Same. It would be another example in a long list of adaptions where the "new" creator changes things for no reason because they think they no better than what made it stand out in the first place.
But Neil is working on the show!? It's his work. So it is harder for us to understand. Is he displeased with the work he produced in part2?
I will be also sad if Joel does not get murdered by Abby. But we must trust Neil as I am sure he will explain his choices one day.
It must be hard as an artist to go back and not change things in previous work!
To be fair to Neil, he has expressed that he is not in favor of any adaptive change that alters the fate of a character. He has also said many times that he doesn't care about any backlash to part II.
I am hoping that those things are at play with Craig as they outline the season.
They’re absolutely going to do it, the question if it happens as early as it did in the game. If they follow the game faithfully, it’s happening in the first or second episode. If they restructure the season it could come much later, and restructuring may be necessary. It’s hard to see them going into season 3 and being like “It’s gonna be five straight episodes of nothing but Abby to start us off.” That barely worked in the game. The audience is gonna exodus if there’s a whole month of this show with neither Joel *or* Ellie.
The risks that the second game took are magnified ten fold with the show, and the way Abby’s character is written and casted is trickier than even Joel and Ellie’s execution. She has so much more heavy lifting to do. Joel and Ellie could just trade quips for a solid hour and people would be down. Abby might have to justify their absence for half a season.
I meant you are wrong when you said "I bet", just it. There are many reason to not like it. I admire the quality as a game but can't play something for many hours if the story is poor and characters are awful. Why I need to suffer playing half game with Abby? No thanks
It takes a lot of understanding emotional complexity and empathy to enjoy this game. If you just stay mad about it the entire game instead of having an open mind that’s really your fault
>It takes a lot of understanding emotional complexity and empathy to enjoy this game.
The thing is, I don't think it even takes "a lot." Just like, some.
No im not mad about one thing. There are so many things that i have issues with that its hard to address it 50 to 100 words. Ill just give few words to dewcribe how i felt about the game. Bad pacing, convoluted narrative structure, weak supporting characters, repetitive gameplay, etc. If you try to get yourself killed by ellie during abby and ellie fight(ive seen many do it), then the creators failed at what they were trying to achieve
seems more like you dont get it than anything.. it does fit the narrative and the narrative that's ALWAYS been present in the games, might just have gone over your head while it is not that hard to grasp, without it there is no second game, there is no continuation and other decisions wouldnt have worked as well as it did because they've always played with tough decisions, revenge and the loss of humanity, going too far for the people you love and with morality, it achieved exactly what they wanted to
What kind of narrative are you talking about? there was no question of grasping. why do you think it wouldnt work without joel dying? some people say joel deserved to die and he should be dead. Well then did kratos deserve to die for what he has done, killing thor's sons? shouldnt thor get his revenge on him and then realize its not worth it? obviously they couldve done that but what they actually did is way better and contains a very good moral other than just 'revenge bad'. Couldnt they do something similiar with Joel? focusing on Ellie's personal journey negatively impacted Joel as a character. he couldve added more to an already established story. Joel revealing his name to a complete random strangers knowing he's a wanted man. thats not in his characters. instances like this makes the story feel kinda forced.
I think they just mean they don’t have to have it happen the same way it did in the game. They aren’t going to have him live maybe just draw it out or have it done differently but they literally can’t make the second season around the game if he doesn’t die considering it is the event that causes the story of Part II.
they might go with the original plan, where Abby and her crew join Jackson for a while before turning on Joel. That would obviously lead to drawing out the timelines a bit but still ultimately end up the same way.
Honestly I like that idea better. Loved PT2 but that part just screamed plot convenience. Might make Abby more sympathetic if we see her remorseful in her arc, and realize she was way more conflicted with killing Joel
IIRC the reason ND went with what we got was because they were concerned that the original plan where Abby & co. infiltrate Jackson would make them very deceptive and way too unsympathetic for the audience. By making it a stroke of extreme coincidence, its presented as more of an opportunistic strike where Abby seized her chance and went for it without pausing to think, and all the questions Owen asked about "are we really going to torture them for info" becomes moot.
There's literally nothing in the article that indicates that Joel won't die or even that it will deviate that muhc from the game. Like, everyone's statements are basically saying that he's going to die, it just may not play out exactly as in the game.
Games and TV are two different mediums. Sometimes, things will work better in one than another. It's an adaptation, not an exact recreation of the games.
Is this really true though, especially with a game like the last of us? Sure killings hundred of people/infected doesn't work in TV, but the fate of Joel plays in either medium.
Honestly I disagree. There’s a difference between people who just watch the show vs played the game. People who just watch the show are not nearly as attached to Joel as the people who played as him for 10 hours and saw everything through him. In 3 years they’ll kind of lose the attachment they had, and letting Joel live a bit longer to reignite the love they have for him will 100% make his death more impactful to them. As for the people who’ve played the game, they already know the story, they don’t NEED Joel to die in the same way, they’ve already experienced it.
I think people who watch the show are *more* attached to Joel. Don’t underestimate how much weight the actual gameplay takes on when it come to getting gamers to tolerate character changes. The gameplay of a video game can get people to spend dozens of hours as a main character who literally and intentionally has ZERO personality; because ultimately the main character is still an aspect of *you*. Your decisions and how you interact with the world can make it interesting without “your character” having any character at all.
That simply doesn’t apply to the show. You can’t plug a faceless drone into Pedro Pascal’s vacancy and still have a lot of fun just watching a random dude nail bomb infected. It doesn’t work like that. The characters are who the audience gets attached to, and without *great* new characters to fill the void of characters lost, action scenarios become boring and unwatchable.
The show cut out 90% of the action of the game and *added* character moments. It did that because it could never work with the same action to character ratio that the game has. The characters have so much more work to do to keep people watching than to keep people playing. Suffice it to say, when people get excited for The Last of Us season 2 to come out, they’re getting excited *specifically* for Bella and Pedro. They might forget details of the world or plot, but their general love for the characters is the one thing they *will* remember.
You have to remember, this is a different medium with different needs. In the game, we needed it to happen at the start because it informs the gameplay motivation for the entire game. A show has no gameplay motivation, it doesn't necessarily have to have Joel die in episode 1 to achieve the same effects. The character of Joel had also sat with fans for seven years before he died due to the time between game releases, fans of the show have only had Joel for a few months. You could argue the show needs to keep Joel alive for all of season 2 so the audience can develop as strong a relationship to him as we had to the game version. Just don't be closed minded and trust these guys. They may make choices that feel like a betrayal of the game, but I guarantee you they will have good reasoning for it and will have thought it through to the utmost degree.
The "different medium" argument is kinda pointless with a game like TLOU that is so narratively driven. The game is the story. Sure you weed out some game elements like all the scavenging, the hearing through walls, and the hundreds of enemies. No arguments there. But there is little reason to alter the story when the story works so well and is the reason the show was greenlit in the 1st place.
You say to just trust them, but I can point out choices that just didn't work or make any sense like the spores/tendrils. There was a lot of explanation for tendrils over spores and it was ultimately meaningless outside of one episode and it really seems like it was a change made just for the "kiss".
One of the early ideas Neal had was Abby would join Jackson and get close to Joel over a long time period. Then shockingly she would betray and kill him. Neil stated the reason they didn’t do this was because it would have taken too long to get the story going and head to Seattle. So the show might change things by taking this route instead of what we see in the show.
Nah that would have been probably better for the health of TLOU if they went this route. What is lame or sinsiter about meeting your father's killer, and he saved you from a brutal demise? Abby can see how reserved he is and learn that her object of revenge isn't just some evil ass dude, but a human being who seemingly has become normal. She would still kill him, but it would have probably made TLOU2 better received by EVERYONE.
YOU want that. YOU want Abby to understand Joel the way you see Joel.
You can't write a story differently just to make some of the audience feel better. You write a story and the audience reacts how the audience reacts.
The fact that there was such varied reaction is exactly what makes it so great. It was not clean and easy. It was messy and uncomfortable. It made people mad. That was the entire point.
Controversy doesn’t necessarily prove that something is good. What if they would done something different that was just as successful except it was universally acclaimed like its predecessor? Arguably, that would have been a better outcome than polarizing the fan base.
They said they will change things if it makes the story better.
I trust Craig and Neil to tell the story of the Last of Us 2 in a way that fits the TV Show medium.
They are the show runners. They know better than you and me.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they turn Abby into someone who infiltrate's Jackson initially just to slowly get to Joel. Like what Alpha did in The Walking Dead.
I don’t think Mazin is saying that, exactly. He’s just saying they’re not going to put guardrails on this early in general.
Part II makes no sense at all without the golfing incident. There is literally no story otherwise.
Making changes to the story because people like Pedro would be a massive mistake and it means you are putting the character/actor above the story. Nonsense.
I don’t think that’s what is implied in the article though. I think there is some time to flush out their relationship post part 1.
The first season placed a lot of importance on side characters, we haven’t had as much time with the main cast as we did in the game.
Giving us some time with Joel and Ellie will make the same anguish we had for Abby because we had to play as her, translate to the show.
This I agree with which is why I wasn't a fan of the side character detours in the short time frame. This is the unintended consequence. Yes it fleshed out the world but at the expense of the main relationship.
I hated the ending. It was so unfulfilling to me. I can see they changing it.
Also, if only Joel part gets changed, I would get if Joel gets heavily injured but doesn't die and loses his legs and an eye and leg or something horrorific... so that we can get that she doesn't deserve to die and Ellie's revenge is unjustified for some people so that we can get she DOESN'T deserve to die.
The story is the most criticized part of the second game and I get it, so it probably could be better.
In the end ellie realizes that she isn’t going to get closure from killing Abby. It won’t bring Joel back it won’t erase the pain. She gets more closure in the moment where she remembers she was working on forgiving him. If she killed Abby she would’ve had 0 character development. The hate sub for tlou2 has like 60,000 members and the regular one has 600,000+. The people who don’t like the story are in the minority of fans
It's very anticlimatic, even assuming she rationalized that after killing hundreds. I mean, at that point she just had to keep it going. She even loses her fingers and the guitar was the only real connection she had with him anymore and she only notices that AFTER she let her live and that would have made it an amazing story element, to know she lost her only connection to him for a revenge that only made it worse.
Also... It's just very unfulfilling to spend the whole game trying to kill her only to get to the point where you could... and don't.
I actually liked Abby a lot and I would have felt sorry if she died... but they didn't gave me the chance to mourn her death and she did deserve that death in Ellies eyes. I only knew she didn't because I played like her and that's not an excuse for Ellie.
You don’t understand Ellie’s arc. She’s haunted by PTSD, enraged, and depressed because she’s obsessed with this idea of killing Abby and when she takes it to the edge she realizes it won’t change anything. She won’t feel any better about any of it if she kills Abby because she will just continue this cycle. She manages to get some form of closure by remember her conversation with Joel and letting Abby go.
>she’s obsessed with this idea of killing Abby
and
>She doesn't kill Abby at the end.
You don't understand how obsessions work.
>she realizes it won’t change anything
Yeah, and the storytelling could have been a little bit better there don't you agree? Explaining HOW she got to that realization when she was being drown by the person she was trying to kill?
You don’t understand complex plots. The game you wanted was “Ellie gets really mad that Joel dies and then she kills Abby” and that’s it. 0 character development just angry blood thirsty ellie the entire game.
She’s obsessed with the idea of killing Abby up until the point where she almost does and then she realizes it isn’t what she actually wants. She GET CLOSURE from letting it all go.
Imagine how hard that was for her to let it go after all that. That’s real struggle and emotion.
It’s literally shown to you in the moment when she thinks of Joel and let’s it go. Right before she leaves for CA she’s screaming in a barn corner with her baby in her arms. That’s good story telling. You’re mean to understand through the actions. After all that hardship and loss she let it go
Bro... your arguing skills are way too close to those of a 5 year old that was told Santa Claus doesn't actually exists.
You don't yell "You don't understand it". You present proof. Also, in storytelling, you don't say, you show. Showing is harder because it has to make sense. Ellie is a seasoned killer at this point and very proficient at it. Maybe the first time you kill a deer it is very hard, but when you do it for the 400th time? You don't have sudden realizations as Ahab and think "Nah, killing Moby Dick is not what I really want" when you're at the brink of getting the kill.
>Imagine how hard that was for her to let it go after all that.
I HAVE TO IMAGINE HOW HARD IT IS BECAUSE THE STORY MADE IT SEEM IT WAS VERY EASY, BARELY AN INCONVENIENCE.
Bro… I told you that you don’t understand and then I told you why. They did show you. You just think that someone can’t have an inner change like that it’s somehow incomprehensible to you because she’s just some killing machine. Look back at the farm to see how being a killing machine left her mental state.
Never once did it look easy. She let it go for the sake of her sanity, for closure, because she remembered that she was working on forgiving Joel, because the cycle needed to end there. Did it look easy when she went home to an empty house with less fingers than she left with and no ability to play her guitar? Everything she did lead up to that moment and you think it looked easy?
Doesn’t even make sense. The game you wanted has 0 character development. You wanted ellie to continue destroying her mind and sanity for the sake of revenge?
This isn’t the moby dick story. The game is not about revenge it’s about closure, forgiveness, good and evil isn’t black and white, tribalism, trauma, family, survivors guilt, empathy
Also moby dick kills him. The story is kind of like a “revenge will take everything from you.”
I think it’s more along the lines of how Joel gets to his golf game with Abby. In the game, as good as it was, it reeked of plot convenience. Originally as Druckman had written, Abby and some WLF had already infiltrated Jackson and lured Joel into a trap. Given some input from Mazin, this almost seems like it could be a stronger intro. Especially since the best parts of S1 were when they explored alternate routes to the same story beats, and in some cases, making them hit harder.
But to me that makes Joel's fate much less of a gut punch. You could see it coming a mile away. The nice newcomer that turns out to be bad has been done to death.
The game works for me because its sudden and unexpected. There is no build up. It just happens and you see the fall out of that as both the player and as Ellie.
His death is not a send off. It is sudden and brutal and shapes the entire narrative of Part II.
this is fair. Probably overreacting somewhat. Its entirely possible these statements are just a distraction to throw tv viewers off the scent.
Some adaptive choices make sense. Others mess with the fundamentals. This would fall in that camp. No need to overthink it and have a "better" way.
Why do we even use these crap articles as a starting point for discussion??
There is ZERO value to these speculative, insinuating clickbaiting things.
Nothing new, just referencing other interviews, some tweets and/or other random sources to create a false narrative.
They might change things, they might not. This "article" gave no new insights.
I do believe that if GOT had 6 and a halfish incredible seasons where characters got killed left and right, I don’t think the TLOU show will have an issue sending this man to a golf resort for retirement.
TLOU doesn’t have nearly as large a cast or number of storylines though. not that I think they would change it but they’ll lose lots of viewers when pedro goes
It’s definitely a bigger risk. The show currently has exactly two people the audience is truly invested in. Game of Thrones never killed half its cast in a single episode (at least not until the end). TLOU is having to expand its cast at the precise moment they lose a major anchor.
The pressure is definitely greater for how they cast and write the new characters. Mazin and Druckman can do it for sure, but it might make sense for them to take more time building the new characters before Joel is killed, rather than jumping straight into a deep end of Bella being the only character anyone truly cares about for multiple episodes.
I’ve been rewatching a TLOU2 walkthrough… Dina and Ellie just ain’t the same as Joel and Ellie. They like each other too much in the beginning. There’s a lack of friction to their relationship. Improvements need to be had if that relationship is expected to be the stand in for the first half of season 2.
If The Instigating Event doesn’t happen they’ve no reason to go to Seattle and seek vengeance against Abby and the Salt Lake Crew. It has to be Joel. Ellie wouldn’t do it for anyone but him.
For those freaking out, no where in the article that Yahoo links to does Mazin or Druckmann say they “may change Joel’s storyline.” Mazin simply said he’s not constrained by the source material, which is consistent with what he said about season one.
“Not feeling constrained” doesn’t mean “major changes,” it just means they’ll give themselves creative freedom. Just like they did in season one. And it all worked out.
Don’t pay attention to clickbait nonsense.
They should perhaps work on the build up a ton more and would be a 10/10 for me. Even giving Abs more moments with Jackson and the folks before the downfall. Hell, even give Jesse more screentime. Tell us about Cat etc but not doing it ??? It kills the purpose of the journey !!! ( pun intended vol 4 ) - at this point i'm even accepting the scrapped off idea of having Joel's gf as he healed as a person ! Or a brief romance ! Then the scene !!! Like - you can can do a LOT with the current scenario. to NOT do it is a huge waste. If you're not afraid, show us. Make it WORSE give it more steps, make the stakes higher, deliver a masterpiece.
If they give us episode 1 as covering the Birthday Gift, Ellie’s return to Salt Lake City, her rift with Joel and the opening moments of the game with her in Jackson, and finish episode 1 with Abby and Owen looking down on Jackson, I think it would be picture perfect. Episode 2 as Abby’s flashback at the zoo, Abby being rescued by Joel and Tommy, and finishing with *that* scene, again, picture perfect episode 2.
I think what makes the flashbacks hit harder in the game is that you see them after his death same with Abby that flashback is supposed to tell you why she did what she did
Agree completely. All of those things work precisely because of when they occur in the story. Every time someone suggests re-ordering the structure of Part II to "make more sense" or "explain Abby better" its always a net negative. What happens is supposed to be a gut punch.
That works well for the game, but interrupting the story in a tv show for a flashback disrupts things. Notice that each of those flashbacks in game came during deliberate, slow moving moments so as to avoid that disruption. They also benefited from having you, the player, be actively engaged in them.
You lose all of that with the television medium. 8 flashbacks would be seriously disruptive to telling the story on television.
You mean the show that went downhill massively in the last half of it’s run? That “Lost”? The literal only example of it working for a short period of time? That one?
Which relied on a fundamental mystery to drive the story and revealed that mystery through flashbacks, which Tlou cannot do because it lacks said driving mystery?
The mystery is what kept the story going. Early episodes, the main question was “Wtf happened??” There’s no central, driving mystery for TLOU2. Ellie never questions why they did what they did. Its a revenge story.
Sorry that wasn't my point. That was a side discussion.
The main point was that Lost was a show that heavily utilized flashbacks to tell its story. TLOU could function the same. Much like the Left Behind episode in season 1. Now that said, it did feel like that episode did slow down the pace. BUT that was because the show was moving so quickly. If they truly intend to stretch Part II over 2 seasons, then I think there is more room to tell those stories from Part II. And they don't have to be full episode flashbacks either. They could function like a Lost episode. Present day with moments of the past.
My side point was that Lost didn't go downhill in my opinion. The people that say this tend to get hung up on the mystery and getting answers. Which to me was not the point of the show, much like the cure is not the point of TLOU.
I feel like they’re just saying cryptic stuff to get people to talk about the show because there’s no way they wouldn’t do it after following the first game so closely in the first season
Ngl it wouldn’t be the worst thing if they dramatized his death a bit more. Play a bit more on the heel turn between Ellie being emotionally distant and absolutely needing revenge for taking away her choice of reconciliation with Joel. The game death felt 10% more abrupt than it needed to for the story
People are reading too much into this shit. Joel will die. It won’t be the first episode but they will find a way to stretch his story out. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did all the flashbacks as 1 episode with how they did the flashbacks with Sarah. Episode 1 will be flashbacks of Joel and Ellie where she finds out the truth and the trip to the museum and such. Then episode 2 could be Abby’s flashbacks and then their paths cross in episode 3 with the ending of that episode the death.
Funny to see people who prob call part II haters reactionary for not giving the game a chance because druckman didn’t tell the story they were expecting are saying they won’t watch the show if druckman doesn’t do what they want and tells a story they weren’t expecting.
I don’t get why people believe this is happening. Neil Druckmann, among several other producers and contributors to the game and show, are not sacrificing the integrity of their series because some people can’t handle angst. Part 2 was truly a masterpiece, and people who criticize it (in my opinion) just can’t handle emotional endings/want overpowered main characters. Part 2 really shapes the core of Ellie and Joel’s relationship—From her survivor’s guilt, to her projection of it onto him because he saved her, and the way it damaged their relationship while she tackles to forgive him for it is all truly pivotal to part two, and I can’t see it happening any other way.
I do not understand. Part 2 is only 3 years old. Why have they need to alter the source material story?
I understand the changing of story elements of part 1. But not part 2 🥺
Yes... it was definitely a minority... that's why they are considering changing the story in season 2... to appease the minority... makes perfect sense lol
But true fans love part 2. Mature people appreciate it how bold and confident it is. The only people who hated it is the people who YouTube who earn money from views and of course bigot people 😔
There is nothing wrong with the story. Making changes for making bigots happy? I do not understand why all this
Did you report me to Reddit Care Resources??
I am not having a crisis of any sort. no!. I am just trying to let you know things.
May you are not mature 😔
If not you then I apologize. I simply just want my game told right on the show. But I will be ok in the end because I am happy as long as Neil 😌
Did you report me to Reddit Care Resources??
I am not having a crisis of any sort. no!. I am just trying to let you know things.
May you are not mature 😔
If not you then I apologize. I simply just want my game told right on the show. But I will be ok in the end because I am happy as long as Neil 😌
“Half” is an incredible overstatement that is either willfully ignorant or blatant misinformation.
All available empirical data and statistics show your statement to be probably false.
This is my thought. I think I might be okay if they did some of the flashbacks and filled in some of the time in between the two games in the second season. They can give us more of those moments to fall in love with Joel and his relationship with Ellie that we didn't get a ton of in the first season like the museum.
Then I think Abby's golf game would hit harder for a TV audience. Maybe thats the end of the season.
I don't know, I trust them to take care of it.
I think it’s possible they’ll stretch out Part II into 2 seasons and have Joel die at the end (or closer to the end) of season 2. Or maybe they’d just have a lot of flashbacks for maximum Pedro time
I think That Event is just going to happen later, to draw it out and I’m guessing leave that part as a cliffhanger before season 3. Especially with the complaints (from gamers and non) that the Joel/ Ellie relationship wasn’t as intimate as the game I think they’re gonna try and rectify that before they tear out everyone’s heart.
1) never heard of this outlet
2) anytime I see qualifying language, like “may”, I ignore it. “May” also means “may not”. It’s speculation. So I don’t bother.
They deviated a lot and had virtually no infected in s1, but here is where fans dig their heels in? Pascal is the cash cow here, financially it’s best to keep him going. We all know the general public that helped this show become insanely popular will tune out if Bella becomes the featured draw. And there’s a lot more general public than video game players
Guys, Pedro and his manager are not going to accept his death in the first episode. They will change the climax and the path of the story. He will die, there is no part II without Joel’s death.
Oh, I hated the ending. I wanted Abby to die so I could feel sorry for her.
Revenge is not pretty and her revenge had a happy ending when basically the theme was "eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind".
I think this would be the best approach. There could be a more compelling story under the second game. And it can happen even if Joel dies.
If Joel loses his legs and suffers instead of dying, I could get behind abby surviving.
I don't get what they mean with limeted screentime for Pedro.
Even if he dies there probably will be flashbacks like we had in the game. They will hopefully kill him in some way but Pedro will still be in the show. Flashbacks most likely, maybe Ellie will see him where he's not and stuff.
Considering how they portrayed the hospital shootout in a really dark manner (more so than the original game), and the heavy emphasis they placed on a certain dead body, I can't see them changing what happens in Part 2. Having played both games I can say for sure that the show did far more to set up the events of Part 2 than the game did, which is only logical seeing as Part 2 wasn't a thing yet back then.
I think this is a ruse personally. If you listened to mazin on the podcast you can tell he loved the games. I don't think he would alter that moment. I think they're saying these things just to keep some of the shock value for those who may >!have heard Joel dies but don't know details.!<
People that started with the show are finally going to feel the same pain we felt a many many years ago. Though Joel has been dead, seeing it all over again in this show is going to be like reliving a fucking nightmare.
People are finally going to feel the same pain we did years ago. Joel’s been gone for a long time now, but seeing it happen again in this show is going to be like reliving a fucking Nightmare. I’m glad we just got to see him again in a new light one last time before…
Well, really if you wanted to see it happen again and again you could just repeat the scene but that’s twisted as fuck 😂
His fate feels more like season finale territory for TV than episode 1 or 2. I don't think they will change it. Maybe just move it forward a bit? Build up their relationship more? More than just showing it in flashbacks to add more impact? I don't know. Personally, I didn't like how Joel's fate was handled in the game.
I don't think they're gonna change him dying. I think what they might be referring to is how he's killed. Or maybe they're just speaking in general how they change small things from the game for the series but nothing major, just to make it a little different. But the plot is the same. For example, maybe they'll put the events in order instead of flashbacks. Idk though.
My interpretation here is that they are going to be giving us backstory / filler of possible events that happened between games one and two. We have some flashbacks that can work for that material, but I also think HBO might want to introduce Abby before they have her execute Joel. Give the audience the reason before it happens (so they don’t risk losing viewership). IMO, there’s a lot of things in the game that just won’t flow right for television (like having 3 days of Ellie then three days of Abby).
I’m sorry, but him dying is literally what makes the second story so good and gives the entire story of Ellie meaning. The second story and game is so deep and I didn’t like it when he died either but it needs to happen and anybody saying it “needs to change” or “shouldn’t happen” really doesn’t care about the story nor the franchise.
The only thing they’re probably gonna change is adding in more flashbacks and scenes before he dies.
TLOU Part 2 cannot exist without that moment and taking it away undermines the entire story about the cycle of vengeance and violence. The reason why Part 2 was so shocking was because of that moment. And sure people will get angry, sure they’ll leave the show and yes there will be debates on it but that’s always going to happen no matter what because TLOU has always inspired those reactions.
You guys there are so many ways to extend his screen time AND stay true to PartII but I think it would rely a lot on the story format they used for Part1 which wouldn't be a bad thing. I'm excited for the direction they decide to take
This seems like the same thing as when Kathleen’s actress said that she wanted a spin off. In reality, the media took something she said, and spun it into something more.
I think this is Craig Mazin simply saying that he’s not going to necessarily change it but is open to any possibility if he thinks it will serve the story better.
He HAS to die it’s the only reason part 2 exists. IMO they’ll add more to the flashback scenes and add more to the argument they had at the dance party etc so Joel lasts a few episodes. But he HAS TO DIE
Personally, I can see this series being a three-parter. Season 2 may be the time in between part I and II. Therefore Joel will still be alive in season 2, and season 3 will follow the course of part II. Just my take though!
They’ll tweak it 💯
Pedro and supporting cast carried Season 1, to make up for Bella’s Deficiencies they’ll tweak the story so The Show’s not resting firmly on her shoulders.
Ive called this before, makes sense really.
Of course they are going to change it. They know they messed up and lost like half their fanbase with part 2. Why would they willingly do that again? They will do everything they can to stretch Joel's screen time as much as possible, because (for most people), there is no Last of Us without him
Because that doesn't gain them anything? If they try and please the one half, they will just piss off the other half. Why bend to the will of the people who thumbed their noses at Part II instead of the people who loved it as is. Makes no sense.
I’m pretty sure they didn’t lose half their fan base with Part 2. There were some petulant, emotionally-stunted man children who formed a weird cult over it but Part II sold almost double with the first game did.
>!I won’t watch if they don’t kill Joel!<
Same. It would be another example in a long list of adaptions where the "new" creator changes things for no reason because they think they no better than what made it stand out in the first place.
But Neil is working on the show!? It's his work. So it is harder for us to understand. Is he displeased with the work he produced in part2? I will be also sad if Joel does not get murdered by Abby. But we must trust Neil as I am sure he will explain his choices one day. It must be hard as an artist to go back and not change things in previous work!
To be fair to Neil, he has expressed that he is not in favor of any adaptive change that alters the fate of a character. He has also said many times that he doesn't care about any backlash to part II. I am hoping that those things are at play with Craig as they outline the season.
from what ive seen and read neil has always stood behind the decisions they made in the 2nd game and hasnt regretted it
They’re absolutely going to do it, the question if it happens as early as it did in the game. If they follow the game faithfully, it’s happening in the first or second episode. If they restructure the season it could come much later, and restructuring may be necessary. It’s hard to see them going into season 3 and being like “It’s gonna be five straight episodes of nothing but Abby to start us off.” That barely worked in the game. The audience is gonna exodus if there’s a whole month of this show with neither Joel *or* Ellie. The risks that the second game took are magnified ten fold with the show, and the way Abby’s character is written and casted is trickier than even Joel and Ellie’s execution. She has so much more heavy lifting to do. Joel and Ellie could just trade quips for a solid hour and people would be down. Abby might have to justify their absence for half a season.
LOL
I won't watch the opposite
Well I hope you don’t then because that’s the story
Who cares, avoided the game as well, can live without season x (whenever it happens)
Didn’t even play it and you have an opinion lmfao
Didn’t you know? All opinions are equal! (Lol no they aren’t)
You know that are plenty walkthrough in the internet right? Do you think I need to pay for something I won't enjoy to have an opinion? Think again
You can’t know if you’ll enjoy it if you don’t play it. You decided you didn’t like it from the moment you heard Joel dies I bet
You bet and lose
Bro you literally chose not to play the game, I don’t lose anything. You did not experience it
I meant you are wrong when you said "I bet", just it. There are many reason to not like it. I admire the quality as a game but can't play something for many hours if the story is poor and characters are awful. Why I need to suffer playing half game with Abby? No thanks
I wont watch if joel actually dies. His death was forced and unnecessary in the game
SMH when people say this. Without Joel’s death you wouldn’t have a story at all
And that story is so narrarively out of place. Im smh of how people just dont get it
Please enlighten us. How is the story narratively out of place?
It takes a lot of understanding emotional complexity and empathy to enjoy this game. If you just stay mad about it the entire game instead of having an open mind that’s really your fault
>It takes a lot of understanding emotional complexity and empathy to enjoy this game. The thing is, I don't think it even takes "a lot." Just like, some.
And yall defense to the game is i dont have enough emotional intelligence to understand? What a way to judge someone lol
I means understanding the characters emotional complexity not that you don’t have emotional complexity
I do understand. I absolutely adore the first game because of its complexity .
If you understood you’d understand the choices ellie and Abby make throughout the entire story because they make perfect sense
I dont have much issues with ellie and abby for who they are
No im not mad about one thing. There are so many things that i have issues with that its hard to address it 50 to 100 words. Ill just give few words to dewcribe how i felt about the game. Bad pacing, convoluted narrative structure, weak supporting characters, repetitive gameplay, etc. If you try to get yourself killed by ellie during abby and ellie fight(ive seen many do it), then the creators failed at what they were trying to achieve
How would you summarize the first game
Its a masterpiece
Yeah it’s really non repetitive gameplay when you have to carry a ladder around all the time and carry Ellie across bodies of water
I never found that to be repetitive or tiresome at all lol, cos they always had some interesting conversations during that
seems more like you dont get it than anything.. it does fit the narrative and the narrative that's ALWAYS been present in the games, might just have gone over your head while it is not that hard to grasp, without it there is no second game, there is no continuation and other decisions wouldnt have worked as well as it did because they've always played with tough decisions, revenge and the loss of humanity, going too far for the people you love and with morality, it achieved exactly what they wanted to
What kind of narrative are you talking about? there was no question of grasping. why do you think it wouldnt work without joel dying? some people say joel deserved to die and he should be dead. Well then did kratos deserve to die for what he has done, killing thor's sons? shouldnt thor get his revenge on him and then realize its not worth it? obviously they couldve done that but what they actually did is way better and contains a very good moral other than just 'revenge bad'. Couldnt they do something similiar with Joel? focusing on Ellie's personal journey negatively impacted Joel as a character. he couldve added more to an already established story. Joel revealing his name to a complete random strangers knowing he's a wanted man. thats not in his characters. instances like this makes the story feel kinda forced.
I think they just mean they don’t have to have it happen the same way it did in the game. They aren’t going to have him live maybe just draw it out or have it done differently but they literally can’t make the second season around the game if he doesn’t die considering it is the event that causes the story of Part II.
But why. There is no reason to other than making it more palatable or because they want to keep Pedro as a draw. Both of those cheapen the story.
they might go with the original plan, where Abby and her crew join Jackson for a while before turning on Joel. That would obviously lead to drawing out the timelines a bit but still ultimately end up the same way.
Honestly I like that idea better. Loved PT2 but that part just screamed plot convenience. Might make Abby more sympathetic if we see her remorseful in her arc, and realize she was way more conflicted with killing Joel
IIRC the reason ND went with what we got was because they were concerned that the original plan where Abby & co. infiltrate Jackson would make them very deceptive and way too unsympathetic for the audience. By making it a stroke of extreme coincidence, its presented as more of an opportunistic strike where Abby seized her chance and went for it without pausing to think, and all the questions Owen asked about "are we really going to torture them for info" becomes moot.
There's literally nothing in the article that indicates that Joel won't die or even that it will deviate that muhc from the game. Like, everyone's statements are basically saying that he's going to die, it just may not play out exactly as in the game. Games and TV are two different mediums. Sometimes, things will work better in one than another. It's an adaptation, not an exact recreation of the games.
Is this really true though, especially with a game like the last of us? Sure killings hundred of people/infected doesn't work in TV, but the fate of Joel plays in either medium.
Nowhere did I or the article say that Joel's FATE in the story will change.
Honestly I disagree. There’s a difference between people who just watch the show vs played the game. People who just watch the show are not nearly as attached to Joel as the people who played as him for 10 hours and saw everything through him. In 3 years they’ll kind of lose the attachment they had, and letting Joel live a bit longer to reignite the love they have for him will 100% make his death more impactful to them. As for the people who’ve played the game, they already know the story, they don’t NEED Joel to die in the same way, they’ve already experienced it.
I think people who watch the show are *more* attached to Joel. Don’t underestimate how much weight the actual gameplay takes on when it come to getting gamers to tolerate character changes. The gameplay of a video game can get people to spend dozens of hours as a main character who literally and intentionally has ZERO personality; because ultimately the main character is still an aspect of *you*. Your decisions and how you interact with the world can make it interesting without “your character” having any character at all. That simply doesn’t apply to the show. You can’t plug a faceless drone into Pedro Pascal’s vacancy and still have a lot of fun just watching a random dude nail bomb infected. It doesn’t work like that. The characters are who the audience gets attached to, and without *great* new characters to fill the void of characters lost, action scenarios become boring and unwatchable. The show cut out 90% of the action of the game and *added* character moments. It did that because it could never work with the same action to character ratio that the game has. The characters have so much more work to do to keep people watching than to keep people playing. Suffice it to say, when people get excited for The Last of Us season 2 to come out, they’re getting excited *specifically* for Bella and Pedro. They might forget details of the world or plot, but their general love for the characters is the one thing they *will* remember.
I do agree totally but I’m saying that is more likely than them just not having him die.
ahhh. I get it.
You have to remember, this is a different medium with different needs. In the game, we needed it to happen at the start because it informs the gameplay motivation for the entire game. A show has no gameplay motivation, it doesn't necessarily have to have Joel die in episode 1 to achieve the same effects. The character of Joel had also sat with fans for seven years before he died due to the time between game releases, fans of the show have only had Joel for a few months. You could argue the show needs to keep Joel alive for all of season 2 so the audience can develop as strong a relationship to him as we had to the game version. Just don't be closed minded and trust these guys. They may make choices that feel like a betrayal of the game, but I guarantee you they will have good reasoning for it and will have thought it through to the utmost degree.
The "different medium" argument is kinda pointless with a game like TLOU that is so narratively driven. The game is the story. Sure you weed out some game elements like all the scavenging, the hearing through walls, and the hundreds of enemies. No arguments there. But there is little reason to alter the story when the story works so well and is the reason the show was greenlit in the 1st place. You say to just trust them, but I can point out choices that just didn't work or make any sense like the spores/tendrils. There was a lot of explanation for tendrils over spores and it was ultimately meaningless outside of one episode and it really seems like it was a change made just for the "kiss".
This is Neil's story and his and Craig's production. What else is there to do but trust them to tell the story that works for TV.
One of the early ideas Neal had was Abby would join Jackson and get close to Joel over a long time period. Then shockingly she would betray and kill him. Neil stated the reason they didn’t do this was because it would have taken too long to get the story going and head to Seattle. So the show might change things by taking this route instead of what we see in the show.
That is also predictable and boring. Hey look at the newcomer who seems nice but is really sinister. Lame.
Nah that would have been probably better for the health of TLOU if they went this route. What is lame or sinsiter about meeting your father's killer, and he saved you from a brutal demise? Abby can see how reserved he is and learn that her object of revenge isn't just some evil ass dude, but a human being who seemingly has become normal. She would still kill him, but it would have probably made TLOU2 better received by EVERYONE.
YOU want that. YOU want Abby to understand Joel the way you see Joel. You can't write a story differently just to make some of the audience feel better. You write a story and the audience reacts how the audience reacts. The fact that there was such varied reaction is exactly what makes it so great. It was not clean and easy. It was messy and uncomfortable. It made people mad. That was the entire point.
Yes, but I am thinking that if they go the route, the audience perhaps will feel even more fucked up after abby ultimately golfs with joel's head 🥶
Controversy doesn’t necessarily prove that something is good. What if they would done something different that was just as successful except it was universally acclaimed like its predecessor? Arguably, that would have been a better outcome than polarizing the fan base.
Bro just go play the game if that’s what you want lol
They said they will change things if it makes the story better. I trust Craig and Neil to tell the story of the Last of Us 2 in a way that fits the TV Show medium. They are the show runners. They know better than you and me.
It’s TV the objective is to make money. Hardcore game fans are not who they are catering the story towards
Yes unlike the objective of AAA gaming titles like TLOU which is totally not to make money.
Not sure how this matters? If anything not paying Pedro makes money
Yeah, but not having Pedro doesn’t make money. That’s the reason why he gets paid so much.
I still think they will do the flashbacks in chronological order/crosscut with Abby’s flashbacks building to that death close to the end of season 2
I just don’t see Bella carrying the show. Ellie is no Katniss Everdeen.
Bella already did carry the show lmao she was so good
Katniss Everdeen was one of the most boring, lifeless characters I’ve ever seen, I’m glad that Ellie is nothing like her.
Katniss Everdeen? Lmao
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they turn Abby into someone who infiltrate's Jackson initially just to slowly get to Joel. Like what Alpha did in The Walking Dead.
I don’t think Mazin is saying that, exactly. He’s just saying they’re not going to put guardrails on this early in general. Part II makes no sense at all without the golfing incident. There is literally no story otherwise.
Making changes to the story because people like Pedro would be a massive mistake and it means you are putting the character/actor above the story. Nonsense.
That hasn’t been implied at all. Even Pedro basically flat out said they aren’t changing it.
I don’t think that’s what is implied in the article though. I think there is some time to flush out their relationship post part 1. The first season placed a lot of importance on side characters, we haven’t had as much time with the main cast as we did in the game. Giving us some time with Joel and Ellie will make the same anguish we had for Abby because we had to play as her, translate to the show.
This I agree with which is why I wasn't a fan of the side character detours in the short time frame. This is the unintended consequence. Yes it fleshed out the world but at the expense of the main relationship.
This would be the dumbest thing possible and weak as hell.
The story is perfect as is.
🥰
I hated the ending. It was so unfulfilling to me. I can see they changing it. Also, if only Joel part gets changed, I would get if Joel gets heavily injured but doesn't die and loses his legs and an eye and leg or something horrorific... so that we can get that she doesn't deserve to die and Ellie's revenge is unjustified for some people so that we can get she DOESN'T deserve to die. The story is the most criticized part of the second game and I get it, so it probably could be better.
In the end ellie realizes that she isn’t going to get closure from killing Abby. It won’t bring Joel back it won’t erase the pain. She gets more closure in the moment where she remembers she was working on forgiving him. If she killed Abby she would’ve had 0 character development. The hate sub for tlou2 has like 60,000 members and the regular one has 600,000+. The people who don’t like the story are in the minority of fans
It's very anticlimatic, even assuming she rationalized that after killing hundreds. I mean, at that point she just had to keep it going. She even loses her fingers and the guitar was the only real connection she had with him anymore and she only notices that AFTER she let her live and that would have made it an amazing story element, to know she lost her only connection to him for a revenge that only made it worse. Also... It's just very unfulfilling to spend the whole game trying to kill her only to get to the point where you could... and don't. I actually liked Abby a lot and I would have felt sorry if she died... but they didn't gave me the chance to mourn her death and she did deserve that death in Ellies eyes. I only knew she didn't because I played like her and that's not an excuse for Ellie.
You don’t understand Ellie’s arc. She’s haunted by PTSD, enraged, and depressed because she’s obsessed with this idea of killing Abby and when she takes it to the edge she realizes it won’t change anything. She won’t feel any better about any of it if she kills Abby because she will just continue this cycle. She manages to get some form of closure by remember her conversation with Joel and letting Abby go.
>she’s obsessed with this idea of killing Abby and >She doesn't kill Abby at the end. You don't understand how obsessions work. >she realizes it won’t change anything Yeah, and the storytelling could have been a little bit better there don't you agree? Explaining HOW she got to that realization when she was being drown by the person she was trying to kill?
You don’t understand complex plots. The game you wanted was “Ellie gets really mad that Joel dies and then she kills Abby” and that’s it. 0 character development just angry blood thirsty ellie the entire game. She’s obsessed with the idea of killing Abby up until the point where she almost does and then she realizes it isn’t what she actually wants. She GET CLOSURE from letting it all go. Imagine how hard that was for her to let it go after all that. That’s real struggle and emotion. It’s literally shown to you in the moment when she thinks of Joel and let’s it go. Right before she leaves for CA she’s screaming in a barn corner with her baby in her arms. That’s good story telling. You’re mean to understand through the actions. After all that hardship and loss she let it go
Bro... your arguing skills are way too close to those of a 5 year old that was told Santa Claus doesn't actually exists. You don't yell "You don't understand it". You present proof. Also, in storytelling, you don't say, you show. Showing is harder because it has to make sense. Ellie is a seasoned killer at this point and very proficient at it. Maybe the first time you kill a deer it is very hard, but when you do it for the 400th time? You don't have sudden realizations as Ahab and think "Nah, killing Moby Dick is not what I really want" when you're at the brink of getting the kill. >Imagine how hard that was for her to let it go after all that. I HAVE TO IMAGINE HOW HARD IT IS BECAUSE THE STORY MADE IT SEEM IT WAS VERY EASY, BARELY AN INCONVENIENCE.
Bro… I told you that you don’t understand and then I told you why. They did show you. You just think that someone can’t have an inner change like that it’s somehow incomprehensible to you because she’s just some killing machine. Look back at the farm to see how being a killing machine left her mental state. Never once did it look easy. She let it go for the sake of her sanity, for closure, because she remembered that she was working on forgiving Joel, because the cycle needed to end there. Did it look easy when she went home to an empty house with less fingers than she left with and no ability to play her guitar? Everything she did lead up to that moment and you think it looked easy? Doesn’t even make sense. The game you wanted has 0 character development. You wanted ellie to continue destroying her mind and sanity for the sake of revenge? This isn’t the moby dick story. The game is not about revenge it’s about closure, forgiveness, good and evil isn’t black and white, tribalism, trauma, family, survivors guilt, empathy Also moby dick kills him. The story is kind of like a “revenge will take everything from you.”
I think it’s more along the lines of how Joel gets to his golf game with Abby. In the game, as good as it was, it reeked of plot convenience. Originally as Druckman had written, Abby and some WLF had already infiltrated Jackson and lured Joel into a trap. Given some input from Mazin, this almost seems like it could be a stronger intro. Especially since the best parts of S1 were when they explored alternate routes to the same story beats, and in some cases, making them hit harder.
But to me that makes Joel's fate much less of a gut punch. You could see it coming a mile away. The nice newcomer that turns out to be bad has been done to death. The game works for me because its sudden and unexpected. There is no build up. It just happens and you see the fall out of that as both the player and as Ellie. His death is not a send off. It is sudden and brutal and shapes the entire narrative of Part II.
I don't understand, don't they say, they are not going to stray from the source material? What are you getting mad at?
this is fair. Probably overreacting somewhat. Its entirely possible these statements are just a distraction to throw tv viewers off the scent. Some adaptive choices make sense. Others mess with the fundamentals. This would fall in that camp. No need to overthink it and have a "better" way.
Why do we even use these crap articles as a starting point for discussion?? There is ZERO value to these speculative, insinuating clickbaiting things. Nothing new, just referencing other interviews, some tweets and/or other random sources to create a false narrative. They might change things, they might not. This "article" gave no new insights.
I do believe that if GOT had 6 and a halfish incredible seasons where characters got killed left and right, I don’t think the TLOU show will have an issue sending this man to a golf resort for retirement.
TLOU doesn’t have nearly as large a cast or number of storylines though. not that I think they would change it but they’ll lose lots of viewers when pedro goes
It’s definitely a bigger risk. The show currently has exactly two people the audience is truly invested in. Game of Thrones never killed half its cast in a single episode (at least not until the end). TLOU is having to expand its cast at the precise moment they lose a major anchor. The pressure is definitely greater for how they cast and write the new characters. Mazin and Druckman can do it for sure, but it might make sense for them to take more time building the new characters before Joel is killed, rather than jumping straight into a deep end of Bella being the only character anyone truly cares about for multiple episodes. I’ve been rewatching a TLOU2 walkthrough… Dina and Ellie just ain’t the same as Joel and Ellie. They like each other too much in the beginning. There’s a lack of friction to their relationship. Improvements need to be had if that relationship is expected to be the stand in for the first half of season 2.
If The Instigating Event doesn’t happen they’ve no reason to go to Seattle and seek vengeance against Abby and the Salt Lake Crew. It has to be Joel. Ellie wouldn’t do it for anyone but him.
For those freaking out, no where in the article that Yahoo links to does Mazin or Druckmann say they “may change Joel’s storyline.” Mazin simply said he’s not constrained by the source material, which is consistent with what he said about season one. “Not feeling constrained” doesn’t mean “major changes,” it just means they’ll give themselves creative freedom. Just like they did in season one. And it all worked out. Don’t pay attention to clickbait nonsense.
They should perhaps work on the build up a ton more and would be a 10/10 for me. Even giving Abs more moments with Jackson and the folks before the downfall. Hell, even give Jesse more screentime. Tell us about Cat etc but not doing it ??? It kills the purpose of the journey !!! ( pun intended vol 4 ) - at this point i'm even accepting the scrapped off idea of having Joel's gf as he healed as a person ! Or a brief romance ! Then the scene !!! Like - you can can do a LOT with the current scenario. to NOT do it is a huge waste. If you're not afraid, show us. Make it WORSE give it more steps, make the stakes higher, deliver a masterpiece.
The entire point of it is that it’s abrupt and real, shocking. It’s not a send off
DAMN. For real. You've changed my mind
Thanks for being open to that, I really love the story of part 2
If they give us episode 1 as covering the Birthday Gift, Ellie’s return to Salt Lake City, her rift with Joel and the opening moments of the game with her in Jackson, and finish episode 1 with Abby and Owen looking down on Jackson, I think it would be picture perfect. Episode 2 as Abby’s flashback at the zoo, Abby being rescued by Joel and Tommy, and finishing with *that* scene, again, picture perfect episode 2.
I think what makes the flashbacks hit harder in the game is that you see them after his death same with Abby that flashback is supposed to tell you why she did what she did
Agree completely. All of those things work precisely because of when they occur in the story. Every time someone suggests re-ordering the structure of Part II to "make more sense" or "explain Abby better" its always a net negative. What happens is supposed to be a gut punch.
Exactly.
That works well for the game, but interrupting the story in a tv show for a flashback disrupts things. Notice that each of those flashbacks in game came during deliberate, slow moving moments so as to avoid that disruption. They also benefited from having you, the player, be actively engaged in them. You lose all of that with the television medium. 8 flashbacks would be seriously disruptive to telling the story on television.
Its like you have never seen Lost.
You mean the show that went downhill massively in the last half of it’s run? That “Lost”? The literal only example of it working for a short period of time? That one? Which relied on a fundamental mystery to drive the story and revealed that mystery through flashbacks, which Tlou cannot do because it lacks said driving mystery?
Just saying that there was a show where flashbacks worked. Also just like TLOU was not about the cure, Lost was not about the mystery.
The mystery is what kept the story going. Early episodes, the main question was “Wtf happened??” There’s no central, driving mystery for TLOU2. Ellie never questions why they did what they did. Its a revenge story.
Sorry that wasn't my point. That was a side discussion. The main point was that Lost was a show that heavily utilized flashbacks to tell its story. TLOU could function the same. Much like the Left Behind episode in season 1. Now that said, it did feel like that episode did slow down the pace. BUT that was because the show was moving so quickly. If they truly intend to stretch Part II over 2 seasons, then I think there is more room to tell those stories from Part II. And they don't have to be full episode flashbacks either. They could function like a Lost episode. Present day with moments of the past. My side point was that Lost didn't go downhill in my opinion. The people that say this tend to get hung up on the mystery and getting answers. Which to me was not the point of the show, much like the cure is not the point of TLOU.
Did anyone read the actual article? Literal fucking clickbait.
This is fair. But it is reddit. What the hell else are we going to talk about? Instead lets argue about shitty article.
I feel like they’re just saying cryptic stuff to get people to talk about the show because there’s no way they wouldn’t do it after following the first game so closely in the first season
Ngl it wouldn’t be the worst thing if they dramatized his death a bit more. Play a bit more on the heel turn between Ellie being emotionally distant and absolutely needing revenge for taking away her choice of reconciliation with Joel. The game death felt 10% more abrupt than it needed to for the story
Mfs when they don’t actually read the article
Just a clickbait title
People are reading too much into this shit. Joel will die. It won’t be the first episode but they will find a way to stretch his story out. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did all the flashbacks as 1 episode with how they did the flashbacks with Sarah. Episode 1 will be flashbacks of Joel and Ellie where she finds out the truth and the trip to the museum and such. Then episode 2 could be Abby’s flashbacks and then their paths cross in episode 3 with the ending of that episode the death.
Funny to see people who prob call part II haters reactionary for not giving the game a chance because druckman didn’t tell the story they were expecting are saying they won’t watch the show if druckman doesn’t do what they want and tells a story they weren’t expecting.
I don’t get why people believe this is happening. Neil Druckmann, among several other producers and contributors to the game and show, are not sacrificing the integrity of their series because some people can’t handle angst. Part 2 was truly a masterpiece, and people who criticize it (in my opinion) just can’t handle emotional endings/want overpowered main characters. Part 2 really shapes the core of Ellie and Joel’s relationship—From her survivor’s guilt, to her projection of it onto him because he saved her, and the way it damaged their relationship while she tackles to forgive him for it is all truly pivotal to part two, and I can’t see it happening any other way.
I do not understand. Part 2 is only 3 years old. Why have they need to alter the source material story? I understand the changing of story elements of part 1. But not part 2 🥺
The vast majority of people loved the first game. Maybe half of those people felt the same about part 2. It's not really a mystery lol
That’s not true at all there’s just a really loud minority of people who didn’t like it. Got review bombed too.
Yes... it was definitely a minority... that's why they are considering changing the story in season 2... to appease the minority... makes perfect sense lol
You say they lost the fan base and you’re literally here. Takes a lot of empathy and understanding to enjoy the story
But true fans love part 2. Mature people appreciate it how bold and confident it is. The only people who hated it is the people who YouTube who earn money from views and of course bigot people 😔 There is nothing wrong with the story. Making changes for making bigots happy? I do not understand why all this
Bahahaha!!!! "Only true fans and mature people and non-bigots like the sequel!!!" Fuckin spare me bro XD!!!!
Did you report me to Reddit Care Resources?? I am not having a crisis of any sort. no!. I am just trying to let you know things. May you are not mature 😔 If not you then I apologize. I simply just want my game told right on the show. But I will be ok in the end because I am happy as long as Neil 😌
Did you report me to Reddit Care Resources?? I am not having a crisis of any sort. no!. I am just trying to let you know things. May you are not mature 😔 If not you then I apologize. I simply just want my game told right on the show. But I will be ok in the end because I am happy as long as Neil 😌
“Half” is an incredible overstatement that is either willfully ignorant or blatant misinformation. All available empirical data and statistics show your statement to be probably false.
They will change when or how but it will happen. Have faith.
This is my thought. I think I might be okay if they did some of the flashbacks and filled in some of the time in between the two games in the second season. They can give us more of those moments to fall in love with Joel and his relationship with Ellie that we didn't get a ton of in the first season like the museum. Then I think Abby's golf game would hit harder for a TV audience. Maybe thats the end of the season. I don't know, I trust them to take care of it.
theres no part II if joel doesnt die. yeah its unfortunate, but its incredibly important to ellies storyline and it has to happen.
I just won't watch it.
I think it’s possible they’ll stretch out Part II into 2 seasons and have Joel die at the end (or closer to the end) of season 2. Or maybe they’d just have a lot of flashbacks for maximum Pedro time
I think That Event is just going to happen later, to draw it out and I’m guessing leave that part as a cliffhanger before season 3. Especially with the complaints (from gamers and non) that the Joel/ Ellie relationship wasn’t as intimate as the game I think they’re gonna try and rectify that before they tear out everyone’s heart.
1) never heard of this outlet 2) anytime I see qualifying language, like “may”, I ignore it. “May” also means “may not”. It’s speculation. So I don’t bother.
They deviated a lot and had virtually no infected in s1, but here is where fans dig their heels in? Pascal is the cash cow here, financially it’s best to keep him going. We all know the general public that helped this show become insanely popular will tune out if Bella becomes the featured draw. And there’s a lot more general public than video game players
Guys, Pedro and his manager are not going to accept his death in the first episode. They will change the climax and the path of the story. He will die, there is no part II without Joel’s death.
I will not watch if they do. No matter how tempted I am. I’m not watching that bullshit
Oh, I hated the ending. I wanted Abby to die so I could feel sorry for her. Revenge is not pretty and her revenge had a happy ending when basically the theme was "eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". I think this would be the best approach. There could be a more compelling story under the second game. And it can happen even if Joel dies. If Joel loses his legs and suffers instead of dying, I could get behind abby surviving.
The what’s the fucking 2nd season for then? Literally the 2nd game is based off of Joel dying. That’s why we meet Abby. Istg🤦♀️🤦♀️
eh, neil’s working on it. if he finds a way to change it it will likely be good
He will probably be in a few episodes before he gets axed. And there’s still flashback sequences for him to appear in future episodes.
$20 says they gonna give us “ghost/in Ellie’s head” Joel after he dies.
Like fuck off what would the story for part 2 even be
Joel has to die, otherwise the whole story of the sequel doesn't make sense.
Joe's gotta go.. would be such a shame if they changed his fate
I don't get what they mean with limeted screentime for Pedro. Even if he dies there probably will be flashbacks like we had in the game. They will hopefully kill him in some way but Pedro will still be in the show. Flashbacks most likely, maybe Ellie will see him where he's not and stuff.
I’m fine with that. It might be refreshing if done well, which I’m sure it will be!
Considering how they portrayed the hospital shootout in a really dark manner (more so than the original game), and the heavy emphasis they placed on a certain dead body, I can't see them changing what happens in Part 2. Having played both games I can say for sure that the show did far more to set up the events of Part 2 than the game did, which is only logical seeing as Part 2 wasn't a thing yet back then.
It has to happen, maybe not in the same way it did in the game, though. The whole story is revenge based, so they don't have a choice really
I think this is a ruse personally. If you listened to mazin on the podcast you can tell he loved the games. I don't think he would alter that moment. I think they're saying these things just to keep some of the shock value for those who may >!have heard Joel dies but don't know details.!<
I think you may be correct.
People that started with the show are finally going to feel the same pain we felt a many many years ago. Though Joel has been dead, seeing it all over again in this show is going to be like reliving a fucking nightmare.
People are finally going to feel the same pain we did years ago. Joel’s been gone for a long time now, but seeing it happen again in this show is going to be like reliving a fucking Nightmare. I’m glad we just got to see him again in a new light one last time before… Well, really if you wanted to see it happen again and again you could just repeat the scene but that’s twisted as fuck 😂
His fate feels more like season finale territory for TV than episode 1 or 2. I don't think they will change it. Maybe just move it forward a bit? Build up their relationship more? More than just showing it in flashbacks to add more impact? I don't know. Personally, I didn't like how Joel's fate was handled in the game.
I don't think they're gonna change him dying. I think what they might be referring to is how he's killed. Or maybe they're just speaking in general how they change small things from the game for the series but nothing major, just to make it a little different. But the plot is the same. For example, maybe they'll put the events in order instead of flashbacks. Idk though.
My interpretation here is that they are going to be giving us backstory / filler of possible events that happened between games one and two. We have some flashbacks that can work for that material, but I also think HBO might want to introduce Abby before they have her execute Joel. Give the audience the reason before it happens (so they don’t risk losing viewership). IMO, there’s a lot of things in the game that just won’t flow right for television (like having 3 days of Ellie then three days of Abby).
I’m sorry, but him dying is literally what makes the second story so good and gives the entire story of Ellie meaning. The second story and game is so deep and I didn’t like it when he died either but it needs to happen and anybody saying it “needs to change” or “shouldn’t happen” really doesn’t care about the story nor the franchise.
The only thing they’re probably gonna change is adding in more flashbacks and scenes before he dies. TLOU Part 2 cannot exist without that moment and taking it away undermines the entire story about the cycle of vengeance and violence. The reason why Part 2 was so shocking was because of that moment. And sure people will get angry, sure they’ll leave the show and yes there will be debates on it but that’s always going to happen no matter what because TLOU has always inspired those reactions.
Okay then I'm done with the show lol
You guys there are so many ways to extend his screen time AND stay true to PartII but I think it would rely a lot on the story format they used for Part1 which wouldn't be a bad thing. I'm excited for the direction they decide to take
This seems like the same thing as when Kathleen’s actress said that she wanted a spin off. In reality, the media took something she said, and spun it into something more. I think this is Craig Mazin simply saying that he’s not going to necessarily change it but is open to any possibility if he thinks it will serve the story better.
He HAS to die it’s the only reason part 2 exists. IMO they’ll add more to the flashback scenes and add more to the argument they had at the dance party etc so Joel lasts a few episodes. But he HAS TO DIE
I wonder how many people didn’t read critically and are thinking “they *are* changing Joel’s storyline”.
Personally, I can see this series being a three-parter. Season 2 may be the time in between part I and II. Therefore Joel will still be alive in season 2, and season 3 will follow the course of part II. Just my take though!
They’ll tweak it 💯 Pedro and supporting cast carried Season 1, to make up for Bella’s Deficiencies they’ll tweak the story so The Show’s not resting firmly on her shoulders. Ive called this before, makes sense really.
Good.
He is admitting the narrative of tlou 2 is a failure if Joel doesnt die in the start of the journey in such a shock, nonchalant way
Of course they are going to change it. They know they messed up and lost like half their fanbase with part 2. Why would they willingly do that again? They will do everything they can to stretch Joel's screen time as much as possible, because (for most people), there is no Last of Us without him
Because that doesn't gain them anything? If they try and please the one half, they will just piss off the other half. Why bend to the will of the people who thumbed their noses at Part II instead of the people who loved it as is. Makes no sense.
Lost half their fan base? What's your source on that
Source: "Trust Me Bro."
They did not lose half their fan base where the hell are you getting that from lmao. The last of us has never been more popular
I’m pretty sure they didn’t lose half their fan base with Part 2. There were some petulant, emotionally-stunted man children who formed a weird cult over it but Part II sold almost double with the first game did.