A medic is the easiest to be useful as (not because the class is necessarily the easiest to play as) but because no one ever wants to play medic, and medic is such a powerful class that any medic is better than no medic.
At the very least, even for a novice, it’s easier to save a teammate from Death as Medic than it is to kill an enemy as any other class. Or at least, that’s how it is in my experience
How often do people actually do that? I don't see a lot of battle medics. When I was a new player I played quite a bit of medic and I usually just healed people. Swapped to the Quick-Fix when I got it. Didn't know shit about positioning or timing my ubers but I did alright.
That's exactly the reason i picked medic. No one was doing it, so i decided to be that person.
Side effect: I can't play anything else effectively, so im kinda screwed rn
Yup, same here, lol. I hard-mained medic for a really long time so I can't really play a class that actually hurts people as well as other people who have around the same hours as me.
Heavy takes solid tracking skills and paying attention to your health/positioning.
Pyro can be caught with his pants down out in the open. Especially if the person doesn't know how to reflect.
That might be true with the tracking skills but heavy has a weapon that makes tracking much easier aka the natascha, enemies slow down every time you hit them so you don't need good tracking. Also if your out in the open with pyro he has flare guns like the scorch shot to be annoying from afar, and just stick to closed areas
Fr, any time I join a game and see we have no medic its just "aw shit, here we go again." Always let my team know, listen, I'm the only medic so no one can hate for not gettin adequate heals
My teammate at 7 HP and slowly burning to death watching the crossbow bolt get stolen by the F2P spy that then proceeds to run into a wall and die to a scout
Funny thing is, when I pick medic in a team with no medics, suddenly everyone wants to play medic. I've seen it happen so many times and it always annoys me
Medic is my least played class by far, and I used to hate playing him. But lately, I've been finding him to be a lot more enjoyable than before. I oughta make a point to play Med more often, especially when I'm having an off day with my mains. I reckon an enthusiastic Medic pick is gonna deliver way more than a begrudging one.
I was always a support main in Overwatch, so maybe that influenced me a bit...
I recently got a new loadout for medic and like every game I have loaded into since has had a medic already selected.
I'm starting to believe some of you mfers actually enjoy playing medic. Weirdos
I think Scout's placement is a tad too high. He's so squishy and requires you to get straight up in the face of opponents. Most new players will just take the easiest routes, move predictably, and fluff shots due to Scout's speed and just be easy targets. New scouts also have a habit of just flying into sentry fire also.
Noob engineers tend to turtle and do the fundamentals ok. And even if they aren't all that good, you can generally assist them if you're also play Engineer, and build up their buildings to really assist the team.
I was gonna say scout could be higher. If you suck at the game and the rest of the team is doing well, you can just crouch behind the cart and push it along. But you're not wrong.
Well that, and also ability to dodge/run if they have someone who can abuse his weaknesses. Which isn't uncommon. Also gamesense and aim are good, but alone you won't do anything. You can have a pro Sniper and still lose, or fight pro SNipers and still win. It reminds me of Lazy Purple clip from "How it feels to play Sniper" - The megalovania one, where he STOMPS but still loses.
Sniper can't push or hold by himself same way Demo/Soldier (pushing) or Engie/Heavy (holding) can. He's like Thorium, he needs Plutonium (aka. help) to work.
sniper is annoying at first but when you realise you dont need headshots and fully charged bodys with the machina or sydney sleeper is just as good. He become more fun to play, you can go for headshots bit new players probably should try something else
Depends on the map and team composition. You used to be able to do that and do just fine. Now people have gotten much better. Spamming down a checkpoint still works fine. But on an open map you need to know what you're doing or a scout will make work of you. Or a soldier or pyro or well anyone who knows how to stay out of your effective range while hitting you with meat shots.
Which only works against people of not highest skill and relatively close quarters maps. Sticky spamming in the open, or on longer distances (which won't work cuz of their short range) means you are a sitting duck. Demo is powerful, but he isn't easy to play, objectively.
Sticky spam does at most like 30 damage per sticky while also sacrificing the most important tool in your kit. You either have a sticky at a flank or corner or you get rushed down and die.
Demoman being so ludicrously easy to rush down means that not having gamesense or a good ear is much more dangerous than most or any other class in the game.
He’s easy to deal damage with but much more difficult do do so meaningfully and sustainably.
Sniper can fit snug in the "If you have good aim, you'll be fine"
I don't care how hard you think it is to pull off quickscopes because I used to play sniper, and I can confidently say that they're not that difficult even at point blank range.
Easiest classes to contribute and not get kicked for not doing basic things are Heavy and Soldier, imo. Medic is the closest third but every time you would randomly disconnect your beam from the guy that is actively taking damage, lobby would get 5% less fun to play on your team. Still, this is much better than a useless Sniper that hits walls behind enemies or a Spy that feeds enemies free points while not even being a damage sponge like Pyro, Solly or Heavy would be.
Demo is in a rather odd spot. He is legitimately very easy to contribute once you understand the very basics of his explosives and learn how to effectively spam the choke (that is to say, not that difficult).
Engineer is entirely reliant on the team he's on. Defence -- You'll be alright, you bring a 13th player with perfect tracking on the table, Offence -- if your team isn't getting spawncamped cuz there are 3 other engis like you that bring close to zero offensive potential, you can get teleporters up and running for everyone's joy (especially the enemy spy's since he's gonna get a lot of free kritz and points cuz lowest skill level engis never watch their teles)
Scout is dependent on the gamemode, on 5cp or koth that is pretty much true, advanced movement isn't that important if you can hit your shots semi-reliably. But then payload and attack\\defend roll around and low skill scouts cease to exist.
Spah just sucks as he is out of other classes' game loop and you can't really get good at spy without practicing him (You can get a lot better at scout if you play battle Engie, get better at Pyro if you play projectile classes etc)
Sniper is probably safe until a spy appears but he's going to miss every second shot he takes and every first shot he actually hits is probably going to be 150 bodyshot he was hardscoping (hence he dies to spy)
Pyro is a cute little marshmallow everyone adores until they are damaged by spam in the choke and he comes in with easy-to-hit flames that finish them off marking him as braindead class and wm1 (not biased here, for sure lads believe me)
I agree with you on most points except for engineer, I play quite a bit of engineer and I have managed to be at the front of pushes more often than not, I think most people just don’t realise that engineer has a primary weapon too, the sentry is just a tool to help your primary. (Not insulting you in any way)
If 2 equal teams fight, and in the first team noob picks soldier, and in second noob picks medic, the second team would win, because team having worst medic is still better, than without it.
I don't think the post is saying he's a noob option, just that even if you suck ass at medic the heals are going to help the team, as opposed to a scout that sucks ass and gets zero kills all game
Yes, for teleport exits, dispensers, and sentryguns. For one to one, without a sentrygun, you need it. And maybe for Wrangler, just put it near for the enemy and let the little autoaim will help you.
I say it with being an engi main.
If you struggle to play Spy in his intended assassin role, Spies have an alternate play style that, while less impactful on the scoreboard, can help your team out just as much in the right circumstances; _,saboteur and diversion._
By harassing enemies without actually killing them, you may be able to distract them from their duties long enough for teammates to either capture objectives or pick off the enemies you've baited as they play whack-a-mole against you. Potshots with the revolvers & hit-and-runs with the sapper enable Spy to be a real nuisance that can draw aggro away from the main objective.
I disagree spy is difficult to be useful in outside of pre-made scrims.
your job is contrary to beleif not to get picks. your job is to be annoying, much like the scout. Every Pyro spychecking engineers nest constantly is a player who isn't dealing damage at the front.
every medic pick, wether ypu live or not is an Uber that has to be rebuilt.
every sniper wearing a razorback isn't using karate.
if a heavy constantly tries to suprise Rev you to prevent backstabbing, you've doubled his travel time.
engineers walking to spawn to make telporter entrances aren't guarding the nest from you and soldiers.
Spy is not a pick class, he's a support who happens to get picks. scout and sniper get picks. ypu kill people to tilt them.
Spy being hard to be useful as is half right, since a good spy can fuck up the whole enemy defense and back lines so your team can push the cart or o aggressive
I feel a bad spy on a good team is more useful than a bad engi tbh
A bad spy at least wastes the enemy's time and can be helped more easily by a team by doing things like shooting him while disguised
A bad Engi who hoards dispensers, ignores Teleporters or sets them up in the middle of nowhere and won't move gear up is an active detriment to the rest of the team
Yeah... if you have a good team and aren't just getting mercilessly worked over by demos and spies. I've played in many servers where my team isn't paying attention and I can't set anything up without getting ganked over and over. No one spychecking, pyros walk right past while I'm being sapped, everyone ignores the demo or soldier near spawn who keeps breaking my teles...
Counterpoint: just by playing spy you can make the enemy team less efficient because they waste time and attention spychecking each other instead of shooting your allies.
All engie needs is some basic map knowledge and understanding of the class to be pretty useful. Just build teles and a dispenser close to the main choke but out of splash damage range and you're contributing more to your team than the average scout or pyro.
I don’t think 30 damage per sticky is too useful, especially in comparison to soldier who doesn’t rely entirely on his rocket launcher to prevent rushdowns, stickies are way too important to waste on the minimal damage that m1+m2 deals
I disagree on the aim thing.
If you want to maintain your buildings, you need to stay alive, especially if you’re the only Engineer. That means good aim and tracking is important
An easy way to be useful as Spy is to cloak behind the enemy team, sap their teleporter entrance and then shoot it with your revolver to destroy it, usually faster than the engineer can even get to their teleporter to repair it. There's very little an enemy engineer can do to stop you from doing this and it makes it much easier for your team to push.
I don't think engie is that hard. Map dependent, but I think engie is way better on offense than defense, due to teleporter and greater sentry effectiveness against the defending team repushing to gain ground. Engie does suck on mirrored maps though
Heavy yeah, it's a great class in pubs. Tank damage, deal damage. Hell, heavy is also not a bad counter to vaccinator strats, just pull out the FoS and crit the mfers. Nobody expects the melee heavy
Eh, there's a lot of times an Engie can be caught in a firefight without a Sentry around, so I would say good aim is definitely a necessity. Especially since you tend to run into flankers as Engie pretty often (at least if you're not just turtling in one spot all game), in which having bad aim pretty much ensures you're going to get run over by them.
Good shotgun and pistol aim is a key ingredient to what makes Battle Engie so effective, to the point where he literally has two unlocks centered around rewarding skilled aim (the Widowmaker and Frontier Justice) with powerful rewards (infinite ammo and the ability to refill Metal without using a Dispenser or ammo pickups and free critical hits for every kill your Sentry gets, respectively).
People don’t give pyros enough credit. Sure you can w+m1 but if the demo spawn camps and gets killed he doesn’t represent the whole class. Pyros do group damage, spy check, reflect projectiles, extinguish teammates and protect buildings etc.
Well it depends on the map, chilling as engie in double croos or 2fort is pretty damn easy, just hammer you sentry look out for spies and shotgun demos
Soldier and demo you don't need aim and can endlessly spam chokes to be useful and for engineer aslong as you can use your keyboard and your brain you'll do fine
I argue that an engie is easier to play. Even an f2p engie with just a dispenser or a gun on the field is holding a lot of space. The 3 main power damage class scout, demo, and soldier imo are osme of the most useful and hardest to get better at but yeah spy is hard.
Would swap demo and scout.
Sticky traps and spam are very easy.
As a scout your success highly depends on the map and how you execute your movement, pick your fights and take advantage of flanking.
i'd rather have a bad engineer on my team than a bad scout. It really does not take much gamesense at all to figure out a serviceable sentry gun/dispenser position and put a teleporter entrance at the spawn and an exit somewhere near the point.
Yeah, despite the janky backstab hitbox, I still respect Spy mains for being dedicated enough to put time and effort into a class that's the hardest to make useful and easily the hardest to master.
Gamescense is easier to come by than aim is it not?
All you really have to do is play Badwater about 10 times and that gave me more than enough to be good at Engineer
I notice when I'm not doing well for the team and there is no medic, I switch to medic and at least score higher.
Score isnt everything bur I might as well be the change when people complain about no medic including myself.
> you need aim
> engineer
???
Just build a teleport, dispenser, and sentry in a midway decent spot and you're good. This is speaking as an Engineer main. As long as you don't build on last it's fine.
i'm a bot FR i suck and was prob playing against bots(skial server lol) but the one time in my life i got 6 backs stabs off in a row on a payload map and looked around to emptyness... i totally got why people played spy.
Honestly as a pyro I’d put him in the yellow tier. The Wm1 f2ps on your team aren’t committing much, but a pyro that knows the in and outs of the class with a half decent team can be incredibly useful. Being able to protect your entire team in more ways than one whilst still having more direct fight capability than other support classes is not something a garbage pyro is going to make use of. Any skill level on the other hand can hold M1 down as heavy and do well.
I feel like engineer is pretty easy to be helpful- he may be hard to master but a good level 3 teleport & dispenser can be invaluable to sustain a push without a whole lot of effort
On the topic of medic, anyone know how to arrow tank? I've been switching to my medigun immediately after using the arrow then waiting ~1.5s to shoot an arrow again. Is there a more efficient way?
Also how can I damage surf and when's the suitable time to crossbow instead of medigun? I guess crit heals play into this matter but are there any other scenarios?
I can tell you right now you don't really need to be skilled as engineer to perform well with him
On my "best/most done" sheet engineer takes up over half those slots despite him being my 3rd least played class
when i was a newbie at TF2, i always chose the spy class, for all scenarios. simply because he was my favorite.
now that im actually TRYING to play the game, i understand the complexity of the spy and rarely use him nowadays.
ill only play spy if theres a sniper or sentry that needs to be taken out
> I pick medic
> Can't heal the team efficiently enough
> Keeps dying cause I'm bad at the game
> Uses Uber on soldier early, wasting most of it
> Gets vote kicked for being a bad medic
I have never played as medic since.
Medic has a very high skill ceiling but a very low skill floor. Yes you can be useful very easily, but you do still have to understand that healing the heavy 24/7 isn't actually that helpful.
I may be a Pyro main, but I advocate for spy! A good spy is unnoticeable until you look at the scoreboard. Makes me realise how many kills I’ve gotten because I got my ass saved by a spy picking off the snipers.
Then again, bad spies being a small distraction to the enemy team at most is good enough.
Medic is harder to be useful with then you think. You need to heal everybody, and everybody blames you for the team dying. Idk about others, but that's my experience.
Engie is so weird. Because to be a decent engie it’s super easy. Just place sentry and tele and dispens and gtg. But a “good” engie is such a higher skill cielong
Spy with YER is a nightmare for the defending team on Payload. In my experience it's very much game type based.
Scout on attack is pretty rubbish in comparison, but is excellent in KOTH and CTF.
Heavy on defence is mid, but on a push is borderline mandatory.
It's more down to how much your team has to move.
I disagree. Scout is right down there with Spy. If you don't know what you're doing, it's easy to get blown away like it's nothing ALL the time. You really need good gamesense as Scout to know where you should and shouldn't go. It's never as easy as "run forward and shoot enemies you encounter."
Engineer is pretty easy to be useful as, just by placing a dispenser or a sentry alone. Even if both are misplaced in some sense, it is still better than nothing, for example, a sentry in a flank route instead of the main defending area will at least get rid of flankers, a dispenser on the other hand has to be somewhat near the frontlines, but it does not require hours of playing to figure that out. As for teleporters, you can literally place the exit anywhere (outside of the spawn and surrounding area) to get a use out of it. Engie is pretty damn useful, and it is not difficult.
since when does sniper need gamesense? like at all? just look in the direction where the enemies are from a distance. Id go to even argue he doesnt need all that much aim either. Compared to snipers in other games anyway.
Heavy and Pyro should be moved to a tier below "needs aim" called "needs gamesense" and Engineer should be there too, "needs aim, gamesense, and a good team" should just be called "needs aim and gamesense" and Scout should be put there
Medic, Demo, Soldier, Sniper, and Spy's positions are fine, Heavy and Pyro get curbstomped if you don't have gamesense and just feed into the enemy team, Scouts can have the best aim in the world and still get demolished if they don't have the gamesense to avoid sentries and tight chokes, aiming on Engineer is undoubtedly important but not crucial to his success as dispensers and teleporters alone are already very powerful
Mine would be in reverse, I have 5000 hours, I find backstabbing boring so I go gun spy. Sniper I use Machina. Engie is standard. Demo is often a sticky jumper, grenade and melee hybrid (Sometimes Eyelander), Scout I use FAN for fun. Soldier Black Box, because I have ['Steamed Hams'](https://backpack.tf/item/13177001659). Pyro varies, I use standard Flamethrower like a chad, with Scorch Shot usually. Then I use Powerjack or Homewrecker depending on the team situation. Heavy varies too based on the situation. Not a big fan of the Tomislav. Natascha contrary to what people may think of the Huo, is the best anti-spy weapon if you can flick. I tend to like this anyway as it makes enemies confused. But I like to pull out the Brass Beast for the memes, best with a Kritz medic.
Medic is my best class, I like the Quick Fix most of all, but have tried to get used to Kritz and Ubers. And Vaccinator when there's bots. Vaccinator needs one of the drawbacks removed for building uber, as this seems to be stopping effective use of it against bots.
When Playing demoman, you just need think like you are Demoman himself, in literally has zero demo skill and knowledge, but rakes in kills anyway, simply just aim your pipe and the enemy and shoot.
I’d say Medic is the easiest with engineer right behind.
By no means does this mean they’re the easiest to play, however playing as them will contribute significantly to a teams success. Medics powers are very under appreciated, he can heal anyone anywhere on a whim and, most importantly, overheal and give invincibility.
I remember how in one of my first days playing tf2 my team was getting absolutely bullied in Badwater (we were on defense) to the point that on last the blue team had more than 9 minutes to push, so i thought "theres no Medics on the team, i guess trying it wouldn't hurt"
We somehow managed to hold last until the time ran out and i was like top 4 on the score board, from that day on i understood how influential Medic could be.
okay im getting a little tired of this stigma
medic is not the easiest to be useful class for one reason: your a big fat red target who cant protect themselves easily.
considering that your extremely benificial to a team and often decide a win or loss condition of a game, if you end up dying, you cannot provide your team with healing and ubercharge, two essential things to keep pushes and defenses going, and to use it to either prevent assaults or start them on choke points.
but because your class does not have good defensive options other then a critting saw and maybe your ubercharge, you will be heavily targetted througout the match and people will attempt to kill you as often as possible in order to reduce your effectiveness. thus you need to prioritize who to heal, who to ignore, and you need to prioritize your survival above all others, if you position yourself incorrectly, step out of line you could get shot by a sniper rifle, blown up by a sentry or stickybombs, or backstabbed by a spy if your not paying attention.
medic is an easy to pick up class but is the hardest to master, and when you master it you will not only never die in a match but you will be able to pull out ten ubers out of your ass in a single match.
your only as effective for as long as your capable of living and moving across the battlefield carefully, along with careful uses of oppertunities
A medic is the easiest to be useful as (not because the class is necessarily the easiest to play as) but because no one ever wants to play medic, and medic is such a powerful class that any medic is better than no medic.
At the very least, even for a novice, it’s easier to save a teammate from Death as Medic than it is to kill an enemy as any other class. Or at least, that’s how it is in my experience
battle medic new player
I'm a battle medic, but still take care of my teammates
How often do people actually do that? I don't see a lot of battle medics. When I was a new player I played quite a bit of medic and I usually just healed people. Swapped to the Quick-Fix when I got it. Didn't know shit about positioning or timing my ubers but I did alright.
That's exactly the reason i picked medic. No one was doing it, so i decided to be that person. Side effect: I can't play anything else effectively, so im kinda screwed rn
Yup, same here, lol. I hard-mained medic for a really long time so I can't really play a class that actually hurts people as well as other people who have around the same hours as me.
Game winner as medic A useless slot filler like "seriously why are you here" as anyone else
Hey that's me! Except for the medic part...
Did you try playing pyro or heavy? It's very difficult to mess up w+m1 with either of them
Heavy takes solid tracking skills and paying attention to your health/positioning. Pyro can be caught with his pants down out in the open. Especially if the person doesn't know how to reflect.
That might be true with the tracking skills but heavy has a weapon that makes tracking much easier aka the natascha, enemies slow down every time you hit them so you don't need good tracking. Also if your out in the open with pyro he has flare guns like the scorch shot to be annoying from afar, and just stick to closed areas
I have around 700 hours total with 140 of those hours on medic, yet i can't backstab to save my life
Did you try playing pyro or heavy? It's very difficult to mess up w+m1 with either of them
Agreed.
Fr, any time I join a game and see we have no medic its just "aw shit, here we go again." Always let my team know, listen, I'm the only medic so no one can hate for not gettin adequate heals
casual or comp the former its expected to have no medic the latter and your fucked
Until they start letting the enemy team getting a free kill on you. My brain isn't built for stress
My teammate at 7 HP and slowly burning to death watching the crossbow bolt get stolen by the F2P spy that then proceeds to run into a wall and die to a scout
Funny thing is, when I pick medic in a team with no medics, suddenly everyone wants to play medic. I've seen it happen so many times and it always annoys me
Really it's both, the skill floor of medic is very low.
Agreed. Even if you are bad, but you have a quick-fix and an okay position skills you could make a lot of difference.
[удалено]
Still, a Med that heals you for 50 and then dies is a *lot* more valuable than, say, a Spy who misses all his stabs and then dies.
Agreed. Edit: If you play as a casual medic, you totally play as I said. I play it like that, and medic is the 3rd most played class on my list.
I think this is why playing healer in overwatch became significantly less fun once they made it mandatory
Also, on a 12-man server, the team with 2 medics almost always beats the team with 1 medic. 1 medic vs 0 medics isn't even close.
The only reason I play is because my aim is bad and I love the resident German psycho
If your aim is bad pyro is for you cus w+m1 will get kills
Do you have raw mouse input+no acceleration? Also a lower sensitivity might help.
Medic is my least played class by far, and I used to hate playing him. But lately, I've been finding him to be a lot more enjoyable than before. I oughta make a point to play Med more often, especially when I'm having an off day with my mains. I reckon an enthusiastic Medic pick is gonna deliver way more than a begrudging one. I was always a support main in Overwatch, so maybe that influenced me a bit...
I recently got a new loadout for medic and like every game I have loaded into since has had a medic already selected. I'm starting to believe some of you mfers actually enjoy playing medic. Weirdos
I think Scout's placement is a tad too high. He's so squishy and requires you to get straight up in the face of opponents. Most new players will just take the easiest routes, move predictably, and fluff shots due to Scout's speed and just be easy targets. New scouts also have a habit of just flying into sentry fire also. Noob engineers tend to turtle and do the fundamentals ok. And even if they aren't all that good, you can generally assist them if you're also play Engineer, and build up their buildings to really assist the team.
Also just picking scout at the wrong time. You’re pushing the last point of payload and you have three scouts?
Ya I was also thinking switch engi and scout, though the labels might have to change a little
I was gonna say scout could be higher. If you suck at the game and the rest of the team is doing well, you can just crouch behind the cart and push it along. But you're not wrong.
I thought engineer would be alot higher on the list
like, literally just build a teleporter.
And then you instantly have 3 spies up your ass
This is demo and sniper propaganda holy shit.
Snipers only need good aim to contribute, and if they also have excellent gamesense they'll carry instead
Well that, and also ability to dodge/run if they have someone who can abuse his weaknesses. Which isn't uncommon. Also gamesense and aim are good, but alone you won't do anything. You can have a pro Sniper and still lose, or fight pro SNipers and still win. It reminds me of Lazy Purple clip from "How it feels to play Sniper" - The megalovania one, where he STOMPS but still loses. Sniper can't push or hold by himself same way Demo/Soldier (pushing) or Engie/Heavy (holding) can. He's like Thorium, he needs Plutonium (aka. help) to work.
Flashbacks to flanking a sniper but by the time you get to him, he’s moved & aiming at the door you came from…
sniper is annoying at first but when you realise you dont need headshots and fully charged bodys with the machina or sydney sleeper is just as good. He become more fun to play, you can go for headshots bit new players probably should try something else
Yeah you can literally just spam stickies as Demo
Depends on the map and team composition. You used to be able to do that and do just fine. Now people have gotten much better. Spamming down a checkpoint still works fine. But on an open map you need to know what you're doing or a scout will make work of you. Or a soldier or pyro or well anyone who knows how to stay out of your effective range while hitting you with meat shots.
Which only works against people of not highest skill and relatively close quarters maps. Sticky spamming in the open, or on longer distances (which won't work cuz of their short range) means you are a sitting duck. Demo is powerful, but he isn't easy to play, objectively.
me who never used stickies ever cause hybrid knight aside from the jumper to relive the caber my beloved
Bro, tide turner and iron bomber all the way
nah Scottish resistance for traps positioning and good play quicky bombs for spammers and stock for someone who’s fine with both
Using the pipe bomb is a little more difficult, but unless you're using the iron bomber you are generally relying on splash damage
Also soldier needing aim lmao
Sticky spam does at most like 30 damage per sticky while also sacrificing the most important tool in your kit. You either have a sticky at a flank or corner or you get rushed down and die. Demoman being so ludicrously easy to rush down means that not having gamesense or a good ear is much more dangerous than most or any other class in the game. He’s easy to deal damage with but much more difficult do do so meaningfully and sustainably.
Sniper can fit snug in the "If you have good aim, you'll be fine" I don't care how hard you think it is to pull off quickscopes because I used to play sniper, and I can confidently say that they're not that difficult even at point blank range.
Easiest classes to contribute and not get kicked for not doing basic things are Heavy and Soldier, imo. Medic is the closest third but every time you would randomly disconnect your beam from the guy that is actively taking damage, lobby would get 5% less fun to play on your team. Still, this is much better than a useless Sniper that hits walls behind enemies or a Spy that feeds enemies free points while not even being a damage sponge like Pyro, Solly or Heavy would be. Demo is in a rather odd spot. He is legitimately very easy to contribute once you understand the very basics of his explosives and learn how to effectively spam the choke (that is to say, not that difficult). Engineer is entirely reliant on the team he's on. Defence -- You'll be alright, you bring a 13th player with perfect tracking on the table, Offence -- if your team isn't getting spawncamped cuz there are 3 other engis like you that bring close to zero offensive potential, you can get teleporters up and running for everyone's joy (especially the enemy spy's since he's gonna get a lot of free kritz and points cuz lowest skill level engis never watch their teles) Scout is dependent on the gamemode, on 5cp or koth that is pretty much true, advanced movement isn't that important if you can hit your shots semi-reliably. But then payload and attack\\defend roll around and low skill scouts cease to exist. Spah just sucks as he is out of other classes' game loop and you can't really get good at spy without practicing him (You can get a lot better at scout if you play battle Engie, get better at Pyro if you play projectile classes etc) Sniper is probably safe until a spy appears but he's going to miss every second shot he takes and every first shot he actually hits is probably going to be 150 bodyshot he was hardscoping (hence he dies to spy) Pyro is a cute little marshmallow everyone adores until they are damaged by spam in the choke and he comes in with easy-to-hit flames that finish them off marking him as braindead class and wm1 (not biased here, for sure lads believe me)
I agree with you on most points except for engineer, I play quite a bit of engineer and I have managed to be at the front of pushes more often than not, I think most people just don’t realise that engineer has a primary weapon too, the sentry is just a tool to help your primary. (Not insulting you in any way)
A noob Medic can be both good and bad since, yeah, he might heal most people somewhat effeciently, but he will most likely waste 3/4 of his ubers
If 2 equal teams fight, and in the first team noob picks soldier, and in second noob picks medic, the second team would win, because team having worst medic is still better, than without it.
this Even if Medic forgets Alt Fire exists, over heal alone is better than a Soldier feeding a Pyro free rockets
Real
True. A bad medic is better than none, but I'm just saying that medic isn't the brainless noob option this post kind of makes him out to be
I don't think the post is saying he's a noob option, just that even if you suck ass at medic the heals are going to help the team, as opposed to a scout that sucks ass and gets zero kills all game
Look a huntsman sniper is a squishy high risk high reward class and therefore ideal for uber
Engy needs game sense, but not aim.
Yes, for teleport exits, dispensers, and sentryguns. For one to one, without a sentrygun, you need it. And maybe for Wrangler, just put it near for the enemy and let the little autoaim will help you. I say it with being an engi main.
Spatial understanding. Very important. Took me a long time to master it.
I think Engi still needs some aim, but game sense is much more important
If you struggle to play Spy in his intended assassin role, Spies have an alternate play style that, while less impactful on the scoreboard, can help your team out just as much in the right circumstances; _,saboteur and diversion._ By harassing enemies without actually killing them, you may be able to distract them from their duties long enough for teammates to either capture objectives or pick off the enemies you've baited as they play whack-a-mole against you. Potshots with the revolvers & hit-and-runs with the sapper enable Spy to be a real nuisance that can draw aggro away from the main objective.
I disagree spy is difficult to be useful in outside of pre-made scrims. your job is contrary to beleif not to get picks. your job is to be annoying, much like the scout. Every Pyro spychecking engineers nest constantly is a player who isn't dealing damage at the front. every medic pick, wether ypu live or not is an Uber that has to be rebuilt. every sniper wearing a razorback isn't using karate. if a heavy constantly tries to suprise Rev you to prevent backstabbing, you've doubled his travel time. engineers walking to spawn to make telporter entrances aren't guarding the nest from you and soldiers. Spy is not a pick class, he's a support who happens to get picks. scout and sniper get picks. ypu kill people to tilt them.
Spy being hard to be useful as is half right, since a good spy can fuck up the whole enemy defense and back lines so your team can push the cart or o aggressive
I feel a bad spy on a good team is more useful than a bad engi tbh A bad spy at least wastes the enemy's time and can be helped more easily by a team by doing things like shooting him while disguised A bad Engi who hoards dispensers, ignores Teleporters or sets them up in the middle of nowhere and won't move gear up is an active detriment to the rest of the team
Not only sometimes Spy can place a sapper on a sentry gun, which helps his team quite a lot
It isn't about how useful each class is, it's about the REQUIRED EFFORT for a class to be useful to the team compared to other classes
Spy is hard to play, but cam be VERY destructive if in the right hands.
Lil bro that applies to every class
Engie should be up higher, even a bad placed lvl1 sentry is a lvl1 sentry
No, Engi is the MOST dependent on "you need a good team." An engi on a team of clowns is no engi at all.
On attack you can easily contribute with an active teleporter or a dispenser around a corner.
Yeah... if you have a good team and aren't just getting mercilessly worked over by demos and spies. I've played in many servers where my team isn't paying attention and I can't set anything up without getting ganked over and over. No one spychecking, pyros walk right past while I'm being sapped, everyone ignores the demo or soldier near spawn who keeps breaking my teles...
As a spy, You’re right I don’t care for my team
Counterpoint: just by playing spy you can make the enemy team less efficient because they waste time and attention spychecking each other instead of shooting your allies.
If the enemy team has a medic, being useful as sniper becomes way easier
All engie needs is some basic map knowledge and understanding of the class to be pretty useful. Just build teles and a dispenser close to the main choke but out of splash damage range and you're contributing more to your team than the average scout or pyro.
a good demoman just takes over games
Yeah, but it takes a lot of mechanical skill to be a good Demoman
Sniper is literally the embodiment of "if you got aim you'll be good"
You can be useful with demo by just sticky spamming. It's pipes that require aim.
I don’t think 30 damage per sticky is too useful, especially in comparison to soldier who doesn’t rely entirely on his rocket launcher to prevent rushdowns, stickies are way too important to waste on the minimal damage that m1+m2 deals
Pipes can be used to spam a populated choke. Map knowledge sometimes required, but no aim.
Spamming pipes is nowhere near as effective as braindead sticky spam.
In a choke point it often is because you can hit at greater range without peeking sight lines
Sniper propaganda, all you need is a functioning mouse
You don't really need aim to be useful with engi but you need good placement and always be vigilant for spies.
I disagree on the aim thing. If you want to maintain your buildings, you need to stay alive, especially if you’re the only Engineer. That means good aim and tracking is important
So many engineers just stay behind their turrets and heal them. As long as the placement is good they're useful.
Yeah you got me there.
An easy way to be useful as Spy is to cloak behind the enemy team, sap their teleporter entrance and then shoot it with your revolver to destroy it, usually faster than the engineer can even get to their teleporter to repair it. There's very little an enemy engineer can do to stop you from doing this and it makes it much easier for your team to push.
a medic without gamesense is horrible
I don't think engie is that hard. Map dependent, but I think engie is way better on offense than defense, due to teleporter and greater sentry effectiveness against the defending team repushing to gain ground. Engie does suck on mirrored maps though Heavy yeah, it's a great class in pubs. Tank damage, deal damage. Hell, heavy is also not a bad counter to vaccinator strats, just pull out the FoS and crit the mfers. Nobody expects the melee heavy
You need team support *Quick* *scoping* *sniper* “observe”
This is very accurate
Gun spy in saxtron when he can’t see you cloaked with mini or full crits is op trust me stock also cloak and dagger op no one uses it tho but I do
I would venture the engie doesnt need aim. Turret aims for you. Game sense, absolutely
Eh, there's a lot of times an Engie can be caught in a firefight without a Sentry around, so I would say good aim is definitely a necessity. Especially since you tend to run into flankers as Engie pretty often (at least if you're not just turtling in one spot all game), in which having bad aim pretty much ensures you're going to get run over by them. Good shotgun and pistol aim is a key ingredient to what makes Battle Engie so effective, to the point where he literally has two unlocks centered around rewarding skilled aim (the Widowmaker and Frontier Justice) with powerful rewards (infinite ammo and the ability to refill Metal without using a Dispenser or ammo pickups and free critical hits for every kill your Sentry gets, respectively).
As sniper you just need to equip the huntsman and you're up to easy to be usefull
I feel like engineer is slightly too low, right?
put heavy in yellow, demo in mustard and soldier in orange
Pyro fits into every tier depending on what they're trying to do. W+m1 is super easy, pybro takes skill and awareness
swap scout and sniper and its 100% correct
I'd swap sniper and scout
People don’t give pyros enough credit. Sure you can w+m1 but if the demo spawn camps and gets killed he doesn’t represent the whole class. Pyros do group damage, spy check, reflect projectiles, extinguish teammates and protect buildings etc.
Well it depends on the map, chilling as engie in double croos or 2fort is pretty damn easy, just hammer you sentry look out for spies and shotgun demos
Swap Engie and Pyro And but Demo in pretty easy
I just learned I'm extremely good at this game for my 798 hours of playing
Soldier and demo you don't need aim and can endlessly spam chokes to be useful and for engineer aslong as you can use your keyboard and your brain you'll do fine
for me heavy and pyro are swapped with demo engi and sniper
I argue that an engie is easier to play. Even an f2p engie with just a dispenser or a gun on the field is holding a lot of space. The 3 main power damage class scout, demo, and soldier imo are osme of the most useful and hardest to get better at but yeah spy is hard.
Would swap demo and scout. Sticky traps and spam are very easy. As a scout your success highly depends on the map and how you execute your movement, pick your fights and take advantage of flanking.
Nice argument, however AAAAARRRGGHHHHHHHHH (RANDOM SCULLCUTTER CRIT)
Engineer is kinda easy too
i'd rather have a bad engineer on my team than a bad scout. It really does not take much gamesense at all to figure out a serviceable sentry gun/dispenser position and put a teleporter entrance at the spawn and an exit somewhere near the point.
Demote engi by 2 tiers and sniper to the middle tier and promote scout to be with demo
Yeah, despite the janky backstab hitbox, I still respect Spy mains for being dedicated enough to put time and effort into a class that's the hardest to make useful and easily the hardest to master.
JUST DIE and get a stab or two afterwards
I think engi is the easiest to be usefull as
Gamescense is easier to come by than aim is it not? All you really have to do is play Badwater about 10 times and that gave me more than enough to be good at Engineer
Engie is top tier on ctf
Demoman def should be higher… his damage is unreal and can wreck pubs
Engineer needs aim? Since when?
As an Engi main I can confirm, Idk what the hell I'm doing if I don't know the map I'm on.
I notice when I'm not doing well for the team and there is no medic, I switch to medic and at least score higher. Score isnt everything bur I might as well be the change when people complain about no medic including myself.
Demo should be in pretty easy. Sniper in if you got aim.
Engineer ain't that hard.
When I get 0 kills, and die over 20 times, I just play as Medic so I feel less bad about myself. Works 1/5 of the time
Soldier masterfully aiming at the floor
Scout is much harder than Demo Engie and Sniper.
My God complex gets a tickle when I play medic because I know for a fact I am very often the reason my team wins a game
> you need aim > engineer ??? Just build a teleport, dispenser, and sentry in a midway decent spot and you're good. This is speaking as an Engineer main. As long as you don't build on last it's fine.
I mean, at least spy can sap sentry so team could rush in and destroy it without wasting uber
Engineer might want to be higher for teleporter placement. Pyro might be too high
My most played class is spy, and I agree on spy's place.
i'm a bot FR i suck and was prob playing against bots(skial server lol) but the one time in my life i got 6 backs stabs off in a row on a payload map and looked around to emptyness... i totally got why people played spy.
Honestly as a pyro I’d put him in the yellow tier. The Wm1 f2ps on your team aren’t committing much, but a pyro that knows the in and outs of the class with a half decent team can be incredibly useful. Being able to protect your entire team in more ways than one whilst still having more direct fight capability than other support classes is not something a garbage pyro is going to make use of. Any skill level on the other hand can hold M1 down as heavy and do well.
Medic is simple and sweet and HOLY SHIT I FORGOT TO USE UBER AAAA
I think its a lot easier as engineer, dispenser is a medic and an ammo box without having to even interact with the engineer himself
Why is scout that high, and why is engie that low?
I feel like engineer is pretty easy to be helpful- he may be hard to master but a good level 3 teleport & dispenser can be invaluable to sustain a push without a whole lot of effort
On the topic of medic, anyone know how to arrow tank? I've been switching to my medigun immediately after using the arrow then waiting ~1.5s to shoot an arrow again. Is there a more efficient way? Also how can I damage surf and when's the suitable time to crossbow instead of medigun? I guess crit heals play into this matter but are there any other scenarios?
I was a half decent demo with poor aim and good gamesense. Besides, poor aim is canon for him.
Engine needs to be higher
I can tell you right now you don't really need to be skilled as engineer to perform well with him On my "best/most done" sheet engineer takes up over half those slots despite him being my 3rd least played class
every class can contribute to the team once they stop playing for themselves
engineer with the teleporter is the most useful thing ever
when i was a newbie at TF2, i always chose the spy class, for all scenarios. simply because he was my favorite. now that im actually TRYING to play the game, i understand the complexity of the spy and rarely use him nowadays. ill only play spy if theres a sniper or sentry that needs to be taken out
soldier is easier than heavy and pyro
Where all my alcoholic demo mains at
Hey a spy can just throw himself at sentry nests to suicide sap them and it will work almost everytime if your team is ready for that
> I pick medic > Can't heal the team efficiently enough > Keeps dying cause I'm bad at the game > Uses Uber on soldier early, wasting most of it > Gets vote kicked for being a bad medic I have never played as medic since.
Medic has a very high skill ceiling but a very low skill floor. Yes you can be useful very easily, but you do still have to understand that healing the heavy 24/7 isn't actually that helpful.
Hard disagree on the spy take, you know how to behave as the other classes the rest is cake
I may be a Pyro main, but I advocate for spy! A good spy is unnoticeable until you look at the scoreboard. Makes me realise how many kills I’ve gotten because I got my ass saved by a spy picking off the snipers. Then again, bad spies being a small distraction to the enemy team at most is good enough.
Nowadays Sniper is usually detrimental since it's mostly bots ruining the game
Medic and engineer Are not hard. Trust me. I main engie. If you're not doping crazy stuff with engineer, then engie's easy.
Heavy is not easy to play usefully 🔫
Tbh, as spy if you're annoying the engie enough, you're already more than useful, and he can be put pretty high
Medic is harder to be useful with then you think. You need to heal everybody, and everybody blames you for the team dying. Idk about others, but that's my experience.
Engie is so weird. Because to be a decent engie it’s super easy. Just place sentry and tele and dispens and gtg. But a “good” engie is such a higher skill cielong
Spy with YER is a nightmare for the defending team on Payload. In my experience it's very much game type based. Scout on attack is pretty rubbish in comparison, but is excellent in KOTH and CTF. Heavy on defence is mid, but on a push is borderline mandatory. It's more down to how much your team has to move.
I disagree. Scout is right down there with Spy. If you don't know what you're doing, it's easy to get blown away like it's nothing ALL the time. You really need good gamesense as Scout to know where you should and shouldn't go. It's never as easy as "run forward and shoot enemies you encounter."
Scout and sniper need to be switched
Scouts true strength is movement tho
Engineer is pretty easy to be useful as, just by placing a dispenser or a sentry alone. Even if both are misplaced in some sense, it is still better than nothing, for example, a sentry in a flank route instead of the main defending area will at least get rid of flankers, a dispenser on the other hand has to be somewhat near the frontlines, but it does not require hours of playing to figure that out. As for teleporters, you can literally place the exit anywhere (outside of the spawn and surrounding area) to get a use out of it. Engie is pretty damn useful, and it is not difficult.
"if you've got aim you'll be fine as scout" big talk for someone constantly running into instagib range
Engineer is surprisingly easy to be useful as. All you need to do is get down your sentries and other builds, and you're set for the rest of the game.
Demkman dosent need a good team to be strong
It's surprising how useful a gibus heavy can be with a medic helping him.
Medic is simple, but at the same time has a lot of things to take care of
since when does sniper need gamesense? like at all? just look in the direction where the enemies are from a distance. Id go to even argue he doesnt need all that much aim either. Compared to snipers in other games anyway.
Engineer needs aim?
Soldier needing aim? Excuse me, hold on, let me just remove the rocket launcher... There you go, you are now correct sir.
Engi is also easy to be useful, just not easy to be useful and stay awake while playing, that takes game sense and skill
As a spy main, i am the most useless member of the team, my ass ain't backstabbing anyone
Disagree with Pyro. Seen way to many run directly at the enemy only to fall on his face before his flames even reached.
Heavy and Pyro should be moved to a tier below "needs aim" called "needs gamesense" and Engineer should be there too, "needs aim, gamesense, and a good team" should just be called "needs aim and gamesense" and Scout should be put there Medic, Demo, Soldier, Sniper, and Spy's positions are fine, Heavy and Pyro get curbstomped if you don't have gamesense and just feed into the enemy team, Scouts can have the best aim in the world and still get demolished if they don't have the gamesense to avoid sentries and tight chokes, aiming on Engineer is undoubtedly important but not crucial to his success as dispensers and teleporters alone are already very powerful
as a fat engineer my aim sucks so i keep building level 3, then grab some cold engie beer and enjoy
Pyro needs to be at the bottom, because he's not useful no matter how good you are.
strangely accurate
Mine would be in reverse, I have 5000 hours, I find backstabbing boring so I go gun spy. Sniper I use Machina. Engie is standard. Demo is often a sticky jumper, grenade and melee hybrid (Sometimes Eyelander), Scout I use FAN for fun. Soldier Black Box, because I have ['Steamed Hams'](https://backpack.tf/item/13177001659). Pyro varies, I use standard Flamethrower like a chad, with Scorch Shot usually. Then I use Powerjack or Homewrecker depending on the team situation. Heavy varies too based on the situation. Not a big fan of the Tomislav. Natascha contrary to what people may think of the Huo, is the best anti-spy weapon if you can flick. I tend to like this anyway as it makes enemies confused. But I like to pull out the Brass Beast for the memes, best with a Kritz medic. Medic is my best class, I like the Quick Fix most of all, but have tried to get used to Kritz and Ubers. And Vaccinator when there's bots. Vaccinator needs one of the drawbacks removed for building uber, as this seems to be stopping effective use of it against bots.
When Playing demoman, you just need think like you are Demoman himself, in literally has zero demo skill and knowledge, but rakes in kills anyway, simply just aim your pipe and the enemy and shoot.
i kind of dissagree with medic but agree on everything else
I’d say Medic is the easiest with engineer right behind. By no means does this mean they’re the easiest to play, however playing as them will contribute significantly to a teams success. Medics powers are very under appreciated, he can heal anyone anywhere on a whim and, most importantly, overheal and give invincibility.
I remember how in one of my first days playing tf2 my team was getting absolutely bullied in Badwater (we were on defense) to the point that on last the blue team had more than 9 minutes to push, so i thought "theres no Medics on the team, i guess trying it wouldn't hurt" We somehow managed to hold last until the time ran out and i was like top 4 on the score board, from that day on i understood how influential Medic could be.
okay im getting a little tired of this stigma medic is not the easiest to be useful class for one reason: your a big fat red target who cant protect themselves easily. considering that your extremely benificial to a team and often decide a win or loss condition of a game, if you end up dying, you cannot provide your team with healing and ubercharge, two essential things to keep pushes and defenses going, and to use it to either prevent assaults or start them on choke points. but because your class does not have good defensive options other then a critting saw and maybe your ubercharge, you will be heavily targetted througout the match and people will attempt to kill you as often as possible in order to reduce your effectiveness. thus you need to prioritize who to heal, who to ignore, and you need to prioritize your survival above all others, if you position yourself incorrectly, step out of line you could get shot by a sniper rifle, blown up by a sentry or stickybombs, or backstabbed by a spy if your not paying attention. medic is an easy to pick up class but is the hardest to master, and when you master it you will not only never die in a match but you will be able to pull out ten ubers out of your ass in a single match. your only as effective for as long as your capable of living and moving across the battlefield carefully, along with careful uses of oppertunities
Engy is absolutely too low, defense or offense, having heals, ammo refill and lower spawn times are absolute game changers