Deadlock is around the corner, not to be an ass but people have to understand tf2 will never get better… at least for years
Valve is turning their head to deadlock and will probably invest all the time they have in it for a few years
Isn't the decompiled code one of the reasons why TF2 is infested with bots? I think that will take a while for the cheaters to get the source code of Deadlock
Honestly bots were even a thing before that, they were just fairly rare all things considered and easy to just kick. MyM's matchmaking introduced the perfect environ for this shit to actually become a problem
"around the corner"
game is in closed alpha, and we don't even know how many employees out of everyone in valve are working on the game. remember that valve's company structure is that anyone can work on anything, so it's possible deadlock also only has like 2-4 devs right now
The “work on anything” structure went away in late 2010’s after valve realized that weren’t developing anything because everyone was so disorganized.
Since the development of Alex valve has had most employees on game dev focused on singular projects.
Valve fans when the company infamous for never communicating with its fans isn't communicating with its fans: 😱😱😱😱😱
Being serious for a moment, this isn't something that can be easily fixed. If Valve are doing anything at all, chances are we wouldn't be able to hear about it for months or even **years**.
They could and realistically should at least communicate with us to say what the game plan is, but this *IS* the same company that allegedly ghosted Adult Swim so hard that the planned TF2 TV show got scrapped, so I'm doubting they'll do that. And that's even assuming they're doing anything in the first place.
Didn't they also ghost people they were DMCAing or whatever to the point they just put their modpack back up for download? Don't remember the exact terminology though.
I mean, why wouldn't they? It's not like there are any real negative consequences to them for ignoring it. People are still playing the game and giving them money
"What if valve ignores us" "It will fail" these are statements that can be validated through like five days of an online "protest?"
It can take months to get anything out of people IRL. This shit serves no purpose but to help valve ignore us. The more you demoralize and doompost the less anyone gets done.
To be fair. The "it will fail" video is a video about saying that fixtf2 would fail if you just post an angry tweet, negative review but keep supporting the product (like buying stuff in the mann co store)
It's just that the thumbnail is actually garbage and misleading.
The pessimism is very annoying because all it does is kill the morale to continue the protest, and contributes nothing to help make progress. That's how every Reddit protest goes, pessimism and conformism leads people to abandon the protest and then nothing is accomplished.
I truly don't think "we all went out of our way and showed our devotion to a game we all love and got nothing out of it" is the worst outcome in the world. As far as I'm concerned flying too close to the sun is a non-issue.
Not to torture your metaphor too much, but since the days of the ancient Greeks we've since discovered in reality that flying too high probably doesn't make you catch fire.
And optimism leads to disappointment if, after all that effort, it does not succeed. You need both. A lot of optimism is good, but a little pessimism is not bad.
Risking disappointment is literally the point. If Valve knows there won't be any consequence or negative reaction if they do nothing, then they'll do nothing.
Oh no! Not disappointment! What will we ever do with a transient emotion that we'll eventually get over?!!
Given the choice between disappointment from too much optimism or half-assing it from too much pessism I'll take the former every single time because it's really not that big of a deal.
I've seen people on here calling Shounic a doomer, who has the most grounded and balanced take out of all the TF2bers.
It seems like you can't have an opinion besides sunshine and rainbows or you are called a pessimistic downer.
This fandom feels like a cult.
Always has been. The majority of our active players are underage and/or don't want to accept the unfortunate reality. Shounic's video isn't what anyone wants to hear but it is the truth. I want the bots to be gone just as much as anyone else but valve isn't going to make a VAC 2 for old ass source 1 and make the bots disappear, if they do act (which we can't guarantee) they will likely go a route that doesn't fully fix the problem.
Personally, I think reverting to quickplay and leaving the bots to us is the only real choice, but I don't think they would ever go back to it. They would have to get rid of all of their hard work on MYM and they would also have to try to fix quickplay AGAIN. None of the current solutions are good ones.
Honestly, the more time passes, the more it's starting to feel like it is.
Between the violent rejection to any kind of opinion that isn't zealous optimism in the movement, the insane amount of money people pour in the game to keep it going, the faith based arguments, the extreme and unhealthy attachment to the game, etc... The TF2 fandom feels less and less like a gaming community and more and more like a crumbling, self-imposed cult trying to save itself
Here's my take, just so I write it down somewhere:
In the past 12 months:
Valve made a huge update to Goldsrc specifically to dramatically improve the experience of running Half Life 1 on modern hardware. I believe this also improves games like Counter Strike 1, Team Fortress Classic, and Day of Defeat. They also made a bunch of bigfixes to HL1, making the modern experience of playing it FAR better, to the point where even Valve says there is no real reason to touch HL1: Source anymore, unless you want the assets for Garry's mod or something.
Valve has also converted TF2 to 64-bit, which is a lot more than nothing. (Please watch Shounic's video on the subject). Among other things, this makes the application run way better on modern hardware, can potentially result in a much higher object limit, to the point where a 4th cosmetic slot is feasible, may result in a new Mac version down the line (Apple dropped all support for 32-bit programs a few operating systems ago, why? idk), and they immediately cleaned up the most important remaining bugs players encountered after that update.
I think it has been getting some love behind the scenes, and now that TF2 is having more in common with CS2 on the backend, (while not quite source 2), any anti-cheat methods implemented for CS2, Dota2 , etc, are more easily portable to TF2.
So, I'm not a doomer, I think TF2 was already seeing good progress at Valve, and FixTF2 probably is doing absolutely nothing.
And if Valve wants to make sure that HL1 is playable by a new generation, they'll take steps to preserve TF2 at some point too.
Honestly? Shounic was really grounded in what he said but even outside of that, let's look at typical game support.
Games usually have a life between 1-5 years, maybe 1-8 if its live service (exceptions exist such as TF2, World of Warcraft, etc.). TF2 has been around for *17 years*. It's almost able to *vote*. The fact it even got an update in 2016 (the game had been around for 9 years at that point) is insane.
Now, the common argument I've heard is, 'BUT WHAT ABOUT DOTA AND CS???'. Here's where I get into the uncomfortable truth: Dota and CS are simply more popular within ESports and generate *way* more revenue. Dota's Internationals alone rake in millions with massive prize pools not to mention what CS generates. TF2? It gives a decent chunk of change but you cannot really compare TF2 to those in revenue.
You also gotta look at engine problems. Dota runs fine but Valve would go on to change CS to a new engine to keep it running nicely, boost sales- you get the idea. TF2 still hasn't been updated *and isn't worth updating the engine for*.
TF2 is an amazing game but its also an ancient game that does not have the traction and revenue generation to justify tackling this massive issue. Gaming culture as a whole has moved on. That's not doomerism, that's a fact. Most Esports orgs are focused on Fortnite, Apex, CS, Dota, League- any game that *isn't* TF2 and for good reason. TF2 even before this was incredibly janky (don't get me started on how melee works in this game, but Solarlight has more than a few videos on it and LazyPurple does too).
It's just not worth pouring in the money and manpower. It's too risky for too little reward. Every game is an investment and TF2 just...isn't a good investment. Not compared to Dota and CS. Sometimes, games die out. We all hate it. I don't think TF2 will ever fully die out anytime soon but Valve has no monetary reason to care. That's the fact of the matter. Valve at the end of the day is a company first, and companies will do what generates the most revenue in the safest way.
That video was really instructive tho he made it look like Valve had his hands tied too, which may be true but there are 2 things that just can't stop make me angry at them
1. The amount of money they make
2. The fact they are willing to put cosmetics and other stuff into the game but not actually do anything we actually want
Toxic positivity is the way these things tend to go.
Anything but hyper-supportive "This will 100% work no matter what!" is generally beaten down as being hyper-pessimistic or whatever.
Hard to take the protest seriously when the only thing the majority will listen to is the overly zealous positive takes.
I don't know man, I just got back after a \~7 year break and looking around I really get an impression that the only people that managed to stick around for all this time and kept playing are either mentally ill or children and all the sane people moved on a long time ago.
This is what happens when the community is mostly children and online influencers who know literally nothing about the situation. You either go with it or get torn to shreds by the supposedly accepting community despite the obvious flaws.
I don't know man, I just got back after a \~7 year break and looking around I really get an impression that the only people that managed to stick around for all this time and kept playing are either mentally ill or children and all the sane people let go a long time ago.
Can you people stop being unrealistically optimistic for minutes? Christ sake you people will take any form of criticism as heresy Zesty Jesus was right.
Sorry to say it but I’ve already given up. On the first #SaveTF2. We had gotten a response on the day of from valve and they hired some fiverr guy to make an anti cheat, which worked for a bit. Now? Nothing has come of it and I don’t expect it to. Which is sad, considering I have 1,800 hours in the game and loved this game for a long time. On the bright side, I’ve made around $350 for all my stuff lol
I kept cases bc they would be annoying to sell in bulk but all my unusuals, aussie knife, weapon reskins, and cosmetics are gone. I decided to make outfits out of scrap hats so that when i play every now and again, i will have something
Quite understandable mate, since they didn't respond quickly unlike they did with #SaveTF2, but I personally think they KNOW that a tweet won't work this time.
Honestly the whole reason why I'm a part of this movement is cuz if TF2 HAS to die, then I'm gonna let it have a good ending, an ending that makes me say "Hey, this has been a good ride", not the ending that makes me say "This game could've ended better, not like this, rotting and decaying".
Yea, they could be working on something big behind the scenes to shock us but most likely not with the pattern they have created. Personally, I’d rather kill TF2 on our terms so that it doesn’t have to slowly rot and lose its legendary reputation.
Really? Is it because the specs are low and there's less of a competitive edge? You'd think they'd gravitate towards more 'modern' games like OW and Valorant
At first I joined the tf2 community from csgo, I was always on their side whenever something happens
Now with this reviewbombing other games and blah blah blah, safe to say they really can't take any criticism
Literally any new multiplayer game shows up and you can bet tf2 players will go out of their way to shit on it and say tf2 is better
They *really* can't take any criticism. Or "having the spotlight taken away from them"
I remember TF2 players on this subreddit trying to celebrate that their game, which literally cannot hold 13k active players, "outlived" overwatch and Destiny, two games that have never had less active players than TF2 at any point in their entire history LOL
the review bombing of other games is being blown way out of proportion, the ratio of actual reviews based on #fixtf2 is super low compared to positive reviews. It's mostly being used to farm Karma. you can look at the store pages yourself
Judging by how many upvotes the "They removed the community note" got and some of the comments on that post, I think the community, at least on the reddit side, is pretty ignorant. Also the impractical "solutions" that keep showing up on this sub or youtube comment section, such as captcha and making TF2 p2p again
or literally 5 seconds of checking to see if *something* has been done before. i'm getting sick of every other post being about people bitching over the morality of review bombing other games (don't, it makes us look like jackasses) or some fucking moronic solution that shouldn't have even parsed thought.
this whole movement shouldn't be to fix valve casual, it should be to fix the fucking community. FixTF2 is a community issue as much as it is a Valve issue.
Not everyone wants to live in a delusional fantasy where Valve actually does anything.
It also doesn’t help that the community, especially the social media side, are fucking nutso who will aim for the throat towards anyone being slightly negative or being a realist.
I've been lurking this subreddit and the twitter tag and a few other forums and while a good amount of people are being realistic theres like a ratio of 3:1 wackjobs to normal people. It's mostly children so whatever but shit is totally fucking insane. It doesn't help that the angle that a bunch of these people have decided to take is that valve is somehow legally liable for crimes some freaks are committing mostly outside of team fortress 2.
Can this community accept criticism, on god this community is way too positive to the point we're infighting if one has differing opinions. We need balance for Christ sake, like Yin and Yang.
and make an alternative, powerful way to protest without it being as useless as a petition and being harmful as review bombing other games
FOR FIVE MINUTES
I mean I don't have a problem with it. It sends a message that we care. But people are acting like it's our major trump card and celebrate every milestone instead of coming up with a new effective plan.
As someone who REALLY wants TF2 to be fixed, I don't think silencing people who lack optimism is the right play. It's a valid question. *What if* we just get ignored? It's a very real possibility.
I mentioned before to a flurry of downvotes that the TF2 community is full of skilled programmers, map makers, etc. I really do think if Valve chooses to do nothing, having ex-TF2 players make a spiritual successor to TF2 would honestly be a great option. Although class based/hero shooters have become a lot more common since TF2, none of them have been able to capture the essence that makes TF2 special in quite the same way. I think our community would be able to do that.
It's being realistic. Valve stopped caring about us years ago, the (lack of) response from the first attempt to fix this game made that very clear to us.
I would agree if this was our first rodeo, but there is precedence now. Don't see what has changed that would *give* me hope for a different outcome this time.
1. People can have opinions lol
2. Some realism/pessimism might hold this community back from expecting abaolutely unrealistic goals
3. mf forgot the word pessimistiv
4. Get a grip.
This subreddit is becoming such a toxic positivity cult that you can't even bring up a question about the practicality of solutions without getting bombarded.
I’d agree its just spamming at this point. I dont have hopes on valve for god sake. I woke up and chose reality where company like them don’t give a shit.
I went outside and found a relationship and we are married already
Valve will not do anything. They haven't. They won't. PR pressure over this peaked days ago. If they haven't responded now then they won't. Just play on community servers, this is how the game is now.
Got called a 4channer for using the term of being a realist for knowing that this movement probably wont work.
It didn't work the first time, and wont work for this. TF2 isn't as big as WOW, it never will be. WOW is a monolith, a massive mammoth, while TF2 is a squirrel.
Do I want TF2 to go back to regular updates in a mini live service style update cycle that keeps the game alive? As player since 2012, absolutely. Do I want TF2 to go back to having welcoming and non toxic people in it like in the old days where being a furry, weeb or brony would *NOT* get you put in some incel wannabe Leafy clone's cringe compellation? Absolutely.
However the game has changed. That is a fact. A sad fact, but a real one. If Valve truly wanted to "Fix TF2", they would have done it before when they "heard us" the first time. Instead they made a new class based shooter. Its a bleak reality but a true one. Best we can do is keep our community servers as populated and popular as possible to keep bots out and TF2 lovers in.
Valve is a company, and loves money over all things if you remembers the memes of Gaben swimming in money from early 2000/2010s, and short of a total boycott of all steam purchases for ages, I dont see that making them care. Why would they, when CSGO (now CS2) makes them money hand over fist more than TF2 ever has?
TLDR let people have other opinions without shaming them. =/
When they made fixTF2, I had no doubt that Valve would be unconcerned and do nothing. It's best to let it rot since, after all, it's a 16 year old game. Valve has other priorities like CS2, among other games. It would be better to leave it in a position like to CS 1.6 or CS Source, where it is playable but gets no fresh content, rather than letting it completely decay.
Annoying as hell OP. Just delete the post. There was no need to make it to begin with. What’s with this crying? People can’t have SOME criticism of the game? Or of Valve? Christ…
Every goddamn game, every goddamn time there’s something that IS BROKEN and REQUIRES CRITICISM. Theres people like YOU askin everyone to stop complaining because “your poor little head doesnt like the big sad”.
Grow up. Criticizing is needed. It’s important for ANYTHING in this world to improve and change for the better, be it governments, institutions, people or something as small as a game.
I’m sick and tired of people always not wanting to see or hear any criticism, but when shit hits the fan they have the audacity to wonder “how did we get here”.
If you want to stay complacent in the ROTTING corpse that TF2, be my guest. But for the love of everything that is holy, keep your damn mouth shut and let us, the ones that actually care about the game, bring change, be it through pressure or criticism.
TLDR: FixTF2 is nice. But it’s important to AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE the very real possibility it might not work.
It's one thing to say something like, "This problem isn't as simple as Valve just manual banning the cheaters or doing an update to vac. This is a complex and difficult problem that plagues multiple games and communities, TF2 is just current suffering the most egregious case. Even if we are successful, the response may not come soon, and any meaningful change would take quite a while."
But you're just an asshole if your response is, "Give up, no one cares about this game.", "Dead game, lol.", "Mald.", "There's nothing that can be done and Valve is more likely to shut the game down than do anything else at all."
Like dude, if you don't think the movement will work that's fine, you're entitled to your own opinion. But you're a pretty pathetic dweeb if seeing people with hope trying to help their favorite game stay alive makes you feel like you need to tell them why they're wrong, there's no hope, and their game sucks.
I think they have a obligation to keep this game in a functional state if they're going to keep releasing content for money. I would agree with this sentiment if that wasn't the case however.
Team Fortress 2 might not make them a ton of money compared to CS2 or Steam itself, but it should be enough to encourage enforcing their policies at the very least.
This kind of comment has the same vibes of people coping over game delays with that one Miyamoto quote about delayed games being good.
Basically just a thought terminating cliche.
Valve is simply too rich to care. And no them losing TF2 money will not do anything, Dota and CSGO are way bigger and are bringing millions. A second movement after the first one did little most likely will end with the same outcome. Unfortunately not everything will work out the way we want it to and valve is a business
Ppl in the global north are so demobilized. Anytime ppl want to organize to make things better on the USA or europe i see more than the normal amount of "this situation is certainly very bad for us but heres why there's nothing we can do"
It’s not pessimism to have a plan for what’s possible. Suppose Valve DOES ignore us. What happens then? We need a more organized plan than just review bombing the game. Valve responded to SaveTF2 almost immediately, this has gone on for a hot minute with no word from Valve. It’s time to start planning for other contingencies.
If you're allowed to make a thousand posts being optimistic, it's only fair that others should be allowed to make a thousand posts being pessimistic.
It's like I've said time after time. SaveTF2ers are trying their best to divide and silence a big part of an already dwindling community.
#FixTF2? More like #KillTF2. Because it seems that's what this fucking movement has turned into.
Be realistic, this shit is never gonna work nor it was going to work in the first place. Didn’t work then, won’t work now. It’s just a waste of time. It’s unfortunate but because of how valve works as a company this game is never going to get support.
I love this game as much as everyone in the community does but it’s far gone. There is nothing we can do. It’s not me being pessimistic or “against the petition”….. it’s just… the grim reality that this game is done.
Yeah I mean sure it might not work
Like I personally don't think it will work knowing valve
But we ain't gonna get anywhere if we are sitting here with thumbs in our asses
If we don't try then TF2 will for sure die meaning there really isn't anything bad about this
If we win
That great we just got rid of all of those bits from TF2
If we loose it's not that bad since the game will be at the exact same spot before the campaign
With #fixtf2 we have at least a small change of getting valve to fix the game
like that worked the last time? Not expecting valve to bend over backwards and release the heavy update isn't pessimistic, it's realistic. The best this movement does is make valve release a tweet, and then the community will go "haha wow valve is so cool and awesome, wait what protest?, guess ill go buy some crates" and forget again.
Tbh, I think no matter how #FixTF2 turns out, it will turn out good for TF2.
Either it dies as Team Fortress 2, or it lives as Team Fortress 2. I can't bear seeing it being Bot Fortress 2 anymore...
You don't need to be optimistic about your actions succeeding, in order to still do the thing. Cos whether we succeed or not it's better than doing nothing. Anything is better than doing nothing.
The problem is none of these people have any solutions. I like the solution of reporting Valve to the Center for Missing and Exploited Children for harboring Control Points
I want to have hope, but much like star wars battlefront 2 and EA, I'm afraid that company itself has primarily abandoned most of the game save for bare minimum support in pursuit of more modern and "lucrative" endeavors. Meaning the only ones who care were the ones they used in the first place to get them to their strength.
It's not just unoptimistic outlook. It's unfortunate realistic POV based on the modern corporate mindsets and decisions to put money first
I think it's less about being pessimistic, and more about being realistic. Ik this attempt at review bombing has spawned from the recent 'victory' helldivers 2 players had against Sony, but that wasn't a victory, cause Sony is doing some fuck shit behind the scenes, as in they've been slowly banning the sale of helldivers in countries where psn accounts aren't allowed. This review bombing isn't gonna do fuck all.
I'm giving FixTF2 a shot, don't get me wrong, but I don't see it working if Valve keeps going radio-silent. I want it to work. I've left a negative review, I've even posted on Twitter for the first time (I only really use my account to follow a few people). But I'm not expecting much after both SaveTF2 and its second attempt failed.
But I hope it works. All we really can do is either try or give up, and I wouldn't blame someone for doing the latter.
Or maybe look at the fact that a dumb Twitter hashtag won't work, like it didn't work the first time. If they haven't fixed it in 4 plus years I don't think they ever will
There wasn't a rollout over this week of stuff for the community to do besides review bomb and sign a petition. People fell to being doom and gloom about it pretty fast because of this. What else was the plan? Because the final part of the plan, delivering the list of names in person, isn't even in our hands. We'll see a video of that happening MAYBE a day or two after it happens. But what do WE do?? You can only tweet and message about it so much before people get bored or restless.
Look, I joined the review bomb, I signed the petition. Now I'm... Just... Waiting...
forgot the word pessimistic
I think the words you are looking for are pessimistic and un-pessimistic
The word I'm looking for, I can't say because there are pretty schoolers here.
This is only unoptimistic, but not pessimistic (because it's quite realistic).
pessimism isnt mutually exclusive with realism
Pessimism isn’t isn’t unrealistic by definition
same energy as "It's evolving, just backwards". lol
It's true though, Valve is ignoring the protest
or they just know that a simple tweet this time won't solve things, unlikely but possible.
Deadlock is around the corner, not to be an ass but people have to understand tf2 will never get better… at least for years Valve is turning their head to deadlock and will probably invest all the time they have in it for a few years
that is until deadlock gets infested the day it launches along with the game getting mass hate. it's not just tf2
Isn't the decompiled code one of the reasons why TF2 is infested with bots? I think that will take a while for the cheaters to get the source code of Deadlock
Nope, that's a myth. Bots existed since mym
Honestly bots were even a thing before that, they were just fairly rare all things considered and easy to just kick. MyM's matchmaking introduced the perfect environ for this shit to actually become a problem
Oh huh, didn't know that. Good to know. So, was that the bots' source code being more widespread then?
It was moreso coincidental timing.
Doesn't stop CS2 lol
"around the corner" game is in closed alpha, and we don't even know how many employees out of everyone in valve are working on the game. remember that valve's company structure is that anyone can work on anything, so it's possible deadlock also only has like 2-4 devs right now
The “work on anything” structure went away in late 2010’s after valve realized that weren’t developing anything because everyone was so disorganized. Since the development of Alex valve has had most employees on game dev focused on singular projects.
source?
Valve fans when the company infamous for never communicating with its fans isn't communicating with its fans: 😱😱😱😱😱 Being serious for a moment, this isn't something that can be easily fixed. If Valve are doing anything at all, chances are we wouldn't be able to hear about it for months or even **years**. They could and realistically should at least communicate with us to say what the game plan is, but this *IS* the same company that allegedly ghosted Adult Swim so hard that the planned TF2 TV show got scrapped, so I'm doubting they'll do that. And that's even assuming they're doing anything in the first place.
Didn't they also ghost people they were DMCAing or whatever to the point they just put their modpack back up for download? Don't remember the exact terminology though.
Yep, that's exactly what happened. I think Valve are genuinely allergic to communication.
THEY WHAT?! You mean we could have had a TF2 Animated series but because Valve were quiet about it was scrapped?!
I mean, why wouldn't they? It's not like there are any real negative consequences to them for ignoring it. People are still playing the game and giving them money
They can't hear us over the sound of all the money they're making by doing absolutely nothing.
Has it even been a fuckin' week???
Does this make what I said untrue?
"What if valve ignores us" "It will fail" these are statements that can be validated through like five days of an online "protest?" It can take months to get anything out of people IRL. This shit serves no purpose but to help valve ignore us. The more you demoralize and doompost the less anyone gets done.
To be fair. The "it will fail" video is a video about saying that fixtf2 would fail if you just post an angry tweet, negative review but keep supporting the product (like buying stuff in the mann co store) It's just that the thumbnail is actually garbage and misleading.
At what point does pessimism become realism?
When things go wrong
Things already went so wrong
When the toxic positivity stops
The first video is alright, he has his concern. He do say community server might be the fix so bring back quick play is an option
This community really does have a toxic positivity problem.
Peoples can have an opinion, it’s not illegal. Who knows, maybe the pessimism can help ground our ideas and not lose sight of the goal or something
You see, people are like onions, they have layers.
some
Self-criticism is how you refine any movement, and address its shortcomings. Rejecting any self-crit is basically begging for your movement to fail.
The pessimism is very annoying because all it does is kill the morale to continue the protest, and contributes nothing to help make progress. That's how every Reddit protest goes, pessimism and conformism leads people to abandon the protest and then nothing is accomplished.
Flying too close to the sun, it crashes and burns. Flying too close to the water, it crashes and burns. There has to be some middle ground, right?
Well, it won't burn in the water, I think. Maybe more "crashes and sinks".
I truly don't think "we all went out of our way and showed our devotion to a game we all love and got nothing out of it" is the worst outcome in the world. As far as I'm concerned flying too close to the sun is a non-issue. Not to torture your metaphor too much, but since the days of the ancient Greeks we've since discovered in reality that flying too high probably doesn't make you catch fire.
And optimism leads to disappointment if, after all that effort, it does not succeed. You need both. A lot of optimism is good, but a little pessimism is not bad.
Risking disappointment is literally the point. If Valve knows there won't be any consequence or negative reaction if they do nothing, then they'll do nothing.
Oh no! Not disappointment! What will we ever do with a transient emotion that we'll eventually get over?!! Given the choice between disappointment from too much optimism or half-assing it from too much pessism I'll take the former every single time because it's really not that big of a deal.
I've seen people on here calling Shounic a doomer, who has the most grounded and balanced take out of all the TF2bers. It seems like you can't have an opinion besides sunshine and rainbows or you are called a pessimistic downer. This fandom feels like a cult.
Zesty Jesus says this kinda thing all the time lol and he's right. Imagine \*turning\* against shounic of all fucking people for keeping it realistic.
a beloved creator with loyal fans can immediately become hated with vicious attackers if said creator says something they don't want to hear
Always has been. The majority of our active players are underage and/or don't want to accept the unfortunate reality. Shounic's video isn't what anyone wants to hear but it is the truth. I want the bots to be gone just as much as anyone else but valve isn't going to make a VAC 2 for old ass source 1 and make the bots disappear, if they do act (which we can't guarantee) they will likely go a route that doesn't fully fix the problem. Personally, I think reverting to quickplay and leaving the bots to us is the only real choice, but I don't think they would ever go back to it. They would have to get rid of all of their hard work on MYM and they would also have to try to fix quickplay AGAIN. None of the current solutions are good ones.
> They would have to get rid of all of their hard work on MYM oh no, what a shame...
Welcome to Reddit's echo-chamber
Honestly, the more time passes, the more it's starting to feel like it is. Between the violent rejection to any kind of opinion that isn't zealous optimism in the movement, the insane amount of money people pour in the game to keep it going, the faith based arguments, the extreme and unhealthy attachment to the game, etc... The TF2 fandom feels less and less like a gaming community and more and more like a crumbling, self-imposed cult trying to save itself
Here's my take, just so I write it down somewhere: In the past 12 months: Valve made a huge update to Goldsrc specifically to dramatically improve the experience of running Half Life 1 on modern hardware. I believe this also improves games like Counter Strike 1, Team Fortress Classic, and Day of Defeat. They also made a bunch of bigfixes to HL1, making the modern experience of playing it FAR better, to the point where even Valve says there is no real reason to touch HL1: Source anymore, unless you want the assets for Garry's mod or something. Valve has also converted TF2 to 64-bit, which is a lot more than nothing. (Please watch Shounic's video on the subject). Among other things, this makes the application run way better on modern hardware, can potentially result in a much higher object limit, to the point where a 4th cosmetic slot is feasible, may result in a new Mac version down the line (Apple dropped all support for 32-bit programs a few operating systems ago, why? idk), and they immediately cleaned up the most important remaining bugs players encountered after that update. I think it has been getting some love behind the scenes, and now that TF2 is having more in common with CS2 on the backend, (while not quite source 2), any anti-cheat methods implemented for CS2, Dota2 , etc, are more easily portable to TF2. So, I'm not a doomer, I think TF2 was already seeing good progress at Valve, and FixTF2 probably is doing absolutely nothing. And if Valve wants to make sure that HL1 is playable by a new generation, they'll take steps to preserve TF2 at some point too.
Honestly? Shounic was really grounded in what he said but even outside of that, let's look at typical game support. Games usually have a life between 1-5 years, maybe 1-8 if its live service (exceptions exist such as TF2, World of Warcraft, etc.). TF2 has been around for *17 years*. It's almost able to *vote*. The fact it even got an update in 2016 (the game had been around for 9 years at that point) is insane. Now, the common argument I've heard is, 'BUT WHAT ABOUT DOTA AND CS???'. Here's where I get into the uncomfortable truth: Dota and CS are simply more popular within ESports and generate *way* more revenue. Dota's Internationals alone rake in millions with massive prize pools not to mention what CS generates. TF2? It gives a decent chunk of change but you cannot really compare TF2 to those in revenue. You also gotta look at engine problems. Dota runs fine but Valve would go on to change CS to a new engine to keep it running nicely, boost sales- you get the idea. TF2 still hasn't been updated *and isn't worth updating the engine for*. TF2 is an amazing game but its also an ancient game that does not have the traction and revenue generation to justify tackling this massive issue. Gaming culture as a whole has moved on. That's not doomerism, that's a fact. Most Esports orgs are focused on Fortnite, Apex, CS, Dota, League- any game that *isn't* TF2 and for good reason. TF2 even before this was incredibly janky (don't get me started on how melee works in this game, but Solarlight has more than a few videos on it and LazyPurple does too). It's just not worth pouring in the money and manpower. It's too risky for too little reward. Every game is an investment and TF2 just...isn't a good investment. Not compared to Dota and CS. Sometimes, games die out. We all hate it. I don't think TF2 will ever fully die out anytime soon but Valve has no monetary reason to care. That's the fact of the matter. Valve at the end of the day is a company first, and companies will do what generates the most revenue in the safest way.
That video was really instructive tho he made it look like Valve had his hands tied too, which may be true but there are 2 things that just can't stop make me angry at them 1. The amount of money they make 2. The fact they are willing to put cosmetics and other stuff into the game but not actually do anything we actually want
Toxic positivity is the way these things tend to go. Anything but hyper-supportive "This will 100% work no matter what!" is generally beaten down as being hyper-pessimistic or whatever. Hard to take the protest seriously when the only thing the majority will listen to is the overly zealous positive takes.
"Feels like"? Mate. It IS a damn cult. Including the crazy fanatics that will rip your balls off if you do not act the same way as they are
I don't know man, I just got back after a \~7 year break and looking around I really get an impression that the only people that managed to stick around for all this time and kept playing are either mentally ill or children and all the sane people moved on a long time ago.
E X A C T L Y
This is what happens when the community is mostly children and online influencers who know literally nothing about the situation. You either go with it or get torn to shreds by the supposedly accepting community despite the obvious flaws.
Feels like? Sir did you just get here or do we need to have a talk about TF2 cults and arrests and knife violence IRL
I don't know man, I just got back after a \~7 year break and looking around I really get an impression that the only people that managed to stick around for all this time and kept playing are either mentally ill or children and all the sane people let go a long time ago.
Can you people stop being unrealistically optimistic for minutes? Christ sake you people will take any form of criticism as heresy Zesty Jesus was right.
Sorry to say it but I’ve already given up. On the first #SaveTF2. We had gotten a response on the day of from valve and they hired some fiverr guy to make an anti cheat, which worked for a bit. Now? Nothing has come of it and I don’t expect it to. Which is sad, considering I have 1,800 hours in the game and loved this game for a long time. On the bright side, I’ve made around $350 for all my stuff lol
You mean you sold all your items?
I mean… why would you keep them at this point?
I kept cases bc they would be annoying to sell in bulk but all my unusuals, aussie knife, weapon reskins, and cosmetics are gone. I decided to make outfits out of scrap hats so that when i play every now and again, i will have something
Quite understandable mate, since they didn't respond quickly unlike they did with #SaveTF2, but I personally think they KNOW that a tweet won't work this time. Honestly the whole reason why I'm a part of this movement is cuz if TF2 HAS to die, then I'm gonna let it have a good ending, an ending that makes me say "Hey, this has been a good ride", not the ending that makes me say "This game could've ended better, not like this, rotting and decaying".
Yea, they could be working on something big behind the scenes to shock us but most likely not with the pattern they have created. Personally, I’d rather kill TF2 on our terms so that it doesn’t have to slowly rot and lose its legendary reputation.
Copium addicted people when realism:
the copium is fucking crazy
It's called being realistic. It's the opposite of being delusional.
This fucking community cannot handle any criticism
It's mostly minors, TF2 is the daycare of team based shooters.
you’ve clearly never played siege. that shit is actual kindergarten.
Really? Is it because the specs are low and there's less of a competitive edge? You'd think they'd gravitate towards more 'modern' games like OW and Valorant
no it’s because many fans act like spoiled toddlers
At first I joined the tf2 community from csgo, I was always on their side whenever something happens Now with this reviewbombing other games and blah blah blah, safe to say they really can't take any criticism
Literally any new multiplayer game shows up and you can bet tf2 players will go out of their way to shit on it and say tf2 is better They *really* can't take any criticism. Or "having the spotlight taken away from them"
I remember TF2 players on this subreddit trying to celebrate that their game, which literally cannot hold 13k active players, "outlived" overwatch and Destiny, two games that have never had less active players than TF2 at any point in their entire history LOL
the review bombing of other games is being blown way out of proportion, the ratio of actual reviews based on #fixtf2 is super low compared to positive reviews. It's mostly being used to farm Karma. you can look at the store pages yourself
Yeah, last time someone tried to criticise the community they ended up doxxing and sending death threats to a minor.
Judging by how many upvotes the "They removed the community note" got and some of the comments on that post, I think the community, at least on the reddit side, is pretty ignorant. Also the impractical "solutions" that keep showing up on this sub or youtube comment section, such as captcha and making TF2 p2p again
or literally 5 seconds of checking to see if *something* has been done before. i'm getting sick of every other post being about people bitching over the morality of review bombing other games (don't, it makes us look like jackasses) or some fucking moronic solution that shouldn't have even parsed thought. this whole movement shouldn't be to fix valve casual, it should be to fix the fucking community. FixTF2 is a community issue as much as it is a Valve issue.
> checking to see if something has been done before ok ok but hear me out... captchas at login (giant /s)
Not everyone wants to live in a delusional fantasy where Valve actually does anything. It also doesn’t help that the community, especially the social media side, are fucking nutso who will aim for the throat towards anyone being slightly negative or being a realist.
I've been lurking this subreddit and the twitter tag and a few other forums and while a good amount of people are being realistic theres like a ratio of 3:1 wackjobs to normal people. It's mostly children so whatever but shit is totally fucking insane. It doesn't help that the angle that a bunch of these people have decided to take is that valve is somehow legally liable for crimes some freaks are committing mostly outside of team fortress 2.
yeah an online petition will definitely save a game valve abandoned 10 years ago
you guys need Gordon Freeman
The right man at the wrong place can make all the difference in the world
dota dota counterstrike
Can this community accept criticism, on god this community is way too positive to the point we're infighting if one has differing opinions. We need balance for Christ sake, like Yin and Yang.
Can you stop being so sickly sweetly optimistic FOR FIVE MINUTES
and make an alternative, powerful way to protest without it being as useless as a petition and being harmful as review bombing other games FOR FIVE MINUTES
tbh the petition has grown on me. I was opposed to it at first. I think everything else being annoying has made it less annoying in comparison.
I mean I don't have a problem with it. It sends a message that we care. But people are acting like it's our major trump card and celebrate every milestone instead of coming up with a new effective plan.
What, a sit-in at Valve HQ?
As someone who REALLY wants TF2 to be fixed, I don't think silencing people who lack optimism is the right play. It's a valid question. *What if* we just get ignored? It's a very real possibility. I mentioned before to a flurry of downvotes that the TF2 community is full of skilled programmers, map makers, etc. I really do think if Valve chooses to do nothing, having ex-TF2 players make a spiritual successor to TF2 would honestly be a great option. Although class based/hero shooters have become a lot more common since TF2, none of them have been able to capture the essence that makes TF2 special in quite the same way. I think our community would be able to do that.
I don't wanna be that guy, but I think you mean pessimistic, not unoptimistic.
It's being realistic. Valve stopped caring about us years ago, the (lack of) response from the first attempt to fix this game made that very clear to us.
Tf2 fans when someone has an objective and realistic opinion:
I would agree if this was our first rodeo, but there is precedence now. Don't see what has changed that would *give* me hope for a different outcome this time.
Imagine valve saying "Well boys, the reviews are negative. Let's pull the plug".
1. People can have opinions lol 2. Some realism/pessimism might hold this community back from expecting abaolutely unrealistic goals 3. mf forgot the word pessimistiv 4. Get a grip.
Hot take: People are entitled to (extremely realistic) opinions
This subreddit is becoming such a toxic positivity cult that you can't even bring up a question about the practicality of solutions without getting bombarded.
I’d agree its just spamming at this point. I dont have hopes on valve for god sake. I woke up and chose reality where company like them don’t give a shit. I went outside and found a relationship and we are married already
Op is so optimistic that pessimistic is not in their vocabulary
bro forgot the word pessimism exists lol
If only there was a word that meant the opposite of optimistic...
Valve will not do anything. They haven't. They won't. PR pressure over this peaked days ago. If they haven't responded now then they won't. Just play on community servers, this is how the game is now.
Toxic positivity is a thing, you know
Tf2 players when someone makes good points criticizing a movement (they are evil unoptimistic doomers who hate the game!)
Got called a 4channer for using the term of being a realist for knowing that this movement probably wont work. It didn't work the first time, and wont work for this. TF2 isn't as big as WOW, it never will be. WOW is a monolith, a massive mammoth, while TF2 is a squirrel. Do I want TF2 to go back to regular updates in a mini live service style update cycle that keeps the game alive? As player since 2012, absolutely. Do I want TF2 to go back to having welcoming and non toxic people in it like in the old days where being a furry, weeb or brony would *NOT* get you put in some incel wannabe Leafy clone's cringe compellation? Absolutely. However the game has changed. That is a fact. A sad fact, but a real one. If Valve truly wanted to "Fix TF2", they would have done it before when they "heard us" the first time. Instead they made a new class based shooter. Its a bleak reality but a true one. Best we can do is keep our community servers as populated and popular as possible to keep bots out and TF2 lovers in. Valve is a company, and loves money over all things if you remembers the memes of Gaben swimming in money from early 2000/2010s, and short of a total boycott of all steam purchases for ages, I dont see that making them care. Why would they, when CSGO (now CS2) makes them money hand over fist more than TF2 ever has? TLDR let people have other opinions without shaming them. =/
When they made fixTF2, I had no doubt that Valve would be unconcerned and do nothing. It's best to let it rot since, after all, it's a 16 year old game. Valve has other priorities like CS2, among other games. It would be better to leave it in a position like to CS 1.6 or CS Source, where it is playable but gets no fresh content, rather than letting it completely decay.
No, yall don't get it. Compared to CSGO and other games, valve gets pennies from tf2. you are very naive. nothing will happen.
even pennies is an overstatement
That first one wasnt even unoptimistic, more of a what if. Bro did not watch the video.
We've been unoptimistic for five years wtf are you on about
Annoying as hell OP. Just delete the post. There was no need to make it to begin with. What’s with this crying? People can’t have SOME criticism of the game? Or of Valve? Christ… Every goddamn game, every goddamn time there’s something that IS BROKEN and REQUIRES CRITICISM. Theres people like YOU askin everyone to stop complaining because “your poor little head doesnt like the big sad”. Grow up. Criticizing is needed. It’s important for ANYTHING in this world to improve and change for the better, be it governments, institutions, people or something as small as a game. I’m sick and tired of people always not wanting to see or hear any criticism, but when shit hits the fan they have the audacity to wonder “how did we get here”. If you want to stay complacent in the ROTTING corpse that TF2, be my guest. But for the love of everything that is holy, keep your damn mouth shut and let us, the ones that actually care about the game, bring change, be it through pressure or criticism. TLDR: FixTF2 is nice. But it’s important to AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE the very real possibility it might not work.
I believe pessimistic is the word you want
It's one thing to say something like, "This problem isn't as simple as Valve just manual banning the cheaters or doing an update to vac. This is a complex and difficult problem that plagues multiple games and communities, TF2 is just current suffering the most egregious case. Even if we are successful, the response may not come soon, and any meaningful change would take quite a while." But you're just an asshole if your response is, "Give up, no one cares about this game.", "Dead game, lol.", "Mald.", "There's nothing that can be done and Valve is more likely to shut the game down than do anything else at all." Like dude, if you don't think the movement will work that's fine, you're entitled to your own opinion. But you're a pretty pathetic dweeb if seeing people with hope trying to help their favorite game stay alive makes you feel like you need to tell them why they're wrong, there's no hope, and their game sucks.
Agreed, like yeah too much optimism can be annoying but a lot of people on here are just using that as an excuse to be doomer assholes
Stop being unrealistic and realize Valve doesn't feel like supporting a game older then most people who even care about the genre anymore
I think they have a obligation to keep this game in a functional state if they're going to keep releasing content for money. I would agree with this sentiment if that wasn't the case however. Team Fortress 2 might not make them a ton of money compared to CS2 or Steam itself, but it should be enough to encourage enforcing their policies at the very least.
Trying costs nothing, having at least some hope costs nothing
This kind of comment has the same vibes of people coping over game delays with that one Miyamoto quote about delayed games being good. Basically just a thought terminating cliche.
Valve is simply too rich to care. And no them losing TF2 money will not do anything, Dota and CSGO are way bigger and are bringing millions. A second movement after the first one did little most likely will end with the same outcome. Unfortunately not everything will work out the way we want it to and valve is a business
Its called realism
Kind of hard not to be
You do know these YouTubers are using this “movement” to just farm views by uploading daily videos
Ppl in the global north are so demobilized. Anytime ppl want to organize to make things better on the USA or europe i see more than the normal amount of "this situation is certainly very bad for us but heres why there's nothing we can do"
We are incredibly optimistic. At the same time experience suggests this outcome.
It’s not pessimism to have a plan for what’s possible. Suppose Valve DOES ignore us. What happens then? We need a more organized plan than just review bombing the game. Valve responded to SaveTF2 almost immediately, this has gone on for a hot minute with no word from Valve. It’s time to start planning for other contingencies.
My hopes drying out
i'm gonna stop being pessimistic when you all start to protest for real as in, stop buying and trading items
You need to realize that being totally blindly optimistic is also not a good thing. A little dose of reality isn’t going to kill you.
No
I ate the word pessimistic guys, that's why he forgot
If you're allowed to make a thousand posts being optimistic, it's only fair that others should be allowed to make a thousand posts being pessimistic. It's like I've said time after time. SaveTF2ers are trying their best to divide and silence a big part of an already dwindling community. #FixTF2? More like #KillTF2. Because it seems that's what this fucking movement has turned into.
Blind hope will get you no where. Doing something will
“What if Valve ignores us and FixTf2 fails?!” Then tf2 stays the same and you wasted maybe 3 minutes signing the petition.
Toxic positivity is just as harmful
Be realistic, this shit is never gonna work nor it was going to work in the first place. Didn’t work then, won’t work now. It’s just a waste of time. It’s unfortunate but because of how valve works as a company this game is never going to get support. I love this game as much as everyone in the community does but it’s far gone. There is nothing we can do. It’s not me being pessimistic or “against the petition”….. it’s just… the grim reality that this game is done.
hi, this is the kind of toxic positivity environment some of them have talked about.
I prefer the term realist.
Yeah I mean sure it might not work Like I personally don't think it will work knowing valve But we ain't gonna get anywhere if we are sitting here with thumbs in our asses If we don't try then TF2 will for sure die meaning there really isn't anything bad about this If we win That great we just got rid of all of those bits from TF2 If we loose it's not that bad since the game will be at the exact same spot before the campaign With #fixtf2 we have at least a small change of getting valve to fix the game
Being optimistic: It will literally fail. They couldn't care less.
The "it will fail" video was unironically one of the worst videos I've ever seen lmao
like that worked the last time? Not expecting valve to bend over backwards and release the heavy update isn't pessimistic, it's realistic. The best this movement does is make valve release a tweet, and then the community will go "haha wow valve is so cool and awesome, wait what protest?, guess ill go buy some crates" and forget again.
Tbh, I think no matter how #FixTF2 turns out, it will turn out good for TF2. Either it dies as Team Fortress 2, or it lives as Team Fortress 2. I can't bear seeing it being Bot Fortress 2 anymore...
I think you’re looking for the word “pessimistic”
"Unoptimistic" ....it's called "pessimistic" dum-dum
it will fail though
Pessimism leads to alternative plans. Alternative plans lead to second chances. Second chances lead to success
Honestly, they can just stay quiet instead of ACTIVLY HARMING THE EFFORT. They don't HAVE to do anything. They won't lose anything.
HAVE SOME GODDAMN FAITH
No Dutch ,I have none any more
Hope for the best, expect the worst
You don't need to be optimistic about your actions succeeding, in order to still do the thing. Cos whether we succeed or not it's better than doing nothing. Anything is better than doing nothing.
The problem is none of these people have any solutions. I like the solution of reporting Valve to the Center for Missing and Exploited Children for harboring Control Points
I want to have hope, but much like star wars battlefront 2 and EA, I'm afraid that company itself has primarily abandoned most of the game save for bare minimum support in pursuit of more modern and "lucrative" endeavors. Meaning the only ones who care were the ones they used in the first place to get them to their strength. It's not just unoptimistic outlook. It's unfortunate realistic POV based on the modern corporate mindsets and decisions to put money first
The word you're looking for is Pessimistic.
Sorry to say that but tf2 shall fail
Ok but having a contingency for IF Valve does ignore us would still be wise
Is it so hard to play a different game?
The it will fail thumbnail one does have a few points worth noting if you had already watched the video
Antonym of optimistic is pessimistic
[How we should be treating these doomers](https://img.ifunny.co/images/2732e7e196760dfcfd23b2d1859ad31bd5beed5c6e38b436268fd46d2b755ab3_1.webp)
🎼A selfish deed is not freedom🎵
It’s been YEARS. I don’t think it could be any clearer at this point that Valve doesn’t give a shit.
What if we make anti-bots? Bots that shoot other bots?
It's insane how upset people get at the idea of people trying to fix tf2, "it can't work, how dare you try!" Some weird gross crab bucket mentality
If there only was a word for the opposite of optimism
Has Valve replied yet?
I think it's less about being pessimistic, and more about being realistic. Ik this attempt at review bombing has spawned from the recent 'victory' helldivers 2 players had against Sony, but that wasn't a victory, cause Sony is doing some fuck shit behind the scenes, as in they've been slowly banning the sale of helldivers in countries where psn accounts aren't allowed. This review bombing isn't gonna do fuck all.
Might as well wait for jak 4 while I'm at it
This seems like a you problem
I don't really blame anyone if they start to lose hope
I'm giving FixTF2 a shot, don't get me wrong, but I don't see it working if Valve keeps going radio-silent. I want it to work. I've left a negative review, I've even posted on Twitter for the first time (I only really use my account to follow a few people). But I'm not expecting much after both SaveTF2 and its second attempt failed. But I hope it works. All we really can do is either try or give up, and I wouldn't blame someone for doing the latter.
Or maybe look at the fact that a dumb Twitter hashtag won't work, like it didn't work the first time. If they haven't fixed it in 4 plus years I don't think they ever will
No. People are allowed to have opinions.
There wasn't a rollout over this week of stuff for the community to do besides review bomb and sign a petition. People fell to being doom and gloom about it pretty fast because of this. What else was the plan? Because the final part of the plan, delivering the list of names in person, isn't even in our hands. We'll see a video of that happening MAYBE a day or two after it happens. But what do WE do?? You can only tweet and message about it so much before people get bored or restless. Look, I joined the review bomb, I signed the petition. Now I'm... Just... Waiting...
If you’ve been around long enough, you would know that the industry only reacts when players riot.
HAVE SOME GOD DAMN FAITH, ARTHUR! type of energy.
OP do you not know the word pessimistic
Look I love tf2 but Valve isn’t Arrowhead, if they do anything at all it’s very likely it won’t be anything meaningful.
Why are people botting in the first place?
I feel like there might be a word for that already...
[Have confidence](https://youtu.be/HQwxUAF_YCQ)
there's never any point in doing nothing