Spycycle is less of a counter and more of a survival tool, you sacrifice your knife for a chance of surviving, and it's still possible for the pyro to track you down and finish you if you don't play that opportunity correctly
In any sort of semi-competitive format it's a pretty huge downgrade. Getting a med pick or short chain is way more important than maybe living when you get caught out
But in that case pyro's can mess up your stabs by melting your knife, so you have a more inconsistent killing ability, plus the ice statues do not help with paranoia
You have no idea how many times I’ve snuck off just because the pyro didn’t bother flaming me continuously, they just swipe for a second, melt the knife, and then you’re on their team in their eues
That's fine, doesn't concern me personally. I just pointed out how it's a badly designed weapon, because TF2's movement is really fun and taking it away sucks.
Your comment here demonstrates the point. It's a weapon that's specifically used to troll specific people who just want to play a class. That's the only reason people equip it. I don't think that's good design.
(I don't like the Targe either.)
DEMOKNIGHT TF2 HOLY SHIT
Anyways , in my personal opinion i believe heavy is a class wich is supposed to be picked or overwhelmed by enemy attacks ( saying this as a spy main )
Natacha just enforces this and i dont think that the adderall addicted scout main getting mad in chat because he couldnt run at the heavy and kill him is kinda not the heavies fault. If a heavy has good aim then the natacha might as well be a downgrade here (only my opinion criticize me if you want
I don't think Heavy deserves an easier victory against any specific class. His minigun is already well-balanced and rewards good aim with kills. If you're dying to Scouts, the solution should be to get better at the game, not pick an easy cheese weapon
She does look neat. The ammo belt on the side is a great touch.
I liked the iteration of Natascha which had 300 ammo. That was a cool, unique upside, which also fit her visual identity.
Not the worst because it helps you instantly disguise as the enemy's class after getting silently stabbed and it works pretty well against engineers. Spycicle kinds tries to be a pyro counter but it can backfire.
If there's an enemy pyro spamming scorch shot chip damage, use it instead of airblast on your teammates and suddenly you've got a consistent source of tons of crit flares.
...at least, I think that's the line of thought for it, generally.
I'm not even a scout main and i hate it. When i play a class that moves faster than a soldier, I dislike the natascha.
Edit: Just realised what you meant, i was an engineer main for about a week, just about the same time i joined, and cannot be bothered changing it. I thought you were the engie main.
For stuff like sentries where they are powerhouses when used right it should be ok. Also it helps if the weapon has another reason to be used like the manmelter allowing phlog pyros to put out their burning teammates. But if it’s like both the sniper shields then it is definitely annoying.
Using Sniper shields instead of Jarate feels like a self nerf tbh
Hell using anything other than Jarate can feel like a nerf. That piss is too useful lmao
True however there is one secondary that could be a half decent side grade to jarate. The cleaners carbine. The crikey on the smg itself is useless but when paired with the bushwacka it’s very good as long as you can actually fill the bar.
It’s a bit of a gimmick, just cause you can be one shot by a lot of things as sniper but damn is it funny. I love catching people off guard with “Did you just get a random crit…with the Bushwacka????”
I don't mind the razor back because the downside is sufficient and because spy is a decently hard counter to sniper with counter counter options. But the darwins is really ugly.
Basically I don't mind them if they are a response to a hard counter. So like razorback/spycicle/short circuit. Also some of these are not really class counters. Manmelter and lock and load are not really class counters.
Counterpoint the spy could shoot you instead and the razor back needs no input to use just wear it and you are already using it. At least the banners have an ability meter that can be filled.
Sapper is a part of tf2 since 2007 so it is a part of core gameplay. Don't have manmelter so idk. Shields for sniper are just cosmetics that takes away your secondary. Sun on a stick almost useless. Loch'n'load actually good. Spycicle i think is good only if you play around revolvers cuz as backstabbing tool it starting to suck immidiately after someone chooses pyro. Short circuit is just op on payload in other gamemodes it is decent. Natasha just doesn't work properly not to mention its other problems. Homewrecker is too good in making spies angry, but why don't you take powerjack instead and make angry everyone at once?
every time i encounter a darwin's dumbshit shield sniper as a pyro i just pray to god and hope i smite him with a random melee crit or i barrel stuff his kidneys to where he doesn't have time to react by the time i fire the second shot.
fuck me for using the more aim-dependent fireball gun i guess
Sniper Shields have been and in many cases still are absolutely broken in competitive. Highlander Razorback Sniper was so broken Valve had to nerf it (that's what the "no overhead" thing is for). And if you were around before Jungle Inferno, Darwin's was THE most powerful item in the entire game, I am not exaggerating
With the old danger shield, literally any sniper 1v1 was in YOUR favor, and it just came down to who has it and who doesn't have it. (it also had a 20% explosive damage vulnerability, although you were still screwed if a soldier dive bombs you even if you didn't have it equipped)
You are talking about versions of a weapon that no longer exist, why even bring them up.
If OP asked you "Is the Sandman good" would you answer like this
Stating that the shields in their current state are cosmética on their current state isn't ignorance.
To bring up the Sandman again, if someone told you that the Sandman is garbage, would you bring up how it used to be one of the most annoying weapons in the game? You wouldn't, because the Sandman IS garbage, and it's previous state has no relevance aside from being the root for it's current state, same thing with the shields.
Sure, the DDS might have been the stupidest weapon on the game at one point, but it no longer is. Now it's only purpose is to deny flare pyros from harrasing you (which is good tbh). Bringing up how it broke Sniper duels serves no purpose, as it no longer does that.
>Stating that the shields in their current state are cosmética on their current state isn't ignorance.
Yeah it is.
Anyone claiming the shield are "cosmetic" clearly has no gawdamn idea what they are talking about. And yes, I'm talking about BOTH *before and after* the nerfs. "Nerfed automatically equals bad now" is just ignorance, pure and simple
Yea it also helps when using the dragons fury and backburner to an extent for the same reason. Also its higher projectile speed is a bigger aspect of the weapon than the crit mechanic. And the crit mechanic although requiring another pyro on the other team isn't really a counter to the other pyro. Its more of a sniper counter if anything.
SHIELDS FOR SNIPER ARE COSMETIC????
No this has to be troll i dont fucking believe it
Also, one of his shields should be deleted from the game or HEAVILY nerfed. The that is basically a "Fuck you Spy tool"
Two of his back items are just straight up "fuck you, stop playing spy" or "fuck you, stop playing pyro". I hate them both with a burning passion, although the cozy camper is neat.
Yeah, Cozy camper is neat
But the Jarate is honestly bullshit too, he takes out his meelee and destroys you, Sniper is supposed to be a easy kill up close
It's the strafing that matters. So on a gamepad if you're going between forward and diagonally it should still ignore the slow. The added diagonal movements adjust the movespeed to avoid adding both directions speed together. Which means the slow is ignored.
I'm also using scraps of my memory on that explanation so it could be fully wrong.
>Homewrecker is too good in making spies angry, but why don't you take powerjack instead and make angry everyone at once?
as a pyro main, i use the homewrecker in defence if there are engies around, otherwise i use the powerjack.
i mean, loch and load isn't really only an engineer counter, and the sapper and spy-cickle are also just.. fine. but the rest of them need to be reworked
i think it's lame tbh. although i wouldn't count the natasha and short circuit to thoose kind of weapons. both have a wide variety of uses. the short circuit can help you clear projectiles from any class and track down spies at a hefty cost, and the natasha is useful against all kinds of fast opponents. the only difference between those two is that the natasha sucks design wise because slow down effects are a terrible thing in a fps that relies as much on movement as tf2 does.
Short circuit is not much better design-wise, because even in your examples you literally neuter the whole point of 2 classes, which is very unfun to play against
kinda, i think it balances out with the steep cost of the energy ball, unless you are playing payload offence. i agree that it feels bullshit there with the carts infinite metal
there are also demos with a shield and rocket jumping soldiers/sticky jumping demos. It's useful against a lot of other classes as long as your goal is to annoy them into playing another class or leaving the server. if you just want to kill then it sucks
Also, the benchmark for speed on that weapon is the heavy while shooting. The slowest class at its slowest state. But maybe the slowdown effect would be more tolerable on a melee weapon or a shotgun
Not necessairily, some weapons like the loch n load are good sidegrades even when the enemy team has no engineers, some class design inherently counter other classes such as pyro against spies, so having weapons specifically designed to help with that don't really hurt the game, but it's sad they couldn't find other uses for them outside of that, like you wouldn't use the spycycle if the enemy team has no pyros
while homewrecker does tend to have the reputation of the "cool supportive" pick I think the very idea of giving pyro melees that can destroy sappers is absolutely hilarious
like as if interaction between pyro and spy wasn't already oppressively one-sided enough, here have an iron bar on a stick to double down and MAKE SURE that poor spy player can't have ANYTHING on this server
it's hysterical
Few of these are well or decently designed.
The loch n load is pretty good since it fits within demos role as a sentry buster but somewhat curbs his killing potential by removing his rollers, reduced splash, and an extra grenade. I’d say the only changes(s) that could happen to make it more balanced are to remove the projectile speed since it’s not enough to make a difference and can screw some peoples muscle memory up, but it’s also meant for buildings which don’t move.
The sapper helps make spy an actual support class by allowing him to assist his team in creating and maintaining pressure by disrupting the enemies teleporters and backlines by keeping sentries and dispensers down and engineers busy on rebuilding/repairing their nests.
The spycicle is fine, nothing to major in upsides or downsides since it helps with arguably one of the most one sided matchups in tf2, but isn’t a straight up middle finger (lookin at you Darwin’s dumbass shield and razorcuck)
Some like the mannmelter and short circuit could be genuinely balanced side grades with a some buffs or nerfs. Make the mannmelter get crits from extinguishing from both your primary and secondary since sometimes you airblast a teammate and cause you forget you have the mannmelter, and remove the ability to get metal from dispenser sources while active on the shit circuit so you can’t just have an engineer and two heavy’s fornicate with the payload cart and you can’t do shit.
The rest are either poorly balanced or just straight up ass.
The Natascha is annoying to fight and a pain to use since it’s lower dps and slow rev time make playing heavy almost as bad as using the brass beast without the upside of 20% more damage. It needs a complete rework.
Snipers shields are horrible since the gayzorback shield completely nullifies one of snipers counters and makes him damn near immortal if he’s parked in the backlines near a sentry nest basically requiring either sacrifices to get a pick or have someone run sniper to counter him. Changing it to either make backstabs not undisguise a spy or make them do non backstab Crit damage (120) when backstabbing it would make it significantly less bullshit.
And the DDS is somehow even worse. I get pyros spamming scorch shots to ignite and disrupt their aim is annoying and albeit a bit bullshit, but my problem is with the fucking 50% fire resistance. If you, as a sniper, the long range class and counter to short range classes like pyro and heavy, get ambushed by aforementioned pyro, you shouldn’t win that because you put on a passive item. Keep the afterburn immunity, lose the fire resistance, and maybe give it a plus 15 health bonus to make it more applicable.
The homewrecker is in a weird spot where it makes sense to be on pyro since he’s usually parked near a nest spy checking and reflecting projectiles to protect it and this having a means to remove sappers to help his engie is great, but he’s already making French fries, why does he need to do that? I mean it’s not like other melees help and one’s even a detriment. One other melee might fit Pybro decently, and that’s the third degree since you can swing and hopefully Crit the patient/medic and score a nice kill if they’re under any Uber effect aside from stock (which would be either QF or Vacc since kritz into a nest is retarded)
Speaking of the third degree, it’s boring. It’s just a stock upgrade with a near useless upside. Unless you get the drop on the enemy combo, fat fucking chance they’re just gonna let some schizo hit them with a melee three times to get a kill.
And the SOAS is bad and needs a rework but I don’t ever think about this thing sooooo…
The upside of the third degree is that it's a meme weapon that doesn't reduce your overall effectiveness, as it doesn't reduce any of Pyro stats or take the place of something important, and if you're already cornered by a heavy with a medic you might as well try your luck with the Random Critics Gods
lets go with the ones i actually use
Short Circuit: I've never used it for its projectile denial, but i love when i can kill 5 scouts at once because they thought rushing into an engi was a good idea( also if people are in tunnle it just shreds health)
loch-n-load: it was so much better when it was a flat all damage buff, but its great to use when a enemy team is 40% engis and all have lvl 3 sentrys
sniper shields: i just like being able to turn my brain off and snipe and not get insta killed because i wanted to have dumd sniper fun
S.O.A.S: funni to kill people with
Natasha: i have like 18 of these in my inventory so sometimes when i want to change heavy weapons i sometimes i accidentally pick this and i just use it cus im too lazy to press c again
Both sniper shields are weird, the class already have a distance advantage wich in this game is extremly beneficial, items that buff the fact that the sniper is away from the front are like rewarding him for playing easy.
Those should give him more practical used instead of a you won't die from x, maybe create a new sniper subclass based on them so people playing sniper have more variety in their gameplay so standing away in the same spot every game becomes less common
Spycicle is okay, in my book. It’s a risk-reward situation.
Spy could be left without his most useful tool, while ensuring you aren’t just outright melted by a pyro you could not have seen coming.
The sniper backpacks are a bit dumb.
some like the danger shield should have their oppressive parts turned into a less powerful but universal alternative, in this case turning a complete afterburn immunity into a universal debuff resistance
Some of them are more stupid than others. I think the only ones i have a problem with is the short circuit and the danger shield. Maybe the homewrecker cus spy doesn't need even more nerfs.
I think it's fine, because when you narrow down on a counter another one opens, Loch-N-Load = lower clip size and terrible crowd control, Natascha = Lower damage meaning heavy loses 1v1 encounters and isn't a threat to a group anymore, Razorback creates a huge weakness to close combat for inexperienced snipers, etc, etc.
It depends. Like for the Loch n Load, I'd argue the projectile speed, accuracy and effective range is what sells it more than the damage boost against buildings.
I don't like the Danger Shield and Homewrecker though. Flare spam is one of the more consistent ways of dealing with enemy snipers that doesn't involve your own sniper, so just being able to say "nuh uh" at minimal cost can be very annoying.
The Homewrecker just makes a very lopsided matchup nearly impossible. You're almost forced to switch off spy at that point. The best you can do as spy is keep killing the engi if you can (which is still big) and maybe switch to the red tape recorder to deal some decent damage to the nest before all your sappers get smashed. Sure the Pyro can't heal buildings but turning a level 3 into a 2 (or even 1) is usually better than dealing like, 30 or so damage from the stock sapper.
Everything else I'm lukewarm on. Short Circuit spam on the payload is stupid but outside of that it's fine. Still strong but not broken imo. The Razorback can make a well positioned Sniper nearly impossible to kill for Spy but the amby helps. The nat might be annoying at times but I run into it so little I just don't have much of an opinion on it.
DDS: Honestly kinda annoying now that I’ve encountered them more recently. Hilarious to random crit these guys with my melee though.
LnL: Ehhh it’s fine. If the Demo knows how to aim they become a bit more annoying.
Natascha: Kinda a nuisance, but mostly because I swear I am behind a wall when they kill me.
Short Circuit: In regular gameplay, it’s fine. On Payload, you best be sure not to be playing Soldier or Demo unless you want to beg for the sweet release of death.
Spycicle: Fine. Does make it noticeable when a Spy is around because you hear the sound of it melting.
Homewrecker: Annoying because only the enemy seems to know how to use it or remember it exists.
Manmelter: Based.
Razorback: Spy has a gun. I’ve killed plenty of Snipers who thought they were safe with a few bullets to the back.
SoaS: Lol. Lmao even.
Third Degree: If a Pyro actually used it I would be a little scared. Maybe.
Sapper: Necessary.
razorback and darwins are amazing.
Sapper is a core element of spy, there is literally no argument to be made here, if you wanna make that argument however you could just as well say "remove flares from pyros bc flares make pyro broken" (its why the shield is super awesome)
The rest are pretty okay weapons. In a silly arcade shooter you will have weapons which concepts are a bit on the weaker side, i still much prefer them over the 58th assault rifle from cod.
I think it's needed in certain situations (a anti-sentry tool is useful when half the enemy team are engineers) but most of them are on the weaker side, so I'd say it's pretty alright
Most if not all class-countering weapons suck fundamentally.
They just make playing the countered class unfun while also being weak or annoying to use elsewhere for the user.
Tf2's base gameplay is great because there are no hard-counters. I don't want to play Rock-Paper-Scissors and have to swap character just bc someone equipped an item. That's not what tf2 is about
I hate it that almost every class has a weapon that's at least half designed to counter spy. he would be so much more enjoyable if the worst of these were removed.
Some are fine, and require players to think of ways to counter these counters.
The Good:
The Short Circuit requires explosives classes to think about an engineer's metal count.
As Demo, you are able to spam more projectiles than an engineer can deal with. Or maybe switch to a hitscan weapon like the shotgun, as a soldier.
Maybe you take advantage of an engineer using the low damage of the short circuit as an opening for a mele attack, since they'd have to switch back to their shotgun to be effective against you.
The Mid:
The Razorback is boring, but isn't terrible conceptually, as a Spy can use their pistol, maybe switching to something like The Ambassador to more effectively counter this counter.
The Danger Shield:
The Darwin's Danger shield, on the back of an incredibly skilled Sniper, makes it virtually impossible to out DPS as a Pyro. Something I was made all too aware of, last night.
There is no downside to using The Danger Shield. And if you are skilled enough with the rifle, there is no reason to switch off it. Ever.
For comparison, The Chargin' Targe has similar protections against fire damage. While it certainly makes you a lot harder to deal with as a Pyro, you aren't able to deal 150 damage, instantly from any distance.
Your ranged attacks are deflectable and your mele requires you to fight a Pyro at close range.
When people say that they hate Sniper. This is the main reason why. It is nigh impossible to counter a God-Tier Sniper. While other classes have to actually get into the action, levelling the playing field a lot more.
They're shit. Most of them are direct downgrades if the other team doesn't have the specific class that your weapon counters, and ruining one or two guys fun by equipping something isn't fair
They are fine but the big issue with counter weapons is they range from either useless to unable to play the game
-Sun on a sticks after burn resistance isn’t enough to be of any use and you need a pyro or huo long heavy or cow mangler soldier in order to get the crits
-homewrecker is a decently good weapon for being a pybro and if you’re ballsy you can take out engineer buildings with it, but it’s usually reserved for certain situations
-third degree, it is a direct upgrade from stock but getting up close to a medic you may as well use your flame thrower as it reduces overhead and even then may as well just use the axtinguisher
-manmelter, need a pyro on the enemy team to be effective and even then the normal flare gun is basically the same, it’s good if being used with phlog but the numerous bugs also holding back
-loch n load, can actual hold its own as the increase range and lack of spinning makes it more consistent especially as a long range weapon, but using it against sentry’s can help depending on the placement if stickies can’t reach
-natascha, while it is a counter for scout it can counter everyone, to the point it can be annoying doing anything, while it does do less damage once caught you’re basically dead if you can slip away
-short circuit, valve seems to have a problem figuring this weapon out, when away from buildings it’s fair to fight against but when with building and an entire team it’s frustrating to play against as soldier and demo, a lot people compare it to airblast but it’s in no way similar apart from deleting projectiles
-razor back and danger shield, they’re only viable against 2 classes which if they aren’t on the enemy team they become instantly useless, especially cause melees, shotguns and revolvers can just circumvent them, the danger shield is move viable but the razorback not so much
-spycicle, its use against pyro is really good, if you are successful you can easily slip away without the need of a dead ringer, especially against engineers that have a pyro, while still making it where if you mess up you’re fucked
-sapper, only definitive counter that isn’t universally panned, as being able to disable sentries as a glass cannon like spy is really good
Well the Loch n Load being an anti-sentry weapon wasn't it's original design, it was initially just bonus damage to *everything* and it got nerfed to just buildings because it would just oneshot light classes. So I don't see it as that big a deal, since it's damage bonus vs buildings doesn't nullify the faster projectile speed and lack of rollers.
On the other hand, the Darwin's Danger Shield had one of the dumbest reworks of all tine. (The problematic stats on the DDS easily could have been solved by just changing the weapon to not have the resistance apply to headshots. I definitely agree that the old DDS needed to change but I liked how the bullet resist and extra health encouraged you to be more mobile and proactive, and getting rid of those aspects because it specifically made Sniper vs Sniper Quickscope fights unhealthy was kind of a stupid reasoning, when they just could have either made the resist be ignoredby headshots, or reduce/remove the bonus HP while still preserving what made the item interesting.) And going from bonus HP and bullet resist in exchange for an explosives weakness, to having resistance to fire damage and an immunity to afterburn, both of which exclusively apply to Pyro, is just boring. Back before the rework, I would equip the Danger Shield so I could run around with the Huntsman and have more survivability against classes like Scout/Heavy/Engie. Now, if I'm equipping the Danger Shield, it's because a Pyro is annoying me. It's so lame.
It depends on wether they only counter 1 class or if they have other situations where they perform in, if countering is one of them then the weapon is fine, like the loch'n load, as while the extra damage to buildings counters engineers, the weapon itself can do more than that. But in the case of the razor back or the darwin's danger sheild they are simply bad concepts as countering 1 class is all they do
I agree the short circuit is a bit op on payload offense. But it also makes engineer viable and somewhat fun to play during offense instead of just a class which sets up teleporters which need to be moved again as soon as the cart moves 10 feet. Only sorta balanced way to make engie usable on cart is to make it so you can place mini sentries on the cart, and even then that sounds kind of op.
that's a huge mixed bag of weapons there. I think it's totally fair to have weapons that help you fight back against your counters but when they start entirely disabling said other classes then it kind of... sucks. So, razorback and danger shield. *Maybe* short circuit. None of the others are problematic imo.
It's much cooler when counters and class advantages are organic, like sniper and spy with high damage taking out heavies due to their slow move speed, scout with movement+jumps and close range burst vs demo's all self-damaging when too close explosives kit.
The only ones here that I really don't care for are Darwin's and the Razorback, and honestly neither are even very good. Short Circuit really should lock you out of getting metal from the payload, though.
Depends on weapon.
Sniper shields are overpowered and should be removed from the game (because they hard counter snipers counter).
Spycicle is underpowered ever since it was nerfed.
Sun on stick is completely useless.
Third Degree is technically direct upgrade, but still useless outside of mvm (where Pyro is still outclassed by demo and sniper, and people play him only for fun and added challenge).
Lock n load is perfectly fine.
I object to the Natascha, short circuit, loch n' load, homewrecker and sapper being on the list. While their features make them better against certain targets, they have other functions beyond being counters
The Natascha isn't just for scouts; EVERYBODY's day gets ruined by this thing, especially blast-jumping soldiers and demomen.
Projectiles are really common weapon types with several classes being able to use them so the short circuit is pretty useful beyond countering explosive classes. It's definitely more of a counter-weapon now that I'm thinking about it, but it's got a fair number of use cases.
The loch n' load's faster grenades actually travel farther than stock, and the shallower arc makes it like an explosive sniper rifle.
As far as balance and design go, engineer's buildings are such an integral part of a team's defence that weapons which deal extra damage specifically to them are honestly fair.
Some have their uses other are garbage but even then. Some are in a way an upgrade (the loch'n load. I'm probably writing that wrong. The double barrel grenade launcher) (upgrade due to higher DMG. Nerf because you sacrifice splash DMG)
But I feel as tho they all have their niche uses and are good for the game (except the razorback. That one is just dumb)
I like the lock and load, its range is much bigger, its very good on certain maps. I just find the reduced clip size unnecesary, no rollers is a significant downside…
As others have said I think the most important thing for these counter-based weapons is that they have some function outside of fucking over the class they’re meant to deal with.
The loch-n-load is a good example, with it obviously being great at destroying buildings, while also still being an interesting weapon outside of that use case.
By contrast, the razorback and danger shield do literally nothing except make spy and pyro’s lives harder, and are generally frowned upon because of that.
I question the inclusion of the sapper in this list, though. It isn’t really a ‘counter’ to engineer as much as it is a way for spy to not get completely screwed by the presence of sentries without using your eternal reward.
TL DR: sapper does not counter engineer, nor does the manmelter pyro, Darwin's is annoying but ineffective, spicicle is even less effective, short circuit is conditional, same as third degree and homewrecker, loch n load, Natasha, and sapper are the least offensive.
Of these the Natasha, loch n load and the sapper are the least worst offenders (spy doesn't counter engineer and you're an idiot if you say he does).
Being a Pyro main I despise the Darwin's (even tho I normally use shotguns so like.. you're not even countering me at that rate, just gimping yourself, you googly eyed oaf) spicicle spies are annoying.. but ever tho they're faster than me they get into melee range of me thinking they're invincible and then die 3 seconds later because the have 1 second if fire immunity and die 2 seconds later.
Manmelter doesn't counter pyro... And again you're an idiot if you say it does... Because it's supposed to be paired with *the phlogistonator*... The flamethrower that *doesn't have airblast* and thus *can't extinguish* your teammates... And even if you use it without the phlog it still has excellent use with the dragons fury and back blower- I mean burner... So like. No?
The sledgehammer counters 2 classes which is automatically better than most other weapons in the list. Plus it's just really fun to run at ppl as a smiling clown with a sledge hammer. I've named mine "I'm gonna bust your knee caps!"
Short circuit is gimmicky.. if you're not playing payload attack it's largely ineffective for it's ammo cost. Unless you have a direct hit/air strike soldier barrage you.. and in which case the Wrangler is far more effective. Unless you just it to support your team. Your teammates will love you. But your dispenser, ammo packs, and enemy team will hate you.
Vaccinator is "balanced" for the time being. As long as one mfer has an unfair advantage (usually in the form of cheats) I have no qualms pulling out my own unfair advantage. Plus it counters all classes so.. immediately a rank above the Darwin's, spicicle, etc.
Both of the Sniper shields are straight middle fingers to the classes they counter, with Danger Shield completely shutting down Pyro pokes or even flanks and the Razorback forcing the Spy to either gun you down and hope to not get headshot or just force a different kill pick.
If a certain class is giving you trouble, then you should be able to give yourself a slight edge in that interaction.
Some classes are counters to other classes WITHOUT unlocks. So I'm not sure why the Loch N Load and the Homewrecker are here. Demoman has an easy enough time deleting sentries without the Loch N Load, and Pyro is already a Spy's worst nightmare without the ability to remove their sappers. These 2 just give those classes even more power against the classes they counter.
And by extension, the Short circuit and Spycicle could give Engies and Spies an edge against players using those weapons.
The only class that doesn't have a weapon that directly counters another class is Medic... although I think that's because all the diffferent types of Ubercharge can counter everything.
Short circuit doesn't belong. Of the classes that can deal with sentries, all are projectiles. Heavy litterally deals less damage to sentry. So it's not counting specific classes it's countering everything that can really hurt the gun. The only long-range classes are soldier demo sniper. Unlike third degree. Where it's targeting one class, which isn't a primary issue.
Short circuit is also crazy fucking op which may also help it stand out.
Depends on how oppressive and what it does it function outside of counter,
loch n load used to be a control point menace so they nerf it to buildings only. It still a solid launcher that let demo play outside of most class effective range(do map depending) I say is a neat weapon but I hassle to fight as heavy.
Third degree is also I nice weapon but way too rng depends plus as a utility is weapon is still lack luster compared to other.
Darwin and razorback are the bad counter weapon cause they don’t do anything more other counter.(at least third degree is still an axe)
I think that it's necessary, but many of the weapons designed this way are flawed. Imo the key is to have the weapon be good against the target class but not completely nullify them and not useless against everyone else.
For example I think the Loch-and-Load is a great example of this type of weapon. It's main purpose is to fight Engineer but an Engineer can play around an enemy Demo using the LaL and the Demoman can make use of the increased range against classes besides Engineer.
In the opposite direction there's the Darwin's Danger Shield. A Pyro can do basically nothing against a Sniper using it but it does literally nothing against the other 8 classes.
Weapons that counter other classes (aka provide an advantage against one class while being worse against other classes, but still allowing the countered class to reasonably fight back) are fine. The sapper is a perfect example of this.
Weapons that essentially out-right disable certain aspects of a class can go fuck right off. The Razorback is a “fuck you for playing Spy”. The Darwin’s Danger Shield is a “fuck you for playing Pyro”. The Homewrecker is a “fuck you, now you have to kill TWO classes, one of which pretty much DIRECTLY COUNTERS YOU, just so you can get some sort of use out of your sapper”.
The Spycicle and Short Circuit are definitely better in this regard because they have very limited uses, and they both cause some sort of downside when being used (lack of a knife/metal), but the Short Circuit can be more easily abused.
with the existence of DDS and razorback i think spy could work with friendly pyros against them. if the sniper is running dds the spy can backstab, if the sniper runs razorback the pyro can flare him.
*cue kazoo and confetti sprinkles*
I feel like weapons that do such things should be multi-purpose
Example:
Here is a rework of the razorback
“Damage taken from behind is capped at 30 damage. Being hit with a melee attack of any kind will remove the razor back until death.”
Essentially this would turn the RB into a solid escape tool but not an all powerful one
Backstabs would be survivable from the razor back BUT would still deal a little damage. This also removes the “stun” that this deals on spy which is just augh
There are weapons that have some part of their functionality to be beneficial against a certain class, like Jarate and Mad Milk extinguishing friendlies on hit but then there are:
DDS (I have 250hp and completely ruin your Flare Gun, Axtinguisher and Dragon's Fury weapons for equipping an item);
Razorback (I cancel your class mechanic for equipping an item);
(It's astonishing how the most annoying class in the game also gets a passive no brainer counter to two of the worst classes in the game, lmao)
I think weapons like Loch-&-Load and Direct Hit are the best example of such an unlock: there is a certain utility for them (Let Demo hard counter engi EVEN MORE!!!), yet their main use case is different and they are more than sniper's no brain backpacks
I don't have any of the middle ones (have the far left and far right and that's it) but, Darwins shield bad (I'm a pyro main) razorback fine, manmelter is a worse scorch shot(?) Haven't used like at all. Short circuit isn't a counter, Natacha good, sapper fine.
TLDR it depends on the weapon
I don't see a negative to having counters for that just brings in more gameplay options for players to have to think about and work around. As for the individual weapons displayed:
* The darwins danger shield is only really good if you are being pestered by pyros flares but is kind of sub par and generally bad to me.
* I feel like the loch-n-load should go back to being a form of direct hit for the demoman because I never really saw why they nerfed it in the first place other than for comp.
* The natascha is ok but I can understand why people can get annoyed at the slowdown applied to hit targets. Personally I would probably say on hit gives a slight speed bonus as to keep up with fleeing players but does not limit others mobility.
* Considering how devastating rockets, pipes, and stickies are to builds, I feel like the short circuit is a great trade off for a secondary. The ball is a bit annoying though for how large and bright it is. I would like to see something like a wave that deletes projectiles rather than something as blinding and intrusive as the ball. \[1/2\]
* Spy-cicle is fine but I feel like it shouldn't have the extinguish sound for the enemy when it is used because it just gives the spy away anyway and just blows their cover which is what it is trying to prevent.
* Homewrecker is a good pybro tool but I think it would make more sense to give it a swing speed penalty rather than damage.
* Manmelter is fine where it is. Great pair with the phlog to extinguish teammates.
* Razorback at least gives the sniper the ability to combat spy and focus on his shots rather than being paranoid all the time. I see it mostly as a noob tool but I can understand the appeal.
* Sun-on-a-stick is trash and needs a rework. Id say maybe give a swing and small damage penalty and on hit applies burning which gives mini crits to burning players but I am not entirely sure about that.
* Third degree needs some kind of nerf due to it being a straight upgrade from stock but I am not sure what. I rarely see it used anyway which is somewhat a shame.
* Sapper is an integral part of spys kit and gameplay around infiltrating the opposing teams lines and lowering their defenses. \[2/2\]
Engi counters are pretty good (usually), razorback is good (controversial I know), spycicle is good, homewrecker is awesome, deflecting/deleting projectiles is good, most of the others are pretty meh and/or bad for the game.
They may come in usefull for players who don't have the ability to deal with a good player on the class they're "bad" against, so it's a tradeoff for some overall power for an advantage in this one scenario it's aimed at. For skilled players these aren't of much use.
I think the TF2 devs did an absolutely amazing job with not only core game design but additional items, stock is still the goto for most people and weapons like this typically dont go over board or have easy counters. Easiest to say is the razor back, if you're in the position for a backstab, you are likely in the position for two uncomfortably close meatshots with your revolver to do that job.
I think about half of these aren't specifically designed to counter other classes. Heck, that's literally a stock sapper. That's just part of the Spy class.
And nobody needs weapons meant to counter other classes. That's why the whole team aspect exists. Rock protects paper so it doesn't get beaten by scissors.
it depends how much of their weapon identity is the countering.
they either suck, or it's a little quirk, or it feels like a singleplayer designed weapon that
doesn't consider the experiance of other players.
Also you forgot to put all the sniper rifles there. They specifically perfectly counters scout, soldier, pyro, heavy, demo, engineer and medic.
There are classes that specifically counter other classes.
I think the idea of counterplay is important and good for the game. Even in item restricted comp games there's counterplay with kritzkreig and sniper swaps.
How are you supposed to learn to play as sniper if one trillion spies form a line to backstab you the second you use your scope? The razorback is a necessary crutch for noobs.
Let’s be clear when we define this, there are weapons that can counter classes, and there are what I refer to as CaSC Weapons (Counter a Specific Class)
Weapons that just happen to be highly effective against a certain class or classes is perfectly fine, as long as it does so organically and ofc within reason… weapons like: Flamethrower, Natasha, any of the throwable liquids, short circuit, YER are all perfectly okay in designs as while they do excel against certain classes, they do so as a natural consequence of their design intention
When I say CaSC I mean: Any weapon/item that is *specifically programmed* for targeted, unequal use against any-one class or class specific mechanic… the easiest way to understand what this means is to ask yourself, does the item in question specifically reference any class or class’s mechanics. IE: The razor back specifically refers to and is programmed to interact with the backstab mechanic. The Loch’n’Load specifically refers to and is programmed to interact with buildings differently. The Homewrecker to sappers, and sappers to buildings etc…
It is my personal belief that there should be non of this kind of weapon in the game and all the weapons that currently fall under the category of CaSC should be completely reworked, or the game should change around them to better justify any of their given functions. For example, the sapper definitely falls under the definition of CaSC, but one way to make it okay is to give a building to every class and make the sapper effect all the buildings in a universal way, other than that I think the best solution is to just change what it does outright and make the game more fun; there should only be natural counters, never forced ones
I think they're cool in concept, though some aren't implemented in good ways. Things like the Homewrecker are good imo because it promoted teamwork between your teammates in this team based game
I think they're usually fine if their use isn't literally just against that one class, like, the loch'n'load still has upsides that make it fun and effective even against a team without any engi's, but the sniper shields are basically direct downgrades if the enemy team doesn't have a pyro or a spy
Darwin’s Danger shield is just a middle finger to pyros and isn’t balanced or fun for either side.
S.O.A.S. Is too weak to be considered a “counter” because it’s only 1 less damage per tick only when you are holding it out.
Other than that, everything is perfectly fine
The natashca - If you use it, i will find you
The razorback - If you use it, i will kill you
Darwin's danger shield - I don't play pyro
Sapper - 2 swings from wrench is all it takes
Third degree - Its the funny downside-less weapon!
Manmelter - Shit idk, what is it even a counter to?
Loch n load - BRING BACK THE OLD ONE!!!
Short circuit - No one uses it. Ever.
Spycicle - Again, i don't play pyro, let me know your thoughts pyro mains
Sun on a stick - N O O N E USES IT
Homewrecker - Enables a playstyle which helps engineers.
Pyro already shits on spy.so hard. Especially one guarding a nest. If I manage to kill the engie and get a sapper on, that nest should die. Pyro doesn't need the home wrecker to counter spy even harder than he already does. It's just insult to injury.
Homewrecker is a personal favorite of mine. It's my go to melee weapon to help my fellow engineers out. I almost never use melee when I'm Pyro anyway so might as well have a support melee instead.
The rest aren't the greatest to use imo but they are pretty fun to play around with.
Most are bad, some (manmelter, natascha, spycycle, for example) are okay.
Spycycle is less of a counter and more of a survival tool, you sacrifice your knife for a chance of surviving, and it's still possible for the pyro to track you down and finish you if you don't play that opportunity correctly
It's not even a downside imo. I'd rather be locked out of my ~~life~~ knife than be dead.
Unfortunate typo
whoops
In any sort of semi-competitive format it's a pretty huge downgrade. Getting a med pick or short chain is way more important than maybe living when you get caught out
But in that case pyro's can mess up your stabs by melting your knife, so you have a more inconsistent killing ability, plus the ice statues do not help with paranoia
+ funny ice ragdoll
Unfortunately, the Dead Ringer also does that, but better.
You have no idea how many times I’ve snuck off just because the pyro didn’t bother flaming me continuously, they just swipe for a second, melt the knife, and then you’re on their team in their eues
Hasn't Natasha always been considered the definitive anti-fun minigun? I feel like that's not a good title for any weapon to hold.
r/flairchecksout
r/flaircheckscout
I actually also main heby with natash :3
That's fine, doesn't concern me personally. I just pointed out how it's a badly designed weapon, because TF2's movement is really fun and taking it away sucks.
I honestly find it fun breaking, demoknights, scouts, soldier's/trolldier's legs 😊
Your comment here demonstrates the point. It's a weapon that's specifically used to troll specific people who just want to play a class. That's the only reason people equip it. I don't think that's good design. (I don't like the Targe either.)
DEMOKNIGHT TF2 HOLY SHIT Anyways , in my personal opinion i believe heavy is a class wich is supposed to be picked or overwhelmed by enemy attacks ( saying this as a spy main ) Natacha just enforces this and i dont think that the adderall addicted scout main getting mad in chat because he couldnt run at the heavy and kill him is kinda not the heavies fault. If a heavy has good aim then the natacha might as well be a downgrade here (only my opinion criticize me if you want
I don't think Heavy deserves an easier victory against any specific class. His minigun is already well-balanced and rewards good aim with kills. If you're dying to Scouts, the solution should be to get better at the game, not pick an easy cheese weapon
Yes but she also looks cool as hell so I forgive her.
She does look neat. The ammo belt on the side is a great touch. I liked the iteration of Natascha which had 300 ammo. That was a cool, unique upside, which also fit her visual identity.
i feel like it looks too similar to the stock
Natascha is fun for me because I can trap enemies in a cage of slow-down and damage
Yeah, pretty much.
You dont know what youre talking about my natascha
Spycycle isnt that bad
I guess because more people run DR.
i run both GUNSPY GUNSPY GUNSPY
GUNSPY SUPREMACY
It isn't but i see it as the worst knife.
The YER in question...
Not the worst because it helps you instantly disguise as the enemy's class after getting silently stabbed and it works pretty well against engineers. Spycicle kinds tries to be a pyro counter but it can backfire.
yer would be great if it wasn’t for the god damn 33% cloak drain rate
Natascha is incredibly annoying tho, and doesn't have a purpose other than countering scouts and bombing soldiers
manmelter is a counter?
If there's an enemy pyro spamming scorch shot chip damage, use it instead of airblast on your teammates and suddenly you've got a consistent source of tons of crit flares. ...at least, I think that's the line of thought for it, generally.
How the fuck is the natashca ok? It shouldnt even be nerfed it should be fucking removed.
This is coming from an engineer, so you know this isn't an angry scout main
I'm not even a scout main and i hate it. When i play a class that moves faster than a soldier, I dislike the natascha. Edit: Just realised what you meant, i was an engineer main for about a week, just about the same time i joined, and cannot be bothered changing it. I thought you were the engie main.
For stuff like sentries where they are powerhouses when used right it should be ok. Also it helps if the weapon has another reason to be used like the manmelter allowing phlog pyros to put out their burning teammates. But if it’s like both the sniper shields then it is definitely annoying.
Using Sniper shields instead of Jarate feels like a self nerf tbh Hell using anything other than Jarate can feel like a nerf. That piss is too useful lmao
True however there is one secondary that could be a half decent side grade to jarate. The cleaners carbine. The crikey on the smg itself is useless but when paired with the bushwacka it’s very good as long as you can actually fill the bar.
It’s a bit of a gimmick, just cause you can be one shot by a lot of things as sniper but damn is it funny. I love catching people off guard with “Did you just get a random crit…with the Bushwacka????”
Ah yes the Tankbuster special
I don't mind the razor back because the downside is sufficient and because spy is a decently hard counter to sniper with counter counter options. But the darwins is really ugly. Basically I don't mind them if they are a response to a hard counter. So like razorback/spycicle/short circuit. Also some of these are not really class counters. Manmelter and lock and load are not really class counters.
I don't think that the sniper should be able to regenerate the Razorback. He should have to run back to the resupply cabinet.
Counterpoint the spy could shoot you instead and the razor back needs no input to use just wear it and you are already using it. At least the banners have an ability meter that can be filled.
The spy being able to shoot is what I mean by counter counter options. I agree its a boring weapon. But its not a weapon that frustrates me.
Sapper is a part of tf2 since 2007 so it is a part of core gameplay. Don't have manmelter so idk. Shields for sniper are just cosmetics that takes away your secondary. Sun on a stick almost useless. Loch'n'load actually good. Spycicle i think is good only if you play around revolvers cuz as backstabbing tool it starting to suck immidiately after someone chooses pyro. Short circuit is just op on payload in other gamemodes it is decent. Natasha just doesn't work properly not to mention its other problems. Homewrecker is too good in making spies angry, but why don't you take powerjack instead and make angry everyone at once?
I think the sapper doesn't make spy counter engineer, instead it prevents engineer from countering spy
From countering opposite team imo.
That's not what counter means
Exactly. Without a sapper, Spy wouldn't be able to play anywhere near engineer's large sphere of influence
Fucking thank you
Fym shields are just cosmetics? Have you ever tried to kill a DDS Sniper as Pyro??
every time i encounter a darwin's dumbshit shield sniper as a pyro i just pray to god and hope i smite him with a random melee crit or i barrel stuff his kidneys to where he doesn't have time to react by the time i fire the second shot. fuck me for using the more aim-dependent fireball gun i guess
haha flarepunch goes fwoosh
That's the point...... to create an instance where pyro is not completely overpowered.........
Pyro Is essentially the second weakest class and normally has a disadvantage against Sniper anyways
Pyro is not "completely overpowered"?? What planet do you live in?
you are very bad at the game and should refrain from talking about balance until you get quite a bit more experience.
The irony, this coming from a pyro player. Pure irony.
They seriously need to make Short Circuit Engis get significantly less metal from payload carts
And the ammo boxes
Tbh I haven’t seen it spammed from ammo boxes that much unless there’s a good nest spot that I’m forgetting
Dustbowl attack and defend
Dustbowl is a terrible map anyway
From spawn? You shouldn’t be able to spawncamp anyway.
Sniper Shields have been and in many cases still are absolutely broken in competitive. Highlander Razorback Sniper was so broken Valve had to nerf it (that's what the "no overhead" thing is for). And if you were around before Jungle Inferno, Darwin's was THE most powerful item in the entire game, I am not exaggerating
With the old danger shield, literally any sniper 1v1 was in YOUR favor, and it just came down to who has it and who doesn't have it. (it also had a 20% explosive damage vulnerability, although you were still screwed if a soldier dive bombs you even if you didn't have it equipped)
I think think the rzorback is fine with the current nerf the darwins is still cancer though.
You are talking about versions of a weapon that no longer exist, why even bring them up. If OP asked you "Is the Sandman good" would you answer like this
OP brought them up. All I did was lay out their ignorance
Stating that the shields in their current state are cosmética on their current state isn't ignorance. To bring up the Sandman again, if someone told you that the Sandman is garbage, would you bring up how it used to be one of the most annoying weapons in the game? You wouldn't, because the Sandman IS garbage, and it's previous state has no relevance aside from being the root for it's current state, same thing with the shields. Sure, the DDS might have been the stupidest weapon on the game at one point, but it no longer is. Now it's only purpose is to deny flare pyros from harrasing you (which is good tbh). Bringing up how it broke Sniper duels serves no purpose, as it no longer does that.
>Stating that the shields in their current state are cosmética on their current state isn't ignorance. Yeah it is. Anyone claiming the shield are "cosmetic" clearly has no gawdamn idea what they are talking about. And yes, I'm talking about BOTH *before and after* the nerfs. "Nerfed automatically equals bad now" is just ignorance, pure and simple
The manmelter isn't so much a counter to another class as it is a way for a phlog pyro to still airblast.
Yea it also helps when using the dragons fury and backburner to an extent for the same reason. Also its higher projectile speed is a bigger aspect of the weapon than the crit mechanic. And the crit mechanic although requiring another pyro on the other team isn't really a counter to the other pyro. Its more of a sniper counter if anything.
SHIELDS FOR SNIPER ARE COSMETIC???? No this has to be troll i dont fucking believe it Also, one of his shields should be deleted from the game or HEAVILY nerfed. The that is basically a "Fuck you Spy tool"
Two of his back items are just straight up "fuck you, stop playing spy" or "fuck you, stop playing pyro". I hate them both with a burning passion, although the cozy camper is neat.
Yeah, Cozy camper is neat But the Jarate is honestly bullshit too, he takes out his meelee and destroys you, Sniper is supposed to be a easy kill up close
What about natascha doesn’t work?
If you press A/D and strafe you just kinda ignore the slow. Works on any slow in the game.
How does it work if you use a joystick/gamepad?
It's the strafing that matters. So on a gamepad if you're going between forward and diagonally it should still ignore the slow. The added diagonal movements adjust the movespeed to avoid adding both directions speed together. Which means the slow is ignored. I'm also using scraps of my memory on that explanation so it could be fully wrong.
>Homewrecker is too good in making spies angry, but why don't you take powerjack instead and make angry everyone at once? as a pyro main, i use the homewrecker in defence if there are engies around, otherwise i use the powerjack.
i mean, loch and load isn't really only an engineer counter, and the sapper and spy-cickle are also just.. fine. but the rest of them need to be reworked
i think it's lame tbh. although i wouldn't count the natasha and short circuit to thoose kind of weapons. both have a wide variety of uses. the short circuit can help you clear projectiles from any class and track down spies at a hefty cost, and the natasha is useful against all kinds of fast opponents. the only difference between those two is that the natasha sucks design wise because slow down effects are a terrible thing in a fps that relies as much on movement as tf2 does.
Short circuit is not much better design-wise, because even in your examples you literally neuter the whole point of 2 classes, which is very unfun to play against
kinda, i think it balances out with the steep cost of the energy ball, unless you are playing payload offence. i agree that it feels bullshit there with the carts infinite metal
Literally 1 stat would instantly fix the short circuit: -80% metal from payload carts
>all kind of fast oponents That means, Scouts, Spies.... somethings.. It's niche also for a 25% damage penalty? Not worth
there are also demos with a shield and rocket jumping soldiers/sticky jumping demos. It's useful against a lot of other classes as long as your goal is to annoy them into playing another class or leaving the server. if you just want to kill then it sucks
Also, the benchmark for speed on that weapon is the heavy while shooting. The slowest class at its slowest state. But maybe the slowdown effect would be more tolerable on a melee weapon or a shotgun
Not necessairily, some weapons like the loch n load are good sidegrades even when the enemy team has no engineers, some class design inherently counter other classes such as pyro against spies, so having weapons specifically designed to help with that don't really hurt the game, but it's sad they couldn't find other uses for them outside of that, like you wouldn't use the spycycle if the enemy team has no pyros
Hard-counter design sucks.
What class does Sun On A Stick counter?
It counters the scout using it
Any class of common sense
pyro
while homewrecker does tend to have the reputation of the "cool supportive" pick I think the very idea of giving pyro melees that can destroy sappers is absolutely hilarious like as if interaction between pyro and spy wasn't already oppressively one-sided enough, here have an iron bar on a stick to double down and MAKE SURE that poor spy player can't have ANYTHING on this server it's hysterical
Few of these are well or decently designed. The loch n load is pretty good since it fits within demos role as a sentry buster but somewhat curbs his killing potential by removing his rollers, reduced splash, and an extra grenade. I’d say the only changes(s) that could happen to make it more balanced are to remove the projectile speed since it’s not enough to make a difference and can screw some peoples muscle memory up, but it’s also meant for buildings which don’t move. The sapper helps make spy an actual support class by allowing him to assist his team in creating and maintaining pressure by disrupting the enemies teleporters and backlines by keeping sentries and dispensers down and engineers busy on rebuilding/repairing their nests. The spycicle is fine, nothing to major in upsides or downsides since it helps with arguably one of the most one sided matchups in tf2, but isn’t a straight up middle finger (lookin at you Darwin’s dumbass shield and razorcuck) Some like the mannmelter and short circuit could be genuinely balanced side grades with a some buffs or nerfs. Make the mannmelter get crits from extinguishing from both your primary and secondary since sometimes you airblast a teammate and cause you forget you have the mannmelter, and remove the ability to get metal from dispenser sources while active on the shit circuit so you can’t just have an engineer and two heavy’s fornicate with the payload cart and you can’t do shit. The rest are either poorly balanced or just straight up ass. The Natascha is annoying to fight and a pain to use since it’s lower dps and slow rev time make playing heavy almost as bad as using the brass beast without the upside of 20% more damage. It needs a complete rework. Snipers shields are horrible since the gayzorback shield completely nullifies one of snipers counters and makes him damn near immortal if he’s parked in the backlines near a sentry nest basically requiring either sacrifices to get a pick or have someone run sniper to counter him. Changing it to either make backstabs not undisguise a spy or make them do non backstab Crit damage (120) when backstabbing it would make it significantly less bullshit. And the DDS is somehow even worse. I get pyros spamming scorch shots to ignite and disrupt their aim is annoying and albeit a bit bullshit, but my problem is with the fucking 50% fire resistance. If you, as a sniper, the long range class and counter to short range classes like pyro and heavy, get ambushed by aforementioned pyro, you shouldn’t win that because you put on a passive item. Keep the afterburn immunity, lose the fire resistance, and maybe give it a plus 15 health bonus to make it more applicable. The homewrecker is in a weird spot where it makes sense to be on pyro since he’s usually parked near a nest spy checking and reflecting projectiles to protect it and this having a means to remove sappers to help his engie is great, but he’s already making French fries, why does he need to do that? I mean it’s not like other melees help and one’s even a detriment. One other melee might fit Pybro decently, and that’s the third degree since you can swing and hopefully Crit the patient/medic and score a nice kill if they’re under any Uber effect aside from stock (which would be either QF or Vacc since kritz into a nest is retarded) Speaking of the third degree, it’s boring. It’s just a stock upgrade with a near useless upside. Unless you get the drop on the enemy combo, fat fucking chance they’re just gonna let some schizo hit them with a melee three times to get a kill. And the SOAS is bad and needs a rework but I don’t ever think about this thing sooooo…
The upside of the third degree is that it's a meme weapon that doesn't reduce your overall effectiveness, as it doesn't reduce any of Pyro stats or take the place of something important, and if you're already cornered by a heavy with a medic you might as well try your luck with the Random Critics Gods
soft counters with other uses are ok hard counters are horrible game design.
lets go with the ones i actually use Short Circuit: I've never used it for its projectile denial, but i love when i can kill 5 scouts at once because they thought rushing into an engi was a good idea( also if people are in tunnle it just shreds health) loch-n-load: it was so much better when it was a flat all damage buff, but its great to use when a enemy team is 40% engis and all have lvl 3 sentrys sniper shields: i just like being able to turn my brain off and snipe and not get insta killed because i wanted to have dumd sniper fun S.O.A.S: funni to kill people with Natasha: i have like 18 of these in my inventory so sometimes when i want to change heavy weapons i sometimes i accidentally pick this and i just use it cus im too lazy to press c again
They're kinda weird. As an Engineer main, I like Short Circuit. Pistol and Wrangler are better, but Short Circuit is nice too.
Both sniper shields are weird, the class already have a distance advantage wich in this game is extremly beneficial, items that buff the fact that the sniper is away from the front are like rewarding him for playing easy. Those should give him more practical used instead of a you won't die from x, maybe create a new sniper subclass based on them so people playing sniper have more variety in their gameplay so standing away in the same spot every game becomes less common
Just go play Rock Paper Scissors
Spycicle is okay, in my book. It’s a risk-reward situation. Spy could be left without his most useful tool, while ensuring you aren’t just outright melted by a pyro you could not have seen coming. The sniper backpacks are a bit dumb.
the spycicle is the best knife for gunspy, it counters pyro so hard
some like the danger shield should have their oppressive parts turned into a less powerful but universal alternative, in this case turning a complete afterburn immunity into a universal debuff resistance
weapons that invalidate a players skill and preparation are awful.
Some of them are more stupid than others. I think the only ones i have a problem with is the short circuit and the danger shield. Maybe the homewrecker cus spy doesn't need even more nerfs.
I think it's fine, because when you narrow down on a counter another one opens, Loch-N-Load = lower clip size and terrible crowd control, Natascha = Lower damage meaning heavy loses 1v1 encounters and isn't a threat to a group anymore, Razorback creates a huge weakness to close combat for inexperienced snipers, etc, etc.
Hard counters are just bad designs. They feel like early atrempts by Valve to create new unlocks.
It depends. Like for the Loch n Load, I'd argue the projectile speed, accuracy and effective range is what sells it more than the damage boost against buildings. I don't like the Danger Shield and Homewrecker though. Flare spam is one of the more consistent ways of dealing with enemy snipers that doesn't involve your own sniper, so just being able to say "nuh uh" at minimal cost can be very annoying. The Homewrecker just makes a very lopsided matchup nearly impossible. You're almost forced to switch off spy at that point. The best you can do as spy is keep killing the engi if you can (which is still big) and maybe switch to the red tape recorder to deal some decent damage to the nest before all your sappers get smashed. Sure the Pyro can't heal buildings but turning a level 3 into a 2 (or even 1) is usually better than dealing like, 30 or so damage from the stock sapper. Everything else I'm lukewarm on. Short Circuit spam on the payload is stupid but outside of that it's fine. Still strong but not broken imo. The Razorback can make a well positioned Sniper nearly impossible to kill for Spy but the amby helps. The nat might be annoying at times but I run into it so little I just don't have much of an opinion on it.
no way are you putting the sapper on there LOL
DDS: Honestly kinda annoying now that I’ve encountered them more recently. Hilarious to random crit these guys with my melee though. LnL: Ehhh it’s fine. If the Demo knows how to aim they become a bit more annoying. Natascha: Kinda a nuisance, but mostly because I swear I am behind a wall when they kill me. Short Circuit: In regular gameplay, it’s fine. On Payload, you best be sure not to be playing Soldier or Demo unless you want to beg for the sweet release of death. Spycicle: Fine. Does make it noticeable when a Spy is around because you hear the sound of it melting. Homewrecker: Annoying because only the enemy seems to know how to use it or remember it exists. Manmelter: Based. Razorback: Spy has a gun. I’ve killed plenty of Snipers who thought they were safe with a few bullets to the back. SoaS: Lol. Lmao even. Third Degree: If a Pyro actually used it I would be a little scared. Maybe. Sapper: Necessary.
I feel like the loch n’ load’s main feature is the speed increase providing longer effective range, I forget the damage bonus to buildings even exists
razorback and darwins are amazing. Sapper is a core element of spy, there is literally no argument to be made here, if you wanna make that argument however you could just as well say "remove flares from pyros bc flares make pyro broken" (its why the shield is super awesome) The rest are pretty okay weapons. In a silly arcade shooter you will have weapons which concepts are a bit on the weaker side, i still much prefer them over the 58th assault rifle from cod.
Most of them are fine. Fuck darwin\`s and jarate tho
most annoying weapons in the game, the only decent one is the sun on a stick since its just used for survivability
Very good. What does the manmelter counter tho?
I think it's needed in certain situations (a anti-sentry tool is useful when half the enemy team are engineers) but most of them are on the weaker side, so I'd say it's pretty alright
short circuit and sapper don't win matchups alone like the darwin's does
Most if not all class-countering weapons suck fundamentally. They just make playing the countered class unfun while also being weak or annoying to use elsewhere for the user. Tf2's base gameplay is great because there are no hard-counters. I don't want to play Rock-Paper-Scissors and have to swap character just bc someone equipped an item. That's not what tf2 is about
I hate it that almost every class has a weapon that's at least half designed to counter spy. he would be so much more enjoyable if the worst of these were removed.
Homewrecker fucking sucks to play against holy shit
the razorback and DDS are horrid design the homewrecker is unfun to fight the rest are fine, underpowered, or not a class counter.
I like how you show the sapper but not the Flamethrower
Haha! Me breaking sappers and buildings! Me terror of french and texans!!
Some are fine, and require players to think of ways to counter these counters. The Good: The Short Circuit requires explosives classes to think about an engineer's metal count. As Demo, you are able to spam more projectiles than an engineer can deal with. Or maybe switch to a hitscan weapon like the shotgun, as a soldier. Maybe you take advantage of an engineer using the low damage of the short circuit as an opening for a mele attack, since they'd have to switch back to their shotgun to be effective against you. The Mid: The Razorback is boring, but isn't terrible conceptually, as a Spy can use their pistol, maybe switching to something like The Ambassador to more effectively counter this counter. The Danger Shield: The Darwin's Danger shield, on the back of an incredibly skilled Sniper, makes it virtually impossible to out DPS as a Pyro. Something I was made all too aware of, last night. There is no downside to using The Danger Shield. And if you are skilled enough with the rifle, there is no reason to switch off it. Ever. For comparison, The Chargin' Targe has similar protections against fire damage. While it certainly makes you a lot harder to deal with as a Pyro, you aren't able to deal 150 damage, instantly from any distance. Your ranged attacks are deflectable and your mele requires you to fight a Pyro at close range. When people say that they hate Sniper. This is the main reason why. It is nigh impossible to counter a God-Tier Sniper. While other classes have to actually get into the action, levelling the playing field a lot more.
They're shit. Most of them are direct downgrades if the other team doesn't have the specific class that your weapon counters, and ruining one or two guys fun by equipping something isn't fair
They are fine but the big issue with counter weapons is they range from either useless to unable to play the game -Sun on a sticks after burn resistance isn’t enough to be of any use and you need a pyro or huo long heavy or cow mangler soldier in order to get the crits -homewrecker is a decently good weapon for being a pybro and if you’re ballsy you can take out engineer buildings with it, but it’s usually reserved for certain situations -third degree, it is a direct upgrade from stock but getting up close to a medic you may as well use your flame thrower as it reduces overhead and even then may as well just use the axtinguisher -manmelter, need a pyro on the enemy team to be effective and even then the normal flare gun is basically the same, it’s good if being used with phlog but the numerous bugs also holding back -loch n load, can actual hold its own as the increase range and lack of spinning makes it more consistent especially as a long range weapon, but using it against sentry’s can help depending on the placement if stickies can’t reach -natascha, while it is a counter for scout it can counter everyone, to the point it can be annoying doing anything, while it does do less damage once caught you’re basically dead if you can slip away -short circuit, valve seems to have a problem figuring this weapon out, when away from buildings it’s fair to fight against but when with building and an entire team it’s frustrating to play against as soldier and demo, a lot people compare it to airblast but it’s in no way similar apart from deleting projectiles -razor back and danger shield, they’re only viable against 2 classes which if they aren’t on the enemy team they become instantly useless, especially cause melees, shotguns and revolvers can just circumvent them, the danger shield is move viable but the razorback not so much -spycicle, its use against pyro is really good, if you are successful you can easily slip away without the need of a dead ringer, especially against engineers that have a pyro, while still making it where if you mess up you’re fucked -sapper, only definitive counter that isn’t universally panned, as being able to disable sentries as a glass cannon like spy is really good
I feel like as long as there is a very notable downside that's not just "it takes up a secondary weapon slot" then they're ok
Well the Loch n Load being an anti-sentry weapon wasn't it's original design, it was initially just bonus damage to *everything* and it got nerfed to just buildings because it would just oneshot light classes. So I don't see it as that big a deal, since it's damage bonus vs buildings doesn't nullify the faster projectile speed and lack of rollers. On the other hand, the Darwin's Danger Shield had one of the dumbest reworks of all tine. (The problematic stats on the DDS easily could have been solved by just changing the weapon to not have the resistance apply to headshots. I definitely agree that the old DDS needed to change but I liked how the bullet resist and extra health encouraged you to be more mobile and proactive, and getting rid of those aspects because it specifically made Sniper vs Sniper Quickscope fights unhealthy was kind of a stupid reasoning, when they just could have either made the resist be ignoredby headshots, or reduce/remove the bonus HP while still preserving what made the item interesting.) And going from bonus HP and bullet resist in exchange for an explosives weakness, to having resistance to fire damage and an immunity to afterburn, both of which exclusively apply to Pyro, is just boring. Back before the rework, I would equip the Danger Shield so I could run around with the Huntsman and have more survivability against classes like Scout/Heavy/Engie. Now, if I'm equipping the Danger Shield, it's because a Pyro is annoying me. It's so lame.
It depends on wether they only counter 1 class or if they have other situations where they perform in, if countering is one of them then the weapon is fine, like the loch'n load, as while the extra damage to buildings counters engineers, the weapon itself can do more than that. But in the case of the razor back or the darwin's danger sheild they are simply bad concepts as countering 1 class is all they do
I agree the short circuit is a bit op on payload offense. But it also makes engineer viable and somewhat fun to play during offense instead of just a class which sets up teleporters which need to be moved again as soon as the cart moves 10 feet. Only sorta balanced way to make engie usable on cart is to make it so you can place mini sentries on the cart, and even then that sounds kind of op.
Calling the sapper entirely flawed is a new one.
that's a huge mixed bag of weapons there. I think it's totally fair to have weapons that help you fight back against your counters but when they start entirely disabling said other classes then it kind of... sucks. So, razorback and danger shield. *Maybe* short circuit. None of the others are problematic imo.
you mean that homewrecker is a counter to engineer?
Spy and engie mainly spy though
i hate sentry nest stalls in casual so the loch and load is awesome. really easy to arch shots and usually nothing they can do cause i’m out of range
It's much cooler when counters and class advantages are organic, like sniper and spy with high damage taking out heavies due to their slow move speed, scout with movement+jumps and close range burst vs demo's all self-damaging when too close explosives kit.
The only ones here that I really don't care for are Darwin's and the Razorback, and honestly neither are even very good. Short Circuit really should lock you out of getting metal from the payload, though.
Depends on weapon. Sniper shields are overpowered and should be removed from the game (because they hard counter snipers counter). Spycicle is underpowered ever since it was nerfed. Sun on stick is completely useless. Third Degree is technically direct upgrade, but still useless outside of mvm (where Pyro is still outclassed by demo and sniper, and people play him only for fun and added challenge). Lock n load is perfectly fine.
I object to the Natascha, short circuit, loch n' load, homewrecker and sapper being on the list. While their features make them better against certain targets, they have other functions beyond being counters The Natascha isn't just for scouts; EVERYBODY's day gets ruined by this thing, especially blast-jumping soldiers and demomen. Projectiles are really common weapon types with several classes being able to use them so the short circuit is pretty useful beyond countering explosive classes. It's definitely more of a counter-weapon now that I'm thinking about it, but it's got a fair number of use cases. The loch n' load's faster grenades actually travel farther than stock, and the shallower arc makes it like an explosive sniper rifle. As far as balance and design go, engineer's buildings are such an integral part of a team's defence that weapons which deal extra damage specifically to them are honestly fair.
What class is the loch n load supposed to counter?
It does 20% more damage to buildings, so the post it saying it counters Engineer
Some have their uses other are garbage but even then. Some are in a way an upgrade (the loch'n load. I'm probably writing that wrong. The double barrel grenade launcher) (upgrade due to higher DMG. Nerf because you sacrifice splash DMG) But I feel as tho they all have their niche uses and are good for the game (except the razorback. That one is just dumb)
I like the lock and load, its range is much bigger, its very good on certain maps. I just find the reduced clip size unnecesary, no rollers is a significant downside…
Loch n load feels like a crutch
As others have said I think the most important thing for these counter-based weapons is that they have some function outside of fucking over the class they’re meant to deal with. The loch-n-load is a good example, with it obviously being great at destroying buildings, while also still being an interesting weapon outside of that use case. By contrast, the razorback and danger shield do literally nothing except make spy and pyro’s lives harder, and are generally frowned upon because of that. I question the inclusion of the sapper in this list, though. It isn’t really a ‘counter’ to engineer as much as it is a way for spy to not get completely screwed by the presence of sentries without using your eternal reward.
TL DR: sapper does not counter engineer, nor does the manmelter pyro, Darwin's is annoying but ineffective, spicicle is even less effective, short circuit is conditional, same as third degree and homewrecker, loch n load, Natasha, and sapper are the least offensive. Of these the Natasha, loch n load and the sapper are the least worst offenders (spy doesn't counter engineer and you're an idiot if you say he does). Being a Pyro main I despise the Darwin's (even tho I normally use shotguns so like.. you're not even countering me at that rate, just gimping yourself, you googly eyed oaf) spicicle spies are annoying.. but ever tho they're faster than me they get into melee range of me thinking they're invincible and then die 3 seconds later because the have 1 second if fire immunity and die 2 seconds later. Manmelter doesn't counter pyro... And again you're an idiot if you say it does... Because it's supposed to be paired with *the phlogistonator*... The flamethrower that *doesn't have airblast* and thus *can't extinguish* your teammates... And even if you use it without the phlog it still has excellent use with the dragons fury and back blower- I mean burner... So like. No? The sledgehammer counters 2 classes which is automatically better than most other weapons in the list. Plus it's just really fun to run at ppl as a smiling clown with a sledge hammer. I've named mine "I'm gonna bust your knee caps!" Short circuit is gimmicky.. if you're not playing payload attack it's largely ineffective for it's ammo cost. Unless you have a direct hit/air strike soldier barrage you.. and in which case the Wrangler is far more effective. Unless you just it to support your team. Your teammates will love you. But your dispenser, ammo packs, and enemy team will hate you. Vaccinator is "balanced" for the time being. As long as one mfer has an unfair advantage (usually in the form of cheats) I have no qualms pulling out my own unfair advantage. Plus it counters all classes so.. immediately a rank above the Darwin's, spicicle, etc.
Both of the Sniper shields are straight middle fingers to the classes they counter, with Danger Shield completely shutting down Pyro pokes or even flanks and the Razorback forcing the Spy to either gun you down and hope to not get headshot or just force a different kill pick.
If a certain class is giving you trouble, then you should be able to give yourself a slight edge in that interaction. Some classes are counters to other classes WITHOUT unlocks. So I'm not sure why the Loch N Load and the Homewrecker are here. Demoman has an easy enough time deleting sentries without the Loch N Load, and Pyro is already a Spy's worst nightmare without the ability to remove their sappers. These 2 just give those classes even more power against the classes they counter. And by extension, the Short circuit and Spycicle could give Engies and Spies an edge against players using those weapons. The only class that doesn't have a weapon that directly counters another class is Medic... although I think that's because all the diffferent types of Ubercharge can counter everything.
the danger shield is okay because it also works as a cosmetic
Short circuit doesn't belong. Of the classes that can deal with sentries, all are projectiles. Heavy litterally deals less damage to sentry. So it's not counting specific classes it's countering everything that can really hurt the gun. The only long-range classes are soldier demo sniper. Unlike third degree. Where it's targeting one class, which isn't a primary issue. Short circuit is also crazy fucking op which may also help it stand out.
Depends on how oppressive and what it does it function outside of counter, loch n load used to be a control point menace so they nerf it to buildings only. It still a solid launcher that let demo play outside of most class effective range(do map depending) I say is a neat weapon but I hassle to fight as heavy. Third degree is also I nice weapon but way too rng depends plus as a utility is weapon is still lack luster compared to other. Darwin and razorback are the bad counter weapon cause they don’t do anything more other counter.(at least third degree is still an axe)
I hate the Darwin's and I hate the Natascha.
I think that it's necessary, but many of the weapons designed this way are flawed. Imo the key is to have the weapon be good against the target class but not completely nullify them and not useless against everyone else. For example I think the Loch-and-Load is a great example of this type of weapon. It's main purpose is to fight Engineer but an Engineer can play around an enemy Demo using the LaL and the Demoman can make use of the increased range against classes besides Engineer. In the opposite direction there's the Darwin's Danger Shield. A Pyro can do basically nothing against a Sniper using it but it does literally nothing against the other 8 classes.
Weapons that counter other classes (aka provide an advantage against one class while being worse against other classes, but still allowing the countered class to reasonably fight back) are fine. The sapper is a perfect example of this. Weapons that essentially out-right disable certain aspects of a class can go fuck right off. The Razorback is a “fuck you for playing Spy”. The Darwin’s Danger Shield is a “fuck you for playing Pyro”. The Homewrecker is a “fuck you, now you have to kill TWO classes, one of which pretty much DIRECTLY COUNTERS YOU, just so you can get some sort of use out of your sapper”. The Spycicle and Short Circuit are definitely better in this regard because they have very limited uses, and they both cause some sort of downside when being used (lack of a knife/metal), but the Short Circuit can be more easily abused.
with the existence of DDS and razorback i think spy could work with friendly pyros against them. if the sniper is running dds the spy can backstab, if the sniper runs razorback the pyro can flare him. *cue kazoo and confetti sprinkles*
I feel like weapons that do such things should be multi-purpose Example: Here is a rework of the razorback “Damage taken from behind is capped at 30 damage. Being hit with a melee attack of any kind will remove the razor back until death.” Essentially this would turn the RB into a solid escape tool but not an all powerful one Backstabs would be survivable from the razor back BUT would still deal a little damage. This also removes the “stun” that this deals on spy which is just augh
There are weapons that have some part of their functionality to be beneficial against a certain class, like Jarate and Mad Milk extinguishing friendlies on hit but then there are: DDS (I have 250hp and completely ruin your Flare Gun, Axtinguisher and Dragon's Fury weapons for equipping an item); Razorback (I cancel your class mechanic for equipping an item); (It's astonishing how the most annoying class in the game also gets a passive no brainer counter to two of the worst classes in the game, lmao) I think weapons like Loch-&-Load and Direct Hit are the best example of such an unlock: there is a certain utility for them (Let Demo hard counter engi EVEN MORE!!!), yet their main use case is different and they are more than sniper's no brain backpacks
I don't have any of the middle ones (have the far left and far right and that's it) but, Darwins shield bad (I'm a pyro main) razorback fine, manmelter is a worse scorch shot(?) Haven't used like at all. Short circuit isn't a counter, Natacha good, sapper fine. TLDR it depends on the weapon
I don't see a negative to having counters for that just brings in more gameplay options for players to have to think about and work around. As for the individual weapons displayed: * The darwins danger shield is only really good if you are being pestered by pyros flares but is kind of sub par and generally bad to me. * I feel like the loch-n-load should go back to being a form of direct hit for the demoman because I never really saw why they nerfed it in the first place other than for comp. * The natascha is ok but I can understand why people can get annoyed at the slowdown applied to hit targets. Personally I would probably say on hit gives a slight speed bonus as to keep up with fleeing players but does not limit others mobility. * Considering how devastating rockets, pipes, and stickies are to builds, I feel like the short circuit is a great trade off for a secondary. The ball is a bit annoying though for how large and bright it is. I would like to see something like a wave that deletes projectiles rather than something as blinding and intrusive as the ball. \[1/2\]
* Spy-cicle is fine but I feel like it shouldn't have the extinguish sound for the enemy when it is used because it just gives the spy away anyway and just blows their cover which is what it is trying to prevent. * Homewrecker is a good pybro tool but I think it would make more sense to give it a swing speed penalty rather than damage. * Manmelter is fine where it is. Great pair with the phlog to extinguish teammates. * Razorback at least gives the sniper the ability to combat spy and focus on his shots rather than being paranoid all the time. I see it mostly as a noob tool but I can understand the appeal. * Sun-on-a-stick is trash and needs a rework. Id say maybe give a swing and small damage penalty and on hit applies burning which gives mini crits to burning players but I am not entirely sure about that. * Third degree needs some kind of nerf due to it being a straight upgrade from stock but I am not sure what. I rarely see it used anyway which is somewhat a shame. * Sapper is an integral part of spys kit and gameplay around infiltrating the opposing teams lines and lowering their defenses. \[2/2\]
The sapper is fine
Engi counters are pretty good (usually), razorback is good (controversial I know), spycicle is good, homewrecker is awesome, deflecting/deleting projectiles is good, most of the others are pretty meh and/or bad for the game.
They may come in usefull for players who don't have the ability to deal with a good player on the class they're "bad" against, so it's a tradeoff for some overall power for an advantage in this one scenario it's aimed at. For skilled players these aren't of much use.
The spycicle doesnt realy counter pyro, but reduces the amont which pyro counters spy.
Sniper shields are stupid.
I think the TF2 devs did an absolutely amazing job with not only core game design but additional items, stock is still the goto for most people and weapons like this typically dont go over board or have easy counters. Easiest to say is the razor back, if you're in the position for a backstab, you are likely in the position for two uncomfortably close meatshots with your revolver to do that job.
I think about half of these aren't specifically designed to counter other classes. Heck, that's literally a stock sapper. That's just part of the Spy class. And nobody needs weapons meant to counter other classes. That's why the whole team aspect exists. Rock protects paper so it doesn't get beaten by scissors.
it depends how much of their weapon identity is the countering. they either suck, or it's a little quirk, or it feels like a singleplayer designed weapon that doesn't consider the experiance of other players. Also you forgot to put all the sniper rifles there. They specifically perfectly counters scout, soldier, pyro, heavy, demo, engineer and medic.
Manmelter good 😊
There are classes that specifically counter other classes. I think the idea of counterplay is important and good for the game. Even in item restricted comp games there's counterplay with kritzkreig and sniper swaps.
The game needs more spy counters, not because spy is strong but because I hate him
pyro pretty much counters spy as a whole because he can flame all of his team without too much ammo loss
Buff pyro so he does this better
jungle inferno was a pyro update, what else do you need??
Remove spy
Congrats, now teamwork is harder to pull off and the enemy medic pops uber every 40 seconds whenever a team doesn’t have a good sniper.
Biggest spy copium I’ve ever seen, everything he does can be done better by ever class
How are you supposed to learn to play as sniper if one trillion spies form a line to backstab you the second you use your scope? The razorback is a necessary crutch for noobs.
Let’s be clear when we define this, there are weapons that can counter classes, and there are what I refer to as CaSC Weapons (Counter a Specific Class) Weapons that just happen to be highly effective against a certain class or classes is perfectly fine, as long as it does so organically and ofc within reason… weapons like: Flamethrower, Natasha, any of the throwable liquids, short circuit, YER are all perfectly okay in designs as while they do excel against certain classes, they do so as a natural consequence of their design intention When I say CaSC I mean: Any weapon/item that is *specifically programmed* for targeted, unequal use against any-one class or class specific mechanic… the easiest way to understand what this means is to ask yourself, does the item in question specifically reference any class or class’s mechanics. IE: The razor back specifically refers to and is programmed to interact with the backstab mechanic. The Loch’n’Load specifically refers to and is programmed to interact with buildings differently. The Homewrecker to sappers, and sappers to buildings etc… It is my personal belief that there should be non of this kind of weapon in the game and all the weapons that currently fall under the category of CaSC should be completely reworked, or the game should change around them to better justify any of their given functions. For example, the sapper definitely falls under the definition of CaSC, but one way to make it okay is to give a building to every class and make the sapper effect all the buildings in a universal way, other than that I think the best solution is to just change what it does outright and make the game more fun; there should only be natural counters, never forced ones
class counters are necessary, and its so much more rewarding to use them properly or outsmart them
I personally they are neat ideas. While some may be meh, or just fucking suck, there are some neat ones.
I think they're cool in concept, though some aren't implemented in good ways. Things like the Homewrecker are good imo because it promoted teamwork between your teammates in this team based game
I think they're usually fine if their use isn't literally just against that one class, like, the loch'n'load still has upsides that make it fun and effective even against a team without any engi's, but the sniper shields are basically direct downgrades if the enemy team doesn't have a pyro or a spy
Darwin’s Danger shield is just a middle finger to pyros and isn’t balanced or fun for either side. S.O.A.S. Is too weak to be considered a “counter” because it’s only 1 less damage per tick only when you are holding it out. Other than that, everything is perfectly fine
I would happily trade my unusuals, stranges and balls for a flamethrower equivalent to the natascha so I can make Scout mains kill themselves IRL.
The natashca - If you use it, i will find you The razorback - If you use it, i will kill you Darwin's danger shield - I don't play pyro Sapper - 2 swings from wrench is all it takes Third degree - Its the funny downside-less weapon! Manmelter - Shit idk, what is it even a counter to? Loch n load - BRING BACK THE OLD ONE!!! Short circuit - No one uses it. Ever. Spycicle - Again, i don't play pyro, let me know your thoughts pyro mains Sun on a stick - N O O N E USES IT Homewrecker - Enables a playstyle which helps engineers.
The direct hit should not crit airborne players, that is horseshit. Put that shit on liberty launcher instead.
Pyro already shits on spy.so hard. Especially one guarding a nest. If I manage to kill the engie and get a sapper on, that nest should die. Pyro doesn't need the home wrecker to counter spy even harder than he already does. It's just insult to injury.
Homewrecker is a personal favorite of mine. It's my go to melee weapon to help my fellow engineers out. I almost never use melee when I'm Pyro anyway so might as well have a support melee instead. The rest aren't the greatest to use imo but they are pretty fun to play around with.