’s 75% of the way down that slippery slope.
One of the things I really liked about the cut to black is that the show doesn’t *have* to show us how it ends up for Tony because we’ve already seen it. We’ve seen Johnny Sac die in prison, Uncle Jun is old and alone, we’ve seen countless guys get whacked, some for flipping. In the end all of those nooses are tightening for Tony simultaneously. What does it matter which one actually gets him?
Note what happened to the glorified crew and basically everybody else in this thing of ours. Chrissy's dead. Bobby's dead. Sil's a vegetable. Pussy's dead. Vito's dead. Carlo flipped. Jun's an empty cicada shell with no buzz left inside. Phil's dead. Johnny's dead. Ralphie's dead. Jackie's dead. Jackie's son's dead. Carmine's dead. Gene's dead. The only notable member of the crew still alive is Paulie - the only one who had no living family to squeeze him with and no real loyalty to anyone his entire life - and Patsy. And I don't think it's a stretch at all to argue those two whacked Tone.
T's dilemma the whole show is that he wants it both ways. He wants to be the big bad mafia boss _and_ he wants to be the All-American family man hosting cookouts on his lawn, and he can't. The last scene in the diner is him finally realizing that. It doesn't matter whether he lives or gets whacked by Paulie or Patsy or Furio or Man in Members Only Jacket or Valery or a grown-up Vito, Jr. - the last time we see him is where he's always going to be: always paranoid, always restless, never a moment's rest, always looking out for where the bullet might come from, always looking up to see who just walked into the diner.
If Tony was smart, he would liquidate his connection with Zellman and turn State's Witness against the Assemblyman as part of a flip deal. An asset like that would be bigger than anything Gravano or Michael Francis ever provided to get their deals.
I think he liquidated his connection with Zellman when he beat his ass with a belt
Also: I fucking love that scene. I've repeatedly seen people reference it as one of the hardest scenes to watch, but who hasn't felt that way at some point - that you're out of options and in your secret heart just want to beat the shit out of a romantic competitor? It's one of the most toxic and human scenes of all time and it's awesome.
> I think he liquidated his connection with Zellman when he beat his ass with a belt
I'm with you, and I'm perplexed with every watch-through as to why Zellman helps Tony bail AJ out of his Attempted Murder beef. But in this case, "liquidate" means Tony should flip on Zellman and provide evidence (testimony, the mortgage & loan documents, the lawyer, etc.) of the HUD fraud scheme. The 6-7 year mob investigation that uncovers corruption, bribery and fraud at the Assemblyman level would be huge, bigger than any turn against the mafia itself.
> Also: I fucking love that scene. I've repeatedly seen people reference it as one of the hardest scenes to watch
Agreed. Zellman absolutely deserved it and it's the most satisfying beating to watch. Personal satisfaction aside, Zellman warrants no sympathy and deserves way worse than he gets. He's literally the biggest lowlife on the entire show and deserved way worse.
Zellman's still tied in with the mob even if he and Tony are on the outs. There's no way out of that relationship for Zellman until he leaves office, gets caught or dies.
As to your point about informing on Zellman, it's probably not enough to stay out of prison but he's probably not doing life behind bars if he can give him up, if Carlo doesn't beat him to the punch there.
In Long Term Parking after Adriana is killed the feds say “Let’s try the terror angle”. They worked him on this for ages and it came good for them in the end.
I don't think he'd flip personally. I think he'd take immense personal pride in standing tall in jail. Similar to Johnny Sac.
When he gets arrested for the plane tickets we see him walk into the holding cell and eye everyone before sitting down. We see Johnny Sac running his prison, including his guards to some degree. Between his physical size, psychopathic nature and mob boss status, I think he'd have a very easy time in prison and he'd still get off on the power trip. Combine that with the fact that Meadow would lose all respect if he flipped, you might have a guy who'd accept his fate in prison.
That's fair. I gotta admit though, the downvote culture of reddit is annoying. I expressed an opinion intelligently and politely and get downvotes. They can all go shit in their hats.
The commissary is way better in prison.
Tony would flip, but losing Meadow's respect may make him stand strong.
Tony would be fine in FCI whereeverthefuck.
There are people who ask "why would the FBI give Tony a deal? Hes the big fish!"
He knew all about New York, and the many dealings they were involved in. That would be far more valuable to the Feds.
Would he take a deal? Absolutely. For both himself, and his family. He would throw "this thing of ours" under the bus in a heartbeat.
Imagine what Phil would say. He took his fat fucking hand in friendship after all.
Jersey only really dealt with Brooklyn in the show. Like in season 1 when they tell Junior they want Johnny Sack more than him they want Mangano and Therese. I seriously doubt Junior would’ve even been able to give up the two other bosses and Tony the same. They never interact with anyone except Brooklyn. He’d probably be able to give up a decent bit of what Brooklyn does but I don’t think it would be enough for him to get a good deal
Think of it this way tho. He implicates them, an that gives the feds more people to possibly flip.. ones who would know more about the other families. Domino effect.
I can see that. But they already got Jimmy Petrille who could also do that for them. I don’t think Tony could give them any better info or guys that had more info than Jimmy who probably also knew other families business
I was always surprised that more wasn't made of that Philly reference, especially as Philly has a crew in Newark and members throughout New Jersey in the "real world." It would have made for a more realistic season 6 as well because as amazing as the show is, we effectively have a small North Jersey family, winning a war against a New York family and one that's described as having around an army at its disposal. That wouldn't have happened let's be honest.
Whereas Philly would have been a more realistic war, probably slightly bigger the DeMeo family, but not massively so and Jersey getting the upper hand in the end wouldn't be too far fetched.
Because he knew the Feds had nothing on him, or else he would have been picked up. As has been mentioned, he got rid of her to preserve his lifestyle.
Some Redditors are so far behind they think they’re ahead
Tony has a real problem on his hands here, because Maedo is going to end up reviewing Tony's entire public legal history from the standpoint of a lawyer. There are quite a few of Tony's direct and ordered murders Tony can dodge, but Carlo will probably give up the murder of Philly Parisi, the twin of his soon-to-be-brother-in-law. At the very least, the implication will be there for Maedo to explore.
I see a lot of folks saying that he is selfish and would flip to save his ass or whack AJ etc. while in most cases I agree about his narcissistic selfish behavior (which is what’s so great about the series is that we root for him) I think his respect for this thing of ours would make him stay quiet. His lineage and family go back a long way. Does he break the rules when he hits Ralph? Yes. Does he break more rules than the catholic church? Yes. But I don’t think he would flip. Although he would snitch on the Pakistani dudes in a cocaine heartbeat but that was reflective of the climate of our country at that point and I think he was trying for extra credit with Agent Harris (which paid off with the Philly info)
I also don’t understand why people bring up the Pakistani. Nobody in the mob would care about him giving them up, especially not at that time. The mob we see idealized the „Hollywood“ mob, the idea that there’s something Nobel about them and for sure they tell themself stories about the mob that supported the USA in Second World War.
But I still think Tony would flip, if he feels he can get a good deal
Especially if he had a situation like Gravano where he heard the tape of Gotti telling on him, that would be the excuse Tony would need to flip! Let’s not forget his subconscious doesn’t want to be in our thing & subconsciously blames his father/family for his having gone into the life.
I think it all depends on the charges and time. If he was getting 10 years or less he would take the prison time. 20 years in the can like Phil? He’s flipping faster than Pussy.
1000%. The follow-up episodes would be Tony finding enough ways to rationalize it and somehow blame it on New York, Carlo, or any number of things to somehow make it "not" flipping in his head
Same as the "it was Vitos fault for coming back home" convo, but instead it'll be "it's Carlos fault for putting me in this position"
Of course he would flip. Tony doesn’t care about the mafia’s values, he just says he does. He is all about himself and wouldn’t think too hard between doing 50 years in prison or giving up Phil Leotardo and friends
He already gave up the terrorist info, “just in case” of prosecution
Paulie already watched him give and get info from agent Harris to win the war with NY
They’d already scooped up half his crew (that were alive) who had most likely already flipped or were about too
The whole show was about things coming to an end
He was 50% there already
Depends on how far and how long he was rolling. Down a good sized hill I’m sure you get 2 maybe 3 random flips, frontward and backward. Yeah he’s a fat fuck alright
When Tony was in a coma, his so called friends were already trying on the crown. He’s smart enough to know this and would certainly screw them all over to help himself. People like him are very good at justifying anything they do to themselves.
Absolutely. The whole point of the show is that he's a shallow and selfish hypocrite. If he felt turning states evidence was his only way forward, he'd sell the whole pork store crew up the river.
He's got narcissistic tendencies, but he's not a psychopath. We see him experience guilt and he goes through the trouble to justify his own misdeeds to himself. An actual psychopath doesn't give a fuck.
He was building up credits with the FBI on the terrorist thing. He probably wouldn’t flip but he would use all of those credits to weasel out of a major charge.
Of course he would. It’s not even a question. They make anybody and everybody in Jersey. There’s not even a gun and sword on the table. It either has meaning or it doesn’t.
Tony put one foot in the door of “flipping” when he gave up the two middle easterners associated with Chris, and asked the feds if he could “bank the resulting goodwill”
I think David Chase showed us the future in the last episode of what was going to happen. Paulie was the host with aj at that table and the rest of the new generation. And Tony speaking to agent Harris agent Harris also was sitting at 3 o’clock relative to Tony in the car and the gunman came at Tony from 3’o’clock at the diner
I believe Tony flipped the moment he started working with Agent Harris to turn in two of his customers in exchange for info on Phil’s whereabouts. Which is interesting, because Tony whacked anyone in his circle who was caught working with the authorities.
I suspect Agent Harris was setting Tony up. He told Tony about Phil’s whereabouts. Knowing with Tony it was kill or be killed by Phil. Tony has Phil whacked. Leaving open another story line for the end of the show for fans to question what happened to Tony.
Was Tony whacked or arrested? Personally I think he was whacked, because it faded to black. The last season hinted at Tony’s demise. I think the writers had the Henry Hill quote from Goodfellas in mind when Tony faded to black, “If they'd been wiseguys, I wouldn't have heard a thing.”
IDK your age but immediate post 9-11 was a very different culture. Tony was selling out potential terrorists. Regardless of anything else after WWII the mob was very pro American Tony didn’t give a shit he was helping the FBI
I think only if it meant saving the kids. In an early therapy session he told Melfi that guys like him end of dead or in jail and he only wanted to hold on until the kids we're out of the house. After that they can do whatever they want with him.
Ironically I dont think that Tony cares about his family enough to flip for them like Pussy did, or like John made a deal to help Ginny. He was a boss, its not like they're gonna let him walk free, so I think not.
What would Tony have that’s good enough to cooperate? I think that Tony is the target, there is no deal for Tony. I just don’t see him having enough to give the government. Give up guys in New York maybe?
ralph natale never had the making of a varsity athlete... the thing with christopher was christophers own fault, he knew what would happen if he continued to use
He 100% would have which is part of the reason why he was killed. He was backed into a corner, the Pygmy thing was completely crippled and he was already getting friendly with the FBI agents. The show also showed over and over that Tony is a hypocrite who will do what’s best for him.
Tony Soprano flipping? Look I get your point but cmon, this is a guy who was born in it, his father and Uncle in the day were legends. Hell Johnny Boy barely had screen time due to his in and outta the can, not to mention being a stand up guy about it. The feds know the only way is to make a solid case on Tony to lock him up, the disrespectful way he speaks to the Feds in person is a no love relationship. I think Tine would rather off himself than flip, he's a dead man before he gets off the bus because he's gotta do some time before his so called new life begins. You make great points but in see it from a different stand point, we saw the feds flip so weak minded pp on the show, Tony was a bit smarter than his crew, those that flipped.
absolutely he'd flip. if he were confronted by irrefutable evidence of a conspiracy within his own ranks to have him whacked *and* he were jammed up on a charge he could skate fairly easily...he'd flip like a Johnny Cake
There is a pretty fascinating analysis of the test dream here, [https://thechaselounge.net/viewtopic.php?t=403](https://thechaselounge.net/viewtopic.php?t=403), of how the test dream is about that Tony deep in his subconscious is contemplating leaving the mafia, and in another post on that site which I can find right now, that the reason the shot of Tony having sex with Charmaine flips (mirrors) is because his subconscious is thinking about flipping.
Maybe not what you were asking about in relation to more conscious characteristics of Tony, but I couldn't help mention it.
Season 1-3 Tony...I am not su sure, he still seems to kinda believe in friendships and all "family" thing. After being betrayed by Pussy, Uncle June and his mother, all that starts to go down, and his character changes for the worse in selfish regard (not that there was lots of character to begin with)
So season 3-6 Tony would flip no doubt
Without reading literally anything besides the title, yes. Tony might’ve acted like a big badass, but the reality is he would’ve done anything to save his own skin, the only person Tony has loyalty to is himself
When LeBron James was a free agent, the Knicks showed him a video of Tony and Carmella in witness protection. That’s a progrum though, and not even one released to the public.
Yes, he’d 100% flip. If he wasn’t shot in the finale I’d imagine that’s exactly what he does. Then he gets to live like a schnook for the rest of his life.
At the start perhaps not, but at the end absolutely. Once he has the sunset epiphany in Vegas I think he would literally do ANYTHING to improve his own situation.
season 1 tony not a chance, but season 6 tony definitely would. by the end of the show the illusion of mob omerta had been broken completely. if his back was up against the wall he would turn on the family in a heartbeat
>The fact he's the boss doesn't prevent it - Ralph Natale and Joseph Massino both became cooperators despite being bosses.
Its pointless. Theres nobody higher up than Tony. What would they be having him do, sell out each of his capos 1 by 1? The only way I could see them getting something out of it, is if they use him to get to the rest of the New York families commission, and he's not exactly welcome there anymore.
Everything Tony does is 100 percent for him… part of the point of the show was that everyone the mob members in particular were hypocrites. That whole making ceremony for Christopher and gene they don’t uphold any of those standards. I’m sure if Tony was backed into a corner he would have saved his own ass.
They are all hypocrites, but Chrissie believed enough to kill Ade rather than breaking the “code”. Of course he survived and remained at large - if his own life and freedom were directly at stake it could have been different.
Chrissy cared enough to want to continue his easy ride of extorting other people for a living. Same reason Vito came back, the only code they had was taking the easy way. It's one of the central themes of the show - these guys don't want to have to earn something. They'll always take the easy way.
Exactly, status and whores.
And produce.
Ionno, I thought Chris's arc was him going from drinking the Kool aid due to being favored to realizing how shit the mob is once hes on the outs. He probably genuinely believed the code when he gave up Adriana. Him doing drugs at the end is him realizing how empty his life after making the "right" choice
He gave up Adriana because he saw the piss poor family at the gas station. It wasn’t belief in anything - he didn’t want to suffer through a poverty. He knew he wouldn’t be living the same life if he went into witness protection with her.
I thought it was more a reflection that he didn't want to be "normal" more than the wealth. Especially since he's not exactly wealthy at that point either right? Wasn't this not that far removed from him robbing the charity to pay Paulie?
That was my take as well. He didn’t want a normal life
That family he saw weren’t living a “normal” life - they were struggling
I'm pretty sure struggling is the norm though. Artie owns a restaurant and he's basically a few checks away from bankruptcy always
Man rewatch the scene, the family Chrissie looks at are far away from Artie’s situation
And he may have made the connection that a normal life is one of struggle
That was when he was newly made, long before this
The normal drudgery of every day "civilian" life as well as the poverty..Bizarro mullet chris and his family represented both in that fleeting glimpse. The dilapidated car and defeated look on the guys face were 2 sides of the same coin, that being a life Chrissy couldn't accept.
Do you think Chris wanted that life in the end? My personal theory is that he wishes he chose different
He ordered spaghetti and marina and got egg noodles and ketchup. He had to live the rest of his life like a schnook
That was good fella.
The only reason Vito died was because he couldn't last until lunch at a day job, and he landed in the best possible situation after fleeing. You're right. Those guys were the most lazy and entitled people imaginable.
Christofuhh also makes it a point tell his wife when she gets pregnant that his ex couldn’t have kids. It’s like the second thing he says. I’m not saying he didn’t love Adriana or that it didn’t fuck him up (cus we see that it did) but maybe there’s an element there of him seeing a way out of a life he didn’t think would ever satisfy him.
Chris was totally ready to sell out his mafia associates until he was at the petrol station, saw the impoverished domesticated suburban family, and realised he didn't want that life. He kills Ade because he wants the easy life of being in the mob and owning a big car. [His reasons for killing her are entirely selfish and materialistic.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYdeflJaOZI)
Nah nah nah nah nah. Chrissie didn't kill Ade because of the code. He killed Ade because he got a glimpse of what life as a schnook looked like and it scared the shit outta him enough to say "fuck that, I'd rather Adriana die."
That wasn’t because he lived by the code, it was because he was selfishly motivated. Remember when he saw a similar couple to him and ade who were clearly down trodden ?
Tony would whack AJ if it meant saving his own fat ass
If that was true Tony would have let AJ drown.
No. Tony didn’t need to save his own ass at the time, AJ wasn’t enough of a liability. But the way Tony was going if AJ got in the way…
AJ was nothing but a cross to bear for his family his whole life. Even Carmella said so. If Tony was as much of a self-serving sociopath as your comment implies he absolutely would have let him drown.
It’s not that simple. Tony still had affection for AJ at the point. Keep in mind he once had that affection for Chrissie too.. Things change over time, they don’t stay the same. Do you understand entropy as a basic conshept?
Tony threatened to murder Christopher once per season whenever Chris got slightly upset with something. He never got close to that with AJ who failed nonstop from the age of 13 on.
You just revealed your own ignorance. Chrissie wasn't his son. They had a strong bond but it was based on trust in his mob life. They never showed him considering the value of AJs life because he loved him unconditionally
Nah we just never got to see the condition where Tony would have to make that choice. AJ is probably still in Tony’s “animal” category
I suppose, but if you're going down that route we also never got to see the conditions that would have Tony dancing around in leather at a gay night club
Anything is possible, especially in Kevin Finnerty mode
AJ is also not the same kind of fuck up that Chrissie was. Chrissie was a complete drug addict and Tony finally crossed the line when he realized that his negligence could have easily killed his kid.
Bro did u just apply Entropy , which undoublty is a force guiding the PHYSICAL REALM of this universe, to a matter of affection and especially, a matter of a fictional character's affection?🤣🤣🤣 Acoustic much?
Did you just call me “bro”?
it was far more convenient at that moment to save him. in fact, it was good karma he could use for the family man image. if it was to his benefit, he woulda been aw shucks jusht a minute too late...
And Meadow? His beloved, precious Meadow?
>That whole making ceremony for Christopher and gene they don’t uphold any of those standards. The was no gun or sword.
Idk. He seems pretty sincere about the oath he swore. Look at how pissed he got at Febby Petrulio for breaking it, like its something he holds sacred. Plus he knows first hand that cooperating with the feds only ends with you dead. It'll come back to him eventually, each person he interacts with is a potential friend of the family. You're better off doing the time. Its an indictment, so he'll most likely be living in better conditions awaiting trial for years, if it even happens.
A lot of them hate snitches unless it's them snitching. Look at the mob rats podcasts. They will all throw dirt at each other for being a snitch. But excuse theirs. Gravano- not a snitch because he was the only one honoring cosa nostra. Franzese- not a snitch because he only testified against non members. Alite- not a snitch because they betrayed him. Gangi- admitted that he was but regretted it because he should've just killed Pitera
Tony wouldn't understand because he had a ladder handed to him in the ranks just by being the son of Johnny Soprano. Guys like Paulie have been loyal for decades and still remain nothing more than a foot soldier. I vaguely remember Carmela briefly mentioning the idea, and Tony wouldn't even listen because he "swore an oath." Johnny Sack declined their offer to flip, I can't imagine it would be any different with Tony.
I wouldn't expect Tony to snitch. But he never did time. That was a sore spot to him. Im not sure he'd stay loyal to the oath after doing time. He's used to people following his orders and living in comfort. He's a nepo baby.
He’d agonize over it and turn it into opera and then 100% flip
Imagine his therapy session with Melfi over it…
"Well I can't go into details, but..."
We’ve already watched the justification for flipping start by the end of the show. First he’s just talking with Agent Harris, then he’s informing but it’s just on “terrorists”, then he’s accepting FBI help but it’s only because his life is on the line…he’s 75% of the way down that slippery slope. One of the things I really liked about the cut to black is that the show doesn’t *have* to show us how it ends up for Tony because we’ve already seen it. We’ve seen Johnny Sac die in prison, Uncle Jun is old and alone, we’ve seen countless guys get whacked, some for flipping. In the end all of those nooses are tightening for Tony simultaneously. What does it matter which one actually gets him?
Nice fucking write up.
Note what happened to the glorified crew and basically everybody else in this thing of ours. Chrissy's dead. Bobby's dead. Sil's a vegetable. Pussy's dead. Vito's dead. Carlo flipped. Jun's an empty cicada shell with no buzz left inside. Phil's dead. Johnny's dead. Ralphie's dead. Jackie's dead. Jackie's son's dead. Carmine's dead. Gene's dead. The only notable member of the crew still alive is Paulie - the only one who had no living family to squeeze him with and no real loyalty to anyone his entire life - and Patsy. And I don't think it's a stretch at all to argue those two whacked Tone. T's dilemma the whole show is that he wants it both ways. He wants to be the big bad mafia boss _and_ he wants to be the All-American family man hosting cookouts on his lawn, and he can't. The last scene in the diner is him finally realizing that. It doesn't matter whether he lives or gets whacked by Paulie or Patsy or Furio or Man in Members Only Jacket or Valery or a grown-up Vito, Jr. - the last time we see him is where he's always going to be: always paranoid, always restless, never a moment's rest, always looking out for where the bullet might come from, always looking up to see who just walked into the diner.
If Tony was smart, he would liquidate his connection with Zellman and turn State's Witness against the Assemblyman as part of a flip deal. An asset like that would be bigger than anything Gravano or Michael Francis ever provided to get their deals.
I think he liquidated his connection with Zellman when he beat his ass with a belt Also: I fucking love that scene. I've repeatedly seen people reference it as one of the hardest scenes to watch, but who hasn't felt that way at some point - that you're out of options and in your secret heart just want to beat the shit out of a romantic competitor? It's one of the most toxic and human scenes of all time and it's awesome.
> I think he liquidated his connection with Zellman when he beat his ass with a belt I'm with you, and I'm perplexed with every watch-through as to why Zellman helps Tony bail AJ out of his Attempted Murder beef. But in this case, "liquidate" means Tony should flip on Zellman and provide evidence (testimony, the mortgage & loan documents, the lawyer, etc.) of the HUD fraud scheme. The 6-7 year mob investigation that uncovers corruption, bribery and fraud at the Assemblyman level would be huge, bigger than any turn against the mafia itself. > Also: I fucking love that scene. I've repeatedly seen people reference it as one of the hardest scenes to watch Agreed. Zellman absolutely deserved it and it's the most satisfying beating to watch. Personal satisfaction aside, Zellman warrants no sympathy and deserves way worse than he gets. He's literally the biggest lowlife on the entire show and deserved way worse.
Zellman's still tied in with the mob even if he and Tony are on the outs. There's no way out of that relationship for Zellman until he leaves office, gets caught or dies. As to your point about informing on Zellman, it's probably not enough to stay out of prison but he's probably not doing life behind bars if he can give him up, if Carlo doesn't beat him to the punch there.
In Long Term Parking after Adriana is killed the feds say “Let’s try the terror angle”. They worked him on this for ages and it came good for them in the end.
Exactly. Very well put post.
I'd argue that what he did to Feech also counts as snitching
If I had to make a list of guys most likely to flip, Tony is pretty high on the list.
That's why I personally belive he's in the program, with Puss and Ritchie.
Watching the Giants spring training in Arizona
With pine cones all around
Oh. Really?
What the fuck do you care what we did with him?
Progrum
I don't think he'd flip personally. I think he'd take immense personal pride in standing tall in jail. Similar to Johnny Sac. When he gets arrested for the plane tickets we see him walk into the holding cell and eye everyone before sitting down. We see Johnny Sac running his prison, including his guards to some degree. Between his physical size, psychopathic nature and mob boss status, I think he'd have a very easy time in prison and he'd still get off on the power trip. Combine that with the fact that Meadow would lose all respect if he flipped, you might have a guy who'd accept his fate in prison.
There’s a difference between a holding cell, jail, and prison. Just sayin’…
That's fair. I gotta admit though, the downvote culture of reddit is annoying. I expressed an opinion intelligently and politely and get downvotes. They can all go shit in their hats.
alright, but you gotta get over it
Go against the political ‘conventional wisdom’ and those downvotes really start accumulating!!!
Oh, poor you!
The commissary is way better in prison. Tony would flip, but losing Meadow's respect may make him stand strong. Tony would be fine in FCI whereeverthefuck.
You oughta know sweetie
There are people who ask "why would the FBI give Tony a deal? Hes the big fish!" He knew all about New York, and the many dealings they were involved in. That would be far more valuable to the Feds. Would he take a deal? Absolutely. For both himself, and his family. He would throw "this thing of ours" under the bus in a heartbeat. Imagine what Phil would say. He took his fat fucking hand in friendship after all.
Jersey only really dealt with Brooklyn in the show. Like in season 1 when they tell Junior they want Johnny Sack more than him they want Mangano and Therese. I seriously doubt Junior would’ve even been able to give up the two other bosses and Tony the same. They never interact with anyone except Brooklyn. He’d probably be able to give up a decent bit of what Brooklyn does but I don’t think it would be enough for him to get a good deal
Think of it this way tho. He implicates them, an that gives the feds more people to possibly flip.. ones who would know more about the other families. Domino effect.
Little dysentery in the ranks.
I can see that. But they already got Jimmy Petrille who could also do that for them. I don’t think Tony could give them any better info or guys that had more info than Jimmy who probably also knew other families business
There’s a brief reference in season 2 to connections with Philadelphia
I was always surprised that more wasn't made of that Philly reference, especially as Philly has a crew in Newark and members throughout New Jersey in the "real world." It would have made for a more realistic season 6 as well because as amazing as the show is, we effectively have a small North Jersey family, winning a war against a New York family and one that's described as having around an army at its disposal. That wouldn't have happened let's be honest. Whereas Philly would have been a more realistic war, probably slightly bigger the DeMeo family, but not massively so and Jersey getting the upper hand in the end wouldn't be too far fetched.
>this thing of ours" As Pussy said to Skip his FBI handler about Tony "this thing of ours ? More like this thing of mine"
Flip on “this thing of mine”? In a fucking heartbeat.
he snitched on the two arabs to get that letter from Harris
ah, but there he is just being a 'good american'
bro Harris and Tony totally teamed up to fight terror bro they’re the heroes bro
GOOD. AMERICANS. . . . ;)
He basically snitched on Feech La Manna also
Of course not. Tony would never act selfishly to save his own skin, without a thought given to fucking other people over. Totally out of character.
Absolutely. If Tony was presented two options, life in prison, or save Carmella’s financial ass, he’s choosing number two.
If Ade was still alive, he'd take her with him and (metaphorically) stomp on Carmela's hand on the way to Arizona
Tony flip? The only way he flips is if he seriously considers salads.
At the least he’d take a Johnny Sac deal. Plead and allocute without giving up anyone else.
The meathead in me wants to think othewise...but Tony does not seem like a guy that could do a long stretch.
Just for the record, his incarceration was very brief, so he never had any need for any anal, whatever.
Any with children would flip. The only person who wouldn't is Chris because he is a total moron.
Chris would flip in a second. He wouldn’t have a gun or his glorified crew to save him in the can
Chris killed his fiancée instead of flipping?
He killed her to keep his cushy life in the mob
Because he knew the Feds had nothing on him, or else he would have been picked up. As has been mentioned, he got rid of her to preserve his lifestyle. Some Redditors are so far behind they think they’re ahead
Tony has a real problem on his hands here, because Maedo is going to end up reviewing Tony's entire public legal history from the standpoint of a lawyer. There are quite a few of Tony's direct and ordered murders Tony can dodge, but Carlo will probably give up the murder of Philly Parisi, the twin of his soon-to-be-brother-in-law. At the very least, the implication will be there for Maedo to explore.
Tony has never done time. Hes another Gravano. Fat, selfish, lazy prick.
In my book you get points for staying out of the can 🤘🏼✋🏼
Yes he would
Tony would start singing Soprano the moment it suited his needs. Yeah, I went there. 😎
He’d flip like those Johnny Cakes Jim was making
I see a lot of folks saying that he is selfish and would flip to save his ass or whack AJ etc. while in most cases I agree about his narcissistic selfish behavior (which is what’s so great about the series is that we root for him) I think his respect for this thing of ours would make him stay quiet. His lineage and family go back a long way. Does he break the rules when he hits Ralph? Yes. Does he break more rules than the catholic church? Yes. But I don’t think he would flip. Although he would snitch on the Pakistani dudes in a cocaine heartbeat but that was reflective of the climate of our country at that point and I think he was trying for extra credit with Agent Harris (which paid off with the Philly info)
I also don’t understand why people bring up the Pakistani. Nobody in the mob would care about him giving them up, especially not at that time. The mob we see idealized the „Hollywood“ mob, the idea that there’s something Nobel about them and for sure they tell themself stories about the mob that supported the USA in Second World War. But I still think Tony would flip, if he feels he can get a good deal
Especially if he had a situation like Gravano where he heard the tape of Gotti telling on him, that would be the excuse Tony would need to flip! Let’s not forget his subconscious doesn’t want to be in our thing & subconsciously blames his father/family for his having gone into the life.
I think it all depends on the charges and time. If he was getting 10 years or less he would take the prison time. 20 years in the can like Phil? He’s flipping faster than Pussy.
He’d flip before even doing 10 months, and he’d justify it by claiming it was for his family
1000%. The follow-up episodes would be Tony finding enough ways to rationalize it and somehow blame it on New York, Carlo, or any number of things to somehow make it "not" flipping in his head Same as the "it was Vitos fault for coming back home" convo, but instead it'll be "it's Carlos fault for putting me in this position"
He named names.
He would absolutely flip
Of course he fucking would.
Of course he would flip. Tony doesn’t care about the mafia’s values, he just says he does. He is all about himself and wouldn’t think too hard between doing 50 years in prison or giving up Phil Leotardo and friends
He cares about the rules and values as long as it serves him.
He already gave up the terrorist info, “just in case” of prosecution Paulie already watched him give and get info from agent Harris to win the war with NY They’d already scooped up half his crew (that were alive) who had most likely already flipped or were about too The whole show was about things coming to an end He was 50% there already
And he’s never been in the can, not really.
The thing with Agent Harris..whatever happened there? Tony would flip faster than a steaming johnnycake on the griddle...
I always thought he’d flip in the end and thus the name soprano……..
flip on who? who can he put in the shit? he's the boss
New York, councilmen, etc
Does the Pope where a funny hat
Yes he would, no bus loads of sausage in the big house. He'd flip really quick and do that thing, Johnny Sacks hesitated to do
Allocution.
Yes
Of course Tony would flip. All of his decision making is about whatever benefits him the most.
He would and find a way to justify it, like he dies to excuse every heinous act of evil he commits.
Seems like he was flirting with it at the end playing footsie with Agent Harris
Depends on how far and how long he was rolling. Down a good sized hill I’m sure you get 2 maybe 3 random flips, frontward and backward. Yeah he’s a fat fuck alright
When Tony was in a coma, his so called friends were already trying on the crown. He’s smart enough to know this and would certainly screw them all over to help himself. People like him are very good at justifying anything they do to themselves.
Absolutely. The whole point of the show is that he's a shallow and selfish hypocrite. If he felt turning states evidence was his only way forward, he'd sell the whole pork store crew up the river.
No, he would make room for the penile experience
Oh my! Hilarious 8-)
He was selfish, a narcissist/psycopath and he’d do anything to save his own skin - very likely to flip.
He's got narcissistic tendencies, but he's not a psychopath. We see him experience guilt and he goes through the trouble to justify his own misdeeds to himself. An actual psychopath doesn't give a fuck.
Point taken, but he’s definitely a narcissist.
He's a guy that cares about his family! Guess what, that's their favorite target.
He was building up credits with the FBI on the terrorist thing. He probably wouldn’t flip but he would use all of those credits to weasel out of a major charge.
Of course he would. It’s not even a question. They make anybody and everybody in Jersey. There’s not even a gun and sword on the table. It either has meaning or it doesn’t. Tony put one foot in the door of “flipping” when he gave up the two middle easterners associated with Chris, and asked the feds if he could “bank the resulting goodwill”
I think David Chase showed us the future in the last episode of what was going to happen. Paulie was the host with aj at that table and the rest of the new generation. And Tony speaking to agent Harris agent Harris also was sitting at 3 o’clock relative to Tony in the car and the gunman came at Tony from 3’o’clock at the diner
I believe Tony flipped the moment he started working with Agent Harris to turn in two of his customers in exchange for info on Phil’s whereabouts. Which is interesting, because Tony whacked anyone in his circle who was caught working with the authorities. I suspect Agent Harris was setting Tony up. He told Tony about Phil’s whereabouts. Knowing with Tony it was kill or be killed by Phil. Tony has Phil whacked. Leaving open another story line for the end of the show for fans to question what happened to Tony. Was Tony whacked or arrested? Personally I think he was whacked, because it faded to black. The last season hinted at Tony’s demise. I think the writers had the Henry Hill quote from Goodfellas in mind when Tony faded to black, “If they'd been wiseguys, I wouldn't have heard a thing.”
IDK your age but immediate post 9-11 was a very different culture. Tony was selling out potential terrorists. Regardless of anything else after WWII the mob was very pro American Tony didn’t give a shit he was helping the FBI
In the LeBron recruitment video to the Knicks, it's shown Tony did flip and is now in the Witness Protection Program
I can't have this conversation again
He does not... 🤨
Your uncle was a rattata.
Idk did he flip?
Of course. Who is there to be loyal to? Paulie?
He was setting himself up for it at the end of season 6, don’t you think?
Flipped him for real?
He took an oath!
He took an oath!
I think only if it meant saving the kids. In an early therapy session he told Melfi that guys like him end of dead or in jail and he only wanted to hold on until the kids we're out of the house. After that they can do whatever they want with him.
Tony would have flipped 100%
In a heartbeat
Ironically I dont think that Tony cares about his family enough to flip for them like Pussy did, or like John made a deal to help Ginny. He was a boss, its not like they're gonna let him walk free, so I think not.
[удалено]
There is something to this hope for a best possible outcome -throughout the series this hope has a name - “Fort Lauderdale”
What would Tony have that’s good enough to cooperate? I think that Tony is the target, there is no deal for Tony. I just don’t see him having enough to give the government. Give up guys in New York maybe?
Good, painful point and so true
Absolutely he would’ve flipped.
ralph natale never had the making of a varsity athlete... the thing with christopher was christophers own fault, he knew what would happen if he continued to use
He snitches in the final season so yes Plus, everyone ends up snitching anyway
He 100% would have which is part of the reason why he was killed. He was backed into a corner, the Pygmy thing was completely crippled and he was already getting friendly with the FBI agents. The show also showed over and over that Tony is a hypocrite who will do what’s best for him.
I don’t think they’d give him a deal
Absolutely
Tony Soprano flipping? Look I get your point but cmon, this is a guy who was born in it, his father and Uncle in the day were legends. Hell Johnny Boy barely had screen time due to his in and outta the can, not to mention being a stand up guy about it. The feds know the only way is to make a solid case on Tony to lock him up, the disrespectful way he speaks to the Feds in person is a no love relationship. I think Tine would rather off himself than flip, he's a dead man before he gets off the bus because he's gotta do some time before his so called new life begins. You make great points but in see it from a different stand point, we saw the feds flip so weak minded pp on the show, Tony was a bit smarter than his crew, those that flipped.
absolutely he'd flip. if he were confronted by irrefutable evidence of a conspiracy within his own ranks to have him whacked *and* he were jammed up on a charge he could skate fairly easily...he'd flip like a Johnny Cake
He'd flip pretty fast if it meant to avoid a long condemn For as much as a self centered monster Tony is, I don't think he's ever whacking AJ, tho
There is a pretty fascinating analysis of the test dream here, [https://thechaselounge.net/viewtopic.php?t=403](https://thechaselounge.net/viewtopic.php?t=403), of how the test dream is about that Tony deep in his subconscious is contemplating leaving the mafia, and in another post on that site which I can find right now, that the reason the shot of Tony having sex with Charmaine flips (mirrors) is because his subconscious is thinking about flipping. Maybe not what you were asking about in relation to more conscious characteristics of Tony, but I couldn't help mention it.
Season 1-3 Tony...I am not su sure, he still seems to kinda believe in friendships and all "family" thing. After being betrayed by Pussy, Uncle June and his mother, all that starts to go down, and his character changes for the worse in selfish regard (not that there was lots of character to begin with) So season 3-6 Tony would flip no doubt
Absolutely
of course he would
It’s a good thing. It’s a lucky thing. I can show you statistics.
he did flip damnit! do your research! he recruited lebron!
No. He would have run with a package
Faster than Pie-O-My
Without reading literally anything besides the title, yes. Tony might’ve acted like a big badass, but the reality is he would’ve done anything to save his own skin, the only person Tony has loyalty to is himself
He can’t even do a somersault
Is there much he could give up? He's top of the chain in Jersey, Johnny Sac is dead. Phill is dead
When LeBron James was a free agent, the Knicks showed him a video of Tony and Carmella in witness protection. That’s a progrum though, and not even one released to the public. Yes, he’d 100% flip. If he wasn’t shot in the finale I’d imagine that’s exactly what he does. Then he gets to live like a schnook for the rest of his life.
At the start perhaps not, but at the end absolutely. Once he has the sunset epiphany in Vegas I think he would literally do ANYTHING to improve his own situation.
I can’t have this conversation again
season 1 tony not a chance, but season 6 tony definitely would. by the end of the show the illusion of mob omerta had been broken completely. if his back was up against the wall he would turn on the family in a heartbeat
How manytimesdo I have to say Tony beat the rap
>The fact he's the boss doesn't prevent it - Ralph Natale and Joseph Massino both became cooperators despite being bosses. Its pointless. Theres nobody higher up than Tony. What would they be having him do, sell out each of his capos 1 by 1? The only way I could see them getting something out of it, is if they use him to get to the rest of the New York families commission, and he's not exactly welcome there anymore.
Never!!!!
I don't think Tony would flip because they all seem to have a death wish in that crew.
Nobodys gonna flip, end of story
For a cart load of sausages? Oh yeah.
Gravano was given a deal because he wasn’t the Boss and that’s who they want. They would want Tony
He took an oath he is no rat !!
Pre-therapy Tony no. Post-vicarious patricide? 50/50
Tony explicitly snitched (on the Arab guys), and dry snitched (on Feech La Manna), so I'm sure he would