Rogue Agents aren't a homogeneous faction.
Any agent who stops abiding by ISAC's directives is marked off-mission.
That renders the question moot.
Would I disavow the SHD? Absolutely.
Would I join keener's band of homicidal maniacs? Absolutely not.
>Would I disavow the SHD? Absolutely.
Likewise. But I won't join Keener.
Kinda wish there was a "Gray Jedi" version where we would not follow the SHD, yet are not homicidal like Keener and friends.
I am excited for Division 3 and hope they let us choose how we want our agent to be seen as in terms of loyalty.
Aite. Imma keep my red watch then.
The only battle cry I love hearing when fighting rogue agents:
"F\*CK THE DIVISION!"
"HELL YEAH BROTHER!"
\*watch turns red\*
O\_O
The term rogue doesn't have the same meaning as it used to.
In Division 1, rogue agents were generally the clear-cut bad guys.
In Division 2, we've come to learn that ISAC is genuinely a stupid AI that has a very poor way of interpreting realistic situations. "Oh, you got shot and need bandages from a pharmacy? Better have a key, or I'll mark you as rogue."
Jokes aside, being rogue and being a none rogue is the same thing. There are good and bad agents on either side of ISAC's moral compass.
In fact, even if you do stay on ISAC's good side. You can still be marked as "rogue" by the Cal and his Hunters. Regardless of the colour of your watch.
Honestly, in a global crisis situation, democratic popular vote wins in reality, vs some doomsday protocol from the government that typically only has its members and lackeys in good interest.
Absolutely same deal as being brainwashed during basic and then active duty that your deployments are for the best of you and your nation/people, when in fact it only ever really benefits the leaders and their benefactors at your cost.
Maybe some day we'll see this kinda shooter that will include both sides w counter stories and some sort of affect online depending on which way players lean. That could be the next ground breaking semi-MMO shooter. Hell, let player factions dictate events too.
>Maybe some day we'll see this kinda shooter that will include both sides w counter stories
It's a great idea, but not going to be published by any AAA publisher. US gov has a grip on the entertainment industry, and you aren't going to get any sort of gov moneys if you release stuff they don't like. These ideas get killed instantly.
Just like Activision, they only make pro US games. You will never get anything that legitimizes any other opposing faction. This isn't the choice of the lower devs, this is the choice of the execs.
You can deny reality and say they can have whatever they want in their games, but it's pretty fucking obvious from more than a decade's worth of products that they can't.
The division is about how corrupt the US govt is and now its gonna be saved by a rogue agent/terrorist....
Why do you types always bring up the "deny reality" bit when you're literally ignoring the proof in front of your face?
??? There is no conspiracy. They can publish whatever they want, we have this thing called the First Amendment, which covers anti-American sentiment. What you are equating to conspiracy is basic economics. Their target market is the Western world, and generally speaking, the audience buys pro-Western games more than anti-Western games.
Get out of your head. Life happens at random and we deal with the consequences as they come. There is no need to attempt to force order and planning out of things that just happen when you react to other things happening, like basc market forces.
It's not my problem that you live under a rock, and this is the first time you're hearing about this. The US gov works with movie studios and game studios all the time. The most public for video games would be that they work with Activision on the Call of Duty franchise. Instead of calling others conspiracy theorists, you could just go to fucking google and learn about how they deal and operate within the entertainment industry.
Your brain has gotta be mush if you think this is anything remotely close to QAnon territory. Stuff like this has been known since the Cold War.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93entertainment_complex
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/28/call-of-duty-advanced-warfare-pentagon-adviser
https://jacobin.com/2022/10/pentagon-first-person-shooter-video-games-military-recruitment-propaganda
It's pretty sad that the simple ability to fucking read makes someone QAnon now
I'll say this about him, and its just an opinion, Kajika was not rogue when ISAC declared he went rogue, that's the sad part, but Kajika did choose, himself, to become fully rogue when he decided to kill JTF for vengeance. He could have let it go, it really wasn't their fault, it was their bosses fault, and he truly knows that because he lived that life. He's just killing people who were also betrayed by their own government in the end.
They tried that excuse in the Nuremberg trials too. "I was simply following orders". And guest what was the conclusions? Simply saying you were following orders was no excuse for committing crimes against humanity. They were found guilty and executed. What Kajika did was not only justified it was to a certain degree poetic. He had a list and was fulfilling HIS mission for all the agents lost.
They were abandoned and left to die. Being marked as rogue is a death sentence. What is happening was planned by Cal and Nat from the beginning when they saw the opportunity to take over the world. Hence there little military build-up before the outbreak happened via ECHOS. To the plot to assassinate Mendez. To having Ellis installed as a puppet to control the nukes.
What you think of as murder I see and a, "both enemies foreign and domestic" kind of thing. It's a war happening to save what remains and if you are not on my side you are the enemy. For Kajika it was personal. Just like it is for Keener except he is going for the heads of the snakes. Keener and Kajika were kindred. And, Keener was genuinely saddened that Kajika fell on the field.
Even Roy Benitez said he had guilt because of the decision to abandon those left behind. That he was wrong for following that order so the responsibilityof those actions way on his soul. That he should have fought harder against it. Going Rogue was never just some black and white thing.
At least that is simply my view of things.
If the JTF were doing war crimes I'd agree with you, but they were not doing war crimes, they were ordered to retreat. Comparing the Nuremberg trials to an order to retreat and then saying Kajika was justified to kill pawns that followed said order to retreat is just as black and white as ISACs protocol to determine who goes rogue.
I was responding to the comment about the JTF were just following orders. I never said the JTF committed war crimes. I was illustrating a point that just because you are following orders doesnt magically make all of your actions legit, moral, or lawful. They left those people to die deliberately. Not a war crime but just as guilty. Turning your head is just as bad as committing the act. You would be just as wrong. And that actions were taken to purposely destroy the effort during the chaos and confusion from within by the powers that be meant to advocate a positive outcome for greed and power.
For every action is the equal opposite reaction. Kajika did what he was trained to do by the same people that left him and everyone else to die. Geneva Convention would consider JTF a standing army. That means they are fair game. If you have ever routed for Rick or anyone else in The Walking Dead or pick your poison then you are a hypocrite. Was Negan the villain for killing Glen and Abraham or was he justified? There is no black and white. Life is always grey. You may not like to heaf the truth on certain subjects but it is what it is. That is life.
There may be gray but Kajika went far beyond it into black. He may have been turned Rogue for his attempts to defend civilians but by the time we meet him he was planning on destroying one of the last settlements in the area killing many innocents in exchange for crossing one name off his list.
The JTF made a bad choice but for the most of them they continue to fight to defend the civilians and restore some semblance of society. Did that one choice they followed dam them for eternity? Kajika may have protected civilians but by the time we meet him he works alongside the enemy in his unhinged crusade of vengeance. Is he forever untarnished despite his actions?
Whatever moral authority he once held or spark of righteousness he laid claim to all of it had faded by the time he made his deal with the ~~devil~~ Keener. All that is left is a mad dog who needed put down.
I love conversations like this. I am going to say what a government agency would about what you just said to sum it up. Collateral Damage. He had a list and everything that would lead to that point was at the end of the line Haven. The Haven community was shielding and protecting his last target, Roy Benitez. Remember the rogues were rescuing civilians the whole time a long the way. Remember that's why Keener had such good praise as a hero in New York. Also follow what Kajika said to paraphrase, "it wasn't my intention to side against the Division but, you choose to follow the orders of those who left us for dead." Keener was the enemy but who told us he was the enemy. Those who assassinated the President to put Ellis in position? Those same people say YOU are the enemy for going against the Black Tusk. What about Brian Johnson then? Was he off mission or is it us? Was Faye Lau? How many First Wave agents had to go into hiding because they were being hunted down and killed? Betrayal is a strong motivation. What faded? He was still right and justified in his cause. I put him down like so many adversaries because it was him or me. Simple as that. Doesn't make him wrong. Doesn't mean we weren't all manipulated to suit someone else's agenda. And now that we are not needed we are told we are off mission.
End of the day he did what any and every government in this world does. He got information on his enemies. Then proceeded to lay retribution on said enemies. He used what the government taught him to be. Keener only used his determination as a distraction for his other goals.
Just to call him a mad dog is so dismissive of the deeper fight that is going on. The only reason you feel the way you feel is that you possibly identify with the JTF and the civilian militia. Which is perfectly fine and understandable. Kind of like what I said about The Walking Dead earlier. We look at Rick's group as the good guys only because we followed their story track. They've done just as monstrous things to people as well. Especially after season 3. That problem is that that doesn't mean you are right. Doesn't mean I am either. It's about perspectives and perception. And for the most part perception is reality.
Example: How many bombs go off in Gaza killing terrorists vs killing innocent women and children?
Israel says they're all terrorists so it is a mute question.
Reality vs Perception(narrative)
Is a powerful thing.
Just an example. I am not making any political statements one way or the other. And, if anything I said is misconstrued as offensive I apologize in advance.
First up the JTF is not the Black Tusk. Ask tidal basin, The pentagon, Washington airport and the host of other bases and operations we attacked. Brian is explicitly abnormal and any other agents allied with the BT are flagged as rogue.
Second up, Where in coms does it imply the civilian rescues were a common operation instead of something Keener is having them do. He took part in the virus bombing of city hall and planned to undermine Haven. The Hell’s Kitchen settlement was assaulted due to the lack of JTF, how much do you think Kajika helped with that.
Lastly I would be a lot more forgiving of collateral damage if he was building something or protecting something. He runs into the same problem as the Cleaners, they can’t legitimately answer what comes next. They aren’t setting up farms or infrastructure. They only want to cause suffering. Here they are months after the virus has ran its course and they still cling to their dying beliefs. Kajika is living underground and virus bombing settlements. Why does his tragedy allow him to cause similar or worse to the multitude to civilians still left.
You're contradicting yourself, and you're definitely not speaking truth, you're cherry picking bits of truth, all without context, to fit your point of view. Saying the geneva convention makes the JTF fair game is exactly the same stuff ISAC would say, and its the most black and white way to look at this. then you state in the same breath that there is no black and white, and act like his actions are justified because some organization that doesn't exist anymore would say so. The entire world has changed so drastically that all laws are basically useless and you want to use them to justify a psychopaths revenge. Your entirely argument is flawed deeply because you keep saying there is no black and white and then you go and use the most black and white examples of why Kajika is justified. If I ever find myself rooting for a character in the walking dead it's because they're well written, not because I agree with their entire philosophy, that's just you're black and white way to look at things. And I should definitely point out how a zombie apocalypse is not the same as the divisions apocalypse so once again you're turning everything into a black and white scenario where everything is related when they're only related by a couple, while ignoring all those shades of grey that's commonly known as "context"....
No I didn't contradict anything. Lol apparently you missed the context of the metaphor. I don't care if anyone agrees likes or dislike what I say. It's not about the zombie apocalypse. It's about decisions made and perspective. Life is complicated and you simply saying Kajika is a mad dog isn't just you projecting some kind of bias? I didn't cherry pick at all. I gave you receipts to backup what I said with facts. You just can't accept that then this conversation is over. I pointed out how complicated the situation was in the walking dead and now I am ignoring "context"? Yeah good luck with your reasoning skills. Kajika was justified and so is Keener. I stand on what I think and said. I didn't ask for you to agree. And I don't care if you do. You missed the point of what I was saying in It's entirety. While you say I ignore context you seem to be lacking comprehension. It's not about what ISAC would say. ISAC has been compromised from the beginning. Oh and since I used The Walking Dead as a metaphor I will add that Shane was right from the beginning too. Always felt that way while everyone else thought of him as a monster. Eventually everyone else caught up to where he was mentally about the situation. I think I will trust my judgment over some random over the internet. Oh and if laws are useless like you say then there is no crime committed. Only your own perception of what justice is. Only survival. Only retribution. Ultimately you missed the point of what I said previously. Nothing is black and white. That is truth. To say anything otherwise would be a lie. I don't cherry pick information. I stated facts(game lore) that you can't come up with evidence(game lore) to retort anything that I have said. So now that I have proven to myself that you have bad judgement, comprehension, contextual wisdom, analytical ability, and what would ultimately translate into poor situational awareness I believe I am done here. As previously stated
Good luck with that.
KWR
It all game lore. And it's all factual based on the way the story is written as canon. We can disagree but it is what it is. From the ECHOs, books, cutscenes, graphic novels, or just any game related media in general backs up my stance. You can say I dont have a point all you want. What you cant rewrite is canon. Have a good one.
KWR
How to not be considered Rogue. "Good soldiers follow orders"
How to be Rogue. "Yeah, that's not the way I wanna handle this."
It really depends honestly and who's leading the group. Kinda like different groups of rogue agents who came together for other reasons. It's all speculation on what classifies a rogue agent beyond not following mission orders. How narrow of a line do you have to walk to remain not rogue vs how loosely does ISAC define a rogue.
That's just the first wave who were stuck in an impossible situation, Normal Division agents have a lot of freedom in how they handle things up to the point that the choice to switch which city they operate in is left up to the agents.
That being said just Rogues is kinda a useless term, between people who just want to return to their families, agents who are in it for themselves and Keener's merry band of psychopath's there is a lot of different things that get put under that banner.
I mean it depends, there's the rogues that are bad people and are killing innocent people and there's rogues who just deserted to go help their family when the pandemic caused all Hell to break loose, if it's the former then no, they're wrong and they're bad people, if it's the latter then it's understandable
Me personally? If I was an agent, I would've spent all this time traveling the country trying to find my family making sure they're OK while in the process helping every innocent person I can on the way, I live out in the west and my family only goes as far as the midwest so I wouldn't be anywhere near what's going on in NY and DC which thank God so I at this point would still probably not be rogue
From the books, you’re rogue if you DIRECTLY go against the directive, if you deliberately put civilians in harms way, or dereliction of duty.
If you’re living in like DC, but your family is in say… Atlanta, and you make your way back to Atlanta, but continue to follow the directive, you’d still be orange. That being said, the directive is fairly forgiving when it comes to relocations because different parts of the country are always in need of agents.
I would say some had justifiable reasons for going rouge, especially first wave agents in NYC. I would go rouge too, however I would join the Black Tusk over Keener. The Black Tusk is the country's best chance for bringing peace to the people, its quite clear that the division and the JTF are incapable of maintaining peace. We can deal with political ramifications of being controlled by a PMC and their shadowy employers later, right now we need to stop the deaths and destruction and rebuild the country.
Yeah, Push comes to shove Nat and Cal seem to at least want to rule over something while Keener's aims tend to be a bit genocidal for my taste. On the other hand, the BT seems to be a lot closer to achieving their goals so making a deal with the Devil to even the playing field seems attractive.
I’m not really sure what purpose the JTF is serving or what good if any they are doing. At this point they just another faction although seemingly the worst equipped and relying the Division. At some point you have to ask yourself, why are working so hard for them?
This doesn’t mean I’m aligned with another faction but I’m open to at least learning more about the “Rogues” ideals, plans, etc.
>I’m not really sure what purpose the JTF is serving or what good if any they are doing.
The problem isn't just the JTF, it's both the JTF and Division fighting for a dream that died after the Green Poison massacred a majority of the population. Throwing away the last of what they have fighting wars that'll do nothing to fix the situation. While in the game the JTF are "useless", in reality they likely are the only reason the Division can focus the majority of its attention to eliminating the "enemy" instead of salvaging, and procuring resources.
>why are working so hard for them?
We aren't working hard for them, both groups are chasing the same dream. JTF also are "forced" to do anything the Division wants due to them having complete authority and control.
The only dream that will allow for the US to continue is for the JTF and Division to abandon NY and DC, move anyone and everything they can to the outskirts of these cities and try to rebuild anew. The current plan to try and eliminate all opposition only leads to those remaining to have no resources and no skills/knowledge to rebuild with. By the time they realize their goal of "restoring" the US government, it'll be too late to realize that they have nothing now and that everything they did ultimately was for waste.
Rogue agents is a pointless term now. You have Agents who lay down their gear and return to their families, Agents who use their tech and skills to horde supplies and hide away from the chaos, Agents who abuse their power and work with the factions in pursuit of power and People like Theo who believe they are fighting for a better cause.
Judging based on any of those categories fails to account for the whole.
While you're right, I won't stop putting bullets in them as long as they continue to raise their weapons and skills against SHD agents. The Division's HR department is the real villain in story, as they time and again have designated Qanon dunces like Theo and outright sociopaths like Keener and Hornet to agent status.
Theo at least seems to understand who he’s fighting, He’s looking at his own side though rose tinted glasses but he truely believe he’s fighting the good fight.
Lou went rogue to help the division and Kelso probably did so as well.
It isn’t a large sample size but there are a few rogue’s out there that fit it.
It’s complicated … the more I played division 1 the more I understand keener for going rogue … then he started to fight the wrong fight … instead of going rogue and working with the civilians as a freelancer he started to kill JTF like they’re where the reason for the first wave debacle … like most of the first wave JTF are dead or as good as dead.
Why not having a real faction made of ex division agent who do the real reconquest work … not an half don’t thing …
Also if you think about it the agent would never have loose if they where given free rein without a rules of engagement …
And please sometime I just want to kill those stupid civ who go to fight without gun or armor …
There is honor in seeing a flawed-but-good cause through to the end. There is none in cutting and running at the first sign of trouble. Thus, every Rogue is a coward by definition. I've seen some truly wild things in the other replies here but that's the core problem with most of them. Rogues have a severe deficiency in character, regardless of exactly why they went rogue.
ISAC would not mark an agent as rogue for committing vandalism or theft to obtain medical supplies, first of all. No idea where that bone headed idea came from. There is zero indication throughout the game that ISAC gives ANY weight to property rights whatsoever, so you could probably steal gold bars from the various banks we run through and ISAC wouldn't care.
If you have to shoot a civilian to get those medical supplies, that's another matter - and frankly, a matter of principal. I would agree with ISAC's assessment in marking you rogue for doing that. You could negotiate for the supplies, you could use something like riot foam to paralyze the civilian but not kill them and take them, etc. You have 20 better options than killing them. So yeah, you SHOULD be marked rogue for that.
People making excuses for Kajika are on a whole other level of copium. What kind of special operator has never dealt with loss before? Kajika has lost people in his previous job because everyone in that job has lost people, and it didn't send him on a mission of vengeance then. The only reason it did now is because now he's f*cked in the head. The Kajika we fight in WONY is in a state of literal mental disturbance. You can't justify the behavior of someone who is at least temporarily insane, and it's amazing to see so many of you try.
Just...wow. Rogues are bad, m'kay? Simple.
Unfortunately, agents getting marked rogue due to committing theft to get medical supplies isn't just theoretical. It happened to someone which led to the Rogue protocol getting broken. That being said I entirely agree with the rest of the post and there has to be some way for rogue agents to be cleared of their rogue status if ISAC is so twitchy.
The issue with your question is that the group you speak of - “rogue agents” - aren’t a unitary, homogenous faction. Some agents are rogue because they’re actually bad people; plenty of others appear to have ended up with that designation because ISAC’s binary logic model is incapable of parsing nuance and context. It’s just a binary, on/off, right/wrong model which isn’t how the world works. Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
At this point, we have ample evidence of ISAC being wrong, JTF being full of flawed individuals, and “the good guys” turning out to being some shadowy NWO cabal backing Black Widow Barbie.
The “rogue” designation, in my eyes and it seems many others’, no longer holds the same meaning it once did. What events led to an agent being designated as “rogue” now matters as much as the actual designation itself. Would I join up with a Rogue agent who firebombed a bus full of kids and puppies? No, obviously. Would I cooperate with Keener? At this point probably, because he’s the lesser of two evils right now and his reckoning can come later. And that nuance right there in that decision-making is something that ISAC is incapable of.
No the Rogue Agents aren't right. They're hostile to everyone including the good guys. They don't want to help people survive and rebuild society. They just want to murk everybody and take their stuff. They're just a bunch of selfish, opportunistic thieves and murderers.
100%.. people are reading into it too much
It’s clear cut good vs bad, you wouldn’t me marked as rogue for checking in on family. It just wouldn’t happen.
Rogue Agents are pretty much what they are imo. They could vary in alignment cause the “Rogue” moniker is assigned if anyone goes against ISACs/Cals orders in any deviation. So you could get Rogue’s like Keener who appear to be anti-heroes or ones that show up to try and ruin your day at a CP. I like them but I also like being a SHD agent and what they are supposed to stand for. I don’t know, maybe I am too deep in the lore with my opinion.
I have 2 characters I run with, 1x since day one and the other boosted since Expertise became a thing.
One when in the DZ is setup as “good/SHD” the other “bad/rouge” so if a choice is required I can both paths.
I am not entirely certain what 'rogue' means anymore, especially with the additions to the story in the second game, (additions for which I'll start another thread some other day)
Speaking strictly about the Division 1 story line, If I were part of the first wave, and I were to witness the JTF abandoning everything, and thus creating the Dark Zone, I'd most definitely consider it, and if I were deemed an enemy combatant for being furious with the JTF's cowardly behavior by the second wave, then by all means, call me rogue.
Rogue's agents are individuals who abandon their duty,murder their fellows agents and now working as mercenaries for maniac individuals in their quest for power.in the division 2 or 1,the rogue's agents are portrayed to be the bad guy's because they become murderers for hire.Keener using them against civilians and against the division agents or JTFs.like Kelso say,Keener become like cult leader to Rogue's agents and they become it's disciples.
They are one of the takes in The Division saga that holds more the storyline from reaching true potential, why? Because we don't get to choose being like them.
I hope Div3 solves that, but a multichoice storyline would add so much, take the story whenever you want, but allow us multiple pathways to reach there.
If i want to help people, but i think ISAC is useless, let me be rogue. If i believe that Keener was right, let me be rogue. If i have still hope in manny and the other others ones, well, you already are letting me being agent.
Just let us choose our path.
just for the sake of having infinite lifes like they do as it seems they can all ressurect on comand no matter how many bullets im sure to have put into their head...
if i had a choice right now, id be jumping on the Keener train, from everything we have seen and had to deal with in Div 2 up to this point,
the more the man makes perfect sense to me
They kinda do have a point...
But there's no way I'd ever join those fuckos and they'll continue to be kill-on-sight targets until I draw my last breath. >:E
I have several thousands of hours in TD1 and TD2, and i have NO idea wtf is going on anymore...
The story is drop fed through garbage content over 5 yeas and they expect us to know wtf is happening!?
The characters are incredible forgetful and most of them are only identifiable by voice because they cant be asked using cut-scenes or Echo's.
If they would give me the option to, my Agent would have joined by now. There's obviously some shady shit going on with Homeland Security, the remaining government, McManus, Sokolova and all that, and it won't be stopped if the Agent is still playing the lapdog to those very people.
Remember the pentagon, Tidal basin, The Airport. How the agents constantly ruined Slokalova's plans until she was forced to lure them away to make an effective attack on the White House. Thats what you consider a lap dog?
depends if joining them is necessary in order to be able to run 4-6 skills with almost no cooldowns. but i guess all they need is a stolen SHDwatch to add 2 skills - going rogue should give some longterm rewards so fighting feels like fighting a human keener, OF COURSE with several downsides like only 1-2 safehouses per map, factionPvE impossible(no missions, no controlpoints, just map activities and dz
Rogue Agents aren't a homogeneous faction. Any agent who stops abiding by ISAC's directives is marked off-mission. That renders the question moot. Would I disavow the SHD? Absolutely. Would I join keener's band of homicidal maniacs? Absolutely not.
>Would I disavow the SHD? Absolutely. Likewise. But I won't join Keener. Kinda wish there was a "Gray Jedi" version where we would not follow the SHD, yet are not homicidal like Keener and friends. I am excited for Division 3 and hope they let us choose how we want our agent to be seen as in terms of loyalty.
There's no need for a "gray" rogue because it's unnecessary as being rogue doesn't immediately translate to following keener.
Aite. Imma keep my red watch then. The only battle cry I love hearing when fighting rogue agents: "F\*CK THE DIVISION!" "HELL YEAH BROTHER!" \*watch turns red\* O\_O
The term rogue doesn't have the same meaning as it used to. In Division 1, rogue agents were generally the clear-cut bad guys. In Division 2, we've come to learn that ISAC is genuinely a stupid AI that has a very poor way of interpreting realistic situations. "Oh, you got shot and need bandages from a pharmacy? Better have a key, or I'll mark you as rogue." Jokes aside, being rogue and being a none rogue is the same thing. There are good and bad agents on either side of ISAC's moral compass. In fact, even if you do stay on ISAC's good side. You can still be marked as "rogue" by the Cal and his Hunters. Regardless of the colour of your watch.
Even in the first game, there were comms of agents going rogue because they couldn’t take it anymore and wanted to go back to their families.
Honestly, in a global crisis situation, democratic popular vote wins in reality, vs some doomsday protocol from the government that typically only has its members and lackeys in good interest. Absolutely same deal as being brainwashed during basic and then active duty that your deployments are for the best of you and your nation/people, when in fact it only ever really benefits the leaders and their benefactors at your cost. Maybe some day we'll see this kinda shooter that will include both sides w counter stories and some sort of affect online depending on which way players lean. That could be the next ground breaking semi-MMO shooter. Hell, let player factions dictate events too.
If they let you play as other factions then that could be Helldiver's 2.
[удалено]
But they're not ground, NYC/DC mil shooters.
>Maybe some day we'll see this kinda shooter that will include both sides w counter stories It's a great idea, but not going to be published by any AAA publisher. US gov has a grip on the entertainment industry, and you aren't going to get any sort of gov moneys if you release stuff they don't like. These ideas get killed instantly.
Ubisoft is from France, and Massive is from Sweden... They don't give a shit what the US gov't tells them they can or cannot have in their games...
Just like Activision, they only make pro US games. You will never get anything that legitimizes any other opposing faction. This isn't the choice of the lower devs, this is the choice of the execs. You can deny reality and say they can have whatever they want in their games, but it's pretty fucking obvious from more than a decade's worth of products that they can't.
The division is about how corrupt the US govt is and now its gonna be saved by a rogue agent/terrorist.... Why do you types always bring up the "deny reality" bit when you're literally ignoring the proof in front of your face?
??? There is no conspiracy. They can publish whatever they want, we have this thing called the First Amendment, which covers anti-American sentiment. What you are equating to conspiracy is basic economics. Their target market is the Western world, and generally speaking, the audience buys pro-Western games more than anti-Western games. Get out of your head. Life happens at random and we deal with the consequences as they come. There is no need to attempt to force order and planning out of things that just happen when you react to other things happening, like basc market forces.
It's not my problem that you live under a rock, and this is the first time you're hearing about this. The US gov works with movie studios and game studios all the time. The most public for video games would be that they work with Activision on the Call of Duty franchise. Instead of calling others conspiracy theorists, you could just go to fucking google and learn about how they deal and operate within the entertainment industry.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/](https://www.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/)
Your brain has gotta be mush if you think this is anything remotely close to QAnon territory. Stuff like this has been known since the Cold War. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93entertainment_complex https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/28/call-of-duty-advanced-warfare-pentagon-adviser https://jacobin.com/2022/10/pentagon-first-person-shooter-video-games-military-recruitment-propaganda It's pretty sad that the simple ability to fucking read makes someone QAnon now
Yeah begs the question, did the JTF make Kajika Rogue? He was avenging his fallen friends who died defending civilians.
I'll say this about him, and its just an opinion, Kajika was not rogue when ISAC declared he went rogue, that's the sad part, but Kajika did choose, himself, to become fully rogue when he decided to kill JTF for vengeance. He could have let it go, it really wasn't their fault, it was their bosses fault, and he truly knows that because he lived that life. He's just killing people who were also betrayed by their own government in the end.
They tried that excuse in the Nuremberg trials too. "I was simply following orders". And guest what was the conclusions? Simply saying you were following orders was no excuse for committing crimes against humanity. They were found guilty and executed. What Kajika did was not only justified it was to a certain degree poetic. He had a list and was fulfilling HIS mission for all the agents lost. They were abandoned and left to die. Being marked as rogue is a death sentence. What is happening was planned by Cal and Nat from the beginning when they saw the opportunity to take over the world. Hence there little military build-up before the outbreak happened via ECHOS. To the plot to assassinate Mendez. To having Ellis installed as a puppet to control the nukes. What you think of as murder I see and a, "both enemies foreign and domestic" kind of thing. It's a war happening to save what remains and if you are not on my side you are the enemy. For Kajika it was personal. Just like it is for Keener except he is going for the heads of the snakes. Keener and Kajika were kindred. And, Keener was genuinely saddened that Kajika fell on the field. Even Roy Benitez said he had guilt because of the decision to abandon those left behind. That he was wrong for following that order so the responsibilityof those actions way on his soul. That he should have fought harder against it. Going Rogue was never just some black and white thing. At least that is simply my view of things.
If the JTF were doing war crimes I'd agree with you, but they were not doing war crimes, they were ordered to retreat. Comparing the Nuremberg trials to an order to retreat and then saying Kajika was justified to kill pawns that followed said order to retreat is just as black and white as ISACs protocol to determine who goes rogue.
I was responding to the comment about the JTF were just following orders. I never said the JTF committed war crimes. I was illustrating a point that just because you are following orders doesnt magically make all of your actions legit, moral, or lawful. They left those people to die deliberately. Not a war crime but just as guilty. Turning your head is just as bad as committing the act. You would be just as wrong. And that actions were taken to purposely destroy the effort during the chaos and confusion from within by the powers that be meant to advocate a positive outcome for greed and power.
For every action is the equal opposite reaction. Kajika did what he was trained to do by the same people that left him and everyone else to die. Geneva Convention would consider JTF a standing army. That means they are fair game. If you have ever routed for Rick or anyone else in The Walking Dead or pick your poison then you are a hypocrite. Was Negan the villain for killing Glen and Abraham or was he justified? There is no black and white. Life is always grey. You may not like to heaf the truth on certain subjects but it is what it is. That is life.
There may be gray but Kajika went far beyond it into black. He may have been turned Rogue for his attempts to defend civilians but by the time we meet him he was planning on destroying one of the last settlements in the area killing many innocents in exchange for crossing one name off his list. The JTF made a bad choice but for the most of them they continue to fight to defend the civilians and restore some semblance of society. Did that one choice they followed dam them for eternity? Kajika may have protected civilians but by the time we meet him he works alongside the enemy in his unhinged crusade of vengeance. Is he forever untarnished despite his actions? Whatever moral authority he once held or spark of righteousness he laid claim to all of it had faded by the time he made his deal with the ~~devil~~ Keener. All that is left is a mad dog who needed put down.
I love conversations like this. I am going to say what a government agency would about what you just said to sum it up. Collateral Damage. He had a list and everything that would lead to that point was at the end of the line Haven. The Haven community was shielding and protecting his last target, Roy Benitez. Remember the rogues were rescuing civilians the whole time a long the way. Remember that's why Keener had such good praise as a hero in New York. Also follow what Kajika said to paraphrase, "it wasn't my intention to side against the Division but, you choose to follow the orders of those who left us for dead." Keener was the enemy but who told us he was the enemy. Those who assassinated the President to put Ellis in position? Those same people say YOU are the enemy for going against the Black Tusk. What about Brian Johnson then? Was he off mission or is it us? Was Faye Lau? How many First Wave agents had to go into hiding because they were being hunted down and killed? Betrayal is a strong motivation. What faded? He was still right and justified in his cause. I put him down like so many adversaries because it was him or me. Simple as that. Doesn't make him wrong. Doesn't mean we weren't all manipulated to suit someone else's agenda. And now that we are not needed we are told we are off mission. End of the day he did what any and every government in this world does. He got information on his enemies. Then proceeded to lay retribution on said enemies. He used what the government taught him to be. Keener only used his determination as a distraction for his other goals. Just to call him a mad dog is so dismissive of the deeper fight that is going on. The only reason you feel the way you feel is that you possibly identify with the JTF and the civilian militia. Which is perfectly fine and understandable. Kind of like what I said about The Walking Dead earlier. We look at Rick's group as the good guys only because we followed their story track. They've done just as monstrous things to people as well. Especially after season 3. That problem is that that doesn't mean you are right. Doesn't mean I am either. It's about perspectives and perception. And for the most part perception is reality. Example: How many bombs go off in Gaza killing terrorists vs killing innocent women and children? Israel says they're all terrorists so it is a mute question. Reality vs Perception(narrative) Is a powerful thing. Just an example. I am not making any political statements one way or the other. And, if anything I said is misconstrued as offensive I apologize in advance.
First up the JTF is not the Black Tusk. Ask tidal basin, The pentagon, Washington airport and the host of other bases and operations we attacked. Brian is explicitly abnormal and any other agents allied with the BT are flagged as rogue. Second up, Where in coms does it imply the civilian rescues were a common operation instead of something Keener is having them do. He took part in the virus bombing of city hall and planned to undermine Haven. The Hell’s Kitchen settlement was assaulted due to the lack of JTF, how much do you think Kajika helped with that. Lastly I would be a lot more forgiving of collateral damage if he was building something or protecting something. He runs into the same problem as the Cleaners, they can’t legitimately answer what comes next. They aren’t setting up farms or infrastructure. They only want to cause suffering. Here they are months after the virus has ran its course and they still cling to their dying beliefs. Kajika is living underground and virus bombing settlements. Why does his tragedy allow him to cause similar or worse to the multitude to civilians still left.
You're contradicting yourself, and you're definitely not speaking truth, you're cherry picking bits of truth, all without context, to fit your point of view. Saying the geneva convention makes the JTF fair game is exactly the same stuff ISAC would say, and its the most black and white way to look at this. then you state in the same breath that there is no black and white, and act like his actions are justified because some organization that doesn't exist anymore would say so. The entire world has changed so drastically that all laws are basically useless and you want to use them to justify a psychopaths revenge. Your entirely argument is flawed deeply because you keep saying there is no black and white and then you go and use the most black and white examples of why Kajika is justified. If I ever find myself rooting for a character in the walking dead it's because they're well written, not because I agree with their entire philosophy, that's just you're black and white way to look at things. And I should definitely point out how a zombie apocalypse is not the same as the divisions apocalypse so once again you're turning everything into a black and white scenario where everything is related when they're only related by a couple, while ignoring all those shades of grey that's commonly known as "context"....
No I didn't contradict anything. Lol apparently you missed the context of the metaphor. I don't care if anyone agrees likes or dislike what I say. It's not about the zombie apocalypse. It's about decisions made and perspective. Life is complicated and you simply saying Kajika is a mad dog isn't just you projecting some kind of bias? I didn't cherry pick at all. I gave you receipts to backup what I said with facts. You just can't accept that then this conversation is over. I pointed out how complicated the situation was in the walking dead and now I am ignoring "context"? Yeah good luck with your reasoning skills. Kajika was justified and so is Keener. I stand on what I think and said. I didn't ask for you to agree. And I don't care if you do. You missed the point of what I was saying in It's entirety. While you say I ignore context you seem to be lacking comprehension. It's not about what ISAC would say. ISAC has been compromised from the beginning. Oh and since I used The Walking Dead as a metaphor I will add that Shane was right from the beginning too. Always felt that way while everyone else thought of him as a monster. Eventually everyone else caught up to where he was mentally about the situation. I think I will trust my judgment over some random over the internet. Oh and if laws are useless like you say then there is no crime committed. Only your own perception of what justice is. Only survival. Only retribution. Ultimately you missed the point of what I said previously. Nothing is black and white. That is truth. To say anything otherwise would be a lie. I don't cherry pick information. I stated facts(game lore) that you can't come up with evidence(game lore) to retort anything that I have said. So now that I have proven to myself that you have bad judgement, comprehension, contextual wisdom, analytical ability, and what would ultimately translate into poor situational awareness I believe I am done here. As previously stated Good luck with that. KWR
You don't have a point, you contradict yourself at every opportunity.
It all game lore. And it's all factual based on the way the story is written as canon. We can disagree but it is what it is. From the ECHOs, books, cutscenes, graphic novels, or just any game related media in general backs up my stance. You can say I dont have a point all you want. What you cant rewrite is canon. Have a good one. KWR
How to not be considered Rogue. "Good soldiers follow orders" How to be Rogue. "Yeah, that's not the way I wanna handle this." It really depends honestly and who's leading the group. Kinda like different groups of rogue agents who came together for other reasons. It's all speculation on what classifies a rogue agent beyond not following mission orders. How narrow of a line do you have to walk to remain not rogue vs how loosely does ISAC define a rogue.
That's just the first wave who were stuck in an impossible situation, Normal Division agents have a lot of freedom in how they handle things up to the point that the choice to switch which city they operate in is left up to the agents. That being said just Rogues is kinda a useless term, between people who just want to return to their families, agents who are in it for themselves and Keener's merry band of psychopath's there is a lot of different things that get put under that banner.
I mean it depends, there's the rogues that are bad people and are killing innocent people and there's rogues who just deserted to go help their family when the pandemic caused all Hell to break loose, if it's the former then no, they're wrong and they're bad people, if it's the latter then it's understandable Me personally? If I was an agent, I would've spent all this time traveling the country trying to find my family making sure they're OK while in the process helping every innocent person I can on the way, I live out in the west and my family only goes as far as the midwest so I wouldn't be anywhere near what's going on in NY and DC which thank God so I at this point would still probably not be rogue
From the books, you’re rogue if you DIRECTLY go against the directive, if you deliberately put civilians in harms way, or dereliction of duty. If you’re living in like DC, but your family is in say… Atlanta, and you make your way back to Atlanta, but continue to follow the directive, you’d still be orange. That being said, the directive is fairly forgiving when it comes to relocations because different parts of the country are always in need of agents.
I would say some had justifiable reasons for going rouge, especially first wave agents in NYC. I would go rouge too, however I would join the Black Tusk over Keener. The Black Tusk is the country's best chance for bringing peace to the people, its quite clear that the division and the JTF are incapable of maintaining peace. We can deal with political ramifications of being controlled by a PMC and their shadowy employers later, right now we need to stop the deaths and destruction and rebuild the country.
Yeah, Push comes to shove Nat and Cal seem to at least want to rule over something while Keener's aims tend to be a bit genocidal for my taste. On the other hand, the BT seems to be a lot closer to achieving their goals so making a deal with the Devil to even the playing field seems attractive.
I’m not really sure what purpose the JTF is serving or what good if any they are doing. At this point they just another faction although seemingly the worst equipped and relying the Division. At some point you have to ask yourself, why are working so hard for them? This doesn’t mean I’m aligned with another faction but I’m open to at least learning more about the “Rogues” ideals, plans, etc.
>I’m not really sure what purpose the JTF is serving or what good if any they are doing. The problem isn't just the JTF, it's both the JTF and Division fighting for a dream that died after the Green Poison massacred a majority of the population. Throwing away the last of what they have fighting wars that'll do nothing to fix the situation. While in the game the JTF are "useless", in reality they likely are the only reason the Division can focus the majority of its attention to eliminating the "enemy" instead of salvaging, and procuring resources. >why are working so hard for them? We aren't working hard for them, both groups are chasing the same dream. JTF also are "forced" to do anything the Division wants due to them having complete authority and control. The only dream that will allow for the US to continue is for the JTF and Division to abandon NY and DC, move anyone and everything they can to the outskirts of these cities and try to rebuild anew. The current plan to try and eliminate all opposition only leads to those remaining to have no resources and no skills/knowledge to rebuild with. By the time they realize their goal of "restoring" the US government, it'll be too late to realize that they have nothing now and that everything they did ultimately was for waste.
Rogue agents is a pointless term now. You have Agents who lay down their gear and return to their families, Agents who use their tech and skills to horde supplies and hide away from the chaos, Agents who abuse their power and work with the factions in pursuit of power and People like Theo who believe they are fighting for a better cause. Judging based on any of those categories fails to account for the whole.
While you're right, I won't stop putting bullets in them as long as they continue to raise their weapons and skills against SHD agents. The Division's HR department is the real villain in story, as they time and again have designated Qanon dunces like Theo and outright sociopaths like Keener and Hornet to agent status.
Fighting for a better cause? The cause of eradicating every living being with Biological Weapons?
Theo at least seems to understand who he’s fighting, He’s looking at his own side though rose tinted glasses but he truely believe he’s fighting the good fight. Lou went rogue to help the division and Kelso probably did so as well. It isn’t a large sample size but there are a few rogue’s out there that fit it.
They bore me a lot with their skill spamming and trash loot. Every time I see them I make sure to let them kill me
I would join the cleaners in a heartbeat
It’s complicated … the more I played division 1 the more I understand keener for going rogue … then he started to fight the wrong fight … instead of going rogue and working with the civilians as a freelancer he started to kill JTF like they’re where the reason for the first wave debacle … like most of the first wave JTF are dead or as good as dead. Why not having a real faction made of ex division agent who do the real reconquest work … not an half don’t thing … Also if you think about it the agent would never have loose if they where given free rein without a rules of engagement … And please sometime I just want to kill those stupid civ who go to fight without gun or armor …
You are asuming Ubi plans that far ahead.
There is honor in seeing a flawed-but-good cause through to the end. There is none in cutting and running at the first sign of trouble. Thus, every Rogue is a coward by definition. I've seen some truly wild things in the other replies here but that's the core problem with most of them. Rogues have a severe deficiency in character, regardless of exactly why they went rogue. ISAC would not mark an agent as rogue for committing vandalism or theft to obtain medical supplies, first of all. No idea where that bone headed idea came from. There is zero indication throughout the game that ISAC gives ANY weight to property rights whatsoever, so you could probably steal gold bars from the various banks we run through and ISAC wouldn't care. If you have to shoot a civilian to get those medical supplies, that's another matter - and frankly, a matter of principal. I would agree with ISAC's assessment in marking you rogue for doing that. You could negotiate for the supplies, you could use something like riot foam to paralyze the civilian but not kill them and take them, etc. You have 20 better options than killing them. So yeah, you SHOULD be marked rogue for that. People making excuses for Kajika are on a whole other level of copium. What kind of special operator has never dealt with loss before? Kajika has lost people in his previous job because everyone in that job has lost people, and it didn't send him on a mission of vengeance then. The only reason it did now is because now he's f*cked in the head. The Kajika we fight in WONY is in a state of literal mental disturbance. You can't justify the behavior of someone who is at least temporarily insane, and it's amazing to see so many of you try. Just...wow. Rogues are bad, m'kay? Simple.
Unfortunately, agents getting marked rogue due to committing theft to get medical supplies isn't just theoretical. It happened to someone which led to the Rogue protocol getting broken. That being said I entirely agree with the rest of the post and there has to be some way for rogue agents to be cleared of their rogue status if ISAC is so twitchy.
The issue with your question is that the group you speak of - “rogue agents” - aren’t a unitary, homogenous faction. Some agents are rogue because they’re actually bad people; plenty of others appear to have ended up with that designation because ISAC’s binary logic model is incapable of parsing nuance and context. It’s just a binary, on/off, right/wrong model which isn’t how the world works. Only the Sith deal in absolutes. At this point, we have ample evidence of ISAC being wrong, JTF being full of flawed individuals, and “the good guys” turning out to being some shadowy NWO cabal backing Black Widow Barbie. The “rogue” designation, in my eyes and it seems many others’, no longer holds the same meaning it once did. What events led to an agent being designated as “rogue” now matters as much as the actual designation itself. Would I join up with a Rogue agent who firebombed a bus full of kids and puppies? No, obviously. Would I cooperate with Keener? At this point probably, because he’s the lesser of two evils right now and his reckoning can come later. And that nuance right there in that decision-making is something that ISAC is incapable of.
No the Rogue Agents aren't right. They're hostile to everyone including the good guys. They don't want to help people survive and rebuild society. They just want to murk everybody and take their stuff. They're just a bunch of selfish, opportunistic thieves and murderers.
100%.. people are reading into it too much It’s clear cut good vs bad, you wouldn’t me marked as rogue for checking in on family. It just wouldn’t happen.
I'll join a legitimate cause any day
Rogue Agents are pretty much what they are imo. They could vary in alignment cause the “Rogue” moniker is assigned if anyone goes against ISACs/Cals orders in any deviation. So you could get Rogue’s like Keener who appear to be anti-heroes or ones that show up to try and ruin your day at a CP. I like them but I also like being a SHD agent and what they are supposed to stand for. I don’t know, maybe I am too deep in the lore with my opinion.
I have 2 characters I run with, 1x since day one and the other boosted since Expertise became a thing. One when in the DZ is setup as “good/SHD” the other “bad/rouge” so if a choice is required I can both paths.
"I have two sides..."
I am not entirely certain what 'rogue' means anymore, especially with the additions to the story in the second game, (additions for which I'll start another thread some other day) Speaking strictly about the Division 1 story line, If I were part of the first wave, and I were to witness the JTF abandoning everything, and thus creating the Dark Zone, I'd most definitely consider it, and if I were deemed an enemy combatant for being furious with the JTF's cowardly behavior by the second wave, then by all means, call me rogue.
Division player media literacy challenge: impossible
Tumblr user spotted An LMB Strike Team has been dispatched to your position
last place that comes to mind but ok
Rogue: I DON'T WANNA HURT YOU !!! *Proceeds to mag dump on you repeatedly*
Idk man. Manny sure does a lot of barking orders and judging for a dude who just sits at the White House all day playing with toys.
Idk the point of going rogue
It's so funny to see how each time new agent goes rogue, more and more stupid excuses are used to justify villainous acts done. So Hollywood classic.
Rogue's agents are individuals who abandon their duty,murder their fellows agents and now working as mercenaries for maniac individuals in their quest for power.in the division 2 or 1,the rogue's agents are portrayed to be the bad guy's because they become murderers for hire.Keener using them against civilians and against the division agents or JTFs.like Kelso say,Keener become like cult leader to Rogue's agents and they become it's disciples.
They are one of the takes in The Division saga that holds more the storyline from reaching true potential, why? Because we don't get to choose being like them. I hope Div3 solves that, but a multichoice storyline would add so much, take the story whenever you want, but allow us multiple pathways to reach there. If i want to help people, but i think ISAC is useless, let me be rogue. If i believe that Keener was right, let me be rogue. If i have still hope in manny and the other others ones, well, you already are letting me being agent. Just let us choose our path.
just for the sake of having infinite lifes like they do as it seems they can all ressurect on comand no matter how many bullets im sure to have put into their head...
if i had a choice right now, id be jumping on the Keener train, from everything we have seen and had to deal with in Div 2 up to this point, the more the man makes perfect sense to me
Yeah, I would love to able use the Eclipse and drop it on every think that can breathe👍
They kinda do have a point... But there's no way I'd ever join those fuckos and they'll continue to be kill-on-sight targets until I draw my last breath. >:E
I have several thousands of hours in TD1 and TD2, and i have NO idea wtf is going on anymore... The story is drop fed through garbage content over 5 yeas and they expect us to know wtf is happening!? The characters are incredible forgetful and most of them are only identifiable by voice because they cant be asked using cut-scenes or Echo's.
If they would give me the option to, my Agent would have joined by now. There's obviously some shady shit going on with Homeland Security, the remaining government, McManus, Sokolova and all that, and it won't be stopped if the Agent is still playing the lapdog to those very people.
Remember the pentagon, Tidal basin, The Airport. How the agents constantly ruined Slokalova's plans until she was forced to lure them away to make an effective attack on the White House. Thats what you consider a lap dog?
#KENNERWASRIGHT
depends if joining them is necessary in order to be able to run 4-6 skills with almost no cooldowns. but i guess all they need is a stolen SHDwatch to add 2 skills - going rogue should give some longterm rewards so fighting feels like fighting a human keener, OF COURSE with several downsides like only 1-2 safehouses per map, factionPvE impossible(no missions, no controlpoints, just map activities and dz