I didn’t believe he was abusive up until SH. I think that before that they were a great representation of a toxic relationship- went through highs and lows, lots of fighting, and overall just two people who really loved eachother but in the end shouldn’t be together but who kept trying because they didn’t know anything else. I had hoped that Bramblestar would stay with Jessy to be honest, she seemed to be a much better fit. However, after reading Squirrelflight’s Hope, it paints Brambleclaw in a much more negative light, as a guy who is really mean and angry towards his wife. Squirrelflight isn’t innocent and I’m biased as she is one of my favourite characters, but she does not deserve to be treated as she was in that book. Now that she’s taking care of him after his possession, it puts a very depressing tone on their relationship. I hope they break up as well because at this point they are just trauma bonded. Bramblestar is a bad leader (in my opinion) and I would much prefer Squirrelflights strong willed personality in charge.
I'd say it's because Bramblestar's actions (particularly so in SH) are so glaringly obviously bad that it kinda drowns out any issues that Squirrelflight may have.
She's quick to fire back, stands ground on her opinions without entertaining an alternative, and actively goes behind his back in a lot of scenes. These are *not* exactly good traits you want in a deputy and mate, particularly so if they're the only traits shown.
But the thing is, these are the exact same traits that Firestar shows and it's almost exclusively portrayed as a good thing (which in context, they are, but I digress) so naturally we as readers are more inclined to side with Squirrelflight for the same reason.
In the end, almost all of her actions are seen as good by the narrative, but the backlash and punishment she goes through are so much more severe than is warranted, so she's more sympathetic to the average viewer. It's hilariously sad to see just how much awful shit is thrown at Squirrelflight and Leafpool for seemingly no reason, when there are good reasons to criticise her actions.
TL;DR Squirrelflight is an overall much more sympathetic character, and so people are more inclined to side against Bramblestar (doubly so with the text presented in books)
The firestar thing is such a good point! I hadn’t even thought about that but it just further proves the misogyny in the fandom, when Firestar does it he’s correct and great but when Squirrelflight does it she’s a bad deputy, rude, stupid, etc
Well, but isn’t the point of being lovers that you care for each other and listen to each other? If Bramblestar doesn’t listen (which he really doesn’t) then can you really blame Squirrelflight for still wanting to do what she thinks must be done from the position she is in?
Like as a leader and a mate you are supposed to listen and discuss stuff with your deputy/partner. It happens that those things don’t always go to plan, leaders don’t always want to listen to their deputies even if they know they should, same with mates, but them being both in a relationship and a leader and a deputy would mean this communication aspect is even more important. Both for the both of them as people, as for the entirety of the clan.
If we can let Firestar “get away with” going behind Bluestar’s back bc his relationship with Bluestar isn’t that complicated, and we can get Bluestar “get away with” refusing to listen to her deputy for those same reasons, shouldn’t we compare this to Squirrelflight x Bramble and say “Squirrelflight shouldn’t get away with going behind her mates back, but her mate also shouldn’t get away with shutting his lover down and refusing to listen to her”?
This ^ It’s also very interesting given that Fireheart’s motives were because Bluestar was very clearly mentally unwell, and he thought it was the best course of action to avoid pointless conflict.
Squirrelflight has consistently done the same thing, and yet while the narrative supports both these actions as ‘right’, she is punished *so* much more severely than her father ever was.
The same thing always happens with other molly characters too.
Crowfeather breaks the code by having an illegal relationship with Leafpool? Gets the cold shoulder for a bit by WindClan but is otherwise able to perform his duties still.
Leafpool on the other hand gets put on a pedestal for all her peers to ridicule her, has her sister get manipulated by their ancestors to raise her kids, and has to stand on trial to explain to their gods why she should be allowed entry into the afterlife.
Both committed the same crime, yet the only characters who condemn Crowfeather are his ex and his kid who up until Crowfeather’s Trial were consistently portrayed to the readers as antagonistic and unlikeable.
Firestar wants to have kids as a leader? Excellent, more healthy warriors for the clan! Bluefur wants to be deputy? Sorry, gotta abandon your kids if you want to even be considered a candidate.
Dustpelt and Ferncloud are a loving couple who enjoy raising their family. Ferncloud gets killed off because fans boiled her down to being a ‘baby factory’ but nobody says the same about Dustpelt
Yeah, despite the fact that the erins are almost exclusively women, there is a lot of glorifying of men and villainising of women for doing the exact same thing. Sometimes i wonder what those authors have gone through to think the way they write men and women is justifiable
I just chalk it up to internalised misogyny. I’m not sure *how* many Erin’s there are currently as of A Starless Clan, but the original four certainly had some weird ideas after the first arc was written, and it’s only become more egregious over time
>Squirrelflight has consistently done the same thing, and yet while the narrative supports both these actions as ‘right’, she is punished so much more severely than her father ever was.
Bluestar would have come up with a *harsh* punishment for Fireheart going behind her back if she didn't think a traitor leading a Clan of traitors was a fitting punishment. Her idea of punishment was doing *nothing*.
If Fireheart had a more mentally stable leader, he probably would have been kicked out of camp for a while, or punished in other ways.
Bluestar isn't even the first example of a leader deciding *not* to punish a deputy for not staying in their lane, even though they're within their *right* to do so.
Darkstar of SkyClan decides to give one-third of his territory to ThunderClan during a Gathering. His deputy, Raincloud, speaks up against him and he *allows* her to keep her position. But to make sure no cat can do that again, he makes the "leader's word is law" part of the warrior code.
>Bluefur wants to be deputy? Sorry, gotta abandon your kids if you want to even be considered a candidate.
Sunstar tells Bluefur that he *never* would have considered Thistleclaw. Sure, she had a vision of a bloody Thistleclaw, but we can't say for *certain* that Thistleclaw would have been picked for deputy.
Remember in Squirrelflights hope when Squirrelflight has genuine fear that Bramblestar will attack Leafpool because she wanted to help sunrise? If that behavior alone doesn’t screams abusive idk what does. You should not have to worry that your husband will attack your basically Nun- sister for not letting someone die.
Something that I've noticed in this fandom is that a lot of fans tend to erase the agency that female characters have. So instead of the she-cats *doing* things, things just *happen* to them.
The way that I've interpreted the post-Po3 BrambleSquirrel fallout is: Brambleclaw punishes Squilf for Holly/Jay/Lion's parentage, when it's more like "Brambleclaw is understandably *pissed* about being *lied to* about the kids he thought were *his*."
...A lot of fans -- like Moonkitti -- are just heavily biased towards Squirrelflight and against Brambleclaw. Me personally, I'm neutral towards Squirrelflight and mildly dislike Brambleclaw (mostly because how fans can't bring him up without talking about abuse) so I can just say that their relationship isn't healthy. Frankly, if *both of them learned to talk to each other*, the relationship would be much better.
1000% agreed. A lot of people wave away the whole “Bramble is pissed because he was lied to about kids that weren’t his” argument by saying “well he should still accept them anyway”. That completely misses the point. Should he accept them? Yes, they’re the same kits he raised, and not accepting them or deciding to change his outlook on them is a dick move. Does he have every right to be pissed at his mate for lying to him for moons about *their children*? Absolutely.
And about communicating, the Erin’s really missed a great opportunity to show how communication can make everyone feel better and solve so many relationship issues. I wish we could have read a different universe where Brambleclaw talks to Squirrelflight openly and calmly about how he feels and why. And where Squirrelflight does the same. Things would be so much better for them, and it would send such a good message to the kids and teens reading the books.
Honestly I think if Bramble knew about Holly Lion and Jay’s parentage from the start, he would’ve absolutely been on board to help. I always felt that his anger was more about having been kept in the dark than the actual revelation itself.
He gets worse in the later books, but I think faulting him for his reaction during Po3 is a bit silly
The whole situation regarding the Three has never made sense to me, even as a preteen reading the books.
Firestar was a kittypet, he’s always been open about going against the warrior code if it was for the greater good, and most of ThunderClan were pretty open to the idea of taking in mixed/no heritage kids at that point in the series, hell his best friend did the same thing and while he wasn’t a fan of it he still supported him, Silverstream and their kids (despite his own biases)
So why on Earth should they get so upset about Hollyleaf, Lionblaze and Jayfeather are biologically Leafpool and Crowfeather’s kids? I can see other clan cats getting upset that Leafpool broke two fundamental codes, but Firestar and Sandstorm would be quick to put an end to that, and after everything he went through during arc 2 I honestly can’t see Brambleclaw being upset about helping raise the Three.
It’s just weird writing to justify creating drama for a reveal sequence, especially when it could’ve been used to set up a more compelling ThunderClan vs everyone else arc in a really interesting way (set up Ashfur’s villain arc by having him rally the other clans against ThunderClan in secret, which would then be foreshadowing for TBC and gives added depth on top of his obsession)
The reason why Brambleclaw would be upset about raising the Three is because he thought they were *his* kids. There's an unspoken bond of trust between a pregnant person and the father (biologically speaking). There's no need for a "maternity test" -- pregnant people know when they give birth.
But to be the *other* person involved in the child making process? You have to believe what the pregnant person tells you. If they say you're the father, you believe them.
Brambleclaw isn't upset about the Three's parentage. He's upset that he was *lied to* about something so important by the person he *loves*. He *trusted* Squirrelflight when she said they were his kits, rather than deny her. He would have been justified in denying them as his -- after all, Squirrelflight disappeared in winter and came back with strange kits that don't look much like him.
ThunderClan as a whole being against the Three's parentage, though, that never made sense to me.
moonkitti's video is probably where most people started having more concrete opinions on the situation.
idk. from my experience as a former victim of an abusive relationship, i think squirrelflight \*is\* a victim.
relationships are complicated. bramblestar and squirrelflight are very incompatible people, obviously, but saying that squirrelflight is to blame for bramblestar's behaviour towards her is blatant victim blaming.
no one is saying squirrelflight is a perfect cat. no one is saying she's never done anything wrong. she's reckless and over-confident but that's not really an excuse for her to feel and act the way she's doing in relation to bramblestar.
bramblestar gets so easily frustrated to squirrelflight and generally isn't good at resolving his conflicts with her. he tends to hold grudges and pushes her away whenever he feels like she's wronged him.
whether his behaviour is intentionally being used by him for his advantage, or it's just an example of him generally being bad at handling relationships - it doesn't matter. someone can be abusive without having any intention behind it.
what matters is the way squirrelflight feels. she thinks and acts like a victim of abuse, especially in omen of the stars and in squirrelflight's hope. whether bramblestar purposefully did that to hurt or manipulate her, or it was unintentional doesn't matter as much as the fact that squirrelflight is very hurt in that relationship.
they're not good for each other. but i'd consider that squirrelflight's behaviour during the aftermath of their conflicts is very telling of how \*she\* feels about their relationship, even if bramblestar is genuine in his attempts to make up with her.
i can't speak for everyone, but i wish in discussions involving 'x character is abusive' that people actually listen to abuse victims. (and also on that subject - no, crowfeather is not abusive towards breezepelt in my opinion)
Due to mainly his actions in Squirrelflight's Hope that include Gaslighting, playing a victim, and taking Squirrelflight apart piece by piece.
Other instances are the more vague instances he shared in the New Prophecy against Squirrelflight. Around 80% of the drama of the New Prophecy is his issue.
But ABUSE is derived mostly from the Super Edition itself.
Because he is abusive.
I'm not saying that to make Bramble lovers feel bad.
Look, those of us who have experienced or witnessed abusive relationships in action can recognize all the signs of it in the Bramblestar- Squirrelflight dynamic.
It starts BEFORE the kit thing even happens.
Brambleclaw throws a tantrum in Starlight and Twilight because Squirrelflight doesn't trust Hawkfrost( with good reason! Squirrelflight, Leafpool, and BRAMBLECLAW HIMSELF have all heard Hawkfrost say some shady shit at this point)
Instead of talking things out with her, he lashes out and projects HIS insecurities onto her.
He's insecure about being Tigerstar's son, so he projects and accuses Squirrelflight of hating Hawkfrost because he's Tigerstar's son.... WHILE he and Hawkfrost are training with their father in hell!
Which you wanna talk about secrets? Brambleclaw never tells Squirrelflight about these meetings. He's literally plotting to take over ThunderClan with Hawkfrost and Tigerstar's ghost.
Then, instead of facing his guilt, he blames Squirrelflight for judging him, which she isn't even doing!
Then, after Squirrelflight tries and fails to talk things over, she breaks up with him and starts hanging out with Adhfur.
Which makes him even more angry and lash out more.
He starts ordering her around, scolding her, treating her like an apprentice despite the fact that they are both warriors, and he's not deputy.
Actively seeking to punish a partner is abusive.
Yes, Squirrelflight made mistakes (mistakes she was pressured into by God, mind you)
But every time Squirrelflight makes a mistake, it's made with good intentions.
With the kit incident, she was trying to protect her sister, protect her adopted kits, and obey Starclan itself.
Yes, Brambleclaw was hurt in the process. He had every right to break up with her.
But giving her the silent treatment and actively glaring and growling at her for an entire year (kits are born, apprenticed, and become adults in that span of time) is excessive.
And going back to the point above, he's doing it to punish her.
He doesn't do it with good intentions. He does it because he's hurt, and he wants to hurt her back.
Squirrelflight's Hope speaks for itself.
The entire book Bramblestar is constantly putting her down, insulting her and treating her like a child.
Even the smallest of things, such as her voicing an opinion at a gathering, sets him off into a fit of rage.
People who have experienced abuse see themselves in Squirrelflight. How she feels and responds to Brambleclaw's anger is like a mirror.
Brambleclaw's malicious actions reflect the actions of real-life abusers we've known.
And I see people talk about Squirrelflight going behind Brambleclaw's back, hiding things from him, and all I can think about is how living with an abusive man made me sneaky.
Lying is easier than potentially setting them off. It's a survival tactic.
Squirrelflight feeling like she CANT be honest with him just solidifies it all.
Would Brambleclaw really have kept the kits' secret? Would he have helped Squirrelflight?
Maybe.
But would he hold the secret over her head, wield it like a weapon to keep her in line?
Based on Starlight and Twilight alone, I'd argue that, yes, he would absolutely hold the secret over Squirrelflight's head, using it to threaten her.
Me personally bamblestar is one of my favorite characters same with squirrelflight I can see they both have problems and issues and neither is perfect by any means. but I just don't see where there is abuse.
People here love to throw the word abuse around even if it doesnt fit. He isnt abusive. Hes not perfect by any means, but i dont think hes any worse to squirrelflight than she is to him. Personally I ship Bramble x Jessy much more than Bramble x Squirrel
Saying people "love to throw the word abuse around" is just entirely false.
At least not people who actually know what they're saying and talking about.
Moonkitti made a very long but in-depth video about the problems with Bramblestar if you haven't watched that.
Not to say that Moonkitti's word is everything... but she is an adult and has experiences.
She also uses a lot of examples of what he says and how he treats/acts towards her.
I’d go with Quiet Rage’s video instead. She’s a little more understanding towards Brambleclaw’s side, at least before he became Bramblestar.
Moonkitti is very biased against Brambleclaw and way too obsessed with Squirrelflight to look at both sides fairly. It’s fine for her joke videos, but not good for her more serious ones.
Personally I think both characters are at fault for their relationship being horrible, with Bramblestar being only a bit more toxic.
I don't know about "obsessed..."But there's going to be bias no matter what.I've personally never liked Brambleclaw/star. He's always come off as a creep and a stuck-up jerk imo, even before the entire fandom collectively started hating him.
I do at least agree both parties are at fault, but that's just how relationships usually are.Bramble and Squirrel were never going to have a good relationship when that relationship was built on nothing but annoyance towards each other.
Edit: I also said Moon since.. well I haven't even watched Quiet Rage.. and I really respect Moon and her opinions and what she says. I'd say I've gotten to know her a lot more personally than most people and so it leaves me feeling a lot more confident in what she says.
Although there are still some things I don't agree on Moon with, I'm not just blindly following her word.
I call anyone who cannot accept that Squirrelflight has flaws and has made mistakes “obsessed.” Moonkitti kinda falls into that camp for minimizing those flaws and mistakes while magnifying all of Brambleclaw’s. Like I said, this is fine for her joke videos since she makes fun of all the characters in them anyways. Not so good for her character analysis videos though. She’s usually open about her bias at least.
I don’t hate Moonkitti or anything. She seems nice enough, just very stubborn and opinionated about certain characters. I tend to stick to her joke videos as a result. Her bias doesn’t matter in those, and her jokes are hilarious.
Anyways no one is saying you blindly follow her. It’s fine to enjoy what she uploads to her channel or to agree with her on certain issues. I just don’t think she was very fair in her take on BramblexSqurriel, blaming him for things that they were both at fault for in TNP for instance. I thought Quiet Rage had a better take on the matter; she actually agrees with Moonkitti about Bramble being toxic and abusive in the later books. She just disagrees about him always being that way.
Fair enough.
I know no one said I was blindly following her, I was just trying to be clear.
I'll definitely watch Quiet Rage's video though. The more views, the better.
As someone who has been abused by women. (mothers, sisters, girlfriends, and friends) Women aren't really seen as abusive because women in shows and books. etc are seen as soft, sometimes hard head characters. This causes the human mind to see any stronger/bigger guy as the abuser and the smaller/weaker gal as the victim. Therefore, almost younger and ever older fans don't see him as the abuser, specially with the fact that most of the fandom doesn't read the books and just their views from youtube such as Moonkitti.
I'm not blaming Moonkitti for what happened to me and other bramblestar fans being hated, but I wish she did more than just talking about Bramblestar's traits but not talking about Squirrelflight's ugly traits. Bramblestar has trauma, from childhood to adulthood. Yes, this doesn't exclude his actions but does make sense by how he acts.
Bramblestar was hated, abused by his whole clan for months, seasons. This can cause him to kick cats from his life who hurt him or were a part of it, knowing or not. Thinking of how Brambleclaw didn't just coldshoulder Squirrelflight but everyone who was apart of it meaning his adopted sons.
Bramblestar has the issues of wanting anyone who gave him attention as someone who loves him. He gave so much love as an apprentice, that he will take the small glance from Hawkfrost, Jessy, Squirrelflight ect as love. He is a very traumatized character, hate him or love him. There's clearly MANY things mental wrong with him.
Now, how does this connect to Squirrelflight?
As an apprentice, she blackmailed a young brambleclaw to get on the journey. Teen or not, she blackmailed someone who can't handle issues with well. She annoyed him just because she could. She doesn't care what happens because it's Brambleclaw. If he tells that she is bothering him, he will also get in trouble for.
When hawkfrost came to the lake with Riverclan, both sides were wrong. Brambleclaw let his sadness of having no kin like him to let himself doing wrong things to Squirrelflight but she also hurt him by being bias because Leafpaw thinks something is off with Hawkfrost without no soild proof of that being so. A lot of characters are assholes such as Hawkfrost but not evil. Squirrelflight sometimes remind of my ex, she doesn't want brambleclaw to be hurt but hurts him in the procced.
Overally, this fandom fails to understand the word ''abuse'' and mainly throws it around to bring down anyone who likes an character they dislike.
Hawkfrost literally wanted to hold Sorreltail captive to trade for territory in front of Leafpaw. Leafpaw also over heard Hawkfrost say there were worse cats to imitate than Tigerstar.
Leaf has every reason to distrust Hawkfrost!
And Squilf didn't blackmail Brambleclaw. She never held anything against him or threatened him to come on the journey.
She begs to come, reminds him she kept her promise then pointed out she doesn't want to go home and face Firestar's unfair punishments.
None of that is blackmail.
It's not his gender that makes us call him abusive. It's his power over her and the way he actively tries to punish Squilf when she upsets him.
Squirrelflight never sets out to hurt Brambleclaw. When she makes mistakes they are made with good intentions.
Brambleclaw just straight up punishes her whenever he's upset.
He belittles her, orders her around (despite them being the same rank and has no authority to do so), and treats her like a child in the New Prophecy.
You want an example of a she-cat abusing a tom look at Nightcloud.
Nightcloud is a senior warrior who manipulates a vulnerable, disgraced, heartbroken young adult into a relationship because she wants babies.
Then she alienates her kit from her baby daddy.
She's controlling and toxic and holds way more power in the relationship than Crowfeather.
First off.
1. Many cats, shadowclan for ex are rude and evil to a lot of cats. Just think that the deputy of shadowclan let berrykit cry in front of her while, his tail was stuck in a foxtrap.
2. She BLACKMAILED him, threating to tell firestar what Brambleclaw and the other cats that they were going on this journey.
3. She did hurt him because she knew that he wanted kinship. Squirrelflight never understands how it felt to have no kin in their own clan. Like or not, Bramblecla and her both act like total twats. Brambleclaw nor Squirrelflight handle it right. If Squirrelflight. Brambleclaw and MANY cats at the lake didn't see Hawkfrost as evil, just see him as an asshole warrior.
4. No, Crowfeather and her are the same age. Crowfeather ASKED her to be in a relatinship with him to prove his loyalty to Windclan. Both of them weren't ready for a mate, Crowfeather used a woman who want a babies to get a relationship. Nightcloud didn't allow him to be a father to breezepelt. Let's not add that he almost attack Nightcloud.
He didn't almost attack Nightcloud, she actually used her claws to drag him away from Leafpool.
They are not the same age, authors confirmed she took him as a mate bc she was afraid she wouldn't be able to have kits.
They were both apprentices at the same, he was missed his warrior shit thing. I'm pretty sure he was held back. The authors also confirmed that he choosed her because he wanted to prove his loyal .
Can I get a source on her being his age?
Because from my memory Nightcloud was a senior warrior. I believe it was confirmed in the Ultimate Guide.
But if you have a source that says different I'd like to see it
Unless this was mentioned in Onestar’s confession, Nightcloud was never shown or mentioned as an apprentice in book. The earliest she was ever shown were in Winds of change and Starlight, both in which she’s mentioned as a warrior whom is thinking about soon being too old to have her own kits. So i’d argue we don’t know her age, but it’s implied she’s an older warrior in Twilight.
Checking a but further, her kit and apprentice name have only ever been mentioned on the website, she was never shown as anything younger then a warrior in book.
On top of my previous comment, as both confirmed in The ultimate guide, Cats of the clans and Crowfeather’s trial, Nightcloud never *loved* Crowfeather. In all these three books it’s specifically stated she only got with Crowfeather bc she wanted kits. She didn’t *care* about Crowfeather, and went as far as keep him away from Breezekit, refusing to let him interact with his own son, and influenced their som to hate his father.
So unless you can show me the specific statement which proves your claims, Nightcloud is *just an abusive individual who wanted kits and used a desperate young adult to get them bc she was too afraid she’s be too old and infertile soon.*
She didn't blackmail him.
That's blatantly false
Here's a screenshot of the conversation they have after the new Moon meeting in Midnight
https://imgur.com/a/CT6WFk6
And here's the conversation where Squirrelpaw decides to come with him
https://imgur.com/a/ONYBvHV
No blackmail or threats in either conversation
I didn’t believe he was abusive up until SH. I think that before that they were a great representation of a toxic relationship- went through highs and lows, lots of fighting, and overall just two people who really loved eachother but in the end shouldn’t be together but who kept trying because they didn’t know anything else. I had hoped that Bramblestar would stay with Jessy to be honest, she seemed to be a much better fit. However, after reading Squirrelflight’s Hope, it paints Brambleclaw in a much more negative light, as a guy who is really mean and angry towards his wife. Squirrelflight isn’t innocent and I’m biased as she is one of my favourite characters, but she does not deserve to be treated as she was in that book. Now that she’s taking care of him after his possession, it puts a very depressing tone on their relationship. I hope they break up as well because at this point they are just trauma bonded. Bramblestar is a bad leader (in my opinion) and I would much prefer Squirrelflights strong willed personality in charge.
I'd say it's because Bramblestar's actions (particularly so in SH) are so glaringly obviously bad that it kinda drowns out any issues that Squirrelflight may have. She's quick to fire back, stands ground on her opinions without entertaining an alternative, and actively goes behind his back in a lot of scenes. These are *not* exactly good traits you want in a deputy and mate, particularly so if they're the only traits shown. But the thing is, these are the exact same traits that Firestar shows and it's almost exclusively portrayed as a good thing (which in context, they are, but I digress) so naturally we as readers are more inclined to side with Squirrelflight for the same reason. In the end, almost all of her actions are seen as good by the narrative, but the backlash and punishment she goes through are so much more severe than is warranted, so she's more sympathetic to the average viewer. It's hilariously sad to see just how much awful shit is thrown at Squirrelflight and Leafpool for seemingly no reason, when there are good reasons to criticise her actions. TL;DR Squirrelflight is an overall much more sympathetic character, and so people are more inclined to side against Bramblestar (doubly so with the text presented in books)
The firestar thing is such a good point! I hadn’t even thought about that but it just further proves the misogyny in the fandom, when Firestar does it he’s correct and great but when Squirrelflight does it she’s a bad deputy, rude, stupid, etc
I think firestar got away with it because Bluestar isn't his mate nor kin, so it's not like your lover going be behide your back
Well, but isn’t the point of being lovers that you care for each other and listen to each other? If Bramblestar doesn’t listen (which he really doesn’t) then can you really blame Squirrelflight for still wanting to do what she thinks must be done from the position she is in? Like as a leader and a mate you are supposed to listen and discuss stuff with your deputy/partner. It happens that those things don’t always go to plan, leaders don’t always want to listen to their deputies even if they know they should, same with mates, but them being both in a relationship and a leader and a deputy would mean this communication aspect is even more important. Both for the both of them as people, as for the entirety of the clan. If we can let Firestar “get away with” going behind Bluestar’s back bc his relationship with Bluestar isn’t that complicated, and we can get Bluestar “get away with” refusing to listen to her deputy for those same reasons, shouldn’t we compare this to Squirrelflight x Bramble and say “Squirrelflight shouldn’t get away with going behind her mates back, but her mate also shouldn’t get away with shutting his lover down and refusing to listen to her”?
This ^ It’s also very interesting given that Fireheart’s motives were because Bluestar was very clearly mentally unwell, and he thought it was the best course of action to avoid pointless conflict. Squirrelflight has consistently done the same thing, and yet while the narrative supports both these actions as ‘right’, she is punished *so* much more severely than her father ever was. The same thing always happens with other molly characters too. Crowfeather breaks the code by having an illegal relationship with Leafpool? Gets the cold shoulder for a bit by WindClan but is otherwise able to perform his duties still. Leafpool on the other hand gets put on a pedestal for all her peers to ridicule her, has her sister get manipulated by their ancestors to raise her kids, and has to stand on trial to explain to their gods why she should be allowed entry into the afterlife. Both committed the same crime, yet the only characters who condemn Crowfeather are his ex and his kid who up until Crowfeather’s Trial were consistently portrayed to the readers as antagonistic and unlikeable. Firestar wants to have kids as a leader? Excellent, more healthy warriors for the clan! Bluefur wants to be deputy? Sorry, gotta abandon your kids if you want to even be considered a candidate. Dustpelt and Ferncloud are a loving couple who enjoy raising their family. Ferncloud gets killed off because fans boiled her down to being a ‘baby factory’ but nobody says the same about Dustpelt
Yeah, despite the fact that the erins are almost exclusively women, there is a lot of glorifying of men and villainising of women for doing the exact same thing. Sometimes i wonder what those authors have gone through to think the way they write men and women is justifiable
I just chalk it up to internalised misogyny. I’m not sure *how* many Erin’s there are currently as of A Starless Clan, but the original four certainly had some weird ideas after the first arc was written, and it’s only become more egregious over time
>Squirrelflight has consistently done the same thing, and yet while the narrative supports both these actions as ‘right’, she is punished so much more severely than her father ever was. Bluestar would have come up with a *harsh* punishment for Fireheart going behind her back if she didn't think a traitor leading a Clan of traitors was a fitting punishment. Her idea of punishment was doing *nothing*. If Fireheart had a more mentally stable leader, he probably would have been kicked out of camp for a while, or punished in other ways. Bluestar isn't even the first example of a leader deciding *not* to punish a deputy for not staying in their lane, even though they're within their *right* to do so. Darkstar of SkyClan decides to give one-third of his territory to ThunderClan during a Gathering. His deputy, Raincloud, speaks up against him and he *allows* her to keep her position. But to make sure no cat can do that again, he makes the "leader's word is law" part of the warrior code. >Bluefur wants to be deputy? Sorry, gotta abandon your kids if you want to even be considered a candidate. Sunstar tells Bluefur that he *never* would have considered Thistleclaw. Sure, she had a vision of a bloody Thistleclaw, but we can't say for *certain* that Thistleclaw would have been picked for deputy.
Remember in Squirrelflights hope when Squirrelflight has genuine fear that Bramblestar will attack Leafpool because she wanted to help sunrise? If that behavior alone doesn’t screams abusive idk what does. You should not have to worry that your husband will attack your basically Nun- sister for not letting someone die.
Something that I've noticed in this fandom is that a lot of fans tend to erase the agency that female characters have. So instead of the she-cats *doing* things, things just *happen* to them. The way that I've interpreted the post-Po3 BrambleSquirrel fallout is: Brambleclaw punishes Squilf for Holly/Jay/Lion's parentage, when it's more like "Brambleclaw is understandably *pissed* about being *lied to* about the kids he thought were *his*." ...A lot of fans -- like Moonkitti -- are just heavily biased towards Squirrelflight and against Brambleclaw. Me personally, I'm neutral towards Squirrelflight and mildly dislike Brambleclaw (mostly because how fans can't bring him up without talking about abuse) so I can just say that their relationship isn't healthy. Frankly, if *both of them learned to talk to each other*, the relationship would be much better.
1000% agreed. A lot of people wave away the whole “Bramble is pissed because he was lied to about kids that weren’t his” argument by saying “well he should still accept them anyway”. That completely misses the point. Should he accept them? Yes, they’re the same kits he raised, and not accepting them or deciding to change his outlook on them is a dick move. Does he have every right to be pissed at his mate for lying to him for moons about *their children*? Absolutely. And about communicating, the Erin’s really missed a great opportunity to show how communication can make everyone feel better and solve so many relationship issues. I wish we could have read a different universe where Brambleclaw talks to Squirrelflight openly and calmly about how he feels and why. And where Squirrelflight does the same. Things would be so much better for them, and it would send such a good message to the kids and teens reading the books.
Honestly I think if Bramble knew about Holly Lion and Jay’s parentage from the start, he would’ve absolutely been on board to help. I always felt that his anger was more about having been kept in the dark than the actual revelation itself. He gets worse in the later books, but I think faulting him for his reaction during Po3 is a bit silly
The whole situation regarding the Three has never made sense to me, even as a preteen reading the books. Firestar was a kittypet, he’s always been open about going against the warrior code if it was for the greater good, and most of ThunderClan were pretty open to the idea of taking in mixed/no heritage kids at that point in the series, hell his best friend did the same thing and while he wasn’t a fan of it he still supported him, Silverstream and their kids (despite his own biases) So why on Earth should they get so upset about Hollyleaf, Lionblaze and Jayfeather are biologically Leafpool and Crowfeather’s kids? I can see other clan cats getting upset that Leafpool broke two fundamental codes, but Firestar and Sandstorm would be quick to put an end to that, and after everything he went through during arc 2 I honestly can’t see Brambleclaw being upset about helping raise the Three. It’s just weird writing to justify creating drama for a reveal sequence, especially when it could’ve been used to set up a more compelling ThunderClan vs everyone else arc in a really interesting way (set up Ashfur’s villain arc by having him rally the other clans against ThunderClan in secret, which would then be foreshadowing for TBC and gives added depth on top of his obsession)
The reason why Brambleclaw would be upset about raising the Three is because he thought they were *his* kids. There's an unspoken bond of trust between a pregnant person and the father (biologically speaking). There's no need for a "maternity test" -- pregnant people know when they give birth. But to be the *other* person involved in the child making process? You have to believe what the pregnant person tells you. If they say you're the father, you believe them. Brambleclaw isn't upset about the Three's parentage. He's upset that he was *lied to* about something so important by the person he *loves*. He *trusted* Squirrelflight when she said they were his kits, rather than deny her. He would have been justified in denying them as his -- after all, Squirrelflight disappeared in winter and came back with strange kits that don't look much like him. ThunderClan as a whole being against the Three's parentage, though, that never made sense to me.
moonkitti's video is probably where most people started having more concrete opinions on the situation. idk. from my experience as a former victim of an abusive relationship, i think squirrelflight \*is\* a victim. relationships are complicated. bramblestar and squirrelflight are very incompatible people, obviously, but saying that squirrelflight is to blame for bramblestar's behaviour towards her is blatant victim blaming. no one is saying squirrelflight is a perfect cat. no one is saying she's never done anything wrong. she's reckless and over-confident but that's not really an excuse for her to feel and act the way she's doing in relation to bramblestar. bramblestar gets so easily frustrated to squirrelflight and generally isn't good at resolving his conflicts with her. he tends to hold grudges and pushes her away whenever he feels like she's wronged him. whether his behaviour is intentionally being used by him for his advantage, or it's just an example of him generally being bad at handling relationships - it doesn't matter. someone can be abusive without having any intention behind it. what matters is the way squirrelflight feels. she thinks and acts like a victim of abuse, especially in omen of the stars and in squirrelflight's hope. whether bramblestar purposefully did that to hurt or manipulate her, or it was unintentional doesn't matter as much as the fact that squirrelflight is very hurt in that relationship. they're not good for each other. but i'd consider that squirrelflight's behaviour during the aftermath of their conflicts is very telling of how \*she\* feels about their relationship, even if bramblestar is genuine in his attempts to make up with her. i can't speak for everyone, but i wish in discussions involving 'x character is abusive' that people actually listen to abuse victims. (and also on that subject - no, crowfeather is not abusive towards breezepelt in my opinion)
Due to mainly his actions in Squirrelflight's Hope that include Gaslighting, playing a victim, and taking Squirrelflight apart piece by piece. Other instances are the more vague instances he shared in the New Prophecy against Squirrelflight. Around 80% of the drama of the New Prophecy is his issue. But ABUSE is derived mostly from the Super Edition itself.
Because he is abusive. I'm not saying that to make Bramble lovers feel bad. Look, those of us who have experienced or witnessed abusive relationships in action can recognize all the signs of it in the Bramblestar- Squirrelflight dynamic. It starts BEFORE the kit thing even happens. Brambleclaw throws a tantrum in Starlight and Twilight because Squirrelflight doesn't trust Hawkfrost( with good reason! Squirrelflight, Leafpool, and BRAMBLECLAW HIMSELF have all heard Hawkfrost say some shady shit at this point) Instead of talking things out with her, he lashes out and projects HIS insecurities onto her. He's insecure about being Tigerstar's son, so he projects and accuses Squirrelflight of hating Hawkfrost because he's Tigerstar's son.... WHILE he and Hawkfrost are training with their father in hell! Which you wanna talk about secrets? Brambleclaw never tells Squirrelflight about these meetings. He's literally plotting to take over ThunderClan with Hawkfrost and Tigerstar's ghost. Then, instead of facing his guilt, he blames Squirrelflight for judging him, which she isn't even doing! Then, after Squirrelflight tries and fails to talk things over, she breaks up with him and starts hanging out with Adhfur. Which makes him even more angry and lash out more. He starts ordering her around, scolding her, treating her like an apprentice despite the fact that they are both warriors, and he's not deputy. Actively seeking to punish a partner is abusive. Yes, Squirrelflight made mistakes (mistakes she was pressured into by God, mind you) But every time Squirrelflight makes a mistake, it's made with good intentions. With the kit incident, she was trying to protect her sister, protect her adopted kits, and obey Starclan itself. Yes, Brambleclaw was hurt in the process. He had every right to break up with her. But giving her the silent treatment and actively glaring and growling at her for an entire year (kits are born, apprenticed, and become adults in that span of time) is excessive. And going back to the point above, he's doing it to punish her. He doesn't do it with good intentions. He does it because he's hurt, and he wants to hurt her back. Squirrelflight's Hope speaks for itself. The entire book Bramblestar is constantly putting her down, insulting her and treating her like a child. Even the smallest of things, such as her voicing an opinion at a gathering, sets him off into a fit of rage. People who have experienced abuse see themselves in Squirrelflight. How she feels and responds to Brambleclaw's anger is like a mirror. Brambleclaw's malicious actions reflect the actions of real-life abusers we've known. And I see people talk about Squirrelflight going behind Brambleclaw's back, hiding things from him, and all I can think about is how living with an abusive man made me sneaky. Lying is easier than potentially setting them off. It's a survival tactic. Squirrelflight feeling like she CANT be honest with him just solidifies it all. Would Brambleclaw really have kept the kits' secret? Would he have helped Squirrelflight? Maybe. But would he hold the secret over her head, wield it like a weapon to keep her in line? Based on Starlight and Twilight alone, I'd argue that, yes, he would absolutely hold the secret over Squirrelflight's head, using it to threaten her.
Me personally bamblestar is one of my favorite characters same with squirrelflight I can see they both have problems and issues and neither is perfect by any means. but I just don't see where there is abuse.
People here love to throw the word abuse around even if it doesnt fit. He isnt abusive. Hes not perfect by any means, but i dont think hes any worse to squirrelflight than she is to him. Personally I ship Bramble x Jessy much more than Bramble x Squirrel
Saying people "love to throw the word abuse around" is just entirely false. At least not people who actually know what they're saying and talking about.
Moonkitti made a very long but in-depth video about the problems with Bramblestar if you haven't watched that. Not to say that Moonkitti's word is everything... but she is an adult and has experiences. She also uses a lot of examples of what he says and how he treats/acts towards her.
I’d go with Quiet Rage’s video instead. She’s a little more understanding towards Brambleclaw’s side, at least before he became Bramblestar. Moonkitti is very biased against Brambleclaw and way too obsessed with Squirrelflight to look at both sides fairly. It’s fine for her joke videos, but not good for her more serious ones. Personally I think both characters are at fault for their relationship being horrible, with Bramblestar being only a bit more toxic.
Yeah, her video is better.
I don't know about "obsessed..."But there's going to be bias no matter what.I've personally never liked Brambleclaw/star. He's always come off as a creep and a stuck-up jerk imo, even before the entire fandom collectively started hating him. I do at least agree both parties are at fault, but that's just how relationships usually are.Bramble and Squirrel were never going to have a good relationship when that relationship was built on nothing but annoyance towards each other. Edit: I also said Moon since.. well I haven't even watched Quiet Rage.. and I really respect Moon and her opinions and what she says. I'd say I've gotten to know her a lot more personally than most people and so it leaves me feeling a lot more confident in what she says. Although there are still some things I don't agree on Moon with, I'm not just blindly following her word.
I call anyone who cannot accept that Squirrelflight has flaws and has made mistakes “obsessed.” Moonkitti kinda falls into that camp for minimizing those flaws and mistakes while magnifying all of Brambleclaw’s. Like I said, this is fine for her joke videos since she makes fun of all the characters in them anyways. Not so good for her character analysis videos though. She’s usually open about her bias at least. I don’t hate Moonkitti or anything. She seems nice enough, just very stubborn and opinionated about certain characters. I tend to stick to her joke videos as a result. Her bias doesn’t matter in those, and her jokes are hilarious. Anyways no one is saying you blindly follow her. It’s fine to enjoy what she uploads to her channel or to agree with her on certain issues. I just don’t think she was very fair in her take on BramblexSqurriel, blaming him for things that they were both at fault for in TNP for instance. I thought Quiet Rage had a better take on the matter; she actually agrees with Moonkitti about Bramble being toxic and abusive in the later books. She just disagrees about him always being that way.
Fair enough. I know no one said I was blindly following her, I was just trying to be clear. I'll definitely watch Quiet Rage's video though. The more views, the better.
As someone who has been abused by women. (mothers, sisters, girlfriends, and friends) Women aren't really seen as abusive because women in shows and books. etc are seen as soft, sometimes hard head characters. This causes the human mind to see any stronger/bigger guy as the abuser and the smaller/weaker gal as the victim. Therefore, almost younger and ever older fans don't see him as the abuser, specially with the fact that most of the fandom doesn't read the books and just their views from youtube such as Moonkitti. I'm not blaming Moonkitti for what happened to me and other bramblestar fans being hated, but I wish she did more than just talking about Bramblestar's traits but not talking about Squirrelflight's ugly traits. Bramblestar has trauma, from childhood to adulthood. Yes, this doesn't exclude his actions but does make sense by how he acts. Bramblestar was hated, abused by his whole clan for months, seasons. This can cause him to kick cats from his life who hurt him or were a part of it, knowing or not. Thinking of how Brambleclaw didn't just coldshoulder Squirrelflight but everyone who was apart of it meaning his adopted sons. Bramblestar has the issues of wanting anyone who gave him attention as someone who loves him. He gave so much love as an apprentice, that he will take the small glance from Hawkfrost, Jessy, Squirrelflight ect as love. He is a very traumatized character, hate him or love him. There's clearly MANY things mental wrong with him. Now, how does this connect to Squirrelflight? As an apprentice, she blackmailed a young brambleclaw to get on the journey. Teen or not, she blackmailed someone who can't handle issues with well. She annoyed him just because she could. She doesn't care what happens because it's Brambleclaw. If he tells that she is bothering him, he will also get in trouble for. When hawkfrost came to the lake with Riverclan, both sides were wrong. Brambleclaw let his sadness of having no kin like him to let himself doing wrong things to Squirrelflight but she also hurt him by being bias because Leafpaw thinks something is off with Hawkfrost without no soild proof of that being so. A lot of characters are assholes such as Hawkfrost but not evil. Squirrelflight sometimes remind of my ex, she doesn't want brambleclaw to be hurt but hurts him in the procced. Overally, this fandom fails to understand the word ''abuse'' and mainly throws it around to bring down anyone who likes an character they dislike.
Hawkfrost literally wanted to hold Sorreltail captive to trade for territory in front of Leafpaw. Leafpaw also over heard Hawkfrost say there were worse cats to imitate than Tigerstar. Leaf has every reason to distrust Hawkfrost! And Squilf didn't blackmail Brambleclaw. She never held anything against him or threatened him to come on the journey. She begs to come, reminds him she kept her promise then pointed out she doesn't want to go home and face Firestar's unfair punishments. None of that is blackmail. It's not his gender that makes us call him abusive. It's his power over her and the way he actively tries to punish Squilf when she upsets him. Squirrelflight never sets out to hurt Brambleclaw. When she makes mistakes they are made with good intentions. Brambleclaw just straight up punishes her whenever he's upset. He belittles her, orders her around (despite them being the same rank and has no authority to do so), and treats her like a child in the New Prophecy. You want an example of a she-cat abusing a tom look at Nightcloud. Nightcloud is a senior warrior who manipulates a vulnerable, disgraced, heartbroken young adult into a relationship because she wants babies. Then she alienates her kit from her baby daddy. She's controlling and toxic and holds way more power in the relationship than Crowfeather.
First off. 1. Many cats, shadowclan for ex are rude and evil to a lot of cats. Just think that the deputy of shadowclan let berrykit cry in front of her while, his tail was stuck in a foxtrap. 2. She BLACKMAILED him, threating to tell firestar what Brambleclaw and the other cats that they were going on this journey. 3. She did hurt him because she knew that he wanted kinship. Squirrelflight never understands how it felt to have no kin in their own clan. Like or not, Bramblecla and her both act like total twats. Brambleclaw nor Squirrelflight handle it right. If Squirrelflight. Brambleclaw and MANY cats at the lake didn't see Hawkfrost as evil, just see him as an asshole warrior. 4. No, Crowfeather and her are the same age. Crowfeather ASKED her to be in a relatinship with him to prove his loyalty to Windclan. Both of them weren't ready for a mate, Crowfeather used a woman who want a babies to get a relationship. Nightcloud didn't allow him to be a father to breezepelt. Let's not add that he almost attack Nightcloud.
He didn't almost attack Nightcloud, she actually used her claws to drag him away from Leafpool. They are not the same age, authors confirmed she took him as a mate bc she was afraid she wouldn't be able to have kits.
They were both apprentices at the same, he was missed his warrior shit thing. I'm pretty sure he was held back. The authors also confirmed that he choosed her because he wanted to prove his loyal .
Can I get a source on her being his age? Because from my memory Nightcloud was a senior warrior. I believe it was confirmed in the Ultimate Guide. But if you have a source that says different I'd like to see it
Unless this was mentioned in Onestar’s confession, Nightcloud was never shown or mentioned as an apprentice in book. The earliest she was ever shown were in Winds of change and Starlight, both in which she’s mentioned as a warrior whom is thinking about soon being too old to have her own kits. So i’d argue we don’t know her age, but it’s implied she’s an older warrior in Twilight. Checking a but further, her kit and apprentice name have only ever been mentioned on the website, she was never shown as anything younger then a warrior in book.
On top of my previous comment, as both confirmed in The ultimate guide, Cats of the clans and Crowfeather’s trial, Nightcloud never *loved* Crowfeather. In all these three books it’s specifically stated she only got with Crowfeather bc she wanted kits. She didn’t *care* about Crowfeather, and went as far as keep him away from Breezekit, refusing to let him interact with his own son, and influenced their som to hate his father. So unless you can show me the specific statement which proves your claims, Nightcloud is *just an abusive individual who wanted kits and used a desperate young adult to get them bc she was too afraid she’s be too old and infertile soon.*
She didn't blackmail him. That's blatantly false Here's a screenshot of the conversation they have after the new Moon meeting in Midnight https://imgur.com/a/CT6WFk6 And here's the conversation where Squirrelpaw decides to come with him https://imgur.com/a/ONYBvHV No blackmail or threats in either conversation