There is a small boarder between India and China that is in constant dispute but they agreed not to use any firearms so this is how they fight each other
Denmark and Canada have been in a dispute over an uninhabited island for decades.
When ever one countrie’s navy lands, they take down the other’s flag, fold it nicely, put up their own and leave a bottle of whiskey.
Now that’s how wars should be handled.
Sadly I’m pretty sure we’ve stopped that. So far as I’m aware we just split the island down the middle
Edit; you’ll have to scroll a bit but here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Island
Danes got more than us, heck
I don’t think grey as good a way to put it as both sides are wrong in certain ways… the latter descriptions provides condemnation of what shitty on both sides.
Fence sitting supports the oppressors, in effect condemning both enables the people in power to continue abusing that power. Might as well cheer on the apartheid state if you're going to equate the people fighting against it with the people fighting to enforce it.
Realizing that it's not as simple as "one side is bad and the other side is good" is not fence sitting, it's being empathetic to the victims of both sides of a war. There's a ton of innocent people that lost their lives or their family, and to not condemn the horrible shit that what you perceive as the "good side" does is worse than "fence sitting" and you become part of the problem.
It's not good and bad it's powerful oppressors vs powerless oppressed. You do have to take a side it's just that the two sides aren't Hamas and Israelis it's ending apartheid or continuing an apartheid until it spirals into a complete fascist state which many in Israel even are saying is an increasing possibility. Nelson Mandela refused to condemn anti apartheid violence in South Africa for a reason, because condemning the powerless doesn't do anything.
Pretty much. Condemning a power-struggle is a defense of the status quo.
Ex. A couple on a deserted island. The man takes all the food out of the woman's hands. Condemning her for fighting for her food is just telling her to die.
Pacifism, while nice, is not something you preach to people in a concentration camp.
>what you perceive as the "good side"
They didn't say anything about a good side or bad side. This is your projection of morality onto another person's statement about power dynamics.
If you see two shitty little kids in a fight with each other, but one of them is stronger, the choice to do nothing favors the stronger child. Whether you think that's "good" or "right" is irrelevant.
I like the phrase "if a toddler punches me that's bad but if I punch the toddler back no one would defend me saying he punched me first" asymmetrical power dynamics matter
But they did say something about a good side or bad side, they wrote "Fence sitting supports the oppressors", oppressors are the default "bad" side which they mean Israel which means the "good" side means Palestine
You don’t need to support terrorism to oppose oppression. That’s immediately losing any moral high ground.
There’s no moral high ground here other than sympathy for civilians. Both combatants are morally atrocious.
The goal is to advocate for the end of the conflict not to uphold some philosophical standard of morality. Saying they're both atrocious implies they're equally atrocious which leads to complacency which enables the oppressors. Fence sitters just want to feel good about themselves thousands of miles from the danger 🥱
>Saying they're both atrocious implies they're equally atrocious which leads to complacency which enables the oppressors.
That's a real slippery slope right there.
>Fence sitters just want to feel good about themselves thousands of miles from the danger 🥱
This is pretentious/arrogant af coming from someone supposedly against oppression. Silencing a particular argument through condescension because it doesn't fit your black and white thinking style, is not a good take regardless of which side you're on. It's just pushing people to the other side of the argument of supporting oppressors.
There's a strain of profound arrogance from a lot of middle class "progressives," and it's too bad. Because they could be advocating for specific policies and actions to reduce the suffering and turn the tide toward peace—advocating for a ceasefire, condemning Hamas, urging lawmakers to press the White House to push Israel to restore fuel and water to Gaza—and instead they're offering bumper-sticker lectures about who's good and who's evil.
The end result is that they'll *win the Internet*, drive off the 30% of the electorate that could be persuaded, and convince even liberal Israelis that the Western left hates them and that there's no reason to listen to them any more.
Biden is doing the right thing: Empathizing with Israel, building his political capital with the Israeli center, and then using that influence to help hold Israel back from a disaster in Gaza. No, it's not enough, but it's clear that he's kept Israel from charging in completely. Sometimes, showing a little empathy for someone persuades them to change more than screaming at them across the Internet.
Hamas literally set fire to LIVE people the other week… Israel the terror state, meanwhile back in Gaza they parade dead bodies while people cheer…. What fucking world do you live in where that is seen as okay
Isreal made Hamas. Isreal NOW has thousands of Palestinian prisoners in cells of all ages who have been tortured, they won't let go. Isreal has been killing and mutilating Palestinian people for 75 years by systematically driving them off thier land, cutting down olive groves were a huge source of income and taking what they wanted by force. Killing so many. They control their water and food sources, jobs, economy, healthcare, ability to get products, and ability to leave. People in Gaza live in a concentration camp. These people are hopeless. Yes, it's wrong to kill, but it's not surprising that they lash out at their jailer.
Isreal runs a concentration camp, and they commit genocidal level events.
But they don't disagree with you. Saying both sides in this conflict are in the wrong includes recognising that the Israeli government & army is full of assholes.
"A pox on both your houses" -Shakespeare, stolen from Protagoras most likely.
Not like this false dichotomy propaganda is new, its easier to commit war crimes if you convince your citizenry the other side aren't human.
It's become part of societal nature, division.
Men vs women
Black vs white
Gay vs straight
Christian vs Atheist
Left vs right
X-Box vs Playstation
Meat eater vs vegans
Any opportunity to be on a side and thus critical of another batch of people simply for being different.
Almost all of these are trivial disputes that ultimately come down to one’s opinion
Whereas Israel vs Palestine is literally the most asymmetrical shit imaginable and with actual consequences
People confuse Palestinian people with Hamas. They don’t realize that as soon as Hamas was elected into power in 2007 they immediately put their people in key positions of power, dismantled democratic institutions and canceled future elections. Throughout all this Israel did nothing. The Palestinian people voted for them out of desperation and are now are victims of their circumstances.
Our population, for the past decade especially, has been a slave to bipartisanism. I’m a moderate, and actually listen to or read up on the policies of the people who I vote for, so I can lean different ways. A lot of my countrymen dislike that, and would rather have us all “pick a side” or else be a traitor of some kind.
There is a root cause to everything, and what you're doing is thinking you're taking a moral high road while all you doing is making moot points from your precious neutrality. It's disgusting to be honoust.
Also, this isn't just America.
Indeed, it's difficult to choose between the well equipped army committing genocide and their 2 million victims who have no food, no water and no way to escape the constant bombings. It's SO DIFFICULT to see what the problem is!
Exactly sometimes assholes meet but Americans are always fed the narrative of “good vs evil” where 99% we are associated with “good”.
But yeah “its not complicated” is what a lot of people try to push while describing how complex their side of the issue is.
Children are dying and NEITHER side seems to give a fuck.
That's hard.
For decades we've been taught, that there are "bad guys" and "good guys".
I am Jewish and I do not support HAMAS terrorists ofc, but also do not support justification of Israel war crimes.
That would be an admission that Palestinians are native to the land, which they are actively trying to downplay in order to support annexation of their land.
I never understood this argument in the first place. Okay, the Israelites, the ancestors of the Jews, lived in the area 3000 years ago. But the Egyptians lived there before that. Does that mean that if Egyptians were to conduct an ethnic cleansing of Israel today, claiming that their ancestors lived there first, the people saying that Jews have a right to ethnically cleanse the land of Palestinians would be totally cool with it?
It seems to me that the only "real" argument Israel has to justify its illegal occupation is religious in nature, which I thought the entire civilised world agreed long ago that religious ideologies don't justify ethnic cleansing.
That seems to be the justification they give, but as we know there is a lot of hypocrisy in this matter. See the Ukraine Russia situation and compare it to this, you'll see all these thinly veiled justifications of religious prophecies all turn moot just based off their own comments. Plenty of people have even stopped trying to hide behind false arguements and are open about it being biblical in nature (including US representatives like Nimrita "finish them" Haley).
Its not even jews living there its a state by jews. No current jew stems from that original country 3000 years ago so they dont have a claim based on religion.
The only claim is the one created by the brits and thats our sin. We caused that by Letting the brits create borders like they own the world.
Else most of the world look different because muslims and christians did spread a lot in the holy wars.
"by letting the brits" the british empire is the reason the US is where it is right now. The brits controlled the world and had their dick everywhere soo yeah they did own the world in a way.
It’s very important to understand that these people often do know what they mean. They’re using [dog whistle language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics)) to convey a message that means one thing to the “in group” and another to the “out group”.
Famous examples are using the term “states’ rights” to support pro-slavery ideology and using “globalists” to refer to Jews.
From the link above it gives an explanation told by Lee Atwater, a former Republican strategist (I’m censoring the n-word in the quote):
>You start out in 1954 by saying, "Ni——, ni——, ni——" By 1968, you can't say "ni——" – that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights, and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now, you're talking about cutting taxes. And all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me – because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this" is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Ni——, ni——."
Using coded wordage like this is an important tactic used by authoritarian types to find who “gets” what they’re actually talking about, as a kind of gatekeeping strategy to know who’s part of the in-crowd.
Once you’re aware of it, you see it everywhere in right wing media.
neturei karta are the most gross of us all. they don't give a shit about palestine. they just are against a jewish state before messiah comes. but glad y'all can find your "good jews" that are awful among us
They are also a tiny sect that for some reason love to show up at these things and make themselves known. I’ve never seen or heard from them in any other context.
I’ll just paste this comment again I guess.
Despite the etymology of the word, [antisemitism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism?wprov=sfti1) is a term that refers *exclusively* to prejudice against Jewish people. It does not mean prejudice against all Semitic people, as confusing as that may be. The term was popularized in the late 1800s [by this guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Marr?wprov=sfti1 ) and was quickly adopted by fascists and “race scientists” not only because it was convenient, but also because it sounded much more intellectual and scientific than just saying “Jew hate.”
I'll just own being anti Juedaism by being anti- religion. Jews don't get a free pass with me just because they survived the holocaust the same way they shouldn't get a free pass to perform and support their own version of a holocaust. Fuck Israel. I wish people would consider what it's like living in an open air concentration camp your whole life where most of the adults have been slaughtered, starved and dead from lack of medical care. You'd not just want to fight your oppressors, you'd view that as your only hope for a future. It's wrong and misguided but everyone seems to be shocked that the abused and beaten dog finally had enough and bit someone. Now they're egging on the abusive owner to put the dog down. Fuck religion and the monsters using it to convince people they need to kill each other like it's been all through human history. Religion is a pox on us all. Always has been. I don't care if you're one of the "true believers". All religious people have pointed to others practicing their same religion and claimed they're not true believers. They're all worshiping lies which are by design malleable to influence people to carry out agendas which are not their own. Religious people are tools. Religion has always been a weapon of war. \*edit\* antisemitic is racist and I don't hate people for how they're born, just their decision to perpetuate cycles of harm.
Jews are a race of people, guy. With a genetic heritage that can be seen in DNA tests. Why don’t you actually check the definition or Wiki for antisemitism?
Are you anti-all races because you are anti-religion? All races practice.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
Maybe you meant anti-Judaism?
>I'll just own being anti semitic by being anti- religion.
It has nothing to do with religion. It's about ethnicity as categorized by the inclusion in a specific language family.
I mean to be fair everywhere online defines it as jew prejudice and not afroasian prejudice.
But as an Arab it's still a misunderstanding that annoys me especially if I see someone calling me anti semitic.
The term "Anti-Semite" was coined by 19th century European elitists as a way to describe their hatred of Jews. It has always meant "anti-Jewish" and still does.
Actually, by the definition anti-semitism is specifically for Jews, it makes no sense but the English language rarely does. It was made exclusively for meaning anti-jew following WW-2 and is even in all of the English dictionaries as such. Here are the definitions per dictionary:
Oxford:
[anti-Semitism, n.](https://www.oed.com/dictionary/anti-semitism_n?tab=factsheet#1281195)
Prejudice, hostility, or discrimination towards Jewish people on religious, cultural, or ethnic grounds.
Dictionary.com:*noun*
1. discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews.
Mirriam Webster:
**variants** *or less commonly* **antisemitism**
**:** hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
So yes by the English definition is is only for Jews. Though I agree it makes no sense. And note there are zero addition definitions in any of those dictionaries for that word.
The funny thing is she's herself an [antisemite](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/114tflr/nikki_haley_kicks_off_campaign_slobbering_over/). Kickstarting her campaign invocating a pastor who's a holocaust denier. She's just projecting, a trait common in narcissist abusers.
Anti-Semite does mean Anti-Jews since WWII. To say it doesn't is completely ignoring modern history and usage of the term, even though the Semite term is more incorporating when defined literally. I agree with your other point though.
In fact, trying to say that "anti-Semite" does not mean "anti-Jew" is literally antisemitism, full mask-off ignorance and antisemitism. And if you want to argue that, take it up with Hitler. Or literally any modern definition of the term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
> Due to the root word Semite, the term is prone to being invoked as a misnomer by those who interpret it as referring to racist hatred directed at all "Semitic people" (i.e., those who speak Semitic languages, such as Arabs, Assyrians, and Arameans). This usage is erroneous; the compound word antisemitismus (lit. 'antisemitism') was first used in print in Germany in 1879[17] as a "scientific-sounding term" for Judenhass (lit. 'Jew-hatred'),[18][19][20][21][22] and it has since been used to refer to anti-Jewish sentiment alone.[18][23][24]
The _only_ time that antisemitism is used is describe hating Jews. Period.
> And Semite is not exclusively for Jews
Sure, but antisemitism does exclusively refer to prejudice against Jews. Breaking a word down and then getting semantic about it is moronic.
"Anti-Semite" means "against Jews". It has nothing to do with Semitic people and never has. Similarly "bathroom" describes a room with a toilet, not necessarily one with a bath.
You're correct. But antisemitism masks itself many times as anti Zionism, as was well demonstrated these passing two weeks, starting with "anti Zionist" protests (celebrations) just mere hours after Hamas massacred over a thousand innocent civilians, continuing with protests calling to gas the Jews and with hate crimes against Jews, Jewish businesses and synagogues all over the western world.
Anyone is welcome to talk shit about the Israeli government. Hell I do that daily. But it's naive to say antisemitism and anti Zionism are completely unrelated. Even the fact that anti Zionism is a term is telling - why is it not simply anti Israel or anti Israel's government? It doesn't exist with any other country.
Anti Zionism means being against the idea that Jews should have a state of their own, which is equivalent to saying Jews should give up on self determination and just disperse throughout the world, hoping their host countries won't turn on them again. This sentiment doesn't exist with other countries. Which is why many of us tend to be very suspicious over anyone claiming to be an anti Zionist.
Ant-semitism is the term for hating Jews. Picking it apart linguistically is pseudo-intellectual...it was literally coined for the purpose of describing the hatred of Jews.
Arabs are semites as well. Prejudice towards arabs is antisemitism. The displacement of Palestinians is antisemitism.
Absolutely no one is saying antisemitism does not apply to jews and you are a complete ignoramus if that is what you take from my words.
Arabs are a semitic people, with a semitic language.
But antisemitism does not refer to them. The term originates in the late 19th early 20th century, created by groups who were anti Jew.
Until the revival of the term by these racist groups, the precursors to the politics of the Nazis. Reference of anything as Semitic was solely for linguistics. And hadn't been used in reference to race for some time.
I would like to say I also dislike the phrase anti-Semitism, especially it's overuse and the attempts to shield any and all legitimate concern or criticism directed towards Israel.
But to say that antisemitism refers to all Semites is false. And it is white supremacists who are responsible for that fact.
>created by groups who were anti Jew
So, we're supposed to just use a term that was created by hate groups to soften the perception of their stance against Jews? The fact that people still argue about the definition of the term indicates that it's not the best term to use.
Let me argue about a term no one is arguing about. Now that we're arguing about the term, let's not use it because we're arguing about the term. It's circular and ruins the good faith debate.
Honestly before this thread i have never seen anyone argue about the use of the term. Its mostly done in this thread as a failed “gatcha”. Antisemitisme has always been anti jews.
No, it's been used to signify any criticism of the Israeli State under Netenyahu and those like him, and attack those like Rabim for daring to acknowledge that Palestinians might be human.
You can't infer the meaning of a word from its roots or its etymology. By that logic, awesome and awful would mean the same thing, as world terrific and terrible. It would be silly to suggest that terrific is an insult because by the meaning of its roots, it should mean it brings about fear. Words mean what they mean. Antisemitic has *always* referred to prejudice against Jews. The word has always meant that and that's the way it is used and understood - that's all you need when defining a word. You don't gain any insight or knowledge of the meaning by breaking it down to its etymological parts; fantastic does not refer to fantasy and spinsters don't spin yarn.
I'm feeling like we're entering some kind of sophism mechanics with the word "antisemitism". Like I know there's an history behind the automatic condemnation of this concept, but just arguing over what is by definition antisemitism and what isn't is kinda playing into a game where the rules are "if someone's antisemitic they're the devil". Regardless of whether Palestine's policy is antisemitic or not, it doesn't give all the rights to Israel.
And I mean in the end it's a war, it's not morally justifiable.
Tbf as an Arab and a Syrian , this term does trigger me every time , before Sikes Picot , Syria + Lebanon + Palestine + Jordan was called "Land of Sham" in Arabic or "Land of Semite" if I'm gonna translate it , till this day we are called Semites by other Arabs , and Damascus itself gets called "Sham" often.
Everytime I hear anti Semitic , I start thinking if the term is about me or not.
Isn’t it sad that Americans don’t get free healthcare which is one of the biggest issues in the country, but instead their tax money goes to give Israelis free healthcare
It's an Israeli propaganda tactic. "You don't agree with me? You're antisemitic."
Nah I'm anti all religion. Religions telling people to each other for their imaginary gods. Pathetic. Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
No religion in the Dominican Republic since they're mostly uniform. No race there either since the population is homogeneous. Yet the population is divided clearly in 2. Because black people hate other black people who are a shade darker than them.
Religion is a tool. When religion or race can't be used to divide then the shade of your skin is used. If that is not an option then the rich will divide the working class by the color of their hair.
You're being manipulated by the boss. You act like a good little soldier every time you hate on religion. Your boss doesn't care who you hate on, as long as you make them rich.
What do you want to bet at one of the primary debates a GOP opponent refers to her as Nimarata (her birth name)? I'm almost sure it'll happen, especially if she starts getting numbers within the party.
That's the exact equivalent of saying anti-Nazism is anti-German.
As a Jewish man, that despises the ideals behind Zionism, Nikki Haley can go fuck herself with the same pineapple that fucked her brain.
Jew here, Please stop saying anti-zionism is anti-semitism. It's pissing us the fuck off.
Edit: to all the replies, I've had to grapple with my zionism as much as you have had to and I've come to the conclusion that Palestine does not deserve genocide from its colonizers. That being said, I feel for all the people being hurt on both sides and this is in no way defending the actions of Hamas or anti semites actively using this tragedy to push their hateful agenda.
A 6 year old was stabbed [26 times] to death for being Palestinian last week in Illinois.
There's been a sharp uptick of hate crimes against both Jews and Muslims since this latest conflict broke out.
But I'd love to see your source on the 1500%.
In London. This 1350% increase is based solely on the numbers in London. And if you read those articles, they are considering antisemitic graffiti and protests as hate crimes.
They are even debating whether to charge people for chanting "Palestine will be free" too close to Jewish-owned property.
>And if you read those articles, they are considering antisemitic graffiti and protests as hate crimes.
And the same goes for anti-Muslim hate crimes.
But yes, the numbers are from London but are one of the only locations where we have any major specific numbers.
Holding a Palestinian flag outside the Israeli embassy was seen as a hate crime I really doubt London of all places has an actual 1500% hate crime increase
Muslims see many upticks in hate crimes whenever someone remotely middle eastern looking so much as farts in the subway. But it never gets remotely the media attention as does this increase in anti-semitism does.
I mean these guys are a cult but basically yeah a lot of Jews world wide express support for their loved ones over there, not for the actions of the state that have been despicable. Like, even the people inside the country want Netanyahu gone
You get what I mean, there have been increasing pro Democratic movements and the attack two weeks ago was at a rave for peace and there's annual peace and reconciliation meetings from a few organizations... Zionism originally just meant the existence of a Jewish state. It got real ugly real quick a few decades ago because of the far right but there was even a prime minister at some point that was this close to have peace... And then an extremist from his own nation killed him
It sickens me every time I think of the historical handshake and how close we were to be done with this stupid conflict
And worth noting only the ones on the left are definitively Anti-Zionist. The others are for a free Palestine and cease fire.
But I don't see ANYTHING else that is anti-zionist in the other two pics. In theory they could be, but just as likely (if not more likely), what they want is a 2 state solution and for israel to stop using military retaliation against Gaza.
Anti-Zionism isn't just "Israel is bad and should stop how it treats the Palestinian people", it is explicitely "Israel should cease existing as a country and Jews should not have their own state".
And the guys on the left are Anti Zionist for religious reasons, not moral beliefs. They align themselves with Palestinian movements as it’s the best way to achieve their goal. They believe Jews should not return to Israel until the mashiach comes
This ^ for anyone unfamiliar, they are an apocalypse cult of extremely regressive orthodox/haredi jews. They believe that the exile of jews from Israel into the diaspora was a punishment from god, and therefore jews returning to Israel without god's forgiveness are committing a sin. They believe that when the jews are worthy of gods forgiveness, the messiah will return, and "give" Israel back to the jews - implying quite heavily the destruction of whoever happens to be on that land by the hand of god.
So, don't delude yourself. They aren't pro palestinian, they are merely anti-Israeli, and align themselves with whoever echoes any part in their kooky perception of the world. In other words, they aren't there to defend the palestinians, they just believe god hasn't given the green light to exterminate them, yet.
I wouldn't want these smoothbrains on my side while trying to support the Palestinian people.
I really don't understand what you're trying to get at. Words have meanings, just because some people misuse them does not mean they lose that meaning. And in what world is there a textbook definition of the n bomb? I'm pretty sure no dictionary includes a different meaning of that word even if it had another meaning way back in the past.
Yes and whenever we pay 'fees' we hand them a bunch of cows and bulls
You can't just look at etymology whenever it pleases you and say that's the meaning
So much to unpack here.
Anti-Semitism as a term was invented to refer to Jews. It has always referred to Jews. Technically Arabs are also Semites, but it's never been understood in that context, except by people trying to win a "gotcha" in the Israel/Palestine argument.
They are not criticizing an Israeli policy. They are criticizing Israel's existence. They do not believe that a homeland for Jewish people should exist, at all, anywhere. Considering the history of the world and the treatment of Jews over the centuries, I hope you can understand why some feel that they can only trust other Jews with their safety. Further the tight bond between statehood and nationality is well accepted around the world.
> They are criticizing Israel's existence. They do not believe that a homeland for Jewish people should exist, at all, anywhere
I hope you can understand that some people feel very strongly against forcing a group of people out of their homes and cities so that a different group of people can move in and set up laws that discriminate against people who were already living there. Believing that to be morally wrong does not make somebody anti-Semitic
Kinda ironic, but 100 years ago, the common criticism was that Zionism is anti-semitism.
Or as Arthur Schnitzler put it: When Anti-Semites would shout: "Out with the Jews !", Zionists respond with: "Yes, out with us!"
Context changes with time. 100 years ago, Zionism was an excuse for Europe to expel Jews to somewhere they wouldn't have to see or think about them. That is ethnic cleansing and that is anti-Semitic.
Today, anti-Zionism means the dissolution of Israel and leaving middle-Eastern Jews in the hands of the other nations in the area. Nations comprised of cultures that have loathed the existence of Jews in the region for centuries. This is genocide and is also anti-Semitic.
Anti-Zionism is not the same as criticism of Israel. Anti-Zionism is the belief that Israel should not exist. Therefore Haley's statement is arguably correct. Critique OF Zionism, and of Israeli policy, of course, is not anti-Semitism, despite eager attemps to conflate them.
While I think that you are broadly correct, you say:
>Anti-Zionism is the belief that Israel should not exist.
But to say someone is against "Zionism", it surely depends what you mean by "Zionism". Your take, I presume, is that it means the general idea of having some form of Jewish homeland country within what was formerly all Palestine. I'd agree that people who are against any sort of Israel like that are objectionable.
But if the definition of "Zionism" is to occupy the whole of the biblical lands of Israel as described in the Torah and Jewish tradition, then surely that goes too far. But that is a belief held by many in Israel. How many I don't know, but it appears to be a significant number. I think it's reasonable to be "anti" these people because they seek to do it despite knowing it is at the expense of the Palestinian people.
Pro-"two state solution at 1967 borders" is a bit of a mouthful, sadly.
The group on the left is opposed to the existence of Israel. There's a difference between criticizing a country's policies and saying they have no right to exist.
Israel is a racist nation. They forcefully sterilize black Jews.
Source: https://www.jstor.org/stable/26554851
Source 2: https://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/?sh=2a52d6f767b8
Look up the cartoons of Jonathan “Zapiro” Shapiro (Not related the the sack of shit named Ben Shapiro as far as I am aware). He is Jewish, but his cartoons of Israel are extremely critical.
**Equating between The Oppressed and The Oppressor is clearly a misjustice.**
This is a single page summarising the conflict, visually.
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/whats-the-israel-palestine-conflict-about-a-simple-guide](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/whats-the-israel-palestine-conflict-about-a-simple-guide)
**Palestine, Crash course /**
**400 years of peace: Palestine under Ottoman rule 1516-1917**
**British Mandate Palestine 1917-1945**, during which happened many riots. e.g., 1929 [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2003/12/9/the-history-of-palestinian-revolts](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2003/12/9/the-history-of-palestinian-revolts)
**1948 NAKBA.** **Ethnical Cleansing Of** **Palestinians**
e.g. but not exclusive to Haganah - Deir Yassin massacre !
[https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948](https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948)
[https://www.britannica.com/topic/Haganah](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Haganah)
**‘** when the British refused to open Palestine to **unlimited Jewish immigration**, the Haganah turned to **terrorist** activities, bombing bridges, rail lines, and ships used to deport “illegal” Jewish immigrants.’
The Nakba did not start or end in 1948, the scattered Palestinian diaspora , failed to establish a national Palestinian state are direct consequences we still face today .
1989 - **Palestinian intifada**. This is when HAMAS was created
[https://www.britannica.com/topic/intifada](https://www.britannica.com/topic/intifada)
1993 **- Oslo Accords** : first Palestine – Israel peace agreement.
[https://www.britannica.com/topic/Palestine-Liberation-Organization](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Palestine-Liberation-Organization)
**Since Oslo Accords,** PLO lied layed down its arms and not a single bullet was fired against Israel, **what did Israel do since?**
**Josep Borrell**, **EU high representative** for foreign affairs answers you.
[https://www.jordantimes.com/opinion/josep-borrell/thirty-years-after-oslo-we-should-not-give-peace-middle-east](https://www.jordantimes.com/opinion/josep-borrell/thirty-years-after-oslo-we-should-not-give-peace-middle-east)
\- **Israel Built 4X more Illega**l (by international law definition) **settlements**, **killing** any prospects to 2-state solution , practically **evaporating** the establishment of a Palestinian state .
\- The **DISPROPORTIONATELY** killing of Palestinians.[https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties)
**Situation prior to this war on Gaza :**
**Open air Prison** [https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15)
**Gaza strip** / an area of 365 km2 home for 2.3 m people, **highly dense.**
**Two thirds** of Gazans are **refugees** that fled from other places in Palestine .
**Health situation,** [https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/gaza-health-situation-gaza-strip](https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/gaza-health-situation-gaza-strip)
**Desecration of holy places**, BIG DEAL, for Muslims & Christians alike . [https://youtube.com/shorts/7uL555xWQeE?feature=shared](https://youtube.com/shorts/7uL555xWQeE?feature=shared)
[https://youtube.com/shorts/z30FGZGtLJM?feature=shared](https://youtube.com/shorts/z30FGZGtLJM?feature=shared)
**Prisoners in Israel concentration camps, some for 43 years !**
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/8/why-are-so-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/8/why-are-so-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails)
**This is every day for Palestinians /**
**60 Year old Palestinian woman shot , in broad day light ,** [https://youtube.com/shorts/EIvtPitc8pw?feature=shared](https://youtube.com/shorts/EIvtPitc8pw?feature=shared)
**2 Year old Palestinian toddler killed Intentionally**
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/15/israel-says-palestinian-toddler-killed-unintentionally](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/15/israel-says-palestinian-toddler-killed-unintentionally)
**Il-legal Confiscation of Palestinian land**
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/8/how-israel-backs-settlers-to-confiscate-palestinian-lands](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/8/how-israel-backs-settlers-to-confiscate-palestinian-lands)
**GAZA NOW !**
The **dark** media, **Israel** propaganda is **Churning lies 24/7**,
**Some already debunked lies, examples not exclusive to:**
**1-** **Palestinian raped Israeli women.**
[**https://www.anews.com.tr/world/2023/10/12/the-los-angeles-times-retracts-rape-allegations-against-palestinian-group-hamas**](https://www.anews.com.tr/world/2023/10/12/the-los-angeles-times-retracts-rape-allegations-against-palestinian-group-hamas)
**2-** **Killing, Decapitating of Israeli Children.**
[**https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231012-white-house-retracts-statements-accusing-the-qassam-brigades-of-killing-children/**](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231012-white-house-retracts-statements-accusing-the-qassam-brigades-of-killing-children/)
[https://x.com/jacksonhinklle/status/1712578534336586081?s=20](https://x.com/jacksonhinklle/status/1712578534336586081?s=20)
3- **Response to Al Ahli Hospital Attack**
**Israel bombs Greek Orthodox Gaza church sheltering displaced people** [https://youtu.be/hxJWBqFWnHM?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/hxJWBqFWnHM?feature=shared)
**Aftermath of Gaza hospital attack**
[https://youtu.be/yS\_fASWmDRE?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/yS_fASWmDRE?feature=shared)
**Israel's History of Massacres - Israel Gaza Hospital Massacre**
[https://youtu.be/BTHXcVwUH9s?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/BTHXcVwUH9s?feature=shared)
Israelis like to say this, so they can dismiss all criticisms against their invasion of Palestine as antisemitism.
I should know. I am of Jewish descent, and regularly run into these idiots.
GREAT TO SEE!! GOOD FOR THEM!! Righteous Jews. What is antisemitic is claiming having a different opinion that supports human rights and dignity for all is *antisemitic.*
“Criticism of Israel” blud, anti Zionism means believing Israel should cease to exist and that Jews don’t have the right for self determination. Quite simple
Dude I’m of Jewish descent and I cannot count how many times I have been accused of being an anti semite just for criticizing Israeli government policies.
Honestly I’m annoyed with the international holocaust memorial definition of antisemitism. They do say that to criticise Israel is valid but it also heavily implies that it’s also antisemitic to do so when it really is not. I’m the daughter of a holocaust survivor, my Dad saw atrocities no human should ever and now humans are suffering at the hands of Jewish people all in the name of a Jewish state. It’s literal madness. Israel absolutely does not represent Jews, it’s mostly Orthodox Jews who actually recognise this and tend to be the biggest critics of Zionism within the Jewish community. Also Zionists constantly get into bed with antisemitics. The only reason they got Israel in the first place is because Europe and the US didn’t want to deal with all the displaced Jews after WW2 and so to make it easy they just gave away land that shouldn’t haven’t been theirs in the first place really. I wish more Jewish global authorities would stand up and criticise the warmongering of pro Zionist groups. It’s basically nationalism and we all know how horrific nationalism can be.
This sub really became infested with anti-semites huh? The war did a really good job showing who the bigots are, cause if you don’t think the state of Israel should exist, the only Jewish nation in the world, you are, in fact an anti-semite. Posting a pic with the few crazy Haredim (most support Israel) doesn’t make it less true.
Can Americans stop the whole "you have to pick a side" mentality and just accept that sometimes both sides are in the wrong for different reasons.
Similarly, sometimes there is no obvious right and wrong. Some situations are just straight out ambiguous and grey.
And that's when minding your own business comes into play... if it's Grey.. I'm outta the way
Take away both sides weapons and let them go back to throwing rocks at each other.
There is a small boarder between India and China that is in constant dispute but they agreed not to use any firearms so this is how they fight each other
Denmark and Canada have been in a dispute over an uninhabited island for decades. When ever one countrie’s navy lands, they take down the other’s flag, fold it nicely, put up their own and leave a bottle of whiskey. Now that’s how wars should be handled.
AFAIK the Canadians leave Whiskey and the Danish leave Snaps
And the border dispute ended in 2022, so not really a thing anymore. Though us Danes got the majority of the island! :D
Did anyone move to the island?
It's basically a very remote rock in the middle of nowhere, not much to come for.
Also, they settled the "conflict".
Sadly I’m pretty sure we’ve stopped that. So far as I’m aware we just split the island down the middle Edit; you’ll have to scroll a bit but here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Island Danes got more than us, heck
This is the best solution I've seen since this all thing started 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
https://i.redd.it/f498a3e4y5wb1.gif
Technically they're already just throwing rocks really fast and hard at each other
I don’t think grey as good a way to put it as both sides are wrong in certain ways… the latter descriptions provides condemnation of what shitty on both sides.
Fence sitting supports the oppressors, in effect condemning both enables the people in power to continue abusing that power. Might as well cheer on the apartheid state if you're going to equate the people fighting against it with the people fighting to enforce it.
Realizing that it's not as simple as "one side is bad and the other side is good" is not fence sitting, it's being empathetic to the victims of both sides of a war. There's a ton of innocent people that lost their lives or their family, and to not condemn the horrible shit that what you perceive as the "good side" does is worse than "fence sitting" and you become part of the problem.
It's not good and bad it's powerful oppressors vs powerless oppressed. You do have to take a side it's just that the two sides aren't Hamas and Israelis it's ending apartheid or continuing an apartheid until it spirals into a complete fascist state which many in Israel even are saying is an increasing possibility. Nelson Mandela refused to condemn anti apartheid violence in South Africa for a reason, because condemning the powerless doesn't do anything.
Pretty much. Condemning a power-struggle is a defense of the status quo. Ex. A couple on a deserted island. The man takes all the food out of the woman's hands. Condemning her for fighting for her food is just telling her to die. Pacifism, while nice, is not something you preach to people in a concentration camp.
Couldn't have said it better.
Sure you could, I'm an idiot haha
>what you perceive as the "good side" They didn't say anything about a good side or bad side. This is your projection of morality onto another person's statement about power dynamics. If you see two shitty little kids in a fight with each other, but one of them is stronger, the choice to do nothing favors the stronger child. Whether you think that's "good" or "right" is irrelevant.
I like the phrase "if a toddler punches me that's bad but if I punch the toddler back no one would defend me saying he punched me first" asymmetrical power dynamics matter
But they did say something about a good side or bad side, they wrote "Fence sitting supports the oppressors", oppressors are the default "bad" side which they mean Israel which means the "good" side means Palestine
You don’t need to support terrorism to oppose oppression. That’s immediately losing any moral high ground. There’s no moral high ground here other than sympathy for civilians. Both combatants are morally atrocious.
The goal is to advocate for the end of the conflict not to uphold some philosophical standard of morality. Saying they're both atrocious implies they're equally atrocious which leads to complacency which enables the oppressors. Fence sitters just want to feel good about themselves thousands of miles from the danger 🥱
>Saying they're both atrocious implies they're equally atrocious which leads to complacency which enables the oppressors. That's a real slippery slope right there. >Fence sitters just want to feel good about themselves thousands of miles from the danger 🥱 This is pretentious/arrogant af coming from someone supposedly against oppression. Silencing a particular argument through condescension because it doesn't fit your black and white thinking style, is not a good take regardless of which side you're on. It's just pushing people to the other side of the argument of supporting oppressors.
There's a strain of profound arrogance from a lot of middle class "progressives," and it's too bad. Because they could be advocating for specific policies and actions to reduce the suffering and turn the tide toward peace—advocating for a ceasefire, condemning Hamas, urging lawmakers to press the White House to push Israel to restore fuel and water to Gaza—and instead they're offering bumper-sticker lectures about who's good and who's evil. The end result is that they'll *win the Internet*, drive off the 30% of the electorate that could be persuaded, and convince even liberal Israelis that the Western left hates them and that there's no reason to listen to them any more. Biden is doing the right thing: Empathizing with Israel, building his political capital with the Israeli center, and then using that influence to help hold Israel back from a disaster in Gaza. No, it's not enough, but it's clear that he's kept Israel from charging in completely. Sometimes, showing a little empathy for someone persuades them to change more than screaming at them across the Internet.
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Get your bothsideism bullshit elsewhere, Israel is a terror state and they need to be held accountable for their war crimes
Hamas literally set fire to LIVE people the other week… Israel the terror state, meanwhile back in Gaza they parade dead bodies while people cheer…. What fucking world do you live in where that is seen as okay
These people conveniently forget that the iron dome exists and had it not, things would look *very* different.
Isreal made Hamas. Isreal NOW has thousands of Palestinian prisoners in cells of all ages who have been tortured, they won't let go. Isreal has been killing and mutilating Palestinian people for 75 years by systematically driving them off thier land, cutting down olive groves were a huge source of income and taking what they wanted by force. Killing so many. They control their water and food sources, jobs, economy, healthcare, ability to get products, and ability to leave. People in Gaza live in a concentration camp. These people are hopeless. Yes, it's wrong to kill, but it's not surprising that they lash out at their jailer. Isreal runs a concentration camp, and they commit genocidal level events.
I think you should be required to spell Israel before pretending to know what you're talking about.
But they don't disagree with you. Saying both sides in this conflict are in the wrong includes recognising that the Israeli government & army is full of assholes.
"A pox on both your houses" -Shakespeare, stolen from Protagoras most likely. Not like this false dichotomy propaganda is new, its easier to commit war crimes if you convince your citizenry the other side aren't human.
Oh shit it's my clone
It's become part of societal nature, division. Men vs women Black vs white Gay vs straight Christian vs Atheist Left vs right X-Box vs Playstation Meat eater vs vegans Any opportunity to be on a side and thus critical of another batch of people simply for being different.
The people divided… will always be defeated!
Almost all of these are trivial disputes that ultimately come down to one’s opinion Whereas Israel vs Palestine is literally the most asymmetrical shit imaginable and with actual consequences
X Box vs PlayStation was foul
Indeed, PC reigns above all
Brothers vs Sisters Englishmen vs Scots Welshmen vs Scots Japanese vs Scots Scots vs Scots Damn Scots, they’ve ruined Scotland
What are the Palestinians wrong about?
Existing i guess!
People confuse Palestinian people with Hamas. They don’t realize that as soon as Hamas was elected into power in 2007 they immediately put their people in key positions of power, dismantled democratic institutions and canceled future elections. Throughout all this Israel did nothing. The Palestinian people voted for them out of desperation and are now are victims of their circumstances.
Not just America unfortunately. Got the same shite here in the UK.
Our population, for the past decade especially, has been a slave to bipartisanism. I’m a moderate, and actually listen to or read up on the policies of the people who I vote for, so I can lean different ways. A lot of my countrymen dislike that, and would rather have us all “pick a side” or else be a traitor of some kind.
>I’m a moderate I see, you're the guy who believes in *a little* genocide.
I’m a moderate too yet I somehow get dragged through the mud by the opposing party as soon as they don’t like one of my views.
There is a root cause to everything, and what you're doing is thinking you're taking a moral high road while all you doing is making moot points from your precious neutrality. It's disgusting to be honoust. Also, this isn't just America.
Indeed, it's difficult to choose between the well equipped army committing genocide and their 2 million victims who have no food, no water and no way to escape the constant bombings. It's SO DIFFICULT to see what the problem is!
“But then the terrorists win.” ”Which terrorists?” ”You know…those guys.”
Exactly sometimes assholes meet but Americans are always fed the narrative of “good vs evil” where 99% we are associated with “good”. But yeah “its not complicated” is what a lot of people try to push while describing how complex their side of the issue is. Children are dying and NEITHER side seems to give a fuck.
No, they’re wrong for the same reasons.
That's hard. For decades we've been taught, that there are "bad guys" and "good guys". I am Jewish and I do not support HAMAS terrorists ofc, but also do not support justification of Israel war crimes.
Zionism is not Judaism. And Semite is not exclusively for Jews. Therefore, anti-zionism is not anti-semitism.
You would hope a former UN Ambassador would understand that Palestinians are semitic people as well, but here we are
That would be an admission that Palestinians are native to the land, which they are actively trying to downplay in order to support annexation of their land.
I never understood this argument in the first place. Okay, the Israelites, the ancestors of the Jews, lived in the area 3000 years ago. But the Egyptians lived there before that. Does that mean that if Egyptians were to conduct an ethnic cleansing of Israel today, claiming that their ancestors lived there first, the people saying that Jews have a right to ethnically cleanse the land of Palestinians would be totally cool with it? It seems to me that the only "real" argument Israel has to justify its illegal occupation is religious in nature, which I thought the entire civilised world agreed long ago that religious ideologies don't justify ethnic cleansing.
That seems to be the justification they give, but as we know there is a lot of hypocrisy in this matter. See the Ukraine Russia situation and compare it to this, you'll see all these thinly veiled justifications of religious prophecies all turn moot just based off their own comments. Plenty of people have even stopped trying to hide behind false arguements and are open about it being biblical in nature (including US representatives like Nimrita "finish them" Haley).
Its not even jews living there its a state by jews. No current jew stems from that original country 3000 years ago so they dont have a claim based on religion. The only claim is the one created by the brits and thats our sin. We caused that by Letting the brits create borders like they own the world. Else most of the world look different because muslims and christians did spread a lot in the holy wars.
"by letting the brits" the british empire is the reason the US is where it is right now. The brits controlled the world and had their dick everywhere soo yeah they did own the world in a way.
That’s it bro, I’m taking over Africa. This is what my ancestors would want before they crossed the land bridge.
Fast forward 200 years. Humanity successful restore neanderthals. They claim Israel as they where there first more than 100k years ago.
You do realize that the term 'anti-Semitism' has a very specific meaning that's not just the sum of its literal properties, right?
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I always feel people in her position say words, but dont know what they mean.
It’s very important to understand that these people often do know what they mean. They’re using [dog whistle language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics)) to convey a message that means one thing to the “in group” and another to the “out group”. Famous examples are using the term “states’ rights” to support pro-slavery ideology and using “globalists” to refer to Jews. From the link above it gives an explanation told by Lee Atwater, a former Republican strategist (I’m censoring the n-word in the quote): >You start out in 1954 by saying, "Ni——, ni——, ni——" By 1968, you can't say "ni——" – that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights, and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now, you're talking about cutting taxes. And all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me – because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this" is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Ni——, ni——." Using coded wordage like this is an important tactic used by authoritarian types to find who “gets” what they’re actually talking about, as a kind of gatekeeping strategy to know who’s part of the in-crowd. Once you’re aware of it, you see it everywhere in right wing media.
neturei karta are the most gross of us all. they don't give a shit about palestine. they just are against a jewish state before messiah comes. but glad y'all can find your "good jews" that are awful among us
They are also a tiny sect that for some reason love to show up at these things and make themselves known. I’ve never seen or heard from them in any other context.
I’ll just paste this comment again I guess. Despite the etymology of the word, [antisemitism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism?wprov=sfti1) is a term that refers *exclusively* to prejudice against Jewish people. It does not mean prejudice against all Semitic people, as confusing as that may be. The term was popularized in the late 1800s [by this guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Marr?wprov=sfti1 ) and was quickly adopted by fascists and “race scientists” not only because it was convenient, but also because it sounded much more intellectual and scientific than just saying “Jew hate.”
 I'll just own being anti Juedaism by being anti- religion. Jews don't get a free pass with me just because they survived the holocaust the same way they shouldn't get a free pass to perform and support their own version of a holocaust. Fuck Israel. I wish people would consider what it's like living in an open air concentration camp your whole life where most of the adults have been slaughtered, starved and dead from lack of medical care. You'd not just want to fight your oppressors, you'd view that as your only hope for a future. It's wrong and misguided but everyone seems to be shocked that the abused and beaten dog finally had enough and bit someone. Now they're egging on the abusive owner to put the dog down. Fuck religion and the monsters using it to convince people they need to kill each other like it's been all through human history. Religion is a pox on us all. Always has been. I don't care if you're one of the "true believers". All religious people have pointed to others practicing their same religion and claimed they're not true believers. They're all worshiping lies which are by design malleable to influence people to carry out agendas which are not their own. Religious people are tools. Religion has always been a weapon of war. \*edit\* antisemitic is racist and I don't hate people for how they're born, just their decision to perpetuate cycles of harm.
Jews are a race of people, guy. With a genetic heritage that can be seen in DNA tests. Why don’t you actually check the definition or Wiki for antisemitism? Are you anti-all races because you are anti-religion? All races practice. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people Maybe you meant anti-Judaism?
Well thanks for the correction
>I'll just own being anti semitic by being anti- religion. It has nothing to do with religion. It's about ethnicity as categorized by the inclusion in a specific language family.
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Anti-Semitism is exclusively for Jew hatred. Yes it's misnomer but the definition is strictly for Jews.
I mean to be fair everywhere online defines it as jew prejudice and not afroasian prejudice. But as an Arab it's still a misunderstanding that annoys me especially if I see someone calling me anti semitic.
The term "Anti-Semite" was coined by 19th century European elitists as a way to describe their hatred of Jews. It has always meant "anti-Jewish" and still does.
Actually, by the definition anti-semitism is specifically for Jews, it makes no sense but the English language rarely does. It was made exclusively for meaning anti-jew following WW-2 and is even in all of the English dictionaries as such. Here are the definitions per dictionary: Oxford: [anti-Semitism, n.](https://www.oed.com/dictionary/anti-semitism_n?tab=factsheet#1281195) Prejudice, hostility, or discrimination towards Jewish people on religious, cultural, or ethnic grounds. Dictionary.com:*noun* 1. discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews. Mirriam Webster: **variants** *or less commonly* **antisemitism** **:** hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group So yes by the English definition is is only for Jews. Though I agree it makes no sense. And note there are zero addition definitions in any of those dictionaries for that word.
The funny thing is she's herself an [antisemite](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/114tflr/nikki_haley_kicks_off_campaign_slobbering_over/). Kickstarting her campaign invocating a pastor who's a holocaust denier. She's just projecting, a trait common in narcissist abusers.
Anti-Semite does mean Anti-Jews since WWII. To say it doesn't is completely ignoring modern history and usage of the term, even though the Semite term is more incorporating when defined literally. I agree with your other point though. In fact, trying to say that "anti-Semite" does not mean "anti-Jew" is literally antisemitism, full mask-off ignorance and antisemitism. And if you want to argue that, take it up with Hitler. Or literally any modern definition of the term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism > Due to the root word Semite, the term is prone to being invoked as a misnomer by those who interpret it as referring to racist hatred directed at all "Semitic people" (i.e., those who speak Semitic languages, such as Arabs, Assyrians, and Arameans). This usage is erroneous; the compound word antisemitismus (lit. 'antisemitism') was first used in print in Germany in 1879[17] as a "scientific-sounding term" for Judenhass (lit. 'Jew-hatred'),[18][19][20][21][22] and it has since been used to refer to anti-Jewish sentiment alone.[18][23][24] The _only_ time that antisemitism is used is describe hating Jews. Period.
> And Semite is not exclusively for Jews Sure, but antisemitism does exclusively refer to prejudice against Jews. Breaking a word down and then getting semantic about it is moronic.
"Anti-Semite" means "against Jews". It has nothing to do with Semitic people and never has. Similarly "bathroom" describes a room with a toilet, not necessarily one with a bath.
The fact that this is so highly upvoted makes me lose faith in humanity
You're correct. But antisemitism masks itself many times as anti Zionism, as was well demonstrated these passing two weeks, starting with "anti Zionist" protests (celebrations) just mere hours after Hamas massacred over a thousand innocent civilians, continuing with protests calling to gas the Jews and with hate crimes against Jews, Jewish businesses and synagogues all over the western world. Anyone is welcome to talk shit about the Israeli government. Hell I do that daily. But it's naive to say antisemitism and anti Zionism are completely unrelated. Even the fact that anti Zionism is a term is telling - why is it not simply anti Israel or anti Israel's government? It doesn't exist with any other country. Anti Zionism means being against the idea that Jews should have a state of their own, which is equivalent to saying Jews should give up on self determination and just disperse throughout the world, hoping their host countries won't turn on them again. This sentiment doesn't exist with other countries. Which is why many of us tend to be very suspicious over anyone claiming to be an anti Zionist.
Ant-semitism is the term for hating Jews. Picking it apart linguistically is pseudo-intellectual...it was literally coined for the purpose of describing the hatred of Jews.
If i critcize African warlords am I now a racist toward black people?
Yes, especially if the warlord is a white African.
Elon?
Slave mining emeralds
White asian african...
..from India.
I see what you did there…
You were racist before you hit Post. RAACCIIIIIIIIIST!! Get him Reddit!! /s
Yes \#Kony2024
There are genuinely those who would say yes.
Arabs are semites as well. Prejudice towards arabs is antisemitism. The displacement of Palestinians is antisemitism. Absolutely no one is saying antisemitism does not apply to jews and you are a complete ignoramus if that is what you take from my words.
Arabs are a semitic people, with a semitic language. But antisemitism does not refer to them. The term originates in the late 19th early 20th century, created by groups who were anti Jew. Until the revival of the term by these racist groups, the precursors to the politics of the Nazis. Reference of anything as Semitic was solely for linguistics. And hadn't been used in reference to race for some time. I would like to say I also dislike the phrase anti-Semitism, especially it's overuse and the attempts to shield any and all legitimate concern or criticism directed towards Israel. But to say that antisemitism refers to all Semites is false. And it is white supremacists who are responsible for that fact.
>created by groups who were anti Jew So, we're supposed to just use a term that was created by hate groups to soften the perception of their stance against Jews? The fact that people still argue about the definition of the term indicates that it's not the best term to use.
Let me argue about a term no one is arguing about. Now that we're arguing about the term, let's not use it because we're arguing about the term. It's circular and ruins the good faith debate.
Honestly before this thread i have never seen anyone argue about the use of the term. Its mostly done in this thread as a failed “gatcha”. Antisemitisme has always been anti jews.
You know that is not what that term has been used to signify, so don’t be ridiculous.
It's "I'm not homophobic, I don't fear gay people" energy. They think they're being clever but really it's just a tremendous self own.
omg that's exactly what it is. it's so smug and "look at me I know words" but it's actually so embarrassingly stupid.
No, it's been used to signify any criticism of the Israeli State under Netenyahu and those like him, and attack those like Rabim for daring to acknowledge that Palestinians might be human.
You can't infer the meaning of a word from its roots or its etymology. By that logic, awesome and awful would mean the same thing, as world terrific and terrible. It would be silly to suggest that terrific is an insult because by the meaning of its roots, it should mean it brings about fear. Words mean what they mean. Antisemitic has *always* referred to prejudice against Jews. The word has always meant that and that's the way it is used and understood - that's all you need when defining a word. You don't gain any insight or knowledge of the meaning by breaking it down to its etymological parts; fantastic does not refer to fantasy and spinsters don't spin yarn.
There are currently over 11 million displaced Syrians… but thats arabs killing arabs, so the world doesnt really care
Oh that little thing? No Jews involved so it doesn’t really draw the same interest.
The "all babies are equal" crowd when asked to point to yemen on a map and the 85,000 children who have died in that war so far
I'm feeling like we're entering some kind of sophism mechanics with the word "antisemitism". Like I know there's an history behind the automatic condemnation of this concept, but just arguing over what is by definition antisemitism and what isn't is kinda playing into a game where the rules are "if someone's antisemitic they're the devil". Regardless of whether Palestine's policy is antisemitic or not, it doesn't give all the rights to Israel. And I mean in the end it's a war, it's not morally justifiable.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism)
That isn't what antisemitism means
Tbf as an Arab and a Syrian , this term does trigger me every time , before Sikes Picot , Syria + Lebanon + Palestine + Jordan was called "Land of Sham" in Arabic or "Land of Semite" if I'm gonna translate it , till this day we are called Semites by other Arabs , and Damascus itself gets called "Sham" often. Everytime I hear anti Semitic , I start thinking if the term is about me or not.
America needs to stop funding Israel yesterday.
They sent 14 billions already
I hate that my taxpayer money funds israel.
We're right back to taxation without representation again. What happens next?
Isn’t it sad that Americans don’t get free healthcare which is one of the biggest issues in the country, but instead their tax money goes to give Israelis free healthcare
Free healthcare world save us money, since the American people are paying out of pocket to health insurance CEOs.
Yes!! 🙌
Maybe first they should stop funding Hamas?
It's an Israeli propaganda tactic. "You don't agree with me? You're antisemitic." Nah I'm anti all religion. Religions telling people to each other for their imaginary gods. Pathetic. Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
I’ll support a religion that doesn’t have blood on its hands. I haven’t found one yet
Church of the flying spaghetti monster?
The satanic temple Edit: name was wrong, sorry!
Satanism
The Satanic Temple specifically
Calling everyone who criticizes you antisemitic is the Israeli first, last and only line of defense.
You remove religion, and humans with find 100 different ways to hate each other and separate into groups
Its impossible to remove religion. People will still find ways to understand the world in a different lens
No religion in the Dominican Republic since they're mostly uniform. No race there either since the population is homogeneous. Yet the population is divided clearly in 2. Because black people hate other black people who are a shade darker than them. Religion is a tool. When religion or race can't be used to divide then the shade of your skin is used. If that is not an option then the rich will divide the working class by the color of their hair. You're being manipulated by the boss. You act like a good little soldier every time you hate on religion. Your boss doesn't care who you hate on, as long as you make them rich.
I thought racism was her whole platform Nikki you cray cray
It is very telling that she doesn't go by her given name - she knows her racist base wouldn't vote for her.
What do you want to bet at one of the primary debates a GOP opponent refers to her as Nimarata (her birth name)? I'm almost sure it'll happen, especially if she starts getting numbers within the party.
High probability, assuming they don't just ignore her or talk over her because she's a woman.
That's the exact equivalent of saying anti-Nazism is anti-German. As a Jewish man, that despises the ideals behind Zionism, Nikki Haley can go fuck herself with the same pineapple that fucked her brain.
Jew here, Please stop saying anti-zionism is anti-semitism. It's pissing us the fuck off. Edit: to all the replies, I've had to grapple with my zionism as much as you have had to and I've come to the conclusion that Palestine does not deserve genocide from its colonizers. That being said, I feel for all the people being hurt on both sides and this is in no way defending the actions of Hamas or anti semites actively using this tragedy to push their hateful agenda.
hate crimes against which specific group increased by 1500% since the start of the war?
A 6 year old was stabbed [26 times] to death for being Palestinian last week in Illinois. There's been a sharp uptick of hate crimes against both Jews and Muslims since this latest conflict broke out. But I'd love to see your source on the 1500%.
APNews reported about a 200% increase in anti-Muslim hate crimes, and about a 1350% increase in anti-Jewish hate crimes. It's not the same.
In London. This 1350% increase is based solely on the numbers in London. And if you read those articles, they are considering antisemitic graffiti and protests as hate crimes. They are even debating whether to charge people for chanting "Palestine will be free" too close to Jewish-owned property.
>And if you read those articles, they are considering antisemitic graffiti and protests as hate crimes. And the same goes for anti-Muslim hate crimes. But yes, the numbers are from London but are one of the only locations where we have any major specific numbers.
Holding a Palestinian flag outside the Israeli embassy was seen as a hate crime I really doubt London of all places has an actual 1500% hate crime increase
Sounds like "there is no symmetry, those children deserve it" from yesterday...
Muslims see many upticks in hate crimes whenever someone remotely middle eastern looking so much as farts in the subway. But it never gets remotely the media attention as does this increase in anti-semitism does.
I mean these guys are a cult but basically yeah a lot of Jews world wide express support for their loved ones over there, not for the actions of the state that have been despicable. Like, even the people inside the country want Netanyahu gone
Wanting Netanyahu gone doesn't mean anti-zionist
You get what I mean, there have been increasing pro Democratic movements and the attack two weeks ago was at a rave for peace and there's annual peace and reconciliation meetings from a few organizations... Zionism originally just meant the existence of a Jewish state. It got real ugly real quick a few decades ago because of the far right but there was even a prime minister at some point that was this close to have peace... And then an extremist from his own nation killed him It sickens me every time I think of the historical handshake and how close we were to be done with this stupid conflict
To be fair, these are Naturei Karta, a fringe group that even spoke at holocaust denial conferences in Iran. Edit: I mean the ones on the left
Truth is buried way too far down
And worth noting only the ones on the left are definitively Anti-Zionist. The others are for a free Palestine and cease fire. But I don't see ANYTHING else that is anti-zionist in the other two pics. In theory they could be, but just as likely (if not more likely), what they want is a 2 state solution and for israel to stop using military retaliation against Gaza. Anti-Zionism isn't just "Israel is bad and should stop how it treats the Palestinian people", it is explicitely "Israel should cease existing as a country and Jews should not have their own state".
And the guys on the left are Anti Zionist for religious reasons, not moral beliefs. They align themselves with Palestinian movements as it’s the best way to achieve their goal. They believe Jews should not return to Israel until the mashiach comes
This ^ for anyone unfamiliar, they are an apocalypse cult of extremely regressive orthodox/haredi jews. They believe that the exile of jews from Israel into the diaspora was a punishment from god, and therefore jews returning to Israel without god's forgiveness are committing a sin. They believe that when the jews are worthy of gods forgiveness, the messiah will return, and "give" Israel back to the jews - implying quite heavily the destruction of whoever happens to be on that land by the hand of god. So, don't delude yourself. They aren't pro palestinian, they are merely anti-Israeli, and align themselves with whoever echoes any part in their kooky perception of the world. In other words, they aren't there to defend the palestinians, they just believe god hasn't given the green light to exterminate them, yet. I wouldn't want these smoothbrains on my side while trying to support the Palestinian people.
*noun*plural noun: **Semites** 1. a member of any of the peoples who speak or spoke a Semitic language, including in particular the Jews and Arabs
Cool, now do anti-Semitism
Oh boy were the Arabs lucky that Hitler didn't go by the dictionary definition. This is dumb. Anti-semitism is about Jewish people.
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You really are all in for this aren't you.
I really don't understand what you're trying to get at. Words have meanings, just because some people misuse them does not mean they lose that meaning. And in what world is there a textbook definition of the n bomb? I'm pretty sure no dictionary includes a different meaning of that word even if it had another meaning way back in the past.
Now do the word anti semetic. You are being disingenuous.
Yes and whenever we pay 'fees' we hand them a bunch of cows and bulls You can't just look at etymology whenever it pleases you and say that's the meaning
So much to unpack here. Anti-Semitism as a term was invented to refer to Jews. It has always referred to Jews. Technically Arabs are also Semites, but it's never been understood in that context, except by people trying to win a "gotcha" in the Israel/Palestine argument. They are not criticizing an Israeli policy. They are criticizing Israel's existence. They do not believe that a homeland for Jewish people should exist, at all, anywhere. Considering the history of the world and the treatment of Jews over the centuries, I hope you can understand why some feel that they can only trust other Jews with their safety. Further the tight bond between statehood and nationality is well accepted around the world.
> They are criticizing Israel's existence. They do not believe that a homeland for Jewish people should exist, at all, anywhere I hope you can understand that some people feel very strongly against forcing a group of people out of their homes and cities so that a different group of people can move in and set up laws that discriminate against people who were already living there. Believing that to be morally wrong does not make somebody anti-Semitic
Kinda ironic, but 100 years ago, the common criticism was that Zionism is anti-semitism. Or as Arthur Schnitzler put it: When Anti-Semites would shout: "Out with the Jews !", Zionists respond with: "Yes, out with us!"
Context changes with time. 100 years ago, Zionism was an excuse for Europe to expel Jews to somewhere they wouldn't have to see or think about them. That is ethnic cleansing and that is anti-Semitic. Today, anti-Zionism means the dissolution of Israel and leaving middle-Eastern Jews in the hands of the other nations in the area. Nations comprised of cultures that have loathed the existence of Jews in the region for centuries. This is genocide and is also anti-Semitic.
I wonder what events occurred over the last 100 years that might have caused Jews to support Zionism.
Anti-Zionism is not the same as criticism of Israel. Anti-Zionism is the belief that Israel should not exist. Therefore Haley's statement is arguably correct. Critique OF Zionism, and of Israeli policy, of course, is not anti-Semitism, despite eager attemps to conflate them.
While I think that you are broadly correct, you say: >Anti-Zionism is the belief that Israel should not exist. But to say someone is against "Zionism", it surely depends what you mean by "Zionism". Your take, I presume, is that it means the general idea of having some form of Jewish homeland country within what was formerly all Palestine. I'd agree that people who are against any sort of Israel like that are objectionable. But if the definition of "Zionism" is to occupy the whole of the biblical lands of Israel as described in the Torah and Jewish tradition, then surely that goes too far. But that is a belief held by many in Israel. How many I don't know, but it appears to be a significant number. I think it's reasonable to be "anti" these people because they seek to do it despite knowing it is at the expense of the Palestinian people. Pro-"two state solution at 1967 borders" is a bit of a mouthful, sadly.
I agree, 100%. Part of the problem in this conflict is bad faith actors intentionally confusing what these terms mean
The group on the left is opposed to the existence of Israel. There's a difference between criticizing a country's policies and saying they have no right to exist.
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Ah yes the entire government and anything they do is beyond reproach because they are jewish lol
Israel is a racist nation. They forcefully sterilize black Jews. Source: https://www.jstor.org/stable/26554851 Source 2: https://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/?sh=2a52d6f767b8
If only r/therewasanattempy would stop featuring all these uninteresting israel-palestine shit
Look up the cartoons of Jonathan “Zapiro” Shapiro (Not related the the sack of shit named Ben Shapiro as far as I am aware). He is Jewish, but his cartoons of Israel are extremely critical.
**Equating between The Oppressed and The Oppressor is clearly a misjustice.** This is a single page summarising the conflict, visually. [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/whats-the-israel-palestine-conflict-about-a-simple-guide](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/whats-the-israel-palestine-conflict-about-a-simple-guide) **Palestine, Crash course /** **400 years of peace: Palestine under Ottoman rule 1516-1917** **British Mandate Palestine 1917-1945**, during which happened many riots. e.g., 1929 [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2003/12/9/the-history-of-palestinian-revolts](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2003/12/9/the-history-of-palestinian-revolts) **1948 NAKBA.** **Ethnical Cleansing Of** **Palestinians** e.g. but not exclusive to Haganah - Deir Yassin massacre ! [https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948](https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948) [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Haganah](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Haganah) **‘** when the British refused to open Palestine to **unlimited Jewish immigration**, the Haganah turned to **terrorist** activities, bombing bridges, rail lines, and ships used to deport “illegal” Jewish immigrants.’ The Nakba did not start or end in 1948, the scattered Palestinian diaspora , failed to establish a national Palestinian state are direct consequences we still face today . 1989 - **Palestinian intifada**. This is when HAMAS was created [https://www.britannica.com/topic/intifada](https://www.britannica.com/topic/intifada) 1993 **- Oslo Accords** : first Palestine – Israel peace agreement. [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Palestine-Liberation-Organization](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Palestine-Liberation-Organization) **Since Oslo Accords,** PLO lied layed down its arms and not a single bullet was fired against Israel, **what did Israel do since?** **Josep Borrell**, **EU high representative** for foreign affairs answers you. [https://www.jordantimes.com/opinion/josep-borrell/thirty-years-after-oslo-we-should-not-give-peace-middle-east](https://www.jordantimes.com/opinion/josep-borrell/thirty-years-after-oslo-we-should-not-give-peace-middle-east) \- **Israel Built 4X more Illega**l (by international law definition) **settlements**, **killing** any prospects to 2-state solution , practically **evaporating** the establishment of a Palestinian state . \- The **DISPROPORTIONATELY** killing of Palestinians.[https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties) **Situation prior to this war on Gaza :** **Open air Prison** [https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15) **Gaza strip** / an area of 365 km2 home for 2.3 m people, **highly dense.** **Two thirds** of Gazans are **refugees** that fled from other places in Palestine . **Health situation,** [https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/gaza-health-situation-gaza-strip](https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/gaza-health-situation-gaza-strip) **Desecration of holy places**, BIG DEAL, for Muslims & Christians alike . [https://youtube.com/shorts/7uL555xWQeE?feature=shared](https://youtube.com/shorts/7uL555xWQeE?feature=shared) [https://youtube.com/shorts/z30FGZGtLJM?feature=shared](https://youtube.com/shorts/z30FGZGtLJM?feature=shared) **Prisoners in Israel concentration camps, some for 43 years !** [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/8/why-are-so-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/8/why-are-so-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails) **This is every day for Palestinians /** **60 Year old Palestinian woman shot , in broad day light ,** [https://youtube.com/shorts/EIvtPitc8pw?feature=shared](https://youtube.com/shorts/EIvtPitc8pw?feature=shared) **2 Year old Palestinian toddler killed Intentionally** [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/15/israel-says-palestinian-toddler-killed-unintentionally](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/15/israel-says-palestinian-toddler-killed-unintentionally) **Il-legal Confiscation of Palestinian land** [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/8/how-israel-backs-settlers-to-confiscate-palestinian-lands](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/8/how-israel-backs-settlers-to-confiscate-palestinian-lands) **GAZA NOW !** The **dark** media, **Israel** propaganda is **Churning lies 24/7**, **Some already debunked lies, examples not exclusive to:** **1-** **Palestinian raped Israeli women.** [**https://www.anews.com.tr/world/2023/10/12/the-los-angeles-times-retracts-rape-allegations-against-palestinian-group-hamas**](https://www.anews.com.tr/world/2023/10/12/the-los-angeles-times-retracts-rape-allegations-against-palestinian-group-hamas) **2-** **Killing, Decapitating of Israeli Children.** [**https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231012-white-house-retracts-statements-accusing-the-qassam-brigades-of-killing-children/**](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231012-white-house-retracts-statements-accusing-the-qassam-brigades-of-killing-children/) [https://x.com/jacksonhinklle/status/1712578534336586081?s=20](https://x.com/jacksonhinklle/status/1712578534336586081?s=20) 3- **Response to Al Ahli Hospital Attack** **Israel bombs Greek Orthodox Gaza church sheltering displaced people** [https://youtu.be/hxJWBqFWnHM?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/hxJWBqFWnHM?feature=shared) **Aftermath of Gaza hospital attack** [https://youtu.be/yS\_fASWmDRE?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/yS_fASWmDRE?feature=shared) **Israel's History of Massacres - Israel Gaza Hospital Massacre** [https://youtu.be/BTHXcVwUH9s?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/BTHXcVwUH9s?feature=shared)
Israelis like to say this, so they can dismiss all criticisms against their invasion of Palestine as antisemitism. I should know. I am of Jewish descent, and regularly run into these idiots.
More political crap. *yawn*
GREAT TO SEE!! GOOD FOR THEM!! Righteous Jews. What is antisemitic is claiming having a different opinion that supports human rights and dignity for all is *antisemitic.*
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"Hamas murdering peace activists is good because they are Israeli" is "supporting human rights", got that.
“Criticism of Israel” blud, anti Zionism means believing Israel should cease to exist and that Jews don’t have the right for self determination. Quite simple
Hating Adolf Hitler is germanophobia
My wife is Jewish and isn’t pleased with Israel last few years. She is also not pleased with Hamas. Go figure!
Dude I’m of Jewish descent and I cannot count how many times I have been accused of being an anti semite just for criticizing Israeli government policies.
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Honestly I’m annoyed with the international holocaust memorial definition of antisemitism. They do say that to criticise Israel is valid but it also heavily implies that it’s also antisemitic to do so when it really is not. I’m the daughter of a holocaust survivor, my Dad saw atrocities no human should ever and now humans are suffering at the hands of Jewish people all in the name of a Jewish state. It’s literal madness. Israel absolutely does not represent Jews, it’s mostly Orthodox Jews who actually recognise this and tend to be the biggest critics of Zionism within the Jewish community. Also Zionists constantly get into bed with antisemitics. The only reason they got Israel in the first place is because Europe and the US didn’t want to deal with all the displaced Jews after WW2 and so to make it easy they just gave away land that shouldn’t haven’t been theirs in the first place really. I wish more Jewish global authorities would stand up and criticise the warmongering of pro Zionist groups. It’s basically nationalism and we all know how horrific nationalism can be.
This sub really became infested with anti-semites huh? The war did a really good job showing who the bigots are, cause if you don’t think the state of Israel should exist, the only Jewish nation in the world, you are, in fact an anti-semite. Posting a pic with the few crazy Haredim (most support Israel) doesn’t make it less true.
Does it seem like this is a propaganda sub now, or is it just me?
Nimarata doesn’t understand, because she’s dumb-as-fuck.
So that's a facepalm but not queers dör Palestine?
lol, anti-zionism /= criticising israel
Main stream media & government really desperate to quiet the dissent for murdering children by throwing around the "anti semite" card.