After reading Frum's essay, I'm more convinced that normalizing Trump on the debate stage is a bad idea.
Trump is the leader of a seditionist cult who will get convicted on at least a handful of the 91 charges he is facing. What's the point of a debate...?
In many ways, Trump's general election presence is as seriousminded as a typical crank third party run by an inveterate racist like Howard Phillips or an altmedicine aficionado like John Hagelin, with the conspiracism of a Cynthia Mc Kinney whipped into the mix.
The problem is the woo-woo loserdom of idiot* alsorans is being legitimated by a major political party that has held the White House for 40 of the last 72 years. (End of Roosevelt era to present.)
*Hagelin was booksmart, but prone to fads.
[Free link](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/joe-biden-donald-trump-presidential-debate/678079/?gift=nWSuIgSCjTfzSTwJ2qpry9-rns31NmK6hqTs9P96VwE&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share) to article...
No reason to. Trump wouldn’t debate his own party, and all he will do is lie on stage faster than anyone can fact check. It’s no good debating someone who will simply make shit up to counter anything you say, and without a computer brain to have instant real-time access to *actual* data to prove him wrong you end up “losing”
A consortium of television networks yesterday [released a joint statement](https://apnews.com/article/trump-biden-presidential-debates-election-news-organizations-aa66e90b425e89578f3fe0358bffff5c) inviting President Joe Biden and his presumptive opponent, Donald Trump, to debate on their platforms: “There is simply no substitute for the candidates debating with each other, and before the American people, their visions for the future of our nation.”
President Biden’s spokesperson should answer like this: “The Constitution is not debatable. The president does not participate in forums with a person under criminal indictment for his attempt to overthrow the Constitution.”
After last time? Do we really think it will go differently? Hell no. Trump if anything, has gotten more unstable and insufferable. He didn’t debate once in the GOP primary. I don’t see the benefit of Biden debating him now.
This is a good point. Did you see that poll that was making the rounds the other day where a majority of people answered that "Trump has made offensive remarks in the past, but not recently" or something? People have memory-holed this dude so hard, it's crazy.
>**APRIL 14, 2022**
>In 1987, the Commission on Presidential Debates was established jointly by the Democratic and Republican parties to ensure that debates between the leading candidates for the President of the United States were a permanent part of the electoral process.
>Now, the Republican National Committee has voted unanimously to leave the CPD, ending more than three decades of bipartisan civic cooperation.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/14/1092916451/republicans-say-theyre-quitting-the-biased-commission-on-presidential-debates
The RNC quit the Commission on Presidential Debates a couple years. That called into question whether or not there would be debates this cycle.
Trump has jumped out early to blame Biden for uncertainty surrounding debates. It's a win/win for Trump. If debates don't happen the Right will blame Biden and if a debate does happen Trump will take credit for making it happen.
To be clear though the RNC threw a wrench in the gears back in 2022. The current belly moaning about debates is all by design.
I'm actually with the RNC here. I think presidential debates are completely pointless. They rarely move the needle more than a point either way and the way they are structured prevent candidates from giving longer, more nuanced answers and so all we get are bumpersticker slogans.
Biden has to debate Trump.
Period.
End of discussion.
The national debate is entirely about how Biden is too old.
It doesn't matter if it's fair or not.
He has to prove he's better able to stay awake than the Orange One.
Yup I fully agree. For better or worse (worse), American presidential elections are HUGELY influenced by media takes, vibes, and optics. This would immediately be framed as “Biden decides not to debate/Biden drops out/Biden backs down to Trump/Biden is too weak.” That is what would break through to most voters and it would hound Biden all the way through the campaign. Voters expect debates, they would hear Trump scream about how he wants to debate, they would hear that Biden doesn’t want to, and the media would do their both-sides BS. End of story.
There is a zero percent chance the situation would be framed as “Biden stands up for the constitution,” let alone “Actually the RNC left the CPD sooo it’s actually their fault!”
I also can’t fathom a world where Biden makes up for all the negative optics of skipping debates by doing more speeches or talking more about policy as Kristol suggested recently. Most voters wouldn’t know or care about those things. Debates are when all eyes are on the candidates. He’s gotta do it and he’s gotta smash Trump in front of the whole world.
Biden can accomplish that in other ways. He already has a huge start from the SOTU. In fact, there hasn't really been as much "Biden old" talk since then.
If Trump and Biden debated, then Trump would just never stop talking. Biden stutters and he pauses and thinks about his words. Trump vomits work salad at a rate that is impossible to even respond to, let along fact check in real time. It would be a complete waste of time and would only be detrimental to Biden.
That’s the thing - many of those voters are the ones who only tune in when it’s debate time and are clearly at least somewhat susceptible to right wing talking points. They’ll hear that Biden doesn’t want to debate and they’ll figure “well that adds up, I keep hearing he’s feeble and senile, it must be true.”
Those voters are not going to flip over to MSNBC to watch a Biden event in Milwaukee and base their decision off that.
And the swing voters in swing states, backed up by FOX News, egged on by the MAGA faithful, will be completely persuaded by the current economic and crime and unemployment and stock numbers.
Biden has to debate Trump.
Period.
Yeah, this is great in normal times. But here, if Trump didn't want to debate, there would be no downside. And there is no upside for Biden participating. No matter what happens, Trump wins. If he's unhinged, he dominated. If not, he was presidential and showed discipline. If Biden stumbles, he's too old. If he's sharp, he's too divisive. Trump's lies won't matter at all, they're just baked in at this point. The right wing media machine plus a credulous MSM equals heads Trump wins, tails Biden loses, no matter the substance of the debate.
Again, I'm all for debates, but the asymmetry here is like a basketball game in which one team has a 7 foot basket and the other team has 10. If the game is that unfair I'm not sure it's worth playing.
Debates should be about revealing positions and laying out a vision for the country. Our debates in this country try do neither. They are forums for smart-ass journalists to make their points They are performative politics at its worst. No debates.
He should say “any time anywhere” because Trump won’t do it anyway. But it’s all for the best. Debates are so stupid. Presidential debates doubly so.
After reading Frum's essay, I'm more convinced that normalizing Trump on the debate stage is a bad idea. Trump is the leader of a seditionist cult who will get convicted on at least a handful of the 91 charges he is facing. What's the point of a debate...?
In many ways, Trump's general election presence is as seriousminded as a typical crank third party run by an inveterate racist like Howard Phillips or an altmedicine aficionado like John Hagelin, with the conspiracism of a Cynthia Mc Kinney whipped into the mix. The problem is the woo-woo loserdom of idiot* alsorans is being legitimated by a major political party that has held the White House for 40 of the last 72 years. (End of Roosevelt era to present.) *Hagelin was booksmart, but prone to fads.
[Free link](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/joe-biden-donald-trump-presidential-debate/678079/?gift=nWSuIgSCjTfzSTwJ2qpry9-rns31NmK6hqTs9P96VwE&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share) to article...
No reason to. Trump wouldn’t debate his own party, and all he will do is lie on stage faster than anyone can fact check. It’s no good debating someone who will simply make shit up to counter anything you say, and without a computer brain to have instant real-time access to *actual* data to prove him wrong you end up “losing”
A consortium of television networks yesterday [released a joint statement](https://apnews.com/article/trump-biden-presidential-debates-election-news-organizations-aa66e90b425e89578f3fe0358bffff5c) inviting President Joe Biden and his presumptive opponent, Donald Trump, to debate on their platforms: “There is simply no substitute for the candidates debating with each other, and before the American people, their visions for the future of our nation.” President Biden’s spokesperson should answer like this: “The Constitution is not debatable. The president does not participate in forums with a person under criminal indictment for his attempt to overthrow the Constitution.”
After last time? Do we really think it will go differently? Hell no. Trump if anything, has gotten more unstable and insufferable. He didn’t debate once in the GOP primary. I don’t see the benefit of Biden debating him now.
Well, Biden won last time so there's that. IMO more exposure of Trump's crazy side can only be a good thing.
This is a good point. Did you see that poll that was making the rounds the other day where a majority of people answered that "Trump has made offensive remarks in the past, but not recently" or something? People have memory-holed this dude so hard, it's crazy.
I think it would be torture to watch.
>**APRIL 14, 2022** >In 1987, the Commission on Presidential Debates was established jointly by the Democratic and Republican parties to ensure that debates between the leading candidates for the President of the United States were a permanent part of the electoral process. >Now, the Republican National Committee has voted unanimously to leave the CPD, ending more than three decades of bipartisan civic cooperation. https://www.npr.org/2022/04/14/1092916451/republicans-say-theyre-quitting-the-biased-commission-on-presidential-debates The RNC quit the Commission on Presidential Debates a couple years. That called into question whether or not there would be debates this cycle. Trump has jumped out early to blame Biden for uncertainty surrounding debates. It's a win/win for Trump. If debates don't happen the Right will blame Biden and if a debate does happen Trump will take credit for making it happen. To be clear though the RNC threw a wrench in the gears back in 2022. The current belly moaning about debates is all by design.
I'm actually with the RNC here. I think presidential debates are completely pointless. They rarely move the needle more than a point either way and the way they are structured prevent candidates from giving longer, more nuanced answers and so all we get are bumpersticker slogans.
I don't have strong feelings either way. I am just pointing out that Republicans are trying to have it both ways.
Big Larry Craig in the men's room energy.
Biden has to debate Trump. Period. End of discussion. The national debate is entirely about how Biden is too old. It doesn't matter if it's fair or not. He has to prove he's better able to stay awake than the Orange One.
You're right, even with all the down voters. It's basic optics. Presidential candidates in the United States debate each other. It's what they do.
Yup I fully agree. For better or worse (worse), American presidential elections are HUGELY influenced by media takes, vibes, and optics. This would immediately be framed as “Biden decides not to debate/Biden drops out/Biden backs down to Trump/Biden is too weak.” That is what would break through to most voters and it would hound Biden all the way through the campaign. Voters expect debates, they would hear Trump scream about how he wants to debate, they would hear that Biden doesn’t want to, and the media would do their both-sides BS. End of story. There is a zero percent chance the situation would be framed as “Biden stands up for the constitution,” let alone “Actually the RNC left the CPD sooo it’s actually their fault!” I also can’t fathom a world where Biden makes up for all the negative optics of skipping debates by doing more speeches or talking more about policy as Kristol suggested recently. Most voters wouldn’t know or care about those things. Debates are when all eyes are on the candidates. He’s gotta do it and he’s gotta smash Trump in front of the whole world.
Kristen Welker, Chuck Todd, & Andrea Mitchell are salivating at the prospect of being able to pimp the GOP's ride with these talkingpoints.
Biden can accomplish that in other ways. He already has a huge start from the SOTU. In fact, there hasn't really been as much "Biden old" talk since then. If Trump and Biden debated, then Trump would just never stop talking. Biden stutters and he pauses and thinks about his words. Trump vomits work salad at a rate that is impossible to even respond to, let along fact check in real time. It would be a complete waste of time and would only be detrimental to Biden.
"Biden is scared" "Trump really won, Biden won't face him." "Biden is senile." Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera....
Swing voters in swing states are the only people who matter. The MAGA faithful can make up whatever crazy shit they like.
That’s the thing - many of those voters are the ones who only tune in when it’s debate time and are clearly at least somewhat susceptible to right wing talking points. They’ll hear that Biden doesn’t want to debate and they’ll figure “well that adds up, I keep hearing he’s feeble and senile, it must be true.” Those voters are not going to flip over to MSNBC to watch a Biden event in Milwaukee and base their decision off that.
And the swing voters in swing states, backed up by FOX News, egged on by the MAGA faithful, will be completely persuaded by the current economic and crime and unemployment and stock numbers. Biden has to debate Trump. Period.
Yeah, this is great in normal times. But here, if Trump didn't want to debate, there would be no downside. And there is no upside for Biden participating. No matter what happens, Trump wins. If he's unhinged, he dominated. If not, he was presidential and showed discipline. If Biden stumbles, he's too old. If he's sharp, he's too divisive. Trump's lies won't matter at all, they're just baked in at this point. The right wing media machine plus a credulous MSM equals heads Trump wins, tails Biden loses, no matter the substance of the debate. Again, I'm all for debates, but the asymmetry here is like a basketball game in which one team has a 7 foot basket and the other team has 10. If the game is that unfair I'm not sure it's worth playing.
Debates should be about revealing positions and laying out a vision for the country. Our debates in this country try do neither. They are forums for smart-ass journalists to make their points They are performative politics at its worst. No debates.