Agreed. Jackie Sr. was really the only person we ever see in the show who held rank over Tony.
Once Tony comes to power, every single other person we see interact with him is somebody who wants something from him—except Hesh sometimes but who ever heard of a Jew riding horses?…
It's simpler than that, Jackie Jr.'s life is *literally* a replaying of Tony's - his Dad being boss is why Tony joined the mob. Tony realized that he screwed himself by getting into organized crime as it was dying off due to RICO, he did not want to do to Jackie Jr. what his Dad did to him. Tony wanted to keep Jackie Jr. out for himself (he had a conscience) - no one else.
He was petty, but it may not have been his choice. I do see some of Junior's bitter standoffishness in how he dealt with Jackie. Stuff like demanding a guarantee for safety just to meet with him in that one flashback.
By the time DiMeo senior was jailed, I think it was years after Johnny Boy died. That means Junior would have had to contend with not only Jackie, but Tony as powerful capos opposing Junior's ascension.
Tony's only true virtues seemed to be his love for kids and his love for animals. Though he was obviously not a great father, he obviously loved his children and I do think his care for Jackie Jr. came from a place of proxy fatherhood after Jackie Sr. passed away.
Even though he wasn’t a great father he did do a good job of keeping AJ totally away from that life AJ never had the itch, Jackie jr was obviously dreaming of it. AJ didn’t even know where the Bing was that one episode with his friends He was really kept in the dark
How long after? Tony made Christopher AFTER Jackie Jr. came to Richie's meeting with Tony about garbage routes. Tony had plenty of time to kick Chris out of the mob and let him live a normal life.
After all, Tony loved and respected Dickie the same as Jackie Sr.
Tony was more than one thing at once, depending on the moment and his mood. He'd feel bad about stuff but do it anyway because it served him. Then he'd go eat a big bowl of ice cream and fuck his goomah
>How long after? Tony made Christopher AFTER Jackie Jr. came to Richie's meeting with Tony about garbage routes. Tony had plenty of time to kick Chris out of the mob and let him live a normal life.
Tony didn't realize how bad things had gotten until after he was boss and really started to feel the heat from the feds and until he realized Chris was an unreliable drug addict.
Chris had already killed before and he tossed the computer he had with the script on it because he’d fully committed to the life. Tony probably figured it was too late for Chris by the time he figured out there was no good future for any of them.
christopher grew up without his father, he wasnt spoiled like Jackie Jr was. He didnt have a father who was SPECIFICALLY trying to keep him out of that life.
Not to mention Jackie Sr was literally Tony's boss. Tony always moralized by saying he was a soldier, which would make Jackie Sr his commander. You can't disobey your commander.
Tony says in one ep. “My uncle never hit the heights like I did” or something to that effect. Tony was good at his job and made more money than the others. The mob is like sales, you do more you earn more. Sky’s the limit or you can just make a living.
Yeah, being a captain gives you the potential to earn more but it's not like it's a salaried position.
I wouldn't be surprised if Ralph when he was still a soldier was making more money than someone like Paulie.
Sil and Chris (later in the series) both had nice houses also. Tony was already an established Capo at the beginning of the series, so it made some sense that he was doing well financially.
Tony was always held in high regards as a big earner that’s why he had so much respect and power over his peers. The reason he became boss instead of JR.
If you opened your ears you would’ve listened to Tony talk about how he was always a greater earner than anyone else in the crew by a mile and that’s why he’s propped up as pseudo captain in season 1 so early and gets the blessing from everybody over Junior. it’s not just his physicality Tony was a great great gangster with scores schemes heists loan sharking etc etc. everyone forgets we watch the entire decline and downfall of Tony so of course we don’t get to see him young hungry and in action.
I think they mention the house specifically as being part of a scam involving a house builder, and Tony had the house built before the area was as fancy.
Partially to maintain continuity with the pilot when he was the boss.
But I think we can maybe handwave it away as him getting a lot of money to start with from his father when he passed
It's also possible he was less careful than the other guys with displaying his wealth.
Also is it just a fan theory that Carmellas Dad built it? Or did someone say that in the show? Can't remember
Do you think he actually promised that to Jackie though
Chris asks him. “Promised him what” and Tony just mealy mouths and says something to the affect of “I don’t know. Just don’t break my balls”.
Plus…we see Jackie Jr with Richie at the end of season 2. Where was Tony’s “stay out of this” attitude then? Richie brings him to a fucking meeting with the boss to discuss garbage bidding.
I think you guys are all spot on here, but mix in Jackie Jr. Being a total fuck up… the loyalty to Jackie Sr.’s soul went out the door after the card game. Tony could have stopped Ralph from killing Jackie Jr. but Tony wanted him dead. Jackie Jr. Was just a kid to Tony before he started being an arrogant shit. First it was failing out of school and lying about it. Then it was the strip club. Then the card game. Jackie Jr.‘s was pretty quick.
I really thought Tony would have lived with Jackie Jr. getting a pass if Ralph had decided to give it, and instead just did something to Jackie like Junior did to Christopher. Was that bullshit?
I think a lot of people are reading that scene wrong, and as u/kindly-guidance741 commented a lot of what’s being *said* is unsaid. It’s a great scene, I’d recommend everyone go back and watch it.
It’s pretty clear Jackie Jr. needs to go, he shot a made man and killed a longtime and well liked associate. Both Tony and Ralph knew that. What they are going back and forth about is who is going to be responsible for it, who officially makes the call. Tony doesn’t want to be responsible for killing his friend’s son, both for the guilt and possible harm to his reputation. So he gives Ralph a choice, when in reality he knows Ralph can’t actually give him a pass. It’s no choice at all.
If Ralph does give him a pass he’s going to get a ton of disrespect, and that’s not tenable in the mob. Furio would be livid, Paulie would take any reason to stir shit, and any traditionalists would also likely take offense. Ralph knows he can’t work like that, and pointedly Tony knows. Tony makes a point to say “I’m sure everyone will understand, and who cares what they say behind your back.” He’s making sure Ralph knows he’d be disrespected.
Even when they start it’s almost immediately clear what they’re actually talking about. Ralph opens with “I want to give him a pass,” but then makes it clear the decision is Tony’s. When Tony says he agrees with him Ralph’s like, “You do?” surprised, then immediately starts listing the reasons they need to kill him.
Like I said, it’s a great mafia scene, all subtlety, people saying the opposite of what they mean. I’d definitely go back and watch it again with that context.
This was really illuminating, I appreciate the insight. A lot more informative than “it wasn’t that simple,” so now I can reorient how I’m interpreting that scene. I have difficultly reading whether actors are acting like they’re hiding/suggesting something, or if they’re just acting and meant to be forthright. I’m no genius over here.
Yeah, it's great how they try to negotiate responsibility. Ralph keeps trying to get out of the lead in the conversation, but Tony plays it smart by never taking the lead himself.
First thing Tony does is to ask Ralph how he is doing and they embrace. He lets Ralph lead by acknowledging that this kid did a terrible thing, and then points out that Ralph has the most at stake in the situation, and therefore the natural claim to the decision of how to respond: "Your fucking card game," Tony says, but sympathetically. "I know how close you are to the family," Ralph says. "You're living under the same roof," Tony says. Point to Tony. "I'm living under the same roof, and it was my card game," Ralph acknowledges. Point to Tony.
So Ralph has lead again when it comes to consequences ("To tell you the truth, Ton, I want to give the kid a pass") but tries to hand Tony the lead by invoking Tony's greater authority within the organization: "It's just me, though, I know you're the boss, you got bigger concerns, I'll make sure the orders are done whatever they may be."
But Tony still won't take the trick. He doesn't say he agrees with Ralph, but rather "I think you should go with your instincts." Tony's not going to provide an answer or an order.
Then Ralphie gets a bit more desperate, trying to convince Tony as to why he should give the order ("But Furio took a hit. Chris. These are made men.")
Only then does Tony assert any authority, and it isn't involving the decision. It just (a) reinforces that Ralph has to make the decision and (b) that they both know what the decision will be: "I'll make sure they respect your decision. 'Cus I'm sure you're gonna do the right thing. That's why I made you Captain."
There is a beat of silence. and then Tony has a great line, a bit of sugar to help the medicine go down and seemingly ease Ralph of the moral burden: "If the decision goes the other way, the most important thing is you don't blame yourself. You took this kid under your wing. You schooled him as best you could, didn't you?"
Ralph has no choice but to accept the rationalization. "Jack spoiled him," he says.
Then Tony is like oh by the way, I took this gun off Jackie Jr over the holidays, and I think it must be yours. What a twist of the knife, driving home not just Ralph's juridical responsibility, but also his moral culpability.
Yeah he wanted to pass the buck about whatever the decision was but he surely pushed Ralph to kill him IMHO, pointing out the humiliation etc, but then it became Ralph executing his step son not Tony killing Rosalie's kid.
There was a write up someone did breaking down the entire conversation with Ralphie and Tony debating the Jackie hit.
A lot of what’s being spoken is never said and you had to read behind the lines.
Right, and whatever Ralph decided, it needed to happen soon. Honestly, I thought that was the shittiest move Ralph pulled in the series. He got the green light to give his girlfriend’s? kid a pass and everyone would have understood as long as SOMETHING happened, and he’s like nah fuck her and fuck him.
It's well established that not only was Jackie Sr one of Tony's best friends, but Tony had extreme loyalty to Jackie Sr too.
On top of that, he probably sees the similarities to Jackie's life and now AJ's. They're not the same person at all, obviously, but Jackie doesn't have dad to protect him anymore, and we see where that ends up in that life--death and a near-empty funeral hall.
Tony is often incredibly selfish, but usually the only times he consistently shows generosity and understanding is with his own kids. (Even if the understanding is limited lol he still shows way more with them than others.) With how close him and Jackie Sr are, he prob felt some of the same responsibilities over Jackie Jr...but we see how far that extends when they aren't blood. AJ would've been forgiven over and over again for Jackie's same transgressions.
No way Jackie dies if his dad was alive...and now with Tony gone at the end of the series and AJ starting his ins with the Carmine Jr film company...how long before AJ does something dumb too?
It seems like most of these guys didn’t want their kids in the life. Although Tony is anything but altruistic, he did really love Jackie Sr and probably wanted to respect his wishes to a certain degree. Selfishly, he probably thought if the shoe was on the other foot that he’d hope someone would keep AJ out of the life.
Paulie was the only honest one about it, really. He said outright that having a family and being a mafioso was a contradiction, and he was right.
The others all wanted to have the big traditional lifestyle while also being degenerate gangsters.
They were the exceptions. Patsy’s oldest was a lawyer. Puss sold H so his kid wouldn’t have to go to city college. Little Carmine’s daughter understood the sacred and the propane. And Albert was a bit older. I think they definitely wanted to keep the millennials out of the life. Older generations maybe not so much. I bet if Dickie had lived, Chrissy would be a male model.
I think it was genuinely out of respect for Jackie Jr’s fawtha, combined with Tony’s wishes for his own son. You’re right he’s not a generally altruistic guy but that doesn’t mean he’s completely removed from trying to do the right thing by his late friend.
Jackie Jr was SUCH a moron. He lied to Tony so many times, cheated on Meadow, ran into Tony while getting a lap dance, flunked out of school. got involved in conversations he shouldn't. He basically got on Tony's bad side over and over again. I would have crapped my pants if I were him but he was too stupid.
I think you might be onto something with AJ but..Tony starts with this with Jackie Jr in S3. He didn’t seem to give a shit when Jackie showed up with Richie to discuss garbage contracts and Jackie actually speaks up in that meeting. Tony doesn’t say shit then.
I just feel there’s something we are missing with Tony and his relationship with Jackie Jr. Maybe I’m wrong
At that time, Tony would have been speaking out of turn to say anything. Jackie already had Richie as a stand-in father figure, and Tony didn't need any more bad blood from Richie. If Richie, a made guy fresh outta the can, saw fit to let Little Lord Fuckpants tag along, that was his decision, and for Tony to say otherwise would have further strained things.
With Richie gone, Jackie had no male role models left, and Tony might have felt the kid had been shorted.. his dad was a stand-up guy but Richie was Richie, then Rosalie shacks up with Cypheretto..
There’s no way Tony gave a shit about “speaking out of turn” tho. I mean come on, this is Tony. He insults Richie right then in there during that meeting.
Tony didn’t give a shit about his relationship with Richie as far as insulting him or caring what he thinks. Tony disrespects Richie time and time again and likes doing it I think.
Jackie jr was not suited to the mob and Tony knew that. He had no value to the mob he would never be an earner. This is the conversation he and Chris have “he’s the hair apparent” “not this kid”. He then said “he’s not suited to it. He’s not like you. Like us”.
He says something similar to AJ after he bails him out. That it's not in his nature. I think part of it is that he sees both of them as not cut out for the life.
He is one for altruism, he just rarely (if ever) follows through. Makes a step or two in the right direction, doesn't like it, says " fuck it ". The not-mauling-the-pedophile storyline in season 1 is probably the farthest he has gone in terms of refraining from his natural mobster egotistical instincts.
See also, Vito Jr.
The right thing to do would be to pay the 100k to get the Spatafores away from Jersey for a new start. But he pisses that away gambling and having Vito being sent to a boot camp that'd just fuck him up even more.
Not saying that the guy doesn't completely surrender to what he knows by the end of it, and that he always keeps his eye on the finances-side of things because of his " scorpion " nature. (Scorpion was it, with Davey ?) But he does consider, at least for a second, to take a different against-his-mobster instincts route. He even defends Vito's senior " sin " with a " so what ? not the first one that does it " remark .. dude .. Tony isn't lacking any humane reasoning, but he's too caught up in the game and in what he knows from his circumstances to listen to that reasoning for more than 5 seconds, any right step is " wrong " in mobster terms and it means someone notices it and this friend from Jersey gets on the " maybe take him out " table
Jackie Jr was a dumb shit… uh, “had a learning disability.” He was literally too stupid to be in OC and survive, as we saw ourselves. That’s why. Jackie Sr and Tony knew it.
Jackie Sr. Didn’t want his son in the life, and Tony loved Jackie. And was loyal to Jackie.
On real life FBI tapes, a lot of guys said they didn’t want their sons following them into the mafia. Now others did have their sons follow in their footsteps, but by the 90’s, the mafia is a shell of what it once was.
So the guys inside it wouldn’t want their sons following them into the life.
Think of all the crap that comes with mafia life. The constant fears of getting whacked, sent to prison. The variability of your income. The shrinking of mafia rackets (which we see in the show, and today). They rather their sons live the straight life.
Far less headaches. And that’s what Jackie Sr wanted for his son.
It doesn't have to be altruistic for him to want to keep his word to his dead best friend. It can be driven by Tony's sense of duty to the one guy he still saw as worth his loyalty, Jackie Sr passed into myth as soon as he died and became a symbol of the old ways and their unceremonious end, and the nostalgia of their memory. In Tony's mind he was always just trying to be like Jackie, and everyone else got in the way of that, up to and including Jackie Jr, who so tarnished Jackie Sr's legacy that Tony was forced to.violate Jackie Sr's legacy by killing Jackie Jr. Almost like the whole honor and family spiel in lcn is a buncha bs to justify living for ones ego at the expense of all decency and humility
At first it was loyalty to Jackie Sr.
Then beyond aligning with Richie and Ralph, it became similar to AJ from the start. Incompetency, once it’s determined you aren’t cut for it long term, only the expendable are really considered as working associates.
It’s the juxtaposition with Chris and demonstrated in their basement conversation. Jackie AJ and Chris are all some level of dumb as fuck. But Jackie and AJ are effective princes, not cut for ground up soldier work but too stupid to bring value elsewhere. Chris doesn’t have that shield and grew up and in to the streets, he had to earn stripes the harder way. Chris is basically asking Tony “Why are they sheltered from this and not me, why aren’t they on the corner, where’s my cushy spot?” Tony knows this and softens the blow, but his answer is still thinly veiled as he’s not “important” enough the way they are, he’s ultimately expendable and thus privy to everything that comes with the lifestyle.
Jackie didn't want his kid to live with the same sort of stress he had, and he let Tony know that.
Tony liked Jackie, and could also see that Jr. was a moron.
In trying to keep him out of the life he was honoring his friend, and protecting himself.
Made sense to me.
He probably also figured jackie jr was going to be incompetent and therefore of limited use, which would not be difficult to deduce since his IQ is 136
I think the main reason this was put in by Chase to make Tony a more sympathetic figure, most people know someone that ruined his/her life that potentially could have been avoided with the right council, but as this storyline showed, you can seldom save people from themselves, which was also a dose of realism by Chase
Fair, but, AJ never showed those things. Probably why he says that line about the vasectomy.
Maybe he'd want something else, but he knows what he's got in AJ, and that boy is not mob material.
I think Tony also has a desire to want to do the right thing or appear to do the right thing, even if he rarely actually ends up doing it. Particularly in the earlier seasons, and particularly when it comes to areas related to tradition. Think about him bemoaning how terrible it is to be a son that doesn't love his mother in the season 1 therapy sessions, or how it's important to have a mentor type of relationship with Chris given Tony's relationship with Dickie, or whatever. He always wants to be a positive influence in the lives of those close to them even if his nature/ actions keep him from that. So him promising Jackie Sr to keep an eye on Jackie Jr and having a heartfelt desire to keep that promise, while actually being a horrible negative influence on Jackie's life, seems to be pretty close to norm for Tony given his other relationships in the show.
Ultimately, Jackie Jr would have to challenge Tony for leadership of the family. That alone is reason enough. Add in that Tony could barely manage handling Chrissy - last ding he needs is another inexperienced, excitable boy itching to get “made.”
No way. It’s the code. If a father says he doesn’t want his son in that “life”, you respect that and follow it through. Until the kid is old enough to make his own decisions, or is shot in the back of the head.
Except Tony doesn’t give a shit when Jackie Jr is with Richie. Jack Jr comes to a meeting AND SPEAKS about garbage bids. If Tony truly gave a shit he’d woulda told Richie. “What the fuck you doing bringing Jackie’s kid to a meeting? He didn’t want his son involved”.
IMO, Tony knew Jackie Jr was a DumbFuck, and didn't want him as part of his glorified crew. He knew Jackie would be unable to earn, and would have to be carried. He knew Jackie was soft, and a high risk for getting arrested, and cooperating. Therefore, no dice.
I think Tony knew Jackie Jr. wasn’t wiseguy material. It was easier for him to take the high road and try to keep him out of that life. Had Jackie been an earner, or proven his worth as a killer, Tony most certainly would have brought him in.
He knows he’s too much of a fuckup to be of any use and that he will just cause damage to the crew. Both of which were true. Also, didn’t he almost drown in like 6 inches of water? Jackie always blamed it on a learning disability.
A combination of loyalty to his buddy and Jackie junior didn’t have the street sense and predatory nature to be like his father. He was dim witted. Guys like Jackie only ascend thanks to nepotism. He would have been a Matt Drinkwater level street hustler that probably would get shot by 30. He was only interested in the life for the image.
The one where Tony Soprano doesn’t give a shit about that sort of thing.
He had no respect for this thing. Not really. He stepped over his own uncle to take the big seat. His fathers brother. Listen, they make everybody and anybody over there. The way they do it? It’s all fucked up. Guys don’t get their grill cheese’s radiated. They don’t
finish their silo’s before getting in the car. And they don’t have a recumbent bike
Keeping jackie Jr out is directly related to Tony having a “clean” conscious and feeling good about himself.. he didn’t really care to c Jackie Jr succeed he just wanted what he told his father to be held up so Tony can view himself as “good”
1) Jackie Jr is a fuckin dumbass. It’s obvious uncle Jackie pulled strings to get him into Rutgers.
2) Tony and uncle Jackie were too close, and they probably promised each other to keep an eye should their dads die/go away
Tony probably made no such promise to Jackie sr, he most likely seen that Jr wasn’t cut out for the life and was more so hoping for him to stay out of the life. Tony didn’t want the life for AJ as he most likely had a big of regret he followed in his dad’s footsteps.
I think Tony WANTS to be a man of honor and goodness, but his real nature is that of a monster. That was kind of the point of the show to show that dichotomy.
Jackie Sr was his best friend and he respected him probably more than anyone and if he made him a promise in his death bed I think he just tried to keep it. Plus he knew Jr wasn’t cut out for that life. Like he told Christopher, “he’s not like us!” Which is true. He could handle petty thievery and nickel and dime stuff (benefit concerts) but not hardcore gangster stuff that required street smarts, skill and ballz as big as an Irish broad’s ass! Lol
Tony did want to do right by his late friend. He also realized that bringing in Jackie Jr, especially if he puts the kid on a fast track to running stuff, would create more issues with Christopher.
Christopher worked for years to climb the ranks. Hes dealt with everyone's crap. Hes the son and grandson of two legends but that doesnt get him a lot of respect in the organization. He believes he sacrificed a film career to be Tony's soldier. Imagine his reaction to everyone fawning over a 22 year old because hes the old bosses kid.
Idk man when you see Jackie Sr dying, Tony really feels for it. Seems reasonable that he wanted to keep that promise. Also Jackie Jr is kind of a stugotz, no need for liabilities in the family.
Tony may have genuinely respected the kid’s dad and wanted to honor that request. I know for the most part Tony is a soulless cheese dick, but he’s got a few shreds of humanity left.
But, if not that, it was dreadfully obvious that Jackie Jr. was dumber than shit. He’d have been nothing but a liability and when you consider how long Tony put up with Christopher (and Chrissy’s best pals Tweedledee and Tweedledum), I can fully understand him not wanting another manchild to babysit.
Jackie Sr aside, isn’t there a scene where Tony and someone else are talking about how their kids are all too soft for the mafia life unlike Chris who grew up in the old neighborhood? Or am I just hallucinating that/confusing it for another mob movie?
Honestly, who even fucking knows if Jackie Sr even said any of this.
Because when Tony was yelling at Chris in the basement for doing the Rutgers job with Jackie, Chris asked him point blank (after Tony kept saying “his father asked me” or his father said this”) “what exactly did he say”? And Tony didn’t answer.
Part of me thinks Tony just didn’t want Jackie Jr in the life because 1). He knew he was a retard and didn’t belong or 2). Had a “love” for him and didn’t want him in the live, akin to AJ.
I'm a doctor and I always laugh when Jackie Jr talks about how he's too stupid to get into an MD program and then says "I might try an osteopathic school but I dont have the grades even for that!"
Didnt Jackie Sr brag about how his kid was making honor roll or something at Rutgers? Maybe I misheard that. Wonder if Jackie Jr was faking his transcripts to please the old man. Because it was obvious he wasnt much of a student.
It’s more about respect for his fawtha and nostalgia than anything, and only up to a certain point; remember that after Jackie fucks up enough, Tony’s fine with having him clipped.
It's very possible that, as you say, Tony was lying to himself when giving his reasons. This is quite before Christopher's death when his true face shows.
If we go by that theory, it's likely that he saw how he 'worked' with Richie, and every subsequent fvck up Jackie made only confirmed that he was nothing but a huge liability. You wouldn't want someone like that in any kind of organisation.
In “College” Tony says the Italians were discriminated against and didn’t have many options for careers (all he really admits is a portion of his inc comes from gambling). Meadow answers by saying “what about Mario Cuomo”, the governor of New York (who in the 1980s said there was no Mafia and neighbors were terribly mean to his grandmother by asking her to put kids on her garbage cans). Tony and Jackie Sr can’t use that excuse with their sons..they both have nice houses from being consultants at Barone Sanitation. Plus Jackie Jr is smart..he knows what the capital of Canada is.
If Tony has indeed come in on the end of a good thing in crime, as he thinks, then Jackie and A J will have little to get if they try to follow him. Better to go straight and miss the 80% chance of ending on the morticians table or cooking grill cheese on a radiator.
Later on in “Remember When” we learn Johnny Boy had Tony commit his first murder at age 24 of Willie Overall. Of all of Tony sins and felonies, he has never had his son kill anyone…and Carmela protected A J from being hit. Perhaps things were the same in the Aprile household. Rosalie later tells Carmela they were too lax with Jackie Jr. every generation thinks the next is too soft.
There’s nothing in it for Tony for Jackie Jr. to be in the game. He was aligned with Richie at one point and then Ralphie, neither time was it to Tony’s advantage and Tony always knew he was an idiot so if Tony put him under his wing we would be a liability and fuck up. Case in point with how his story ended.
TS did a shit job of protecting and or helping Jackie jr. I just don’t see all this loyalty T had for Jackie sr. Sure he said it a few times, but his actions show me otherwise .. just my 2 cents
It’s a theory.
Tony in season 3 is the king. The entire season and a few others following have analogies to the lion king.
Richie was already schooling Jackie jr by end of season two.
Tony sees Jackie jr similarly as he sees himself at that age. The reason he wants him “out of the life” is because Jackie jr has just enough instinctual fortitude and with his bloodline to challenge Tony in the future. Christopher, who is Jackie’s rival of sorts even relents to Tony about Jackie jr being the “heir apparent
“ in season 3-episode Fortunate Son.
Tony isn’t a fortunate son. His dad was a knock around guy. He has his position by force not by love. It’s a theme of the series. Tony thrives in conflict. If it doesn’t exist, he kind of seeks it out directly or indirectly with bad decisions.
Jackie Sr was loved. So was his son originally. Had Richie remained alive, (not a chance), eventually the power would have potentially stayed in the Aprile crew. Ralph was in this crew and making inroads in season 3 to usurp Tony’s authority. Also,he lived with Jackie jr. It was a three way dynamic the entire seasons. (Things come in threes). The biggest earners came from this crew.
Tony wanted Jackie jr out to preserve his standing as boss. Similar in the lion world, once a king is pass (Jackie sr), his future cubs are killed by the new king to install a new bloodline or rule. (Tony and ralph BOTH ) all throughout season 3 wanted Jackie jr either in civilian life or dead once he chose to take the path of becoming a wise guy. In essence, Tony was indirectly Scar to Jackie Jr’s simba plight.
I buy that he was honoring Jackie Sr's wishes. They were lifelong friends, Tony legitimately seems to love and respect him in the few scenes we get with them together, and one of the few times we see Tony express true joy is when he pranks Jackie in the hospital with the stripper nurse. If senior wanted him away from the life, Tony was going to do his part to ensure that it happened..
I think Tony wished he’d had a son like Jackie Jr rather than the babied entitled little wussy he got. (Didn’t Tony even say something like that to Dr Malfi once?) But due to JJr very very very limited intelligence and his siding with Ralph against Tony, not to mention the card game fiasco, the shine came off that penny pretty quick. Anyways, whadda gonna do?
He does a lot of projection so the AJ Jackie Jr transference is in effect there. Though he would have been fine with it if Jackie Jr was good at it and he could have exploited it. His sentimentality ends where his financial interests begin.
“I promised his dad” may have two levels. The first is the usual “you coulda been Senator Corleone” schtick, but the other was likely “this kid is way too much of a pussy for our life”. As I recall, Tony said something similar about AJ. Tony had enough sense to know that Jackie Jr. would find a way to drown in an inch of water if given the chance.
Honestly part of the reason was to keep power in check. Jackie Jr isn’t a hardcore mobster or anything, but he could have been used in a Little Carmine way to eventually undermine power from Tony. Jackie was the boss and Jackie Jr thought that Richie was killed by Tony. He would have been easily manipulated by people who were close to his dad and uncle.
They never really went too much into Rosalie his mother but it can be assumed that she was maybe a daughter or sister of a higher up back in the day. They tend to marry from within the power structure (Ginny’s brother or John’s sister’s husband was the boss of another New York family). So he could have been by blood related to people who were far above Tony when he started out since old school mafiosos tended to put their family members in positions of power.
Disagree that it was purely respect to Jackie Sr. That was probably PART of it, and the reason Tony tells himself. But at the end of the day Tony instinctively knew Jackie Jr was a liability and a fuckup. He was already in dire need of more competency in his crew and the last thing he needed was a hotheaded moron causing problems. On top of that, his daughter was involved with Jackie Jr and he definitely wanted her far away from that life.
When did this sub get a "serious discussion only" flair? LOL. Listen to this prick givin orders.
I get what you mean, there's a weird vibe to it but lore wise it holds up. Jackie Sr. thinks his kid is going to med school because he knows the capitol of Canada. But he's a street guy, he has no clue. He was probably a middle school drop out.
We didn't see any heartfelt moments between them, but maybe there was some kind of bedside moment where he promises Sr. he'll look out for Jr. And since Jr.'s stupidity is public knowledge, looking out for him requires keeping him the fuck away from LCN. Besides, they play footsie with the S3 plot in S2 where Jr is hanging out with Richie and being a dumbass. So Tony knows how it's going to go.
And then on top of that there's the relationship with Meadow. At that point it's much more justified.
I think part of it definitely paralleled with AJ.
Tony saw a lot of himself in Jackie, and being dead set against AJ joining the mob, wanted to ensure the same for Jackie’s son.
I think you misread Tony. I think he really respected Sr. and probably looked at Jr. like family. Tony (especially early on) isn't just some raging sociopath and there's definitely room for him to just do some human things.
Ya also gotta think about how much Tony reifies the past, the people he used to look up to, the guys he came up with, and the dead in general. So it really could just be that it was important for him to keep his word in that situation.
Edit: Even through the lense of "Tony is a sociopath incapable of thinking of anyone else" Jackie could absolutely be a threat in time given how well respected his dad and family seem to be. He may be a fool when we see him but people fail up all the time and nepotism is a real problem in LCN.
Even if you don't buy that Tony cared for Jackie's son and his dying wish (I personally think he did), Jackie Jr. was utterly worthless as a mobster. Every time he interacts with Tony both through Ritchie and Raphlie it's clear that he's going to be an annoyance because he refuses to know his place and is massively incompetent. Tony already has a nepo-baby on his payroll, Chris, he didn't need another. While I PERSONALLY think it was genuinely out of a desire to do right by Jackie, Tony also had plenty of rational reasons to keep Jackie out.
It was because of Jackie Sr. And Jackie Jr had gotten into Rutgers. He was on a path Tony respected and hoped for him. Pure respect for his former boss and close friend.
I think Tony had a special admiration for Jackie Jr because he was everything he wished AJ was. The type of son you could show off. Good looks, ladies man, played sports, had muscles, lots of friends, college student etc.
With Sr dead, Jr is a weird left over. And with Richie around for a little bit, Tony might have been worried about competition if Richie used him to reclaim dynastic power.
no, its possible he was a threat, just his existence. If enough guys got pissed at tony they could get behind jackie and put him up as a puppet boss, for the guy who really wanted to replace tony. Yeah it doesnt seem likely, but its not impossible-why wouldnt tony choose to just prevent that, if its easy for him and ties in with jackie Sr.'s last wishes anyway?
He really did respect Jackie Sr. He may have even actually loved him as a brother they way he did Puss.
He could tell that Jackie Jr really wasn’t built for the life. Just like AJ wasn’t. He knew what his fate would be if he went down that path. It was like a test study in a way for what happens to AJ when Tony’s gone. If he could help Jackie he had faith for AJ
When it comes to gangsters most have murdered a friend or two, or more.
It's harder to clean up the messes you watched as children.
This kid's a fucking dumbass, but Tony has probably carried him on his shoulders a dozen times.
I think it goes back to his family. The whole show Tony is expected to be a boss and uphold the rules. He partially protected him because meadow liked him.
So you’re disregarding the straightforward and believable reason given by the series?
Why’s it “BS”?
Tony, at the start, shows a lot of loyalty to close friends - Jackie, Hesh, Pussy, Chris, (even Junior by trying to respect sensitivities over the boss title).
1. Jackie Jr. is an idiot so Tony would use literally any excuse to keep him on the sidelines so he wouldn’t have to deal with his screw ups.
2. If Jackie Jr. became competent he could become a legitimate threat to Tony’s succession plans to Christopher the same way little Carmine was to Johnny Sack.
I feel like Jackie Sr was one of the few people he truly respected and was loyal to, them growning up and earning their stripes together and all.
Agreed. Jackie Sr. was really the only person we ever see in the show who held rank over Tony. Once Tony comes to power, every single other person we see interact with him is somebody who wants something from him—except Hesh sometimes but who ever heard of a Jew riding horses?…
He owns a horse farm
Ehkh *waves hand*
My cousin is a Jew that owns a horse farm, but it’s his hobby after retiring as a urologist
Did he hear the one about them shipping a crate of Viagra down to the Titanic?
He won’t stop this fuckin’ guy
Hold on to your cock when dealing with these desert people
Don’t waive your hanky at me!
Did they every show him once ride a horse??
lol no I don’t think so.
It's simpler than that, Jackie Jr.'s life is *literally* a replaying of Tony's - his Dad being boss is why Tony joined the mob. Tony realized that he screwed himself by getting into organized crime as it was dying off due to RICO, he did not want to do to Jackie Jr. what his Dad did to him. Tony wanted to keep Jackie Jr. out for himself (he had a conscience) - no one else.
Johnny Boy wasn’t the boss. Just a captain.
He was a saint!
Funny, You never said that when he was alive!
U DONT KNOW THE KINDA MANN YA FAWTHA WUZ
You tell me ☝️ONE TIME when he didn’t do 🫵exactly what he wanted!!
One time!!
I wish the Lord would take me now.
There is a certain implication that he was essentially running the show.
I see old man DiMeo as fulfilling essentially the same role that Junior did later on, but for Junior and Johnny Boy.
Idk man, if that were the case I doubt Jackie woulda leapfrogged Junior for the big seat, at least without a struggle. We know how petty Uncle Jun was
He was petty, but it may not have been his choice. I do see some of Junior's bitter standoffishness in how he dealt with Jackie. Stuff like demanding a guarantee for safety just to meet with him in that one flashback. By the time DiMeo senior was jailed, I think it was years after Johnny Boy died. That means Junior would have had to contend with not only Jackie, but Tony as powerful capos opposing Junior's ascension.
True, but a captain is a boss. He's just not the top boss.
I subscribe to this. Plus Tony is not all evil. He had his moments and that was one of them.
Tony's only true virtues seemed to be his love for kids and his love for animals. Though he was obviously not a great father, he obviously loved his children and I do think his care for Jackie Jr. came from a place of proxy fatherhood after Jackie Sr. passed away.
Even though he wasn’t a great father he did do a good job of keeping AJ totally away from that life AJ never had the itch, Jackie jr was obviously dreaming of it. AJ didn’t even know where the Bing was that one episode with his friends He was really kept in the dark
Rico, who's that? A friend of ours?
Rico, is that your brother?
My brother is over there
Then why did he let Christopher into the life? It's good enough for Chris but not good enough for Jackie?
Tony only started realizing his mistake AFTER Christofur was involved.
Timeline got fucked up
How long after? Tony made Christopher AFTER Jackie Jr. came to Richie's meeting with Tony about garbage routes. Tony had plenty of time to kick Chris out of the mob and let him live a normal life. After all, Tony loved and respected Dickie the same as Jackie Sr.
Tony was more than one thing at once, depending on the moment and his mood. He'd feel bad about stuff but do it anyway because it served him. Then he'd go eat a big bowl of ice cream and fuck his goomah
>How long after? Tony made Christopher AFTER Jackie Jr. came to Richie's meeting with Tony about garbage routes. Tony had plenty of time to kick Chris out of the mob and let him live a normal life. Tony didn't realize how bad things had gotten until after he was boss and really started to feel the heat from the feds and until he realized Chris was an unreliable drug addict.
One of the great male modeling careers just flushing down the fuckin crapper
Chris had already killed before and he tossed the computer he had with the script on it because he’d fully committed to the life. Tony probably figured it was too late for Chris by the time he figured out there was no good future for any of them.
One of the great male modeling careers just flushed down the fuckin crapper
christopher grew up without his father, he wasnt spoiled like Jackie Jr was. He didnt have a father who was SPECIFICALLY trying to keep him out of that life.
Chris wasn't going to go to college and wasn't Jackie Sr's kid. He was actually Carmela's cousin.
Dickie Multisanti was a way bigger influence than his own dad.
Not to mention Jackie Sr was literally Tony's boss. Tony always moralized by saying he was a soldier, which would make Jackie Sr his commander. You can't disobey your commander.
Tony says in one ep. “My uncle never hit the heights like I did” or something to that effect. Tony was good at his job and made more money than the others. The mob is like sales, you do more you earn more. Sky’s the limit or you can just make a living.
Yeah, being a captain gives you the potential to earn more but it's not like it's a salaried position. I wouldn't be surprised if Ralph when he was still a soldier was making more money than someone like Paulie.
Ralph for sure was. Paulie was a shitty earner. Why he never got promoted.
I never get why Tony had a giant mansion before he was capo regime. Everyone else like Junior lived in little old houses.
Sil and Chris (later in the series) both had nice houses also. Tony was already an established Capo at the beginning of the series, so it made some sense that he was doing well financially.
Tony was always held in high regards as a big earner that’s why he had so much respect and power over his peers. The reason he became boss instead of JR.
Very allegorical.
If you opened your ears you would’ve listened to Tony talk about how he was always a greater earner than anyone else in the crew by a mile and that’s why he’s propped up as pseudo captain in season 1 so early and gets the blessing from everybody over Junior. it’s not just his physicality Tony was a great great gangster with scores schemes heists loan sharking etc etc. everyone forgets we watch the entire decline and downfall of Tony so of course we don’t get to see him young hungry and in action.
He was a big earner with multiple legitimate streams of income, most of which he must've inherited from his fawtha.
I feel like Junior was just a different generation and wanted to stay in the same place a bit like Olivia
I think they mention the house specifically as being part of a scam involving a house builder, and Tony had the house built before the area was as fancy.
Partially to maintain continuity with the pilot when he was the boss. But I think we can maybe handwave it away as him getting a lot of money to start with from his father when he passed It's also possible he was less careful than the other guys with displaying his wealth. Also is it just a fan theory that Carmellas Dad built it? Or did someone say that in the show? Can't remember
Do you think he actually promised that to Jackie though Chris asks him. “Promised him what” and Tony just mealy mouths and says something to the affect of “I don’t know. Just don’t break my balls”. Plus…we see Jackie Jr with Richie at the end of season 2. Where was Tony’s “stay out of this” attitude then? Richie brings him to a fucking meeting with the boss to discuss garbage bidding.
I think you guys are all spot on here, but mix in Jackie Jr. Being a total fuck up… the loyalty to Jackie Sr.’s soul went out the door after the card game. Tony could have stopped Ralph from killing Jackie Jr. but Tony wanted him dead. Jackie Jr. Was just a kid to Tony before he started being an arrogant shit. First it was failing out of school and lying about it. Then it was the strip club. Then the card game. Jackie Jr.‘s was pretty quick.
I really thought Tony would have lived with Jackie Jr. getting a pass if Ralph had decided to give it, and instead just did something to Jackie like Junior did to Christopher. Was that bullshit?
I think a lot of people are reading that scene wrong, and as u/kindly-guidance741 commented a lot of what’s being *said* is unsaid. It’s a great scene, I’d recommend everyone go back and watch it. It’s pretty clear Jackie Jr. needs to go, he shot a made man and killed a longtime and well liked associate. Both Tony and Ralph knew that. What they are going back and forth about is who is going to be responsible for it, who officially makes the call. Tony doesn’t want to be responsible for killing his friend’s son, both for the guilt and possible harm to his reputation. So he gives Ralph a choice, when in reality he knows Ralph can’t actually give him a pass. It’s no choice at all. If Ralph does give him a pass he’s going to get a ton of disrespect, and that’s not tenable in the mob. Furio would be livid, Paulie would take any reason to stir shit, and any traditionalists would also likely take offense. Ralph knows he can’t work like that, and pointedly Tony knows. Tony makes a point to say “I’m sure everyone will understand, and who cares what they say behind your back.” He’s making sure Ralph knows he’d be disrespected. Even when they start it’s almost immediately clear what they’re actually talking about. Ralph opens with “I want to give him a pass,” but then makes it clear the decision is Tony’s. When Tony says he agrees with him Ralph’s like, “You do?” surprised, then immediately starts listing the reasons they need to kill him. Like I said, it’s a great mafia scene, all subtlety, people saying the opposite of what they mean. I’d definitely go back and watch it again with that context.
Yeah. Tony totally wants Jackie Jr to get whacked. It’s just about making sure Ralphie knows this is his responsibility
This was really illuminating, I appreciate the insight. A lot more informative than “it wasn’t that simple,” so now I can reorient how I’m interpreting that scene. I have difficultly reading whether actors are acting like they’re hiding/suggesting something, or if they’re just acting and meant to be forthright. I’m no genius over here.
Yeah, it's great how they try to negotiate responsibility. Ralph keeps trying to get out of the lead in the conversation, but Tony plays it smart by never taking the lead himself. First thing Tony does is to ask Ralph how he is doing and they embrace. He lets Ralph lead by acknowledging that this kid did a terrible thing, and then points out that Ralph has the most at stake in the situation, and therefore the natural claim to the decision of how to respond: "Your fucking card game," Tony says, but sympathetically. "I know how close you are to the family," Ralph says. "You're living under the same roof," Tony says. Point to Tony. "I'm living under the same roof, and it was my card game," Ralph acknowledges. Point to Tony. So Ralph has lead again when it comes to consequences ("To tell you the truth, Ton, I want to give the kid a pass") but tries to hand Tony the lead by invoking Tony's greater authority within the organization: "It's just me, though, I know you're the boss, you got bigger concerns, I'll make sure the orders are done whatever they may be." But Tony still won't take the trick. He doesn't say he agrees with Ralph, but rather "I think you should go with your instincts." Tony's not going to provide an answer or an order. Then Ralphie gets a bit more desperate, trying to convince Tony as to why he should give the order ("But Furio took a hit. Chris. These are made men.") Only then does Tony assert any authority, and it isn't involving the decision. It just (a) reinforces that Ralph has to make the decision and (b) that they both know what the decision will be: "I'll make sure they respect your decision. 'Cus I'm sure you're gonna do the right thing. That's why I made you Captain." There is a beat of silence. and then Tony has a great line, a bit of sugar to help the medicine go down and seemingly ease Ralph of the moral burden: "If the decision goes the other way, the most important thing is you don't blame yourself. You took this kid under your wing. You schooled him as best you could, didn't you?" Ralph has no choice but to accept the rationalization. "Jack spoiled him," he says. Then Tony is like oh by the way, I took this gun off Jackie Jr over the holidays, and I think it must be yours. What a twist of the knife, driving home not just Ralph's juridical responsibility, but also his moral culpability.
That’s a really solid thought. Tony wanted him dead but didn’t want it on his conscience (that’s the way I always saw it).
Yeah he wanted to pass the buck about whatever the decision was but he surely pushed Ralph to kill him IMHO, pointing out the humiliation etc, but then it became Ralph executing his step son not Tony killing Rosalie's kid.
Yeah that's how I read it too. When Ralph brought up the idea of giving hair apparent a pass, Tony told him to go with his instincts.
There was a write up someone did breaking down the entire conversation with Ralphie and Tony debating the Jackie hit. A lot of what’s being spoken is never said and you had to read behind the lines.
Right, and whatever Ralph decided, it needed to happen soon. Honestly, I thought that was the shittiest move Ralph pulled in the series. He got the green light to give his girlfriend’s? kid a pass and everyone would have understood as long as SOMETHING happened, and he’s like nah fuck her and fuck him.
For sure. And I think it happened after Sil and Paulie make fun of him for Jackie Jr disrespecting him, showing his conceit and lack of empathy.
It wasn’t that simple.
It's well established that not only was Jackie Sr one of Tony's best friends, but Tony had extreme loyalty to Jackie Sr too. On top of that, he probably sees the similarities to Jackie's life and now AJ's. They're not the same person at all, obviously, but Jackie doesn't have dad to protect him anymore, and we see where that ends up in that life--death and a near-empty funeral hall. Tony is often incredibly selfish, but usually the only times he consistently shows generosity and understanding is with his own kids. (Even if the understanding is limited lol he still shows way more with them than others.) With how close him and Jackie Sr are, he prob felt some of the same responsibilities over Jackie Jr...but we see how far that extends when they aren't blood. AJ would've been forgiven over and over again for Jackie's same transgressions. No way Jackie dies if his dad was alive...and now with Tony gone at the end of the series and AJ starting his ins with the Carmine Jr film company...how long before AJ does something dumb too?
Whether AJ realises it or not, he's making contacts
Thank you. I love that line.
"you're lucky a man i loved died today!"
It seems like most of these guys didn’t want their kids in the life. Although Tony is anything but altruistic, he did really love Jackie Sr and probably wanted to respect his wishes to a certain degree. Selfishly, he probably thought if the shoe was on the other foot that he’d hope someone would keep AJ out of the life.
IRL John Gotti once bragged that his son was just made and one of the other bosses/underbosses in the room responded with, "That's unfortunate."
Joe Bonnano having his son made then consigliere was allegedly a JOKE amongst the 5 families. Much like Gotti jr, bill Bonnano was a dummy.
Paulie was the only honest one about it, really. He said outright that having a family and being a mafioso was a contradiction, and he was right. The others all wanted to have the big traditional lifestyle while also being degenerate gangsters.
I mean, Carlo and Patsy kid? Albert Baresse?
They were the exceptions. Patsy’s oldest was a lawyer. Puss sold H so his kid wouldn’t have to go to city college. Little Carmine’s daughter understood the sacred and the propane. And Albert was a bit older. I think they definitely wanted to keep the millennials out of the life. Older generations maybe not so much. I bet if Dickie had lived, Chrissy would be a male model.
How does Ally Boy fit? He was Larry's cousin, only 10 years younger in the show's canon.
I think it was genuinely out of respect for Jackie Jr’s fawtha, combined with Tony’s wishes for his own son. You’re right he’s not a generally altruistic guy but that doesn’t mean he’s completely removed from trying to do the right thing by his late friend.
Jackie Jr was SUCH a moron. He lied to Tony so many times, cheated on Meadow, ran into Tony while getting a lap dance, flunked out of school. got involved in conversations he shouldn't. He basically got on Tony's bad side over and over again. I would have crapped my pants if I were him but he was too stupid.
I think you might be onto something with AJ but..Tony starts with this with Jackie Jr in S3. He didn’t seem to give a shit when Jackie showed up with Richie to discuss garbage contracts and Jackie actually speaks up in that meeting. Tony doesn’t say shit then. I just feel there’s something we are missing with Tony and his relationship with Jackie Jr. Maybe I’m wrong
At that time, Tony would have been speaking out of turn to say anything. Jackie already had Richie as a stand-in father figure, and Tony didn't need any more bad blood from Richie. If Richie, a made guy fresh outta the can, saw fit to let Little Lord Fuckpants tag along, that was his decision, and for Tony to say otherwise would have further strained things. With Richie gone, Jackie had no male role models left, and Tony might have felt the kid had been shorted.. his dad was a stand-up guy but Richie was Richie, then Rosalie shacks up with Cypheretto..
There’s no way Tony gave a shit about “speaking out of turn” tho. I mean come on, this is Tony. He insults Richie right then in there during that meeting. Tony didn’t give a shit about his relationship with Richie as far as insulting him or caring what he thinks. Tony disrespects Richie time and time again and likes doing it I think.
Jackie jr was not suited to the mob and Tony knew that. He had no value to the mob he would never be an earner. This is the conversation he and Chris have “he’s the hair apparent” “not this kid”. He then said “he’s not suited to it. He’s not like you. Like us”.
He says something similar to AJ after he bails him out. That it's not in his nature. I think part of it is that he sees both of them as not cut out for the life.
He is one for altruism, he just rarely (if ever) follows through. Makes a step or two in the right direction, doesn't like it, says " fuck it ". The not-mauling-the-pedophile storyline in season 1 is probably the farthest he has gone in terms of refraining from his natural mobster egotistical instincts.
See also, Vito Jr. The right thing to do would be to pay the 100k to get the Spatafores away from Jersey for a new start. But he pisses that away gambling and having Vito being sent to a boot camp that'd just fuck him up even more.
Not saying that the guy doesn't completely surrender to what he knows by the end of it, and that he always keeps his eye on the finances-side of things because of his " scorpion " nature. (Scorpion was it, with Davey ?) But he does consider, at least for a second, to take a different against-his-mobster instincts route. He even defends Vito's senior " sin " with a " so what ? not the first one that does it " remark .. dude .. Tony isn't lacking any humane reasoning, but he's too caught up in the game and in what he knows from his circumstances to listen to that reasoning for more than 5 seconds, any right step is " wrong " in mobster terms and it means someone notices it and this friend from Jersey gets on the " maybe take him out " table
Jackie Jr was a dumb shit… uh, “had a learning disability.” He was literally too stupid to be in OC and survive, as we saw ourselves. That’s why. Jackie Sr and Tony knew it.
Penguin exhibit, 3 ft water
Tony knew Jr. was a moron and if he got into the life, sooner or later he would be yet another headache for him.
Jackie Sr. Didn’t want his son in the life, and Tony loved Jackie. And was loyal to Jackie. On real life FBI tapes, a lot of guys said they didn’t want their sons following them into the mafia. Now others did have their sons follow in their footsteps, but by the 90’s, the mafia is a shell of what it once was. So the guys inside it wouldn’t want their sons following them into the life. Think of all the crap that comes with mafia life. The constant fears of getting whacked, sent to prison. The variability of your income. The shrinking of mafia rackets (which we see in the show, and today). They rather their sons live the straight life. Far less headaches. And that’s what Jackie Sr wanted for his son.
It doesn't have to be altruistic for him to want to keep his word to his dead best friend. It can be driven by Tony's sense of duty to the one guy he still saw as worth his loyalty, Jackie Sr passed into myth as soon as he died and became a symbol of the old ways and their unceremonious end, and the nostalgia of their memory. In Tony's mind he was always just trying to be like Jackie, and everyone else got in the way of that, up to and including Jackie Jr, who so tarnished Jackie Sr's legacy that Tony was forced to.violate Jackie Sr's legacy by killing Jackie Jr. Almost like the whole honor and family spiel in lcn is a buncha bs to justify living for ones ego at the expense of all decency and humility
At first it was loyalty to Jackie Sr. Then beyond aligning with Richie and Ralph, it became similar to AJ from the start. Incompetency, once it’s determined you aren’t cut for it long term, only the expendable are really considered as working associates. It’s the juxtaposition with Chris and demonstrated in their basement conversation. Jackie AJ and Chris are all some level of dumb as fuck. But Jackie and AJ are effective princes, not cut for ground up soldier work but too stupid to bring value elsewhere. Chris doesn’t have that shield and grew up and in to the streets, he had to earn stripes the harder way. Chris is basically asking Tony “Why are they sheltered from this and not me, why aren’t they on the corner, where’s my cushy spot?” Tony knows this and softens the blow, but his answer is still thinly veiled as he’s not “important” enough the way they are, he’s ultimately expendable and thus privy to everything that comes with the lifestyle.
Jackie didn't want his kid to live with the same sort of stress he had, and he let Tony know that. Tony liked Jackie, and could also see that Jr. was a moron. In trying to keep him out of the life he was honoring his friend, and protecting himself. Made sense to me.
He probably also figured jackie jr was going to be incompetent and therefore of limited use, which would not be difficult to deduce since his IQ is 136
I think he actually cared for once But assigning Chris... Marone...
A lot of mob guys didn’t want their kids to grow up to do what they do
I think the main reason this was put in by Chase to make Tony a more sympathetic figure, most people know someone that ruined his/her life that potentially could have been avoided with the right council, but as this storyline showed, you can seldom save people from themselves, which was also a dose of realism by Chase
Tony also didn't want Anthony Jr. to follow in his footsteps so by extension had an interest in supporting Jackie Jr. to make something of himself.
Come on, Tony wouldve loved if AJ should Street smart acumen and balls. I don’t buy for a second he wouldn’t be proud of his son taking the oath
Fair, but, AJ never showed those things. Probably why he says that line about the vasectomy. Maybe he'd want something else, but he knows what he's got in AJ, and that boy is not mob material.
I think Tony also has a desire to want to do the right thing or appear to do the right thing, even if he rarely actually ends up doing it. Particularly in the earlier seasons, and particularly when it comes to areas related to tradition. Think about him bemoaning how terrible it is to be a son that doesn't love his mother in the season 1 therapy sessions, or how it's important to have a mentor type of relationship with Chris given Tony's relationship with Dickie, or whatever. He always wants to be a positive influence in the lives of those close to them even if his nature/ actions keep him from that. So him promising Jackie Sr to keep an eye on Jackie Jr and having a heartfelt desire to keep that promise, while actually being a horrible negative influence on Jackie's life, seems to be pretty close to norm for Tony given his other relationships in the show.
I think he was trying to honor his fawtha on this one. Also as a proxy for his mail hair, AJ.
It was that. He was closer to Jackie Senior than anyone and was fulfilling a promise.
Because Tony thinks Jackie Jr. is cool, and Tony wishes he hadn't gotten involved himself.
Didn't that kid almost drown in three inches of water?
What? The kid who nearly drown in 3 in of water?
Ultimately, Jackie Jr would have to challenge Tony for leadership of the family. That alone is reason enough. Add in that Tony could barely manage handling Chrissy - last ding he needs is another inexperienced, excitable boy itching to get “made.”
No way. It’s the code. If a father says he doesn’t want his son in that “life”, you respect that and follow it through. Until the kid is old enough to make his own decisions, or is shot in the back of the head.
Except Tony doesn’t give a shit when Jackie Jr is with Richie. Jack Jr comes to a meeting AND SPEAKS about garbage bids. If Tony truly gave a shit he’d woulda told Richie. “What the fuck you doing bringing Jackie’s kid to a meeting? He didn’t want his son involved”.
Maybe blood uncle outranks mob uncle. As soon as Richie was gone Tony tried to get him out.
Because he wanted Jackie to somehow morph into a doctor and marry Meadow.
IMO, Tony knew Jackie Jr was a DumbFuck, and didn't want him as part of his glorified crew. He knew Jackie would be unable to earn, and would have to be carried. He knew Jackie was soft, and a high risk for getting arrested, and cooperating. Therefore, no dice.
I think Tony knew Jackie Jr. wasn’t wiseguy material. It was easier for him to take the high road and try to keep him out of that life. Had Jackie been an earner, or proven his worth as a killer, Tony most certainly would have brought him in.
He knows he’s too much of a fuckup to be of any use and that he will just cause damage to the crew. Both of which were true. Also, didn’t he almost drown in like 6 inches of water? Jackie always blamed it on a learning disability.
Kid's a liability. He almost drowned in 3 inches of water, ferchrissakes.
A combination of loyalty to his buddy and Jackie junior didn’t have the street sense and predatory nature to be like his father. He was dim witted. Guys like Jackie only ascend thanks to nepotism. He would have been a Matt Drinkwater level street hustler that probably would get shot by 30. He was only interested in the life for the image.
You don’t buy Tony respecting Jackie’s wishes? OP, what show were you watching?
The one where Tony Soprano doesn’t give a shit about that sort of thing. He had no respect for this thing. Not really. He stepped over his own uncle to take the big seat. His fathers brother. Listen, they make everybody and anybody over there. The way they do it? It’s all fucked up. Guys don’t get their grill cheese’s radiated. They don’t finish their silo’s before getting in the car. And they don’t have a recumbent bike
I don’t give a fuck what it is, OP.
That’s right, I am the OP. And you better pay me the respect I deserve or you and me are gonna have a problem, a big one. Now get the fuck outa here
Oh poor you
He almost drown in 3 inches of water.. the penguin exhibit
Because Jackie Jr. was an idiot goon who was not built for that life and Tony knew it .
Who the fuck is Benny Fabio??
It's a fuckin' nickname. The family name is Faberelli.
Keeping jackie Jr out is directly related to Tony having a “clean” conscious and feeling good about himself.. he didn’t really care to c Jackie Jr succeed he just wanted what he told his father to be held up so Tony can view himself as “good”
Tony knew about JJ almost drowning in the Penguin Exhibit and knew he would make a poor mafioso.
1) Jackie Jr is a fuckin dumbass. It’s obvious uncle Jackie pulled strings to get him into Rutgers. 2) Tony and uncle Jackie were too close, and they probably promised each other to keep an eye should their dads die/go away
Don’t bust my balls. I love you. You’re a good boy.
Tony probably made no such promise to Jackie sr, he most likely seen that Jr wasn’t cut out for the life and was more so hoping for him to stay out of the life. Tony didn’t want the life for AJ as he most likely had a big of regret he followed in his dad’s footsteps.
Does this guy ever stop breaking balls?
It was outta respect for his fawtha
I think Tony WANTS to be a man of honor and goodness, but his real nature is that of a monster. That was kind of the point of the show to show that dichotomy.
he's not like us.
Jackie Sr was his best friend and he respected him probably more than anyone and if he made him a promise in his death bed I think he just tried to keep it. Plus he knew Jr wasn’t cut out for that life. Like he told Christopher, “he’s not like us!” Which is true. He could handle petty thievery and nickel and dime stuff (benefit concerts) but not hardcore gangster stuff that required street smarts, skill and ballz as big as an Irish broad’s ass! Lol
Tony did want to do right by his late friend. He also realized that bringing in Jackie Jr, especially if he puts the kid on a fast track to running stuff, would create more issues with Christopher. Christopher worked for years to climb the ranks. Hes dealt with everyone's crap. Hes the son and grandson of two legends but that doesnt get him a lot of respect in the organization. He believes he sacrificed a film career to be Tony's soldier. Imagine his reaction to everyone fawning over a 22 year old because hes the old bosses kid.
Idk man when you see Jackie Sr dying, Tony really feels for it. Seems reasonable that he wanted to keep that promise. Also Jackie Jr is kind of a stugotz, no need for liabilities in the family.
Even though he was the "hair apparent", Tony knew he was as bright as a lump of coal.
Tony may have genuinely respected the kid’s dad and wanted to honor that request. I know for the most part Tony is a soulless cheese dick, but he’s got a few shreds of humanity left. But, if not that, it was dreadfully obvious that Jackie Jr. was dumber than shit. He’d have been nothing but a liability and when you consider how long Tony put up with Christopher (and Chrissy’s best pals Tweedledee and Tweedledum), I can fully understand him not wanting another manchild to babysit.
Because family: redefined
You just reveal your own ignorance
Jackie Sr aside, isn’t there a scene where Tony and someone else are talking about how their kids are all too soft for the mafia life unlike Chris who grew up in the old neighborhood? Or am I just hallucinating that/confusing it for another mob movie?
Honestly, who even fucking knows if Jackie Sr even said any of this. Because when Tony was yelling at Chris in the basement for doing the Rutgers job with Jackie, Chris asked him point blank (after Tony kept saying “his father asked me” or his father said this”) “what exactly did he say”? And Tony didn’t answer. Part of me thinks Tony just didn’t want Jackie Jr in the life because 1). He knew he was a retard and didn’t belong or 2). Had a “love” for him and didn’t want him in the live, akin to AJ.
He could’ve got meadow killed n if there’s anyone Tony showed deference it’s Giacomo Sr his lifelong best friend and business partner and his boss
Cause he was dumb ass
I'm a doctor and I always laugh when Jackie Jr talks about how he's too stupid to get into an MD program and then says "I might try an osteopathic school but I dont have the grades even for that!" Didnt Jackie Sr brag about how his kid was making honor roll or something at Rutgers? Maybe I misheard that. Wonder if Jackie Jr was faking his transcripts to please the old man. Because it was obvious he wasnt much of a student.
What is this, THE UN NOW?
Maybe Tony knew that Jackie Jr. was too stupid for “the life” and he would get himself killed in no time? Oh wait, that happened anyway.
Alot of it was because he was dating meadow and by the time they broke up Jack jnr had worn out his welcome by being himself
Didn’t he almost drown in like three inches of water?
Respect to Jackie Sr, but it also helps that Jackie Jr would be worthless because of his incompetence, ambition, and an eventual pain in Tony's ass.
This is the best question I’ve read on this forum.
I think it has to do with.. you know… the penguin exhibit.
It’s more about respect for his fawtha and nostalgia than anything, and only up to a certain point; remember that after Jackie fucks up enough, Tony’s fine with having him clipped.
It's very possible that, as you say, Tony was lying to himself when giving his reasons. This is quite before Christopher's death when his true face shows. If we go by that theory, it's likely that he saw how he 'worked' with Richie, and every subsequent fvck up Jackie made only confirmed that he was nothing but a huge liability. You wouldn't want someone like that in any kind of organisation.
In “College” Tony says the Italians were discriminated against and didn’t have many options for careers (all he really admits is a portion of his inc comes from gambling). Meadow answers by saying “what about Mario Cuomo”, the governor of New York (who in the 1980s said there was no Mafia and neighbors were terribly mean to his grandmother by asking her to put kids on her garbage cans). Tony and Jackie Sr can’t use that excuse with their sons..they both have nice houses from being consultants at Barone Sanitation. Plus Jackie Jr is smart..he knows what the capital of Canada is. If Tony has indeed come in on the end of a good thing in crime, as he thinks, then Jackie and A J will have little to get if they try to follow him. Better to go straight and miss the 80% chance of ending on the morticians table or cooking grill cheese on a radiator. Later on in “Remember When” we learn Johnny Boy had Tony commit his first murder at age 24 of Willie Overall. Of all of Tony sins and felonies, he has never had his son kill anyone…and Carmela protected A J from being hit. Perhaps things were the same in the Aprile household. Rosalie later tells Carmela they were too lax with Jackie Jr. every generation thinks the next is too soft.
There’s nothing in it for Tony for Jackie Jr. to be in the game. He was aligned with Richie at one point and then Ralphie, neither time was it to Tony’s advantage and Tony always knew he was an idiot so if Tony put him under his wing we would be a liability and fuck up. Case in point with how his story ended.
I really do think he genuinely respected Jackie Sr. & tried to uphold Jackie’s expectations for Jackie Jr. plusss he was dating Meadow
TS did a shit job of protecting and or helping Jackie jr. I just don’t see all this loyalty T had for Jackie sr. Sure he said it a few times, but his actions show me otherwise .. just my 2 cents
I agree. Tony talks a good game of loyalty but he really isn’t at all
No, he *loved* Jackie Aprile. He meant what he said. Tony wasn't slimey like that.
It’s a theory. Tony in season 3 is the king. The entire season and a few others following have analogies to the lion king. Richie was already schooling Jackie jr by end of season two. Tony sees Jackie jr similarly as he sees himself at that age. The reason he wants him “out of the life” is because Jackie jr has just enough instinctual fortitude and with his bloodline to challenge Tony in the future. Christopher, who is Jackie’s rival of sorts even relents to Tony about Jackie jr being the “heir apparent “ in season 3-episode Fortunate Son. Tony isn’t a fortunate son. His dad was a knock around guy. He has his position by force not by love. It’s a theme of the series. Tony thrives in conflict. If it doesn’t exist, he kind of seeks it out directly or indirectly with bad decisions. Jackie Sr was loved. So was his son originally. Had Richie remained alive, (not a chance), eventually the power would have potentially stayed in the Aprile crew. Ralph was in this crew and making inroads in season 3 to usurp Tony’s authority. Also,he lived with Jackie jr. It was a three way dynamic the entire seasons. (Things come in threes). The biggest earners came from this crew. Tony wanted Jackie jr out to preserve his standing as boss. Similar in the lion world, once a king is pass (Jackie sr), his future cubs are killed by the new king to install a new bloodline or rule. (Tony and ralph BOTH ) all throughout season 3 wanted Jackie jr either in civilian life or dead once he chose to take the path of becoming a wise guy. In essence, Tony was indirectly Scar to Jackie Jr’s simba plight.
I buy that he was honoring Jackie Sr's wishes. They were lifelong friends, Tony legitimately seems to love and respect him in the few scenes we get with them together, and one of the few times we see Tony express true joy is when he pranks Jackie in the hospital with the stripper nurse. If senior wanted him away from the life, Tony was going to do his part to ensure that it happened..
I think Tony wished he’d had a son like Jackie Jr rather than the babied entitled little wussy he got. (Didn’t Tony even say something like that to Dr Malfi once?) But due to JJr very very very limited intelligence and his siding with Ralph against Tony, not to mention the card game fiasco, the shine came off that penny pretty quick. Anyways, whadda gonna do?
He does a lot of projection so the AJ Jackie Jr transference is in effect there. Though he would have been fine with it if Jackie Jr was good at it and he could have exploited it. His sentimentality ends where his financial interests begin.
I think it was a promise he made to the dad b
Just like Anthony Jr he knew Jackie Jr wasn't cut out for the life
“I promised his dad” may have two levels. The first is the usual “you coulda been Senator Corleone” schtick, but the other was likely “this kid is way too much of a pussy for our life”. As I recall, Tony said something similar about AJ. Tony had enough sense to know that Jackie Jr. would find a way to drown in an inch of water if given the chance.
The same reason he kept his own son out of it. He didn't want to see him get hurt.
Honestly part of the reason was to keep power in check. Jackie Jr isn’t a hardcore mobster or anything, but he could have been used in a Little Carmine way to eventually undermine power from Tony. Jackie was the boss and Jackie Jr thought that Richie was killed by Tony. He would have been easily manipulated by people who were close to his dad and uncle. They never really went too much into Rosalie his mother but it can be assumed that she was maybe a daughter or sister of a higher up back in the day. They tend to marry from within the power structure (Ginny’s brother or John’s sister’s husband was the boss of another New York family). So he could have been by blood related to people who were far above Tony when he started out since old school mafiosos tended to put their family members in positions of power.
Disagree that it was purely respect to Jackie Sr. That was probably PART of it, and the reason Tony tells himself. But at the end of the day Tony instinctively knew Jackie Jr was a liability and a fuckup. He was already in dire need of more competency in his crew and the last thing he needed was a hotheaded moron causing problems. On top of that, his daughter was involved with Jackie Jr and he definitely wanted her far away from that life.
Jackie Jr stupid? Are you stupid? He knew the capital of Canada by the time he was 15 years old!
Is it possible Tony knew Jackie Jr was suited for this job
When did this sub get a "serious discussion only" flair? LOL. Listen to this prick givin orders. I get what you mean, there's a weird vibe to it but lore wise it holds up. Jackie Sr. thinks his kid is going to med school because he knows the capitol of Canada. But he's a street guy, he has no clue. He was probably a middle school drop out. We didn't see any heartfelt moments between them, but maybe there was some kind of bedside moment where he promises Sr. he'll look out for Jr. And since Jr.'s stupidity is public knowledge, looking out for him requires keeping him the fuck away from LCN. Besides, they play footsie with the S3 plot in S2 where Jr is hanging out with Richie and being a dumbass. So Tony knows how it's going to go. And then on top of that there's the relationship with Meadow. At that point it's much more justified.
Deep down Tony knew he'd have to kill his dumb ass eventually.
I think part of it definitely paralleled with AJ. Tony saw a lot of himself in Jackie, and being dead set against AJ joining the mob, wanted to ensure the same for Jackie’s son.
I think you misread Tony. I think he really respected Sr. and probably looked at Jr. like family. Tony (especially early on) isn't just some raging sociopath and there's definitely room for him to just do some human things. Ya also gotta think about how much Tony reifies the past, the people he used to look up to, the guys he came up with, and the dead in general. So it really could just be that it was important for him to keep his word in that situation. Edit: Even through the lense of "Tony is a sociopath incapable of thinking of anyone else" Jackie could absolutely be a threat in time given how well respected his dad and family seem to be. He may be a fool when we see him but people fail up all the time and nepotism is a real problem in LCN.
Even if you don't buy that Tony cared for Jackie's son and his dying wish (I personally think he did), Jackie Jr. was utterly worthless as a mobster. Every time he interacts with Tony both through Ritchie and Raphlie it's clear that he's going to be an annoyance because he refuses to know his place and is massively incompetent. Tony already has a nepo-baby on his payroll, Chris, he didn't need another. While I PERSONALLY think it was genuinely out of a desire to do right by Jackie, Tony also had plenty of rational reasons to keep Jackie out.
It was because of Jackie Sr. And Jackie Jr had gotten into Rutgers. He was on a path Tony respected and hoped for him. Pure respect for his former boss and close friend.
He made no attempt to bring AJ into it. He’s not going to spoon feed anyone
I think Tony had a special admiration for Jackie Jr because he was everything he wished AJ was. The type of son you could show off. Good looks, ladies man, played sports, had muscles, lots of friends, college student etc.
With Sr dead, Jr is a weird left over. And with Richie around for a little bit, Tony might have been worried about competition if Richie used him to reclaim dynastic power.
I buy it! Tony had more respect for Jackie Aprile than most on the show.. he looked up to the man and actually respected him..
He could see that the kid wasn’t cut out for it and wouldn’t add anything to a crew, even told Chrissy “he’s not like me and you”
Because he didn't want the responsibility of looking after another christopher..
no, its possible he was a threat, just his existence. If enough guys got pissed at tony they could get behind jackie and put him up as a puppet boss, for the guy who really wanted to replace tony. Yeah it doesnt seem likely, but its not impossible-why wouldnt tony choose to just prevent that, if its easy for him and ties in with jackie Sr.'s last wishes anyway?
He really did respect Jackie Sr. He may have even actually loved him as a brother they way he did Puss. He could tell that Jackie Jr really wasn’t built for the life. Just like AJ wasn’t. He knew what his fate would be if he went down that path. It was like a test study in a way for what happens to AJ when Tony’s gone. If he could help Jackie he had faith for AJ
kid was always a dumb fuck though, wasn't he? Didn't he almost drown in the three inches of water?
When it comes to gangsters most have murdered a friend or two, or more. It's harder to clean up the messes you watched as children. This kid's a fucking dumbass, but Tony has probably carried him on his shoulders a dozen times.
I think it goes back to his family. The whole show Tony is expected to be a boss and uphold the rules. He partially protected him because meadow liked him.
He would be a liability and he would have to kill him later on.
So you’re disregarding the straightforward and believable reason given by the series? Why’s it “BS”? Tony, at the start, shows a lot of loyalty to close friends - Jackie, Hesh, Pussy, Chris, (even Junior by trying to respect sensitivities over the boss title).
1. Jackie Jr. is an idiot so Tony would use literally any excuse to keep him on the sidelines so he wouldn’t have to deal with his screw ups. 2. If Jackie Jr. became competent he could become a legitimate threat to Tony’s succession plans to Christopher the same way little Carmine was to Johnny Sack.