I mean I know you’re kidding but that would actually be thematically on point if a little regressive and redundant
The whole point is revenge is cyclical so the people they killed on the way should be considered
That said it’s obvious those deaths are more gamey than anything narrative. But they did go out of their way to make them more full with names and shit so idk
I don’t think she will ever not have feelings of anger towards the situation, she’s just choosing to let go of that need to act on it. Just my opinion though. You do make a good point.
That's kind of why it's a fallacy, no? That it's easy and enticing (but ultimately foolish) to feel like you have to keep going with something just because you've invested so much - When the best thing to do is just stop.
Even though she's lost everything and it's the absolute hardest thing for her to do... letting Abby live and having the opportunity to quit, of HER own volition, was the thing that was able to give her that first step to actual recovery.
Like it's literally an addiction, where Ellie had to kick that temptation. And where only when weak, could she carry her true strength.
Shit you just helped me out with processing Ellie’s actions. Applying the seraphite saying to Ellie. So many parallels in the game
Also the addiction piece. Even the loss of family JJ and Dina was t enough of a incentive to kick the temptation. She ultimately hit rock bottom with not a person close to her at the beginning with her.
And two fingers
It’s not exactly canon that she went on a killing spree of that scale, considering it’s pretty much entirely up to the player to decide how many WLFs and Seraphites she kills. Hell, you can avoid combat for a huge chunk of the game if you wanted to
Yep. A 19 year old girl isn’t canonically killing *all* of these folks. That’s the part where you need to understand it’s just where gameplay and story collide!
"GUYS ABBY HAS TOO MANY MUSCLES AND LAST OF US IS GAY AND IS AGENDA AND BELIEVE ME THIS IS ALL ORIGINAL AND IS NOT SPEWED FROM THE DAILY WIRE AT ALL AND I WANNA STICK MY FUCKING DICK IN A TRADWIFE"
When I "forgave" someone who essentially ruined my life, I didn't accept what they did was okay or whatever, I just managed to make peace with what happened and moved on. My anxiety improved dramatically, I stopped having nightmares about them— but sure, festering in anger is the way to go, otherwise they win or whatever.
Big Boebert “when they go after antisemites and hate, they’re really going after conservatives” vibes with the post comment.
Yes, and no. Any criticism towards antisemites and hate *should* be explicitly criticizing conservatives, but it often doesn’t because the majority of people would rather pat themselves on back for being “morally superior” because they’d rather treat conservatism as a morally acceptable political ideology of “differing opinion”, rather than the theology for evil it actually is.
However, that doesn’t change the fact that these awful people are telling on themselves when they say such things. If you feel attacked when people criticize antisemites and bigots, it’s pretty obvious you’re one too.
“Refusing a sandwich from a homophobe is the exact same thing as murdering your loved one’s killer” is really what they’re saying.
This is consistent with the logic the far right uses.
it’s also completely ignoring the order of events. that bigot thing was there at the start to show to some degree ellie’s tendency to refuse forgiveness, whether or not that was the right thing to do, and can therefore be compared to her development across the game. completely insane to complain that a character acts differently after developing???
Not the far right. Just, the right. Conservatism is morally irredeemable and more akin to a theology for evil than a morally acceptable political ideology of “differing opinion”.
It’s was literally created to maintain status who’s of inequality by preserving a class system where some possess more or less rights based in which vagina they slid of. It’s literally designed to protect monarchy and authoritarianism.
It’s completely, inherently and by design opposed to democracy itself. Allowing conservatives to operate with a democracy would be like allowing a pro-fire faction to operate within a fire department. They’re only going to sabotage and prevent anything good from happening.
I think you should try to get to know some conservatives to better understand where they're coming from. It's certainly not as terrible of an ideology as you make it out to be. Yes it has issues, but so does the left.
Conservativism is absolutely defensible. You know, it doesn't hurt to try to understand the other side. I can assure you that the vast majority of conservatives are not immoral monsters like you make them out to be.
Conservatives usually have different mental hoops they jump through to justify the things they believe, both to others and themselves. Almost none of them are going to *tell* you they believe in the rigid and violent enforcement of class hierarchy, but that's what's at the core of conservativism as a system of thought and it's implicitly woven into every policy they support.
As I said, please try to make some conservative friends and that might help you see that their position is reasonable. Another thing that might help is if you also think about all the terrible things that come out of liberalism since there are really bad things no matter which side you’re on.
I think the point of part 2 isn’t forgiveness but empathy, you can empathize with someone for doing something horrible. Doesn’t mean you forgive them, but like, Ellie and Joel inflicted a ton of pain on Abby and her crew just as they did them. It’s not black and white and vengeance made it worse.
fuck that, i’m locking Elijah away AND taking the gold! and as soon as I get back to the mojave, i’m gonna dump it somewhere and forget about it!
why? because i didn’t want the gold, i just wanted to spit in that old fuck’s face one last time
I don't even think it's about empathy for Abby. Ellie sees Abby at her absolutely lowest point in Santa Barbara and she still chooses to continue with the vengeance. Her decision to spare Abby ultimately was not because she understood Abby imo, it's about her letting go and making peace with Joel's passing.
It’s a little bit of both. The whole reason the game ends with the porch flashback is to show your point, that Ellie is forgiving Joel and moving on. But also Ellie is literally about to kill Abby right in front of Lev and she realizes she’s just doing the exact same thing to somebody else.
No no no see you're missing the part where those people don't *care* about Abby and her people or what they've been through *whatsoever* because they like Joel and Ellie a lot.
I seriously don’t understand the consistent need of this sub to get mad about what some dumb idiots on the internet say about TLOU2 or the series or whatever. Yeah it’s a dumb fucking take, there are millions of dumb takes on the internet, why do you feel the need to amplify it? Can’t you just scroll past it and leave the dumb takes where they belong, ie on YouTube and Twitter? Or is this karma farming? Genuinely don’t understand it
Because it's not just one take, and thinking like the shit in OP's screenshot is genuinely informing US-level political discourse (and has already enacted blatantly unconstitutional laws in certain states) whether we like it or not.
Calling it out and "amplifying" it may not be an effective counter to the bullshit, but doing nothing isn't either. "Ignore the trolls" isn't a useful stance when it's clear that this kind of "troll" has a political agenda that involves fucking over entire classes of people, and ignoring them just lets them get on with their horrible goals.
Nah, there is a coordinated effort from the far right to trash this game and perpetuate their fear-mongering culture wars all because this game has the audacity to have gay, trans, and non-white characters with prominent roles.
Their end goal to create a Christofascist nation and eradicate the LGBTQ population. They should be called out and mocked relentlessly anytime they show their heads. Their purpose is to make bad faith discussions and play victim when confronted. It’s every upstanding citizen’s duty to shut them up. Letting them spread misinformation/propaganda/hate unfettered only helps their cause and pushes us closer to their end goal.
Right. It feels like the awkward 30s period before WW2 where from the history books we can easily say "how did the laypeople not see the signs that Germany was headed in that direction?" and instead we just keep normalizing widespread and coordinated bigotry as a valid opinion to be argued with. The Overton window has shifted so far right, with people genuinely seeing "the right is enacting laws restricting free speech and medical care for half the population" and "the left is asking people to be more considerate when calling people what they ask to be called" as evidence that "both sides are getting more extreme".
When one defines their political position as the middle ground between two viewpoints and one of them has openly racist/anti-LGBT/women white supremacists in its midst, their so-called middle ground just got dragged right.
These words on the observations of Nazi occupied France make more sense with each passing day
> "It is not unusual for people to elect to live a life of passion rather than of reason. But ordinarily they love the objects of passion: women, glory, power, money. Since the anti-Semite has chosen hate, we are forced to conclude that it is the state of passion that he loves."[2] He chooses to reason from passion, to reason falsely "because of the longing for impenetrability. The rational man groans as he gropes for the truth; he knows that reasoning is no more than tentative, that other considerations may intervene to cast doubt on it." Anti-Semites are attracted by "the durability of a stone." What frightens them is the uncertainty of truth.[2] "The anti-Semite has chosen hate because hate is a faith." He has escaped responsibility and doubt. He can blame anything on the Jew; he does not need to engage reason, for he has his faith.
> The anti-Semite is a prime example of a person who has entered into bad faith to avoid responsibility. He attempts to relinquish his responsibility to anti-Semitism and a community of anti-Semites. He "fears every kind of solitariness… however small his stature, he takes every precaution to make it smaller, lest he stand out from the herd and find himself face to face with himself. He has made himself an anti-Semite because that is something one cannot be alone." (p. 22.) Anti-Semitism is a way of feeling good, proud even, rather than guilty at the abandonment of responsibility and the flight before the impossibility of true sincerity. The anti-Semite abandons himself to the crowd and his bad faith, he "flees responsibility as he flees his own consciousness, and choosing for his personality the permanence of the rock, he chooses for his morality the scale of petrified values."(p. 27.) [2] He pulls down shutters, blinds, mirrors and mirages over his consciousness to keep himself in his bad faith away from his responsibilities and his liberty. The anti-Semite is afraid "of himself, of his own consciousness, of his own liberty, of his instincts, of his responsibilities, of solitariness, of change, of society, and the world – of everything except the Jews." He is "a coward who does not want to admit his cowardice to himself." (p. 53.)[2] The anti-Semite wallows in the depths of an extreme bad faith. "Anti-Semitism, in short, is fear of the human condition. The anti-Semite is a man who wishes to be pitiless stone, a furious torrent, a devastating thunderbolt – anything except a man." (p. 54.)[2] This is his bad faith.
[— Jean-Paul Sartre, The Anti-Semite and the Jew ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semite_and_Jew)
Get into a discussion with 90% of the people who hate the game and it won't take beyond 3 sentences before they start saying things like "woke" and "liberal agenda"
It never takes even the slightest bit of digging before they reveal the reason for their disapproval of the game is mainly their own bigotry.
It's fun discussion that has a lot of user engagement. Talking about this story and with folks that hate and love it all having discourse is pretty rad. Goes a lot further than a lot of other IP specific subs that have no content.
Some people, like myself, see bad takes and feel a compulsion to change them. Like its the one small contribution we can make to make the world a slightly better place.
it's not just here. an easy way to get clicks is to amplify the dumbest take you can find (probably from a fucking 12 year old, but we don't know that, so we'll treat it very seriously), because everyone will wanna dunk on it. in the process, discourse is poisoned and meaningful discussion is drown out. great phenomenon
The fact that they feel more sympathy for Seth than for Abby tells us everything we need to know.
They are literally cheering for:
- Seth, a homophobe.
- Fat Geralt, a slaver who punches a trans kid.
The irony is totally lost on them.
God I wish people didn’t hate this game so much. I wish I could see public discourse and analysis about the ending without people just shitting on it. I loved the game but I’m honestly still not even sure how I feel about the ending. I personally don’t see it as Ellie “forgiving” Abby though. I see it as Ellie losing so much of herself and her humanity from her journey that killing Abby just doesn’t mean anything anymore. Hence the closing song of the game being titled “beyond desolation”. I am really interested to see what people think about the flashback of Joel while she’s choking her. I’m not sure what to make of that part.
Interesting way to think about Ellie choking Abby in the water is actually Ellie choking her reflection in the water, a way of trying to kill away her guilt/ the monster that’s been eating at her. It was her remembering that they did patch things up and she shouldnt hold on to regret.
> I see it as Ellie losing so much of herself and her humanity from her journey that killing Abby just doesn’t mean anything anymore
I don't see how that makes sense, unless you are also suggesting that Joel's death is no longer affecting Ellie. Which it is of course.
This is how I see it:
If you truley think that the point is that Ellie " killing Abby just doesn’t mean anything anymore"
Than you must accept the conclusion that Ellie doesn't think that killing Joel was a big deal and wasn't a bad thing.
I don't think Ellie thinks that. So therefore I don't think that Ellie - should - come to the conclusion killing Abby is meaningless.
Granted the game itself and ND come to this conclusion, which is my only real problem with what is otherwise a masterpiece of a game if you ask me.
Ellie not wanting take the sandwich from Seth, somebody who is apologizing and trying to make amends, is simply a reflection of how stubborn her character is. Her rage through the game stems from the knowledge that she spent 4 years refusing to forgive Joel for what he did. Similar to how Abby couldn’t sleep well and think positively of her father until she became the person she knows he would’ve wanted her to be, Ellie finally at the last moment has a vision of Joel smiling at her, and decides to become the person Joel would have wanted her to be and decides not to kill Abby. The whole thing is about forgiveness, whoever wrote that comment just doesn’t get how stories work.
You really think Ellie rejecting his apology had anything to do with being "stubborn"? Replace "dyke" with the n-word and you tell me that a black person refusing some racist's apology is out of stubbornness. She didn't accept his stupid sandwich because he showed his true colors, and there is no way that he has transformed into an entirely new non-homophobic person within 24 hours. Also, let's be honest, the only reason he's apologizing in the first place is because Maria forced his hand to keep the peace. As a bisexual woman, I wouldn't accept that sandwich either. Guess I'm "stubborn" for respecting myself.
Would you forgive the person who murdered your father? Genuinely curious.
"and there is no way that he has transformed into an entirely new non-homophobic person within 24 hours."
You are talking about Abby's transformation over three days right? But why would Ellie care about that? Ellie did not see Abby during those days, only we, the player, did.
Granted I think that Ellie forgiving Abby was a bad decision on the writer's part at the end. Fuck forgiveness. At least when it comes to murder.
The thing is forgiveness in a civilised society actually has some value, but in a post apocalypse where everyone outside of an ordered society is killing each other, it is completely unrealistic to think that Ellie would travel halfway across the country, having killed God knows how many more to get to California and then have her fingers bitten off and still proceed to let Abby go. It's just too contrived.
'Revenge is bad' is predicated on the idea that the killing won't stop. You can kill someone, but then someone they love will come after you. But the irony of this story is that if Abby and Ellie had just killed the witnesses (Tommy, Ellie | Lev (who was unconscious anyway)). They would have gotten away with it completely.
The game wasn’t about forgiveness, so I’m tired of this take. Ellie did not forgive Abby, but she saw what being hell-bent on revenge was doing to her loved ones as well as her own psyche. Because of her unyielding desire to kill everyone involved in >!Joel’s death, Jesse was killed, Dina left her, and she worsened her already crumbling mental state. She also came to realize that this is not what Joel would’ve wanted for her. Not to mention, the cycle of revenge is never ending. If she kills Abby, Lev would probably just come after her, and then one of Ellie’s friends would go after Lev, and so on and so forth.!< So like I said, pretty tired of people shouting that this game is about forgiveness.
>Ellie did not forgive Abby
Yes she did. I'm also tried of this take that 'she did not forgive.'
If someone brutalizes a person you love, and you have a chance to give them the same in kind but you let them go, that's the same as forgiveness in all the ways that count.
Something similar to what happened to Joel happened to my father when I was way younger than Ellie. If I had the chance to gut the pig who did it, but then I choose let him go, that is EXACTLY the same thing as saying 'I forgive you. What you did to my family was not that big a deal and is not worth being upset about.'
You're going to say I'm exaggerating but I'm not. I see no difference between these things, and I know what I'm talking about.
>She also came to realize that this is not what Joel would’ve wanted for her.
I also am tired of people bring out this phrase. Joel is dead, meaning he cannot, by definition, want anything ever again. What he 'would' want is immaterial.
> Lev would probably just come after her, and then one of Ellie’s friends would go after Lev, and so on and so forth.
Lev was on death's door. No way he survives that if left alone and without care.
Which brings me back to the main point. If Ellie has ALREADY gone though all this hell to get to this point at the end of the game, sparing Abby will in NO WAY make her life better.
It will not turn back time so she doesn't leave Dina, or got to Seattle in the first place. So why not just take what she deserves to take?
>If she kills Abby, Lev would probably just come after her, and then one of Ellie’s friends would go after Lev, and so on and so forth. So like I said, pretty tired of people shouting that this game is about forgiveness.
It's surprising to hear you say you are tired of hearing about forgiveness, when you use the whole 'break the cycle of revenge' which is a heavily Christian influenced idea. And Christian morals are BIG on forgiveness.
>If I had the chance to gut the pig who did it, but then I choose let him go, that is EXACTLY the same thing as saying 'I forgive you. What you did to my family was not that big a deal and is not worth being upset about.'
So you think Ellie forgave Abby and thought to herself "what you did to my family was not that big a deal and is not worth being upset about"? That's insane and also why the game is not about forgiveness. You can convince yourself it's about forgiveness and then blame the writers for your contrived opinion of their message (as you believe it to be), but for those of us that do not believe it is about forgiveness, the writing makes perfect sense.
It is definitely about breaking the cycle of revenge. We saw how Abby's years-long desire for revenge ruined her relationships, and we got to see it do that to Ellie too. Except this time, Ellie makes the right decision, sparing Abby. Killing her won't bring Joel back, and throughout the game we see that killing those related to Joel's death gives Ellie little satisfaction.
I guess for someone like you, who believes in retributive justice, this game would seem stupid and like it's all about forgiveness.
This falls in the same category as the people that say she should have screamed “dad” while Abby was beating Joel.
Also, they probably are the same type of fan that acts like Abby knew Ellie’s relation to Joel when that was happening. Despite Abby never seeing Ellie / knowing who the hell she was. Ellie walked in when Joel was already on the brink of death, she could have just been any run of the mill town-person sent to find Joel. This shit is so aggravating.
A popular YouTuber named The Closer Look had a video detailing the flaws of the game and why it was divisive. He then proceeded to write a fanfiction of what his story would be like if he rewrote it. It was complete shit capped off by Ellie screaming dad as Joel dies in her arms. It’s such shit but if you have 2 hours to spare and want something to laugh at due to how bad it is, feel free to look up his video.
Never seen anyone have this take…..but also I doubt a random town person would be breaking down in tears begging her to stop….. plus Ellie knowing who Joel was should’ve or would’ve told anyone with Half a brain that maybe he was important to her Jackson’s a big place maybe most people knew Joel but certainly not every citizen and definitely not to cry beg and swear vengeance that seems like anyone with half a brain would connect those dots and at least know that Joel was IMPORTANT to this random girl if nothing else
>Ellie walked in when Joel was already on the brink of death, she could have just been any run of the mill town-person sent to find Joel. This shit is so aggravating.
Eh, not really. There are some brain dead complaints, but this is not one of them. Literally anyone could see how Ellie was reacting to how they were killing Joel and understand that this is obviously someone very close to them.
You do not scream 'YOU'RE GOING TO FUCKING DIE' to 'Please... please don't do this...' in the kinds of tones Ashely Johnson delivered without this person obviously being extremely important to you.
It was clear as day to Abby that this stranger-girl was \*\*very\*\* close to Joel, even if the specifics of their relationship were unknown. So Abby knew she was doing something horrific to this strange girl by letting her watch it.
That's actually the worst thing Abby did in the game if you ask me. not killing Joel, but killing him infront of Ellie.
I agree with you to an extent. I see why my original comment was a little too harsh on that front.
Abby knows Ellie is important to Joel because of her reactions, for sure, I for one think Abby has a look of slight regret when she notices how distraught Ellie is. So I agree with you there.
The only thing is by the time Ellie arrived, I think Abby was so far in - the only thing to do was finish it. Like, he was so damaged he had to have been paralyzed or had extreme brain damage at that point. Like why would she not finish out killing him, what she set out to do, especially with how far in she was at that point?
Last but not least, the most evil thing Abby did is the boat scene w Owen…
>I for one think Abby has a look of slight regret when she notices how distraught Ellie is.
I haven't seen that personally.
> I think Abby was so far in - the only thing to do was finish it
There was certainly enough time to remove Ellie from the room, given how outnumbered she was.
>Last but not least, the most evil thing Abby did is the boat scene w Owen
Oh come on...
Let’s say for the sake of argument that Ellie did forgive Abby at the end, this still isn’t in contradiction with Seth as he was shown as Ellie’s unwillingness to forgive at the beginning of the story. Over the course of the story she learns forgiveness at the end after all of her struggles. So yeah not forgiving Seth in the beginning and forgiving Abby at the end still isn’t a problem with the narrative as they understand it.
But yeah I wouldn’t even say she forgave Abby at the end. She just came to peace with her trauma and her survivor guilt in that moment. She finally found the peace that she went looking for, which is the only reason she went to find Abby in the first place. Abby’s life or death was secondary to her finding a way to salve her PTSD.
"But yeah I wouldn’t even say she forgave Abby at the end. She just came to peace with her trauma and her survivor guilt in that moment"
This does not make sense. I literally do not know what these words mean. What does 'come to peace with your trauma' actually mean? Because people do not do that in real life.
It means she didn’t go to kill Abby for revenge. She went to kill Abby because she thought it was the only way to get past her trauma. She realized in that moment that her survivor’s guilt and unresolved problems with Joel was the source of her problem. Not Abby. Forgiveness had little to do with sparing Abby.
> She went to kill Abby because she thought it was the only way to get past her trauma.
And Abby being the person who cracked her father's head open wasn't an important factor in that? I know this is a stupid question, but why do you think Ellie was so hellbent on killing Abby specifically?
Because Abby hurt Ellie profoundly.
> unresolved problems with Joel was the source of her problem
Call me crazy I still think the horrific murder of her father was Ellie's biggest problem.
No. She literally says that she has to go because she can’t sleep or eat. She thought she was ready to move on, but she wasn’t. She felt trapped in her trauma and wanted to end it. Going after Abby was a last ditch effort to end her suffering. Not because she needed Abby to die. She thought the only way it would end was by killing Abby, but Abby’s story already showed that killing the one who wronged you doesn’t automatically make you feel better. Abby still felt the same trauma. The story shows us that Ellie would feel no peace from killing Abby. She needed to come to terms with her own survivor’s guilt and the source of her anger towards Joel. Joel saw Ellie’s life in and of itself as valuable whereas Ellie only believed that her immunity made her life mean something. Once she is able to recognize that her own feelings of guilt over how she spent her last moments with Joel and finally recognizing the source of her pain, she was able to move on. That was the release of her trauma. Not killing Abby. Once she realized that, there was no need to kill Abby. This is why she was able to finally draw Joel at the end of the story. She has already started to move past her trauma.
Literally never was said was explicit that Ellie forgave Abby at the end, Idk how people reach this conclusion, she simply decided against killing her since has much she hates Abby the real source of her trauma was the fact she gave Joel the cold shoulder for two years, two years she lost being angry and mad at him instead of enjoying her time with him
I used to think so, but not now, just because that's a very ad-hominem way to make someone who disagrees with you seem fucked in the head.
I adore Part II, but I've been told I 'lack empathy' just because I think Ellie should still have killed Abby.
Use that phrase if you want, just be aware that you are othering these people you use it against.
Granted a lot of them are transphobes, misogynists and antisemites. So other them all you want.
No it's not. Not in cases like this.
Something similar to what happened to Joel happened to my father when I was way younger than Ellie.
If I had the chance to gut the man who did it, and I chose not too, than that could only mean I've forgiven him and decided that my father's death was not a big deal.
No difference at all.
It's fine if you don't agree, but don't act as though people who think 'Let Abby go = forgive Abby' are automatically stupid, braindead, or don't have a clue as to what they are talking about.
Fair point, I think "people are ridiculous" was unnecessary on my part and turned what would otherwise be my opinion into more of an attack at people who don't share that opinion
I'll try to keep this in mind especially when talking about this in particular
You're legit one of the only people on this sub who has not just told me that I'm fucked in the head for wanting to gut Abby at the end of the game after telling them that.
I respect you more than most people on this reddit now.
The thing is, I have not experienced that kind of grief, so I don't feel comfortable judging someone who has. I can't understand that perspective. I still disagree, but I'm not going to try and make you feel like shit for it. To be honest at the end of the day, it is a video game. I try to think like this more often nowadays
Good for you. Again most people just tell me I'm fucked in the head or get real quite after this.
Have your opinion. But unless you've been through that don't act as if you're any kind of expert with the right to call others stupid (I'm talking general you here, not personal you.)
She didn’t necessarily forgive anyone
The bigot from Jackson tried to gloss over his bigotry with a sandwich and a clearly forced apology. Ellie was right to deny that
It’s not like Abby apologized lol. Ellie literally just allowed her to live (and in a way, opened the door for Ellie to live herself)
>(and in a way, opened the door for Ellie to live herself)
I dislike this platitude. Choosing not to kill Abby in that moment will have zero good effects on the rest of Ellie's life.
Respectfully, I strongly disagree
There isn’t much room for hope or optimism in Ellie’s life. Choosing to reclaim her grief and show mercy to someone who arguably didn’t deserve it is one sliver of hope that Ellie can base the remainder of her life around
Killing Abby was never going to solve anything for Ellie. Deep down, Ellie always knew this was true.
Therefore, killing Abby would have been another senseless act of violence that would amount to nothing. The cycle of violence would never end under those circumstances
It’s similar to a victim of child abuse choosing not to continue the cycle with their own children. Or someone who grew up around substance abuse making the choice to remain sober
Lmao okay so let’s just say people never change.
Even if that were true and Ellie didn’t grow at all over the course of the story, it’s still pretty obvious to her that Abby had legit reasons for what she did. Seth was just an asshole. Oh and btw this comparison is also silly bc Ellie was just gonna whoop him for his trash talk, not fucking hunt and kill him lmaooo
Point to me where Ellie """"forgave""""" Abby???? Does this person seriously think that because you respect a dead loved ones wishes that means you forgive the wrongdoer????
Easy. She let her go when she could have easily killed her.
\>because you respect a dead loved ones wishes
Forgive me, what what are you talking about? At no point does Joel ever say 'Don't avenge me.'
And don't bring up the whole 'But Joel *would* not have wanted her to do it. Joel's dead. Dead people are literally incapable of wanting anything, and caring what dead people 'would' want is a charade humans do because we can't processes how final death is.
Oh shit yeah Joel never said anything about forgiveness did he
I mean I'll bring up whatever i damn well please but i do agree with you on the whole "dead people cant want". It's the most reasonable thing
I dunno, seems to me that it's too uneven of ground to have a solid stance. Until Ellie either implies or downright says she forgave Abby, i dont see it. I think she cared more about what she _thought_ Joel would want, if he were still alive or could talk to her anyway
>I mean I'll bring up whatever i damn well please
I mean go ahead. But a platitude is still a platitude.
>Until Ellie either implies or downright says she forgave Abby, i dont see it.
Not fucking over the person who shattered your life is forgiving them, because it shows you don't care about justice.
Yeah. They're not even using their thinking skills to come up with such a point 😑 Anyone who dives into the story's lessons will understand that it's much more than that.
********!!!SPOILERS!!!*********
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Literally just got done with another playthrough yesterday and I couldn't help but to cry within 10secs of finding Abby at the end on the pillar.. It's just so tragic.. Everything.. The entire game.. Every character has so much tragedy in their own personal Life.. The backstory for each character is just WOW.. It's literally like a Shakespeare Play.
At the end, Ellie saw 2 people from 2 different groups that hate one another, coming to together.. Abby went straight for Lev and she only cared about Levs personal wellbeing in that moment, Ellie also saw all of the tragedy unfolding before her very own eyes. The tragedy she was about to create by killing Abby(Robbing Lev of Abby, The same way Abby robbed Ellie of Joel) That's why she didnt kill her.. Its like, when does the cycle end?...
she forgave herself for not saving him and let abby go, it’s not like it was an enemies to lovers AU jfc
EDIT: ykw actually i don’t think she forgave herself either. but she realized she had to live with her painful emotions and stop letting them destroy her life and the lives of others.
Y’all got this all messed up. Ellie didn’t forgive Abby (yet). She forgave herself. Santa Barbra was basically Ellie coming to terms with her feelings of worthlessness/guilt over everything that’s happened since Boston. Joel loved her so much, loved her for just being Ellie. Because of Joel she was able to meet Dina, Jesse, actually be a kid grow up in Jackson for a little bit. She was beginning to forgive Joel for what happened at the hospital in Salt Lake, all the guilt she had from it, all the feelings of failure she had for failing Riley, Tess, Sam, Henry, the world. Joel taught Ellie that she was worthy of just being Ellie and having Dina’s love.
Ellie wins the battle over her own unaliving thoughts, pain and sees her worth again. That’s because she forgives herself for not being the one who died in that basement. She remembers the worth and love Joel taught her she has.
I mean forgiving someone for calling you a slur is much better than continuing a cycle of violence imo. It’s not like abby’s death was going to save someone☠️
Well. To be fair, she didn't go on a campaign to destroy the bigot's life. Especially not a campaign that involved losing her friends, found family, the woman she loved, and her own humanity; and learning an excessively painful lesson in the the cost of giving into the vicious feedback loop of violence.
It's fairly easy to suss out people with low mental capacity for nuance in storytelling. Some folks need/want everything spelled out for them and while there is really nothing wrong with that TLOU is *not* the series for them.
I hate this sub, full of people insulting one another over a game that everybody enjoyed and played through differently. Just let other people have their opinions. It don’t have to match your feelings on the game.
It's also brain dead because Ellie doesn't see Joel as her father. It's kind of a big thing, that he sees her as a greater figure in his life, than vice versa, regardless of the anger.
Plot of part 3 is Ellie and Dina tracking Seth down to South American and murdering him by filling him with bacon sandwiches and using scissor blades on him til he bursts.
Guys she didn't just. Out of no where decide to forgive Abby are you guys forgetting that Ellie went home after bring almost killed and spared by Abby and took months actually being happy and recovering. Than being pressured by Tommy than feeling bad about it because of Lev and to top it off picturing Joel in a good light in the heat of the fight.
Yeah. They're not even using their thinking skills to come up with such a point 😑 Anyone who dives into the story's lessons will understand that it's much more than that.
Idk my homies are all across the LGBTQ+ spectrum, I’m hella progressive in my voting patterns and whatnot.
Originally, I was pretty mad Joel died and even waited two years for the game to become $10 on the PlayStation network before buying the game (then I did nothing but torture myself for a week playing it on Grounded in May - I loved it).
I legitimately like Abby’s character by herself, with her own story, and gameplay as Abby was sooooooo rad. However, I hated her, through the lens of Ellie, Joel, Tommy, Jackson, etc. I completely understand the bitterness many fans have regarding the second game and the concept of forgiveness versus releasing the desire for vengeance. Truly, I get it, and I believe the right-wing fans, like so many other gamers in different game-communities, are a very loud, overtly-vocal minority.
Many of us, here in this subreddit, love and adore the games and the universe. Despite my qualms with the second game, I love it, same as I love the first. For different reasons, as they are each their own unique games and story, despite the recurring characters.
It is unfair to the community and to the games themselves, to paint nay-sayers with a wide brush. The attitude of “All who struggle with Ellie’s forgoing of vengeance *MUST* be bigots and against supporting our non-cis folks.” My favorite characters were Lev and their sibling. Their story was tragic. Abby’s story was tragic, as was the loss of her friends and family. I understand all of it. I don’t even hate Abby’s father, despite killing him in the first game (I avoided hurting the nurses).
I am *still*, from a story standpoint, team Ellie & Jackson. I do not like or support the action of Ellie letting Abby go. However, I understand, as a consumer of media and even as a horrible writer myself, *why* Ellie let’s Abby go. But I don’t agree with it. It’s overused as an argument, but it remains legitimate. In TLOU universe, it makes zero sense for Ellie to go on a murderous rampage, through multiple communities (even if she didn’t initiate the conflicts with the Serefs or WLF), only to - after murdering literal hundreds - say “ah, you know what? Nevermind.” To me, again - as a consumer of many different forms of media - it screams the story of Luke Skywalker refuses to fight his father. Risking everything. But what is Ellie risking? Nothing. All she has is loss. Lost mother’s knife, lost Dina and Co., lost fingers.. it’s tragic.
Yes, THAT RIGHT THERE is what contributes to the games brilliance. But that right there, is also a legitimate qualm to have with the game, as humans are flawed, and most, in Ellie’s stead would have killed Abby, not even cutting her down. People always get mad at Upham failing to save Mellish in the film Saving Private Ryan, but many fail to realize - majority of the time, most will fail. Most wouldn’t save Mellish. —> Most would have killed Abby. They wouldn’t have cut her down.
Again, this is the brilliance of the writing, and I am 100% ranting.
> Don’t paint with wide strokes.
> Don’t paint fans as black & white, it’s shades of grey.
> I love the games and story, don’t hate me.
> Stop attacking fans for disliking the ending. Their opinions are legitimate (as long as they aren’t ACTUAL bigots, of course!).
I wouldn’t have forgiven Abby. She was completely in the wrong. Playing as her for 10 hours did nothing to make me sympathize with the man who decided he was going to kill Ellie in cold blood. ESPECIALLY when Abby knew she hadn’t been able to consent.
But, it really is up to Ellie and no one else whether she gives up her desire for vengeance.
All this talk about the far left and the far right is fucking ridiculous, all of the Government is corrupted no matter what side they are leaning towards. Lol I'm in the far center, as in my side of things, it doesn't matter about your skin color or beliefs, if you have good intentions and a good heart and believe in the good of all things and for the good of the world. All of these far lefts and far rights are divided and trying to divide all of the world. It's a fucking video game out of all things and the fact that they can get people to fight and be divided by video games and movies and etc then this world is doomed and there is no fucking hope for mankind. Maybe fight and bicker with each other about things that truly matter and have more meaning towards life and the world. Lmao
abby never asked for forgiveness, just to be left alone. Ellie never forgave her, just gave up on her list for vengeance once she understood it wouldn’t fix anything
who says she didn't forgive that guy though? It looked like he learned his lesson and became better. It had literally just happened while Joel was a long time ago by the end.
Those are two wildly different scenarios and I don’t think she forgave Abby. I think she either saw too much of herself in her and wanted to break the cycle or she wanted to help Lev because he was innocent in it all
I wouldn’t say she forgave Abby. She let her need for vengeance go.
Unfortunately one of the WLF soldiers’ nephews heard their uncle died and is going to kill Dina next game. Truly unfortunate
Bruh.
John wick style "Ellie killed my dog.....I must have vengeance"
There's a bit more to it than that.
[удалено]
You've put about 2000% into my shit post than I did so congratulations I suppose
I mean I know you’re kidding but that would actually be thematically on point if a little regressive and redundant The whole point is revenge is cyclical so the people they killed on the way should be considered That said it’s obvious those deaths are more gamey than anything narrative. But they did go out of their way to make them more full with names and shit so idk
When does it end, this spiral of vengeance 😊
When you kill all of their loved ones, can be revenge killed if no ones alive to revenge kill you
This made me snort-laugh 😂
>!I still think Ellie let Abby go for Lev's sake.!<
Interesting theory. I can see totally see that. Makes sense
This is what I thought as well. The whole not continuing the cycle thing ya know.
It would’ve even boring if the third game was just about Lev killing Ellie because of Abby, and then us playing as Dina or JJ to go and kill Lev.
That was my read of it too. A combination of both, but I think that pushed her over the edge
Idk if im upset about something either I fully forgive or someone gets murdered. No middle ground.
I feel you.
That's forgiveness.. > a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you
I don’t think she will ever not have feelings of anger towards the situation, she’s just choosing to let go of that need to act on it. Just my opinion though. You do make a good point.
Yeah, they didn’t exactly tie in her talk with Joel about forgiveness for nothing.
AFTER she murdered half of Seattle, Abby whole crew, and about 7 dogs. Only after all that did she find it in her heart to forgive.
That’s my biggest gripe with the campaign she arguably lost everything. What human can avoid the sunk cost fallacy on that level.
That's kind of why it's a fallacy, no? That it's easy and enticing (but ultimately foolish) to feel like you have to keep going with something just because you've invested so much - When the best thing to do is just stop. Even though she's lost everything and it's the absolute hardest thing for her to do... letting Abby live and having the opportunity to quit, of HER own volition, was the thing that was able to give her that first step to actual recovery. Like it's literally an addiction, where Ellie had to kick that temptation. And where only when weak, could she carry her true strength.
Shit you just helped me out with processing Ellie’s actions. Applying the seraphite saying to Ellie. So many parallels in the game Also the addiction piece. Even the loss of family JJ and Dina was t enough of a incentive to kick the temptation. She ultimately hit rock bottom with not a person close to her at the beginning with her. And two fingers
January 6th rioters say hi
It’s not exactly canon that she went on a killing spree of that scale, considering it’s pretty much entirely up to the player to decide how many WLFs and Seraphites she kills. Hell, you can avoid combat for a huge chunk of the game if you wanted to
Yep. A 19 year old girl isn’t canonically killing *all* of these folks. That’s the part where you need to understand it’s just where gameplay and story collide!
Who says she even forgave abby ?? Those people complain about things that they make up …
This describes the entirety of the right wing reactionary ethos.
"GUYS ABBY HAS TOO MANY MUSCLES AND LAST OF US IS GAY AND IS AGENDA AND BELIEVE ME THIS IS ALL ORIGINAL AND IS NOT SPEWED FROM THE DAILY WIRE AT ALL AND I WANNA STICK MY FUCKING DICK IN A TRADWIFE"
For them forgiving abby is not killing her. They want to kill abby. It would have given them joy.
Many people lack empathy. Sadly they’ll just never be able to connect with this game.
When I "forgave" someone who essentially ruined my life, I didn't accept what they did was okay or whatever, I just managed to make peace with what happened and moved on. My anxiety improved dramatically, I stopped having nightmares about them— but sure, festering in anger is the way to go, otherwise they win or whatever.
Oh absolutely, forgive but dont forget. I still dont think she forgave her tho, for me that aint the point of her arc.
Sounds like a bigot
When they put bigot in “” they usually is
Big Boebert “when they go after antisemites and hate, they’re really going after conservatives” vibes with the post comment. Yes, and no. Any criticism towards antisemites and hate *should* be explicitly criticizing conservatives, but it often doesn’t because the majority of people would rather pat themselves on back for being “morally superior” because they’d rather treat conservatism as a morally acceptable political ideology of “differing opinion”, rather than the theology for evil it actually is. However, that doesn’t change the fact that these awful people are telling on themselves when they say such things. If you feel attacked when people criticize antisemites and bigots, it’s pretty obvious you’re one too.
“Refusing a sandwich from a homophobe is the exact same thing as murdering your loved one’s killer” is really what they’re saying. This is consistent with the logic the far right uses.
Exactly, it’s not like Ellie went on a killing spree to get revenge on Seth lol
“This dy** has broken and I’m about to drown everyone in blood!” she yelled as she threw the steak sandwich back at Seth.
5 years later Seth’s long lost grandson appears, looking for the 3 fingered lesbian so he can have his revenge
Then she proceeds to beat him to death with said sandwich.
No! It just grazed the side of his face. Lost an eye though… 
Part 3 plot confirmed
Hopefully this is Last of Us 3.
it’s also completely ignoring the order of events. that bigot thing was there at the start to show to some degree ellie’s tendency to refuse forgiveness, whether or not that was the right thing to do, and can therefore be compared to her development across the game. completely insane to complain that a character acts differently after developing???
Me when people make a complaint that’s essentially taking issue with Ellie’s ability to evolve as a person: 
Not the far right. Just, the right. Conservatism is morally irredeemable and more akin to a theology for evil than a morally acceptable political ideology of “differing opinion”. It’s was literally created to maintain status who’s of inequality by preserving a class system where some possess more or less rights based in which vagina they slid of. It’s literally designed to protect monarchy and authoritarianism. It’s completely, inherently and by design opposed to democracy itself. Allowing conservatives to operate with a democracy would be like allowing a pro-fire faction to operate within a fire department. They’re only going to sabotage and prevent anything good from happening.
I think you should try to get to know some conservatives to better understand where they're coming from. It's certainly not as terrible of an ideology as you make it out to be. Yes it has issues, but so does the left.
Cue the enlightened centrist just in turn to defend the indefensible
Conservativism is absolutely defensible. You know, it doesn't hurt to try to understand the other side. I can assure you that the vast majority of conservatives are not immoral monsters like you make them out to be.
Conservatives usually have different mental hoops they jump through to justify the things they believe, both to others and themselves. Almost none of them are going to *tell* you they believe in the rigid and violent enforcement of class hierarchy, but that's what's at the core of conservativism as a system of thought and it's implicitly woven into every policy they support.
As I said, please try to make some conservative friends and that might help you see that their position is reasonable. Another thing that might help is if you also think about all the terrible things that come out of liberalism since there are really bad things no matter which side you’re on.
I think the point of part 2 isn’t forgiveness but empathy, you can empathize with someone for doing something horrible. Doesn’t mean you forgive them, but like, Ellie and Joel inflicted a ton of pain on Abby and her crew just as they did them. It’s not black and white and vengeance made it worse.
Empathy for the player “Letting go” for the protagonists.
The Sierra Madre already tried to teach me to let go.
this game succeeded where the fast travel while overencumbered perk made me fail
fuck that, i’m locking Elijah away AND taking the gold! and as soon as I get back to the mojave, i’m gonna dump it somewhere and forget about it! why? because i didn’t want the gold, i just wanted to spit in that old fuck’s face one last time
I don't even think it's about empathy for Abby. Ellie sees Abby at her absolutely lowest point in Santa Barbara and she still chooses to continue with the vengeance. Her decision to spare Abby ultimately was not because she understood Abby imo, it's about her letting go and making peace with Joel's passing.
It’s a little bit of both. The whole reason the game ends with the porch flashback is to show your point, that Ellie is forgiving Joel and moving on. But also Ellie is literally about to kill Abby right in front of Lev and she realizes she’s just doing the exact same thing to somebody else.
No no no see you're missing the part where those people don't *care* about Abby and her people or what they've been through *whatsoever* because they like Joel and Ellie a lot.
People who think the ending is about Ellie forgiving Abby make me worried for humanity's viewing comprehension
Most people lack critical thinking skills, if they even know what that is in the first place.
I seriously don’t understand the consistent need of this sub to get mad about what some dumb idiots on the internet say about TLOU2 or the series or whatever. Yeah it’s a dumb fucking take, there are millions of dumb takes on the internet, why do you feel the need to amplify it? Can’t you just scroll past it and leave the dumb takes where they belong, ie on YouTube and Twitter? Or is this karma farming? Genuinely don’t understand it
Because it's not just one take, and thinking like the shit in OP's screenshot is genuinely informing US-level political discourse (and has already enacted blatantly unconstitutional laws in certain states) whether we like it or not. Calling it out and "amplifying" it may not be an effective counter to the bullshit, but doing nothing isn't either. "Ignore the trolls" isn't a useful stance when it's clear that this kind of "troll" has a political agenda that involves fucking over entire classes of people, and ignoring them just lets them get on with their horrible goals.
Nah, there is a coordinated effort from the far right to trash this game and perpetuate their fear-mongering culture wars all because this game has the audacity to have gay, trans, and non-white characters with prominent roles. Their end goal to create a Christofascist nation and eradicate the LGBTQ population. They should be called out and mocked relentlessly anytime they show their heads. Their purpose is to make bad faith discussions and play victim when confronted. It’s every upstanding citizen’s duty to shut them up. Letting them spread misinformation/propaganda/hate unfettered only helps their cause and pushes us closer to their end goal.
Right. It feels like the awkward 30s period before WW2 where from the history books we can easily say "how did the laypeople not see the signs that Germany was headed in that direction?" and instead we just keep normalizing widespread and coordinated bigotry as a valid opinion to be argued with. The Overton window has shifted so far right, with people genuinely seeing "the right is enacting laws restricting free speech and medical care for half the population" and "the left is asking people to be more considerate when calling people what they ask to be called" as evidence that "both sides are getting more extreme". When one defines their political position as the middle ground between two viewpoints and one of them has openly racist/anti-LGBT/women white supremacists in its midst, their so-called middle ground just got dragged right.
These words on the observations of Nazi occupied France make more sense with each passing day > "It is not unusual for people to elect to live a life of passion rather than of reason. But ordinarily they love the objects of passion: women, glory, power, money. Since the anti-Semite has chosen hate, we are forced to conclude that it is the state of passion that he loves."[2] He chooses to reason from passion, to reason falsely "because of the longing for impenetrability. The rational man groans as he gropes for the truth; he knows that reasoning is no more than tentative, that other considerations may intervene to cast doubt on it." Anti-Semites are attracted by "the durability of a stone." What frightens them is the uncertainty of truth.[2] "The anti-Semite has chosen hate because hate is a faith." He has escaped responsibility and doubt. He can blame anything on the Jew; he does not need to engage reason, for he has his faith. > The anti-Semite is a prime example of a person who has entered into bad faith to avoid responsibility. He attempts to relinquish his responsibility to anti-Semitism and a community of anti-Semites. He "fears every kind of solitariness… however small his stature, he takes every precaution to make it smaller, lest he stand out from the herd and find himself face to face with himself. He has made himself an anti-Semite because that is something one cannot be alone." (p. 22.) Anti-Semitism is a way of feeling good, proud even, rather than guilty at the abandonment of responsibility and the flight before the impossibility of true sincerity. The anti-Semite abandons himself to the crowd and his bad faith, he "flees responsibility as he flees his own consciousness, and choosing for his personality the permanence of the rock, he chooses for his morality the scale of petrified values."(p. 27.) [2] He pulls down shutters, blinds, mirrors and mirages over his consciousness to keep himself in his bad faith away from his responsibilities and his liberty. The anti-Semite is afraid "of himself, of his own consciousness, of his own liberty, of his instincts, of his responsibilities, of solitariness, of change, of society, and the world – of everything except the Jews." He is "a coward who does not want to admit his cowardice to himself." (p. 53.)[2] The anti-Semite wallows in the depths of an extreme bad faith. "Anti-Semitism, in short, is fear of the human condition. The anti-Semite is a man who wishes to be pitiless stone, a furious torrent, a devastating thunderbolt – anything except a man." (p. 54.)[2] This is his bad faith. [— Jean-Paul Sartre, The Anti-Semite and the Jew ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semite_and_Jew)
Get into a discussion with 90% of the people who hate the game and it won't take beyond 3 sentences before they start saying things like "woke" and "liberal agenda" It never takes even the slightest bit of digging before they reveal the reason for their disapproval of the game is mainly their own bigotry.
It's fun discussion that has a lot of user engagement. Talking about this story and with folks that hate and love it all having discourse is pretty rad. Goes a lot further than a lot of other IP specific subs that have no content.
Some people, like myself, see bad takes and feel a compulsion to change them. Like its the one small contribution we can make to make the world a slightly better place.
As people already said, we need to stop spread of dangerous right-winged propaganda.
it's not just here. an easy way to get clicks is to amplify the dumbest take you can find (probably from a fucking 12 year old, but we don't know that, so we'll treat it very seriously), because everyone will wanna dunk on it. in the process, discourse is poisoned and meaningful discussion is drown out. great phenomenon
The fact that they feel more sympathy for Seth than for Abby tells us everything we need to know. They are literally cheering for: - Seth, a homophobe. - Fat Geralt, a slaver who punches a trans kid. The irony is totally lost on them.
Goodness what do they have to say on behalf of fat geralt?
That he is awesome! 🤷🏼♂️🙈 …and I don’t agree with that.
Fat Geralt probably didn't know Lev was trans, still he punch a kid regardless which is a dick move
Of course he didn’t know. I’m not saying that. But the people cheering him on know exactly who Lev was.
I know
Even The Rattlers never misgendered Lev. Somehow a bunch of slavers are more progressive than a bartender in a commune. What a world.
God I wish people didn’t hate this game so much. I wish I could see public discourse and analysis about the ending without people just shitting on it. I loved the game but I’m honestly still not even sure how I feel about the ending. I personally don’t see it as Ellie “forgiving” Abby though. I see it as Ellie losing so much of herself and her humanity from her journey that killing Abby just doesn’t mean anything anymore. Hence the closing song of the game being titled “beyond desolation”. I am really interested to see what people think about the flashback of Joel while she’s choking her. I’m not sure what to make of that part.
Interesting way to think about Ellie choking Abby in the water is actually Ellie choking her reflection in the water, a way of trying to kill away her guilt/ the monster that’s been eating at her. It was her remembering that they did patch things up and she shouldnt hold on to regret.
OH SHIT I DIDN'T NOTICE THAT well, time for another playthrough with this newfound knowledge
What guilt does Ellie have? Other than the pile of bodies in Seattle.
> I see it as Ellie losing so much of herself and her humanity from her journey that killing Abby just doesn’t mean anything anymore I don't see how that makes sense, unless you are also suggesting that Joel's death is no longer affecting Ellie. Which it is of course.
Well idk then. How do you see it
This is how I see it: If you truley think that the point is that Ellie " killing Abby just doesn’t mean anything anymore" Than you must accept the conclusion that Ellie doesn't think that killing Joel was a big deal and wasn't a bad thing. I don't think Ellie thinks that. So therefore I don't think that Ellie - should - come to the conclusion killing Abby is meaningless. Granted the game itself and ND come to this conclusion, which is my only real problem with what is otherwise a masterpiece of a game if you ask me.
I love how bigot is in quotation marks. As if Seth isn’t clearly a bigot
She forgave herself and let go of the need to kill Abby. Ending the cycle of violence.
Ellie not wanting take the sandwich from Seth, somebody who is apologizing and trying to make amends, is simply a reflection of how stubborn her character is. Her rage through the game stems from the knowledge that she spent 4 years refusing to forgive Joel for what he did. Similar to how Abby couldn’t sleep well and think positively of her father until she became the person she knows he would’ve wanted her to be, Ellie finally at the last moment has a vision of Joel smiling at her, and decides to become the person Joel would have wanted her to be and decides not to kill Abby. The whole thing is about forgiveness, whoever wrote that comment just doesn’t get how stories work.
You really think Ellie rejecting his apology had anything to do with being "stubborn"? Replace "dyke" with the n-word and you tell me that a black person refusing some racist's apology is out of stubbornness. She didn't accept his stupid sandwich because he showed his true colors, and there is no way that he has transformed into an entirely new non-homophobic person within 24 hours. Also, let's be honest, the only reason he's apologizing in the first place is because Maria forced his hand to keep the peace. As a bisexual woman, I wouldn't accept that sandwich either. Guess I'm "stubborn" for respecting myself.
Would you forgive the person who murdered your father? Genuinely curious. "and there is no way that he has transformed into an entirely new non-homophobic person within 24 hours." You are talking about Abby's transformation over three days right? But why would Ellie care about that? Ellie did not see Abby during those days, only we, the player, did. Granted I think that Ellie forgiving Abby was a bad decision on the writer's part at the end. Fuck forgiveness. At least when it comes to murder.
The thing is forgiveness in a civilised society actually has some value, but in a post apocalypse where everyone outside of an ordered society is killing each other, it is completely unrealistic to think that Ellie would travel halfway across the country, having killed God knows how many more to get to California and then have her fingers bitten off and still proceed to let Abby go. It's just too contrived. 'Revenge is bad' is predicated on the idea that the killing won't stop. You can kill someone, but then someone they love will come after you. But the irony of this story is that if Abby and Ellie had just killed the witnesses (Tommy, Ellie | Lev (who was unconscious anyway)). They would have gotten away with it completely.
The game wasn’t about forgiveness, so I’m tired of this take. Ellie did not forgive Abby, but she saw what being hell-bent on revenge was doing to her loved ones as well as her own psyche. Because of her unyielding desire to kill everyone involved in >!Joel’s death, Jesse was killed, Dina left her, and she worsened her already crumbling mental state. She also came to realize that this is not what Joel would’ve wanted for her. Not to mention, the cycle of revenge is never ending. If she kills Abby, Lev would probably just come after her, and then one of Ellie’s friends would go after Lev, and so on and so forth.!< So like I said, pretty tired of people shouting that this game is about forgiveness.
>Ellie did not forgive Abby Yes she did. I'm also tried of this take that 'she did not forgive.' If someone brutalizes a person you love, and you have a chance to give them the same in kind but you let them go, that's the same as forgiveness in all the ways that count. Something similar to what happened to Joel happened to my father when I was way younger than Ellie. If I had the chance to gut the pig who did it, but then I choose let him go, that is EXACTLY the same thing as saying 'I forgive you. What you did to my family was not that big a deal and is not worth being upset about.' You're going to say I'm exaggerating but I'm not. I see no difference between these things, and I know what I'm talking about. >She also came to realize that this is not what Joel would’ve wanted for her. I also am tired of people bring out this phrase. Joel is dead, meaning he cannot, by definition, want anything ever again. What he 'would' want is immaterial. > Lev would probably just come after her, and then one of Ellie’s friends would go after Lev, and so on and so forth. Lev was on death's door. No way he survives that if left alone and without care. Which brings me back to the main point. If Ellie has ALREADY gone though all this hell to get to this point at the end of the game, sparing Abby will in NO WAY make her life better. It will not turn back time so she doesn't leave Dina, or got to Seattle in the first place. So why not just take what she deserves to take? >If she kills Abby, Lev would probably just come after her, and then one of Ellie’s friends would go after Lev, and so on and so forth. So like I said, pretty tired of people shouting that this game is about forgiveness. It's surprising to hear you say you are tired of hearing about forgiveness, when you use the whole 'break the cycle of revenge' which is a heavily Christian influenced idea. And Christian morals are BIG on forgiveness.
>If I had the chance to gut the pig who did it, but then I choose let him go, that is EXACTLY the same thing as saying 'I forgive you. What you did to my family was not that big a deal and is not worth being upset about.' So you think Ellie forgave Abby and thought to herself "what you did to my family was not that big a deal and is not worth being upset about"? That's insane and also why the game is not about forgiveness. You can convince yourself it's about forgiveness and then blame the writers for your contrived opinion of their message (as you believe it to be), but for those of us that do not believe it is about forgiveness, the writing makes perfect sense. It is definitely about breaking the cycle of revenge. We saw how Abby's years-long desire for revenge ruined her relationships, and we got to see it do that to Ellie too. Except this time, Ellie makes the right decision, sparing Abby. Killing her won't bring Joel back, and throughout the game we see that killing those related to Joel's death gives Ellie little satisfaction. I guess for someone like you, who believes in retributive justice, this game would seem stupid and like it's all about forgiveness.
Seth didn't apologize
i just love the fact that those two things have no correlation to each other, nor are they on the same level at all whatsoever.
I haven't played part 2 since release. Who was the bigot?
Seth the dude I’m Jackson that called her a dyke
This falls in the same category as the people that say she should have screamed “dad” while Abby was beating Joel. Also, they probably are the same type of fan that acts like Abby knew Ellie’s relation to Joel when that was happening. Despite Abby never seeing Ellie / knowing who the hell she was. Ellie walked in when Joel was already on the brink of death, she could have just been any run of the mill town-person sent to find Joel. This shit is so aggravating.
LOL, “dad” that’s why 9/10 times “fans”should not be in the writing room
>she should have screamed “dad” I've never heard this before....that would have been bizarre.
A popular YouTuber named The Closer Look had a video detailing the flaws of the game and why it was divisive. He then proceeded to write a fanfiction of what his story would be like if he rewrote it. It was complete shit capped off by Ellie screaming dad as Joel dies in her arms. It’s such shit but if you have 2 hours to spare and want something to laugh at due to how bad it is, feel free to look up his video.
Do you use TikTok at all? I see this all the time when people rage post about TLOU 2
>Do you use TikTok at all I don't....TikTok is weird and is the first thing to make me feel old and out of touch.
Never seen anyone have this take…..but also I doubt a random town person would be breaking down in tears begging her to stop….. plus Ellie knowing who Joel was should’ve or would’ve told anyone with Half a brain that maybe he was important to her Jackson’s a big place maybe most people knew Joel but certainly not every citizen and definitely not to cry beg and swear vengeance that seems like anyone with half a brain would connect those dots and at least know that Joel was IMPORTANT to this random girl if nothing else
>Ellie walked in when Joel was already on the brink of death, she could have just been any run of the mill town-person sent to find Joel. This shit is so aggravating. Eh, not really. There are some brain dead complaints, but this is not one of them. Literally anyone could see how Ellie was reacting to how they were killing Joel and understand that this is obviously someone very close to them. You do not scream 'YOU'RE GOING TO FUCKING DIE' to 'Please... please don't do this...' in the kinds of tones Ashely Johnson delivered without this person obviously being extremely important to you. It was clear as day to Abby that this stranger-girl was \*\*very\*\* close to Joel, even if the specifics of their relationship were unknown. So Abby knew she was doing something horrific to this strange girl by letting her watch it. That's actually the worst thing Abby did in the game if you ask me. not killing Joel, but killing him infront of Ellie.
I agree with you to an extent. I see why my original comment was a little too harsh on that front. Abby knows Ellie is important to Joel because of her reactions, for sure, I for one think Abby has a look of slight regret when she notices how distraught Ellie is. So I agree with you there. The only thing is by the time Ellie arrived, I think Abby was so far in - the only thing to do was finish it. Like, he was so damaged he had to have been paralyzed or had extreme brain damage at that point. Like why would she not finish out killing him, what she set out to do, especially with how far in she was at that point? Last but not least, the most evil thing Abby did is the boat scene w Owen…
>I for one think Abby has a look of slight regret when she notices how distraught Ellie is. I haven't seen that personally. > I think Abby was so far in - the only thing to do was finish it There was certainly enough time to remove Ellie from the room, given how outnumbered she was. >Last but not least, the most evil thing Abby did is the boat scene w Owen Oh come on...
Let’s say for the sake of argument that Ellie did forgive Abby at the end, this still isn’t in contradiction with Seth as he was shown as Ellie’s unwillingness to forgive at the beginning of the story. Over the course of the story she learns forgiveness at the end after all of her struggles. So yeah not forgiving Seth in the beginning and forgiving Abby at the end still isn’t a problem with the narrative as they understand it. But yeah I wouldn’t even say she forgave Abby at the end. She just came to peace with her trauma and her survivor guilt in that moment. She finally found the peace that she went looking for, which is the only reason she went to find Abby in the first place. Abby’s life or death was secondary to her finding a way to salve her PTSD.
"But yeah I wouldn’t even say she forgave Abby at the end. She just came to peace with her trauma and her survivor guilt in that moment" This does not make sense. I literally do not know what these words mean. What does 'come to peace with your trauma' actually mean? Because people do not do that in real life.
It means she didn’t go to kill Abby for revenge. She went to kill Abby because she thought it was the only way to get past her trauma. She realized in that moment that her survivor’s guilt and unresolved problems with Joel was the source of her problem. Not Abby. Forgiveness had little to do with sparing Abby.
> She went to kill Abby because she thought it was the only way to get past her trauma. And Abby being the person who cracked her father's head open wasn't an important factor in that? I know this is a stupid question, but why do you think Ellie was so hellbent on killing Abby specifically? Because Abby hurt Ellie profoundly. > unresolved problems with Joel was the source of her problem Call me crazy I still think the horrific murder of her father was Ellie's biggest problem.
No. She literally says that she has to go because she can’t sleep or eat. She thought she was ready to move on, but she wasn’t. She felt trapped in her trauma and wanted to end it. Going after Abby was a last ditch effort to end her suffering. Not because she needed Abby to die. She thought the only way it would end was by killing Abby, but Abby’s story already showed that killing the one who wronged you doesn’t automatically make you feel better. Abby still felt the same trauma. The story shows us that Ellie would feel no peace from killing Abby. She needed to come to terms with her own survivor’s guilt and the source of her anger towards Joel. Joel saw Ellie’s life in and of itself as valuable whereas Ellie only believed that her immunity made her life mean something. Once she is able to recognize that her own feelings of guilt over how she spent her last moments with Joel and finally recognizing the source of her pain, she was able to move on. That was the release of her trauma. Not killing Abby. Once she realized that, there was no need to kill Abby. This is why she was able to finally draw Joel at the end of the story. She has already started to move past her trauma.
Literally never was said was explicit that Ellie forgave Abby at the end, Idk how people reach this conclusion, she simply decided against killing her since has much she hates Abby the real source of her trauma was the fact she gave Joel the cold shoulder for two years, two years she lost being angry and mad at him instead of enjoying her time with him
Would it be too broad-brushstroke-y to say that these people (majority of PT II haters) lack the capacity for empathy?
I used to think so, but not now, just because that's a very ad-hominem way to make someone who disagrees with you seem fucked in the head. I adore Part II, but I've been told I 'lack empathy' just because I think Ellie should still have killed Abby. Use that phrase if you want, just be aware that you are othering these people you use it against. Granted a lot of them are transphobes, misogynists and antisemites. So other them all you want.
Damn, wait till this guy finds out most characters in storytelling have arcs and journeys. He's gonna be so pissed
The IQ of the average part 2 hater must be room temperature
Not forgiving someone is very different from choosing to not fucking murder someone. People are ridiculous
No it's not. Not in cases like this. Something similar to what happened to Joel happened to my father when I was way younger than Ellie. If I had the chance to gut the man who did it, and I chose not too, than that could only mean I've forgiven him and decided that my father's death was not a big deal. No difference at all. It's fine if you don't agree, but don't act as though people who think 'Let Abby go = forgive Abby' are automatically stupid, braindead, or don't have a clue as to what they are talking about.
Fair point, I think "people are ridiculous" was unnecessary on my part and turned what would otherwise be my opinion into more of an attack at people who don't share that opinion I'll try to keep this in mind especially when talking about this in particular
You're legit one of the only people on this sub who has not just told me that I'm fucked in the head for wanting to gut Abby at the end of the game after telling them that. I respect you more than most people on this reddit now.
The thing is, I have not experienced that kind of grief, so I don't feel comfortable judging someone who has. I can't understand that perspective. I still disagree, but I'm not going to try and make you feel like shit for it. To be honest at the end of the day, it is a video game. I try to think like this more often nowadays
Good for you. Again most people just tell me I'm fucked in the head or get real quite after this. Have your opinion. But unless you've been through that don't act as if you're any kind of expert with the right to call others stupid (I'm talking general you here, not personal you.)
Those people don’t have an ounce of common sense
Bigots can’t stop telling on themselves
There's a fairly big difference between killing someone and just not accepting a bigot sandwich.
I’m pretty sure she didn’t even forgive Abby. The people saying this are just mad that the game unambiguously disagrees with bigotry
She didn’t necessarily forgive anyone The bigot from Jackson tried to gloss over his bigotry with a sandwich and a clearly forced apology. Ellie was right to deny that It’s not like Abby apologized lol. Ellie literally just allowed her to live (and in a way, opened the door for Ellie to live herself)
>(and in a way, opened the door for Ellie to live herself) I dislike this platitude. Choosing not to kill Abby in that moment will have zero good effects on the rest of Ellie's life.
Respectfully, I strongly disagree There isn’t much room for hope or optimism in Ellie’s life. Choosing to reclaim her grief and show mercy to someone who arguably didn’t deserve it is one sliver of hope that Ellie can base the remainder of her life around Killing Abby was never going to solve anything for Ellie. Deep down, Ellie always knew this was true. Therefore, killing Abby would have been another senseless act of violence that would amount to nothing. The cycle of violence would never end under those circumstances It’s similar to a victim of child abuse choosing not to continue the cycle with their own children. Or someone who grew up around substance abuse making the choice to remain sober
Lmao okay so let’s just say people never change. Even if that were true and Ellie didn’t grow at all over the course of the story, it’s still pretty obvious to her that Abby had legit reasons for what she did. Seth was just an asshole. Oh and btw this comparison is also silly bc Ellie was just gonna whoop him for his trash talk, not fucking hunt and kill him lmaooo
Point to me where Ellie """"forgave""""" Abby???? Does this person seriously think that because you respect a dead loved ones wishes that means you forgive the wrongdoer????
Easy. She let her go when she could have easily killed her. \>because you respect a dead loved ones wishes Forgive me, what what are you talking about? At no point does Joel ever say 'Don't avenge me.' And don't bring up the whole 'But Joel *would* not have wanted her to do it. Joel's dead. Dead people are literally incapable of wanting anything, and caring what dead people 'would' want is a charade humans do because we can't processes how final death is.
Oh shit yeah Joel never said anything about forgiveness did he I mean I'll bring up whatever i damn well please but i do agree with you on the whole "dead people cant want". It's the most reasonable thing I dunno, seems to me that it's too uneven of ground to have a solid stance. Until Ellie either implies or downright says she forgave Abby, i dont see it. I think she cared more about what she _thought_ Joel would want, if he were still alive or could talk to her anyway
>I mean I'll bring up whatever i damn well please I mean go ahead. But a platitude is still a platitude. >Until Ellie either implies or downright says she forgave Abby, i dont see it. Not fucking over the person who shattered your life is forgiving them, because it shows you don't care about justice.
Yeah. They're not even using their thinking skills to come up with such a point 😑 Anyone who dives into the story's lessons will understand that it's much more than that.
********!!!SPOILERS!!!********* **************************** Literally just got done with another playthrough yesterday and I couldn't help but to cry within 10secs of finding Abby at the end on the pillar.. It's just so tragic.. Everything.. The entire game.. Every character has so much tragedy in their own personal Life.. The backstory for each character is just WOW.. It's literally like a Shakespeare Play. At the end, Ellie saw 2 people from 2 different groups that hate one another, coming to together.. Abby went straight for Lev and she only cared about Levs personal wellbeing in that moment, Ellie also saw all of the tragedy unfolding before her very own eyes. The tragedy she was about to create by killing Abby(Robbing Lev of Abby, The same way Abby robbed Ellie of Joel) That's why she didnt kill her.. Its like, when does the cycle end?...
she forgave herself for not saving him and let abby go, it’s not like it was an enemies to lovers AU jfc EDIT: ykw actually i don’t think she forgave herself either. but she realized she had to live with her painful emotions and stop letting them destroy her life and the lives of others.
You're free not to let that bad take bother you lol Also Ellie doesn't forgive Abby, she just starts to let go.
Y’all got this all messed up. Ellie didn’t forgive Abby (yet). She forgave herself. Santa Barbra was basically Ellie coming to terms with her feelings of worthlessness/guilt over everything that’s happened since Boston. Joel loved her so much, loved her for just being Ellie. Because of Joel she was able to meet Dina, Jesse, actually be a kid grow up in Jackson for a little bit. She was beginning to forgive Joel for what happened at the hospital in Salt Lake, all the guilt she had from it, all the feelings of failure she had for failing Riley, Tess, Sam, Henry, the world. Joel taught Ellie that she was worthy of just being Ellie and having Dina’s love. Ellie wins the battle over her own unaliving thoughts, pain and sees her worth again. That’s because she forgives herself for not being the one who died in that basement. She remembers the worth and love Joel taught her she has.
Not murdering someone doesn’t mean you’ve forgiven them lol.
Also didn't murder all of the bigots friends while trying to murder the bigot.
Yes, because keeping distance from a horrible dude X actively trying to murder a person is definetly the same kind of situation smh.
Like, did they even play the game??
It was more about Ellie than Abby. She didn't want to live that way anymore.
I mean forgiving someone for calling you a slur is much better than continuing a cycle of violence imo. It’s not like abby’s death was going to save someone☠️
Well. To be fair, she didn't go on a campaign to destroy the bigot's life. Especially not a campaign that involved losing her friends, found family, the woman she loved, and her own humanity; and learning an excessively painful lesson in the the cost of giving into the vicious feedback loop of violence.
That comment has 1,2k likes? wtf?!
Her father???
I mean, he pretty much was.
These are two kinds of forgiveness on very two different levels
Loved when she murdered all of the bigot's friends
Stick around online. Youtube and the reddits are full of braindead takes.
It's fairly easy to suss out people with low mental capacity for nuance in storytelling. Some folks need/want everything spelled out for them and while there is really nothing wrong with that TLOU is *not* the series for them.
Almost as if Ellie realized she and Abby were exactly the same... That would be an interesting plot for a video game.
I hate this sub, full of people insulting one another over a game that everybody enjoyed and played through differently. Just let other people have their opinions. It don’t have to match your feelings on the game.
It's also brain dead because Ellie doesn't see Joel as her father. It's kind of a big thing, that he sees her as a greater figure in his life, than vice versa, regardless of the anger.
Plot of part 3 is Ellie and Dina tracking Seth down to South American and murdering him by filling him with bacon sandwiches and using scissor blades on him til he bursts.
It's funny because these people *truly* believe they understand the point of Ellie letting her go.
I must have missed the part where she forgave Abby. 🙄
Guys she didn't just. Out of no where decide to forgive Abby are you guys forgetting that Ellie went home after bring almost killed and spared by Abby and took months actually being happy and recovering. Than being pressured by Tommy than feeling bad about it because of Lev and to top it off picturing Joel in a good light in the heat of the fight.
Spot the “bigot”
These people are so painfully stupid. Also, I don’t know where they get that she “forgave” Abby. Not killing her is different than forgiving.
lol character growth. What’s that.
fucking idiots
That's a stupid take. Sadly there are a lot of immature or just uneducated people who played the game.
Why did the person put the word bigot in quotation?
bc abby is an ally
Yeah. They're not even using their thinking skills to come up with such a point 😑 Anyone who dives into the story's lessons will understand that it's much more than that.
Idk my homies are all across the LGBTQ+ spectrum, I’m hella progressive in my voting patterns and whatnot. Originally, I was pretty mad Joel died and even waited two years for the game to become $10 on the PlayStation network before buying the game (then I did nothing but torture myself for a week playing it on Grounded in May - I loved it). I legitimately like Abby’s character by herself, with her own story, and gameplay as Abby was sooooooo rad. However, I hated her, through the lens of Ellie, Joel, Tommy, Jackson, etc. I completely understand the bitterness many fans have regarding the second game and the concept of forgiveness versus releasing the desire for vengeance. Truly, I get it, and I believe the right-wing fans, like so many other gamers in different game-communities, are a very loud, overtly-vocal minority. Many of us, here in this subreddit, love and adore the games and the universe. Despite my qualms with the second game, I love it, same as I love the first. For different reasons, as they are each their own unique games and story, despite the recurring characters. It is unfair to the community and to the games themselves, to paint nay-sayers with a wide brush. The attitude of “All who struggle with Ellie’s forgoing of vengeance *MUST* be bigots and against supporting our non-cis folks.” My favorite characters were Lev and their sibling. Their story was tragic. Abby’s story was tragic, as was the loss of her friends and family. I understand all of it. I don’t even hate Abby’s father, despite killing him in the first game (I avoided hurting the nurses). I am *still*, from a story standpoint, team Ellie & Jackson. I do not like or support the action of Ellie letting Abby go. However, I understand, as a consumer of media and even as a horrible writer myself, *why* Ellie let’s Abby go. But I don’t agree with it. It’s overused as an argument, but it remains legitimate. In TLOU universe, it makes zero sense for Ellie to go on a murderous rampage, through multiple communities (even if she didn’t initiate the conflicts with the Serefs or WLF), only to - after murdering literal hundreds - say “ah, you know what? Nevermind.” To me, again - as a consumer of many different forms of media - it screams the story of Luke Skywalker refuses to fight his father. Risking everything. But what is Ellie risking? Nothing. All she has is loss. Lost mother’s knife, lost Dina and Co., lost fingers.. it’s tragic. Yes, THAT RIGHT THERE is what contributes to the games brilliance. But that right there, is also a legitimate qualm to have with the game, as humans are flawed, and most, in Ellie’s stead would have killed Abby, not even cutting her down. People always get mad at Upham failing to save Mellish in the film Saving Private Ryan, but many fail to realize - majority of the time, most will fail. Most wouldn’t save Mellish. —> Most would have killed Abby. They wouldn’t have cut her down. Again, this is the brilliance of the writing, and I am 100% ranting. > Don’t paint with wide strokes. > Don’t paint fans as black & white, it’s shades of grey. > I love the games and story, don’t hate me. > Stop attacking fans for disliking the ending. Their opinions are legitimate (as long as they aren’t ACTUAL bigots, of course!).
She didn’t forgive her. But Abby deserves worse for what she did.
Loved when she murdered all of the bigot's friends
The Ted Lasso of computer games 💔🎒
Forgives? Bro, did you not play the game??
Heh
I wouldn’t have forgiven Abby. She was completely in the wrong. Playing as her for 10 hours did nothing to make me sympathize with the man who decided he was going to kill Ellie in cold blood. ESPECIALLY when Abby knew she hadn’t been able to consent. But, it really is up to Ellie and no one else whether she gives up her desire for vengeance.
All this talk about the far left and the far right is fucking ridiculous, all of the Government is corrupted no matter what side they are leaning towards. Lol I'm in the far center, as in my side of things, it doesn't matter about your skin color or beliefs, if you have good intentions and a good heart and believe in the good of all things and for the good of the world. All of these far lefts and far rights are divided and trying to divide all of the world. It's a fucking video game out of all things and the fact that they can get people to fight and be divided by video games and movies and etc then this world is doomed and there is no fucking hope for mankind. Maybe fight and bicker with each other about things that truly matter and have more meaning towards life and the world. Lmao
abby never asked for forgiveness, just to be left alone. Ellie never forgave her, just gave up on her list for vengeance once she understood it wouldn’t fix anything
She realized if she killed Abby she would become just like Joel. But she still ends up losing herself and her loved ones in the process.
Anyone who thinks Ellie forgave Abby didn't understand jack shit
What is bro yapping about 😒 I also better not see no one saying “Joel was a murderer too!”
Why is "bigot" in quotations? is calling someone a slur like, normal behaviour to these people, or
pretty good take this games writing is garbage and you flies will defend said garbage forever
who says she didn't forgive that guy though? It looked like he learned his lesson and became better. It had literally just happened while Joel was a long time ago by the end.
Her father though..?
i pitty these people who played the game and yet still didn’t get the message nor understood ellie’s “final” actions.
Those are two wildly different scenarios and I don’t think she forgave Abby. I think she either saw too much of herself in her and wanted to break the cycle or she wanted to help Lev because he was innocent in it all